Re: Policy for posts from non-members
On 2023-02-22 16:39, Kenneth Wolcott wrote: Hi Jean; I've been following this thread for some while. I really applaud your intentions and efforts with regards to this mailing list management; your dedication is impressive and appreciated. Hear, hear! Colin
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Hi Jean; I've been following this thread for some while. I really applaud your intentions and efforts with regards to this mailing list management; your dedication is impressive and appreciated. Ken Wolcott On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 2:25 PM Jean Abou Samra wrote: > > Le mardi 21 février 2023 à 23:36 +0100, Jean Abou Samra a écrit : > > Hi, > I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary of > telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they should > subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually approved. I > wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the other admin) > would think about changing the list configuration to reject post from > non-members instead of holding them on moderation, with a message such as > “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to > prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please > fill out the subscription form on > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user. > Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you can > help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact with > this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your membership > preferences after you have subscribed. > If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means that > you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one you are > subscribed with. > If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the list > admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org” > On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until Mark > or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly. > > An update on this: > > It turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately, Bob Proulx, an admin on > GNU's Mailman server, noticed the change and explained why. > > The problem is backscatter. If a spammer sends a spam while making it look > like it comes from a real address that is not subscribed to the list, the > person this real address belongs to receives an automated message from the > list, which is viewed as unsolicited. Not only is that bad for this person, > but it leads to DNS blacklisting for lists.gnu.org, which affects all GNU > lists badly. > > I apologize for this; I didn't realize this implication at all. The change > has been rolled back and things will just remain as they were before. Thank > you Bob! > > Jean
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Le mardi 21 février 2023 à 23:36 +0100, Jean Abou Samra a écrit : > Hi, > I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary of > telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they should > subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually approved. I > wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the other admin) > would think about changing the list configuration to reject post from > non-members instead of holding them on moderation, with a message such as > “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to > prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please > fill out the subscription form on > [https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user](https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user). > > Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you can > help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact with > this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your membership > preferences after you have subscribed. > If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means that > you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one you are > subscribed with. > If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the list > admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org” > On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until Mark > or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly. An update on this: It turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately, Bob Proulx, an admin on GNU's Mailman server, noticed the change and explained why. The problem is [backscatter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_(email)). If a spammer sends a spam while making it look like it comes from a real address that is not subscribed to the list, the person this real address belongs to receives an automated message from the list, which is viewed as unsolicited. Not only is that bad for this person, but it leads to DNS blacklisting for lists.gnu.org, which affects all GNU lists badly. I apologize for this; I didn't realize this implication at all. The change has been rolled back and things will just remain as they were before. Thank you Bob! Jean signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: swing eighths in
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 11:27 -0800, Donald J. Stewart a écrit : > I'd like to apologize for antagonizing the group here...I receive all > messages > from the lilypond-usr group but I'm somehow not a subscriber. Oh, I'm sorry! My bad. You *are* a subscriber, but it was your first post, and that's the reason it got moderated. Anyway, the list configuration was changed today so that this won't be the case anymore. Re "antagonizing": I hope you did not interpret my message as hostile. It was not my intent. > I intended to send my original question to the Denemo-devel group... Makes sense. Best, Jean signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: swing eighths in
I'd like to apologize for antagonizing the group here...I receive all messages from the lilypond-usr group but I'm somehow not a subscriber. I intended to send my original question to the Denemo-devel group... On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 10:20:10 AM PST Jean Abou Samra wrote: > Le mardi 21 février 2023 à 10:10 -0800, Donald J. Stewart a écrit : > > I'd like to set something similar to 'eighth note = triplet' (attached > > tempo marking) > > > > I see 'Beat Change' under Directives -> Markings -> Tempi and Metronome > > marks > > > > But for some reason I get an 'unable to typeset' warning when I attempt to > > use this. > > > > I'm sure there's a simple solution that I'm just overlooking... > > Hello, > > So you know, your message was manually approved because you are not a list > subscriber. Please fix this by subscribing on > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user (you may choose not to > receive list messages). Thanks. > > I'm not sure what editor you are using. An editor will merely help you to > insert common commands, but no editor knows about every possible LilyPond > command. > > If you search for “swing” in LilyPond's [documentation > index](https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.24/Documentation/notation/lilypond-index > .html), you will land on the description of the `\rhythm` command, with an > example that looks pretty much like your picture. > > Regards, > > Jean
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
On 22/02/2023 06:05, Werner LEMBERG wrote: And joining is actually pretty serious friction for some people - the more lists I join, the more likely I am to abandon attempts to help if I'm required to register. I second that concern. Being the maintainer of the FreeType mailing lists, I face exactly the same problem. Usually, I simply enable messages in the queue. If I have to do this too often, I tell people to subscribe. It seems, however, that the amount of new users is much larger for LilyPond than for FreeType... Is there an option where you can "temporarily" approve someone? So basically the list remembers you approved a post, and for maybe the next 15 days it remembers and approves without moderator intervention. Once that time has gone, it's back to moderation. Yes it's a bit of a pain, but it lowers friction for the drive-by "please help", and it lessens the work a bit for the moderators... Cheers, Wol
Re: Note head on barline
Hello Immanuel,
The problem here is that the Dots are not placed in the NoteColumn, but in a
DotsColumn,
so they are not affected by changing the parent of the NoteColumn.
