Re: [frogs] Da Capos, Codas and Segnos
In message 4b79c831.7080...@hulin.org.uk, Ian Hulin i...@hulin.org.uk writes On 15/02/10 18:47, David Pounder wrote: Dal Segno Al Coda A § B C © D Dal Segno al Coda E == A B C D B C E Firstly, can anyone think of any more combinations I may have missed here? To Trio. Thanks for that, David, but isn't that a variant of Da Capo al Coda ? A B second time to Trio C Da Capo D Trio == A B C A B D . Maybe need to think about adding alternate text for \tocoda. Or Da Capo / Dal Segno al Fine. Most marches I play that are in this form are A B A, where B is the Trio. But you still need to mark the Trio as such - I use the same tricks for Trio as for Coda. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [frogs] Da Capos, Codas and Segnos
In message 4b7bcbfe.80...@hulin.org.uk, Ian Hulin i...@hulin.org.uk
writes
\score {
\header {
title = Trio
}
% Music for Section B of Scherzo, aka Trio, ending with
% Da Capo type markup
}
\score {
\header {
title = Coda % or \markup to generate ¤ (the
hot-cross-bun sign)
}
% Music for Section C of Scherzo, the Coda
}
Don't forget, if I've got a Da Capo or Trio, there is NO WAY I would
want the text in a title block, with all the space that would use up.
Turning pages in a performance is, for bandsmen, usually impractical and
often downright impossible. Wasting a line when I'm trying to cram
everything on a sheet of A5 is just not acceptable :-)
Cheers,
Wol
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Re: development on windows
In message a9a39a210911221146u68f8e532q7bccfd5a7d809...@mail.gmail.com, Frédéric Bron frederic.b...@m4x.org writes create a mount point: $ mkdir /mnt/Share then add the following line to /etc/fstab: Share /mnt/Share vboxsf defaults 0 0 Hmm. Is there any way to have this pre-configured? i.e. tell uses to create C:\lilybuntu-share\ in windows (or create it for them), and have lilybuntu preconfigured to mount this location? Preconfigured in ubuntu yes. It just needs to be done once. Don't know for the Windows part. Only snag is, it assumes the user will be happy with stuff like that on c: That does NOT include me :-) On my system, c: is reserved for Windows and system stuff only. Documents and Settings has been moved to e:, and on any system I set up for friends etc, I do the same. But if you point it at d:, for a lot of people that will be the cd-rom ... (and it will fall foul of the same problem as far as I am concerned :-) You might be best putting a readme on the desktop telling people how to do this (and any other stuff which is dependent on the host system configuration). Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: How about using Gerrit instead of Rietveld?
In message 87d43ekbg4@lola.goethe.zz, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org writes Regression reports for existing regression tests can be put up more or less automatically. And a few other things. No idea just how much something like Gerrit would help. I thought this rang a bell. This article was in lwn for 5th November. It's probably worth taking a look... http://lwn.net/Articles/359489/ Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Copyright/licensing action plan + a sample [PATCH]
In message 200909212115.37013.reinh...@kainhofer.com, Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes Oops - haven't you got that backwards? If they put it under v2 ONLY, aren't they saying they don't agree to any additional FREEDOMS Both are right: They don't agree to additional FREEDOMS in the sense that the user is not free to choose GPLv2 or GPLv3, but they also don't agree to additional RESTRICTIONS: Using GPLv3 would add an additional restriction to the use (DRM, atent claues) and this is prohibited by GPLv2only. All users are be free to use GPLv2 applications in tivo-like machines and that freedom is whatI'm talking about. NO NO NO! Firstly, the user is completely UNaffected by ANY version of the GPL - the GPL *E*X*plicitly says it DOES NOT apply to users. Secondly, if you are distributing code which a copyright owner has licenced v2/v3 then it is YOUR choice whether to distribute it under v2 or v3. Where are the extra restrictions? YOU HAVE A CHOICE. The extra restrictions are only those YOU CHOSE to impose ON YOURSELF. Oh - and if you choose v3, that doesn't stop me from receiving it from you under v3, then distributing it myself under v2. (That's why, actually, I believe that sticking a v2-only notice on code that the author licenced v2+ is a GPL violation - you are adding restrictions by denying the recipient the choice of licence.) Thus lilypond can't link to any (L)GPLv3 library, which would add additional restrictions. such as allowing it to be distributed under v3? No byt linking to a LGPLv3 library, this does not require the application to be GPLv3. However, the LGPLv3 says that you can only link to it if you agree to the DRM- and patent clauses. That's the additional restrictions that LGPLv3 has compared to GPLv2. Thus linking to a LGPLv3 library takes aways rights (e.g. to legally prevent access by using DRM or to sue for patent infringement) that the GPLv2 provided. That's the nub of the whole damn thing :-( but if the library licence is v2 or v3 then the problem goes away. Actually, what the FSF *should* have said, in *all* the GPL licences (although it's a bit late to retrofit v2, sadly) is that if binaries are distributed with source, then the source clause applies and the binaries are legit. That would then permit mixing incompatible GPLs - *provided* the programs came *as* *source*. After all, that's the four freedoms they really want to defend, isn't it? Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Copyright/licensing action plan + a sample [PATCH]
In message 200909221742.07152.reinh...@kainhofer.com, Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes (That's why, actually, I believe that sticking a v2-only notice on code that the author licenced v2+ is a GPL violation - you are adding restrictions by denying the recipient the choice of licence.) You might be denying the reciepient the choice of license. But that does not violate the GPL, since v2+ says: You can use it under the GPL v2, or at your choice any later option. If I'm using it under the GPL v3, I'm not bound by what the GPL v2 says and vice versa. Also note that the GPL only says that you can't take away rights granted by this license (the choice between GPL v2 and v3 is NOT granted by the GPL!). It does not say that all rights that the author originally granted must be preserved... It doesn't say all the rights the author originally granted must be preserved, true ... but it DOESN'T SAY YOU CAN CHANGE THEM! If the GPL doesn't give you the right to change those rights (which it doesn't), then you can't change them. Therefore they MUST be preserved, but it's copyright law that says you can't change them, because the GPL doesn't say you can. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Copyright/licensing action plan + a sample [PATCH]
In message 200909201334.52063.reinh...@kainhofer.com, Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes The LGPLv3 also includes the patents clause and the anti-DRM clause, which both add additional restrictions, which the GPLv2 does not have. On the other hand, all lilypond contributors -- by putting their code under GPLv2only -- explicitly say that they do not agree to any additional restrictions. Oops - haven't you got that backwards? If they put it under v2 ONLY, aren't they saying they don't agree to any additional FREEDOMS Thus lilypond can't link to any (L)GPLv3 library, which would add additional restrictions. such as allowing it to be distributed under v3? (Yes I know I'm being a pedant! But that's why I think demanding contributors use v2 *only* is a bad idea. You're saying they can't grant *more* *freedom* (if that's what they want).) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues
In message 4ab5056a.9010...@webdrake.net, Joseph Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net writes [1] Where the licensing issue might be important is this: what if someone forks Lilypond and adds a bunch of their own code with a different but compatible license statement -- like GPLv2+? It helps clarify the situation if each file has a specific license statement rather than just relying on 'files should be assumed to be under license X unless otherwise stated'. I don't know whether it's been done, but what if someone has added code into lilypond itself under a compatible licence such as GPLv2+? (What do you do if, when asking authors what licence they want you to use, they say v2+ or v2/v3, not v2-only?) The other motivation is if there _is_ a desire to alter the license it might be useful to be able to do this incrementally, e.g. move to (say) GPL2+ all those files where the authors give permission as soon as that permission is given. That's moving forward. The thing that concerns me is that, in my (non-lawyer) opinion, if any non-v2-only code HAS made its way into lilypond, it's a GPL violation to stamp a v2-only licence notice on it. If you want a simple explanation of that, if A grants v2+ to his code, then B gives the code to C saying it's v2-only, firstly B has no right to do that (the GPL says that C gets their licence from A, not B), and secondly the GPL says you can't take away rights granted by the copyright owner. Changing from v2+ to v2-only is such a forbidden change (taking away the recipient's right to change licence). Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues
In message 1253377160.11679.1824.ca...@localhost, John Mandereau john.mander...@gmail.com writes Le samedi 19 septembre 2009 à 07:30 +0100, Graham Percival a écrit : But we *don't* have a licensing situation on a file-by-file basis. Everything[1] under Documentation/ is FDL; everything else[2] is GPLv2. [1] it would be very useful if somebody could create an example to replace cary.ly, since that's non-free. What about keeping Trevor's work under a CC-BY-ND license, in case he agrees with this? If anybody wants to reuse code for any purpose other than quoting the music itself, it will lead to a different enough work so you can consider it can't be a derived work. About other snippets, are you sure there is no other Mutopia snippet in the public domain or under some license other than FDL (say, CC) in the source tree? On the opposite, note that snippets from LSR are public domain, not FDL. Aarrgghh. The snippets are not public domain, unless the author put them there. The *music* may be public domain, but the *arrangement* is copyright whoever wrote the lilypond code (unless you make the argument that the snippet is too small to qualify for copyright). Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues
In message 4ab53f73.1080...@webdrake.net, Joseph Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net writes Anthony W. Youngman wrote: Aarrgghh. The snippets are not public domain, unless the author put them there. The *music* may be public domain, but the *arrangement* is copyright whoever wrote the lilypond code (unless you make the argument that the snippet is too small to qualify for copyright). The snippets are taken from the LSR and a condition of submission to the LSR is that you consign your work to the public domain (and that you have the right to do so). I know, because I submitted a couple of snippets to the LSR and they later made it into the Lilypond docs' selection of snippets. What happens if you're German :-) (I don't know, but there's been a fair bit of discussion, on and off, on debian legal as to whether it is even *possible* for some people to consign their work to the public domain - the *law* apparently says they *can't*) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Copyright/licensing action plan + a sample [PATCH]
In message f329bf540909131736n512e3265tb88d5fc91c88f...@mail.gmail.com, Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com writes On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:29 PM, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk wrote: So your idea is basically postponing the problem to a time, where we might not be able to solve it properly any more? Nope. My idea is basically saying let's face reality. Some people will never agree to or later so let's have a contingency in place. Seeing as that seems to include certain MAJOR contributors like Han-Wen, then having that contingency seems to be a very good idea. Please don't speak for me. I am not opposed to GPL v3, but I don't want to be involved in any of the legal (or laymen-people-interpreting-law) and bikeshedding discussions that this 'upgrade' has to involve. Ie. please reach consensus without me. Apologies if I was out of turn. From what Jan said, I got the impression you were very much against the or later clause, and that's all I've ever attributed to you. If you're not opposed to v3, would you mind sending Joseph (and the list) an email relicensing your code v2 or v3? That way we've moved on a bit. If you've changed your mind about or later and you could relicence v2+ that would be great from Joseph's point of view. Whether the aim is to go v2+ or v3, I hope you agree that, at least, v3 COMPATIBILITY is important, and that you'll help us get there. Then you can leave it to the armchair lawyers :-) Sorry if I'm ruffling feathers, but I'm trying to focus on what is achievable, even if I'm pouring cold water on some peoples' aspirations - I got involved in this thread because I'm interested in legal matters (I track Groklaw, debian.legal ... you see what I mean ...) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Grand PartCombine Rewrite Project
In message blu0-smtp84d7d3e9034ce4ecb118ba94...@phx.gbl, Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes Hello all, I've decided this is going to be my pet project during this, my Autumn of Lilypond. I've started a separate thread here, and would like to get moving on the project as soon as possible. [n.b. I am not intending to cross- post to -user after this announcement email.] 1. Team members. Several people (Wol, etc.) expressed an interest in helping; if you are one of these, please re-confirm your interest here, for thread completeness. If anyone else wants to help, just shout out. Yes, I'm still interested. 2. Lead(s). I don't mind taking the lead on this if nobody else wants that job; however, if anyone *does* want it, I can guarantee you'll do better than I, and am happy to defer. 3. Programming. In order to get this done before, say, 2020, we'll need at least one lead developer with good Scheme-fu to (1) write most of the heavy-lifting code, and/or (2) vet my/our Froggie work. In either case, my goal is to have clean patches to give to Carl/ whomever for final merging, as opposed to banging on his/their door with sketchy code. Well, I want to learn good Scheme-fu, so I'm quite happy to tackle the heavy lifting, but at the moment my tools are made of balsa wood ... :-) 4. Here's my first, naive attempt at listing the areas where a good partcombine must Do The Right Thing: — \relative — \transpose Hopefully, partcombine comes after these two have done their thing (that makes logical sense to me) so if I'm right we can ignore these two. — \times — lyrics — merging/discarding notes rests — merging/discarding text (e.g., markup) — merging/discarding articulations, etc. — adding editorial texts (e.g., a2) — unlimited number of parts Please note, I think it would be a good idea to control a lot of this with switches. Again, I don't know how it's currently done, and this MAY be a stupid idea, but it seems to me that the basic lifting engine should be capable of combining parts, voices, etc etc. It feels to me that combining two parts (each a music expression) into one music expression is logically exactly the same thing as converting two voices (each a music expression) into one music on a staff which feels like it, too, should be a music expression. Quite how practical this is is entirely another matter ... 5. My 3-foot plan on how to proceed is to: — dissect the current implementation to see if anything can be saved/rewritten; — plan the implementation revision/rewrite; and; — do it. Count me in. I want to learn. Just be warned, I do tend to get a grand vision, get a good grip of the detail of what needs to be done, then need a shove to actually get it done. I'm very good for bouncing ideas off, just not so good at actually getting them implemented. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: The \\ construct for simultaneous voices
In message blu149-w35f4018afa3162e0a4ceba94...@phx.gbl, Kieren
MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes
Hi all,
\\ is quite more convenient than explicit voices and thus an important
idiom that makes Lilypond friendlier to the user.
Yes, but as previously discussed, the confusion it (ultimately) causes is a
poor trade-off. The whole problem would be solved if \\ Did The Right Thing,
i.e.
{ musicA } \\ { musicB }
would automagically expand to
{ \voiceOne musicA } \context Voice = 2 { \voiceTwo musicB }
\oneVoice
I can take this on as my next Frog task, if it requires no C++. Then, the
documentation can simply use \\ early on (e.g., in the LM), and show what
it does later.
Dunno if this will require some C++, but I've just tried using \\
instead of partcombine, and neither really do what I want. \\ looked
awful.
I've got two parts - Trombone 1 and Trombone 2. On the music I've got,
they're printed on one piece of music. Obviously I want to enter them as
two separate music variables, so I can print them as one part or two as
appropriate (and I also want, at some point, to print condensed scores
...)
If I use \\, it sort of does what I want - prints the two parts on the
same staff. But it's a right mess - so far I've discovered that if you
have multi-bar rests it just double prints the numbers one above the
other :-( And if one voice ends just before the other has a multibar
rest, the barcount doesn't print. Don't know if there are any other
oddities.
Using partcombine, I think it's doing its job properly. But the result
is a mass of a2, Solo I, Solo II which I don't want. I'd like both
parts printed in full, with only a2 where they're both playing the
same.
Okay, I'm trying to find time to investigate this for myself, but if
somebody else is already looking at this sort of thing, I'll just throw
this into the mix for them...
