Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
On 2021-05-24 08:11:58 quil...@riseup.net wrote: > I doubt that a sight impairment issue can be solved by a window manager > or by graphics. What I think that a computer which is friendly to blind > users should do is get information (local or external) and interpret it > in braile or in sound. The input side is quite solved, as of nowadays. > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss At least on Unix-type systems, the basic input and display functions are both managed by the X Windows subsystem, or its up-and-coming replacement. Leslie -- ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
* quil...@riseup.net [2021-05-24 16:12]: > I doubt that a sight impairment issue can be solved by a window manager > or by graphics. What I think that a computer which is friendly to blind > users should do is get information (local or external) and interpret it > in braile or in sound. The input side is quite solved, as of > nowadays. Those applications have to be developed. I am all for that development, but I do not have resources to do it myself. I can make my program here talk and give information to user, in fact I think my dynamic knowledge repository can be easier used by blind people then the common software as browsing withing information is so straightforward. There are countries, organizations, etc, they promote and support accessibility, so they shall put funds and organize projects and people will make it. Emacs is supporting both console and GUI, so it works anyhow. In the same way both console and GUI could already have its OS built-in readers and displays that help accessibility. I don't think that should be problem of high level programmer. It is problem on the OS level, if Linux/BSD/other free kernel does not have accessibility features that is the place to start. Text as fundamental element should not be on higher level, it should always be "text" even if displayed in different fonts or by different graphics, or by different window management system. If it is displayed by Wayland or by X Window system, it should go through kernel api that would process that text. If all the text is processed by the base system then it becomes easier to implement OS based interfaces. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
I doubt that a sight impairment issue can be solved by a window manager or by graphics. What I think that a computer which is friendly to blind users should do is get information (local or external) and interpret it in braile or in sound. The input side is quite solved, as of nowadays. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
* Dennis Payne [2021-05-08 21:40]: > On Sat, 2021-05-08 at 20:52 +0300, Jean Louis wrote: > > * Dennis Payne [2021-05-08 19:20]: > > > Connecting at a lower level would probably give worse results. For > > > Gnome software for example, I don't believe they write text using > > > the X > > > Windows functions. Instead they handle that themselves and send the > > > image result to X. Additionally X Windows is generally on the way > > > out > > > with Wayland being the new thing. > > > > I get it. > > > > But I don't think that blind users would like to switch to bleeding > > edge software. > > RHEL, Fedora, and Ubuntu use Wayland right now. X Windows is basically > in maintenance mode. The proposal I was referencing suggested moving > the accessibility layer lower in the X windows stack. If you started > working on that now, it probably wouldn't matter because X Windows will > have a small market share. (If it even worked which as I said is > unlikely because of the way libraries make use of X Windows.) > > But if you think you can do better, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I > just don't think Wayland is bleeding edge anymore. Maybe I used wrong word, I use X.org not the original X Window System. I fully understand your proposal, I wish it could be so how you explained it. I would bring it even more down to underlying functions in the kernel as well. Speech system should be embedded fundamentally. Anything that is displayed on the screen should have capability to be spoken out, including kernel messages, just anything. Just any output of text should have possibility to be tracked by the operating system so that speech functions may be enabled or disabled. A screen reader should not be just an application, it should be fundamental part of the operating system with the API so that various other software may re-use the text. As there is huge software there is no standard that I know how OS should be defined in the terms of accessibility. I think that both text readers and speech recognition should be built-in. RHEL, Fedora and Ubuntu are not fully free operating systems, so that is first thing that I look upon when choosing about them. When contributing, first is to contribtue to free software distributions as here listed: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html From: https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html , | Ubuntu maintains specific repositories of nonfree software, and | Canonical expressly promotes and recommends nonfree software under the | Ubuntu name in some of their distribution channels. Ubuntu offers the | option to install only free packages, which means it also offers the | option to install nonfree packages too. In addition, the version of | Linux, the kernel, included in Ubuntu contains firmware blobs. ` -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
