Re: Support RMS
Jean Louis: _ _ _ | |__ __ _ | |__ __ _ | |__ __ _ | '_ \ / _` | | '_ \ / _` | | '_ \ / _` | | | | | (_| | | | | | (_| | | | | | (_| | |_| |_|\__,_| |_| |_|\__,_| |_| |_|\__,_| Yes, humour was the objective. I was trying to inject some into the conversation while trying to convert the insufferable "footnote" to an "endnote"! :-) Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! Support RMS! Add your signature here: [1]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph Let's Link Up: [5]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References Visible links 1. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ 2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 3. http://codeartnow.com/ 4. http://www.abertheid.info/ 5. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ Hidden links: 7. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
And honestly, if y'all can't just drop it then I think we have to escalate it but make it about y'all. That'll be fun. If anyone wants to think cooperatively about post-air-travel libre planet and other software freedom issues intersecting with the climate emergency, that'd be cool. For example. -t On 2021-04-17 22:19, Thomas Lord wrote: THIS IS NOT A LIST FOR SPECULATION ABOUT RMS' OR ANYONE ELSE'S INTERIOR LIFE. CONSIDER THAT THERE IS A REAL VIRTUE IN JUST SHUTTING UP ON SOME TOPICS IN SOME CONTEXTS. (Honestly, my current assumption is that the list is dominated by a few trolls now and ought to just go the way of all things.) -t On 2021-04-17 21:48, Aaron Wolf wrote: On 2021-04-17 8:49 p.m., Alexandre Oliva wrote: On Apr 16, 2021, Aaron Wolf wrote: Like here's one story: I was at LibrePlanet 2014 and RMS was speaking and mentioned offhand how a certain sort of older computer with no disk, they used to joke and called it a dickless computer. Ah, yes, that was exactly the tasteless pun I alluded to the other day. I heard second hand that he had to have someone pull him aside and emphasize the problem before he realized the issue and apologized. Well... Here the recollections diverge. To me, it was quite evident that he realized his own mistake right away. It may have taken someone to pull him aside and advise him to explicitly apologize for it, I'll give you that. But suggesting he didn't realize it by himself fits in perfectly in the pattern of twisting, exaggeration, and false reporting that has led so many to see a false pattern of misbehavior. Oh I had the exact same impression, that he realized the mistake, was 100% sincere in the award and gratitude to the women involved, and that he sincerely wanted to be respectful of everyone. I also have seen him in his political notes *constantly* promote feminism and women's rights over years. But I recall discussing that joke in 2014 that day or maybe it was within the following week, and someone else who was discussing the problem about it told me then the claim that someone had pulled him aside to mention it. I have no idea if they were speculating or not, and I have nothing but their claim to go on. I had certainly assumed he was just self-reflective enough on his own (though I assumed that was because he had many past cases of feedback which he has just been slow to fully shift his habits). I'm not going to even presume what is actually true. I do not know whether or not his apology was entirely independent, I was only in the audience seeing what everyone was seeing. And although I might disagree with Deb in some of her exact tactics in engaging, you might notice that she has not made such accusations. She co-drafted and undersigned the hate letter. Its appendix has plenty of just the sort of accusation you say she did not make. Well, I suppose my charitable-interpretation inclination is consistent. I don't know that she co-drafted the letter, I just see her in the medium-long list of primary co-signers. That itself is troubling enough. The letter is unfair as are the selections of accusations in the letter's appendix. I sincerely respect many of the signers, several of whom I've met in person and some with whom I've had decently long one-on-one discussions at conferences and such. I'm a bit sad, confused, and also maybe still open-minded and curious about how these people could have supported the letter as-is. In my mind, for all these people to have supported that letter, there's got to be more going on than what it superficially appears to be. However, I don't jump to concluding what that might be. Perhaps there are indeed elements of anti-free-software corporate interest in defanging the FSF and RMS. I'm quite skeptical though. Some of the people who signed are among the most ardent free software people I've met. Perhaps there are deeper issues with RMS that are subtle, hard to capture, would *still* not make him evil or anything, but are just hard to express, and so these folks are failing to make it clear to us (and to me, I really am giving them *some* benefit of the doubt for the main reason that most everything else I've heard from these people makes sense to me, their credibility is good in my eyes on *other* topics). Perhaps there's an echo-chamber kind of effect where certain styles of language, certain words (e.g. misogyny) are used in well-meaning social activist circles, and the letter writers are essentially writing with their own echo-chamber in mind as their audience without considering building a wider coalition or consensus. Perhaps they are just all feeling *that* outraged, scared, triggered, exasperated, or similar. And people in that state are predictably likely to exaggerate, take uncharitable interpretations of their targets, and be generally in a state of blame, and it's from that emotional state that the letter comes. To be most
Re: Support RMS
THIS IS NOT A LIST FOR SPECULATION ABOUT RMS' OR ANYONE ELSE'S INTERIOR LIFE. CONSIDER THAT THERE IS A REAL VIRTUE IN JUST SHUTTING UP ON SOME TOPICS IN SOME CONTEXTS. (Honestly, my current assumption is that the list is dominated by a few trolls now and ought to just go the way of all things.) -t On 2021-04-17 21:48, Aaron Wolf wrote: On 2021-04-17 8:49 p.m., Alexandre Oliva wrote: On Apr 16, 2021, Aaron Wolf wrote: Like here's one story: I was at LibrePlanet 2014 and RMS was speaking and mentioned offhand how a certain sort of older computer with no disk, they used to joke and called it a dickless computer. Ah, yes, that was exactly the tasteless pun I alluded to the other day. I heard second hand that he had to have someone pull him aside and emphasize the problem before he realized the issue and apologized. Well... Here the recollections diverge. To me, it was quite evident that he realized his own mistake right away. It may have taken someone to pull him aside and advise him to explicitly apologize for it, I'll give you that. But suggesting he didn't realize it by himself fits in perfectly in the pattern of twisting, exaggeration, and false reporting that has led so many to see a false pattern of misbehavior. Oh I had the exact same impression, that he realized the mistake, was 100% sincere in the award and gratitude to the women involved, and that he sincerely wanted to be respectful of everyone. I also have seen him in his political notes *constantly* promote feminism and women's rights over years. But I recall discussing that joke in 2014 that day or maybe it was within the following week, and someone else who was discussing the problem about it told me then the claim that someone had pulled him aside to mention it. I have no idea if they were speculating or not, and I have nothing but their claim to go on. I had certainly assumed he was just self-reflective enough on his own (though I assumed that was because he had many past cases of feedback which he has just been slow to fully shift his habits). I'm not going to even presume what is actually true. I do not know whether or not his apology was entirely independent, I was only in the audience seeing what everyone was seeing. And although I might disagree with Deb in some of her exact tactics in engaging, you might notice that she has not made such accusations. She co-drafted and undersigned the hate letter. Its appendix has plenty of just the sort of accusation you say she did not make. Well, I suppose my charitable-interpretation inclination is consistent. I don't know that she co-drafted the letter, I just see her in the medium-long list of primary co-signers. That itself is troubling enough. The letter is unfair as are the selections of accusations in the letter's appendix. I sincerely respect many of the signers, several of whom I've met in person and some with whom I've had decently long one-on-one discussions at conferences and such. I'm a bit sad, confused, and also maybe still open-minded and curious about how these people could have supported the letter as-is. In my mind, for all these people to have supported that letter, there's got to be more going on than what it superficially appears to be. However, I don't jump to concluding what that might be. Perhaps there are indeed elements of anti-free-software corporate interest in defanging the FSF and RMS. I'm quite skeptical though. Some of the people who signed are among the most ardent free software people I've met. Perhaps there are deeper issues with RMS that are subtle, hard to capture, would *still* not make him evil or anything, but are just hard to express, and so these folks are failing to make it clear to us (and to me, I really am giving them *some* benefit of the doubt for the main reason that most everything else I've heard from these people makes sense to me, their credibility is good in my eyes on *other* topics). Perhaps there's an echo-chamber kind of effect where certain styles of language, certain words (e.g. misogyny) are used in well-meaning social activist circles, and the letter writers are essentially writing with their own echo-chamber in mind as their audience without considering building a wider coalition or consensus. Perhaps they are just all feeling *that* outraged, scared, triggered, exasperated, or similar. And people in that state are predictably likely to exaggerate, take uncharitable interpretations of their targets, and be generally in a state of blame, and it's from that emotional state that the letter comes. To be most charitable, just maybe they really care about software freedom, really believe that RMS staying in leadership will undermine the cause, and they are engaging from a place of real *fear* as they anticipate losing allies and friends who leave the movement and then see a downward spiral that results in all the worst outcomes for software freedom. Others may disagree with
Re: Support RMS
On 2021-04-17 8:49 p.m., Alexandre Oliva wrote: > On Apr 16, 2021, Aaron Wolf wrote: > >> Like here's one story: I was at LibrePlanet 2014 and RMS was speaking >> and mentioned offhand how a certain sort of older computer with no disk, >> they used to joke and called it a dickless computer. > > Ah, yes, that was exactly the tasteless pun I alluded to the other day. > >> I heard second hand that he had to >> have someone pull him aside and emphasize the problem before he realized >> the issue and apologized. > > Well... Here the recollections diverge. To me, it was quite evident > that he realized his own mistake right away. It may have taken someone > to pull him aside and advise him to explicitly apologize for it, I'll > give you that. But suggesting he didn't realize it by himself fits in > perfectly in the pattern of twisting, exaggeration, and false reporting > that has led so many to see a false pattern of misbehavior. > Oh I had the exact same impression, that he realized the mistake, was 100% sincere in the award and gratitude to the women involved, and that he sincerely wanted to be respectful of everyone. I also have seen him in his political notes *constantly* promote feminism and women's rights over years. But I recall discussing that joke in 2014 that day or maybe it was within the following week, and someone else who was discussing the problem about it told me then the claim that someone had pulled him aside to mention it. I have no idea if they were speculating or not, and I have nothing but their claim to go on. I had certainly assumed he was just self-reflective enough on his own (though I assumed that was because he had many past cases of feedback which he has just been slow to fully shift his habits). I'm not going to even presume what is actually true. I do not know whether or not his apology was entirely independent, I was only in the audience seeing what everyone was seeing. > >> And although I might disagree with Deb in some of her exact tactics in >> engaging, you might notice that she has not made such accusations. > > She co-drafted and undersigned the hate letter. Its appendix has plenty > of just the sort of accusation you say she did not make. Well, I suppose my charitable-interpretation inclination is consistent. I don't know that she co-drafted the letter, I just see her in the medium-long list of primary co-signers. That itself is troubling enough. The letter is unfair as are the selections of accusations in the letter's appendix. I sincerely respect many of the signers, several of whom I've met in person and some with whom I've had decently long one-on-one discussions at conferences and such. I'm a bit sad, confused, and also maybe still open-minded and curious about how these people could have supported the letter as-is. In my mind, for all these people to have supported that letter, there's got to be more going on than what it superficially appears to be. However, I don't jump to concluding what that might be. Perhaps there are indeed elements of anti-free-software corporate interest in defanging the FSF and RMS. I'm quite skeptical though. Some of the people who signed are among the most ardent free software people I've met. Perhaps there are deeper issues with RMS that are subtle, hard to capture, would *still* not make him evil or anything, but are just hard to express, and so these folks are failing to make it clear to us (and to me, I really am giving them *some* benefit of the doubt for the main reason that most everything else I've heard from these people makes sense to me, their credibility is good in my eyes on *other* topics). Perhaps there's an echo-chamber kind of effect where certain styles of language, certain words (e.g. misogyny) are used in well-meaning social activist circles, and the letter writers are essentially writing with their own echo-chamber in mind as their audience without considering building a wider coalition or consensus. Perhaps they are just all feeling *that* outraged, scared, triggered, exasperated, or similar. And people in that state are predictably likely to exaggerate, take uncharitable interpretations of their targets, and be generally in a state of blame, and it's from that emotional state that the letter comes. To be most charitable, just maybe they really care about software freedom, really believe that RMS staying in leadership will undermine the cause, and they are engaging from a place of real *fear* as they anticipate losing allies and friends who leave the movement and then see a downward spiral that results in all the worst outcomes for software freedom. Others may disagree with their assessment of the impact of RMS continuing in leadership, but it's possible that the drama is all between software-freedom advocates in two camps: one camp who are sincerely scared that RMS will inadvertently sabotage software freedom and lead us to the worst-case future, and the other camp who thinks RMS is still a
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
"I think this whole thread has shown how toxic anything around rms has become." I don't think this is a valid conclusion to make. On April 15, 2021 3:42:13 PM PDT, Steve M Bibayoff wrote: Hello, On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 1:56 PM Thomas Lord wrote: Maybe you could fire off one more round of personal insults and then drop it? As this statement is not a "personal insult"? I think this whole thread has shown how toxic anything around rms has become. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [1]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discus s -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. References 1. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
led that his creation become weaponized as a means of death and > destruction, he worked the rest of his life to make up for it. As in mining, we use dynamite to blast ores which you will use then back in your cars to move around. I see invention of dynamite as free software, it is not bad necessarily by itself, but some people may use it for bad purposes. > It seems the diehard defenders of dear leader will say and do and > point to anything -- including GNU or favorite lectures or whatever > -- as support for their position that people raising concerns should > simply shut up and not do so at all. Maybe yes, you should maybe stay calm when somebody speaks and help, or otherwise, if you don't want to help, do something else. > > we would not have Linux kernel without RMS > > Well, fortunately we now have GNU and the Linux kernel, so maybe it's time > to address concerns and grievances with RMS and FSF, and move our movement > forward? Why don't you address your personal issues with RMS if you have some? Is anybody blocking you? Why you bring your personal issues here on public mailing list? Though I did not see any personal issue from your side, beside that angrily speaking behind on somebody, even that I do not see as personal. It is your viepoint. Dissecting every single reaction, for heaven's sake that is waste of time. > > That RMS is not capable is a point that accusers wish to make, and > > that is the lie. But they cannot make it objectively. > > Capable of what, speeches and GNU? That's not the point. We're talking > about leadership and collaborating in an organization and a > movement. I look at results, whatever he was doing, there are huge planetary results impacting so many people, educating and helping people understand freedom. What you are looking at are his approaches to women, maybe you have issues there, maybe sandals, maybe interruption of speech. Please. Those are uncomparable things. > Jean, by your logic ... RMS is capable of creating GNU. But you seem to > appreciate that there are a great many people with commitment and integrity > and capabilities of their own who do **not** find it functional to be in a > community that denies any possibility of dysfunction. Who is disallowing you to be in community? What you are actually saying, is that you are not at all close to RMS like right now, but you would like to be close to RMS, but without RMS. WTF! Nobody is telling you should not be part of community, so be. Who is, is anybody forcing you to interact with people you don't like to interact? Don't interact, get your own life. Nobody is forsing you anything, but then please be kind and stop imposing your view on others as not everybody shares your views. Yes, fine, that public character assassination letters was signed by thousand, but also support RMS letter was signed [3]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ by several more thousands. Not everybody supports such vague statements. And despite those accusations have been proven factually wrong here [4]https://stallmansupport.org/ not a single one of the accusers excused themselves and said sorry. I would not like such people leading any organization. We already discussed RMS being able to recognize or grasp things and say sorry. When did you say sorry for whatever nonsense? You as accusers just find it right to behave how you wish and want, accuse others of doing the same pattern of behavior you have. > But a few years ago I brought up the question of free software and > weapons of war. People on a list said, "Hey, get politics out of > free software! All that matters are the four freedoms" Exactly. As if you touch that, you touch Freedom 0 - to use the software how one wish and wants. Which also implies you never accepted Freedom 0 and this is not place to present your ideas on changing Freedom 0. > I believe that style of reactionary stance appears far too often in the > free software community for it to gain more members, to grow as a movement. > > And that is why I was initially drawn to Libre Planet and FSF. Welcome, not everything is how you wish and want, research more. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: [5]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman [6]https://stallmansupport.org/ [7]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ References 1. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 2. https://media.libreplanet.or
Re: Support RMS
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jean Louis wrote: * Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 07:44]: > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > before RMS started yelling angrily. So please, where is the URL? I don’t know where it is. Sorry, Jean! I can tell you RMS was sitting in the back-left of room 123 of the MIT Stata Center, wearing a green collard shirt, black pants, and no shoes or sandals or socks (I was not close enough to smell his feet, however). I hope you’ll believe me all the same. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: [2]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman [3]https://stallmansupport.org/ [4]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ References 1. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 2. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns 3. https://stallmansupport.org/ 4. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:34 PM <[1]quil...@riseup.net> wrote: Danny Spitzberg <[2]stationa...@gmail.com> writes: > A great deal of assertions are flying around this list. > > People are selectively ignoring dozens of personal stories and > experiences, apparently assuming it is all a massive conspiracy that > has been boiling for decades. That seems to prevent productive > communication, and it adds to an atmosphere that prevents happy > hacking. No. People just feel that some persons should not control others' decisions by way of harrassment. I did not receive the below email. It is not in my spam directory either. I will respond to it inline. > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:13 PM <[3]quil...@riseup.net> wrote: > > Deb Nicholson <[4]d...@eximiousproductions.com> writes: > > > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > > participates in free software. > > I feel you are bullying us, Deb. > > In what way do you feel bullied? You keep insisting in imposing your views. They are clear. Some people agree and others don't. Insisting gets you nowhere. It is firing up the environment. It is making people get divided. If that is what you wanted, congratulations because you have achieved it. It shows who is who in the end. You also keep accusing RMS without hard proof. What counts as "hard proof," a written testimony signed by a lawyer or notary public? More importantly: why do you doubt what Deb says, and what so many other women and femme individuals say? Do you think Deb stands to benefit financially? (See below for a point about the original "Witch Trials") Those are the ways I have felt bullied by you because I am part of the community and because I have studied the facts of the case. I suggest you take the legal route, if you really have a case against FSF or against RMS. Stop the harrassment to the community and stop dividing the movement. It saddens me that you continue to attempt to suppress these conversations, instead of offering anything constructive -- as so many others have done, with grace. Like Aaron and Thomas and so on. (Thank you all for that!) If you really want to help the free software movement, look for common objectives, not cancelling people. Work with what you can of RMS, instead of focusing on what he is not able to provide for your objectives. If you have no common objectives, work with others instead of continuing this divisive attitude. > Should I abandon my values and stop promoting freedom? > > My understanding is that Deb expilained an important pattern of > responses by many people who have the right to their psychological and > personal safety in community spaces. So this does strike me as > somewhat ironic. It is ok to express those feelings. It is not ok to harrass by insistence on something that she knows will not be accepted for whatever reason and making us look gloomy. It is not ok pressing others to persecute people for their thoughts and expressions. These comments are clearly being shared in the interest of improving the community. It's a shame you can't see that. But I can say personally that I've benefited immensely from seeing these narratives emerge, and the vision has been inspiring. We can treat people better -- up to a point. We are not OK with a witch hunt. This was in the way it used to be in Massachusets. But witch hunts are a thing of the past ... Do you know the actual history of witch hunts? They started because men who owned land and were in power got "called out" by women for adultery, philandering, and illicit business dealings. They talked amongst themselves, as women tend to in communities, and word got out. And as a way of seeking retribution, these same men began rumors that the women were evil and needed to be killed, by fire. And the rest you probably know. References 1. mailto:quil...@riseup.net 2. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 3. mailto:quil...@riseup.net 4. mailto:d...@eximiousproductions.com ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Danny Spitzberg writes: > A great deal of assertions are flying around this list. > > People are selectively ignoring dozens of personal stories and > experiences, apparently assuming it is all a massive conspiracy that > has been boiling for decades. That seems to prevent productive > communication, and it adds to an atmosphere that prevents happy > hacking. No. People just feel that some persons should not control others' decisions by way of harrassment. I did not receive the below email. It is not in my spam directory either. I will respond to it inline. > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:13 PM wrote: > > Deb Nicholson writes: > > > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > > participates in free software. > > I feel you are bullying us, Deb. > > In what way do you feel bullied? You keep insisting in imposing your views. They are clear. Some people agree and others don't. Insisting gets you nowhere. It is firing up the environment. It is making people get divided. If that is what you wanted, congratulations because you have achieved it. It shows who is who in the end. You also keep accusing RMS without hard proof. Those are the ways I have felt bullied by you because I am part of the community and because I have studied the facts of the case. I suggest you take the legal route, if you really have a case against FSF or against RMS. Stop the harrassment to the community and stop dividing the movement. If you really want to help the free software movement, look for common objectives, not cancelling people. Work with what you can of RMS, instead of focusing on what he is not able to provide for your objectives. If you have no common objectives, work with others instead of continuing this divisive attitude. > Should I abandon my values and stop promoting freedom? > > My understanding is that Deb expilained an important pattern of > responses by many people who have the right to their psychological and > personal safety in community spaces. So this does strike me as > somewhat ironic. It is ok to express those feelings. It is not ok to harrass by insistence on something that she knows will not be accepted for whatever reason and making us look gloomy. It is not ok pressing others to persecute people for their thoughts and expressions. We are not OK with a witch hunt. This was in the way it used to be in Massachusets. But witch hunts are a thing of the past ... ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS - find new communities