Cheers,
Wol
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Re: Copyright/licensing action plan + a sample [PATCH]
In message 4aac29f2.1000...@webdrake.net, Joseph Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net writes I'm then entering these details into a Google Docs spreadsheet (which I'll share with anyone who requests it). The same spreadsheet also contains a complete list of contributors (from Francisco's .mailmap) and a note on whether they support switching the license to GPLv2+ and whether they are willing to dual-license doc contributions as GPLv2+. I think you don't understand copyright properly ... DON'T track whether they support switching the licence. Because if they do, they will (presumably already) have switched the licence on their contributions. For each contributor you want to track the licence THEY have used. Obviously, it's v2-compatible - it must be. So I would suggest the spreadsheet contain the following columns ... Contributor, licence, v3 compatible?, date, comment You are exhibiting a touching, blind, blinkered faith in the FSF. If I may speak for Han-Wen, I don't think he shares that faith. There may well be lilypond contributors who don't believe in the GPL, surprising as that may sound! But there's nothing stopping BSD believers (who may find the GPL offensive!) from contributing to lilypond. DO NOT try to switch the licence to v2+. You will probably run into a brick wall! And if the eventual plan is to be v3-compatible you're setting yourself up for failure! Use your spreadsheet to *track* *all* the licences to lilypond, not restrict the licences you can handle to an arbitrary subset of the licences you think other people should use (that attitude is offensive). That way, your spreadsheet will actually BE USEFUL. And it might achieve something POSITIVE. As you describe your intentions, the spreadsheet looks pretty useless at the moment. As it is, I find your emphasis on v2+ offensive, and I doubt I'm alone. Given the choice of v2 or v2+, I'd go for v2 only. But if you ask me what licence would *I* choose?, my reply would be v2/v3. See what I mean about your approach being counter-productive? I repeat. Sod *your* choice of favourite licences. Just *track* the licences contributors have chosen, and then you can also track whether the licences are v3-compatible. If you ask Han-Wen will you change your licence to v2/v3 I think you stand a decent chance of getting a yes. If you ask will you change to v2+? you'll almost certainly get a flat NO! By the way, I said to put a column in the spreadsheet called date. That spreadsheet should be in the source code, probably in a LICENSING subdirectory, along with copies of all the emails contributors send confirming their license. That way you can track how and when people change licensing. (And you're not adding yet ANOTHER dependency, namely Google Docs, that people have to have if they're going to contribute to lilypond. And how do they patch the spreadsheet, if you screw up? I certainly don't want Google Docs on my system!) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: The \\ construct for simultaneous voices
In message f12b2646-e12b-47ae-94aa-3e52294d7...@googlemail.com, James E. Bailey derhindem...@googlemail.com writes On 13.09.2009, at 17:59, Anthony W. Youngman wrote: Using partcombine, I think it's doing its job properly. But the result is a mass of a2, Solo I, Solo II which I don't want. I'd like both parts printed in full, with only a2 where they're both playing the same. I haven't tried it, but under selected snippets for partcombine, there's a bit about combining two parts on the same staff that says that the property printPartCombineTexts can be set to false. Shouldn't that get rid of the solo/a2 texts? James E. Bailey But (I suspect, I haven't tried it) it will probably also lose the associated rests. partcombine loses them which is fine if it prints the solo/a2 stuff, but not if it doesn't. If it hasn't been done, it sounds like it would be a good idea to try and combine the voice combining and part combining code with switches to say how much should be merged/dropped. I'll try and take a look (it'll probably be a good project to learn C++ :-) but as usual my problem is finding time. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: The \\ construct for simultaneous voices
In message 200909140024.50780.reinh...@kainhofer.com, Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes Am Sonntag, 13. September 2009 23:22:04 schrieb Anthony W. Youngman: If it hasn't been done, it sounds like it would be a good idea to try and combine the voice combining and part combining code with switches to say how much should be merged/dropped. I'll try and take a look (it'll probably be a good project to learn C++ :-) That would be a good project to learn scheme / guile. ;-) C++ won't bring you very far, since everything is implemented in scheme I've been thinking about implementing something like that myself (basically controlling combined/split voices via context properties, overriding the bad choices the partcombiner makes). I've just found another glitch ... (although it's a slightly odd one). Again, it's rest-related. One part has r4\fermata, the other has r4. The part as printed is just r4. Correcting the second part to add the fermata does add the fermata to the printed part. And there's something funny about dynamics. Some dynamics print above the staff, some below. And some (despite being identical) print both. Weird. Oh well. I'm thinking I might separate the dynamics into their own voice. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Copyright/licensing action plan + a sample [PATCH]
In message 4aad7567.5060...@webdrake.net, Joseph Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net writes Thanks nevertheless for your useful suggestions -- I hope this email clears up what I do and don't intend. I'll update the licensing part of the spreadsheet accordingly. Sounds good. Best wishes, -- Joe (*) If I _was_ going to try and force my 'favourite license' on people I'd be jumping up and down trying to get everyone to go with the AGPL. But I'm not. So I won't. Sorry. It's just that v2+ kept on coming up despite other emails saying it was not a good idea. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: The \\ construct for simultaneous voices
In message blu0-smtp76a410ac3d24e8496e9aaa94...@phx.gbl, Kieren MacMillan kieren_macmil...@sympatico.ca writes Hi Reinhold, Wol, et al: I've been thinking about implementing something like that myself (basically controlling combined/split voices via context properties, overriding the bad choices the partcombiner makes). What say we make a serious effort at rewriting the partcombiner from the ground up? There are at least three of us who want and are willing to tackle the problem, learn/improve our Scheme as necessary, etc. I can't think of very many feature fixes that would have a bigger bang-for-the-buck. I'm game. My two problems are (1) finding time, and (2) I'll need a fair bit of hand-holding to start off with, I expect. I'm very much a procedurally trained programmer (C, Fortran, *decent* BASICs). Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Copyright/licensing action plan + a sample [PATCH]
In message 200909140059.35325.reinh...@kainhofer.com, Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes Am Montag, 14. September 2009 00:00:28 schrieb Anthony W. Youngman: DON'T track whether they support switching the licence. Because if they do, they will (presumably already) have switched the licence on their contributions. I don't think so. Many contributors simply don't mind a bit about the license and the formalities. Coding and the results are more important than dealing with stupid license headers, etc. Unfortunately, taking an ostrich attitude with the law is rarely productive... You are exhibiting a touching, blind, blinkered faith in the FSF. If I may speak for Han-Wen, I don't think he shares that faith. There may well be lilypond contributors who don't believe in the GPL, surprising as that may sound! But there's nothing stopping BSD believers (who may find the GPL offensive!) from contributing to lilypond. My understanding has always been that contributions should be GPL v2... The overall licence is v2, therefore contributions need to be at least v2-compatible. DO NOT try to switch the licence to v2+. You will probably run into a brick wall! And if the eventual plan is to be v3-compatible you're setting yourself up for failure! I think the eventual plan should be to be GPL-compatible in the long run, so v2+ would really be best. Otherwise we'll have much bigger headaches one GPL v4 comes out and libraries start switching to it. I agree v2+ is best. I just also think people like Han-Wen and Linus have a point. That means that, for some people, the + is going to be a non-starter. Use your spreadsheet to *track* *all* the licences to lilypond, Please, do we really need a law firm to keep up lilypond development? Nope. But being an ostrich doesn't help... if we don't know what licence individual contributors have used, we're going to have problems when v4 comes out... not restrict the licences you can handle to an arbitrary subset of the licences you think other people should use (that attitude is offensive). Huh? We are a GNU project, and the guidelines of GNU are GPL (Which doesn't mean that everyone is forced to use GPL, but that the standard license SHOULD be the GPL). so I don't see the v2+ discussion as offensive, but as the only sane choice that ensures that in 5 years down the road lilypond will still be able to use up-to-date tools. v2+ is sane FOR LILYPOND for exactly the reasons you suggest. But it is INSANE for some developers because it hands control over MY code to YOU (for various values of you - in this case the FSF). for example, what would we do if freetype changed its license to GPL v4 (their freetype license is GPL-incompatible, so we rely on their GPL, which is v2, btw)? We'd be doomed, because we couldn't link to freetype any more. And tracking down early contributors becames harder each day. Well, what would we do now? At least if we know that certain chunks of code are v2 only, we can put contingency plans in place. As it is, I find your emphasis on v2+ offensive, and I doubt I'm alone. Given the choice of v2 or v2+, I'd go for v2 only. But if you ask me what licence would *I* choose?, my reply would be v2/v3. See what I mean about your approach being counter-productive? I repeat. Sod *your* choice of favourite licences. Just *track* the licences contributors have chosen, and then you can also track whether the licences are v3-compatible. So your idea is basically postponing the problem to a time, where we might not be able to solve it properly any more? Nope. My idea is basically saying let's face reality. Some people will never agree to or later so let's have a contingency in place. Seeing as that seems to include certain MAJOR contributors like Han-Wen, then having that contingency seems to be a very good idea. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues
In message 1252655677.8830.236.ca...@heerbeest, Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes Op donderdag 10-09-2009 om 23:47 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Graham Percival: On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 04:37:46PM -0600, Carl Sorensen wrote: On 9/10/09 4:02 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 06:04:17PM +0200, Joseph Wakeling wrote: Yes, but then the FSF went and royally screwed us by making GPLv3 incompatible with v2. For an organization that's supposed to encourage openness and collaboration, this was MONUMENTALLY stupid. The FSF has always adviced and argued to use v2 or at your option any later version. I got tired of arguing with Han-Wen that being paranoid does not bring you anything and gave in to strict v2, so it was *me* who was monumentally stupid. Jan. Well, Han-Wen is in good company - Linus! So I take this to mean all your code is v2+? Whatever Han-Wen said has no influence on YOUR code. And all we need is for Han-Wen to say he's happy with v3, and all your worries have gone away. (The problem is if Han-Wen goes away, but hopefully his will leaves all his copyrights to the FSF :-) You may have been monumentally stupid, but it wasn't arguing about paranoia. It was trying to apply YOUR choice of licence to SOMEONE ELSE'S CODE. That's ALWAYS a stupid idea. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues
In message 3ccb7043-cf70-480b-84d1-27332fda9...@math.su.se, Hans Aberg hab...@math.su.se writes I don't see much point in continuing this discussion further because I don't think you understand what the real problems (or solutions) are, or what the requirements of the GPL (in any version) are. The point is that if you want to be up-to-date with latest GPL in both new restrictions and permissions, the only way to do it is to refer to the latest version when the source is published. Or later will admit later restrictions, or latest will impose them quietly on old sources. BINGO! And this is EXACTLY the problem with your suggestion. You are RETROACTIVELY CHANGING THE LICENCE! As has been pointed out elsewhere, this will have the effect of making what was legal, illegal. What happens if v4 comes out and Joe Bloggs never hears about it? He was happily distributing under v3 perfectly legally, now he's happily distributing under v3 ILLEGALLY. I'm not a lawyer, but if I came across v2 or latest wording, my advice would be to treat it as v2 only because to do anything else IS TOO DANGEROUS. So your wording is self-defeating because no sane distributor would dare take advantage of the or latest clause. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues
In message 4aa828d1.5000...@webdrake.net, Joseph Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net writes Reinhold Kainhofer wrote: ... which I'm sure will NOT hold up in court, so I propose we really end this discussion. Please leave the lawyering to the lawyers and lets go back to coding. Please understand the motivation for OPENING this discussion -- not to debate which license or what license, but to propose a few concrete things the LP coding team can do to clarify licensing and (perhaps) make it easier to upgrade the license if that's desired. I'm very wary of the or later wording - I wouldn't want to push it on people. And there's a whole bunch of licences that are GPL-compatible that people might like to use. I think that the guidelines should say all new code must be licenced compatibly with v2 and v3. The preferred licence is 'v2 or later'. I particularly think it would be a good idea to make sure that all files in the source tree -- code and docs -- have both copyright and licensing statements in them. Yup. And the contributors file should list the over-riding licence chosen by any contributor. That way, if Joe Bloggs licenced everything under v2, then asks you to put him down as licencing his code v2 and v3, that change can be retroactive to ALL his code (there's no problem here because he's granting EXTRA rights). You probably want to put a copy of that email grant with the contributors file. More particularly, does anyone object to me adding a GFDL 1.1 or later notice to the doc files I have written? It's your copyright, licence it as you wish (provided it's not incompatible with what's gone before). One rider - please add the with no invariant sections etc wording so that it's compatible with the Debian Free Software Guidelines. You are aware the GFDL as it stands is not recognised as a Free licence? I'm not sure where you'll find that wording - probably on the Debian website, and almost certainly if you search debian-legal. Best wishes, -- Joe Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues
In message eb078a48-7666-4486-bf94-a29a94abf...@math.su.se, Hans Aberg hab...@math.su.se writes You can't simply go around and change licenses, unless you are the copyright holder! But you are the copyright owner of the LilyPond code. Copyright belongs to the person who wrote the code (sometimes). There is no ONE owner of lilypond - it is spread amongst many. Indeed I personally MIGHT own some copyright in lilypond! There's a good argument I do, it's a grey area! That's the paperwork that is needed: Every contributor, who has until now contributes as GPL v2only, needs to agree to change his/her contributions to GPL v2+. Unless you track down every substantial contributor (git helps in that regard), LilyPond can't switch to GPL v2+. Why? Is there a GNU requirement? - My cursory reading of v3 did not find anything like that. Where does this idea come from? It's nothing to do with GNU. It's the law. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues + Debian
In message 4aa8fadd.5050...@webdrake.net, Joseph Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net writes Now, future policies -- I would suggest new contributions be requested to follow these rules: -- for code, GPLv2 or later or a more liberal compatible license; NO NO NO. Some people are likely to be unhappy with or later. The requirement should be compatible with GPLv2 *AND* GPLv3. But *don't* demand compatibility with licences yet to be written ie GPLv3.1, GPLv4 etc. By all means ask for it, but don't demand it. -- for docs, GFDLv1.1 or later/GPLv2 or later dual license (or more liberal compatible license); GFDL must be with no invariant sections. While the FSF may want invariant sections, it's meant for political diatribes. Do we *really* want chunks of documentation that we can't update as lilypond changes? There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for having invariant sections in what is real documentation, and every reason for NOT having them. -- when altering a file that already exists, use the same license as for the rest of that file (so if someone contributes a code file under a BSD/MIT-esque license, anyone who adds to that file uses the same); Yup. Use the word should rather than must, however - see below. -- patches that make a significant alteration to a file should add the author's name to the copyright notice Along with the author's licence - if the significant alteration is tantamount to a major rewrite, they might want to change the licence. And if the resulting file is mostly their work, then why shouldn't they? Or they might add a completely new function that belongs in that file, but is self-contained and worthy of its own licence. Or if the file is v2 or v3, the author might want to use the more lax v2 or later. Obviously, the licence applied to the patch MUST be fully compatible with the main licence applied to the file. If the patch author wants to apply a GPL patch to a BSD-MIT file, that would only be acceptable under the major rewrite reasoning because it's actually changing the main licence on the file. -- new files should be required to carry a copyright and licensing notice when added to the source code. Yup. Basically, any code more significant than bug-fixes, for which the author can reasonably claim copyright, then copyright should be claimed (or explicitly disclaimed). Note that if all this goes OK, we should then be OK to unilaterally upgrade to GPLv3 (if that's desired). Makes sense. Does this sound good to everyone? Pretty much. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Overview of copyright issues + Debian
In message 200909101742.10364.reinh...@kainhofer.com, Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes Am Donnerstag, 10. September 2009 17:12:42 schrieb Anthony W. Youngman: In message 4aa8fadd.5050...@webdrake.net, Joseph Wakeling joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net writes Now, future policies -- I would suggest new contributions be requested to follow these rules: -- for code, GPLv2 or later or a more liberal compatible license; NO NO NO. Some people are likely to be unhappy with or later. The requirement should be compatible with GPLv2 *AND* GPLv3. ... So we'll have the same problem again in some years... By then it will be even harder tracking down all contributors, who submitted a patch years ago... Hopefully we won't. Hopefully contributors will use the or later version. But the problem with *demanding* or later is that you are *forcing* potential contributors to give the FSF carte blanche to relicence their work. Why should I, having given long and careful thought to the licence I want for my code, allow other people to change those terms without as much as a by your leave? I'm not saying I agree with Linus, but he has his reasons for licencing Linux as v2 only, and I'm sure there'll be people who think he has a valid point! -- for docs, GFDLv1.1 or later/GPLv2 or later dual license (or more liberal compatible license); GFDL must be with no invariant sections. While the FSF may want invariant sections, it's meant for political diatribes. Do we *really* want chunks of documentation that we can't update as lilypond changes? There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for having invariant sections in what is real documentation, and every reason for NOT having them. Huh? nobody ever spoke of adding invariant sections. I though it was clear that our docs would not have invariant sections.. Not to me it wasn't! The original proposal was GFDL for documentation with no reference whatsoever to invariant sections, for or against. -- when altering a file that already exists, use the same license as for the rest of that file (so if someone contributes a code file under a BSD/MIT-esque license, anyone who adds to that file uses the same); Yup. Use the word should rather than must, however - see below. See the introduction before the list: ... be requested to follow these rules... -- patches that make a significant alteration to a file should add the author's name to the copyright notice Along with the author's licence - if the significant alteration is tantamount to a major rewrite, they might want to change the licence. And if the resulting file is mostly their work, then why shouldn't they? Because they are not allowed by copyright law. They cannot change the license if the file is only mostly their work. They can only change the license if the file is SOLELY their work. Sorry - you're wrong there. If the original licence is MIT, and the rewrite is GPL, then copyright law DOES allow them to change the licence DESPITE the file not being all (or even mostly!) their own work. I don't think we should allow a minor GPL change to change the licence for a MIT/BSD file, but it's okay if it's actually a major rewrite. Going back to an earlier point of yours - See the introduction before the list: ... be requested to follow these rules... - that wasn't clear. I think we should drop that be requested (I never saw it ...) and write the rules in rfc-style-speak. Eg Licencing: the licence on any contribution MUST be compatible with GPLv2 and GPLv3. The PREFERRED licence is GPLv2 or later or something more liberal such as MIT/BSD Otherwise it will be perfectly okay - because it says be requested - for people to STILL TODAY contribute GPLv2-only code! And where will the move to v3 go then? Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Lilypond Syntax Development and 3.0
In message 87tz0y5pm0@lola.goethe.zz, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org writes If one has something like a flex/bison syntax and/or a parser library and/on definite rules for what can, can't be done, then one has a lot of flexibility. I think we already have an Antlr syntax, don't we? Although iirc it's not actually used in lily itself, but it would be good to take that as a start. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: RFC: new vertical layout engine
In message 20090726092704.ga3...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes [1] the only thing that comes to mind at the moment is using the American z in words rather than the British s. I just think that -ize looks cooler than -ise. Actually, s is FRENCH, not English :-) Bearing in mind The Times is one of the oldest English newspapers, I gather someone did a study of old editions, and it used zed (not zee!) when zed was the norm long long ago. And it CONTINUED using zed right up to the 1970s, when it finally gave into public pressure and adopted the French ess, some 100 or 150 years after most of the rest of the publishing industry. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: RFC: new vertical layout engine
In message 20090725.163011.184567355...@gnu.org, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes Indeed, I just see that @frenchspacing is only used for French and Japanese (the latter only partially). It should be activated for all languages except, perhaps, English. Note that I don't care what you native speakers actually decide for English :-) As a native English speaker (that's English, not American), I'd say that two spaces are wrong, too. (That said, I know the docs use American, not English, as their main language :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: updating GPL to version 3?