On Sat, 2021-05-08 at 20:52 +0300, Jean Louis wrote: > * Dennis Payne [2021-05-08 19:20]: > > Connecting at a lower level would probably give worse results. For > > Gnome software for example, I don't believe they write text using > > the X > > Windows functions. Instead they handle that themselves and send the > > image result to X. Additionally X Windows is generally on the way > > out > > with Wayland being the new thing. > > I get it. > > But I don't think that blind users would like to switch to bleeding > edge software. RHEL, Fedora, and Ubuntu use Wayland right now. X Windows is basically in maintenance mode. The proposal I was referencing suggested moving the accessibility layer lower in the X windows stack. If you started working on that now, it probably wouldn't matter because X Windows will have a small market share. (If it even worked which as I said is unlikely because of the way libraries make use of X Windows.) But if you think you can do better, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I just don't think Wayland is bleeding edge anymore. -- Dennis Payne du...@identicalsoftware.com https://social.freegamedev.net/channel/dulsi ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
* Dennis Payne [2021-05-08 19:20]: > Connecting at a lower level would probably give worse results. For > Gnome software for example, I don't believe they write text using the X > Windows functions. Instead they handle that themselves and send the > image result to X. Additionally X Windows is generally on the way out > with Wayland being the new thing. I get it. But I don't think that blind users would like to switch to bleeding edge software. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
* Arthur Torrey [2021-05-07 23:42]: > As a sighted user I don't really feel competent to make a list - as > doing so would be similar to the issues I have with all the various > engineering / design student projects that attempt to create a > 'better' wheelchair without ever really understanding the day to day > needs of actually having to live in a chair... This usually results > in a chair that "solves" whatever they see as a 'problem' but is all > but unusable for doing anything else OK. That means that there is no particular issue to verify or focus. There are many references to accessibility and I know that Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre speaks in console from the start, if user wish to have it so. Many Gnome and other X applications have accessibility features, I know that since long time. But I am not impaired, you are not impaired, you don't know what would be wrong, I don't know what would be wrong. > That said, what *I* would think important is a screen reader that > could read any text being displayed on the screen as a minimum... OK but did you verify if such already exists? I know that it exists, and I have been hearing them. I have already mentioned something I have experienced. Here is a collection of hyperlinks, straight from my Hyperscope dynamic knowledge repository regarding screen readers and accessibility on GNU/Linux. Debian Accessibility Console screen readers packages https://blends.debian.org/accessibility/tasks/console YASR home page http://yasr.sourceforge.net/ BigBlueButton - Free Software Directory https://directory.fsf.org/wiki/BigBlueButton Attic/LSR - GNOME Wiki! https://wiki.gnome.org/Attic/LSR Development/Tutorials/Accessibility/Screen Reader Setup - KDE TechBase https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility/Screen_Reader_Setup Accessibility - KDE UserBase Wiki https://userbase.kde.org/Accessibility Orca Screen Reader https://help.gnome.org/users/orca/stable/ Text to Speech on GNU/Linux Part 3: Orca on KDE https://www.ubuntubuzz.com/2018/12/text-to-speech-on-gnulinux-part-3-orca-on-kde.html Screen Readers | American Foundation for the Blind https://www.afb.org/blindness-and-low-vision/using-technology/assistive-technology-products/screen-readers fenrir-screenreader · PyPI https://pypi.org/project/fenrir-screenreader/ Announcing Tdsr: A Command Line Screen Reader For Macintosh And GNU/Linux | AppleVis https://www.applevis.com/blog/announcing-tdsr-command-line-screen-reader-macintosh-and-gnulinux As if there is no particular problem that you have, then there are particular solutions that exists. So your problem should be in contradiction to some of the already present solutions. On this Parabola GNU/Linux-libre system there are two applications, one is Orca, already mentioned above, and Speakup: The Speakup Project http://linux-speakup.org/ > A very useful addition would be some sort of navigation assistant > that could find the menu items on the page and just read those. We can research of those applications already do something like that. > A 'nice to have' but probably not realistically possible would be > some sort of AI that could recognize enough graphics to read things > like 'photos of text' and (much harder) do descriptive audio > captioning on pictures I find that quite possible, as there exists such AI. I know there is face recognition as free software: https://www.goodfirms.co/blog/best-free-open-source-face-detection-software-solutions I could think of reading programmatically whole screen, finding boundaries and recognizing parts of the screen. Please explore the above software and see if it can help. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
Connecting at a lower level would probably give worse results. For Gnome software for example, I don't believe they write text using the X Windows functions. Instead they handle that themselves and send the image result to X. Additionally X Windows is generally on the way out with Wayland being the new thing. On Thu, 2021-05-06 at 21:57 -0400, Arthur Torrey wrote: > Jean Louis pointed at Vinux - which I had found and looked to me like > a near-dead project - The home page is non-https, and is skeletal at > best... The Wiki is talking about the 'latest version' as of 2015, > and while it says the last update was in 2019, the download site > doesn't connect (Firefox times out w/ can't find site error) and > there have only been about 2 changes to the wiki since it was created > in 2013 according to it's history page... > > I found a few other low vision projects and they seemed similarly > moribund. I asked on another site and the response I got was either > similar pointers to seemingly dead projects, or that because most of > the mainstream distros now have some level of accessibility built in, > the low-vision / blind specific projects have mostly died. > > As a non-programmer, who has listened to a few presentations at > Libre-Planet and read articles here and there I can't contribute any > code, but as a 'partly baked idea' my thought about how it might be > possible to do a better job on accessibility might be to try and tap > into the system at a much earlier level > > What would happen if instead of trying to put accessibility in at the > window manager (KDE / Gnome / etc.) level, there was instead an X- > Windows driver that provided input to a screen-reader as a "display > type"? How about having an "accessible keyboard" option (probably as > an intermediate layer between the usual keyboard choices and the rest > of the system as that would make it easy to use any desired key- > mapping underneath it?) > > It seems to me that the closer the accessibility options are to the > "bare metal hardware" the less they would be relying on window > managers / programs to do the "right thing", and the more universally > consistent they would be. > > Possibly less universal, but still coming in at a fairly low level, > what if there was an "accessible" option for choosing the > internationalization when setting up? > > As I said this may be something that wouldn't work for reasons that > are above my pay-grade to understand, but perhaps might just be > something that hadn't been considered. > > -- > Arthur Torrey - > --- > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
As a sighted user I don't really feel competent to make a list - as doing so would be similar to the issues I have with all the various engineering / design student projects that attempt to create a 'better' wheelchair without ever really understanding the day to day needs of actually having to live in a chair... This usually results in a chair that "solves" whatever they see as a 'problem' but is all but unusable for doing anything else That said, what *I* would think important is a screen reader that could read any text being displayed on the screen as a minimum... A very useful addition would be some sort of navigation assistant that could find the menu items on the page and just read those. A 'nice to have' but probably not realistically possible would be some sort of AI that could recognize enough graphics to read things like 'photos of text' and (much harder) do descriptive audio captioning on pictures My S.O., Mary-Anne has recently become legally blind, she still has some sight but not a lot. Her current main machine is a Fruit co. laptop, which I have set up a 24" monitor to use as a larger display. As her 'seeing eye person' I often have to work with her to deal with things like paying bills and navigating other sites... In order to see the screen she has to blow up typical text (like this) to around 24-36 point, and even with a 24" monitor that results in looking at a site through what amounts to a porthole... Just navigating around a banking site is painful due to her needing to constantly be scrolling around the page. The fruit co. O/S does have a screen