On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 3:55 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <[1]adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote: Aaron, there is no resolution. They have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they do not want and will not enter into any resolution. It's never been about resolution, though, but attack. The intent is to destroy free software for the benefit of corporate vultures. Adrienne, we don’t know each other, so I’ll share this: my intent has been to find a safe and smart and welcoming community. If constructive criticism comes across to you as an attack, consider why you are assuming ill will and bad intentions. Consider how you benefit from silence and blaming victims. I found a lot of very lovely free/libre software contributors in Cuba, in Malaysia, and other places I’ve been. And at least a dozen FSF staff and Libre Planet speakers and other have demonstrated kindness and intelligence and a community orientation. But sadly, this list, a minority of individuals refuse to believe people’s personal experiences — and all have communicated in a closed-minded way. Aaron send Thomas and Paul and others and Jean have occasionally shown interest in imagining better governance, new organizational contexts for happy hacking. But it seems that there remains a preference for cult-like hero worship and foot-kissing over learning and growing personally, or for the movement. I’ve resolved to find other communities. I join hundreds of others who have decided leaving or fleeing hostile, toxic spaces is best for free software. So, HELLO WORLD! If anyone on this list can recommend other productive and happy community spaces for free software, please let me know! Paraphrasing Mark 6:11 and Proverbs 10:18 - And verily I say unto ye - he that conceals hatred has lying lips, and he who spreads slander is a fool. For St. IGNUcius shall shake off the dust under his feet for a testimony against ye. And ye who blaspheme [[2]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/] can never fill his shoes. Enough fun for the day. I'm off to work on GNU C-Graph! Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [3]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [4]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [5]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [6]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. mailto:adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com 2. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ 3. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 4. http://codeartnow.com/ 5. http://www.abertheid.info/ 6. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Deb Nicholson writes: > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > participates in free software. I feel you are bullying us, Deb. Should I abandon my values and stop promoting freedom? ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Based on the last few messages, it seems to me like FSF should switch from nonprofit incorporation and re-register with the government as a cult or religion. I hear the tax benefits are comparable, and the scrutiny into abusive behavior is far less too. Famous examples of financing include the Boston Catholic Church, Scientology, Rajneeshpuram -- why not GNUtopia too? And to those that think I want to remove RMS. It's not all about him! As I said earlier and several times, and as others have too, it's the enablers who refuse to hear any constructive criticism. I would LOVE to be in a free software community where people are more productive than ideological, more consensus-oriented than close-minded and defensive. Thomas, perhaps you are a voice of reason in all of this? On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 2:56 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <[1]adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote: > * Danny Spitzberg <[2]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 08:21]: > "(I was not close enough to smell his feet, however)" Paraphrasing the gospel of Luke 7:36-39: And behold - one of those in the Free/Libre Software community who was a sinner shall stand at his feet weeping, and shall wash his feet with tears, and wipe them with the hairs of his/her head, and kiss his feet and anoint them with ointment ... for s/he is a sinner who has blasphemed against St. IGNUcius of EMACS. Danny, next time you're fortunate enough to sit by RMS' feet, be cognisant of your status in the presence of the man who revolutionised the software industry by giving users freedom! - "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3-5) :-) Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [3]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [4]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [5]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [6]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. mailto:adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com 2. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 3. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 4. http://codeartnow.com/ 5. http://www.abertheid.info/ 6. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:40 PM Alexandre Oliva <[1]lxol...@fsfla.org> wrote: On Apr 15, 2021, Aaron Wolf <[2]wolft...@riseup.net> wrote: > That RMS turns some people away is not debatable. I'm willing to accept that as a premise. It would take more than a saint (which he is ;-) to not turn anyone whatsoever away. Now let's look into the effects of defaming him, shall we? False accusations as the ones that have been made are not taken lightly. People who believe them are likely to be turned away not just from the FSF, but from any public appearance by RMS as leader or regular participant in the movement he founded. If we accept the premise that RMS's misbehavior drives people away, then attributing far worse misbehavior to him drives more people away from the movement. Conversely, people who do NOT believe the false accusations perceive intolerance and a toxic atmosphere being supported by a significant fraction of the movement. If we accept the premise that misbehavior attributed to RMS drives people away, then it's hard to dispute that the displays of intolerance and toxic atmosphere will also drive people away, probably in a larger magnitude. That's why I find it so hard to believe that the poeple carrying out these actions are acting out of love for the Free Software movement. Even if they were sure their actions would manage to deprive the whole movement from RMS's alleged negative influence, getting him to commit suicide or somesuch, we'd lose the "stallman was right" wisdom, and get the negative publicity of being such a toxic environment that the founder was driven to suicide. And since their actions have failed, we're left with a defamed leader, a divided community, and a large number of lying and toxic participants who purport to have acted in good faith for the movement, but that were only competent enough to have caused great damage :-( RMS is forever associated with the movement. The best those who love the movement have to do is to restore his defamed image. The best I can imagine is that people learn from mistakes, grow to be more inclusive, make a happy space for everyone. Those who don't wish to be associated with him, but that support the ideas behind the movement, are better off finding ways to support the ideas without interacting with him, but also without defaming him. As for those who wish to destroy the movement... I don't really want to give them any useful advice. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker [3]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar References 1. mailto:lxol...@fsfla.org 2. mailto:wolft...@riseup.net 3. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 12:29 AM Jean Louis wrote: * Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 09:48]: > > You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more > > free and some not. > > Jean, I mention the bare feet to suggest that my recollection of the story > is accurate, and the point about smell was to add specificity to how close > I was sitting. You assume too much. How do I who read your story, can know that you are proving to yourself, not to readers, how it is accurate. To prove to readers, please find some other person who remembers bare feet, than also that angrily talking, that we can understand objectively what was said and why. Can you finally find which session was it: [2]https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/collection/libreplane t-2018-videos-and-slides/ > > What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn what > > our planet really is. I want to point out again how this comment comes across as presumptuous. > > I’ve traveled extensively, thank you. It has indeed been revealing. I > especially appreciate visiting with people who are kind and capable > leaders, who practice nonviolence and take a cooperative approach. Also, > it’s nice when people take a stance against free software being used by > armed forces and militaries... but that’s another topic. You have to travel to cultures not similar to yours, not like Western-style of cultures, try Greece, Sicily, Turkey, visit people in their homes, eat with them, understand differences. And indeed I have, for many years, but thank you very much! Now by saying people who are kind and capable leaders, do you wish to imply that RMS is not kind and capable leader? When it comes to interpersonal dealings, when it comes to FSF staff and event organizers trying to do their jobs effectively... Yes, that's the implication in a nutshell. On majority of public speeches RMS appears kind and that he is capable, there is result speaking for itself, Dictators are known to very charismatic speeches, do they not? :P we would not have GNU without RMS, GNU is entirely besides the point. But, for an example that's somewhat of an inverse of RMS and GNU, Alfred Nobel invented dynamite and was so appalled that his creation become weaponized as a means of death and destruction, he worked the rest of his life to make up for it. It seems the diehard defenders of dear leader will say and do and point to anything -- including GNU or favorite lectures or whatever -- as support for their position that people raising concerns should simply shut up and not do so at all. we would not have Linux kernel without RMS Well, fortunately we now have GNU and the Linux kernel, so maybe it's time to address concerns and grievances with RMS and FSF, and move our movement forward? speaking on University in Helsinki where Linus decided to license it under GPL, as it was proprietary in the first place; there would be neither FSF neither the Libreplanet. You can I hope, realize, how much is that all caused by RMS and his delegation of responsibilities to other people. That RMS is capable is out of question for me, you can speak about behavior, but there is no way to convince those having analytical skills that RMS is not capable. That RMS is not capable is a point that accusers wish to make, and that is the lie. But they cannot make it objectively. Capable of what, speeches and GNU? That's not the point. We're talking about leadership and collaborating in an organization and a movement. Jean, by your logic ... RMS is capable of creating GNU. But you seem to appreciate that there are a great many people with commitment and integrity and capabilities of their own who do **not** find it functional to be in a community that denies any possibility of dysfunction. Now in your stories of seeing leaders kind and capable, you did not tell us how much of first hand experience you have with those leaders in other countries as compared to RMS. As I know many leaders who are kind in public, but they are tigers in the activities behind, and not everybody like to work with tigers. Leaders accomplish so much more than other people, they focus and sacrifice much more than common people. They may behave quite inadequate to many around them who are by mistake with them. I say by mistake, because leaders technically, cannot work with everybody. They have to choose those who understand their purposes fully and can equally act with them. It is an information warfare. Why generals have their officers
Re: Support RMS
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:19 PM Alexandre Oliva <[1]lxol...@fsfla.org> wrote: On Apr 15, 2021, Jean Louis wrote: > Alexandre Oliva, have you been on many Libreplanet videos, that you > can confirm how RMS yelled on public speakers and if that is so, can > we know which video is it? I recall witnessing him run to the microphone more than once to interact with speakers at LibrePlanet and elsewhere, and his speaking without yelling in those occasions. That is not supposed to mean that the reported incident hasn't happened, just that, if it did happen, I wasn't there. I believe that if I had witnessed it, I'd remember. I’ve shared the story before, but at Libre Planet 2018 RMS began yelling angrily from his seat in the back of the auditorium, a few seats away from me and a now-former FSF staff member, and then rushed the stage to grab the mic and berate the speaker who was airing very reasonable and rational (not emotional!) ideas for building the free software movement. For me, that outburst spoke volumes about how many people in free software refuse to acknowledge flaws, shortcomings, or even obstacles that the speaker had laid out. To be honest, I found the whole outburst— and the audience’s quiet seeming to condone the outburst — all very depressing. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker [2]https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar References 1. mailto:lxol...@fsfla.org 2. https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:49 PM Jean Louis wrote: * Alexandre Oliva <[1]lxol...@fsfla.org> [2021-04-16 01:40]: > That's why I find it so hard to believe that the poeple carrying out > these actions are acting out of love for the Free Software movement. > Even if they were sure their actions would manage to deprive the whole > movement from RMS's alleged negative influence, getting him to commit > suicide or somesuch, we'd lose the "stallman was right" wisdom, and get > the negative publicity of being such a toxic environment that the > founder was driven to suicide. And since their actions have failed, > we're left with a defamed leader, a divided community, and a large > number of lying and toxic participants who purport to have acted in good > faith for the movement, but that were only competent enough to have > caused great damage :-( I find it so, thank you. It also very hard to believe that those people express their opinions against RMS only on the subject of RMS's behavior --- I see those expressions rather corrupt by few personal intentions of accuser's who fundamentally disagree with RMS at some political issues. Example is proprietary vs. free software. RMS and FSF do not use proprietary software, but maybe some FSF members will use it in their private or non-FSF activities. This does not matter as in GNU environment we do not look into those issues, rather into the purpose to build fully free operating systems. But it is unbelievable to me that there is or cannot be any fundamental conflict related to free software and that accusers are only speaking of RMS' behavior. Have you been in an organization where your collaborators or others carried themselves in a unprofessional manner? It hurts organizational outcomes. The same is applicable here, unfortunately, with RMS causing so many dozens of people to leave or flee :((( -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: [2]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman [3]https://stallmansupport.org/ [4]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ References 1. mailto:lxol...@fsfla.org 2. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns 3. https://stallmansupport.org/ 4. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Ali, both are correct. On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:48 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]a...@gnu.org> wrote: Danny, what is disgusting is ruining people's lives and reputation with false accusations and lies. Abuse of financial power and popularity is disgusting. Saying someone assaulted you or harassed you because he interrupted you or got angry is disgusting. Should I be accused of rape for mocking? They might do that, and that is disgusting. For me, this is not just the matter of Stallman. It's abuse of power and ruining lives. I live in a country in Middle East and I see this every day and I know and feel and understand it; and I fight against it. On April 15, 2021 5:39:30 PM UTC, Danny Spitzberg <[2]stationa...@gmail.com> wrote: >Ali, mocking is disgusting. I don’t think you should do that. > >On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:37 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[3]a...@gnu.org> wrote: > >> Do you guys follow football? I mean the real football, not Amerikkkan >> one. There's a club in Spain named Barcelona. They have a player in >> their team named Leo Messi. I think many of you know him. >> >> Messi is believed to be one of the best football players in the history. >> During time, some people accused Messi of sexual assault and harassment. >> They even went to court for it and sued Messi. It turned out that all of >> them were only doing this for money, hoping that Leo Messi gives them >> some ransom. >> >> There's another player named Cristiano Ronaldo. Ronaldo is almost as >> same as Messi. He is again believed to be one of the bests in the >> history. He also was accused of sexual harassment and assault. Again, >> some people went to court and sued him, etc. >> >> Some of the accusers never went to court but they tell very interesting >> stories on how they were assaulted. There were no proof and the teams >> (Barcelona and Real Madrid) never responded. >> >> I can't tell if those players who have a reputation of good behavior and >> charity and social work were really offenders or not, but I can tell one >> thing. Barca and Madrid didn't let go of their best players because of >> some unproven accusations. >> >> I remember Leo Messi once attacked a journalist physically because he >> was very angry but again, he made up to that, apologized, and never >> repeated such behavior because he was aware of how it can affect people. >> Again, we didn't see any effort to ban Messi from playing football >> completely because that mistake. >> >> I'm a football fan. I'm a fan of Manchester United, neither of those >> teams I mentioned but I never ever campaigned to throw out Messi and >> Ronaldo for unproven accusations. >> >> I did not expect those teams to simply fire probably the best player of >> their history because some people said so. >> >> Do you get my analogy here? I hear stories about an autistic person >> named RMS that he has assaulted women, harassed them, or sexually abused >> them. When I go and read the stories, I see what Stallman did was to >> "upset" some people. Not harassment, not assault, but upset. >> >> Stallman shouted at some people or interrupted them while speaking. He >> hit on women or asked them out and insisted on that, which made them >> uncomfortable. If he was doing to me, I would be upset too, but I >> wouldn't ever accuse him of assault or harassment. I wouldn't expect FSF >> to fire its probably most valuable player that is known for his charity, >> effort for equality, justice, women's rights, etc. >> >> Why people expect FSF to fire its probably best player in history? I >> don't understand that. >> >> What people explain is not sexual harassment. He was an unpleasant >> person, maybe, to some people but he didn't do anything to harass them. >> >> Let me give you another example. There's a different between patting >> some child on the butt and pedophilia. Now a pedophile most-probably >> does pat children on the butt but are all people who do that pedophiles? >> Hell no. >> >> Please don't accuse people of what they didn't do because they made you >> uncomfortable or were unpleasant. If someone shouts at you, defend >> yourself or if the act of shouting makes you psychologically hurt, >> please be very very careful when you come out of your home because you >> may experience it almost every time. >> >> If someone hitting on you makes you uncomfortable, ask them not to do >> that or
Re: Support RMS
Aaron Wolf writes: > On 2021-04-15 5:54 p.m., quil...@riseup.net wrote: >> Aaron Wolf writes: >> >>> Ali, >>> >>> I agree with your concerns here, and I have seen many unfair accusations. >> >> No you don't. You are not even addressing his concerns. >> > > I don't need to address his concerns because I don't disagree with > them. So you agree that RMS was targeted just because he is famous? That is, in synthesis what ARH proposes. > There's nothing to discuss about it. My whole reply was about > recognizing the nuance of things that are *different* than the concerns > he has. When it comes to concerns about false and exaggerated > accusations, I wasn't disagreeing with anything. It does not look like that at all. It rather looks as if you want to seem as accepting contrary assertions as equally true. Not as equally valid opinions for each party, but as non-contrary. That is plainly false and insulting the intelligence of everyone in this list. >>> However, we must be sure not to dismiss other concerns. In Deb's recent >>> reply, she didn't repeat any of the unfair exaggerated accusations. We >>> can grapple with the more subtle nuanced issues without assuming all >>> critics are the most extreme ones. Even people who signed the Open >>> Letter (which I saw as grossly unreasonable in some regards) are not all >>> people who would have written the language exactly that way (which is >>> one of the problems with open letters, people feel pressured to sign to >>> signal general agreement and there's not much room to express nuance or >>> a mix of agreement and disagreement). >> >> She is repeating the same blablabla in other words. Diplomacy does not >> cover for the harassment. It is better that she'd rude but sincere than >> diplomatic and false. > > This form of pretending to know other people's minds is toxic and > harmful. Even if she were much *worse* than you believe, it would be a > problem. I do not accept this adhominem attack. It is not necessary. I am not pretending I know what she thinks. I can just see her actions. > If you make mistakes in understanding your worst enemies, it > leaves you in a weaker position. You don't know Deb, and you are reading > plain text communication on the internet. For you to accuse Deb of being > insincere, of being diplomatic and false — you are falling to the level > of the people you criticize. You are levying accusations without > adequate knowledge or evidence. Saying something in a way to convince to do their way by manipulating feelings is not truthful. Usually people which lie look very nice. It could be false. But the results and history of this case demonstrates there are only witch hunts. >> If she feels bad here, it is wise to become part of another group, not >> to try to take over this group or to sabotage the cause of freedom by >> dividing people here. We know how she feels. She knows how we feel. >> No consensus, no work together. That's it! >> > > Deb is not trying to take over this group or sabotage anything. And one > of the core problems with "cancel culture" and so on is the dynamic of > drawing simplistic with-us-or-against-us lines. You are demonstrating > exactly how to divide and sabotage in every aspect of your "That's it!" > attitude which implies you know all you need to know, there's nothing to > be curious about, nothing to learn, and people are either good or > evil. Evil is the act, not the person. It is dividing people in this community in two camps. There is no searching for understanding and consensus. It is just manipulating the group to control what a single person does. I would not allow even my mother to tell me what to do and she intends to tell RMS and all of us what to do with our own advocacy. > Now, that's the *impression* I get from your email. If I were to just > *conclude* that you were forever hopeless and dogmatic and write you > off, I'd be doing the same mistake myself. I don't actually know you, > and I'm only guessing about what's behind your text. And the story in my > mind is that you are upset about the unfair attacks on RMS and are in a > reactive and defensive state which is why you are so dismissive of Deb's > concerns. To be fair, she and others have been reactive as well and > sometimes added to the drama. I am upset by the manipulation. I would rather have her ask something that we would accept, even if it would involve some sacrifice. That would be more honest. > Keep in mind the Fundamental Attribution Error. Generally, people fall > into this mindset where when *we* are reactive and angry, we see it as > just how we are in that circumstance, not how we always are. But when we > see OTHERS being reactive and angry, we presume that this is a > fundamental part of who they are, that they just ARE reactive people who > want to be controlling etc. Just stop trying to control and harrass people. That is all we are asking.
Re: Support RMS
On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 6:13 PM <[1]quil...@riseup.net> wrote: I have been yelled at by Richard. I just yelled back. We stopped yelling immediately and continued our conversation. I did not attack him publicly as a retaliation. What I would call for, is that the people who want to keep attacking Dr. Stallman to step down from that self-assigned position. What you call an attack other people call a defense. I’m sure you can agree “just yelling back” is a poor strategy to create a safe and happy space for hacking. This issue has already been presented from all possible sides. We need to work for freedom. Everyone has established their position and there is nothing else anyone can do. Neither side will back up. So it is a waste of time to continue the harrassment to the members of this mailing list. PLEASE STOP! References 1. mailto:quil...@riseup.net ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
A great deal of assertions are flying around this list. People are selectively ignoring dozens of personal stories and experiences, apparently assuming it is all a massive conspiracy that has been boiling for decades. That seems to prevent productive communication, and it adds to an atmosphere that prevents happy hacking. On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:13 PM <[1]quil...@riseup.net> wrote: Deb Nicholson <[2]d...@eximiousproductions.com> writes: > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > participates in free software. I feel you are bullying us, Deb. In what way do you feel bullied? Should I abandon my values and stop promoting freedom? My understanding is that Deb explained an important pattern of responses by many people who have the right to their psychological and personal safety in community spaces. So this does strike me as somewhat ironic. References 1. mailto:quil...@riseup.net 2. mailto:d...@eximiousproductions.com ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
I have been yelled at by Richard. I just yelled back. We stopped yelling immediately and continued our conversation. I did not attack him publicly as a retaliation. What I would call for, is that the people who want to keep attacking Dr. Stallman to step down from that self-assigned position. This issue has already been presented from all possible sides. We need to work for freedom. Everyone has established their position and there is nothing else anyone can do. Neither side will back up. So it is a waste of time to continue the harrassment to the members of this mailing list. PLEASE STOP! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Aaron Wolf writes: > Ali, > > I agree with your concerns here, and I have seen many unfair accusations. No you don't. You are not even addressing his concerns. > However, we must be sure not to dismiss other concerns. In Deb's recent > reply, she didn't repeat any of the unfair exaggerated accusations. We > can grapple with the more subtle nuanced issues without assuming all > critics are the most extreme ones. Even people who signed the Open > Letter (which I saw as grossly unreasonable in some regards) are not all > people who would have written the language exactly that way (which is > one of the problems with open letters, people feel pressured to sign to > signal general agreement and there's not much room to express nuance or > a mix of agreement and disagreement). She is repeating the same blablabla in other words. Diplomacy does not cover for the harassment. It is better that she'd rude but sincere than diplomatic and false. If she feels bad here, it is wise to become part of another group, not to try to take over this group or to sabotage the cause of freedom by dividing people here. We know how she feels. She knows how we feel. No consensus, no work together. That's it! ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:30 PM <[1]quil...@riseup.net> wrote: Danny Spitzberg <[2]stationa...@gmail.com> writes: > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:34 PM <[3]quil...@riseup.net> wrote: > > Danny Spitzberg <[4]stationa...@gmail.com> writes: > > > A great deal of assertions are flying around this list. > > > > People are selectively ignoring dozens of personal stories and > > experiences, apparently assuming it is all a massive conspiracy that > > has been boiling for decades. That seems to prevent productive > > communication, and it adds to an atmosphere that prevents happy > > hacking. > > No. People just feel that some persons should not control others' > decisions by way of harrassment. > > I did not receive the below email. It is not in my spam directory > either. I will respond to it inline. > > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:13 PM <[5]quil...@riseup.net> wrote: > > > > Deb Nicholson <[6]d...@eximiousproductions.com> writes: > > > > > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > > > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > > > participates in free software. > > > > I feel you are bullying us, Deb. > > > > In what way do you feel bullied? > > You keep insisting in imposing your views. They are clear. Some people > agree and others don't. Insisting gets you nowhere. It is firing up > the environment. It is making people get divided. If that is what you > wanted, congratulations because you have achieved it. It shows who is > who in the end. > > You also keep accusing RMS without hard proof. > > What counts as "hard proof," a written testimony signed by a lawyer or notary public? Hard proof for asking him to step down would be that those people he has scared from activism would promote freedom and not open source. Another hard proof would be that they use free software in their machines and not just pieces of free software. Another hard proof would be that they resist corporations more than RMS. Another hard proof would be that they would have rejected as much money as him from corporations, instead of working for them. What you are saying so far is that people's grievances about personal and organizational dynamics are **only** valid if they make substantial contributions to advancing free/libre software and/or fighting extractive for-profit corporations. Another hard proof would be that they work for consensus in the community, not division (like corporations want). It is unkind of you to dismiss the efforts of many like Deb who over the years have tried time and again to propose interventions and seek consensus, to label it all "division" and "attacks." I can go on with the list indefinitely. This is your list of what counts as "hard proof"? In that case, perhaps we need to define our terms; I expected you to say something like "evidence -- particularly documentation or photo or video of harm or dysfunction, submitted under oath, and confirmed by at least one third-party." But I am getting tired of distracting my work on HyperbolaBSD. Many hackers are being recruited and guided for learning to write the new kernel. > More importantly: why do you doubt what Deb says, and what so many other women and femme individuals say? Do you think Deb stands to benefit financially? (See below for a point > about the original "Witch Trials") > > Those are the ways I have felt bullied by you because I am part of the > community and because I have studied the facts of the case. I suggest > you take the legal route, if you really have a case against FSF or > against RMS. Stop the harrassment to the community and stop dividing > the movement. > > It saddens me that you continue to attempt to suppress these > conversations, instead of offering anything constructive -- as so many > others have done, with grace. Like Aaron and Thomas and so on. (Thank > you all for that!) I am not responsible for your happiness. I have offered solutions. But you will not take them. Harrassment continues. What you've offered would not **solve** the problem of people finding it difficult or impossible to be in the community around FSF. However, I can see how it would help ignore it, which I suppose can be helpful for some. > If you really want to help the free software movement, look for common > objectives, not cancelling people. Work with what you can of RMS, > instead of focusing on what he is not able to provide for your >
Re: Support RMS - find new communities