In message f329bf540907010612m42bc3e60o8f2a1b1f008ad...@mail.gmail.com, Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com writes On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 5:16 AM, Jan Nieuwenhuizenjanneke-l...@xs4all.nl wrote: Hmm, I read a bit more in that thread. It looks to me as if 1 there is a basic consensus amongst the core developers that a move to GPL v3 (not sure about GPL v3 or later) is desirable 2a Han-Wen even has done quite a bit of initial paperwork 2b no-one has offered to do the work of tracking down and get permissions/paper work for the remaining authors 2c Han-Wen is not easily inspired to do silly admin stuff esp. sot so when attempted to muscle him into it with do what I tell you disguised in invalid thou-must-bow-for-the-almighty-GNU arguments :-) 3 there is a possibility of transferring copyright to the FSF [or another governing entity], which could have a simplifying/catalizing effect on 1 and/or 2 4. There is no disaster if we leave it GPL v2 as it is. I am sure that there are more interesting bugs in our tracker that need to be dealt with more urgently. If people are happy moving to v3, at least require all *new* stuff to be explicitly v2/v3. That way, lily remains v2, but the hassle of shifting is reduced - when you decide to go for it you can ignore sorting out the copyright of all patches after today, whenever that date was, because you know they're licenced okay already. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: development on windows
In message 20090614225255.ga7...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes 2) I don't know what the current favorite fancy IDE is, although I'm fairly certain that Eclipse runs on Linux. I'm not certain if that would actually be good for LilyPond, though -- does it support C++ and makefiles? IIRC eclipse is for java stuff. Actually, Eclipse is for almost anything ... I seem to remember that IBM are touting it as *the* IDE for developing the U2 databases in (I'm a U2 developer professionally), though I've never been into IDEs so I've not really followed it. Eclipse is (iirc) written in Java, but that doesn't mean it's only meant for Java development (emacs is written in lisp, but it's certainly not used just for lisp development!) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
In message 4a33fbd3.2040...@gmail.com, Jonathan Kulp jonlancek...@gmail.com writes Graham Percival wrote: 3) Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much? - makes pdfs+info. I personally *never* use those formats, but I know that some people still use them. IMO, if we're going to support those formats for the manuals, we should support them for the information that's on the website. For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first when I need to find something. Ditto. In fact, I actively *dislike* html help - I can never find what I'm looking for because a search never finds it, and I can't just scan the document from top to bottom. (At least, I can, if like lily you provide an all in one page option, but in that case I might as well have the pdf, anyways :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: stable/2.12 and tagging of tarballs
In message 1244571546.25811.584.ca...@heerbeest, Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes I talked with Han-Wen about 2.10. The reason that we got up to 2.10.*33*, is that with git, doing stable bugfix releases is almost painless. Very little effort. We have small, contained patches/commits, that can be very easily cherry picked into stable. Now with CVS, it was hairy. This is a very nice and cheap way of supporting users. Users should not run development releases, but having fast-turnover regular stable bugfixing updates is *very* *very* nice. Like that 3/4 6/8 beaming issue ... (for those who didn't spot it, quavers in 3/4 time were grouped in threes!) Now I've got a big chunk of lilypond code with bugfixes for that, that will be redundant as soon as I upgrade. Imho it's a broken methodology that makes users put one version only bugfixes into their code. Fortunately, here, the user code is not going to be broken by a lily upgrade, but I expect that has (and will) happen. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [PATCH] should it be @code{\\addInstrumentDefinition} ?
In message 481039.28862...@web83406.mail.sp1.yahoo.com, Mark Polesky markpole...@yahoo.com writes However, the \a is still showing up as a control character 0x07, which I'm assuming means alarm? It's listed as bell here: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0007/index.htm If you read the standard definition of ascii, I think you'll find 0x07 is *defined* as bell. It's the character that, when printed to an old-fashioned teletype, is supposed to ring the bell. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: GUB on kainhofer: still cross/gcc
In message 1244195981.25811.178.ca...@heerbeest, Jan Nieuwenhuizen janneke-l...@xs4all.nl writes Op donderdag 04-06-2009 om 10:46 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Anthony W. Youngman: I think that's a pretty usual setup (most people I know have a 32bit version of Linux installed on their laptop even though their CPU is actually 64bit). Sometimes it makes sense to do what most people do, esp. if you do it as a deliberate choice :-) Just as long as you're aware of the consequences ... what most people do is usually a pretty stupid thing to do. Following the herd is fine if you don't want to stand out, but if you want to make your mark it's not an option. Note also, that running 32-bit on a 64-bit system can OFTEN be a performance WIN, so you DON'T want to upgrade just because you can. I call BS. Ref please? Are you saying that 64-bit code is *inherently* more efficient than 32-bit on a 64-bit system? As I understand it, the CPU doesn't give a monkeys whether the code is 32 or 64 bit. But. Compile *the* *same* program, in both 32 and 64 bit mode. The 64-bit executable will be larger, maybe by quite a lot! This can easily hurt the program, as the program becomes too large to fit in cache, loops become too large to fit in the CPU cache, the OS scheduling mechanism penalises large programs over small, etc etc. As I understand it, the rule is if you don't need 64-bit mode, then your executable will be smaller in 32-bit mode, therefore it won't run slower but could well run faster precisely because it is smaller. If you *DO* need 64-bit mode, of course running in 32-bit mode will be far slower because the cost of emulating 64-bit in 32-bit is expensive. I can't give an actual reference, I'm afraid, but - I think it was on the database mailing list I'm on - they were saying benchmark your app and I think they had several such benchmarks that said small systems ran better in 32-bit mode, even on a 64-bit processor. Greetings, Jan. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: GUB on kainhofer: still cross/gcc
In message 200905312229.35014.reinh...@kainhofer.com, Reinhold Kainhofer reinh...@kainhofer.com writes Am Sonntag, 31. Mai 2009 21:22:41 schrieb Jan Nieuwenhuizen: Op zaterdag 30-05-2009 om 22:46 uur [tijdzone -0700], schreef Graham Percival: Any more tips? I'd really like to get this working so I can make releases. Oh, you can also try to not waste your hardware resources and confuse softwary by just installing 64 bits ;-) No, he can't, because it's my server, and I won't do any reinstall in the near future. Initially, I wasn't even aware that the server has a 64 bit CPU (and even if I were, back then I didn' t have enough trust in the 64bit OS releases), so it was set up with kubuntu 32bit. And even now I would set it up with 32bit again, since I don't want to build all my custom packages twice (I'm managing more computers than just that server). Also, given my experience with creepy bugs in Korganizer, caused by 64bit versions of libraries and other incompatibilities, I still don't trust 64bit OSes enough to install it on a production server. I think that's a pretty usual setup (most people I know have a 32bit version of Linux installed on their laptop even though their CPU is actually a 64bit). Note also, that running 32-bit on a 64-bit system can OFTEN be a performance WIN, so you DON'T want to upgrade just because you can. The main reason for upgrading to 64-bit is to make efficient use of memory above 4Gb. If you can then run 32-bit apps over a 64-bit OS, that'll often be the best combination, as the binaries are smaller, are more likely to run from cache, etc etc. So, in short, if you have less than 4Gb ram, you should probably stay 32-bit. Even if you have more, is the gain worth the pain? Often it isn't. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Fwd: [Savannah-announce] Savannah outage
In message f329bf540905290552g7be33cdfo8fcbaf320fe7f...@mail.gmail.com, Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com writes -- Forwarded message -- From: Sylvain Beucler b...@gnu.org Date: Fri, May 29, 2009 at 5:07 AM Subject: [Savannah-announce] Savannah outage To: savannah-annou...@gnu.org Hi, Savannah experienced a filesystem corruption and is now halted. The FSF sysadmins (who have physical access to the hardware) are alerted and will investigate, and possibly restore from backup. To be safe, do not expect the service to be restored before 24h, although we'll do our best to do so :) The website, CVS/SVN/Git/Hg/Bzr, and the download area are affected. The mailing lists and webpages are not affected. Minor nit, what time zone? I know the email was sent at 5:07 am, but was that 1 pm my time? If I try to connect at 5 am saturday my time, I strongly suspect it won't be working because they won't have had 24 hours to fix it... (Sod's law, I was planning on reloading my git repository about now :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: DOCS: include a sample Makefile?
In message 4a0d9dd6.4070...@gmail.com, Jonathan Kulp jonlancek...@gmail.com writes Anthony W. Youngman wrote: parts: for LILYFILE in Parts/*.ly ; do $(LILY_CMD) $$LILYFILE ; done mv *.pdf $(OUTDIR)/ It works exactly as it did with the GNU wildcard, except that multiple files can't be compiled at once with separate processors. I'll probably stick with the GNU wildcard approach in my personal makefiles, or else have both lines in there with one commented out. My bash-fu is minimal to non-existent, but couldn't you do something like for LILYFILE in Parts/*.ly ; do $(LILY_CMD) $$LILYFILE ; done wait mv *.pdf $(OUTDIR)/ ? I'm sure there's a command, and I think it is wait, that says to wait and collect status from all the jobs you've just spawned, so the mv wouldn't run until all the LILY_CMD commands had completed. Cheers, Wol It already waits until all of the files have been run before moving them. It just loops until it has done all of the files, then proceeds to the next line and does the mv command. I think you missed the in my code :-) If the wait isn't there, the mv will fail because there won't be any *.pdf files for it to move. Werner's point about multiple invocations of lilypond is very valid, but on a multi-processor machine my technique will use all processors. It'll probably be a bit slower on a uni-processor, though. To explain ... let's say there are 10 lily files to process, each of which takes maybe 30 secs? My bash-fu thinks this technique will run lily 10 times, once for each file. WITHOUT the ampersand, the 10 instances run in sequence, taking 5 minutes, and then the code moves on to the mv. WITH the ampersand, all ten instances are fired off at once, taking maybe 15 seconds, and then the code moves on to the next line. If that's the 'mv', then it won't find any pdfs! That's the point of the wait - to say wait until all the lilys have finished before carrying on. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: DOCS: include a sample Makefile?
In message 4a0d4529.9080...@gmail.com, John Mandereau john.mander...@gmail.com writes pe...@chubb.wattle.id.au a écrit : If you use GNU extensions, then here's the Makefile I generally use, to convert everything in the current directory. Your makefile is certainly useful for many pruposes, but it doesn't take included files into account: it will try to build those who have a .ly extension, which may do nothing at best (when there is no \score block or toplevel music expression) or crash at worst (if some included files rely on the fact that some variables are already defined in another file which is included in some higher level file); it will also ignore any dependencies on included files not named *.ly or in other directories, which is a bit annoying for a makefile. Maybe we should recommend naming included files with extension .ily rather than .ly in the LM, e.g. in Suggestions for writing LilyPond files? My lily files all start with an identifier as to what sort of file they are. So all of my notes are in a voiceInstrument.ly file. The actual part definition that produces the pdf is in a partInstrument.ly file. So I could just use part*.ly as my wildcard for the files I actually wanted make to run on. That's an alternative to creating a new .ily extension, though that is a good idea - it would make it a lot harder to run lily on a file that wasn't meant to be done stand-alone :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: DOCS: include a sample Makefile?
In message 4a0d8c1f.8020...@gmail.com, Jonathan Kulp jonlancek...@gmail.com writes Werner LEMBERG wrote: parts: $(LILY_CMD) $(wildcard Parts/*.ly) mv *.pdf $(OUTDIR)/ `wildcard' is a GNU extension. It can be circumvented with shell commands, however, I suggest to name the part files explicitly. Pity. In that case, the original approach is best for portability I suppose. Here's how I have the parts target now: parts: for LILYFILE in Parts/*.ly ; do $(LILY_CMD) $$LILYFILE ; done mv *.pdf $(OUTDIR)/ It works exactly as it did with the GNU wildcard, except that multiple files can't be compiled at once with separate processors. I'll probably stick with the GNU wildcard approach in my personal makefiles, or else have both lines in there with one commented out. My bash-fu is minimal to non-existent, but couldn't you do something like for LILYFILE in Parts/*.ly ; do $(LILY_CMD) $$LILYFILE ; done wait mv *.pdf $(OUTDIR)/ ? I'm sure there's a command, and I think it is wait, that says to wait and collect status from all the jobs you've just spawned, so the mv wouldn't run until all the LILY_CMD commands had completed. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: tempoMark - documentation and use
In message 4a0907a4.2080...@gmail.com, Jonathan Kulp
jonlancek...@gmail.com writes
Graham Percival wrote:
Yes, come up with another score marking. Granted, it might get
[snip]
Before I make a bunch of replacements and a patch, can anyone see a
potential problem with changing the example in LM 5.1.5 to use these
functions instead:
%%
mpdolce = #(make-dynamic-script (markup #:hspace 1 #:translate (cons 5 0)
#:line(#:dynamic mp #:text #:italic dolce )))
inst = #(define-music-function (parser location string) (string?)