reader but it either doesn't help much or she hasn't learned enough about how to use it to best advantage. (could easily be the latter) ART -- Arthur Torrey - --- > On 05/07/2021 4:09 AM Jean Louis wrote: > > > * Arthur Torrey [2021-05-07 04:58]: > > Jean Louis pointed at Vinux - which I had found and looked to me > > like a near-dead project - The home page is non-https, and is > > skeletal at best... The Wiki is talking about the 'latest version' > > as of 2015, and while it says the last update was in 2019, the > > download site doesn't connect (Firefox times out w/ can't find site > > error) and there have only been about 2 changes to the wiki since it > > was created in 2013 according to it's history page... > > Make a list of items that are to you, by your opinion, most important > for blind user, and send it. > > > > > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
* Arthur Torrey [2021-05-07 04:58]: > Jean Louis pointed at Vinux - which I had found and looked to me > like a near-dead project - The home page is non-https, and is > skeletal at best... The Wiki is talking about the 'latest version' > as of 2015, and while it says the last update was in 2019, the > download site doesn't connect (Firefox times out w/ can't find site > error) and there have only been about 2 changes to the wiki since it > was created in 2013 according to it's history page... Make a list of items that are to you, by your opinion, most important for blind user, and send it. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
Jean Louis pointed at Vinux - which I had found and looked to me like a near-dead project - The home page is non-https, and is skeletal at best... The Wiki is talking about the 'latest version' as of 2015, and while it says the last update was in 2019, the download site doesn't connect (Firefox times out w/ can't find site error) and there have only been about 2 changes to the wiki since it was created in 2013 according to it's history page... I found a few other low vision projects and they seemed similarly moribund. I asked on another site and the response I got was either similar pointers to seemingly dead projects, or that because most of the mainstream distros now have some level of accessibility built in, the low-vision / blind specific projects have mostly died. As a non-programmer, who has listened to a few presentations at Libre-Planet and read articles here and there I can't contribute any code, but as a 'partly baked idea' my thought about how it might be possible to do a better job on accessibility might be to try and tap into the system at a much earlier level What would happen if instead of trying to put accessibility in at the window manager (KDE / Gnome / etc.) level, there was instead an X-Windows driver that provided input to a screen-reader as a "display type"? How about having an "accessible keyboard" option (probably as an intermediate layer between the usual keyboard choices and the rest of the system as that would make it easy to use any desired key-mapping underneath it?) It seems to me that the closer the accessibility options are to the "bare metal hardware" the less they would be relying on window managers / programs to do the "right thing", and the more universally consistent they would be. Possibly less universal, but still coming in at a fairly low level, what if there was an "accessible" option for choosing the internationalization when setting up? As I said this may be something that wouldn't work for reasons that are above my pay-grade to understand, but perhaps might just be something that hadn't been considered. -- Arthur Torrey - --- ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
> > "text spreadsheet" calculator using awk, tsort and bc/calc that allows > > me to mark up the calculations on the forms and then compute the > > dependencies, generate calculations and generate the results as an > > output text file. We are s late with speech recognition. Calculations at least should be handled by pure speech. I remember some 25 years ago watching speech recognition on Windows, it worked well, after some training. We need speech recognition scripting. Then it becomes easy to provide a lot of accessible programs. Top ten here: https://www.ubuntupit.com/best-open-source-speech-recognition-tools-for-linux/ I really need one scriptable speech recognition, that I can run function, invoke recognition and get the result with certainty. If I have such function I can include it in the software I am developing now. RCD Notes for Emacs https://hyperscope.link/3/7/1/5/5/RCD-Notes-for-Emacs-37155.html Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