Adrienne, we don’t know each other, so I’ll share this: my intent has been to find a safe and smart and welcoming community. If constructive criticism comes across to you as an attack If anyone on this list can recommend other productive and happy community spaces for free software, please let me know! Hope you find the kind of community you're looking for Danny. Good luck and happy hacking! Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - [1]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - [2]http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - [3]http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph Let's Link Up: [4]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. http://codeartnow.com/ 3. http://www.abertheid.info/ 4. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:39 PM Jean Louis wrote: * Alexandre Oliva <[1]lxol...@fsfla.org> [2021-04-16 01:40]: > People who believe them are likely to be turned away not just from the > FSF, but from any public appearance by RMS as leader or regular > participant in the movement he founded. > > If we accept the premise that RMS's misbehavior drives people away, then > attributing far worse misbehavior to him drives more people away from > the movement. Exactly that is what I argue for, I just did not express it well enough. > Conversely, people who do NOT believe the false accusations perceive > intolerance and a toxic atmosphere being supported by a significant > fraction of the movement. > > If we accept the premise that misbehavior attributed to RMS drives > people away, then it's hard to dispute that the displays of intolerance > and toxic atmosphere will also drive people away, probably in a larger > magnitude. Yes. However, I have impression that it is just few people who initiate and drive others to kind of "join" but those others don't have first person experiences. It seem to me that group of these people abusively, not rationally, pick on RMS for reason of being human. There is no possible way that RMS will agree with everybody, especially RMS, but I have been watching Libreplanet videos, I did not see none of them spoiled for some unreasonable behavior. Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off before RMS started yelling angrily. I rather find behavior of initiators of defaming and character assassinations rather psychotic more sociopath in this sense, lacking empathy to such a high degree. I do feel bad for RMS. He seems entirely beyond remorse, even in his recent statement -- essentially, "I'm sorry people are upset" not "I'm sorry that I don't understand people's feedback." What you explain in this email is exactly reasonable empathy, you analyse the effect on both sides, you can feel for this and the other side. That is opposite and in contrast to those very few who initiated character assassination. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: [2]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman [3]https://stallmansupport.org/ [4]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ References 1. mailto:lxol...@fsfla.org 2. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns 3. https://stallmansupport.org/ 4. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Deb Nicholson [2021-04-16 17:53]: > Not sure why this needs to be corrected, but I've traveled "our planet" > quite a bit (before Covid) specifically to connect with free software > activists and developers. The point on traveling was not to connect just to people very similar to you and your culture, rather to experience those other cultures that are different as that is how we may learn tolerance towards others. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Dear Aaron, As it appears you know Deb well, and I don't know either of you, is it reasonable that I have asked Deb to express herself rather specifically instead of placing general accusations in public? Now, she said more than 6+ people she knows who complains, and that there is speech in one video in 2018. That is all so far I got from Deb. Can we get that video from 2018, that we can see what it is? As for now those accusations appear like a balloon, full of air. That some people were interrupted, some people were in disagreement, and some women approached, I would say so what, I cannot see how anything of that is proportionate to character assassination going on. May we see that video from 2018? Which URL is it? At what minute? Videos are public, where is that conference? https://media.libreplanet.org/videos Deb wish to say there was something RMS said in background, OK fine, but then if it was so important, why there is no URL? Let us please review that situation, as if accusers wish to bring it in public here on the mailing list, let us the public judge the actual real incident, as it must be on video. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor <[1]podrzaj.gre...@gmail.com> wrote: hi Deb, all. hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes: i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a lag. reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet. if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i would bet my arm that it wouldn't. your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of. the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? of how to conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients called wisdom) those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country. now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile) let me walk trough your letter Deb On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, differently? as oppose to what? samely? hitting on them at a conference, oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she approves of it?) how does that work? loudly interrupting a young person's talk only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS, and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he would go revisiting his. or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing joke, once you hear it you die In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a cheer fills the room. Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems like those couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun which is not sexist at all Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net positive for the free software movement. contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to be the way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you constantly argue against your own principle. Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time? truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the innocent ... ever, ever, ever much? I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting people who don't mind harassment,
Re: Support RMS
* Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 11:18]: > I wrote to the FSF staffer sitting next to me, another former FSF staffer, > and another person attending Libre Planet who I became friends with, and > asked if they remember that incident with RMS yelling angrily and rushing > the stage to grab the microphone and verbally attack the speaker for what > seemed like very reasonable points about obstacles for free software. (I > still can't imagine any reasonable person thinking it would be enjoyable or > rewarding to give a talk that goes against what RMS thinks or feels!) > > One replied just now, "Sadly, yes." > > I'll update you as the others reply. What was behind it? Mentioning "open source" or what? Don't give us breadcrumbs, be specific please and place here the whole context of the story. Who spoke what, who is that friends which words you represent here and what did RMS said in response to what was spoken. Please find the video and let us understand the context. Not just emotional reaction of you, your friend or RMS. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Apr 15, 2021, Danny Spitzberg wrote: > the speaker who was airing very reasonable and rational You got me curious as to what the speaker was getting at. No offense intended, but we've recently been facing situations in which one group launches personal attacks that violate nearly every CoC, but whose members don't even recognize it as a personal attack and perceive it as perfectly justified, whereas another group who complains about the unkindness of the attacks gets labeled as jerks or worse, again, without realization that they're all crossing the line. Point being, since you and I and RMS seem to have quite different points of view and perspectives, it wouldn't surprise me if something that one of us found perfectly reasonable and rational would come across as extremely offensive and unacceptable to another. That's not to say that it would make the response you described right or desirable, but it might make it at least a little more understandable and perhaps tolerable. Does anyone have a pointer to a recording handy? > To be honest, I found the whole outburst— and the audience’s quiet seeming > to condone the outburst — all very depressing. I haven't witnessed this, but if it was as you describe, maybe what you perceived in the audience was probably more like shock paralysis than condoning. I've witnessed such a silence in the audience in one occasion in which he let out a tasteless pun, caught himself a moment too late and paused for a bit, seemingly embarrased and asking for forgiveness, while the audience had that sort of silence of shock and uncertainty as to what to do next. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Ali, mocking is disgusting. I don’t think you should do that. On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:37 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]a...@gnu.org> wrote: Do you guys follow football? I mean the real football, not Amerikkkan one. There's a club in Spain named Barcelona. They have a player in their team named Leo Messi. I think many of you know him. Messi is believed to be one of the best football players in the history. During time, some people accused Messi of sexual assault and harassment. They even went to court for it and sued Messi. It turned out that all of them were only doing this for money, hoping that Leo Messi gives them some ransom. There's another player named Cristiano Ronaldo. Ronaldo is almost as same as Messi. He is again believed to be one of the bests in the history. He also was accused of sexual harassment and assault. Again, some people went to court and sued him, etc. Some of the accusers never went to court but they tell very interesting stories on how they were assaulted. There were no proof and the teams (Barcelona and Real Madrid) never responded. I can't tell if those players who have a reputation of good behavior and charity and social work were really offenders or not, but I can tell one thing. Barca and Madrid didn't let go of their best players because of some unproven accusations. I remember Leo Messi once attacked a journalist physically because he was very angry but again, he made up to that, apologized, and never repeated such behavior because he was aware of how it can affect people. Again, we didn't see any effort to ban Messi from playing football completely because that mistake. I'm a football fan. I'm a fan of Manchester United, neither of those teams I mentioned but I never ever campaigned to throw out Messi and Ronaldo for unproven accusations. I did not expect those teams to simply fire probably the best player of their history because some people said so. Do you get my analogy here? I hear stories about an autistic person named RMS that he has assaulted women, harassed them, or sexually abused them. When I go and read the stories, I see what Stallman did was to "upset" some people. Not harassment, not assault, but upset. Stallman shouted at some people or interrupted them while speaking. He hit on women or asked them out and insisted on that, which made them uncomfortable. If he was doing to me, I would be upset too, but I wouldn't ever accuse him of assault or harassment. I wouldn't expect FSF to fire its probably most valuable player that is known for his charity, effort for equality, justice, women's rights, etc. Why people expect FSF to fire its probably best player in history? I don't understand that. What people explain is not sexual harassment. He was an unpleasant person, maybe, to some people but he didn't do anything to harass them. Let me give you another example. There's a different between patting some child on the butt and pedophilia. Now a pedophile most-probably does pat children on the butt but are all people who do that pedophiles? Hell no. Please don't accuse people of what they didn't do because they made you uncomfortable or were unpleasant. If someone shouts at you, defend yourself or if the act of shouting makes you psychologically hurt, please be very very careful when you come out of your home because you may experience it almost every time. If someone hitting on you makes you uncomfortable, ask them not to do that or ask security to help you but don't accuse that person of harassment because looking at someone or being weird is not harassment. And again, please be careful when you come out of your house because you may experience it every day. If someone interrupts you, ask them not to do that or argue back but don't accuse that person of harassment because they didn't harass you with that. Harassment is different. And please be careful when you come out of your house because people may interrupt you every day. Stop with accusing people of things when they didn't do that. Also, please don't accuse me of sexual harassment because I wrote this note. I don't even know any of you and I did not harass you. Disagreeing with you is not harassment. Sending email messages is not assault. I had to clarify that because as far as I've seen you people, the next open letter would've been for me. Don't start arh-open-letter please. And yes, I'm mocking some people. -- Ali Reza Hayati ([2]https://alirezahayati.com) Libre culture activist and privacy advocate
Re: Support RMS
Thank you for the rest of explanations. Though I would rather hear a specific first hand story, as to understand reasoning. You have made full analysis, but there is no specific anecdote. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Apr 15, 2021, Aaron Wolf wrote: > That RMS turns some people away is not debatable. I'm willing to accept that as a premise. It would take more than a saint (which he is ;-) to not turn anyone whatsoever away. Now let's look into the effects of defaming him, shall we? False accusations as the ones that have been made are not taken lightly. People who believe them are likely to be turned away not just from the FSF, but from any public appearance by RMS as leader or regular participant in the movement he founded. If we accept the premise that RMS's misbehavior drives people away, then attributing far worse misbehavior to him drives more people away from the movement. Conversely, people who do NOT believe the false accusations perceive intolerance and a toxic atmosphere being supported by a significant fraction of the movement. If we accept the premise that misbehavior attributed to RMS drives people away, then it's hard to dispute that the displays of intolerance and toxic atmosphere will also drive people away, probably in a larger magnitude. That's why I find it so hard to believe that the poeple carrying out these actions are acting out of love for the Free Software movement. Even if they were sure their actions would manage to deprive the whole movement from RMS's alleged negative influence, getting him to commit suicide or somesuch, we'd lose the "stallman was right" wisdom, and get the negative publicity of being such a toxic environment that the founder was driven to suicide. And since their actions have failed, we're left with a defamed leader, a divided community, and a large number of lying and toxic participants who purport to have acted in good faith for the movement, but that were only competent enough to have caused great damage :-( RMS is forever associated with the movement. The best those who love the movement have to do is to restore his defamed image. Those who don't wish to be associated with him, but that support the ideas behind the movement, are better off finding ways to support the ideas without interacting with him, but also without defaming him. As for those who wish to destroy the movement... I don't really want to give them any useful advice. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Hello, On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 1:56 PM Thomas Lord wrote: > Maybe you could fire off one more round of personal insults > and then drop it? As this statement is not a "personal insult"? I think this whole thread has shown how toxic anything around rms has become. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Danny Spitzberg writes: > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 9:34 PM wrote: > > Danny Spitzberg writes: > > > A great deal of assertions are flying around this list. > > > > People are selectively ignoring dozens of personal stories and > > experiences, apparently assuming it is all a massive conspiracy that > > has been boiling for decades. That seems to prevent productive > > communication, and it adds to an atmosphere that prevents happy > > hacking. > > No. People just feel that some persons should not control others' > decisions by way of harrassment. > > I did not receive the below email. It is not in my spam directory > either. I will respond to it inline. > > > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 6:13 PM wrote: > > > > Deb Nicholson writes: > > > > > Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't > > > care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, > > > participates in free software. > > > > I feel you are bullying us, Deb. > > > > In what way do you feel bullied? > > You keep insisting in imposing your views. They are clear. Some people > agree and others don't. Insisting gets you nowhere. It is firing up > the environment. It is making people get divided. If that is what you > wanted, congratulations because you have achieved it. It shows who is > who in the end. > > You also keep accusing RMS without hard proof. > > What counts as "hard proof," a written testimony signed by a lawyer or notary > public? Hard proof for asking him to step down would be that those people he has scared from activism would promote freedom and not open source. Another hard proof would be that they use free software in their machines and not just pieces of free software. Another hard proof would be that they resist corporations more than RMS. Another hard proof would be that they would have rejected as much money as him from corporations, instead of working for them. Another hard proof would be that they work for consensus in the community, not division (like corporations want). I can go on with the list indefinitely. But I am getting tired of distracting my work on HyperbolaBSD. Many hackers are being recruited and guided for learning to write the new kernel. > More importantly: why do you doubt what Deb says, and what so many other > women and femme individuals say? Do you think Deb stands to benefit > financially? (See below for a point > about the original "Witch Trials") > > Those are the ways I have felt bullied by you because I am part of the > community and because I have studied the facts of the case. I suggest > you take the legal route, if you really have a case against FSF or > against RMS. Stop the harrassment to the community and stop dividing > the movement. > > It saddens me that you continue to attempt to suppress these > conversations, instead of offering anything constructive -- as so many > others have done, with grace. Like Aaron and Thomas and so on. (Thank > you all for that!) I am not responsible for your happiness. I have offered solutions. But you will not take them. Harrassment continues. > If you really want to help the free software movement, look for common > objectives, not cancelling people. Work with what you can of RMS, > instead of focusing on what he is not able to provide for your > objectives. If you have no common objectives, work with others instead > of continuing this divisive attitude. > > > Should I abandon my values and stop promoting freedom? > > > > My understanding is that Deb expilained an important pattern of > > responses by many people who have the right to their psychological and > > personal safety in community spaces. So this does strike me as > > somewhat ironic. > > It is ok to express those feelings. It is not ok to harrass by > insistence on something that she knows will not be accepted for whatever > reason and making us look gloomy. It is not ok pressing others to > persecute people for their thoughts and expressions. > > These comments are clearly being shared in the interest of improving > the community. It's a shame you can't see that. But I can say > personally that I've benefited immensely from seeing these narratives > emerge, and the vision has been inspiring. We can treat people better > -- up to a point. Attacks are never in the benefit of the community. They divide it and benefit corporations. > We are not OK with a witch hunt. This was in the way it used to be in > Massachusets. But witch hunts are a thing of the past ... > > Do you know the actual history of witch hunts? They started because > men who owned land and were in power got "called out" by women for > adultery, philandering, and illicit business dealings. They talked > amongst themselves, as women tend to in communities, and word got > out. And as a way of seeking retribution, these same men began rumors > that the women were evil and needed to be killed, by fire. And the > rest you
Re: Support RMS
On Apr 15, 2021, Jean Louis wrote: > Alexandre Oliva, have you been on many Libreplanet videos, that you > can confirm how RMS yelled on public speakers and if that is so, can > we know which video is it? I recall witnessing him run to the microphone more than once to interact with speakers at LibrePlanet and elsewhere, and his speaking without yelling in those occasions. That is not supposed to mean that the reported incident hasn't happened, just that, if it did happen, I wasn't there. I believe that if I had witnessed it, I'd remember. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Alexandre Oliva, have you been on many Libreplanet videos, that you can confirm how RMS yelled on public speakers and if that is so, can we know which video is it? Deb Nicholson is bringing up the issue that was public, so if it was public, there are many Libreplanet participants, so let us understand what happened, and if it happened at all. * Deb Nicholson [2021-04-15 19:16]: >As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running >FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half >dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS >treating them differently, hitting on them at a conference, loudly >interrupting a young person's talk or involving them in a mortifying >public joke about virginity. In particular, I have had several young >women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because >RMS might yell at me." Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Alexandre Oliva [2021-04-16 01:19]: > On Apr 15, 2021, Jean Louis wrote: > > > Alexandre Oliva, have you been on many Libreplanet videos, that you > > can confirm how RMS yelled on public speakers and if that is so, can > > we know which video is it? > > I recall witnessing him run to the microphone more than once to interact > with speakers at LibrePlanet and elsewhere, and his speaking without > yelling in those occasions. > > That is not supposed to mean that the reported incident hasn't happened, > just that, if it did happen, I wasn't there. I believe that if I had > witnessed it, I'd remember. Thank you. I cannot see how possibly the number of all people ever interacting with one person can be comfortable at all times and in full agreement at all times. And Libreplanet has its purposes which RMS knows inside out, it will be quite logical and I am expectin RMS to speak, in fact I expect many other participants to speak as to forward purposes. If some public speech or approach by RMS does not align to purposes of Libreplanet, and in the same time it happens too many times, that would be something to discuss. Because I do not, and did not see such events, and nobody presented video excerpt when I asked, I can for now just imagine that disagreements by RMS are related to free software, maybe terminology and similar. Of course I have seen his funny reactions when speaker mentions "intellectual property" or when somebody speaks of "open source" or something similar like RMS being leader of "open source" as such organizators did not make their home work well. In general, there are many speakers that will do things in public that may be funny, exaggerated, that may represent strong critics, speakers will yell and similar, but I have to, and wish to understand if that belongs to disagreements on political issues, or it is something that belongs to lack of self-control and lack of respect to people. So far I could not, as being on distance, not get a single event of any such occurences and I find the complaints generalized and not specific. And I cannot see how possibly a public person can escape the fact that some of women approached will be discreet about those approaches. All that is human nature. But so far I do not see from stories anything that would ever justify public shaming, defamation and constant character ruin. In my personal work, I sometimes fetch 4800 people from a website and into the database on my computer, then I devise a process how to test these people for literacy, their ability to be attentive, tenacity, their intellectual capacity, and I give them a project that once finished would qualify them for partnership position in business. In that project I mention all possible details. From 1050+ people contacted from that list, though I have explained myself so well in the letter that is very personal, despite I have explained all kinds of businesses where I need those people to help me, and how I have found them and everything decent and kind, I will get about 3 people who will complain so harsh and attack me by all means feeling disrespected. And all what I tell them is "Hello, I have found your application for a job, please read my offer here and let me know if you are interested" -- they read the offer and may feel awful. Then I never let those people who feel so in their sad situation, regardless if their emotions are by no means caused by my actions. So I keep communicating, and at least try to find out what happened, and after a while 1 out of 3 persons will keep talking with me as person realized that emotional reaction was not appropriate to the situation. Those are just 3 extremes among 1050 people. By using the principles from Scientific Advertising book by Claud C. Hopkins I am extrapolating a ratio of such occurences. The extrapolated ratio will tell me what is going to happen with the rest of (- 4800 1050) ⇒ 3750 people. I can guess there will be about 10+ people who will give me that same emotional reaction that I myself find out of order. And no matter what I change on my side, there will be number of people complaining. Regarding approaches to women is very similar, even public people like RMS are attracted by other persons and approaches may be positively and negatively cause a reaction that people will like to share with other people. If such approach was verbal and discreet and then few women find it rather important to share with other people, their reactions are nothing that shall be relevant to the humanitarian and social work that RMS conducts, neither is relevant to this mailing list, and should not be the subject of second hand generalized story interpretations. In some countries people mate by approaching each other out of the blue on street and asking for appointment, there is acceptance and denial as outcome, but none of them will complain that approach happened. In some countries mating requires longer or more harmonized communication
Re: Support RMS
Hi, Deb, You shouldn't really expect anyone believe any of your far less over-the-top allegations, after you cried wolf putting your name under obviously false allegations, should you? Didn't you think ahead that you'd be ruining your reputation to the point that even any true allegations you might have would be harder to believe after that? Furthermore, what do any of the concerns you raised here have to do with his being a member of the board of the FSF? Do you expect that, if he were to resign from the board, he'd stop leading the movement, or the GNU project, or no longer be invited to speak at conferences all around the world? Even if someone were to take your allegations against the leader of the FS movement as true based on nothing but the word from an OSI associate, there's a total disconnect between them and the associated demands and expectations. Do you see that disconnect, and how it makes the whole thing come across as about control over the FSF (and, for some, GNU), and not at all about good manners in the FS movement? Of course some people may have been misled, or not understood the political context, but you? You've been involved in FLOSS politics for so long, you did great jobs in public communication, it's just too hard to believe that you didn't perceive these blatant disconnects, the huge gap between the allegations you bring up now and those you signed-off on in the hate letter you helped draft, while knowing them to be false! Now, you probably know that I've also arranged several of RMS's tours, had him stay at my place and of several other close people several times. I have heard and witnessed some of his weirdnesses. I have watched him get angry and ask to be left alone for a bit to put himself back together, and then getting more angry when people wouldn't leave him alone. I have seen him get very upset a number of times, when he made clear what he needed, and then someone tried to fool him and hoped he wouldn't notice. I have seen him at conferences, wanting to be left alone to work, and being constantly interrupted (harassed?) by a stream of requests for pictures and autographs, to the point of his nearly losing his temper. I have witnessed his staring habit about 25 years ago, I heard from friends who advised him about it and confirmed he'd succeeded in his effort to leave it behind 15 to 20 years ago, but instead of complimenting him for the effort and the success, you still hold on to it after all these years. I've witnessed him give a pleasure card to a state minister's wife, who was lead organizer of the conference in which it happened. He had handed them out to others, of all genders, before and after. Some people find that as suspicious as having a mattress in his office. Most others find tender embraces and sleeping on a mattress perfectly normal, inoffensive human behavior. Now, you know what has never happened to me? Get a complaint from someone at any of the events I co-organized or attended, about his asking someone on a date. Not once, in 16 years of close and relatively frequent face-to-face interactions with him, and even more with others who had been in his presence. It doesn't mean he hasn't asked people on dates, just that he wasn't impolite or inappropriate at it. I have heard complaints about other matters that are a lot less important, such as how often he showered, his noisy chewing, how much embarrassment he caused by explaining what an operating system was, to the person who asked a question using the phrase "Linux operating system", and to studends to whom the person taught operating systems. I have also read about people who took, and some who pretended to take offense at him after hearing or reading about misrepresentations or inventions of things he supposedly did, and those misrepresentations and inventions be taken completely out of proportion, and then be cited over and over as true, as if he'd really done something horrible. Like interrupting someone during a speech, or saying that the conference rules that stated that a room had to be vacated for the next speech did not apply because the room was not going to be used in the next slot. Like taking issue at the term "emacs virgin", but not at Virgin Mary, that inspired the joke, that's just as gendered and just as inoffensive. Like saying he defended serial rapist Epstein when he opposed accusation inflation against Minsky who turned out to be innocent. Like when a hate letter falsely labeled him sexist, paedophile, eugenist, and transphobe, over things he wrote that required a lot of twisting and ill intent to turn into those false narratives. Like when a joint letter labeled him unsuited to lead the movement he founded and brought from the ground up. Like when people got vindictive that the FSF still wanted to listen to him, and started threatening to leave the GNU project that he never stopped leading if that wouldn't be reversed. How does it even affect GNU?