(make-music
'TextScriptEvent
'direction UP
'text (markup #:bold (#:box string
\relative c'' {
\tempo 4=50
a4.\mpdolce d8 cis4--\glissando a | b4 bes a2
\once \override Score.RehearsalMark #'padding = #2.0
\inst clarinet
cis4.\ d8 e4 fis | g8(\! fis)-. e( d)-. cis2
}
%%
I got the inst function from the LSR and it seems like a good one to
use in a discussion of stylesheets and storing variables in separate
\include files. If it looks o.k. then I'll change all of the instances
of the previous tempoMark to inst in LM 5.1.5.
Now there's also a tempoMark function defined in NR 6.1.2, Interfaces
for programmers. My instinct is to leave this one alone--it is not
obsolete, since the predefined \tempo command does not take a $padding
argument like this bit of scheme does, right? Here's the code in
question:
%%%
tempoMark = #(define-music-function (parser location padding marktext)
(number? string?)
#{
\once \override Score . RehearsalMark #'padding = $padding
\once \override Score . RehearsalMark #'extra-spacing-width =
#'(+inf.0 . -inf.0)
\mark \markup { \bold $marktext }
#})
Ahhh ...
This is the revised version I was advised to use when the other version
broke. So it is valid 2.12, and I don't see any problem in leaving it.
Cheers,
Wol
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Re: PDF Problem
In message 23486715.p...@talk.nabble.com, Dewdman42 st...@bstage.com writes If I knew how I would. isn't it obvious that a few people hold the power to control the development of lilypond while the rest of us are mere mortals? It's Free Software. He who puts in the effort makes the rules. I had a project I started taken away from me because somebody put in rather more effort than I did - and he took it down a route I was very unhappy with. But he put the time in, he did it his way. As far as I was concerned that was tough, but that's the way it works! If *you* want to control the development of lilypond, it's DEAD EASY. Just put in some effort of your own! I've put in time, I've put in money, and (some) things I want have gotten done. As Han-Wen says, people are doing things because *they* want it done. If the fact pdf's look duff on screen is bugging *you*, then it's *your* responsibility to do something about it. I agree. They do look duff. But at the end of the day *I* want good PRINTOUTS, and they look superb. So I don't give a monkeys about the duff screen. It's like midi - that's duff too. Are you going to fix it for us? If not, don't expect us to fix the screen for you! Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: tempoMark - documentation and use
In message c62c777e.9200%c_soren...@byu.edu, Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes On 5/9/09 4:21 PM, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk wrote: So - is there a function that combines stencils? Or where can I find the code for \default (I did look ...) so I can try and write a defaultPlus function that takes a string argument ... I found the LSR example that combines the rehearsal mark with segnos, codas etc but that looks an awful palaver... There is a function that combines stencils: (ly:stencil-add stencil-one stencil-two) Thanks! My immediate problem has been solved by \tempo, but this will hopefully be a start into me playing with scheme properly. There are also functions (stack-stencils axis dir padding stils) and (stack-stencils-padding-list axis dir padding-list stils) You can find these functions in scm/stencil.scm and lily/stencil-scheme.cc (which is only available in the source code, but can be found at the git repository if you don't have the source code on your machine). I've got a git repo on my gentoo system (if I can remember where it is and how to update it :-) Thank you very much. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: tempoMark - documentation and use
In message c62c777e.9200%c_soren...@byu.edu, Carl D. Sorensen
c_soren...@byu.edu writes
On 5/9/09 4:21 PM, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk
wrote:
So - is there a function that combines stencils? Or where can I find the
code for \default (I did look ...) so I can try and write a defaultPlus
function that takes a string argument ... I found the LSR example that
combines the rehearsal mark with segnos, codas etc but that looks an
awful palaver...
There is a function that combines stencils:
(ly:stencil-add stencil-one stencil-two)
There are also functions (stack-stencils axis dir padding stils) and
(stack-stencils-padding-list axis dir padding-list stils)
You can find these functions in
scm/stencil.scm
and
lily/stencil-scheme.cc (which is only available in the source code, but
can be found at the git repository if you don't have the source code on your
machine).
Thanks again, but now I've tried to use this ...
I'm assuming that \default and \markup return stencils, but I don't seem
to be able to pass them to stencil-add.
Reading the manual, I tried the following two:#
stencilAdd = #(define-music-function (parser location stencila stencilb)
(ly:stencil? ly:stencil?)
stencil-add stencila stencilb
)
#(define (combineStencils stencil-a stencil-b)
stencil-add stencil-a stencil-b
)
which seem to compile fine (and I get the impression they're actually
identical, just defined differently :-) But both of them object when I
try to pass them any arguments. I get unexpected \default or
unexpected \markup or unexpected STRING or whatever ...
\stencilAdd { \default \markup Little Bird, Little Bird }
\combineStencils \markup 123 \markup abc
\combineStencils 123 abc
E:/Documents and Settings/Anthony/My Documents/My
Music/lilypond/Concert/_ManOfLaMancha/voiceStaff.ly:71:22: error: syntax
error, unexpected STRING
\combineStencils 123
abc
Am I wrong in thinking \default and \markup return stencils? Or what's
going wrong? It seems clear to me that I'm not passing in what's
expected to the function, but, to my (very limited) understanding, it
all appears correct...
Cheers,
Wol
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tempoMark - documentation and use
I've got a problem with this ... I don't know if it's been dealt with in the documentation but in the 2.12.2 manual section 4.3 (and 12.1.2), this function still uses no-spacing-rods, which 2.12 doesn't support. I was advised to use extra-spacing-width so I'm not affected, but anyone who copies the documentation will get caught. And I'm having a problem using it. It over-rides rehearsal.mark, but tempo declarations typically occur at rehearsal marks! So clashing marks means my tempo declarations get thrown away! I tried creating a copy of tempoMark and adding a \default to it, but it didn't like it ... reading the manual I guess both \default and \markup return stencils, but \markup doesn't like being passed a stencil :-) So - is there a function that combines stencils? Or where can I find the code for \default (I did look ...) so I can try and write a defaultPlus function that takes a string argument ... I found the LSR example that combines the rehearsal mark with segnos, codas etc but that looks an awful palaver... Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: linux distro recommendations?
In message 20090508110915.ga2...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes On Fri, May 08, 2009 at 03:03:12AM -0700, Mark Polesky wrote: I'm thinking about finally running the (windows-linux me) procedure, and I'm wondering what distros you developers prefer to use (and why). Developers: debian, because it's the only sane choice. New users: ubuntu, because it's shiny. And Ubuntu is a debian derivative, so they're just one choice anyway :-) Honestly, any answer you get will either be well, they all have their strengths and weaknesses, so it's really up to you, rampant flamebait and mindless self-cheerleading, or thinly-veiled flamebait and very-slightly-thoughtful self-cheerleading. I just decided to cut to the chase by including all three in my email. :) Well, I'd say gentoo (or similar) was the only sane choice for developers :-) But it wouldn't be a sane choice for you, if you're thinking of leaving Windows. It's NOT a good first distro choice. As a first distro, I'd agree with Ubuntu or Kubuntu (try and have a play on someone's system with both Gnome and KDE - see which one suits you best). Or (and it's not very popular at the moment) try and get a copy of SuSE 11. I've long been a SuSE fan. You can get liveCDs of all three to try out and see what you think. And if you want a learn the hard way distro (which I *would* *strongly* recommend, but you really want a bit more experience than just Windows), then try Slackware. Oh - and the thing about Slackware - it has the reputation of booting and installing on pretty much ANYTHING. A lot of liveCDs and distros have trouble booting on some hardware - they'll recognise anything modern, but often will choke on something a bit older. I could never get liveCDs to work on my system. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: CG Information on Snippet Handling
In message 20090424150621.ga5...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes Can we build a text version, or at least an info version, of the CG fairly early in the build process? if it can be done quickly, could this even be part of the ./autogen.sh process (just like INSTALL) ? Oh MAO No.! text is okay, but if you mean GNU info, I absolutely HATE that. A simple text or pdf that I can read top-to-bottom is fine, but please DON'T foist on us a hypertext system that a lot of people don't have a clue how to use. RMS goes on about choice, then tries to foist info on everyone! That's one of the few things that I really don't trust his judgement about! Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: tab characters in the source code
In message 20090412.081216.173533445...@gnu.org, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org writes And wait, once we've founded our new group and taken over the world, they'll have to call themselves ZEBRA Zebra :-) This is not uncommon. For example, the common toad is called `Bufo bufo' in Latin; the human race is `Homo sapiens sapiens', etc., etc. I can beat that :-) And for a very small bird it's got a very long name ... Troglodytes troglodytes troglodytes. Otherwise known as Jenny Wren Werner Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: tab characters in the source code
In message f329bf540904082104i2510ad5dg1a57ad1ab4e1e...@mail.gmail.com, Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com writes On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu wrote: As to LY not accepting tabs, thats a shame, tabs should be treated as white space, along with bel nul lf VT and other now-disused characters from the days of teletypes which sometimes find their way into ascii files from odd unix and dos systems; this is done in the postscript language. Except perhaps in lyrics, where they might well be used to demarcate syllables. LilyPond accepts tabs just fine; they're whitespace. If you want to put tab characters in your LilyPond source you can do so. Programming standards for LilyPond call for avoiding the tab character. We're free to choose whatever programming conventions we want for our source code. I don't think it is a standard, but I would not mind making it a standard. Someone else will know more than me, but I think the linux kernel standards say here's a pretty-printer definition, any patches should be cleaned up with this first. If we can get a similar definition for lily, the standards can say use it to clean up your code before submitting, and if you modify code that doesn't comply with the standard, submit your changes and the pretty print as two different patches. That way, the code will tend to a standard, and if other people prefer to work with a different standard they can create their own pretty print definition and they'll just have to work as pretty-print to my standard, modify, pretty-print to lily's standard, submit. Han-Wen (being trained to avoid tabs during daytime) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: tab characters in the source code
In message 20090409143812.ga4...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes Oh sweet $DIETY yes. I /hate/ it when people fix bugs in my code. It's like, guys, I'm perfect, duh! Like, I added those bugs for a reason! Is that like abstaining from $CHOCOLATE? Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Concert Pitch (a second try)
In message c5fff654.868e%c_soren...@byu.edu, Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu writes I'm going to step in here, perhaps where wise men fear to tread. The LilyPond music glossary isn't intended to be a definitive music dictionary, is it? So do we care what reference concert pitch uses? Does it matter if it's A=440, or A=445, or A=450? It does matter that the reference is accurate. Aren't the key issues that: 1) Concert pitch is established relative to some frequency standard. 2) Transposing instruments use notation relative to some other frequency standard, such that a C in the transposing instrument notation is the same frequency as the transposing instrument's note in concert pitch. Thus, when a player playing a Bb clarinet plays what's notated in the Bb clarinet part as a C, it sounds as a Bb in concert pitch. I think you're right ... It seems to me that all the rest of the information is more than is needed for the LilyPond glossary; it's available in some other music dictionary. But a little extra information always helps. I find understanding WHY is always a good idea. The trouble is there are far too many corner cases, and in trying to be simple and short, people keep on coming up with exceptions. And, while I don't want to plug my instrument as an example, I've come across too many cases here with lilypond and elsewhere where people don't understand how to correctly notate transposing instruments, that I think a bit of extra information is important. Of course, I barely qualify as a musician, so don't feel any obligation to follow my suggestions. :-) Carl Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Concert Pitch (a second try)
In message 87skkl7zry.wl%pe...@chubb.wattle.id.au, Peter Chubb lily.u...@chubb.wattle.id.au writes I reckon it'd be better to split the whole thing into three entries. Whether an instrument transposes or not has nothing to do with concert pitch. I'm reasonably happy with this, and am happy to wait for Kurt to chime in, with the following proviso - I think many of these entries should lead the reader towards further research if they need it. I'll comment by each entry. Here's my rough try at the three entries: Concert Pitch: Notes like a, b, c etc., describe a relationship between themselves, not an absolute pitch. The nature of the relationship is the so-called temperament (q.v.). To be in tune, a group instruments must agree on the relationship between pitches *and* the absolute pitch of one of the notes. In recent times that pitch, `concert pitch' has been defined as 440Hz for the A above middle C, with other notes arranged according to the temperament being used. Mention that concert pitch is often taken to mean an agreed standard rather than the official definition, and that there are other standards around. Temperament: the relationship between different pitches in a scale. In the simplest case, an *equal-tempered* system has notes whose frequencies are in the ratio of the twelfth root of two. Such a system always sounds out-of-tune, because thirds, fourths and fifths are not exact ratios. However it is widely used because all notes are equally spaced, regardless of the starting note of a scale. Transposing Instrument: If an instrument is usually notated at a pitch other than its sounding pitch (whether out of tradition, or for the convenience of the player) it is said to be a *transposing instrument.* Bes and A Clarinets, many brass instruments, and some saxophones are transposing instruments. Where do we put stuff about the meaning of Bb Trombone in Bb. That ought to be in a lilypond manual somewhere. Maybe we should have a Basic Elements of Notation? But so many people get it wrong (me included :-) my colleagues moan at me for marking music as Bb Trombone when it's in C!), and while I know lilypond makes fixing it dead easy, it's a bit of a disaster to plonk some music in front of a player and then the rehearsal goes all wonky because the person who laid out the music got all the conventions wrong and the player's reading it in the wrong pitch! The other comment I'd make is that my rewrite attempted not to stray too far from what is currently in the glossary. -- Dr Peter Chubb http://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au peterc AT gelato.unsw.edu.au http://www.ertos.nicta.com.au ERTOS within National ICT Australia A university is a non-profit organisation only in the sense that it spends everything it gets ... Luca Turin. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Concert Pitch (a second try)
In message twig.1239044151.63...@suffolk.lib.ny.us,
dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes
On Sun, Apr 5, 2009, Anthony W. Youngman
lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk said:
Okay, we've got more feedback (isn't this fun :-).
welcome to electronic commiteedom :-)
1.64 Concert pitch
The convention (standardised by ISO 16) that A above middle C represents
the note at 440 Hertz. This is commonly notated by the statement
A=440.
slight rewording -
The Convention (formally affirmed in 1975 as ISO 16) that musical
instruments shall be designed and tuned so that A4 ('A' above middle 'C')
sounds at 440HZ, Concisely phrased as A=440.
Sounds good.
There are many other conventions, such as diapason normal which was
established by French law as A=435. Many of these conventions have
fallen into disuse, although there are orchestras which typically tune
to other pitches (usually pitching A slightly higher in order to sound
brighter).
not quite on the mark for me.
Other reference pitches have been informally adopted and even legislated,
most are now disused, but several orchestras and ensembles specializing
in early music adopt other reference pitches better suited to the replica
instruments they use. Some modern orchestras perform at slightly higher
pitch (eg A=445) on the theory that the violins sound brighter; to the
consternation of the wind players.
This sounds very cart before the horse. It's like when people say, for
example, Yorkshire English is wrong because it's not the Queen's
English. Hang on - Yorkshire English was in roughly its present form
before the Queen's English was even thought of!
I think it's your use of informally adopted that jars - it implies
that they've ignored the Standard, when the standard didn't even exist
at the time.