This should solve this (by taking affected Dots and placing them into a new
DotsColumn:
#(define (Heads_on_bar_lines_engraver context)
(let ((busy #f))
(make-engraver
((process-music engraver)
(let ((current (ly:context-current-moment context)))
(set! busy (filter-map
(match-lambda
((end . grob)
(and (not (equal? end current))
grob)))
(ly:context-property context 'busyGrobs '())
((stop-translation-timestep engraver)
(let ((bar (ly:context-property context 'currentBarLine #f)))
(when (and bar (pair? busy))
(let* ((col (ly:grob-parent (car busy) X))
(dots (map (lambda (grob) (ly:grob-object grob 'dot)) busy))
(dots (filter ly:grob? dots))
(group (ly:grob-parent bar X)))
(if (not (null? dots))
(let ((dcol (ly:engraver-make-grob engraver 'DotColumn '(
(ly:grob-set-object! dcol 'dots (ly:grob-list->grob-array
dots))
(for-each (lambda (dot) (ly:grob-set-parent! dot X dcol))
dots)
(ly:grob-set-parent! dcol X group)))
(ly:grob-set-parent! col X group)
(ly:grob-translate-axis! col -0.6 X
Note that DotColumns are supposed to be created on Staff level, so in case
you have multiple Voices this engraver should sit at the staff level (this
should
cause any problems, as Jean’s code does not really make use of any context
specific stuff).
Cheers,
Valentin
Am Mittwoch, 22. Februar 2023, 17:06:50 CET schrieb Immanuel Asmus:
> Thank you, this works like a charm, even with tuplets, multiple voices
> or staves (as far as I tested).
> There is one case that doesn’t work as expected, but I do not (yet) need
> it: Namely, when the note on the barline is dotted, the dot will not be
> moved. Try, e.g.,
>
> \fixed c' { \time 3/4 d4 g2. fis8 g a4 }
>
> instead of the original melody, and you see what I mean.
>
> Regards,
> Immanuel
>
> Am 22.02.2023 um 15:49 schrieb Jean Abou Samra:
> > Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 15:05 +0100, Immanuel Asmus a écrit :
> >> |Dear all, I want to typeset the sincopa as it was customary between
> >>
> >> 1500 and 1700 AD: A note whose duration would exceed the bar should
> >> be placed directly on the barline. (Attached is a scan from a 1739
> >> edition of one of Geminiani’s sonatas.) Some years ago, I found a
> >> snippet that dealt exactly with this problem and used some excessive
> >> scheme coding, so I know it must be possible. However, I’m unable to
> >> relocate this snippet. Any help would be appreciated. |
> >
> > For me, this works:
> > |\version "2.25.3" #(define (Heads_on_bar_lines_engraver context) (let
> >
> > ((busy #f)) (make-engraver ((process-music engraver) (let ((current
> > (ly:context-current-moment context))) (set! busy (filter-map
> > (match-lambda ((end . grob) (and (not (equal? end current)) grob)))
> > (ly:context-property context 'busyGrobs '())
> > ((stop-translation-timestep engraver) (let ((bar (ly:context-property
> > context 'currentBarLine #f))) (when (and bar (pair? busy)) (let ((col
> > (ly:grob-parent (car busy) X)) (group (ly:grob-parent bar X)))
> > (ly:grob-set-parent! col X group) (ly:grob-translate-axis! col -0.6
> > X \layout { \context { \Voice \consists
> > #Heads_on_bar_lines_engraver } } \fixed c' { \time 3/4 r4 d g2 fis8(
> > g) a4 r g b2 a8( b) c'4 r b d' g c'( ees') } |
> >
> > I am actually pretty surprised that it works, because I would have
> > expected turning note columns into non-musical grobs to wreck all
> > assumptions of the layout engine, but, well, at least on this example,
> > it works. I would not count on it to be super reliable, though.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Jean