Re: Support RMS
On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 11:24 PM Jean Louis wrote: * Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 08:21]: > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jean Louis wrote: > > > * Danny Spitzberg <[2]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 07:44]: > > > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > > > before RMS started yelling angrily. > > I don’t know where it is. Sorry, Jean! I can tell you RMS was sitting in > the back-left of room 123 of the MIT Stata Center, wearing a green collard > shirt, black pants, and no shoes or sandals or socks (I was not close > enough to smell his feet, however). I hope you’ll believe me all the > same. You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more free and some not. Jean, I mention the bare feet to suggest that my recollection of the story is accurate, and the point about smell was to add specificity to how close I was sitting. You assume too much. Would he be Muslim in some kind of a Muslim dress, would you value him for the merits or how he looks like... I am grown up in a place where we like to be comfortable, so in the bus, I will often take my shoes off to be comfortable, but even if it does not smell somebody will not like it. Yesterday I was in park as in my role as investor and I am sitting on ground with a lovely student just as I would be doing it with 14 years old, but somebody may not find it appropriate. I think those cultural things should not be subject of anything called "Planet" as if you truly want a planet, accept people how they are, and look for their merits, not personal choice of having sandals or not. Currently being located in Easter Africa, I can see many people walking barefoot, including in the rain, I see nice woman of about 22-25 walking barefoot on mud, I would do the same to join her. Before few days receptionist brings me food to my lodge room and I receive him naked and he does not mind. Further, that somebody does not have sandals and is sitting behind is nothing that may be compared to what you say unwelcoming. What would be unwelcoming is when RMS would have no sandals and would be demanding that everybody entering the room should have no sandals. You see, me personally, not being same as you, I would not mind when people don't wear sandals, as I am planetary citizen, and I believe you can be the same. There are larger rooms and public spaces here in Uganda where you need to put your shoes outside before entering to keep the space cleaner, I do not say it is really objectively cleaner, but I am giving you example of planetary differences in human interactions or intermixed behavior. Your personal impression does not yet not even closely justify ability of RMS to speak for FSF, neither justify public shamings. What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn what our planet really is. I’ve traveled extensively, thank you. It has indeed been revealing. I especially appreciate visiting with people who are kind and capable leaders, who practice nonviolence and take a cooperative approach. Also, it’s nice when people take a stance against free software being used by armed forces and militaries... but that’s another topic. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: [3]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman [4]https://stallmansupport.org/ [5]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ References 1. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 2. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 3. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns 4. https://stallmansupport.org/ 5. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Thanks for writing this Aaron, it’s nicely balanced. I am merely an associate member who knows not a soul in FSF outside of subscribing to this list, but I very much believe in the four freedoms and am eternally grateful for RMS. I think Deb shows courage. In addition, she is respectful and precise, which is all one can hope for in an interlocutor, especially in a debate of this magnitude. It’s embarrassing that many of her opponents are neither. When I read arguments like Ali’s calling women who don’t want to be hit on to ask security for help it’s all I can do not to cancel my membership. What passes for logic is embarrassing among those of us who profess to be experts in it. On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 13:39, Aaron Wolf <[1]wolft...@riseup.net> wrote: Thomas, I imagine Deb posting here to share her thoughts on the ways she sees RMS as a problem for the movement, but she's not saying that it personally drives her away from the movement. She's been involved in various orgs like Software Freedom Conservancy and is now at the OSI. I think her point is to help people simply understand the concerns about RMS that are not related to the unfair stuff around his political views. On a side note, I very much appreciated your description of your own dealings with RMS, and I see some merit to your points. I don't see myself as on one or the other "side" of this debate. I think we're all in this together, and I think if we can get past (or through) our initial reactiveness to things we read or hear, we can end up finding common understandings to help us work together best. Maybe the most productive outcome is some situation where the FSF and RMS do continue with only some reforms and still with RMS' leadership and antagonism dies down over time, and different aspects of the movement collaborate constructively. Maybe it's not absolutely hopeless to end up with RMS continuing to provide his positive inputs without turning people away. Certainly that's my wish, but I don't know that to be realistic. On 2021-04-15 10:23 a.m., Thomas Lord wrote: > > You seem to be complaining that you can not work on > free software without closely associating with the FSF. > > That seems nonsensical. What's stopping you? > > -t > > > On 2021-04-15 09:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: >> Hi, >>As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours >> running >>FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half >>dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS >>treating them differently, hitting on them at a conference, loudly >>interrupting a young person's talk or involving them in a mortifying >>public joke about virginity. In particular, I have had several young >>women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because >>RMS might yell at me." >>Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to >>these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software >>representatives were awful to them. Having a leader who inspires >> others >>to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net >>positive for the free software movement. >>Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the >>people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives >>choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer >> time? >>I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still >>support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be >>much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting >>people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement. We should >>be able to work on free software without that gate. >>You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that >>it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have >>spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software >>*with RMS.* He hasn't listened. It's completely false to draw a >>parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete >> strangers at >>an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free >> software >>supporters. >>RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving it and >>that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the struggle >>for freedom though. And
Re: Support RMS
* Deb Nicholson [2021-04-15 19:16]: > As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running > FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half > dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS > treating them differently, hitting on them at a conference, loudly > interrupting a young person's talk or involving them in a mortifying > public joke about virginity. So it is more than 6 people that told you stories about RMS treating them differently. If those people wish to participate here, so let them make their stories here themselves, why you speak for them? It is very obvious that your interpretation of their stories is not first hand experience, so please don't represent people. Why you did not say how many people found RMS good? Or you just listened to those more than 6 people? RMS is speaker, when there is important issue at hand I can understand that somebody may be interrupted. Speeches are normally organized with purpose to spread free software philosophy. Because you did not describe any of the contexts involved in those more than 6 people, it sounds not plausible. There is no weight to those empty accusations. You are welcome to make your story better, provide the context. Like for example, why exactly was young man interrupted? > In particular, I have had several young > women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because > RMS might yell at me." What an empty accusation. I have watched LibrePlanet videos, they are online and transparent. Please can you point out by providing a reference to video that we see on which person RMS yelled during speech? > Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to > these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software > representatives were awful to them. Having a leader who inspires others > to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net > positive for the free software movement. That is so blinking unbelievable. As I said, because things are on video, why don't you provide video, like show us some true fact. > Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the > people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives > choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer > time? For now we have a story of people without names, who only you know, as they complained to you, but there is no single fact recorded on video, and you know all their private issues so well that you know they will not donate. If you know their financial interests, then you know their phone numbers. Call them, and let them tell here in open what happened, that we know more than these pretty empty accusations. I am sorry Deb, I have got good feeling that all what you want is to accuse and annoy. I truly wish that you prove the opposite, and I am giving you way, instead of generalizations, show us the video where LibrePlanet speaker is yelled on by RMS. I definitely want to understand if such yelling ever happened, and what was it. I wish to judge it too. As the reason you bring those issues in public is for public to judge but if you don't show the video, then we cannot judge nothing, in other words, your accusations are empty unless you can prove it. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Aaron Wolf [2021-04-15 20:59]: > Maybe the most productive outcome is some situation where the FSF and > RMS do continue with only some reforms and still with RMS' leadership > and antagonism dies down over time, and different aspects of the > movement collaborate constructively. Maybe it's not absolutely hopeless > to end up with RMS continuing to provide his positive inputs without > turning people away. Certainly that's my wish, but I don't know that to > be realistic. Aaron, please help me, do you have personal experience how RMS turns people away? Or you just echo what somebody said? Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson wrote: > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve former FSF > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at conferences or MIT > and many, many free software creators. That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into account, before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and attackers, and before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and distortions to spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have failed to spark. These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the legitimacy of claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those of the corporate-funded coalition. That may be illogical, but it's often a valuable heuristics. Call it karma if you wish. Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual sexual harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight from the source. Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on dates, keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the existence of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution against leaps to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry and being loud are not it IMHO. Hearsay about the same half dozen rumors over a period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own investigations haven't hit a dead end before something concrete popped up. I encourage you to let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me on copy. > The vast majority of the people who signed the letter asking for RMS > to step down, care deeply about free software. I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of associating with historical opponents, and working so hard to divide us. It's become really hard to believe in that commitment, and in good intentions behind the actions, given the present circumstances. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Hi, Deb, On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson wrote: > As for a hostile environment, I have witnessed repeated hostility > (bullying, ad hominem attacks, dog-piling, etc.) on the GNU mailing lists. That's undeniable, though people very often dismiss hostility they agree with, or perceive as justified. Attacking, and then denouncing the defense as hostile, is unfortunately quite common, and I don't think it can be assigned to malice. It takes real effort to perceive that in one's own actions. It's much easier to feel the hurt when someone steps on your toes than when you step on someone else's. > Those are hostile acts. You may say they are > justified, but they are undeniably hostile. As is an open letter mislabeling someone sexist, paedophile, eugenist and transphobe. It is an extremely hostile act. You may say it is justified, but it is undeniably hostile. What's more, a lot of people, even ones who have interacted closely with RMS for a long time, who disagree that it is justified. But people who purport it as justified come across to me as loving the movement he founded so much that they'd rather destroy it than allow him to participate in it. > I'm not "coming here." I've always been here. But you realize who started building this "here" you've "always" been in, right? You realize he started it from scratch, right? Why should you and those who share your positions be entitled to tell him to move over so you can take it from here, while most people who took a public stand are saying the opposite? If you were to prevail, what makes you think we'd stick with you, instead of moving over along with the founding leader? Are you familiar with concept of filter bubbles, that boosts people's power to select and bias opinions they are exposed to, leading to self-reinforcement of distorted perceptions, extremism, and disbelief in accurate information that challenges the perceptions derived from opinions within one's self-selected bubble? > break the trust that donors and volunteers have place[d] in the > organization and they have a right to speak up about it. And speak up they did. Despite loud complaints, a supermajority (over 2/3) has supported the leadership that has been in place for over 35 years. Though feedback is always welcome, it would break the trust of most past donors if some loud individuals were to overthrow it and install a hostile one over mostly false and shocking accusations disguising some real discomfort and intolerance. -- Alexandre Oliva, happy hacker https://FSFLA.org/blogs/lxo/ Free Software Activist GNU Toolchain Engineer Vim, Vi, Voltei pro Emacs -- GNUlius Caesar ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Hello Thomas, the debate will end when people have exchanged enough, your email and story is valuable for better understanding. I have asked Deb for something like that. * Thomas Lord [2021-04-14 23:23]: > The raising of voices in conversation does not have a context > independent or culturally universal emotional valence. For > some it is normal and expected. For some it borders on a > taboo. That I got to know in East Africa, as if there is danger, emergency, urgency, there will be shouting, and some people instead of getting alert and acting faster will be prone to rather leave thinking solely for their own feelings. But that other people suffered for their actions or lack of actions, who cares... In Europe, in various organization where it was clear what is the purpose we are doing, we may shout on each other as much as we want, and we achieve goals, alter we go swimming together. Shouting is not necessarily in all contexts bad, and depends from person to person. > Here is a story that might help: Long ago, in the very early > days of the FSF, I was an employee and there was more or less > one person handling most of the operational day to day > corporate business. One day, I had done something that > (understandably) pissed RMS off. You see: after a brief chat > with a board member other than RMS, I unilaterally decided to > work remotely. I can totally understand, but I would never do so too slightly, I would look into purposes of the organization, did I do something that was aligned with to me well known purposes? If so, I would retract it, and keep doing actions aligned with purposes of the group I said to support. But would I do something that was aligned with purposes of organization, or even with my own purposes, but it comes into conflict with organizational purposes, then I would like to tell it in transparent and would speak with proper person or staff responsible for that matter. Not with everybody. > I packed up and moved several states away, almost overnight, to be > near my sweetheart (who is now my wife - it's a very romantic > story, in retrospect). I did not notify RMS I was doing this. It > upset him. He called and yelled. I was very distressed by this - In each organization there are people. Though we work under pretense of legal entities such as foundations and companies, we are people who have relations between each other. When person leaves suddenly it is negatively impacting the organization, and whoever welcomed you will also feel or could feel sudden distrust for no good reason. I don't say it is true or not, but those could be feelings. I have employed people and offered them best opportunities in life, and yet, for silly reason, one of girls wanted to go home, and this pulled the other one. It impacts life of everybody, they lose the job for rash decisions and so on. Other few times, some people said they go to visit family while in reality they just wanted to depart without saying clearly good bye. Those are few examples from my real life. I know how it is when people incorrectly end up their relations. This also applies in private life. We shall remember that handling people is no easy task and upsets are in just every organization in the world, we are not Theresa, but even Mother Theresa was getting upset. Judging person's emotional upset out of the context is what is wrong. If we wish to talk about RMS, let us have clear story like this one, to understand the context and what really happened. > I didn't expect it at all. I sought and received consel -- very > good consel -- from that woman who was running the day to day > business. "Just hang up on him if he gets like that," she > advised. Later I understood this could be generalized: walk away, > if need be. One can also really productively engage, sometimes, > also, just by yelling back if you have something relevant and > coherent to say. As an older person now, I realize that part of > RMS' reputation comes from him being actually a better and more > dynamic conversationalist than most people have ever met -- and > yes, that can be hard to come to grip with at first. I know some people who would be upset and yell on me, and I have not reacted that way, rather listened, understood what happened, and if it was really me, I would turn new page. Somehow, due to parents raising me that way, I always assumed that people with which I work with are of good faith, and worthy to understand, so I have not been putting much attention if somebody shouted or not, rather listened to understand what is wrong. As an apprentice I had people who clearly had problems expressing themselves proper for my educational level at the time. The key to any upsets is to talk about it. > This doesn't mean that RMS or anyone has free reign to be a > constant holy terror, always screaming and yelling, but that > is not what I ever saw RMS do and is not what any of the >
Re: Support RMS
* Aaron Wolf [2021-04-16 09:05]: > I see boy-cried-wolf dynamics at play in all this. And there *are* > witch-hunt dynamics. Aaron, from conversation with Deb, Danny and Alexander, I can see there are some problems that some people experience, and I am sure that there is no perfect public speaker, but those problems so far I have understood from asking and getting questions are so rare, that they cannot find it on video, and number of people complained about interruption of women being approached is so slow. So I keep the summary of fact finding here: - not first hand, but second hand story exist of more than 6 people who told how they did not find something appropriate, none of those people ever talked about it on this mailing list, and we do not know their names; there is mentioning of virgin jokes; we know that it is impossible for everybody to find something funny, it is how it is; there is mentioning of women being approached by RMS, but nothing so far illegal or problematic. There are no evidences for those, as those are second hand stories, not first hand stories; - RMS once interrupted young man in speech; and will continue doing so most probably when there are frictions in the context of free software; it comes from second hand story, but is very irrelevant as one can assume that in debates people interrupt each other; - RMS did not wear sandals; Danny did not smell his feet; as she was not so close to RMS; question is how did she see RMS not having sandals if she was not that close; that is one first hand experience that I find proper to mention; - RMS talked angrily from behind on Libreplanet 2018, but there is no URL to the video yet, please find the URL here: https://libreplanet.org/2018/program/ like which video was it> Is there something I missed? Please add more to it, let us make a list that is of first hand experiences as when people bring generalizations into public space and call for virtual character lynch, then it is best to bring the specifics, that we demonstrate we are better than the mob dynamics. I think that it is good to speak to Deb and Danny, but what I find kind of tiresome is to get the fact finding straight, but I am thankful that they brought it up in better detailed manner; now I am experiencing it as cultural differences, clash of different behavior; and I still cannot see how those personal disagreements on how human should behave are in conflict with the overall job done; I hope both of them will tell us more particulars. RMS have merits. Those personal disagreements do not justify character assassination and destruction of created merits. The outcome is far worse than what accusers wanted to bring up as an issue. Accusers are doing that what they are accusing others for. Aaron, I do not experience any war of people, neither much of conflict, what I experience is lack of communication between people and lack of tolerance to understand differences between people. For me it summarizes that people don't travel enough. They come to Libreplanet, not understanding the actual planet. Travel more, visit India, go through slam streets of Nagpur, eat with people who have long and dirty nails, swim naked in lakes around Oslo in Norway, or turban wound and face covered Muslim women serving in post offices, visit some mosques, Greece, Africa, nudist beaches in Croatia, South America, go around the world, dance and sing with people, do some projects together. Get a different view point. Libreplanet conference is not my home, I am meeting variety of people and is impossible that it fulfils my personal expectations. Maybe for Deb, Danny or others, this may be also disappointing effect due to affection to RMS, as maybe they had illusion that RMS is more than human. This is similar effect with any public or prominent person. We love them until we meet them, as then we may find something not appropriate for us personally, and start talking about it to others. In general I see these issues as unspoken communication that has to be spoken out once in a while. When people cannot speak their mind out in the moment, they will tend to speak about it later to other people. But problems are solved better if those who feel in some way offended when they speak to the alleged offender themselves. Lack of confrontation in communication is what makes them lose self esteem and they may need years to speak out what happened to them. But those personal experiences do not justify character assassinations. I would like to know more about those anecdotes. > I do not feel comfortable naming names because I do not have > permission to share stories that were told to me privately. And why you did it? I don't value any generalizations, pumped up stories, drama without end. Please be concrete and do it how Danny did it. I know people like to talk behind the back, but why not say: - do you have first hand personal experience? Tell us the story. - to be
Re: Support RMS
* Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 09:48]: > > You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more > > free and some not. > > Jean, I mention the bare feet to suggest that my recollection of the story > is accurate, and the point about smell was to add specificity to how close > I was sitting. You assume too much. How do I who read your story, can know that you are proving to yourself, not to readers, how it is accurate. To prove to readers, please find some other person who remembers bare feet, than also that angrily talking, that we can understand objectively what was said and why. Can you finally find which session was it: https://media.libreplanet.org/u/libreplanet/collection/libreplanet-2018-videos-and-slides/ > > What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn what > > our planet really is. > > I’ve traveled extensively, thank you. It has indeed been revealing. I > especially appreciate visiting with people who are kind and capable > leaders, who practice nonviolence and take a cooperative approach. Also, > it’s nice when people take a stance against free software being used by > armed forces and militaries... but that’s another topic. You have to travel to cultures not similar to yours, not like Western-style of cultures, try Greece, Sicily, Turkey, visit people in their homes, eat with them, understand differences. Now by saying people who are kind and capable leaders, do you wish to imply that RMS is not kind and capable leader? On majority of public speeches RMS appears kind and that he is capable, there is result speaking for itself, we would not have GNU without RMS, we would not have Linux kernel without RMS speaking on University in Helsinki where Linus decided to license it under GPL, as it was proprietary in the first place; there would be neither FSF neither the Libreplanet. You can I hope, realize, how much is that all caused by RMS and his delegation of responsibilities to other people. That RMS is capable is out of question for me, you can speak about behavior, but there is no way to convince those having analytical skills that RMS is not capable. That RMS is not capable is a point that accusers wish to make, and that is the lie. But they cannot make it objectively. Now in your stories of seeing leaders kind and capable, you did not tell us how much of first hand experience you have with those leaders in other countries as compared to RMS. As I know many leaders who are kind in public, but they are tigers in the activities behind, and not everybody like to work with tigers. Leaders accomplish so much more than other people, they focus and sacrifice much more than common people. They may behave quite inadequate to many around them who are by mistake with them. I say by mistake, because leaders technically, cannot work with everybody. They have to choose those who understand their purposes fully and can equally act with them. It is an information warfare. Why generals have their officers to work with them? Why generals don't interact directly with soldiers in hierarchy? This is because there are transitions between people, generals can possibly speak to officers around them, but cannot speak to soldiers, as their viewpoints cannot be easily explained, they have to be dissected. Those who work with RMS and fail to work truly on purpose are by mistake there, they have to be on some other place. Either do the work properly, or resign and do something else. > Also, it’s nice when people take a stance against free software > being used by armed forces and militaries... but that’s another > topic. It is not, it is quite good place for a topic. And I find it good that you disclose this. This is type of disagreements that I have mentioned previously today where personal disagreements are influencing judgments about legal behavior of somebody else, this case RMS. IMHO, your personal political issues you have not expressed enough, and you have disagreements, but instead of expressing your personal issues, you attack the other person, in this case RMS. This may be not conscious on your part. I may be wrong, but that is what impression I get now. Maybe you don't see it, but you are on Libreplanet for what? Are you for free software or not? If you are, then why would be nice to take a stance against free software being used in armed forces and militaries? It is not other topic, it is very related. Maybe you never understood what is free software. It may be used to kill somebody, that is why it is free software. It may be used to run the machines that penetrate women vagina or automatically ejaculate penises, it may be used to open and close doors of slaves' cages trafficked for sex, it may be used to automate vehicles that deliver dead bodies into mass graves. While those are mostly immoral inhumane issues (except the machine) that is what free software is for. If you advocate in FSF or on this mailing list that it would be nice to forbid software
Re: Support RMS
* Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 01:35]: > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:19 PM Alexandre Oliva wrote: > > > On Apr 15, 2021, Jean Louis wrote: > > > > > Alexandre Oliva, have you been on many Libreplanet videos, that you > > > can confirm how RMS yelled on public speakers and if that is so, can > > > we know which video is it? > > > > I recall witnessing him run to the microphone more than once to interact > > with speakers at LibrePlanet and elsewhere, and his speaking without > > yelling in those occasions. > > > > That is not supposed to mean that the reported incident hasn't happened, > > just that, if it did happen, I wasn't there. I believe that if I had > > witnessed it, I'd remember. > > > I’ve shared the story before, but at Libre Planet 2018 RMS began yelling > angrily from his seat in the back of the auditorium, a few seats away from > me and a now-former FSF staff member, and then rushed the stage to grab the > mic and berate the speaker who was airing very reasonable and rational (not > emotional!) ideas for building the free software movement. So which URL is that, that we can understand the disagreement, as you just describe emotion, not the reason. Let me see the URL. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