Thinking conservativly, maybe we can leave off this last sentance. Its
true enough, but perhaps inflamatory?
Regardless of the exact frequency of A, instruments which play the
standard frequency upon reading the note A
only the note A? h.
Sorry to keep beating this horse, but it aint dead yet. I think the
discussion is much easier to introduce with a little background, something
like this.
Many Orchestral instruments developed as families, varying by fundamental
pitch. Composers will often take advantage of the contrasting tone colors
of these otherwise similar instruments, players have to be capable of
reading for each of them at sight. It is challenging to maintain sight
reading skills on several instruments, eg 'C' Clarinet and 'A' clarinet,
where a particular note, say, D4, has different fingerings on each. The
convention of writing some instruments parts in transposition is employed
to deal with this.
Certain instruments within each family are selected by convention to play
at the pitch that is notated, they are said to be 'in C', or 'at concert
pitch'.
What about those families (ie pretty much ALL the brass instruments)
that don't have a member at concert pitch!
Interestingly, nearly all transposing instruments are fairly new in
their modern form. I suspect the reason the trombone is such a funny
instrument in that sense is that it is an old instrument (which is why
it's written at concert pitch), but because every instrument it plays
with in bands is a transposing instrument, it became a transposing
instrument.
Music for the other menbers of each family is written transcribed
by an appropriate interval so that the fingerings, slide position,
valveing or whatever technique is associated with the written notes will
always be the same, and the piches produced will be as the composer
desired. The player reading from a transposed part pretends to be playing
an instrument 'in C'; assuming the part was correctly transposed and the
player has the corresponding instrument in hand it all works out.
Typically, these are instruments
with multiple sounding parts such as tuned percussion or strings.
my first thought for 'tuned percussion' is tympani (which jars against the
concept of multiple sounding parts) maybe a more specific example?
The word tympani is plural :-) The tympani do have multiple sounding
parts, one per drum ie several sounding parts for the complete
instrument :-) Oddly enough, tympani was one of the first things I
thought of, too...
... such as Marimba, Harp, Viola.
These are typically instruments with a single
sounding part such as brass and woodwind.
Counter examples are Guitar and Lute, both of which have awkward ranges
and use an octave G clef when noted in staff; often employing tablature (a
sortof transposing notation) to facillitate reading when used in families.
Do we need this at all?
It's so hard to be definitive. Anything we write will need to be just a
guide and this distinction actually seems to cover most bases.
See also: transposing intruments and wikipedia entry
for concert pitch 'A440'.
-=-=-=-=-=-
enough in this post
I'm going to stick mostly with my definition
Concert Pitch (a second try)
Okay, we've got more feedback (isn't this fun :-). I'll try and do it again, following on from the comment that the existing (and my replacement) entries actually try to cram too much into the entries. 1.64 Concert pitch The convention (standardised by ISO 16) that A above middle C represents the note at 440 Hertz. This is commonly notated by the statement A=440. There are many other conventions, such as diapason normal which was established by French law as A=435. Many of these conventions have fallen into disuse, although there are orchestras which typically tune to other pitches (usually pitching A slightly higher in order to sound brighter). Regardless of the exact frequency of A, instruments which play the standard frequency upon reading the note A are typically referred to as playing in concert pitch or in C. Typically, these are instruments with multiple sounding parts such as tuned percussion or strings. Instruments which play a completely different note are referred to as transposing instruments. These are typically instruments with a single sounding part such as brass and woodwind. For some instruments, both the standard pitch and transposing conventions end up with the same result as regards the actual printed music, eg the flute, or a C trumpet. See also: transposing intruments and wikipedia entry for concert pitch. 1.311 transposing instruments Instruments where the written note is not the note that the instrument is intended to play, according to standard pitch. The reason for this is to make it easy for players to switch between similar instruments that have different fundamental pitches. Depending on the design of the instrument, some instruments have a lowest (pedal) note whose wavelength is twice the length of the instrument and can play all harmonics thereof (1/2, 2/2, 3/2...), while others have a pedal note whose wavelength is four times the length of the instrument but can only play the odd harmonics thereof (1/4, 3/4, 5/4 ...). For brass instruments, the fundamental pitch of the instrument is that where the wavelength of the note is the same as the length of the instrument. This note is written as middle C in the treble clef, and such music is normally referred to as being in X, indicated by the part being notated as for X instrument. For example, an A trumpet would be (approximately) 78cm long (343m/s divided by 440/s = 78cm) and the music would be referred to as being in A, with the instrument denoted as A trumpet. All brass instruments fall into the category of those whose pedal note has a wavelength twice that of the instrument. FIXME - can a woodwind player expand this Woodwind instruments can fall into either category of pedal note - the clarinet is an example of an instrument with a pedal note with a wavelength four times the length of the instrument. FIXME - how is middle C defined for a woodwind instrument? When writing music for a transposing instrument, it is normal to refer to the instrument by its fundamental, eg Bb Trumpet, A clarinet. It is assumed the music is in Bb or A. If the instrument (eg flute) is normally notated in treble clef, then either the instrument's fundamental or the transposition should be mentioned if it is not in standard pitch (alto flute in G, G flute). If the music is in C, the instrument's fundamental should NOT be mentioned, and it should be notated as in C only if required to avoid confusion. The intentional side-effect of this convention is that, for all instruments in the same family, they share the same fingering for any given written note. -- Can anybody come up with any improvements on this? Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)
In message cez5aic5po1jf...@thewolery.demon.co.uk, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk writes In message mj9t1jgcvk1jf...@thewolery.demon.co.uk, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk writes Ow! Sorry, reading this was painful (I play the trombone, as many of you know :-) Replying to myself ... Just in case anyone didn't realise (and I certainly didn't make myself clear :-) these are my revised versions that I think should replace the existing entries. Feel free to edit and improve. Okay, I think I can modify this to a definitive version now ... Cheers, Wol 1.64 concert pitch The pitch at which the piano and other non-transposing instruments play, such music is said to be 'in C'. Officially, it is defined as A = 440, meaning that the note A in the treble clef indicates a sound that has a frequency of 440Hz. There are other standard frequencies, but they have mostly fallen into disuse. This convention is used for (almost?) all instruments with multiple sounding parts, eg tuned percussion and strings. Instruments with a single sounding part (woodwind, brass) follow a different convention and are generally known as transposing instruments, although for some instruments (eg flute, oboe), the two conventions lead to the same result. The trombone is unusual in that music for it can be written using either or both conventions. I'm quite happy with the above, as I'm quite happy with Wikipedia's statement that concert pitch is a defined standard. If someone wants to expand the bit about other standard pitches, they're welcome. Or we can simply point people at the Wikipedia entry for concert pitch, which would be my preferred option but doesn't seem to be in line with the rest of the documentation. 1.311 transposing instrument Instruments whose notated pitch is different from concert pitch. Brass instruments are identified in their name by their fundamental pitch - the note whose wavelength is equal to the length of the instrument. (Not to be confused with the fundamental, an octave below.) For example Concert A is 440Hz, the speed of sound in air is 343m/s, therefore an A trumpet (or any other A brass instrument) will have a length of 343/440 = 78cm. (Or be a power of 2 longer or shorter.) FIXME - Can someone add a similar definition for woodwind here or after the next paragraph, depending on where it fits best. This note is always written as middle C in the treble clef, and is usually referred to as being in 'X' where X is the fundamental of the instrument it's written for. It is normal, however, to leave the in X off of the music as being redundant because it's already been specified in the instrument's name. So music marked as A Trumpet or Bb Cornet will be assumed to be in A or Bf. Where an instrument's range falls naturally within the treble clef, the reference to the instrument should always either specify the fundamental as part of the instrument name, or specify the transposition, so the player knows what pitch the music is written in - alto flute in G, G flute, alto flute in C. If the music is written in C it is normal convention NOT to mention the fundamental pitch , and only say in C if it is needed to prevent confusion. - - Okay, I'm happy with this. Can someone put this into the glossary for me please? Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)
In message twig.1238873331.40...@suffolk.lib.ny.us, dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes On Sat, Apr 4, 2009, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk said: Okay, I think I can modify this to a definitive version now ... sorry for my tactless reply earlier, I should have checked the present text rather than assume you were quoting it. 1.64 concert pitch The pitch at which the piano and other non-transposing instruments play the concept of transposing instruments is irrelevant to this entry and should be left in its entirety to 1.311 So do we leave the reader with the impression that all instruments are written at concert pitch? Or do we point out that it only applies to certain instruments (even if we don't explicitly list them). I think the latter makes more sense. I think it is both sufficient and correct to state A convention for tuning the instruments of the orchestra. Except it's incorrect. It's the convention for tuning, in particular, the STRING instruments of the orchestra. It doesn't apply to the wind instruments. And it applies to a lot of non-orchestral instruments (personally, I don't consider the piano to be an instrument of the orchestra although other people may disagree with me). Officially, it is defined by whom? wiki? Actually, it's defined by the International Standards Organisation apparently. ISO 16. I suspect there is a cartel of instrument makers who have established the standard for what they will manufacture, but they have no say over how their products will be [ab]used. Each orchestra has an understanding with its players, their union(s), and guest performers. For some it is A=440, others 443,444,445... Some Early music ensembles perform at other reference pitches for a variety of reasons we needed elaborate on (A=395, 415, 435, 460..) but should mention. Which is why I said there were other conventions, that had mostly fallen into disuse. The implication being that there WERE some other conventions in current use. as A = 440, meaning that the note A in the treble clef indicates a sound that has a frequency of 440Hz. have we established a standard for pitch notation? A4 is what we are discussing here. No. ISO apparently have, though. There are other standard frequencies, but they have mostly fallen into disuse. HAH!! tell that to the academy of ancient music. Clients of our software are playing in some of those ensembles! Instruments with a single sounding part (woodwind, brass) follow a different convention just one? Yes, for brass at least, just one. The ONLY exception I'm aware of for brass instruments is actually my own instrument, the trombone, which *sometimes* follows the concert pitch convention instead. I might be talking out of turn for wind instruments, I'm hoping a woodwind player can expand there, but I'm sure woodwind notation follows fundamentally the same principles as brass notation. Or we can simply point people at the Wikipedia entry for concert pitch, wiki is a moving target of varying quality, this topic is not evolving so fast that we cant maintain, and we should be self-contained. 1.311 transposing instrument Instruments whose notated pitch is different from concert pitch. mmm, better might be to begin with the reason for the convention. -=-=-=-= Many of the instruments of the orchestra are available in different sizes, each with a differrent fundamental pitch; we speak of them collectivly as a family, and the fundamental pitch is nominative, eg, a Trumpet in Bb, a Horn in F, a C Clarinet. An experienced player with skill on one size of instrument can often play the others with similar skill, but is challenged to read for each of several instruments. One solution is the convention of transposed parts. One instrument of each family is taken as reference, all music for it is written at the sounding pitch. Music for other members of its family is written at a transposed pitch, so that when played as if it was the reference instrument, the notes produced will be as the composer intended, and the musician needs no change in reading skills. As an example, C Clarinets use music written at pitch. Music for a Bb Clarinet is written transposed up by a second so that the note read (and fingered) as 'C' will actually play as the 'Bb' the composer wanted. -=-=-= I had thought about that. I left it out because I thought a player would know it and a composer or publisher didn't need to know it. If I put it in I'd rather just add to what I've written a sentence like A deliberate side effect is that any given written note has the same fingering across all instruments in that family. been a while since I read a list of which instruments employ transposed parts, maybe just simply list em and leave it at that. Can you provide a list? brass and woodwind? Or clarinets, trumpets, oboes, sousaphones, ...? Or Bb, C and D trumpets, A and C clarinets, A, Bb, and Eb cornets
Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)
Ow! Sorry, reading this was painful (I play the trombone, as many of you know :-) 1.64 concert pitch The pitch at which the piano and other non-transposing instruments play, such music is said to be 'in C'. Officially, it is defined as A = 440, meaning that the note A in the treble clef indicates a sound that has a frequency of 440Hz. There are other standard frequencies, but they have mostly fallen into disuse. This convention is used for (almost?) all instruments with multiple sounding parts, eg tuned percussion and strings. Instruments with a single sounding part (woodwind, brass) follow a different convention and are generally known as transposing instruments, although for some instruments (eg flute, oboe), the two conventions lead to the same result. The trombone is unusual in that music for it can be written using either or both conventions. 1.311 transposing instrument Instruments whose notated pitch is different from concert pitch. Most of these instruments are identified in their name by their fundamental pitch - this being the note whose wavelength is equal to length of the instrument. For example Concert A is 440Hz, the speed of sound in air is 343m/s, therefore an A clarinet (or any other A wind instrument) will have a length of 343/440 = 78cm. (Or be a power of 2 longer or shorter.) This note is always written as middle C in the treble clef, and is usually referred to as being in 'X' where X is the fundamental of the instrument it's written for. It is normal, however, to leave the in X off of the music as being redundant because it's already been specified in the instrument's name. So music marked as A Clarinet or Bb Trumpet will be assumed to be in A or Bf. Where an instrument's range falls naturally within the treble clef, the reference to the instrument should always either specify the fundamental as part of the instrument name, or specify the transposition, so the player knows what pitch the music is written in - alto flute in G, G flute, alto flute in C. If the music is written in C it is normal convention NOT to mention the fundamental, and only say in C if it is needed to prevent confusion. - - If anybody can improve on those entries I'm all ears, otherwise can somebody update the glossary? For the most part, I've just been far more pedantic, but the existing bit about the trombone is, I'm sorry, just plain wrong! Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)
In message twig.1238783457.18...@suffolk.lib.ny.us, dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes On Fri, Apr 3, 2009, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk said: Sorry, reading this was painful agreed. 1.64 concert pitch Ensembles must agree on a temperament and a pitch standard if they are to be tuned agreeably. Equal temperament is usual for the full orchestra with winds, piano, and strings which plays repertoire in a full range of keys. The pitch of the A above middle C is the conventional reference point. A=440 Hz has been the practice for many orchestras over the past several decades, I know Wikipedia is not always a good reference source, but what it says jibes with what I thought I know. Apparently A=440 is not just practice, but is actually DEFINED as being Concert Pitch. If it's not A=440, it's not Concert Pitch. If you want to tune to Diapason Pitch or Baroque Pitch or Vienna Pitch or whatever, that's fine, just be clear about what you're doing. but in recent years some are creeping sharper, even to A=445; on the theory that it is good to have the violins sound brighter, tho it leaves the woodwind section rather challenged, as it is difficult (and expensive) to adjust some winds sharper. Other reference pitches have been used historically, and sometimes different places had variant practices. Many ensembles specializing in music from historical periods will employ other reference pitches, and may also employ non-equal temperaments. Again, Wikipedia was quite enlightening on this :-) 1.311 transposing instrument Some instruments play in a range which is awkward to transcribe useing the common G and F clefs, too many ledger lines is challanging to read. Octave-transposing clefs provide one solution to this problem. Some instruments are used in different sizes to accomodate play in particular ranges; the playing techniques are often close enough that skill on one carries over to the others, and so some members of the orchestra will play a variety of instruments which differ in size and fundamental pitch. The challenge of reading for each of several instruments is eased when the parts are written transposed. As an example, the Soprano C clarinet is the reference for the family. Music for it is written a sounding pitch. Music for the lower-pitched Bb clarinet is written transposed upward by a second, the player reads the same as for a 'C' instrument, it plays a second lower than the written pitch. This practice is a great convenience for the orchestral player, but does make for confusion to anyone ignorant of the practice, perhaps while reading the orchestral score. I think that's the WHOLE POINT of transposing instruments. In a brass band, ANY player can be given ANY instrument and (with the exception of the trombone) they will be able to read the music and play the instrument. And I believe exactly the same holds true for woodwind instruments too. (Obviously, if you give a Bb cornet player a double-Eb Bass, he'll have a lot of difficulty actually playing it, but he will know exactly what he's supposed to do with it.) I do feel, though, that adding all this will make the entry a lot more heavyweight than it need be. If you're going to write for brass or woodwind, you need to learn about the instruments and the music glossary isn't the place for that. The glossary shouldn't, however, contain material that is misleadingly vague ... Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)
In message f329bf540904031325o285b3f31vfbdf773f68d18...@mail.gmail.com, Han-Wen Nienhuys hanw...@gmail.com writes To add some confusion, some instruments are named by the tuning of their fundamental (B-flat trombone, B-flat french horn), but players commonly read from parts written in different transpositions, for example C (trombone) or F (French Horn) Hmmm ... Obviously, I know about Bb Trombone in C, which when stated in full is very clear (and is *never* written in treble clef). But this is conventionally shortened to Trombone (no mention of the fundamental or the transposition implies concert pitch). But I've never come across Bb French Horn in F! Bear in mind the French Horn is an orchestral instrument and I'm not an orchestral trombone player, but what I understood is *supposed* to happen is that the horn player whips out his Bb tuning slide (or crook) and swaps it for an F tuning slide. This actually physically changes the fundamental to an F so it now really is an F French Horn. That's not to say that some players don't bother and play the F part with the instrument still in Bb. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)