* Arthur Torrey [2021-04-29 05:21]: > I sort of agree, but at the same time, it appears to me that the > FLOSS software world is far less 'disability friendly' than the > fruit company or the other big name OS My S.O has just become > legally blind due to medical issues, and while I've been looking at > what might be available in the way of low-vision setups, I've been > rather underwhelmed... Let us know some particulars as in which area it needs improvement? I cannot know what you mean as I am not currently impacted. Some references on accessibility: Vinux, based on Ubuntu 10.10 Maverick Meerkat, is a complete live Linux distribution optimized for blind and visually impaired users. It bundles screen readers, full-screen magnifiers, built-in support for USB Braille displays, and optimized fonts and colors. http://vinuxproject.org/ The Orca screen reader is the most fully-featured Linux screen reader. It supports multiple speech synthesizers and Braille displays. You need GNOME 2 for Orca to work because there are many glitches in GNOME 3. As GNOME and KDE continue to present moving targets stick with Vinux for best performance and least hassles. http://live.gnome.org/Orca https://wiki.gnome.org/Accessibility https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/16/html/Accessibility_Guide/index.html Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
* Paul Sutton [2021-05-06 10:51]: > One problem is that I think there are now lots of patents on speech > recognition. Does this make using speech recognition harder to implement, > we have text to speech too, could that be implemented at the UI level, even > in menus or dialogue boxes. The way to go is not to put attention on patents, just as written in the Free System Distribution Guidelines https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html where it says: , | Patents | | It is effectively impossible for free software developers and | distributors to know whether or not a given piece of software | infringes any patents: there are too many of them, they vary from | country to country, they're often worded so as to make it hard to tell | what they do or don't cover, and it isn't easy to tell which ones are | valid. Therefore, we don't generally ask free system distributions to | exclude software because of possible threats from patents. On the | other hand, we also don't object if a distributor chooses to omit some | software in order to avoid patent risk. ` Consider that if ANY patent is registered, it most probably is not registered in all countries. Distributions may distribute from various countries. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
On 06/05/2021 08:34, Jean Louis wrote: "text spreadsheet" calculator using awk, tsort and bc/calc that allows me to mark up the calculations on the forms and then compute the dependencies, generate calculations and generate the results as an output text file. We are s late with speech recognition. Calculations at least should be handled by pure speech. I remember some 25 years ago watching speech recognition on Windows, it worked well, after some training. We need speech recognition scripting. Then it becomes easy to provide a lot of accessible programs. Top ten here: https://www.ubuntupit.com/best-open-source-speech-recognition-tools-for-linux/ I really need one scriptable speech recognition, that I can run function, invoke recognition and get the result with certainty. If I have such function I can include it in the software I am developing now. RCD Notes for Emacs https://hyperscope.link/3/7/1/5/5/RCD-Notes-for-Emacs-37155.html One problem is that I think there are now lots of patents on speech recognition. Does this make using speech recognition harder to implement, we have text to speech too, could that be implemented at the UI level, even in menus or dialogue boxes. Paul Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ -- -- Paul Sutton, Cert Cont Sci (Open) https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/ OpenPGP : 4350 91C4 C8FB 681B 23A6 7944 8EA9 1B51 E27E 3D99 Pronoun : him/his/he OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
On 06/05/2021 07:11, Greg Knittl wrote: Hi Ali, I'm sighted and have plenty of trouble interacting with the world through my computer. I can't imagine how I would manage to even get as far as going through all the steps to convert pdfs to text if I were blind. My hat is off to you. As a sighted user trying to do my income taxes on Linux in Canada, I cannot rely on the etext forms for the blind to be up to date. Similar to you, I convert the PDF tax forms to text. This year I have written a "text spreadsheet" calculator using awk, tsort and bc/calc that allows me to mark up the calculations on the forms and then compute the dependencies, generate calculations and generate the results as an output text file. I note the following limitations of converting PDF to text: 1/ I'm unable to convert XFA PDFs to text (fortunately only Ontario provincial forms, not federal income tax forms so far) 2/ The fine points of the PDF layout seem to get mangled. For example the Canadian tax forms use indentation to show nested calculations and I find that harder to see on the text version of the PDF. In general the etext versions of the tax forms are more sequential, which is easier for me as a sighted user to program against. 