nization and a > movement. I look at results, whatever he was doing, there are huge planetary results impacting so many people, educating and helping people understand freedom. What you are looking at are his approaches to women, maybe you have issues there, maybe sandals, maybe interruption of speech. Please. Those are uncomparable things. > Jean, by your logic ... RMS is capable of creating GNU. But you seem to > appreciate that there are a great many people with commitment and integrity > and capabilities of their own who do **not** find it functional to be in a > community that denies any possibility of dysfunction. Who is disallowing you to be in community? What you are actually saying, is that you are not at all close to RMS like right now, but you would like to be close to RMS, but without RMS. WTF! Nobody is telling you should not be part of community, so be. Who is, is anybody forcing you to interact with people you don't like to interact? Don't interact, get your own life. Nobody is forsing you anything, but then please be kind and stop imposing your view on others as not everybody shares your views. Yes, fine, that public character assassination letters was signed by thousand, but also support RMS letter was signed https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ by several more thousands. Not everybody supports such vague statements. And despite those accusations have been proven factually wrong here https://stallmansupport.org/ not a single one of the accusers excused themselves and said sorry. I would not like such people leading any organization. We already discussed RMS being able to recognize or grasp things and say sorry. When did you say sorry for whatever nonsense? You as accusers just find it right to behave how you wish and want, accuse others of doing the same pattern of behavior you have. > But a few years ago I brought up the question of free software and > weapons of war. People on a list said, "Hey, get politics out of > free software! All that matters are the four freedoms" Exactly. As if you touch that, you touch Freedom 0 - to use the software how one wish and wants. Which also implies you never accepted Freedom 0 and this is not place to present your ideas on changing Freedom 0. > I believe that style of reactionary stance appears far too often in the > free software community for it to gain more members, to grow as a movement. > > And that is why I was initially drawn to Libre Planet and FSF. Welcome, not everything is how you wish and want, research more. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jean Louis wrote: > > > * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 07:44]: > > > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > > > before RMS started yelling angrily. > > I don’t know where it is. Sorry, Jean! I can tell you RMS was sitting in > the back-left of room 123 of the MIT Stata Center, wearing a green collard > shirt, black pants, and no shoes or sandals or socks (I was not close > enough to smell his feet, however). I hope you’ll believe me all the > same. You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more free and some not. Would he be Muslim in some kind of a Muslim dress, would you value him for the merits or how he looks like... I am grown up in a place where we like to be comfortable, so in the bus, I will often take my shoes off to be comfortable, but even if it does not smell somebody will not like it. Yesterday I was in park as in my role as investor and I am sitting on ground with a lovely student just as I would be doing it with 14 years old, but somebody may not find it appropriate. I think those cultural things should not be subject of anything called "Planet" as if you truly want a planet, accept people how they are, and look for their merits, not personal choice of having sandals or not. Currently being located in Easter Africa, I can see many people walking barefoot, including in the rain, I see nice woman of about 22-25 walking barefoot on mud, I would do the same to join her. Before few days receptionist brings me food to my lodge room and I receive him naked and he does not mind. Further, that somebody does not have sandals and is sitting behind is nothing that may be compared to what you say unwelcoming. What would be unwelcoming is when RMS would have no sandals and would be demanding that everybody entering the room should have no sandals. You see, me personally, not being same as you, I would not mind when people don't wear sandals, as I am planetary citizen, and I believe you can be the same. There are larger rooms and public spaces here in Uganda where you need to put your shoes outside before entering to keep the space cleaner, I do not say it is really objectively cleaner, but I am giving you example of planetary differences in human interactions or intermixed behavior. Your personal impression does not yet not even closely justify ability of RMS to speak for FSF, neither justify public shamings. What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn what our planet really is. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 07:44]: > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > before RMS started yelling angrily. So please, where is the URL? -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Alexandre Oliva [2021-04-16 01:40]: > People who believe them are likely to be turned away not just from the > FSF, but from any public appearance by RMS as leader or regular > participant in the movement he founded. > > If we accept the premise that RMS's misbehavior drives people away, then > attributing far worse misbehavior to him drives more people away from > the movement. Exactly that is what I argue for, I just did not express it well enough. > Conversely, people who do NOT believe the false accusations perceive > intolerance and a toxic atmosphere being supported by a significant > fraction of the movement. > > If we accept the premise that misbehavior attributed to RMS drives > people away, then it's hard to dispute that the displays of intolerance > and toxic atmosphere will also drive people away, probably in a larger > magnitude. Yes. However, I have impression that it is just few people who initiate and drive others to kind of "join" but those others don't have first person experiences. It seem to me that group of these people abusively, not rationally, pick on RMS for reason of being human. There is no possible way that RMS will agree with everybody, especially RMS, but I have been watching Libreplanet videos, I did not see none of them spoiled for some unreasonable behavior. I rather find behavior of initiators of defaming and character assassinations rather psychotic more sociopath in this sense, lacking empathy to such a high degree. What you explain in this email is exactly reasonable empathy, you analyse the effect on both sides, you can feel for this and the other side. That is opposite and in contrast to those very few who initiated character assassination. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Alexandre Oliva [2021-04-16 02:37]: > I've witnessed such a silence in the audience in one occasion in which > he let out a tasteless pun, caught himself a moment too late and paused > for a bit, seemingly embarrased and asking for forgiveness, while the > audience had that sort of silence of shock and uncertainty as to what to > do next. As somebody who worked as public performer since my 14th year, I may say there is no way for any public speaker neither performer to be perfect at all times. Interacting with audience is a skill that one acquires through practice, nobody has it natively. What really matters is not one pun or something, that caused few moments of silence, but the number of speeches delivered and number of people attended free software speeches. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Deb Nicholson [2021-04-14 23:01]: > Hi, > It will not matter how many examples I produce, if you consider "shouting > at people in public" acceptable behavior. I do not know what you mean with "shouting at people in public". I asked for example, but there is no example. LOL. First time you said it little different, now you turn it to me this way. You play with words. I already said, show me, as if it was on public, where is the video. I want to see if that shouting is justified for this much of circus created here. Defamation in writing may be so much more damaging than a single protest where you feel it is shouting. > There are many collections of examples of RMS's unacceptable > behavior and if you have discounted all of them, then you will > discount all of mine too. So is that reason why you cannot now provide one single reference that we can see? Or you avoid providing it, or you don't have? Or you just speak generally, but you don't know? > It might be interesting to think about why that is and if there is > some behavior you would find unacceptable from RMS or a person whose > word you would believe? Instead of rhetoric, just show me what you mean, do you have URL? > I can't share the GNU maintainer mailing lists because they are not and > never have been public. > I will not waste any more of my time trying to change your mind. But I am eager to change my mind, I just don't know what you speak about. When asked to show the reference, or evidences, you just speak of excuses. Sorry, that will make it not more right. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Alexandre Oliva [2021-04-16 01:40]: > That's why I find it so hard to believe that the poeple carrying out > these actions are acting out of love for the Free Software movement. > Even if they were sure their actions would manage to deprive the whole > movement from RMS's alleged negative influence, getting him to commit > suicide or somesuch, we'd lose the "stallman was right" wisdom, and get > the negative publicity of being such a toxic environment that the > founder was driven to suicide. And since their actions have failed, > we're left with a defamed leader, a divided community, and a large > number of lying and toxic participants who purport to have acted in good > faith for the movement, but that were only competent enough to have > caused great damage :-( I find it so, thank you. It also very hard to believe that those people express their opinions against RMS only on the subject of RMS's behavior --- I see those expressions rather corrupt by few personal intentions of accuser's who fundamentally disagree with RMS at some political issues. Example is proprietary vs. free software. RMS and FSF do not use proprietary software, but maybe some FSF members will use it in their private or non-FSF activities. This does not matter as in GNU environment we do not look into those issues, rather into the purpose to build fully free operating systems. But it is unbelievable to me that there is or cannot be any fundamental conflict related to free software and that accusers are only speaking of RMS' behavior. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Aaron, there is no resolution. They have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they do not want and will not enter into any resolution. It's never been about resolution, though, but attack. The intent is to destroy free software for the benefit of corporate vultures. Paraphrasing Mark 6:11 and Proverbs 10:18 - And verily I say unto ye - he that conceals hatred has lying lips, and he who spreads slander is a fool. For St. IGNUcius shall shake off the dust under his feet for a testimony against ye. And ye who blaspheme [[1]https://rms-open-letter.github.io/] can never fill his shoes. Enough fun for the day. I'm off to work on GNU C-Graph! Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [5]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ 2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 3. http://codeartnow.com/ 4. http://www.abertheid.info/ 5. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
> "I would LOVE to be in a free software community where people are more productive than ideological, more consensus-oriented than close-minded and defensive. " Is there something stopping you from going and building what you want to see? Instead of spending time here tearing down others?There is not. You have a more ethical option than to persist in what you are currently doing. -t On 2021-04-16 15:12, Danny Spitzberg wrote: Based on the last few messages, it seems to me like FSF should switch from nonprofit incorporation and re-register with the government as a cult or religion. I hear the tax benefits are comparable, and the scrutiny into abusive behavior is far less too. Famous examples of financing include the Boston Catholic Church, Scientology, Rajneeshpuram -- why not GNUtopia too? And to those that think I want to remove RMS. It's not all about him! As I said earlier and several times, and as others have too, it's the enablers who refuse to hear any constructive criticism. I would LOVE to be in a free software community where people are more productive than ideological, more consensus-oriented than close-minded and defensive. Thomas, perhaps you are a voice of reason in all of this? On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 2:56 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <[1]adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote: > * Danny Spitzberg <[2]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 08:21]: > "(I was not close enough to smell his feet, however)" Paraphrasing the gospel of Luke 7:36-39: And behold - one of those in the Free/Libre Software community who was a sinner shall stand at his feet weeping, and shall wash his feet with tears, and wipe them with the hairs of his/her head, and kiss his feet and anoint them with ointment ... for s/he is a sinner who has blasphemed against St. IGNUcius of EMACS. Danny, next time you're fortunate enough to sit by RMS' feet, be cognisant of your status in the presence of the man who revolutionised the software industry by giving users freedom! - "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3-5) :-) Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [3]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [4]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [5]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [6]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. mailto:adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com 2. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 3. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 4. http://codeartnow.com/ 5. http://www.abertheid.info/ 6. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Aaron, there is no resolution. They have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they do not want and will not enter into any resolution. Therefore, it is now a question of whether or not they will allow others to work in peace without them. -t On 2021-04-16 15:04, Aaron Wolf wrote: Thomas, I respect many of the things you have said, and I also think we should all be hesitant to string this on and on and on. However, I do not support your proposition that people just leave or that the threads are nothing but absurdity. For any movement to be strong, it has to be capable of grappling with difficult controversy and not just pushing it away. The RMS critics themselves want RMS gone because they too share your wish to just make uncomfortable things just stop. But they don't. We don't resolve this by artificially marking the conversation as done or won't-fix or resolved before it actually is. Perhaps we could propose alternative ways to go forward such as using IRC (which doesn't pollute the email list), replying privately more often, and indeed letting things go when there's nothing constructive to say. But we better use this moment to continue to improve how we communicate if we are to come out of this stronger instead of weaker. IMO, the best direction is neither just stop discussion nor is it to just continue indefinitely. Although a pause for a while might well be good, as might taking things to other spaces. On 2021-04-16 2:49 p.m., Thomas Lord wrote: I may have attributed the foot smell comment to the wrong person. Sorry, if so. Whoever said it, these threads have gone beyond absurd, and beyond even any pretense of basic decency, nevermind seriously minded activism. Will people please move on from these topics, and those who aren't satisfied, please just exercise your freedom not to associate with the FSF. There is a global pandemic. There is a global climate emergency. Both of those are areas where software freedom can help quite a bit. There is a big crisis in the capitalist markets around mass surveillance, centralized (dis-)services, and so on. These are real crises for software freedom. There is so much our already existing stock of software can do that people aren't using it for - and this too is a crisis/opportunity for software freedom. There is a question of how to have libre planet when air travel is ecologically insane and so forth -- that's another relevant topic to talk about. Stop with the trolling about RMS, and trolling is about what it has boiled down to at this point. -t On 2021-04-16 14:04, Thomas Lord wrote: * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: "(I was not close enough to smell his feet, however)" Please get off this list. There is no place for such infintile rudeness. -t On 2021-04-15 23:22, Jean Louis wrote: * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jean Louis wrote: > * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 07:44]: > > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > > before RMS started yelling angrily. I don’t know where it is. Sorry, Jean! I can tell you RMS was sitting in the back-left of room 123 of the MIT Stata Center, wearing a green collard shirt, black pants, and no shoes or sandals or socks (I was not close enough to smell his feet, however). I hope you’ll believe me all the same. You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more free and some not. Would he be Muslim in some kind of a Muslim dress, would you value him for the merits or how he looks like... I am grown up in a place where we like to be comfortable, so in the bus, I will often take my shoes off to be comfortable, but even if it does not smell somebody will not like it. Yesterday I was in park as in my role as investor and I am sitting on ground with a lovely student just as I would be doing it with 14 years old, but somebody may not find it appropriate. I think those cultural things should not be subject of anything called "Planet" as if you truly want a planet, accept people how they are, and look for their merits, not personal choice of having sandals or not. Currently being located in Easter Africa, I can see many people walking barefoot, including in the rain, I see nice woman of about 22-25 walking barefoot on mud, I would do the same to join her. Before few days receptionist brings me food to my lodge room and I receive him naked and he does not mind. Further, that somebody does not have sandals and is sitting behind is nothing that may be compared to what you say unwelcoming. What would be unwelcoming is when RMS would have no sandals and would be demanding that everybody entering the room should have no sandals. You see, me personally, not being same as you, I would not mind when people don't wear sandals, as I am planetary citizen, and I believe you can be the same. There are larger rooms and public spaces here in Uganda where you need to put your shoes outside
Re: Support RMS
Thomas, I respect many of the things you have said, and I also think we should all be hesitant to string this on and on and on. However, I do not support your proposition that people just leave or that the threads are nothing but absurdity. For any movement to be strong, it has to be capable of grappling with difficult controversy and not just pushing it away. The RMS critics themselves want RMS gone because they too share your wish to just make uncomfortable things just stop. But they don't. We don't resolve this by artificially marking the conversation as done or won't-fix or resolved before it actually is. Perhaps we could propose alternative ways to go forward such as using IRC (which doesn't pollute the email list), replying privately more often, and indeed letting things go when there's nothing constructive to say. But we better use this moment to continue to improve how we communicate if we are to come out of this stronger instead of weaker. IMO, the best direction is neither just stop discussion nor is it to just continue indefinitely. Although a pause for a while might well be good, as might taking things to other spaces. On 2021-04-16 2:49 p.m., Thomas Lord wrote: > I may have attributed the foot smell comment to the wrong > person. Sorry, if so. > > Whoever said it, these threads have gone beyond absurd, and beyond > even any pretense of basic decency, nevermind seriously > minded activism. > > Will people please move on from these topics, and those who > aren't satisfied, please just exercise your freedom not to > associate with the FSF. > > There is a global pandemic. There is a global climate emergency. > Both of those are areas where software freedom can help > quite a bit. There is a big crisis in the capitalist markets > around mass surveillance, centralized (dis-)services, and so on. > These are real crises for software freedom. There is so much our > already existing stock of software can do that people aren't > using it for - and this too is a crisis/opportunity for software > freedom. There is a question of how to have libre planet when > air travel is ecologically insane and so forth -- that's another > relevant topic to talk about. > > Stop with the trolling about RMS, and trolling is about what it has > boiled down to at this point. > > -t > > > > On 2021-04-16 14:04, Thomas Lord wrote: >>> * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: >>> "(I was not close enough to smell his feet, however)" >> >> >> Please get off this list. There is no place for such infintile >> rudeness. >> >> >> -t >> >> >> >> >> On 2021-04-15 23:22, Jean Louis wrote: >>> * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jean Louis wrote: > * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 07:44]: > > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > > before RMS started yelling angrily. I don’t know where it is. Sorry, Jean! I can tell you RMS was sitting in the back-left of room 123 of the MIT Stata Center, wearing a green collard shirt, black pants, and no shoes or sandals or socks (I was not close enough to smell his feet, however). I hope you’ll believe me all the same. >>> >>> You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more >>> free and some not. Would he be Muslim in some kind of a Muslim dress, >>> would you value him for the merits or how he looks like... >>> >>> I am grown up in a place where we like to be comfortable, so in the >>> bus, I will often take my shoes off to be comfortable, but even if it >>> does not smell somebody will not like it. >>> >>> Yesterday I was in park as in my role as investor and I am sitting on >>> ground with a lovely student just as I would be doing it with 14 >>> years old, but somebody may not find it appropriate. >>> >>> I think those cultural things should not be subject of anything called >>> "Planet" as if you truly want a planet, accept people how they are, >>> and look for their merits, not personal choice of having sandals or >>> not. >>> >>> Currently being located in Easter Africa, I can see many people >>> walking barefoot, including in the rain, I see nice woman of about >>> 22-25 walking barefoot on mud, I would do the same to join her. Before >>> few days receptionist brings me food to my lodge room and I receive >>> him naked and he does not mind. >>> >>> Further, that somebody does not have sandals and is sitting behind is >>> nothing that may be compared to what you say unwelcoming. >>> >>> What would be unwelcoming is when RMS would have no sandals and would >>> be demanding that everybody entering the room should have no >>> sandals. >>> >>> You see, me personally, not being same as you, I would not mind when >>> people don't wear sandals, as I am planetary citizen, and I believe >>> you can be the same. There are larger rooms and public spaces here in >>> Uganda where you need to put your shoes outside before
Re: Support RMS
> * Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 08:21]: > "(I was not close enough to smell his feet, however)" Paraphrasing the gospel of Luke 7:36-39: And behold - one of those in the Free/Libre Software community who was a sinner shall stand at his feet weeping, and shall wash his feet with tears, and wipe them with the hairs of his/her head, and kiss his feet and anoint them with ointment ... for s/he is a sinner who has blasphemed against St. IGNUcius of EMACS. Danny, next time you're fortunate enough to sit by RMS' feet, be cognisant of your status in the presence of the man who revolutionised the software industry by giving users freedom! - "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3-5) :-) Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [2]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [3]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [4]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [5]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 2. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 3. http://codeartnow.com/ 4. http://www.abertheid.info/ 5. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
I may have attributed the foot smell comment to the wrong person. Sorry, if so. Whoever said it, these threads have gone beyond absurd, and beyond even any pretense of basic decency, nevermind seriously minded activism. Will people please move on from these topics, and those who aren't satisfied, please just exercise your freedom not to associate with the FSF. There is a global pandemic. There is a global climate emergency. Both of those are areas where software freedom can help quite a bit. There is a big crisis in the capitalist markets around mass surveillance, centralized (dis-)services, and so on. These are real crises for software freedom. There is so much our already existing stock of software can do that people aren't using it for - and this too is a crisis/opportunity for software freedom. There is a question of how to have libre planet when air travel is ecologically insane and so forth -- that's another relevant topic to talk about. Stop with the trolling about RMS, and trolling is about what it has boiled down to at this point. -t On 2021-04-16 14:04, Thomas Lord wrote: * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: "(I was not close enough to smell his feet, however)" Please get off this list. There is no place for such infintile rudeness. -t On 2021-04-15 23:22, Jean Louis wrote: * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jean Louis wrote: > * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 07:44]: > > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > > before RMS started yelling angrily. I don’t know where it is. Sorry, Jean! I can tell you RMS was sitting in the back-left of room 123 of the MIT Stata Center, wearing a green collard shirt, black pants, and no shoes or sandals or socks (I was not close enough to smell his feet, however). I hope you’ll believe me all the same. You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more free and some not. Would he be Muslim in some kind of a Muslim dress, would you value him for the merits or how he looks like... I am grown up in a place where we like to be comfortable, so in the bus, I will often take my shoes off to be comfortable, but even if it does not smell somebody will not like it. Yesterday I was in park as in my role as investor and I am sitting on ground with a lovely student just as I would be doing it with 14 years old, but somebody may not find it appropriate. I think those cultural things should not be subject of anything called "Planet" as if you truly want a planet, accept people how they are, and look for their merits, not personal choice of having sandals or not. Currently being located in Easter Africa, I can see many people walking barefoot, including in the rain, I see nice woman of about 22-25 walking barefoot on mud, I would do the same to join her. Before few days receptionist brings me food to my lodge room and I receive him naked and he does not mind. Further, that somebody does not have sandals and is sitting behind is nothing that may be compared to what you say unwelcoming. What would be unwelcoming is when RMS would have no sandals and would be demanding that everybody entering the room should have no sandals. You see, me personally, not being same as you, I would not mind when people don't wear sandals, as I am planetary citizen, and I believe you can be the same. There are larger rooms and public spaces here in Uganda where you need to put your shoes outside before entering to keep the space cleaner, I do not say it is really objectively cleaner, but I am giving you example of planetary differences in human interactions or intermixed behavior. Your personal impression does not yet not even closely justify ability of RMS to speak for FSF, neither justify public shamings. What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn what our planet really is. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
> Jean, I mention the bare feet to suggest that my recollection of the story is accurate, and the point about smell was to add specificity to how close I was sitting. You assume too much. Nonsense. -t On 2021-04-15 23:48, Danny Spitzberg wrote: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 11:24 PM Jean Louis wrote: * Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 08:21]: > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jean Louis wrote: > > > * Danny Spitzberg <[2]stationa...@gmail.com> [2021-04-16 07:44]: > > > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > > > before RMS started yelling angrily. > > I don't know where it is. Sorry, Jean! I can tell you RMS was sitting in > the back-left of room 123 of the MIT Stata Center, wearing a green collard > shirt, black pants, and no shoes or sandals or socks (I was not close > enough to smell his feet, however). I hope you'll believe me all the > same. You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more free and some not. Jean, I mention the bare feet to suggest that my recollection of the story is accurate, and the point about smell was to add specificity to how close I was sitting. You assume too much. Would he be Muslim in some kind of a Muslim dress, would you value him for the merits or how he looks like... I am grown up in a place where we like to be comfortable, so in the bus, I will often take my shoes off to be comfortable, but even if it does not smell somebody will not like it. Yesterday I was in park as in my role as investor and I am sitting on ground with a lovely student just as I would be doing it with 14 years old, but somebody may not find it appropriate. I think those cultural things should not be subject of anything called "Planet" as if you truly want a planet, accept people how they are, and look for their merits, not personal choice of having sandals or not. Currently being located in Easter Africa, I can see many people walking barefoot, including in the rain, I see nice woman of about 22-25 walking barefoot on mud, I would do the same to join her. Before few days receptionist brings me food to my lodge room and I receive him naked and he does not mind. Further, that somebody does not have sandals and is sitting behind is nothing that may be compared to what you say unwelcoming. What would be unwelcoming is when RMS would have no sandals and would be demanding that everybody entering the room should have no sandals. You see, me personally, not being same as you, I would not mind when people don't wear sandals, as I am planetary citizen, and I believe you can be the same. There are larger rooms and public spaces here in Uganda where you need to put your shoes outside before entering to keep the space cleaner, I do not say it is really objectively cleaner, but I am giving you example of planetary differences in human interactions or intermixed behavior. Your personal impression does not yet not even closely justify ability of RMS to speak for FSF, neither justify public shamings. What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn what our planet really is. I've traveled extensively, thank you. It has indeed been revealing. I especially appreciate visiting with people who are kind and capable leaders, who practice nonviolence and take a cooperative approach. Also, it's nice when people take a stance against free software being used by armed forces and militaries... but that's another topic. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: [3]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman [4]https://stallmansupport.org/ [5]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ References 1. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 2. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 3. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns 4. https://stallmansupport.org/ 5. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: "(I was not close enough to smell his feet, however)" Please get off this list. There is no place for such infintile rudeness. -t On 2021-04-15 23:22, Jean Louis wrote: * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 08:21]: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:04 PM Jean Louis wrote: > * Danny Spitzberg [2021-04-16 07:44]: > > Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, the recording of the talk cuts off > > before RMS started yelling angrily. I don’t know where it is. Sorry, Jean! I can tell you RMS was sitting in the back-left of room 123 of the MIT Stata Center, wearing a green collard shirt, black pants, and no shoes or sandals or socks (I was not close enough to smell his feet, however). I hope you’ll believe me all the same. You bring up some ha ha cultural differences, but some people are more free and some not. Would he be Muslim in some kind of a Muslim dress, would you value him for the merits or how he looks like... I am grown up in a place where we like to be comfortable, so in the bus, I will often take my shoes off to be comfortable, but even if it does not smell somebody will not like it. Yesterday I was in park as in my role as investor and I am sitting on ground with a lovely student just as I would be doing it with 14 years old, but somebody may not find it appropriate. I think those cultural things should not be subject of anything called "Planet" as if you truly want a planet, accept people how they are, and look for their merits, not personal choice of having sandals or not. Currently being located in Easter Africa, I can see many people walking barefoot, including in the rain, I see nice woman of about 22-25 walking barefoot on mud, I would do the same to join her. Before few days receptionist brings me food to my lodge room and I receive him naked and he does not mind. Further, that somebody does not have sandals and is sitting behind is nothing that may be compared to what you say unwelcoming. What would be unwelcoming is when RMS would have no sandals and would be demanding that everybody entering the room should have no sandals. You see, me personally, not being same as you, I would not mind when people don't wear sandals, as I am planetary citizen, and I believe you can be the same. There are larger rooms and public spaces here in Uganda where you need to put your shoes outside before entering to keep the space cleaner, I do not say it is really objectively cleaner, but I am giving you example of planetary differences in human interactions or intermixed behavior. Your personal impression does not yet not even closely justify ability of RMS to speak for FSF, neither justify public shamings. What I would suggest to you Deb is to start traveling and learn what our planet really is. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