In message mj9t1jgcvk1jf...@thewolery.demon.co.uk, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk writes Ow! Sorry, reading this was painful (I play the trombone, as many of you know :-) Replying to myself ... Just in case anyone didn't realise (and I certainly didn't make myself clear :-) these are my revised versions that I think should replace the existing entries. Feel free to edit and improve. Cheers, Wol 1.64 concert pitch The pitch at which the piano and other non-transposing instruments play, such music is said to be 'in C'. Officially, it is defined as A = 440, meaning that the note A in the treble clef indicates a sound that has a frequency of 440Hz. There are other standard frequencies, but they have mostly fallen into disuse. This convention is used for (almost?) all instruments with multiple sounding parts, eg tuned percussion and strings. Instruments with a single sounding part (woodwind, brass) follow a different convention and are generally known as transposing instruments, although for some instruments (eg flute, oboe), the two conventions lead to the same result. The trombone is unusual in that music for it can be written using either or both conventions. 1.311 transposing instrument Instruments whose notated pitch is different from concert pitch. Most of these instruments are identified in their name by their fundamental pitch - this being the note whose wavelength is equal to length of the instrument. For example Concert A is 440Hz, the speed of sound in air is 343m/s, therefore an A clarinet (or any other A wind instrument) will have a length of 343/440 = 78cm. (Or be a power of 2 longer or shorter.) This note is always written as middle C in the treble clef, and is usually referred to as being in 'X' where X is the fundamental of the instrument it's written for. It is normal, however, to leave the in X off of the music as being redundant because it's already been specified in the instrument's name. So music marked as A Clarinet or Bb Trumpet will be assumed to be in A or Bf. Where an instrument's range falls naturally within the treble clef, the reference to the instrument should always either specify the fundamental as part of the instrument name, or specify the transposition, so the player knows what pitch the music is written in - alto flute in G, G flute, alto flute in C. If the music is written in C it is normal convention NOT to mention the fundamental, and only say in C if it is needed to prevent confusion. - - If anybody can improve on those entries I'm all ears, otherwise can somebody update the glossary? For the most part, I've just been far more pedantic, but the existing bit about the trombone is, I'm sorry, just plain wrong! Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)
In message 49d68906.5000...@ultrasw.com, Paul Scott psl...@ultrasw.com writes 1.311 transposing instrument Instruments whose notated pitch is different from concert pitch. Most of these instruments are identified in their name by their fundamental pitch - this being the note whose wavelength is equal to length of the instrument. For example Concert A is 440Hz, the speed of sound in air is 343m/s, therefore an A clarinet (or any other A wind instrument) will have a length of 343/440 = 78cm. (Or be a power of 2 longer or shorter.) We could probably get to the truth from here but this is not correct as stated. My A clarinet is not 78cm long. It is significantly shorter. I don't know if this is more accurate for a brass instrument. It could be. I guess you would be talking about a trombone in 1st position or a valved instrument with the valves not depressed. For an A clarinet a low C (sounding concert A 220Hz) you would be fingering a note which only used about 1/2 the length of the instrument. For a C above that (sounding A 440Hz.) you would be using most of the length of the instrument but this is the 2nd harmonic of a cylindrical bore which is probably not a reasonable place to apply your description. It would be nice to have a simple but accurate description of the fundamental of a woodwind instrument. I've obviously made a mistake in thinking it's similar to a brass instrument. My trombone is about 11ft mouthpiece-to-bell and the fundamental is Bb next to A=110, so that makes sense - 11ft ~ 4x78cm. Is there any chance you could give me that description? This note is always written as middle C in the treble clef, and is usually referred to as being in 'X' where X is the fundamental of the instrument it's written for. As mentioned above this not the fundamental for a woodwind even if it is for a brass instrument. The most common fingering for a woodwind is the six finger note which is D (in the upper register for clarinets or G for a bassoon). From there we get to a C by either adding one finger or by removing most of the fingers. Neither using either the tube with no fingers down or all fingers down is really equivalent to a brass instrument for the purposes of this discussion. From one point of view you would call a bassoon an F instrument, a normal clarinet (Bf) an Eb instrument (equivalent to an F recorder). I'd love to have the description completely accurate. I'll alter my bit to say for a brass instrument the fundamental is etc etc etc. Seeing as you understand woodwind, would you do the same for the woodwind side? Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Music Glossary - 1.64 Concert Pitch (2.12.2)
In message 7ca3d5a30904031519ya3b89hb87cf8f81a544...@mail.gmail.com, Neil Puttock n.putt...@gmail.com writes 2009/4/3 Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk: In message mj9t1jgcvk1jf...@thewolery.demon.co.uk, Anthony W. Youngman lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk writes Ow! Sorry, reading this was painful (I play the trombone, as many of you know :-) Replying to myself ... Just in case anyone didn't realise (and I certainly didn't make myself clear :-) these are my revised versions that I think should replace the existing entries. Feel free to edit and improve. For example Concert A is 440Hz, the speed of sound in air is 343m/s, therefore an A clarinet (or any other A wind instrument) will have a length of 343/440 = 78cm. (Or be a power of 2 longer or shorter.) Concert A is definitely not the fundamental for an A clarinet: it's a cylindrical tube stopped at one end, so the wavelength of the fundamental is four times the length. Since the lowest note on a clarinet is usually the E below middle C unless it has an extension, the fundamental would be C sharp (D on a B flat). Ummm ... I think I might be getting physics fundamentals confused with musical fundamentals. But I'm COMPLETELY puzzled at your statement that the wavelength of the fundamental is FOUR times the length. I would guess the trombone is also a cylindrical tube stopped at one end, and the wavelength of any note played must be an integral number of half-wavelengths. So we have 1/2-wavelength giving me a pedal Bb, 2/2 giving me the fundamental Bb, and 3/2 giving me an F. I don't see how the physics would work to give you a quarter-wavelength as you claim. Concert A would be either the first (B flat clarinet) or second (A clarinet) overblown note, i.e., third harmonic of E or F. Mmmm... I think that explains a lot. Most notes played by brass instruments are overblown in the wind sense - do most wind instruments mostly not overblow? Regards, Neil Cheers, Wol (NB - it's my bedtime, apologies if I don't reply again to anything for a while :-) -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: good news for my PhD
In message 20090318154151.ga4...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes I believe that source code is only un-copyrightable if it's done for a certain kinds of US government contract. (there's some law about government materials being public domain, although that obviously doesn't apply to everything that the government funds indirectly) Granted, this case is confusing. Being pedantic, but this most definitely is NOT true. Works created by/for the US government are subject to the Berne treaty, and are copyright. However, the US government is enjoined by US law from enforcing copyright. So you can use those works without fear of suit. That's very different from Public Domain, and the US government could conceivably sue in a foreign (to the US) court. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Shouldn't the ambitus engraver prefer his key signature?
In message 863aeipe74@lola.quinscape.zz, David Kastrup d...@gnu.org writes Hi, the ambitus engraver seemingly picks the first maximum/minimum in the note sequence and stays with it even when the same absolute pitch comes up later with a better match to the ambitus engraver's key signature. Here is a real world example where the ambitus engraver (which is working in C major) picks c flat rather than b as its lowest span. Ugly. Not that I use ambituses, but surely, where there multiple notes of the same pitch (I hate to say absolute pitch, because to take the above example c-flat and b-natural are NOT the same pitch except on the piano), it makes sense to take the lowest (or highest, as appropriate) note - b over c. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [frogs] Discourse on the Consumption of Dog Food
In message 20090207083104.ga2...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:00:04PM +, Anthony W. Youngman wrote: In message 20090204160623.ga2...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes being surrounded by nothing but ESL people now (and trying to teach them better English), I have newfound appreciation for what a completely stupid language English is. English isn't a silly language at all - it's what the Americans have done to it :-) Yeah? Let's consider a simple task: make a noun plural. - add an s. - if the word comes from Latin and ends with an a, add an e. - if the word ends in oot, add an s. Unless it also starts with a f, in which case you delete the oo and replace them with ee. (boots / feet) - totally maoed up cases like person - people... unless you actually *do* want to write persons, which is occasionally appropriate. - ... How can anybody explain the rules for pluralization in any way other than go away and spend 500 hours reading English books? (or maybe 5000 or 50,000...) Okay, let's compare English as opposed to other (European) languages. English has only ONE declension for nouns, and no gender to speak of. With typically only three cases to worry about - plural, genitive, and the rest. French doesn't have neuter, so any object without gender is assigned one randomly. German is even worse - despite having neuter, the only guarantee you have is if the object is male, then so is the gender. All other words are assigned semi-randomly - even the word for girl (they have two of them) are BOTH assigned the neuter gender! Then I think they both have several declensions, so you need to know which set of rules applies to which words. Latin - well I've forgotten most of it, but three genders, six cases singular and plural, and four declensions (which CAN depend on gender ...) I hope the romance (Spanish, Italian and Portuguese languages have simplified things a bit). English isn't bad ... Seriously, the problem is that (certainly in England), Grammar and Etymology seem almost to be forbidden subjects. I'm not complaining about native speakers -- I mean, I've never had a grammar or etymology lesson in my life, but I can read and write perfectly fluently by virtue of having read a lot. I'm complaining about the huge task faced by non-native speakers. Same here. But I'm interested in etymology, and I learnt grammar in Latin lessons. It makes SO much difference if you understand WHY this is weird. Very often it makes perfect sense when you look a bit deeper. I've been to Cambodia. All those houses on stilts look weird. Until you realise that, in the wet season, the water can easily be a foot or two deep. It's not so stupid then, but go in the dry season and you might ask yourself what a stupid design! I mean, in Japanese there's no pluralization of nouns. Given the writing that I see from the graduate students here, I gather that Chinese doesn't pluralize nouns either. Now how can I explain to them how to do something as simple as saying one foo and two foos ? There's nothing /approacing/ a firm rule for this. I just have tons and tons of special cases (subconsciously) memorized, so I instantly recognize that In the morning, I pulled my beet onto my foots is wrong. I'm not as sympathetic when they forget to add a the or an in front of a noun. English is consistent on that point. And here you show that you don't understand! If they have no concept of the or a in their language then they have TWO problems. Firstly, remembering to add it. Secondly, which one to add. When they talk about kitten, how do you know whether they mean one or a litter? There are a lot of subtle clues in there, and it's the same with the and a (I'm not even using the same example as you! Is it a or an!) I'm sympathetic with their difficulties about adding an s to verbs. Those rules aren't at all clear. We have ONE conjugation. I can't remember how many French, German or Latin have. And the basic rule is add an 's' in the third person singular. Okay, like with nouns, all languages have exceptions. Besides, why should we care whether a word came from French or German? All these kids want to do is write academic papers in academic conferences (which means English) without looking like total idiots. Which they curently cannot do. I feel really bad for them... I mean, I'd *hate* to be publishing my research in French, and that's my second-best language. If I had to do it, I wouldn't have stopped speaking/listening/reading/writing it ten years ago, of course... but it would still add overhead to the research process. I was surprised recently to discover how FEW rules it takes to pronounce English words. Compared to Japanese, which has a one rule per character for katakana and hiragana? (I admit that kanji is a bloody mess...) Really, if any HCI (err, that's Human-Computer Interface, a sub
Re: [frogs] Discourse on the Consumption of Dog Food
In message 498d801d.3020...@gmail.com, Jonathan Kulp jonlancek...@gmail.com writes Graham Percival wrote: IMNSHO, one of the first rules of an (alphabetized) written language should be that every single word should be pronouncable by a complete novice after 10 hours of study. Or maybe 5 or 20... but you get the idea. Cheers, - Graham 100% right. I have no idea how anyone learns English as a 2nd language. In both Spanish and German (and probably many other languages, but these are the ones I know best), once you learn the rules of pronunciation you can pronounce any word that's put in front of you (or butcher the pronunciation in a consistent way), and with a bit of experience deduce the spelling of just about anything said to you. Not at all possible with English. Actually, rule 1 is If it's a word that isn't a genuine English word, don't apply English rules. As I said, once you take that into account, you only need 30 or so rules to cover the most common 50 THOUSAND words. So don't expect to pronounce words like Einstein, kitsch etc. You will get away with words like char (for tea) that have been properly anglicised. I take Graham's point that KNOWING which words you're supposed to apply rule 1 to may be a challenge :-) That's the downside of English being such a promiscuous language... :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [frogs] Discourse on the Consumption of Dog Food
In message 20090207154751.ga2...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes Sure, and what about languages with a variety of accents, like English? Which one do you base the spelling on? The Queen's, of course. ;) You mean English, as spoken by a German, of Saxon descent imported to kick the Anglish off the throne, and spoken with a French accent? :-) But in a well-designed language, the accents would at least be consistent -- i.e. if you pronounced about as aboot (which, despite the best efforts of the cartoon South Park, I've never heard any Canadians say), you should also pronounce though as thoogh, honour as honoor, etc. The ridiculousness of these examples -- as well as any uncertainties about exactly what sounds I mean by those combinations of letters -- is further evidence of the difficulties of English. If you DESIGN a language, then maybe (although I've already alluded to the problems of Esperanto). English - well we can't even decide on what English IS. Talking about just the home country (the British Isles) I like to say The Saxons speak English, the Anglish speak Scots, and the Scots speak Gaelic. Now add Strine, that monstrosity the Americans like to call English (which is actually more original than modern English!), and all the other variants :-) Which one is the real English? Oh - and if you want pedigree it most certainly isn't the Queens English which, as a dialect, is only about 150 years old. To throw the cat amongst the pigeons, I think we should declare Modern Latin as the official language of the EU. After all, it is spoken by more people as a FIRST language than any other language group in the Union (and yes, I DID check on Wikipedia - Spain+Portugal+Italy outnumber all the other groupings). I can imagine the row as they try to define a standard spelling/grammar/pronounciation :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [frogs] Discourse on the Consumption of Dog Food
In message cd57eb59-933e-48e2-b0c4-385c4b36f...@math.su.se, Hans Aberg hab...@math.su.se writes On 6 Feb 2009, at 23:00, Anthony W. Youngman wrote: I was surprised recently to discover how FEW rules it takes to pronounce English words. Given that the average person has a 20,000 word vocabulary, it apparently only takes about 30 or 40 rules for a computer speech program to *correctly* pronounce the 50,000 most common English words. Might this be implemented into LilyPond, so it can sing the lyrics? :-) I thought all lyrics were in Italian :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: [frogs] Discourse on the Consumption of Dog Food
In message 20090204160623.ga2...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes As a cat person, I agree entirely. This is pretty much the only time in my life that I'll express agreement with the English language... being surrounded by nothing but ESL people now (and trying to teach them better English), I have newfound appreciation for what a completely stupid language English is. English isn't a silly language at all - it's what the Americans have done to it :-) Seriously, the problem is that (certainly in England), Grammar and Etymology seem almost to be forbidden subjects. Combined with the attitude of there's no such thing as right or wrong which seems to be prevalent among certain sections of the TEFL community (Teaching English as a Foreign Language), the result is an awful mess. I was surprised recently to discover how FEW rules it takes to pronounce English words. Given that the average person has a 20,000 word vocabulary, it apparently only takes about 30 or 40 rules for a computer speech program to *correctly* pronounce the 50,000 most common English words. The problem is all the words that have made their way into English, but are not properly anglicised. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: ideas for Google Summer of Code
In message 20090116123513.ga2...@nagi, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes It has to be noted that this sort of instrument physics application is actually useful even if one renders to normal scores rather than tabulature. It would also be nice to get fingering indications from a reasonably programmable strategy, so that one can have most of the fingerings of a fully spelled out finger exercise autogenerated, inserting only hints where things would otherwise go wrong. Err... you're suggesting that lilypond should attempt to fix orchestration mistakes by inexperienced composers? That's not a terrible idea -- IIRC Sibelius and Finale already have something like that built-in -- but it doesn't belong in the main lilypond code. I'd recommend writing a separate tool, using python or something like htat. My only worry with that is how easy it would be to get right ... How do you specify a range :-) I play the tenor Trombone (as I'm sure you know :-). The lowest note a standard Bb Trombone can play is e,, (actually, it's probably a bit higher than that...) and from there up to bf,, The next note that's playable is e, everything inbetween is missing. And what's the highest note? It's accepted as being bf' but I regularly see c'' and d''. And (changing octaves) that's true of any brass instrument. But then you add the optional trigger(s) or 4th valve, and the range of notes expands dramatically ... You have to take three ranges into account for what is nominally the same instrument - and each of those ranges is actually several different ranges - (1) the notes the instrument is capable of, (2) the nominal range a competent player can play, and (3) the actual range a good player can play. And (3) can give you some very unusual results... Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Learning manual addition (Section 5.1.2)
In message 496bcb51.3030...@ee.kth.se, Mats Bengtsson
mats.bengts...@ee.kth.se writes
I would soften the formulation a bit, for example replacing
When ... into a variable, wrap ... by
When ... into a variable, it is recommended to wrap ...