3/ Any calculations built into the PDF are lost. I think my "text spreadsheet" demonstrates that it is perfectly possible to mark up calculation steps on text forms sufficiently precisely to allow programs to calculate them. I would think it should be possible to generate a common specification for embedding calculations into text files, allowing programs to be written for this. I would be interested to know whether it might also be of interest to blind users. Seems to me that the blind shouldn't have to put up with any of these 3 limitations and various laws may, in theory, give them the clout to enforce equality. This would also benefit me as a sighted user on Linux. This is a more specific example of potential synergy between Linux and users with disabilities. thanks, Greg I agree with you here, but should it require new laws to make developers do the right thing and make things accessible, there is a marketing term UPS (Unique Selling Point) here, if we can make software accessible to everyone then that counts in our favour, it is the 'right' thing to do, and yes it is difficult, challenging etc, but surely people are up for the challenge. It shows we need more diversity in software development processes, but also that developers need to be more in tune with their users, even if this is at the cost of extra features. I know this is difficult, we need to see things from a view point of a user, (who may not be an expert with computers) I do still feel that computing is 'elitist' we need to learn to engage with users. Even with a degree of expertise we should not need that to do basic everyday or essential tasks. I can't comment on the tax forms, but one thing that may help here is to contact the federal tax office and praise them for getting it right and ask if they can encourage others (in this case Ontario) to follow suit in terms of accessibility. Show a good example of what works, as a model of this. Lets keep this discussion going, but turn it in to proper action to ensure everyone can access digital services fully. Hope this helps Paul OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
Hi Ali, I'm sighted and have plenty of trouble interacting with the world through my computer. I can't imagine how I would manage to even get as far as going through all the steps to convert pdfs to text if I were blind. My hat is off to you. As a sighted user trying to do my income taxes on Linux in Canada, I cannot rely on the etext forms for the blind to be up to date. Similar to you, I convert the PDF tax forms to text. This year I have written a "text spreadsheet" calculator using awk, tsort and bc/calc that allows me to mark up the calculations on the forms and then compute the dependencies, generate calculations and generate the results as an output text file. I note the following limitations of converting PDF to text: 1/ I'm unable to convert XFA PDFs to text (fortunately only Ontario provincial forms, not federal income tax forms so far) 2/ The fine points of the PDF layout seem to get mangled. For example the Canadian tax forms use indentation to show nested calculations and I find that harder to see on the text version of the PDF. In general the etext versions of the tax forms are more sequential, which is easier for me as a sighted user to program against. 3/ Any calculations built into the PDF are lost. I think my "text spreadsheet" demonstrates that it is perfectly possible to mark up calculation steps on text forms sufficiently precisely to allow programs to calculate them. I would think it should be possible to generate a common specification for embedding calculations into text files, allowing programs to be written for this. I would be interested to know whether it might also be of interest to blind users. Seems to me that the blind shouldn't have to put up with any of these 3 limitations and various laws may, in theory, give them the clout to enforce equality. This would also benefit me as a sighted user on Linux. This is a more specific example of potential synergy between Linux and users with disabilities. thanks, Greg On 2021-05-04 2:43 p.m., alimiracle wrote: hi I'm a blind person When I want to read the pdf file I converting it to a text file have fun and be free ali miracle على 4/27/2021 11:34 AM، كتب Greg Knittl: fyi. pdf accessibility issues may be bigger than just XFA... https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat/anyone-know-how-a-blind-person-is-supposed-to-create-or-edit-a-pdf-when-acrobat-isn-t-screen-reader/m-p/10186392?search-action-id=167355598977=10186392 I see enormous convergence of interest between Linux and the disabled as we are both 2 small and often overlooked minorities. The disabled may have more formal legal rights than regular Linux users that we can piggyback on... Greg ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