One of the arguments I see in the community is that RMS has drove away some potentially active/working people from the community. I find that very true. In fact, that is true about many leaders. RMS was (or still is?) the leader of the free software community for a long time. However, I find it very interesting that people focus on few people who were annoyed by RMS but don't mention thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of people who became a member of this community because of RMS. I'm not trying to justify the behavior of RMS at all. I find it rude and upsetting to shout at people or interrupt them but why we only focus on that? Why don't we mention the majority of time when he's calm and very interesting for people? I'm sure you're not saying we should replace him with someone who never shouts or interrupts people. Is there even such person? Please people, stop campaigning emotionally and replace that with reason and logic. RMS is currently our best option. He's experienced, knowledgeable, hard-working, and serious. I'm sure many people are very mad with RMS. For example Jim Zemlin, the Linux chairman who uses MacOS and not GNU+Linux, would definitely campaign against RMS and thousands of people will follow him. Let's be the thinker, not the follower, in this matter. -- Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com) Libre culture activist and privacy advocate PGP: 88A5 BDB7 E07C 39D0 8132 6412 DCB8 F138 B865 1771 OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Hi Jean, I think your summary here is thoughtful, insightful, and overall helpful. Thank you for sharing your perspectives and aiming to focus on the unarguable facts such as what you did or didn't read or what you can or can't know. You have helped me see where I have missed some important clarity in my post, thanks. A few in-line comments: On 2021-04-15 11:56 p.m., Jean Louis wrote: > * Aaron Wolf [2021-04-16 09:05]: >> I see boy-cried-wolf dynamics at play in all this. And there *are* >> witch-hunt dynamics. > > Aaron, from conversation with Deb, Danny and Alexander, I can see > there are some problems that some people experience, and I am sure > that there is no perfect public speaker, but those problems so far I > have understood from asking and getting questions are so rare, that > they cannot find it on video, and number of people complained about > interruption of women being approached is so slow. > I find RMS to be a generally remarkable public speaker who has inspired me even as I do not agree 100% with him always (but vast majority agreement). His various quirks do not both me directly, but I wish they were minimized only because I wish for his message to reach the most people, and biased people will dismiss speakers who are "weird" or whatever. That's not RMS's fault, and it's no reason to want him to step down. I want him to continue his public speaking. I don't think the critiques are about his public speaking, they are primarily about his behavior outside of his speeches. Furthermore I don't have any significant negative experiences of him even outside. And the 2nd-hand stories I have heard are literally not much more detailed than I shared. I don't even know names of people involved in most cases. I know the names of the people like Deb and others who told me about their experiences. Every time I've heard such stories, I've been skeptical. I've just heard them enough to say, "okay, a lot of different people I know and respect have told me about RMS being a real hassle or turning people away or hitting on some woman awkwardly, so I suppose it's probably true, I don't have much reason to doubt it". And all these people consistently seem a bit exasperated, like they personally tried to tolerate or work with RMS for years and got tired of it. But that's a bit like hearing someone tell you about their complaints about their former roommate. Sure they had more experience and know the person, but they're also filtering their stories through some pent-up frustration. I don't doubt them, but I also know that it's complex, and if they were in a mood to talk about the virtues of their former roommate, they might do that too. Surely, the roommate had some virtues. All in all, I give it something between a shrug and a sincere sympathy, wanting to listen and care and be open to hearing about people's complaints and experiences. > So I keep the summary of fact finding here: > > - not first hand, but second hand story exist of more than 6 people > who told how they did not find something appropriate, none of those > people ever talked about it on this mailing list, and we do not know > their names; there is mentioning of virgin jokes; we know that it is > impossible for everybody to find something funny, it is how it is; > there is mentioning of women being approached by RMS, but nothing so > far illegal or problematic. There are no evidences for those, as > those are second hand stories, not first hand stories; > > - RMS once interrupted young man in speech; and will continue doing so > most probably when there are frictions in the context of free > software; it comes from second hand story, but is very irrelevant as > one can assume that in debates people interrupt each other; > > - RMS did not wear sandals; Danny did not smell his feet; as she was > not so close to RMS; question is how did she see RMS not having > sandals if she was not that close; that is one first hand experience > that I find proper to mention; > > - RMS talked angrily from behind on Libreplanet 2018, but there is no > URL to the video yet, please find the URL here: > https://libreplanet.org/2018/program/ like which video was it> > > Is there something I missed? Please add more to it, let us make a list > that is of first hand experiences as when people bring generalizations > into public space and call for virtual character lynch, then it is > best to bring the specifics, that we demonstrate we are better than > the mob dynamics. > Amen! The core problem as I see it here is that many RMS-critics just want to get their way by numbers or the positions of organizations or whatever. In some ways, this is *internal* stuff, it's like imagine if all the staff of FSF went on strike and said RMS needs to go… and then when you ask why they say "well, he yelled, people don't like him, he's weird, and actually there's all these other issues but I don't feel like getting into the details". At
Re: Support RMS
-- (a personal attractiveness or interestingness that enables you to influence others) > GNU is entirely besides the point. But, for an example that's somewhat of > an inverse of RMS and GNU, Alfred Nobel invented dynamite and was so > appalled that his creation become weaponized as a means of death and > destruction, he worked the rest of his life to make up for it. As in mining, we use dynamite to blast ores which you will use then back in your cars to move around. I see invention of dynamite as free software, it is not bad necessarily by itself, but some people may use it for bad purposes. > It seems the diehard defenders of dear leader will say and do and > point to anything -- including GNU or favorite lectures or whatever > -- as support for their position that people raising concerns should > simply shut up and not do so at all. Maybe yes, you should maybe stay calm when somebody speaks and help, or otherwise, if you don't want to help, do something else. > > we would not have Linux kernel without RMS > > Well, fortunately we now have GNU and the Linux kernel, so maybe it's time > to address concerns and grievances with RMS and FSF, and move our movement > forward? Why don't you address your personal issues with RMS if you have some? Is anybody blocking you? Why you bring your personal issues here on public mailing list? Though I did not see any personal issue from your side, beside that angrily speaking behind on somebody, even that I do not see as personal. It is your viepoint. Dissecting every single reaction, for heaven's sake that is waste of time. > > That RMS is not capable is a point that accusers wish to make, and > > that is the lie. But they cannot make it objectively. > > Capable of what, speeches and GNU? That's not the point. We're talking > about leadership and collaborating in an organization and a > movement. I look at results, whatever he was doing, there are huge planetary results impacting so many people, educating and helping people understand freedom. What you are looking at are his approaches to women, maybe you have issues there, maybe sandals, maybe interruption of speech. Please. Those are uncomparable things. > Jean, by your logic ... RMS is capable of creating GNU. But you seem to > appreciate that there are a great many people with commitment and integrity > and capabilities of their own who do **not** find it functional to be in a > community that denies any possibility of dysfunction. Who is disallowing you to be in community? What you are actually saying, is that you are not at all close to RMS like right now, but you would like to be close to RMS, but without RMS. WTF! Nobody is telling you should not be part of community, so be. Who is, is anybody forcing you to interact with people you don't like to interact? Don't interact, get your own life. Nobody is forsing you anything, but then please be kind and stop imposing your view on others as not everybody shares your views. Yes, fine, that public character assassination letters was signed by thousand, but also support RMS letter was signed [4]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ by several more thousands. Not everybody supports such vague statements. And despite those accusations have been proven factually wrong here [5]https://stallmansupport.org/ not a single one of the accusers excused themselves and said sorry. I would not like such people leading any organization. We already discussed RMS being able to recognize or grasp things and say sorry. When did you say sorry for whatever nonsense? You as accusers just find it right to behave how you wish and want, accuse others of doing the same pattern of behavior you have. > But a few years ago I brought up the question of free software and > weapons of war. People on a list said, "Hey, get politics out of > free software! All that matters are the four freedoms" Exactly. As if you touch that, you touch Freedom 0 - to use the software how one wish and wants. Which also implies you never accepted Freedom 0 and this is not place to present your ideas on changing Freedom 0. > I believe that style of reactionary stance appears far too often in the > free software community for it to gain more members, to grow as a movement. > > And that is why I was initially drawn to Libre Planet and FSF. Welcome, not everything is how you wish and want, research more. -- Jean Take action in Free
Re: Support RMS
Dear Deb, thank you again for participating in the conversation here and for all your work promoting free software! In relation to outreach and promotion efforts, it's worth remembering that sometimes well-meaning actions can lead to unexpected results, or even the exact opposite of what was intended. See for instance Marit Hinnosaar (2015): https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Newsletter/2015/December#cite_ref-1 https://www.carloalberto.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/no.411.pdf «From the survey, the author concludes that "almost half of the gender gap in Wikipedia writing is explained by gender differences in two characteristics: frequency of Wikipedia use and belief about one’s competence [...] Respondents were asked to look at Wikipedia articles and find some relevant information from the web that is missing from a Wikipedia article. ... In the end, they were also asked how likely they are to edit Wikipedia in the future." The first version, highlighting the criticism of Wikipedia's gender gap, is "associated with a 35 percent decrease in the likelihood of editing Wikipedia in the future", i.e. discouraged rather than encouraged respondents from contributing, which the author calls "somewhat unexpected". [...] As summarized by the author: "The result provides an example where encouraging gender equality can partially backfire."» Personally, I changed my methods of outreach after that study. I now focus on positive communication and examples to help reinforce that "belief about one's competence" and hopefully compensate stereotypes and other negative communication which instil irrational self-doubt. Il 15/04/21 19:13, Deb Nicholson ha scritto: You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that it feels that way to you. [...] It's completely false to draw a parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete strangers at an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free software supporters. It's surely different. For instance, the anti-rms letter has been accused of being libel, while other kinds of criminal standards have been invoked in other cases. For what it's worth, I hope that some day we can achieve the high standards of behaviour recommended by the GNU communication guidelines, hence I don't subscribe to any document which engages in personal attacks, whatever side it takes. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html Best regards, Federico ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
I see boy-cried-wolf dynamics at play in all this. And there *are* witch-hunt dynamics. I work to get *past* my own trepidation while trying to engage constructively. I am honestly nervous. I worry that the sort of people who are quite upset about RMS being put back on the Board will see *me* in some bad light, will lose some trust in me or will associate me with the most rude, knee-jerk RMS defenders simply because I refuse to take a strong stance on the RMS-should-step-down side. This dynamic is so troubling. I work to really listen, I want to be open and learn, I avoid just writing off critics as if they are all malicious etc. And *still* I worry about the ramifications of expressing skepticism of the claims from the upset people. This is not equal on all sides. The most defensive and reactive of the RMS-defenders might express themselves rudely to me, but I do not worry about some backlash against me. What I'm saying is: there's TRUTH to the arguments about witch-hunt and cancel-culture and so on. And I shouldn't have to repeat this over and over, but a subset of people are unwilling (at this point anyway) to recognize that it's possible to see that these bad dynamics *are* present and yet still conclude that a portion of the RMS critiques are *valid*. The boy-cried-wolf effect is strong, as I said. If someone keeps saying "there's a wolf! come quick!" and it's just not true, then a second person saying, "even though there's no wolf, there's actually other problems still, and you should come anyway" is just liable to get dismissed and ignored — especially if they only say "you really do need to come!" without emphasizing that they understand there's no wolf. The parable is extra strong because there really are serious issues with bigotry and harassment of various sorts that are as bad and worse than anything RMS is accused of. And those are the "wolves" that get *less* attention because people get desensitized when unfair and exaggerated accusations are common. I just think again that it's a strategic mistake for the valid RMS critics to speak up and ally themselves with messages that are unfair. It harms their message. People see the unfairness and become closed-minded to hearing valid criticism. Let me be candid: I have worked with or known (all in volunteer capacity, I've only ever *spent* money and time as part of my free software efforts) several organizers of conferences, former FSF employees, and so on. All of the people who know RMS better than I have told me that his behavior and issues have been troubling over many years. Some of them still admire and respect RMS anyway. Some of them refused to sign the open letter because they could not put their name on something they felt was unfair and exaggerated — but they otherwise still shared the concerns about RMS being back on the Board. Some had mixed feelings, really unsure what to think, upset about all the drama. I do not feel comfortable naming names because I do not have permission to share stories that were told to me privately. Also, most of the stories did not go into details, so I don't even really know. It was just that most people independently told me the same style of thing about RMS being a problem in various ways. This isn't all new, I'm talking about things people told me over several years. Now, to be clear, my impression is that *all* of the critiques are around the social awkwardness, temper, flirting, RMS-above-the-rules, this sort of thing which again is NOT "misogyny" or "transphobia" or other accusations in the letter. Sexism… that's more subtle but, you know. Like here's one story: I was at LibrePlanet 2014 and RMS was speaking and mentioned offhand how a certain sort of older computer with no disk, they used to joke and called it a dickless computer. 10 minutes later he apologized for the crass joke in a sincere manner before awarding some sort of women-in-free-software award. I heard second hand that he had to have someone pull him aside and emphasize the problem before he realized the issue and apologized. This is troublesome, and you know straw-that-broke-the-camels-back is another parable. But this isn't anything like the over-the-top-accusations. Still, that's RMS in public. Reasonable to accept the claim that he gets worse than that. Even still, that's all social awkwardness and not malice. It might be *truly* harmful to the movement, but it doesn't merit accusing RMS of bigotry. RMS doesn't believe that only men can be good programmers or similar bullshit. He actively promotes feminist political ideas. That doesn't excuse his behavior, but it does give context and nuance. I would not accept the accusations of real bigotry without strong evidence. I think levying them and just asking people to take one's word for it is grossly unreasonable. And although I might disagree with Deb in some of her exact tactics in engaging, you might notice that she has not made such accusations. The sort I'm hearing from
Re: Support RMS
On 2021-04-15 5:54 p.m., quil...@riseup.net wrote: > Aaron Wolf writes: > >> Ali, >> >> I agree with your concerns here, and I have seen many unfair accusations. > > No you don't. You are not even addressing his concerns. > I don't need to address his concerns because I don't disagree with them. There's nothing to discuss about it. My whole reply was about recognizing the nuance of things that are *different* than the concerns he has. When it comes to concerns about false and exaggerated accusations, I wasn't disagreeing with anything. >> However, we must be sure not to dismiss other concerns. In Deb's recent >> reply, she didn't repeat any of the unfair exaggerated accusations. We >> can grapple with the more subtle nuanced issues without assuming all >> critics are the most extreme ones. Even people who signed the Open >> Letter (which I saw as grossly unreasonable in some regards) are not all >> people who would have written the language exactly that way (which is >> one of the problems with open letters, people feel pressured to sign to >> signal general agreement and there's not much room to express nuance or >> a mix of agreement and disagreement). > > She is repeating the same blablabla in other words. Diplomacy does not > cover for the harassment. It is better that she'd rude but sincere than > diplomatic and false. This form of pretending to know other people's minds is toxic and harmful. Even if she were much *worse* than you believe, it would be a problem. If you make mistakes in understanding your worst enemies, it leaves you in a weaker position. You don't know Deb, and you are reading plain text communication on the internet. For you to accuse Deb of being insincere, of being diplomatic and false — you are falling to the level of the people you criticize. You are levying accusations without adequate knowledge or evidence. > > If she feels bad here, it is wise to become part of another group, not > to try to take over this group or to sabotage the cause of freedom by > dividing people here. We know how she feels. She knows how we feel. > No consensus, no work together. That's it! > Deb is not trying to take over this group or sabotage anything. And one of the core problems with "cancel culture" and so on is the dynamic of drawing simplistic with-us-or-against-us lines. You are demonstrating exactly how to divide and sabotage in every aspect of your "That's it!" attitude which implies you know all you need to know, there's nothing to be curious about, nothing to learn, and people are either good or evil. Now, that's the *impression* I get from your email. If I were to just *conclude* that you were forever hopeless and dogmatic and write you off, I'd be doing the same mistake myself. I don't actually know you, and I'm only guessing about what's behind your text. And the story in my mind is that you are upset about the unfair attacks on RMS and are in a reactive and defensive state which is why you are so dismissive of Deb's concerns. To be fair, she and others have been reactive as well and sometimes added to the drama. Keep in mind the Fundamental Attribution Error. Generally, people fall into this mindset where when *we* are reactive and angry, we see it as just how we are in that circumstance, not how we always are. But when we see OTHERS being reactive and angry, we presume that this is a fundamental part of who they are, that they just ARE reactive people who want to be controlling etc. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Thu, 2021-04-15 at 12:13 -0400, Deb Nicholson wrote: > Hi, > As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours > running FSF > events. Thank you for your many contributions to Free Software, the FSF and LibrePlanet. LibrePlanet is a fantastic conference and the one year I was able to attend in person, I really enjoyed it. > I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women > and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them > differently, hitting on them at a conference, loudly interrupting a > young > person's talk or involving them in a mortifying public joke about > virginity. In particular, I have had several young women say to me, > "Oh, I > could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." > > Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to > these > events because the last time they did RMS or other free software > representatives were awful to them. Having a leader who inspires > others to > treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net > positive > for the free software movement. > > Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the > people > who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives choose > to > donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time? I'm not > surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still > support him. > What's sad is that the free software movement should be much, much > bigger > and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting people who don't > mind > harassment, bullying and belittlement. We should be able to work on > free > software without that gate. > > You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand > that it > feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have > spent > many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software *with > RMS.* While I'm sure many folks that signed that letter have very strong emotions attached to it, it doesn't seem like a very productive way to move forward. I don't feel that Richard is a person that means to harm people. He may have character flaws like we all do, but that doesn't mean he is intentionally causing problems. Richard may have opinions that are difficult for some people to deal with and he may discuss ideas that make some people uncomfortable. I don't see this as damning. The problem I have is that no one, nobody anywhere is going to be able to define what will make everyone 100% comfortable all the time. Never. If we did that we would be sanitizing our culture to the point where it was no longer interesting or fun because chances are that SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE would find SOMETHING offensive. Deb, please don't take anything here personally, I'm not intending to attack you at all. I value the input anyone has on this issue and I appreciate that you have done many things for Free Software. I personally feel that Richard does still have something unique and valuable to offer to the Free Software community. I also feel that his character is being wrongfully attacked. That doesn't mean that I'm saying that /some/ of the people involved in the signing of the letter don't have valid feelings. Their feelings are of course valid but I don't think they are properly represented through that letter. I hope my response doesn't sound hostile, I don't intend to be hostile. -- "Under the sky, under the heavens there is but one family." --Bruce Lee signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Hey Alexandre: Hi, Deb, You shouldn't really expect anyone believe any of your far less over-the-top allegations, after you cried wolf putting your name under obviously false allegations, should you? Didn't you think ahead that you'd be ruining your reputation to the point that even any true allegations you might have would be harder to believe after that? This might be bait. We don't need you to waste your time and energy. We need you to help RMS and the FSF continue to build on the vision of free software that has revolutionised the global software industry. The fact that this revolution has incurred the wrath of corporations who have resorted to the exploitation of female faces as proxies in their attempt to literally behead the leader of the Free Software movement - is testament to its resounding and unprecedented success. There is much work to do. Let's reserve our energies to build the future of Free Software! I propose that we enlist our media friends and attorneys to devise strategies - through the courts and the media - to force the wolves into retreat. Adrienne G. Thompson Principal and Chief Code Artist, GNU C-Graph -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [1]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [2]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [3]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [4]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. http://codeartnow.com/ 3. http://www.abertheid.info/ 4. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Jean, I have been to a decent number of conferences and events with many of the people involved in all this. I have engaged with RMS personally both by email and face-to-face on a handful of times but not in a long-term day-to-day fashion. I have worked directly with and been acquainted with several of the people who have brought up concerns about RMS, including some who worked at FSF for years and are quite strongly dedicated to software freedom. As in all things, situations are far from simple. That RMS turns some people away is not debatable. But the reasons range from (A) him being "weird" to (B) him making people uncomfortable *because* he makes people feel morally shamed to (C) people offended at his political and social views, no matter how well-thought out they might be, for example his refusal to celebrate human reproduction to (D) misunderstandings or exaggerated unfair attacks to (E) RMS just being tempermental in ways that others are uncomfortable about to (F) RMS being socially awkward such as the ways he has attempted to flirt or hit on women… and this is not an exhaustive list. Here's a key general principle to keep in mind: there are thousands of ways to be WRONG about something. It's hard enough to determine whether someone's claims are right or wrong, it's that much harder to figure out HOW they are wrong if they are wrong. So, for the sake of rhetoric, consider that some portion of RMS critics are *wrong* in their critiques. It would be intellectually erroneous to assume they are all wrong in all the same ways. I see people in this discussion making this fundamental mistake. A person posts some concerns about RMS, and some replies are absolutely interchangeable with critics who are saying quite different things. I'm sure there's some logical fallacy identified for this. It's the pattern where you argue that because you can prove some critic wrong, it means all critics are wrong. It's like science-deniers who find examples of scientific mistakes and use them to argue that science is overall mistaken. Both of these things are true: (A) people who don't know RMS just pick up on exaggerations or misunderstandings of things he's said and go ahead with concluding unfair and inaccurate things about him and (B) many (but not all) of the people who worked personally with RMS for years and know him well *and* agree with his politics and mission have criticisms of the impacts his leadership has and the costs of his behaviors. While I've said things criticizing the treatment of B as if it were A, I also think it has been a serious mistake for the B critics to join in with anything resembling A. I see people with fair concerns as greatly damaging their credibility by failing to distance themselves enough from the unfair attacks. Jean, I hope this helps as you requested. On 2021-04-15 11:43 a.m., Jean Louis wrote: > * Aaron Wolf [2021-04-15 20:59]: >> Maybe the most productive outcome is some situation where the FSF and >> RMS do continue with only some reforms and still with RMS' leadership >> and antagonism dies down over time, and different aspects of the >> movement collaborate constructively. Maybe it's not absolutely hopeless >> to end up with RMS continuing to provide his positive inputs without >> turning people away. Certainly that's my wish, but I don't know that to >> be realistic. > > Aaron, please help me, do you have personal experience how RMS turns > people away? > > Or you just echo what somebody said? > > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ > > ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Deb, when you say something like: "Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, participates in free software." It should be very obvious that many of us do not agree that that is even in the vicinity of the ballpark of what is going on. We disagree on that point. All that is going on now, is fancy ways of going: "No way" "Yes way" "Na huh" "No really" "Bullshit" "Truth" etc. Can we put that on hold indefinitely now? Thanks. Maybe you could fire off one more round of personal insults and then drop it? -t On 2021-04-15 13:02, Deb Nicholson wrote: Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, participates in free software. On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:41 PM Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> wrote: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor <[2]podrzaj.gre...@gmail.com> wrote: hi Deb, all. hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes: i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a lag. reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet. if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i would bet my arm that it wouldn't. your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of. the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? of how to conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients called wisdom) those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country. now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile) let me walk trough your letter Deb On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, differently? as oppose to what? samely? hitting on them at a conference, oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she approves of it?) how does that work? loudly interrupting a young person's talk only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS, and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he would go revisiting his. or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing joke, once you hear it you die In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a cheer fills the room. Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems like those couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun which is not sexist at all Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Hi Deb, all sorry for wasting your time (again). but i do care. for all people. to be able to use free software. And i strongly believe that the truth should be the basis of any edeavor. sure, emotions are true also. and i am also an emotional person. and my feelings got hurt too you see. by what i see as untruth and injustice. is why i react so strongly, for which i apologize. much love g On 15. 04. 21 22:02, Deb Nicholson wrote: Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, participates in free software. On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:41 PM Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> wrote: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor <[2]podrzaj.gre...@gmail.com> wrote: hi Deb, all. hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes: i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a lag. reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet. if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i would bet my arm that it wouldn't. your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of. the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? of how to conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients called wisdom) those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country. now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile) let me walk trough your letter Deb On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, differently? as oppose to what? samely? hitting on them at a conference, oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she approves of it?) how does that work? loudly interrupting a young person's talk only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS, and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he would go revisiting his. or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing joke, once you hear it you die In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a cheer fills the room. Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems like those couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun which is not sexist at all Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net positive for the free software movement. contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to be the way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole world. it lacks the basic
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
hi, "Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? " yes, you are right. that was the point of the first part of my letter.. trying to show how i see Debs letter, fully emotionally charged as was my first part. like a mirror. to show how i see her letter, you understand what i mean (english is not my native, some thoughts are harder to express, sorry)? my main point tough is, that division is making us weak and confused. between was just a try to "open" her eyes in the flawed logic of emotions as a basis for constructive dialog. regards g On 15. 04. 21 21:38, Danny Spitzberg wrote: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor <[1]podrzaj.gre...@gmail.com> wrote: hi Deb, all. hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes: i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a lag. reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet. if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i would bet my arm that it wouldn't. your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of. the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? of how to conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients called wisdom) those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country. now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile) let me walk trough your letter Deb On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, differently? as oppose to what? samely? hitting on them at a conference, oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she approves of it?) how does that work? loudly interrupting a young person's talk only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS, and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he would go revisiting his. or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing joke, once you hear it you die In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a cheer fills the room. Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems like those couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun which is not sexist at all Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net positive for the free software movement. contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to be the way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you constantly argue against your own principle.