Fine, that's okay :-)
After all, this is just a recommended practice, it's not the
one and only way to do things. Especially, I'm not sure I
see the point of going via C if I for example want to transpose
a piece for B clarinet into A clarinet. Rather, it would give me
a doubled chance to mix the from and to arguments.
And what happens if you're transposing from Bf Trombone to Ef :-)
You're going to get into a wonderful mess if you forget which key your
original music is in ...
I know the trombone is an unusual instrument in that sense, playing in
both Bf and C, but that's why I said always convert to C.
To my mind, always convert via C means I don't get confused as to
which pitch a piece of music is in. (And as I said, it makes it easy to
print a score in concert). It's just a case of being consistent, and if
you re-use the music you don't have to ask yourself was the original in
(in your example) B or A?. You know your variable is in C.
/Mats
Cheers,
Wol
Trevor Daniels wrote:
Thanks Anthony - I'll add it as you suggest.
Trevor
- Original Message - From: Anthony W. Youngman
lilyp...@thewolery.demon.co.uk
To: lilypond-devel lilypond-devel@gnu.org
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 7:56 PM
Subject: Learning manual addition (Section 5.1.2)
Having had an (off-list) discussion with Chip about transposition,
I've written the following little snippet which would probably fit
well in 5.1.2 (manual 2.12.1), if the maintainer would care to add it.
start
* When entering a part for a transposing instrument into a variable,
wrap the notes in a \transpose c natural-pitch {} (where
natural-pitch is the open pitch of the instrument) so that the music
is stored in lily at concert pitch. You can transpose it back again on
output if required, but you might not want to (score in concert pitch,
converting trombone part from treble to bass clef etc) and it's a lot
easier if everything internal to lily is in a consistent pitch.
Also, only ever transpose to/from C. That means that the only other key
you will use is the natural pitch of the instrument - Bf for a Bf
trumpet, Af for an Af clarinet, etc.
end
I've noticed we seem to get people on the list every now and then
who it seems play a non-transposing instrument but are asked can you
this for so-and-so who plays (let's say) the trumpet, and because
they've never personally experienced a transposing instrument they
seem to have trouble knowing how to cope.
Cheers,
Wol
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Re: Directory name of aux is invalid
In message e06a8345a5fe41f1bffeaebf3039f...@trevorlaptop, Trevor Daniels t.dani...@treda.co.uk writes Aargh. This commit also implies creation of scripts/aux/. I don't enjoy so much saying this, but the limitation we hit is worthwhile: Windows sucks, I wish there were only Unix OSes. :-) I can't really apologise for Windows, and I wasn't aware of this limitation until I hit this problem and investigated, but I'm sorry this has caused you extra work. It's a dos limitation that has carried into Windows. And it bites professionals. I recently had to teach my fellow (experienced!) programmers that certain file names weren't permitted... (I think a user typed CON into our program as data - only snag is the program used that data as a file name and promptly fell over ...) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: contributor/user split in docs
In message 1231028567.28463.82.ca...@freemousse, John Mandereau john.mander...@gmail.com writes I keep all my svn/git checkouts on /sd, of course. I suppose there's plenty of disk space to compile stuff on it, but... 630 Mhz. This is the frequency in idle state, it should increase to 900 MHz every time the CPU becomes busy. It may take 3 hours to build all of LilyPond and documentation on your computer from a clean tree, which is reasonable if you do it once a week and rely on unclean builds the rest of the time; it would between 1 and 2 days to build all GUB, which less reasonable. You don't say how much ram you've got. Can you upgrade it? And I don't like pushing the hardware on this thing, since I'm in serious trouble if anything happens to it. I've pushed my Celeron M with 504 MB RAM (8 MB for shared video mem) for 3 years with various big CPU-consuming tasks (compiling Gnome, Gentoo, Linux kernel as Fedora RPM, LilyPond and the doc, and (unsuccesfully) GUB), the fan has always been noisy and it was often hot enough to heat my room. I had to replace the DVD drive recently, but besides this that box still works well, especially with Fedora 10. My Athlon runs at 1050MHz, and I have 768Mb RAM. I've just worked out (with Gentoo) how to use tmpfs for /var/tmp/portage, and builds fly ... I recently rebuilt kde-base, firefox and x-org-base and it did it pretty fast. I don't know how easily you could modify your system to use temporary space for the build, but if you've got spare ram capacity and can use a tmpfs, it makes things a LOT faster - basically doing all the work in RAM and dodging disk latencies almost entirely (just be warned, the default tmpfs size is half of ram - I allocated 10Gb to my swap partition then wondered why my tmpfs partition crashed out at 100% full :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: feature req: volta bar numbering options
In message 450977.38398...@web83407.mail.sp1.yahoo.com, Mark Polesky markpole...@yahoo.com writes Anthony, Responding late, I know, but with about ONE exception, all the music I see follows lily's current behaviour. Which scores/publishers have you found that match the current behavior? I'm a band musician (brass, concert, big), and play the trombone. Pretty much EVERY part I've ever played just counts bars from the beginning of the piece. Normal behaviour is, as I say, to ignore the existence of the voltae when counting bars. Unusual behaviour is to give a bar a double number, eg the first bar of a 16-bar repeat might be numbered 40/56, but I think that's normally explained by the fact that some parts have voltae and some are written out in full. I can only remember ONE occasion where there was a volta and the bars of the voltae shared bar numbers. And I can't remember what piece that was. I recently acquired several notation manuals, and Gardner Read doesn't mention numbering measures. However, Kurt Stone (Music Notation in the 20th cent.) has this to say: There is little agreement about numbering the measures of first and second endings in repeats. The most practical (although rather illogical) method is to ignore the fact that first and second endings are involved and simply count all measures, regardless of repeat signs, etc. (p.168) This is LilyPond's default behavior. And I'm afraid I agree, with Lily, that practical is best. If, as conductor (which I'm not), I want to refer to a bar, then I want that number to be unique, not duplicated across voltae. And, for practical purposes, what other use do bar numbers have? None, to my mind ... Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: feature req: volta bar numbering options
In message 181.86328...@web83401.mail.sp1.yahoo.com, Mark Polesky markpole...@yahoo.com writes Developers, I'd like to be able to set how volta alternative measures are numbered. Currently (as of 2.11.65), measures are counted as if there were no repeat signs, but I can't find a single example of this if the engraved world. Moreover, every example of numbered-measure scores I found counted the bars such that each alternative within a group starts with the same measure number. I don't have Gardner Read with me at the moment, but I assume this is the common practice. Responding late, I know, but with about ONE exception, all the music I see follows lily's current behaviour. So while I'm quite happy with what lily does now, I do agree making it a configurable option could be useful :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: GOP: new website
In message 20081226175709.ga13...@tsubasa.local, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes - write the new essay in HTML, and tell people to print out the HTML if they want a paper version? imho this is likely to be a disaster. The number of times I try to print html and get garbage ... either it prints the part of the page I don't want, or it prints 16 wide on A4, or or or - you get the picture. Okay, I know that's caused by web authors being clever and trying to over-ride the user's display preferences, but it happens far too often and I'm NOT a fan of html as a result. Nope. If you want users to be able to print the essay, provide it in a form optimised for printing. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texinfo.tex and translated docs snippets status
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John Mandereau [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes [1] Our current texinfo.tex don't replace quotes with curly quotes. In current official texinfo.tex, it's possible to do the same if we add Bit late, I know, but do we WANT to replace quotes with curly quotes? It's quite easy to cut-n-paste from pdf into a lily file, and then lily will choke on the pasted code ... (and some of us don't work on line, and some of this html manuals are the work of the devil ... :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: whiteout on stems?
In message
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Han-Wen
Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
no, it's correct. Staff lines are in layer -1 (I think), while the
rest is in layer 0.
So, using a whiteout in a layer 0 object only guarantees to cover stafflines.
In which case, I'd write since staff lines are in a *lower* layer
(different could mean they're in layer 1, which means it's guaranteed
NOT to work :-)
Cheers,
Wol
2007/4/19, Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Is there a bug in input/regression/whiteout.ly ?
In 2.11.22, I see ledger lines whited out, but the note stem is still
there. The texidoc says
\header{
texidoc = The whiteout command underlays a white box under a
markup. The whitening effect only is only guaranteed for staff lines,
since staff lines are in a different layer.
}
Should the second sentence be ... is only guarenteed for staff lines,
since **stem lines** are in a different layer. ?
Cheers,
- Graham
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Re: deleting invisible files in git
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Evidently git is intelligent enough to realize that the Capitalized files are duplicates of the lower-case (does it handle symlinks?), but now I can't get rid of them. No - afaik git does NOT handle symlinks. If I've got it right, duplicate files are impossible in git. Don't forget - Linus thinks in linux mode and is used to writing file systems... When you commit a file to git, it calculates the MD5 hash and uses that as a sort of inode. So, just as an ls in linux (can) displays the inode which is a pointer to where the file is actually stored, so listing files in git has the MD5 hash which points to where the file is stored ... You're very unlikely to encounter a MD5 collision failure in git, but Linus made the design decision that if two different files had the same MD5, git would simply fall over with an error, and leave the resulting mess to the user to sort out. He made the (imho) very practical decision that the likelihood of a collision was far less than the likelihood of a screw-up in collision-handling code, hence this possible failure. So once you've succeeded in dumping these duff entries, all you've actually done is remove their line in the git directory :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: page-turning using correct page numbers
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Joe Neeman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes There was a request a while back about making the places for page turns more flexible. With the solution I have in mind for this, you would be able to say that it should turn only after even pages and the first page should be page 1 (this would give what you want, yes?). I have other things I want to do first, but I should manage it before 2.12. Yup, perfect :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: bar counters
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mats Bengtsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes As you know, it's already possible to get bar numbers on every single measure (or every 5th or whatever) but they will be printed on top of the bar lines. The only new feature I can see in Werner's request is the possibility to typeset bar numbers centered over each measure. The obvious syntax for such an option would be a normal property setting, right? I don't mean to be rude, but are you understanding what we're understanding? We're not discussing bar *numbers*, we're discussing bar *counters* - something completely different. I may be a hundred bars into a piece, with \mark default set to display bar numbers (so I can't bugger about with that), but I want to display '4, 5, 6, 7, 8' over a set of (identical) bars at that point (with three more identical bars just before I start numbering ...). PS. I said I haven't read the latest manual - I think a numbering facility may have been added to \repeat unfold which would do exactly what the OP wanted starting counting at 1 - I just want to be able to tell it to start numbering half-way through the unfold, or eg half way through a passage of multi-bar rest plus cues. /Mats Werner LEMBERG wrote: \tag #'tuba \barCounterOn c r g\ r | c r g r | c r g r | c\f r g r | \tag #'tuba \barCounterOff Please also add a feature to make the number visible/invisible. A lot of the music I see starts counting on the first bar, but only starts displaying the counter about, say, bar 4. A simple extension to my suggested syntax would be this: \tag #'tuba \barCounterOn #4 c r g\ r | c r g r | c r g r | c\f r g r | \tag #'tuba \barCounterOff Alternatively, you could add an option whereby you tell \barCounterOn what number to start counting at. Yep. This seems to be an easier solution since it moves the logic from lilypond to the user. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: bar counters
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Werner LEMBERG [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In orchestral parts it is quite common to have bar counters like this: Very late response, I know :-) 1 2 3 4 c r g r | c r g r | c r g r | c r g r | cresc. - - - - - f Currently, lilypond provides automatic bar counting for repeats only. It would be great if we can have this feature for normal music also, something like this: \tag #'tuba \barCounterOn c r g\ r | c r g r | c r g r | c\f r g r | \tag #'tuba \barCounterOff The current workaround, namely to use overlayed invisible percent repeaters, is not very elegant... Any chance that this gets implemented quickly? Otherwise I'll add it to the Google item list as a feature request. Please also add a feature to make the number visible/invisible. A lot of the music I see starts counting on the first bar, but only starts displaying the counter about, say, bar 4. A typical occurrence for me is, say, 8 bars rest where the cue is written out. It'll start counting about bar 5. Alternatively, you could add an option whereby you tell \barCounterOn what number to start counting at. Werner Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Documentation - Section 9 Changing Defaults
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 14:10:07 +0100 Anthony Youngman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The 2.9 manual I'm looking at (it might have changed in the latest version) is still pointing at the 2.8 Program Reference. The 2.9 manual on the web points at the 2.9 program reference. I assume you're talking about the link from this page: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.9/Documentation/ Yup - It's the pdf, which I'd downloaded from that page. I did notice you'd just said there was a documentation update and I was using the version before that (which was why I said it might have changed). It's great that you're sending feedback about the docs, but please check the most recent version before sending problem reports! - Graham I'll download the update, and start going through that soon :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Documentation - 8.2.4 Bar numbers
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 13:06:17 +0100 Anthony Youngman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This section should contain a reference to bar-number-every-five-reset.ly. After the Barnumbers can be typeset at regular intervals ... text and fragment, could we also add Err, it already does! Look at the see also section. As I noticed after I'd posted - oops - BUT !!! imnsho it should be there as an example, not a see also. Indeed, if there's only one example it should be this one not the other one. rant mode=on As a professional programmer, I see it as my job to make life easy for my users. All too often, however, I come across workmanship which makes it clear the workman was out to make life easy for himself! The modern practise of printing bar-numbers every fourth or fifth bar falls clearly into this category! Ask yourself - *as* *a* *musician* - is that any use to you, or would you be better off if it was done a bit differently? As a conductor, nine times out of ten you want to refer to the start of a phrase (the remaining tenth time being when you're pointing out a problem to just one musician (or section)). So as a musician, 99 times in 100, you're looking for the start of a phrase. Now if every fourth bar is marked, what are the chances of it being the start of a phrase? Pretty near nil, I'd say. If it's every fifth, the chances rise to about 25%. So. Almost every time, the poor conductor has to find the bar he's looking for, count forwards or backwards to a numbered bar and tell the musicians. Who then have to find a numbered bar and count forwards or backwards to the bar they want. WHAT A WASTE OF EFFORT - all to save the computer typesetter a few minutes! \rant Han-Wen's preface says he believes in beautiful music. imho, bar numbers every fourth or fifth bar is very ugly. I asked about numbering the start of every phrase back in the 2.4 days, and got the impression I'd have to work it out for myself (maybe that's why bar-number-every-five-reset.ly was written). imnsvho, we should be saying to people this is how it *should* be done, and we can do it!. Please make bar-number-every-five-reset.ly a showcased example, and if it means relegating the current showcased example to a see also, then so be it. I know there's a conflict between a simple example and a good example, but when the simple example sets a bad example (which imho this does), then I'd rather have a good example. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Feature request (?): Horizontal spacing