gher all the time. I got my Ph.D. in computer science (computer vision) during the 1990s. At the time I built 'gcc', 'emacs', and a host of other GNU sofware, plus TeX, from source for the SGI workstations I was using. I've written a considerable amount of C/C++ code both for my dissertation and in industry. And yet, every time I try to fix Sticky Keys I feel like I've got a hold of the proverbial end of the ball of yarn. :( > > It seems like a lot of the lower level of accessibility in GNU/Linux > seems to be a combination of a (somewhat understandable) lack of > 'itch that needs scratching' among mostly able bodied developers, Indeed. Every time my current "fix" for Sticky Keys stops working I first search for solutions on The Internet. And low and behold, the first page or two of results are _users_ who want to know how to permanently _disable_ some accessibility feature, with not a few wondering why they're even available at all (i.e. they feel they shouldn't be there _at_all_ unless specifically requested during installation or some such). > and the wide range of interfaces / API's / not sure what to call > them that exist in the FLOSS world. Yummm. As I alluded to above, this is even affecting something as "simple" as Sticky Keys. It's been a long time since I could be reasonably certain one "fix" would work for all DEs, and, of course the DE and the Linux console have always been two different worlds. However, ... > While usually this diversity is a strength, IMHO it is a problem > when trying to come up w/ a consistent UI that works w/ every > application. OTOH the fruit co's "One Way to Do Things" seems to > make it easier to design an accessible UI that works w/ everything, > and then focus on making it better ... I'm not sure how to weigh in on this one. Having people implement different approaches, then finding out what works and what doesn't should be a Good Thing. But it seems to me that the second part of that "equation" never gets evaluated. I could offer speculation as to why, but it's already taken me about 3 hours to peck out this reply so I'll leave that for others, or another "thread", or something. > I don't know what the solution is, I just wish there was one. [... rest of original below ...] Ditto. Cheers Leland -- --- Leland C. Best | Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is lcbpub...@gmail.com | something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. | -- Isaac Asimov --------------- [...] ex-Gooserider -- Arthur Torrey - --- > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:34:30 -0400 > From: Greg Knittl > To: Jean Louis > Cc: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > Subject: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > fyi. pdf accessibility issues may be bigger than just XFA... > > > https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat/anyone-know-how-a-blind-person-is-supposed-to-create-or-edit-a-pdf-when-acrobat-isn-t-screen-reader/m-p/10186392?search-action-id=167355598977=10186392 > > I see enormous convergence of interest between Linux and the > disabled as > we are both 2 small and often overlooked minorities. The disabled > may > have more formal legal rights than regular Linux users that we can > piggyback on... > > Greg ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
hi I'm a blind person When I want to read the pdf file I converting it to a text file have fun and be free ali miracle على 4/27/2021 11:34 AM، كتب Greg Knittl: fyi. pdf accessibility issues may be bigger than just XFA... https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat/anyone-know-how-a-blind-person-is-supposed-to-create-or-edit-a-pdf-when-acrobat-isn-t-screen-reader/m-p/10186392?search-action-id=167355598977=10186392 I see enormous convergence of interest between Linux and the disabled as we are both 2 small and often overlooked minorities. The disabled may have more formal legal rights than regular Linux users that we can piggyback on... Greg ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
Hi Arthur, I'm not blind or disabled myself. I do note that the Canada Revenue Agency (similar to US IRS) makes tax forms available in etext. e.g. https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/cra-arc/formspubs/pbg/5006-r/5006-r-20e.txt I think their theory is that these forms are more likely to be supported by screen readers since they are just plain text. Is it possible that the command line and fundamental focus on text files in Linux could be the standard interface you are looking for? In the case of tax forms what's good for the blind is also good for me. The forms for the blind are laid out more sequentially and are easier to program against as well as having no PDF issues. I did actually submit my taxes on etext forms for the blind one year. Then I spent the rest of the year submitting adjustments to correct all the input errors, which makes me wonder if anyone else has ever filed on these forms... thanks, Greg On 2021-04-28 10:20 p.m., Arthur Torrey wrote: (yeah! something other than flagellating RMS's deceased equine) I sort of agree, but at the same time, it appears to me that the FLOSS software world is far less 'disability friendly' than the fruit company or the other big name OS My S.O has just become legally blind due to medical issues, and