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
Gregor could've saved us all a ton of time and just said that he doesn't care if women, or really anyone who would rather not be bullied, participates in free software. On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 3:41 PM Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> wrote: On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:25 PM gregor <[2]podrzaj.gre...@gmail.com> wrote: hi Deb, all. hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes: i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a lag. reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet. if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i would bet my arm that it wouldn't. your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of. the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations Gregor, makes this interpretation arbitrary? of how to conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients called wisdom) those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country. now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile) let me walk trough your letter Deb On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, differently? as oppose to what? samely? hitting on them at a conference, oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she approves of it?) how does that work? loudly interrupting a young person's talk only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS, and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he would go revisiting his. or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing joke, once you hear it you die In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a cheer fills the room. Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems like those couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun which is not sexist at all Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net positive for the free software movement. contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to be the way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you constantly argue against your own principle. Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time? truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the innocent ... ever, ever, ever much? I'm not
Re: Support RMS> to Deb, all
hi Deb, all. hope you bear with me and my thinking. here goes: i feel that dumbing down the peoples of usa worked. well, the same seems to be the case in my country, with maybe a couple of decades of a lag. reading the reasoning of Deb, i feel like being from another planet. if 30 years ago, someone told me something like this would happen, i would bet my arm that it wouldn't. your usa world is now made of feelings, all under the banner of freedom, a type of freedom that only some are the arbiters of. the others are victims of this arbitrary interpretations of how to conduct social interactions (still all based on feelings, no need for critical thinking, let alone search for the truth, which the ancients called wisdom) those same feelings you newer show when bombing some foreign country. now it feels like your nation is last to be devoured by that same force. in so hideous a way, not even mengele would come up with. (and also has to do with divide and conquer, if we would only see it as such, "struggle" wouldn't be futile) let me walk trough your letter Deb On 15. 04. 21 18:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, differently? as oppose to what? samely? hitting on them at a conference, oh no, a man must not hit on a woman ( maybe you mean unless she approves of it?) how does that work? loudly interrupting a young person's talk only young?, so he seems to be a bigot of some sorts. ok, interupting someone's talk. yes, seems rude. of the few videos i watched dr. RMS, and the way i see his stainless steel logic, if he yelled at me, i would be honored and would most likely have to revisit my position for which i was yelled at. but if i could prove my position i am sure he would go revisiting his. or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. mortifying joke, oh now now, don't you go cry, its called a killing joke, once you hear it you die In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." hmm. so fragile these new ones. yell back! then both have a smile and a cheer fills the room. Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. were awful to them? this sure sounds a strange claim, so they were awful to new faces, specially women, whereas to their male spouses everything was normal (except of course their wifes girlfriends feelings, those weren't normal.) i just can not wrap my head around what has happened to educated people of usa. to me it seems like those couples should divorce if such a disharmony in understanding of the world is between them. i just don't get it. maybe it was like a mans club, where women are ridiculed. hmm. in that case you got a huge point, no doubt. As i recall, dr. RMS is a champion of neutral pronoun which is not sexist at all Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net positive for the free software movement. contempt is a very strong word. your demands for the world to be the way you want it to be, is actually not net positive for the whole world. it lacks the basic logic, you seem to not notice you constantly argue against your own principle. Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time? truth shall prevail. meanwhile bombs are still killing the innocent ... ever, ever, ever much? I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement. in all your posts you have managed to belittle yourself in my eyes completely. mind you, couldn't it be argued that dr. RMS is harassed and bullied? one could even naively ask by whom? (wink wink) We should be able to work on free software without that gate. i can not see the connection between "promote computer user freedom" e.g. free software project and a gate. what gate does dr. RMS present to you that inhibits your work for the computer user freedom? You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have spent many,
Re: Support RMS
Thomas, I imagine Deb posting here to share her thoughts on the ways she sees RMS as a problem for the movement, but she's not saying that it personally drives her away from the movement. She's been involved in various orgs like Software Freedom Conservancy and is now at the OSI. I think her point is to help people simply understand the concerns about RMS that are not related to the unfair stuff around his political views. On a side note, I very much appreciated your description of your own dealings with RMS, and I see some merit to your points. I don't see myself as on one or the other "side" of this debate. I think we're all in this together, and I think if we can get past (or through) our initial reactiveness to things we read or hear, we can end up finding common understandings to help us work together best. Maybe the most productive outcome is some situation where the FSF and RMS do continue with only some reforms and still with RMS' leadership and antagonism dies down over time, and different aspects of the movement collaborate constructively. Maybe it's not absolutely hopeless to end up with RMS continuing to provide his positive inputs without turning people away. Certainly that's my wish, but I don't know that to be realistic. On 2021-04-15 10:23 a.m., Thomas Lord wrote: > > You seem to be complaining that you can not work on > free software without closely associating with the FSF. > > That seems nonsensical. What's stopping you? > > -t > > > On 2021-04-15 09:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: >> Hi, >> As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours >> running >> FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half >> dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS >> treating them differently, hitting on them at a conference, loudly >> interrupting a young person's talk or involving them in a mortifying >> public joke about virginity. In particular, I have had several young >> women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because >> RMS might yell at me." >> Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to >> these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software >> representatives were awful to them. Having a leader who inspires >> others >> to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net >> positive for the free software movement. >> Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the >> people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives >> choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer >> time? >> I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still >> support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be >> much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting >> people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement. We should >> be able to work on free software without that gate. >> You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that >> it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have >> spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software >> *with RMS.* He hasn't listened. It's completely false to draw a >> parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete >> strangers at >> an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free >> software >> supporters. >> RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving it and >> that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the struggle >> for freedom though. And there are many aspects of even computer >> freedom >> that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against >> persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware, >> pushing >> for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of >> algorithms >> that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the criminal >> justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like drones or >> amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals. The struggle for >> freedom has to be more than one person and more than one organization. >> If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I fear >> that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that >> would be >> terrible because software freedom is extremely important and that's >> why >> I'm continuing to engage here. >> Best, >> Deb >> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva <[1]lxol...@fsfla.org> >> wrote: >> >> On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson <[2]d...@eximiousproductions.com> >> wrote: >> > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve >> former FSF >> > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at >> conferences or MIT >> > and many, many free software creators. >>
Re: Support RMS
If you wanted to attack me for this and you couldn't use the email, I published the message on my personal site too: https://alirezahayati.com/2021/04/15/stop-accusing-people-of-what-they-didnt-do/ On 15/04/2021 21:30, Ali Reza Hayati wrote: Do you guys follow football? I mean the real football, not Amerikkkan one. There's a club in Spain named Barcelona. They have a player in their team named Leo Messi. I think many of you know him. Messi is believed to be one of the best football players in the history. During time, some people accused Messi of sexual assault and harassment. They even went to court for it and sued Messi. It turned out that all of them were only doing this for money, hoping that Leo Messi gives them some ransom. There's another player named Cristiano Ronaldo. Ronaldo is almost as same as Messi. He is again believed to be one of the bests in the history. He also was accused of sexual harassment and assault. Again, some people went to court and sued him, etc. Some of the accusers never went to court but they tell very interesting stories on how they were assaulted. There were no proof and the teams (Barcelona and Real Madrid) never responded. I can't tell if those players who have a reputation of good behavior and charity and social work were really offenders or not, but I can tell one thing. Barca and Madrid didn't let go of their best players because of some unproven accusations. I remember Leo Messi once attacked a journalist physically because he was very angry but again, he made up to that, apologized, and never repeated such behavior because he was aware of how it can affect people. Again, we didn't see any effort to ban Messi from playing football completely because that mistake. I'm a football fan. I'm a fan of Manchester United, neither of those teams I mentioned but I never ever campaigned to throw out Messi and Ronaldo for unproven accusations. I did not expect those teams to simply fire probably the best player of their history because some people said so. Do you get my analogy here? I hear stories about an autistic person named RMS that he has assaulted women, harassed them, or sexually abused them. When I go and read the stories, I see what Stallman did was to "upset" some people. Not harassment, not assault, but upset. Stallman shouted at some people or interrupted them while speaking. He hit on women or asked them out and insisted on that, which made them uncomfortable. If he was doing to me, I would be upset too, but I wouldn't ever accuse him of assault or harassment. I wouldn't expect FSF to fire its probably most valuable player that is known for his charity, effort for equality, justice, women's rights, etc. Why people expect FSF to fire its probably best player in history? I don't understand that. What people explain is not sexual harassment. He was an unpleasant person, maybe, to some people but he didn't do anything to harass them. Let me give you another example. There's a different between patting some child on the butt and pedophilia. Now a pedophile most-probably does pat children on the butt but are all people who do that pedophiles? Hell no. Please don't accuse people of what they didn't do because they made you uncomfortable or were unpleasant. If someone shouts at you, defend yourself or if the act of shouting makes you psychologically hurt, please be very very careful when you come out of your home because you may experience it almost every time. If someone hitting on you makes you uncomfortable, ask them not to do that or ask security to help you but don't accuse that person of harassment because looking at someone or being weird is not harassment. And again, please be careful when you come out of your house because you may experience it every day. If someone interrupts you, ask them not to do that or argue back but don't accuse that person of harassment because they didn't harass you with that. Harassment is different. And please be careful when you come out of your house because people may interrupt you every day. Stop with accusing people of things when they didn't do that. Also, please don't accuse me of sexual harassment because I wrote this note. I don't even know any of you and I did not harass you. Disagreeing with you is not harassment. Sending email messages is not assault. I had to clarify that because as far as I've seen you people, the next open letter would've been for me. Don't start arh-open-letter please. And yes, I'm mocking some people. -- Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com) Libre culture activist and privacy advocate PGP: 88A5 BDB7 E07C 39D0 8132 6412 DCB8 F138 B865 1771 OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Danny, what is disgusting is ruining people's lives and reputation with false accusations and lies. Abuse of financial power and popularity is disgusting. Saying someone assaulted you or harassed you because he interrupted you or got angry is disgusting. Should I be accused of rape for mocking? They might do that, and that is disgusting. For me, this is not just the matter of Stallman. It's abuse of power and ruining lives. I live in a country in Middle East and I see this every day and I know and feel and understand it; and I fight against it. On April 15, 2021 5:39:30 PM UTC, Danny Spitzberg wrote: >Ali, mocking is disgusting. I don’t think you should do that. > >On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:37 AM Ali Reza Hayati wrote: > >> Do you guys follow football? I mean the real football, not Amerikkkan >> one. There's a club in Spain named Barcelona. They have a player in >> their team named Leo Messi. I think many of you know him. >> >> Messi is believed to be one of the best football players in the history. >> During time, some people accused Messi of sexual assault and harassment. >> They even went to court for it and sued Messi. It turned out that all of >> them were only doing this for money, hoping that Leo Messi gives them >> some ransom. >> >> There's another player named Cristiano Ronaldo. Ronaldo is almost as >> same as Messi. He is again believed to be one of the bests in the >> history. He also was accused of sexual harassment and assault. Again, >> some people went to court and sued him, etc. >> >> Some of the accusers never went to court but they tell very interesting >> stories on how they were assaulted. There were no proof and the teams >> (Barcelona and Real Madrid) never responded. >> >> I can't tell if those players who have a reputation of good behavior and >> charity and social work were really offenders or not, but I can tell one >> thing. Barca and Madrid didn't let go of their best players because of >> some unproven accusations. >> >> I remember Leo Messi once attacked a journalist physically because he >> was very angry but again, he made up to that, apologized, and never >> repeated such behavior because he was aware of how it can affect people. >> Again, we didn't see any effort to ban Messi from playing football >> completely because that mistake. >> >> I'm a football fan. I'm a fan of Manchester United, neither of those >> teams I mentioned but I never ever campaigned to throw out Messi and >> Ronaldo for unproven accusations. >> >> I did not expect those teams to simply fire probably the best player of >> their history because some people said so. >> >> Do you get my analogy here? I hear stories about an autistic person >> named RMS that he has assaulted women, harassed them, or sexually abused >> them. When I go and read the stories, I see what Stallman did was to >> "upset" some people. Not harassment, not assault, but upset. >> >> Stallman shouted at some people or interrupted them while speaking. He >> hit on women or asked them out and insisted on that, which made them >> uncomfortable. If he was doing to me, I would be upset too, but I >> wouldn't ever accuse him of assault or harassment. I wouldn't expect FSF >> to fire its probably most valuable player that is known for his charity, >> effort for equality, justice, women's rights, etc. >> >> Why people expect FSF to fire its probably best player in history? I >> don't understand that. >> >> What people explain is not sexual harassment. He was an unpleasant >> person, maybe, to some people but he didn't do anything to harass them. >> >> Let me give you another example. There's a different between patting >> some child on the butt and pedophilia. Now a pedophile most-probably >> does pat children on the butt but are all people who do that pedophiles? >> Hell no. >> >> Please don't accuse people of what they didn't do because they made you >> uncomfortable or were unpleasant. If someone shouts at you, defend >> yourself or if the act of shouting makes you psychologically hurt, >> please be very very careful when you come out of your home because you >> may experience it almost every time. >> >> If someone hitting on you makes you uncomfortable, ask them not to do >> that or ask security to help you but don't accuse that person of >> harassment because looking at someone or being weird is not harassment. >> And again, please be careful when you come out of your house because you >> may experience it every day. >> >> If someone interrupts you, ask them not to do that or argue back but >> don't accuse that person of harassment because they didn't harass you >> with that. Harassment is different. And please be careful when you come >> out of your house because people may interrupt you every day. >> >> Stop with accusing people of things when they didn't do that. >> >> Also, please don't accuse me of sexual harassment because I wrote this >> note. I don't even know any of you and I did not harass you. Disagreeing >> with
Re: Support RMS
Ali, I agree with your concerns here, and I have seen many unfair accusations. However, we must be sure not to dismiss other concerns. In Deb's recent reply, she didn't repeat any of the unfair exaggerated accusations. We can grapple with the more subtle nuanced issues without assuming all critics are the most extreme ones. Even people who signed the Open Letter (which I saw as grossly unreasonable in some regards) are not all people who would have written the language exactly that way (which is one of the problems with open letters, people feel pressured to sign to signal general agreement and there's not much room to express nuance or a mix of agreement and disagreement). On 2021-04-15 10:00 a.m., Ali Reza Hayati wrote: > Do you guys follow football? I mean the real football, not Amerikkkan > one. There's a club in Spain named Barcelona. They have a player in > their team named Leo Messi. I think many of you know him. > > Messi is believed to be one of the best football players in the history. > During time, some people accused Messi of sexual assault and harassment. > They even went to court for it and sued Messi. It turned out that all of > them were only doing this for money, hoping that Leo Messi gives them > some ransom. > > There's another player named Cristiano Ronaldo. Ronaldo is almost as > same as Messi. He is again believed to be one of the bests in the > history. He also was accused of sexual harassment and assault. Again, > some people went to court and sued him, etc. > > Some of the accusers never went to court but they tell very interesting > stories on how they were assaulted. There were no proof and the teams > (Barcelona and Real Madrid) never responded. > > I can't tell if those players who have a reputation of good behavior and > charity and social work were really offenders or not, but I can tell one > thing. Barca and Madrid didn't let go of their best players because of > some unproven accusations. > > I remember Leo Messi once attacked a journalist physically because he > was very angry but again, he made up to that, apologized, and never > repeated such behavior because he was aware of how it can affect people. > Again, we didn't see any effort to ban Messi from playing football > completely because that mistake. > > I'm a football fan. I'm a fan of Manchester United, neither of those > teams I mentioned but I never ever campaigned to throw out Messi and > Ronaldo for unproven accusations. > > I did not expect those teams to simply fire probably the best player of > their history because some people said so. > > Do you get my analogy here? I hear stories about an autistic person > named RMS that he has assaulted women, harassed them, or sexually abused > them. When I go and read the stories, I see what Stallman did was to > "upset" some people. Not harassment, not assault, but upset. > > Stallman shouted at some people or interrupted them while speaking. He > hit on women or asked them out and insisted on that, which made them > uncomfortable. If he was doing to me, I would be upset too, but I > wouldn't ever accuse him of assault or harassment. I wouldn't expect FSF > to fire its probably most valuable player that is known for his charity, > effort for equality, justice, women's rights, etc. > > Why people expect FSF to fire its probably best player in history? I > don't understand that. > > What people explain is not sexual harassment. He was an unpleasant > person, maybe, to some people but he didn't do anything to harass them. > > Let me give you another example. There's a different between patting > some child on the butt and pedophilia. Now a pedophile most-probably > does pat children on the butt but are all people who do that pedophiles? > Hell no. > > Please don't accuse people of what they didn't do because they made you > uncomfortable or were unpleasant. If someone shouts at you, defend > yourself or if the act of shouting makes you psychologically hurt, > please be very very careful when you come out of your home because you > may experience it almost every time. > > If someone hitting on you makes you uncomfortable, ask them not to do > that or ask security to help you but don't accuse that person of > harassment because looking at someone or being weird is not harassment. > And again, please be careful when you come out of your house because you > may experience it every day. > > If someone interrupts you, ask them not to do that or argue back but > don't accuse that person of harassment because they didn't harass you > with that. Harassment is different. And please be careful when you come > out of your house because people may interrupt you every day. > > Stop with accusing people of things when they didn't do that. > > Also, please don't accuse me of sexual harassment because I wrote this > note. I don't even know any of you and I did not harass you. Disagreeing > with you is not harassment. Sending email messages is not assault. > > I had
Re: Support RMS
Do you guys follow football? I mean the real football, not Amerikkkan one. There's a club in Spain named Barcelona. They have a player in their team named Leo Messi. I think many of you know him. Messi is believed to be one of the best football players in the history. During time, some people accused Messi of sexual assault and harassment. They even went to court for it and sued Messi. It turned out that all of them were only doing this for money, hoping that Leo Messi gives them some ransom. There's another player named Cristiano Ronaldo. Ronaldo is almost as same as Messi. He is again believed to be one of the bests in the history. He also was accused of sexual harassment and assault. Again, some people went to court and sued him, etc. Some of the accusers never went to court but they tell very interesting stories on how they were assaulted. There were no proof and the teams (Barcelona and Real Madrid) never responded. I can't tell if those players who have a reputation of good behavior and charity and social work were really offenders or not, but I can tell one thing. Barca and Madrid didn't let go of their best players because of some unproven accusations. I remember Leo Messi once attacked a journalist physically because he was very angry but again, he made up to that, apologized, and never repeated such behavior because he was aware of how it can affect people. Again, we didn't see any effort to ban Messi from playing football completely because that mistake. I'm a football fan. I'm a fan of Manchester United, neither of those teams I mentioned but I never ever campaigned to throw out Messi and Ronaldo for unproven accusations. I did not expect those teams to simply fire probably the best player of their history because some people said so. Do you get my analogy here? I hear stories about an autistic person named RMS that he has assaulted women, harassed them, or sexually abused them. When I go and read the stories, I see what Stallman did was to "upset" some people. Not harassment, not assault, but upset. Stallman shouted at some people or interrupted them while speaking. He hit on women or asked them out and insisted on that, which made them uncomfortable. If he was doing to me, I would be upset too, but I wouldn't ever accuse him of assault or harassment. I wouldn't expect FSF to fire its probably most valuable player that is known for his charity, effort for equality, justice, women's rights, etc. Why people expect FSF to fire its probably best player in history? I don't understand that. What people explain is not sexual harassment. He was an unpleasant person, maybe, to some people but he didn't do anything to harass them. Let me give you another example. There's a different between patting some child on the butt and pedophilia. Now a pedophile most-probably does pat children on the butt but are all people who do that pedophiles? Hell no. Please don't accuse people of what they didn't do because they made you uncomfortable or were unpleasant. If someone shouts at you, defend yourself or if the act of shouting makes you psychologically hurt, please be very very careful when you come out of your home because you may experience it almost every time. If someone hitting on you makes you uncomfortable, ask them not to do that or ask security to help you but don't accuse that person of harassment because looking at someone or being weird is not harassment. And again, please be careful when you come out of your house because you may experience it every day. If someone interrupts you, ask them not to do that or argue back but don't accuse that person of harassment because they didn't harass you with that. Harassment is different. And please be careful when you come out of your house because people may interrupt you every day. Stop with accusing people of things when they didn't do that. Also, please don't accuse me of sexual harassment because I wrote this note. I don't even know any of you and I did not harass you. Disagreeing with you is not harassment. Sending email messages is not assault. I had to clarify that because as far as I've seen you people, the next open letter would've been for me. Don't start arh-open-letter please. And yes, I'm mocking some people. -- Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com) Libre culture activist and privacy advocate PGP: 88A5 BDB7 E07C 39D0 8132 6412 DCB8 F138 B865 1771 OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
You seem to be complaining that you can not work on free software without closely associating with the FSF. That seems nonsensical. What's stopping you? -t On 2021-04-15 09:13, Deb Nicholson wrote: Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, hitting on them at a conference, loudly interrupting a young person's talk or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net positive for the free software movement. Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time? I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement. We should be able to work on free software without that gate. You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software *with RMS.* He hasn't listened. It's completely false to draw a parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete strangers at an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free software supporters. RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving it and that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the struggle for freedom though. And there are many aspects of even computer freedom that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware, pushing for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of algorithms that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the criminal justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like drones or amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals. The struggle for freedom has to be more than one person and more than one organization. If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I fear that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that would be terrible because software freedom is extremely important and that's why I'm continuing to engage here. Best, Deb On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva <[1]lxol...@fsfla.org> wrote: On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson <[2]d...@eximiousproductions.com> wrote: > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve former FSF > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at conferences or MIT > and many, many free software creators. That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into account, before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and attackers, and before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and distortions to spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have failed to spark. These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the legitimacy of claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those of the corporate-funded coalition. That may be illogical, but it's often a valuable heuristics. Call it karma if you wish. Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual sexual harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight from the source. Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on dates, keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the existence of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution against leaps to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry and being loud are not it IMHO. Hearsay about the same half dozen rumors over a period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own investigations haven't hit a dead end before something concrete popped up. I encourage you to let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me on copy. > The vast
Re: Support RMS
Hi, As you know, I've spent many hours in FSF booths and many hours running FSF events. I've personally spoken to many, many more than "a half dozen" women and others who have told me their stories about RMS treating them differently, hitting on them at a conference, loudly interrupting a young person's talk or involving them in a mortifying public joke about virginity. In particular, I have had several young women say to me, "Oh, I could never give a talk at LibrePlanet because RMS might yell at me." Others have told me that they can't bring their wife or girlfriend to these events because the last time they did RMS or other free software representatives were awful to them. Having a leader who inspires others to treat potential newcomers rudely, or with contempt is not a net positive for the free software movement. Perhaps it would not surprise you to hear that almost none of the people who've had these interactions with RMS or his representatives choose to donate to the FSF or support it through their volunteer time? I'm not surprised that the people who are left at the FSF mostly still support him. What's sad is that the free software movement should be much, much bigger and it won't be able to grow if it is only accepting people who don't mind harassment, bullying and belittlement. We should be able to work on free software without that gate. You mentioned that a public letter is a hostile act. I understand that it feels that way to you. Collectively the signers of that letter have spent many, many hours trying to "call in" or improve free software *with RMS.* He hasn't listened. It's completely false to draw a parallel between that action and acting rudely to complete strangers at an event where the primary goal should be bringing in new free software supporters. RMS did come up with free software and many tools for achieving it and that is great, vital, visionary work. He did not invent the struggle for freedom though. And there are many aspects of even computer freedom that the FSF does not work on; some of the EFF's work against persistent surveillance, campaigns to popularize Open Hardware, pushing for reform of EULAs and TOS agreements, resisting the use of algorithms that reinforce racism and sexism in job opportunities or the criminal justice system or pushing to be able to work on things like drones or amateur rockets without being labeled as criminals. The struggle for freedom has to be more than one person and more than one organization. If the FSF is unwilling to listen to people's concerns, then I fear that it will cease to grow and become irrelevant. I think that would be terrible because software freedom is extremely important and that's why I'm continuing to engage here. Best, Deb On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 4:21 AM Alexandre Oliva <[1]lxol...@fsfla.org> wrote: On Apr 14, 2021, Deb Nicholson <[2]d...@eximiousproductions.com> wrote: > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve former FSF > employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at conferences or MIT > and many, many free software creators. That's a real peril, and would have been wise to take into account, before deciding to form a coalition with known liars and attackers, and before resorting to false allegations, exaggerations and distortions to spark an explosive reaction that facts have or would have failed to spark. These decisions have contaminated and shed doubt on the legitimacy of claims advanced by those who joined the coalition, or who opportunistically timed their action to coincide with those of the corporate-funded coalition. That may be illogical, but it's often a valuable heuristics. Call it karma if you wish. Now, if there were any true, first-hand accounts of actual sexual harassment, I'd be very interested in getting them straight from the source. Giving out pleasure cards, politely asking people on dates, keeping foliage or mattresses in work offices, reports of the existence of institutional sexism at universities, advising caution against leaps to unsupported condemnation, tasteless jokes, getting angry and being loud are not it IMHO. Hearsay about the same half dozen rumors over a period of 40+ years isn't either, unless your own investigations haven't hit a dead end before something concrete popped up. I encourage you to let the FSF board know if that's the case, and please keep me on copy. > The vast majority of the people who signed the letter asking for RMS > to step down, care deeply about free software. I encourage them (you) to behave as such, instead of associating with historical opponents, and working so hard to