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Erik Sandberg wrote: This is of course achievable by adding \breaks manually, but my suggestion is to add a property for a threshold value that somehow controls an upper bound of how tightly spaced a staff can be. This could e.g. be the minimum horizontal distance between notes, but I guess there could exist more logical variables as well. I cant recall anyone saying anything about this feature, and I cant find it in the manual, so I suppose it doesnt exist. If it does, perhaps it should be mentioned in the docs, under global layout? I suppose a skilled human engraver would have a mental hierarchy of which parameters to change first (from among staff spacing, note spacing, staff sizes, etc), in order to make it fit. The most lovely thing would be if Lilypond was able to mimic that way of thinking, (i.e. the first thought is I want to make it fit on X pages, and everything follows from there), rather than trial and error by the user. Another item in the mental hierarchy ... I don't think lily does this, but if someone does visit this and try to do it, then when you're printing a part you want to try and put a page break by a multi-rest bar. I've not actually met that many but it's really infuriating when you have say four bars rest, two bars to play and then a tricky page turn (or a turn, a couple of bars and a long rest). Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: easier LilyPond tutorial?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes [please forward to appropriate editor development lists] Hi there! I have a question for the lily4jEdit developers. Yesterday Jan I discussed how we could lower the barrier to start using LilyPond. One the things we discussed was a better way to start using LilyPond. Right now, this involves a newbie user * having to read the tutorial * learning the concept of text-editor, and learning to use it. * learning the concept of command-line, and learning to use it. * learning about debug-edit-compile For a typical mac/windows user this is a rough introduction. We were wondering whether it was possible to provide something similar to the Emacs tutorial, where a user is really taken by the hand learning LilyPond. Am I unusual? I must admit I found the tutorial to be not much help, and I have no trouble with a text-editor or the command line, but I would find your approach of very little help. As for the emacs tutorial, I've *never* got to grips with emacs, and one of the reasons is that I find the entire emacs help system horribly frustrating to use. That presumably includes the tutorial (I guess I found it, and just couldn't get on with it). I've discussed my ideas with Graham (and he thinks I'll be like everyone else and not get round to doing it ...) but I'm trying to write a tutorial that would suit me. The big problem I kept falling over when I was getting started was that there was nothing about how to use lily. Loads of info (such as the manual) about this is how you do this and that, but it was far too low-level. Loads of information about how you use all the little bits, and nothing about how you put it all together to actually do something useful... I've got hold of a piece that's copyright 1927 by Schubert, so I'm pretty confident it's out of copyright :-) What I intend to do is to include this as an appendix, but the tutorial will basically say here's a working LP piece, this is how and why we've done it this way. As far as I'm concerned, using the text editor is like using a word processor - it's a basic that we should be able to assume the user can do! Command line, less so, but it shouldn't be that difficult to give basic instructions. Again, to me, that's basic computer literacy, but yes I understand it being beyond doze people. At the end of the day, the best way to learn is to have a guru handy nearby. Absent that, I personally find that worked examples are best. And one thing that lily lacks is a decent supply of full-blown examples (as opposed to fragments, which are there a-plenty). Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: lilypond-devel Digest, Vol 26, Issue 21
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bryan Stanbridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What we see is that this engraving standard has become bastardized by both bands and orchestras increasingly since the 60s. If you look at the old band scores of Holst, for instance, especially those by BH, you'll notice they're also missing the I. The Hammersmith comes to mind immediately as one that skips from H to J (though I can't remember if that's a Boosey score or another publisher). Modern orchestras are using I more and more, but from a performer standpoint I'd much prefer none of the media have adopted I. Does it make sense alphabetically? Yes. But in the middle of a rehearsal that's being run very swiftly it's very easy to confuse I and J if it's not typeset well. I take your point ... Now, having said all that I think it's a good idea to have as much flexibility as we can have if it doesn't create too much confusion in implementation. This seems straight-forward enough and as long as I don't have to use it -- fine by me. :) But if I'm using lilypond to either replace a lost part, or typeset a crap written/photocopied-$DEITY-knows-how-often copy, I have to use the same conventions as the original ... :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Documentation (was: Help! \mark, and lesson in Scheme)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Erlend Aasland [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Hello Anthony On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:36 +, Anthony W. Youngman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... (And I want to create a format-mark-barnumber markFormatter too.) I agree with this. Many big band / wind band pieces I've seen use this. Can we please throw in this patch providing the functions format-mark-barnumber and format-mark-box-barnumber? Thanks for the patch - that's saved me some work. It's now in my version... We'll need to update the docu, as well. Section 5.15.3. Firstly, can we please change (The letter 'I' is skipped in accordance with engraving traditions.) to say orchestral, not engraving. Unless anybody else has a better idea. But engraving makes it sound like a global thing, and seeing as I can't find an example of it in my sort of music it can't be that global. Better yet, just replace the sentence completely with the following para: The default formatter is format-mark-letters, which skips the letter I in accordance with orchestral engraving tradition. format-mark-alphabet uses all the letters in accordance with band engraving tradition. Note that this will require somebody to take my code, check it, and create a proper patch to add it :-) or help me to do it, which I'm quite happy to do but need help with! By the way, a bit further down the docu claims that the default is format-mark-numbers. This does not appear to be true, both from the example at the start, and from my experience. This para should presumably be modified (once all these functions are added) to read: The file 'scm/translation-functions.scm' contains the definitions of format-mark-letters (the default), format-mark-alphabet, format-mark-number and format-mark-barnumber, along with their -box- equivalents (format-mark-box-letters etc). These can be used as inspiration for other formatting functions. Not that anyone is suggesting that these functions won't be added, but I think we do need them in the standard install. Without them, you can't cater for some fifty percent of band music, which will lose you all the military bands. Certainly in the UK, bandsmen play two instruments (from different families - which often includes strings), and that could easily lose you a load of orchestras, too. Regards, Erlend Aasland Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Another convert-ly bug
Okay, it's probably me being incompetent - look, I am learning, right :-) But all of my 2.2 files contain the text \include a4-init.ly. This file no longer exists in 2.4, so convert-ly should remove it. Yep, I know. I guess I shouldn't have used it because it wasn't needed, but never mind. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Help! \mark, and lesson in Scheme
I'm trying to fix \mark, so it works for me. Unfortunately, not knowing my way round Scheme, I've fixed it but in a way that might crash, and which will be wiped out by an upgrade. Basically, I've increased the vector size (I guess that's what I'd call an array?). It seems to be necessary, but I don't understand why. Do vectors start at 0? I've also tried to increase the check on i, but I've realised that's probably a mistake! But *might* that cause a crash when we get to Z? And I've commented out the line that increments i if it's the equivalent of I or bigger. The result is I'm now getting the letter I as a rehearsal mark. == (original from 2.4.2 define-markup-commands ll 629- ;(define number-mark-letter-vector (make-vector 25 #\A)) (define number-mark-letter-vector (make-vector 26 #\A)) (do ((i 0 (1+ i)) (j 0 (1+ j))) ; swapping these two gets it to work ... ((= i 26)) ;((= i 27)) ; (if (= i (- (char-integer #\I) (char-integer #\A))) ; (set! i (1+ i))) (vector-set! number-mark-letter-vector j (integer-char (+ i (char-integer #\A) == All I now need do is make it permanent. I want to create a format-mark-alphabet markFormatter. It seems so obvious - look in translation-functions.scm, and go from there. Except it seems I need to modify a copy of make-markletter-markup, and I can't find it to modify! (And I want to create a format-mark-barnumber markFormatter too.) Both these formatters are needed for Band (both Brass and Wind) music. Since I noticed (and moaned about) format-mark-letter omitting the letter I a few months ago, I've been looking for examples. And I have yet to find ONE. Of the thirty or so pieces I've played since then, if they had an H, it was followed either by an I or the end of the piece. And while I haven't looked especially, I think the use of bar numbers outnumbers the use of numbers as a rehearsal mark. So that's why the other one's necessary. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: a better convert-ly
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes As for the more difficult things ; they are -as said- more difficult. IMO, the proper attitude is to be glad that more difficult hacks are possible, and accept that automatic language conversion can not always deal with them. A good tool to look at would be Antlr. If someone wants to maintain a convert-ly (not one of the main lilypond developers) it's well worth investigating. Just bear in mind it's about to go a major rev to v3. I'm learning it for another project, and it's got some pretty neat abilities, such as remembering all your whitespacing :-) It would, actually, probably be one of the best tools to use, and it's Open Source (written in Java :-( Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: battle-plan for 2.5 development
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bertalan Fodor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes We will create a beginner's guide to lilypond that shows the basics of lilypond with lily4jedit. Anyway to sum my opinion: Windows users shouldn't be directed to use your favorite text editor, because they don't have one. Windows users should use jEdit. The appropriate syntax highlighting is default in jEdit. Actually, from choice I use PFE (Programmer's File Editor) :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: battle-plan for 2.5 development
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Graham Percival [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On 5-Nov-04, at 4:49 AM, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote: WEBSITE The current website is a lot better than we had; I'm glad it has some interesting articles, and that it refreshes a lot (basically, for every Lilypond release), but it could be much more the center of a community. For this reason, I think that lilypond.org should become a database driven website, where users can log-in, post comments, contribute articles and give the development team instant feedback on releases, documentation, etc. What's wrong with the mailing lists? They provide instant feedback on releases, documentation, comments, etc. If somebody wants to commit and article but doesn't want to code the HTML himself (and doesn't want to use an editor - HTML creator like OpenOffice), then I'll volunteer to edit their plaintext article into HTML. While it's nice to have BOTH email AND a good website, taking an either/or approach will disenfranchise a lot of users. For example, a mailing list I'm on recently rehosted. Because my mail server is behind a NAT firewall, the mail-list server refuses to talk to it and I can no longer post. The result is, I've just dropped off the radar because although there is also a website, I almost never go there. (Not many other people do, either, I don't think.) A working email list is a damn sight better than a web forum, imnsho. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: 2.4.0 on cygwin - Bad fd number
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Han-Wen Nienhuys [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Error invoking `latex \\nonstopmode \\input simple.tex 21 1 /dev/null '. Return value 512Error invoking `dvips -t a4 -u+ec-mftrace.map -u+lilypond.map -Ppdf simple 21 1 /dev/null '. Return value 512 Ah wait, the shell is struggling with the redirection syntax. are there any unix gurus that know the correct syntax for redirecting all output to /dev/null? Others have given you the correct syntax - /dev/null 21. Apart from your extra , what you've done is redirect stderr to stdout, then redirect stdout to /dev/null. And it hasn't worked because stderr and stdout (even though they may be pointing at the same place) are *always* different pointers. iirc stdin is fp1, stdout is fp2, and stderr is fp3. So what you did is copy the contents of fp2 (the terminal) to fp3, *then* replaced fp2 with a pointer to /dev/null. Oops. The order in which you do things is important (and yes, the reason I know this is because it's bitten me, too :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Transposed Chord name F flat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Johannes Schindelin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes In the Western world, we usually hear equally tempered instruments. That is not totally true, though: trumpets, for example, suffer an especially strange situation: some notes are played just by altering the embouchure, so the interval is constrained by physical laws and the frequency can only be an integer number multiplied by the base frequency. For other notes, the length of the vibrating air is changed, and this is used to adapt it to a more equal temperament. It's a bit more complicated than that ... :-) and I'd disagree that we usually hear equally tempered instruments. Your strange situation for the trumpet is in fact the norm for any wind instrument (ie most instrument families...) But yes, fundamentally, the fundamental note of a brass instrument has a wavelength twice the length of the instrument. For example, I play the trombone (approx 11ft long) so my fundamental is bf,, with a 22ft wavelength. All open notes nominally have an integral number of half-wavelengths within that 11 foot. Valves or the slide alter this length, thereby altering the note. But by just using the lips an experienced player can bend the pitch - I've heard of good players bending it by well over a full tone! Given that pretty much any wind or string instrument can bend notes, I would guess that actually, any bending is used to bend *away* from equal temperament and *towards* intonation. Actually, we *don't* hear a lot of this stuff that we should, because modern orchestras have an annoying habit of playing stuff on the wrong instrument. For example, at least one piece was scored by the composer - ?Chopin? - for two cornets and two trumpets. The intent was to *contrast* the two different sounds. So what do modern orchestras do? Play the piece with four trumpets! Or take my instrument - a trombone trio is *supposed* to be one Eb, one Bb(/F) and one G trombone. Yet such music is now invariably played on with three Bb trombones (at least one of which is a Bb/F). And the sound is completely different! The best way to hear this is listen to some Haydn. He wrote a lot for D trumpets, and that is still usually played on the instrument it was written for. Compare it with the same piece played on a Bb. (But I think this is drifting OT for devel - it should probably shift to user ... :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: Transposed Chord name F flat
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthias Neeracher [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes On Oct 28, 2004, at 12:27 AM, David Bobroff wrote: I'm not a developer, but this looks right to me. In your example you have a chord which is a diminished step above the tonic of the key. When you transpose this down one whole step it remains the same relative to the key. Thanks for explaining this logic. My music theory is not overly sound, so I'm perfectly willing to accept that there is a sound theoretical justification for this. Nevertheless, I'd still argue that on a practical level, E might be preferable here. Bear in mind, E and F-flat aren't actually the same note. Not only are they different points on the key scale, but in a properly tuned scale they aren't even the same frequency! Very close, but not the same. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: changing page numbers
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Pedro Kroger [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Mats Bengtsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Will this patch also make it possible to reset the page numbering between scores if you have have several \score in the same .ly file? I don't think so :-( Butting in well late on this thread I know, so ignore me if you want :-) But having hit this problem repeatedly with word-processors and trying to print certain pages (like restarting page numbers at 1 ten pages in and trying to print the second page 1 ...) I think you need to have the concept of physical page number (counting from the first page as 1) and logical page number, which can be whatever you want but is what gets printed on the page. Okay, I think what's been done seems acceptable to everybody, but if this thing gets revisited as well it might, I think this approach is probably the most flexible and effective. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - wol at thewolery dot demon dot co dot uk HEX wondered how much he should tell the Wizards. He felt it would not be a good idea to burden them with too much input. Hex always thought of his reports as Lies-to-People. The Science of Discworld : (c) Terry Pratchett 1999 ___ lilypond-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