while I've been looking at what might be available in the way of low-vision setups, I've been rather underwhelmed... It seems every resource person she has heard from is pointing at the fruit company products as being most 'low vision friendly'. As a paraplegic I have minimal (no) need for accessibility stuff on my computers, but when I look at what the quads I know who need more adaptive setups are also using fruit machines almost entirely. I'm not a programmer of anything more complex than an Arduino, so not a lot I can do to fix things personally. It seems like a lot of the lower level of accessibility in GNU/Linux seems to be a combination of a (somewhat understandable) lack of 'itch that needs scratching' among mostly able bodied developers, and the wide range of interfaces / API's / not sure what to call them that exist in the FLOSS world. While usually this diversity is a strength, IMHO it is a problem when trying to come up w/ a consistent UI that works w/ every application. OTOH the fruit co's "One Way to Do Things" seems to make it easier to design an accessible UI that works w/ everything, and then focus on making it better I don't know what the solution is, I just wish there was one. ex-Gooserider -- Arthur Torrey - --- Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:34:30 -0400 From: Greg Knittl To: Jean Louis Cc: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org Subject: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed fyi. pdf accessibility issues may be bigger than just XFA... https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat/anyone-know-how-a-blind-person-is-supposed-to-create-or-edit-a-pdf-when-acrobat-isn-t-screen-reader/m-p/10186392?search-action-id=167355598977=10186392 I see enormous convergence of interest between Linux and the disabled as we are both 2 small and often overlooked minorities. The disabled may have more formal legal rights than regular Linux users that we can piggyback on... Greg ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
RE: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
(yeah! something other than flagellating RMS's deceased equine) I sort of agree, but at the same time, it appears to me that the FLOSS software world is far less 'disability friendly' than the fruit company or the other big name OS My S.O has just become legally blind due to medical issues, and while I've been looking at what might be available in the way of low-vision setups, I've been rather underwhelmed... It seems every resource person she has heard from is pointing at the fruit company products as being most 'low vision friendly'. As a paraplegic I have minimal (no) need for accessibility stuff on my computers, but when I look at what the quads I know who need more adaptive setups are also using fruit machines almost entirely. I'm not a programmer of anything more complex than an Arduino, so not a lot I can do to fix things personally. It seems like a lot of the lower level of accessibility in GNU/Linux seems to be a combination of a (somewhat understandable) lack of 'itch that needs scratching' among mostly able bodied developers, and the wide range of interfaces / API's / not sure what to call them that exist in the FLOSS world. While usually this diversity is a strength, IMHO it is a problem when trying to come up w/ a consistent UI that works w/ every application. OTOH the fruit co's "One Way to Do Things" seems to make it easier to design an accessible UI that works w/ everything, and then focus on making it better I don't know what the solution is, I just wish there was one. ex-Gooserider -- Arthur Torrey - --- > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:34:30 -0400 > From: Greg Knittl > To: Jean Louis > Cc: libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > Subject: Blind user complaining on Adobe web site > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > fyi. pdf accessibility issues may be bigger than just XFA... > > https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat/anyone-know-how-a-blind-person-is-supposed-to-create-or-edit-a-pdf-when-acrobat-isn-t-screen-reader/m-p/10186392?search-action-id=167355598977=10186392 > > I see enormous convergence of interest between Linux and the disabled as > we are both 2 small and often overlooked minorities. The disabled may > have more formal legal rights than regular Linux users that we can > piggyback on... > > Greg ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Blind user complaining on Adobe web site
fyi. pdf accessibility issues may be bigger than just XFA... https://community.adobe.com/t5/acrobat/anyone-know-how-a-blind-person-is-supposed-to-create-or-edit-a-pdf-when-acrobat-isn-t-screen-reader/m-p/10186392?search-action-id=167355598977=10186392 I see enormous convergence of interest between Linux and the disabled as we are both 2 small and often overlooked minorities. The disabled may have more formal legal rights than regular Linux users that we can piggyback on... Greg ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