Re: Support RMS
Thank you Thomas. On 15/04/2021 00:53, Thomas Lord wrote: The raising of voices in conversation does not have a context independent or culturally universal emotional valence. For some it is normal and expected. For some it borders on a taboo. Taking the complaint about RMS raising his voice at face value: it borders on antisemitism. I don't mean that every Jew communicates in the style of RMS (of course). Perhaps we can step back and think about this complaint in that context. Here is a story that might help: Long ago, in the very early days of the FSF, I was an employee and there was more or less one person handling most of the operational day to day corporate business. One day, I had done something that (understandably) pissed RMS off. You see: after a brief chat with a board member other than RMS, I unilaterally decided to work remotely. I packed up and moved several states away, almost overnight, to be near my sweetheart (who is now my wife - it's a very romantic story, in retrospect). I did not notify RMS I was doing this. It upset him. He called and yelled. I was very distressed by this - I didn't expect it at all. I sought and received consel -- very good consel -- from that woman who was running the day to day business. "Just hang up on him if he gets like that," she advised. Later I understood this could be generalized: walk away, if need be. One can also really productively engage, sometimes, also, just by yelling back if you have something relevant and coherent to say. As an older person now, I realize that part of RMS' reputation comes from him being actually a better and more dynamic conversationalist than most people have ever met -- and yes, that can be hard to come to grip with at first. This doesn't mean that RMS or anyone has free reign to be a constant holy terror, always screaming and yelling, but that is not what I ever saw RMS do and is not what any of the complainers have said he does. Raised voices among friends and allies typify some cultural backgrounds -- including mine, ironically enough. It can, when in those cultural contexts, a bit creepy if someone does not communicate this way. One asks: what is that quiet person hiding from us? Interruption is a similarly culturally variable communication style. In some cultures I mix in, it is expected and is often a sign of engagement with what one is saying - silence comes off as rude / checked out. In other cultures, the opposite -- interruption is not allowed. In a multi-cultural world, we should all be tolerant and flexible in our communication styles. (RMS, meanwhile, is being made to do the limbo by people who think they get to define the One True Civil Converstation Style. Flexibility in style is a two-way street, chums.) None of this means that people making complaints have invalid feelings that should be ignored. Of course not. But it does mean that the particular demands against RMS, and the relentless character assassination, need to stop. Lastly, neither Deb nor any of us is qualified to assess whether or not a single person, RMS in this case, "drives people away from the movement" on balance. That's an incredibly arrogant assertion that centers one own cultural expectations and projects them onto an entire planet of people. Can we end the pointless debate of such assertions once and for all? -t On 2021-04-14 12:28, Deb Nicholson wrote: I can't comment on the censored email that no one saw. > It actually serves the opponents of free software quite well to have > someone who pushes people away and facilitates a hostile > environment, be in charge of the FSF. Quite opposite is true, RMS was never facilitating hostile environment. FSF is not public, but privately founded non-profit, founded by RMS, it is equal as his own, and legally he could, if he would want, keep it totally under his control, but he did not, it is gift to mankind. The FSF is a public charity. It is bound by it's US tax status to serve the public good, not a personal goal although of course there is sometimes overlap. As for a hostile environment, I have witnessed repeated hostility (bullying, ad hominem attacks, dog-piling, etc.) on the GNU mailing lists. I have seen RMS shout at people at least a dozen times in public. He inspires others to also interrupt and shout at people in the middle of their public presentations. Those are hostile acts. You may say they are justified, but they are undeniably hostile. That you come here with this perversion of truth without any facts or evidences is disgrace. I'm not "coming here." I've always been here. I'm a former FSF staff person who built LibrePlanet into a multi-day event and helped set up the
Re: Support RMS
The raising of voices in conversation does not have a context independent or culturally universal emotional valence. For some it is normal and expected. For some it borders on a taboo. Taking the complaint about RMS raising his voice at face value: it borders on antisemitism. I don't mean that every Jew communicates in the style of RMS (of course). Perhaps we can step back and think about this complaint in that context. Here is a story that might help: Long ago, in the very early days of the FSF, I was an employee and there was more or less one person handling most of the operational day to day corporate business. One day, I had done something that (understandably) pissed RMS off. You see: after a brief chat with a board member other than RMS, I unilaterally decided to work remotely. I packed up and moved several states away, almost overnight, to be near my sweetheart (who is now my wife - it's a very romantic story, in retrospect). I did not notify RMS I was doing this. It upset him. He called and yelled. I was very distressed by this - I didn't expect it at all. I sought and received consel -- very good consel -- from that woman who was running the day to day business. "Just hang up on him if he gets like that," she advised. Later I understood this could be generalized: walk away, if need be. One can also really productively engage, sometimes, also, just by yelling back if you have something relevant and coherent to say. As an older person now, I realize that part of RMS' reputation comes from him being actually a better and more dynamic conversationalist than most people have ever met -- and yes, that can be hard to come to grip with at first. This doesn't mean that RMS or anyone has free reign to be a constant holy terror, always screaming and yelling, but that is not what I ever saw RMS do and is not what any of the complainers have said he does. Raised voices among friends and allies typify some cultural backgrounds -- including mine, ironically enough. It can, when in those cultural contexts, a bit creepy if someone does not communicate this way. One asks: what is that quiet person hiding from us? Interruption is a similarly culturally variable communication style. In some cultures I mix in, it is expected and is often a sign of engagement with what one is saying - silence comes off as rude / checked out. In other cultures, the opposite -- interruption is not allowed. In a multi-cultural world, we should all be tolerant and flexible in our communication styles. (RMS, meanwhile, is being made to do the limbo by people who think they get to define the One True Civil Converstation Style. Flexibility in style is a two-way street, chums.) None of this means that people making complaints have invalid feelings that should be ignored. Of course not. But it does mean that the particular demands against RMS, and the relentless character assassination, need to stop. Lastly, neither Deb nor any of us is qualified to assess whether or not a single person, RMS in this case, "drives people away from the movement" on balance. That's an incredibly arrogant assertion that centers one own cultural expectations and projects them onto an entire planet of people. Can we end the pointless debate of such assertions once and for all? -t On 2021-04-14 12:28, Deb Nicholson wrote: I can't comment on the censored email that no one saw. > It actually serves the opponents of free software quite well to have > someone who pushes people away and facilitates a hostile > environment, be in charge of the FSF. Quite opposite is true, RMS was never facilitating hostile environment. FSF is not public, but privately founded non-profit, founded by RMS, it is equal as his own, and legally he could, if he would want, keep it totally under his control, but he did not, it is gift to mankind. The FSF is a public charity. It is bound by it's US tax status to serve the public good, not a personal goal although of course there is sometimes overlap. As for a hostile environment, I have witnessed repeated hostility (bullying, ad hominem attacks, dog-piling, etc.) on the GNU mailing lists. I have seen RMS shout at people at least a dozen times in public. He inspires others to also interrupt and shout at people in the middle of their public presentations. Those are hostile acts. You may say they are justified, but they are undeniably hostile. That you come here with this perversion of truth without any facts or evidences is disgrace. I'm not "coming here." I've always been here. I'm a former FSF staff person who built LibrePlanet into a multi-day event and helped set up the LibrePlanet wiki and this list. You calling me a liar is a perfect example of the hostility that I'm telling you
Re: Support RMS
Hi, It will not matter how many examples I produce, if you consider "shouting at people in public" acceptable behavior. There are many collections of examples of RMS's unacceptable behavior and if you have discounted all of them, then you will discount all of mine too. It might be interesting to think about why that is and if there is some behavior you would find unacceptable from RMS or a person whose word you would believe? I can't share the GNU maintainer mailing lists because they are not and never have been public. I will not waste any more of my time trying to change your mind. Best, Deb On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 3:50 PM Jean Louis wrote: * Deb Nicholson <[1]d...@eximiousproductions.com> [2021-04-14 22:29]: > I can't comment on the censored email that no one saw. [2]https://hyperscope.link/3/6/9/1/6/Libreplanet-censored-email-on-S elam-Jie-Gano-36916.html > > It actually serves the opponents of free software quite well to have > > > someone who pushes people away and facilitates a hostile > > > environment, be in charge of the FSF. > > > > Quite opposite is true, RMS was never facilitating hostile > > environment. FSF is not public, but privately founded non-profit, > > founded by RMS, it is equal as his own, and legally he could, if he > > would want, keep it totally under his control, but he did not, it is > > gift to mankind. > > > > The FSF is a public charity. It is bound by it's US tax status to serve the > public good, not a personal goal although of course there is sometimes > overlap. It serves personal goals of RMS and public good, that is why it is tax exempt. Serving public good does not mean that organization is public, it does not belong under legal authority of you, neither me, or anybody else to say how it should be governed, as RMS with help of whoever attorneys or helpers back then, has already made its Articles of Incorporation By-Laws and internal decision documents that are representing written instructions of governance. You, me, nobody else but voting members, founder, and directors or board, have no say there, regardless how much we may like the FSF. > As for a hostile environment, I have witnessed repeated hostility > (bullying, ad hominem attacks, dog-piling, etc.) on the GNU mailing > lists. In the context of RMS, as GNU mailing lists are public, can you point out where did RMS bully, made ad hominem attacks or did dog-piling? If you cannot, please retract these generalized and unfounded statements, in other words, have some dignity. > I have seen RMS shout at people at least a dozen times in public. I am sorry for your emotions, to shout means to protest, and that may as well be, but I never heard him saying some bad words. I have been shouting in public and I heard many other people shouting in public. I do not see how it is relevant really. Maybe you wanted to describe something else which come out now too generalized, please try to bring specific fact that we may see what you speak about. > He inspires others to also interrupt and shout at people in the > middle of their public presentations. Those are hostile acts. You > may say they are justified, but they are undeniably hostile. Please, this generalization is nothing but what it is, generalization. To show that you have a good intent, I would ask that you show something factual, as RMS is public figure. By the way RMS is a public speaker, he is free to speak and may express himself emotionally, which is what public speakers do. That you don't like his opinion, it does not make somebody "bad" as in behavior because public speaker speaks louder than you think it should. Many motivational speakers speak much louder and shout more. There are comedians who speak, shout, yell, turn themselves upside down, politicians, preachers from every religion, singers who involve themselves in politics, celebrities of all kind. I do not know what particular situation you find so? Can you point out to one evidence? I know myself when RMS was upset as due to organizer, so what? That is RMS. Nothing bad was said there that I could hear. You don't like somebody's emotion as response to some wrong doing, but you don't want even to verify what preceded such emotion, and you judge it only by emotion. Well I know people are like that, but I am sorry for that type of judgment capabilities. > That you come here with this perversion of truth without any facts > or evidences is disgrace. > > I'm not "coming here." I've always been here. I'm a former FSF staff person > who built
Re: Support RMS
* Adrienne G. Thompson [2021-04-14 20:41]: >Ali: > > I am not speaking on behalf of the GNU Project or a team behind a > package. I don't want to cause misunderstanding. It doesn't matter > whether I'm a member of FSF/GNU or not, we're a community, nobody > and no > project is superior to another. I don't like to put the name of GNU > Project/package in front of my name because I don't want to (in any > way) > imply that my opinion matters more or I am talking from a stronger > position. > >It's not about superiority or voicing support from any perceived >stronger position. It's simply about the show of solidarity, so the >public can see that those affiliated with GNU packages support our >founder and Chief Executive. I am totally for showing solidarity, but not for politicizing projects, that introduces other politics into free software. Imagine GNU Guix users, there are young people, old people, people from all over the world, there is one common thing that unites them, that is GNU Guix, and then they find defamatory statements on GNU Guix pages. That is ridiculous, as for reason that GNU Guix is software project, not a platform for whatever other politics, and it divides GNU Guix users, including it is in breach against own Code of Conduct on harassment. In the same way it is not appropriate expressing neither support nor harassment by using various companies or software projects behind. People shall sign it on behalf of person individually. It is not good to speak for others. Let us say project GNU X, has 10 developers and 1500 users, all of them have their own life, now developer 1, signs and says he is behind THIS cause and uses GNU X name, but there is no consent among other developers, even if there is consent, why should 1500 users be brought in connection with whatever private and personal issues. This spoils the project and divides people. So I say, please don't put your project names behind your signatures. Speak for yourself, not for other developers or users who may think you speak for users, even if you don't. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Ali Reza Hayati [2021-04-14 17:53]: > On 14/04/2021 05:26, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote: > > > please indicate the name of the GNU package with which you are > > associated as maintainer, contributor or otherwise. > > > > It is essential that we demonstrate solidarity in the face of the > > ongoing attack. > > > > I am not speaking on behalf of the GNU Project or a team behind a package. I > don't want to cause misunderstanding. It doesn't matter whether I'm a member > of FSF/GNU or not, we're a community, nobody and no project is superior to > another. I don't like to put the name of GNU Project/package in front of my > name because I don't want to (in any way) imply that my opinion matters more > or I am talking from a stronger position. That is good position, there is no need to politicize private opinions and mix it with projects, it looks bad in public, and is also not true representation. Even if it is related to RMS, those are still personal issues related to various other politics that are not free software. But GNU projects are common and interesting and bring people together because we don't include other politics. That is where trouble starts. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
* Deb Nicholson [2021-04-14 18:38]: >Corporations are not behind the call for RMS to be accountable. That is not something either you can prove. My previous email in answer to this was censored, and I do not know which Code of Conduct did I break. > Thousands of individual people, including many former employees and > free software collaborators, have called for him to step aside. No, that is not true. Thousands have signed the defaming letter, but they did not really "call for him to step aside" neither I believe they support the letter in full, because they simply cannot understand it. Those people are good people and support the motion of fair world. I consider only those who personally and reasonably express themselves to call RMS to step aside, others are lured into the fabricated propaganda. > It actually serves the opponents of free software quite well to have > someone who pushes people away and facilitates a hostile > environment, be in charge of the FSF. Quite opposite is true, RMS was never facilitating hostile environment. FSF is not public, but privately founded non-profit, founded by RMS, it is equal as his own, and legally he could, if he would want, keep it totally under his control, but he did not, it is gift to mankind. That you come here with this perversion of truth without any facts or evidences is disgrace. > Also, RMS is not the free software movement. RMS is the core and heart of the free software movement. > It's dangerous to conflate an individual with a movement. To say > that the "free software movement is being attacked" when what's > actually happening is that a bunch of individuals are calling for > one person to take responsibility for their behavior is a sloppy > generalization. This is just trolling. But censor will like your trolling, as that is why your message pass through. > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve > former FSF employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at > conferences or MIT and many, many free software creators. The vast > majority of the people who signed the letter asking for RMS to step > down, care deeply about free software. I wish more of you would try > to consider that. I am also researcher Deb, and I say, if he did something illegal, let those people handle that with him. I have not found anything related to RMS that justifies that type of cyber-bullying online harassment public shaming. Buf if he did not do anything illegal, and somebody complains on his behavior, don't mix that with his capability to lead FSF or speak for free software, it is not related. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
I can't comment on the censored email that no one saw. > It actually serves the opponents of free software quite well to have > someone who pushes people away and facilitates a hostile > environment, be in charge of the FSF. Quite opposite is true, RMS was never facilitating hostile environment. FSF is not public, but privately founded non-profit, founded by RMS, it is equal as his own, and legally he could, if he would want, keep it totally under his control, but he did not, it is gift to mankind. The FSF is a public charity. It is bound by it's US tax status to serve the public good, not a personal goal although of course there is sometimes overlap. As for a hostile environment, I have witnessed repeated hostility (bullying, ad hominem attacks, dog-piling, etc.) on the GNU mailing lists. I have seen RMS shout at people at least a dozen times in public. He inspires others to also interrupt and shout at people in the middle of their public presentations. Those are hostile acts. You may say they are justified, but they are undeniably hostile. That you come here with this perversion of truth without any facts or evidences is disgrace. I'm not "coming here." I've always been here. I'm a former FSF staff person who built LibrePlanet into a multi-day event and helped set up the LibrePlanet wiki and this list. You calling me a liar is a perfect example of the hostility that I'm telling you pervades the FSF and GNU communities. > Also, RMS is not the free software movement. RMS is the core and heart of the free software movement. > It's dangerous to conflate an individual with a movement. To say > that the "free software movement is being attacked" when what's > actually happening is that a bunch of individuals are calling for > one person to take responsibility for their behavior is a sloppy > generalization. This is just trolling. But censor will like your trolling, as that is why your message pass through. More ad hominem. Ok. > It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve > former FSF employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at > conferences or MIT and many, many free software creators. The vast > majority of the people who signed the letter asking for RMS to step > down, care deeply about free software. I wish more of you would try > to consider that. I am also researcher Deb, and I say, if he did something illegal, let those people handle that with him. I have not found anything related to RMS that justifies that type of cyber-bullying online harassment public shaming. Buf if he did not do anything illegal, and somebody complains on his behavior, don't mix that with his capability to lead FSF or speak for free software, it is not related. If free software is a public good and the goal is for more people to use free software, then having a leader who drives people away is at odds with that goal. It's not illegal to poorly mismanage a public charity, but it does break the trust that donors and volunteers have places in the organization and they have a right to speak up about it. Best, Deb Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: [1]https://www.fsf.org/campaigns Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman [2]https://stallmansupport.org/ [3]https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ References 1. https://www.fsf.org/campaigns 2. https://stallmansupport.org/ 3. https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Ali: I am not speaking on behalf of the GNU Project or a team behind a package. I don't want to cause misunderstanding. It doesn't matter whether I'm a member of FSF/GNU or not, we're a community, nobody and no project is superior to another. I don't like to put the name of GNU Project/package in front of my name because I don't want to (in any way) imply that my opinion matters more or I am talking from a stronger position. It's not about superiority or voicing support from any perceived stronger position. It's simply about the show of solidarity, so the public can see that those affiliated with GNU packages support our founder and Chief Executive. Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! GNU C-Graph - [1]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph Code Art Now - [2]http://codeartnow.com Abertheid Campaign - [3]http://www.abertheid.info Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph Let's Link Up: [4]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. http://codeartnow.com/ 3. http://www.abertheid.info/ 4. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Corporations are not behind the call for RMS to be accountable. Thousands of individual people, including many former employees and free software collaborators, have called for him to step aside. It actually serves the opponents of free software quite well to have someone who pushes people away and facilitates a hostile environment, be in charge of the FSF. Also, RMS is not the free software movement. It's dangerous to conflate an individual with a movement. To say that the "free software movement is being attacked" when what's actually happening is that a bunch of individuals are calling for one person to take responsibility for their behavior is a sloppy generalization. It's disappointing that so many people have chosen to disbelieve former FSF employees, hundreds of women who have encountered RMS at conferences or MIT and many, many free software creators. The vast majority of the people who signed the letter asking for RMS to step down, care deeply about free software. I wish more of you would try to consider that. Best, Deb On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 11:23 AM Danny Spitzberg <[1]stationa...@gmail.com> wrote: On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:36 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <[1][2]adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote: > The intent to destroy the Free Software Movement for the purposes of procuring financial advantage might even be criminal and should be investigated This sounds like a big claim. What's the evidence? It's not a "claim". We already know that corporations are behind the attack. I explicitly proposed investigation. I'm sure you know the meaning of "investigate". Here's one definition from [2][3]dictionary.com: "Investigations are usually formal and official. The word ... is used in many other contexts to refer to the process of [3]investigating—systematically finding and examining [4]evidence." It's a claim in the legal sense; any lawsuit you might bring would bring a "claim" and seek adjudication. If you know it as a fact and have evidence that corporations (and if memory serves, certain government agencies) are behind the attacks on our pure and flawless hero, you should add it to [5][4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman for the benefit of all. Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [6][5]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [7][6]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [8][7]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [9][8]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. mailto:[9]adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com 2. [10]http://dictionary.com/ 3. [11]https://www.dictionary.com/browse/investigate 4. [12]https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evidence 5. [13]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman 6. [14]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 7. [15]http://codeartnow.com/ 8. [16]http://www.abertheid.info/ 9. [17]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [18]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [19]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu ss References 1. mailto:stationa...@gmail.com 2. mailto:adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com 3. http://dictionary.com/ 4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman 5. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 6. http://codeartnow.com/ 7. http://www.abertheid.info/ 8. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ 9. mailto:adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com 10. http://dictionary.com/ 11. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/investigate 12. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evidence 13. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman 14. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 15. http://codeartnow.com/ 16. http://www.abertheid.info/ 17. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ 18. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 19. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
> The intent to destroy the Free Software Movement for the purposes of procuring financial advantage might even be criminal and should be investigated This sounds like a big claim. What's the evidence? On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 5:57 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <[1]adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote: On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 6:24 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1][2]a...@gnu.org> wrote: As the lies are still being told and not-at-all-proven accusations go on, I thought it's good to mention the [2][3]https://stallmansupport.org site. It has a link to the support letter and also includes good articles from Nadine Strossen, Hannah Wolfman-Jones, Sylvia Paull, Renata Avila, and Leah Rowe. When you sign the letter supporting RMS at: [3][4]https://codeberg.org/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter/iss ues/1 please indicate the name of the GNU package with which you are associated as maintainer, contributor or otherwise. It is essential that we demonstrate solidarity in the face of the ongoing attack. Thank you Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [4][5]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [5][6]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [6][7]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [7][8]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. mailto:[9]a...@gnu.org 2. [10]https://stallmansupport.org/ 3. [11]https://codeberg.org/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter/issue s/1 4. [12]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 5. [13]http://codeartnow.com/ 6. [14]http://www.abertheid.info/ 7. [15]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [16]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [17]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discu ss References 1. mailto:adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com 2. mailto:a...@gnu.org 3. https://stallmansupport.org/ 4. https://codeberg.org/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter/issues/1 5. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 6. http://codeartnow.com/ 7. http://www.abertheid.info/ 8. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ 9. mailto:a...@gnu.org 10. https://stallmansupport.org/ 11. https://codeberg.org/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter/issues/1 12. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 13. http://codeartnow.com/ 14. http://www.abertheid.info/ 15. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ 16. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 17. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 6:36 PM Adrienne G. Thompson <[1]adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com> wrote: > The intent to destroy the Free Software Movement for the purposes of procuring financial advantage might even be criminal and should be investigated This sounds like a big claim. What's the evidence? It's not a "claim". We already know that corporations are behind the attack. I explicitly proposed investigation. I'm sure you know the meaning of "investigate". Here's one definition from [2]dictionary.com: "Investigations are usually formal and official. The word ... is used in many other contexts to refer to the process of [3]investigating—systematically finding and examining [4]evidence." It's a claim in the legal sense; any lawsuit you might bring would bring a "claim" and seek adjudication. If you know it as a fact and have evidence that corporations (and if memory serves, certain government agencies) are behind the attacks on our pure and flawless hero, you should add it to [5]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman for the benefit of all. Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [6]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [7]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [8]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [9]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. mailto:adriennegayethomp...@gmail.com 2. http://dictionary.com/ 3. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/investigate 4. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evidence 5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman 6. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 7. http://codeartnow.com/ 8. http://www.abertheid.info/ 9. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On 14/04/2021 05:26, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote: please indicate the name of the GNU package with which you are associated as maintainer, contributor or otherwise. It is essential that we demonstrate solidarity in the face of the ongoing attack. I am not speaking on behalf of the GNU Project or a team behind a package. I don't want to cause misunderstanding. It doesn't matter whether I'm a member of FSF/GNU or not, we're a community, nobody and no project is superior to another. I don't like to put the name of GNU Project/package in front of my name because I don't want to (in any way) imply that my opinion matters more or I am talking from a stronger position. -- Ali Reza Hayati (https://alirezahayati.com) Libre culture activist and privacy advocate PGP: 88A5 BDB7 E07C 39D0 8132 6412 DCB8 F138 B865 1771 OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
> The intent to destroy the Free Software Movement for the purposes of procuring financial advantage might even be criminal and should be investigated This sounds like a big claim. What's the evidence? It's not a "claim". We already know that corporations are behind the attack. I explicitly proposed investigation. I'm sure you know the meaning of "investigate". Here's one definition from [1]dictionary.com: "Investigations are usually formal and official. The word ... is used in many other contexts to refer to the process of [2]investigating—systematically finding and examining [3]evidence." Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [7]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. http://dictionary.com/ 2. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/investigate 3. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/evidence 4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 5. http://codeartnow.com/ 6. http://www.abertheid.info/ 7. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 6:24 AM Ali Reza Hayati <[1]a...@gnu.org> wrote: As the lies are still being told and not-at-all-proven accusations go on, I thought it's good to mention the [2]https://stallmansupport.org site. It has a link to the support letter and also includes good articles from Nadine Strossen, Hannah Wolfman-Jones, Sylvia Paull, Renata Avila, and Leah Rowe. When you sign the letter supporting RMS at: [3]https://codeberg.org/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter/issues/1 please indicate the name of the GNU package with which you are associated as maintainer, contributor or otherwise. It is essential that we demonstrate solidarity in the face of the ongoing attack. Thank you Adrienne -- Freedom - no pane, all gaiGN! References: 1. GNU C-Graph - [4]http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 2. Code Art Now - [5]http://codeartnow.com 3. Abertheid Campaign - [6]http://www.abertheid.info 4. Follow me on Twitter @AdrienneGT @GNUcgraph 5. Let's Link Up: [7]https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ References 1. mailto:a...@gnu.org 2. https://stallmansupport.org/ 3. https://codeberg.org/rms-support-letter/rms-support-letter/issues/1 4. http://www.gnu.org/software/c-graph 5. http://codeartnow.com/ 6. http://www.abertheid.info/ 7. https://www.linkedin.com/in/adriennegt/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Support RMS
Dennis Payne writes: > On Tue, 2021-04-13 at 06:37 +0100, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss > wrote: >> Our >> collective actions can counter defamation easily by posting and >> spreading the truth. >> >> Paul > > No it can't. Lots of sources spread correct information about the > election yet a large enough group felt it was wrong and still do. > You are only talking to the people who believe in your cause. The rest > are tuning you out. If there are lots of RMS messages I simply delete > them unread. Sometimes I'll read them if they are short but there are > no persuasive arguments happening here. Either you believe RMS should > be in charge or you don't. I think you are right. People who do not want to know the truth do not analyze the topic deeply. The best is to show our position by actions. In the mean time, we have gotten a lot of free press thanks to the attacks. We need a thick skin, though. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