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Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Jeff Kopmanis writes: > I'm with you, Kevin. "mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and > common sense", is right on target. > > I'm an IT professional, and I can completely sympathize and appreciate > all that Jean deals with. Thank You, ALL, for your largely thankless > efforts. You provide such a valuable service to the Lilypond > community in support of a very powerful and somewhat complex piece of > software. Think how much something of this quality would cost in a > commercial setting?! > > I think it'd be perfectly acceptable to auto-reply to non-members with > a polite "Subscribe to post to this list" type of message. If you > can't take the time to become a member of a list/community, then there > should be no expectation that the community will take the time to > respond to the request. I don't think that the LilyPond user base is of a size where elitist thinking is providing a good basis for keeping the user-poweruser-developer-magician pyramid stable. -- David Kastrup
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Kevin Cole writes: > On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 6:21 PM Andrew Bernard > wrote: > >> Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If >> people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to >> participate there's something wrong. > > This was my reaction as well. I think I'm finally "old", as I > increasingly feel that society as a whole is encouraging and abetting > mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and common sense, and the > shortening of attention spans. To me it's one of efficiency to use one medium instead of a flurry of different websites with different interfaces. -- David Kastrup
Re: Note head on barline
Thank you, this works like a charm, even with tuplets, multiple voices
or staves (as far as I tested).
There is one case that doesn’t work as expected, but I do not (yet) need
it: Namely, when the note on the barline is dotted, the dot will not be
moved. Try, e.g.,
\fixed c' { \time 3/4 d4 g2. fis8 g a4 }
instead of the original melody, and you see what I mean.
Regards,
Immanuel
Am 22.02.2023 um 15:49 schrieb Jean Abou Samra:
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 15:05 +0100, Immanuel Asmus a écrit :
|Dear all, I want to typeset the sincopa as it was customary between
1500 and 1700 AD: A note whose duration would exceed the bar should
be placed directly on the barline. (Attached is a scan from a 1739
edition of one of Geminiani’s sonatas.) Some years ago, I found a
snippet that dealt exactly with this problem and used some excessive
scheme coding, so I know it must be possible. However, I’m unable to
relocate this snippet. Any help would be appreciated. |
For me, this works:
|\version "2.25.3" #(define (Heads_on_bar_lines_engraver context) (let
((busy #f)) (make-engraver ((process-music engraver) (let ((current
(ly:context-current-moment context))) (set! busy (filter-map
(match-lambda ((end . grob) (and (not (equal? end current)) grob)))
(ly:context-property context 'busyGrobs '())
((stop-translation-timestep engraver) (let ((bar (ly:context-property
context 'currentBarLine #f))) (when (and bar (pair? busy)) (let ((col
(ly:grob-parent (car busy) X)) (group (ly:grob-parent bar X)))
(ly:grob-set-parent! col X group) (ly:grob-translate-axis! col -0.6
X \layout { \context { \Voice \consists
#Heads_on_bar_lines_engraver } } \fixed c' { \time 3/4 r4 d g2 fis8(
g) a4 r g b2 a8( b) c'4 r b d' g c'( ees') } |
I am actually pretty surprised that it works, because I would have
expected turning note columns into non-musical grobs to wreck all
assumptions of the layout engine, but, well, at least on this example,
it works. I would not count on it to be super reliable, though.
Best,
Jean
Re: Discourse
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 08:09 -0600, Karlin High a écrit : > On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 7:52 AM Andrew Bernard > <[andrew.bern...@mailbox.org](mailto:andrew.bern...@mailbox.org)> wrote: > > > Sorry, it can't interface to GNU Mailman, although, as said, it can > > import such lists. > > I was thinking more indirectly, with the only "interface" between them being > email: > > * Every list email becomes a Discourse email-origin post > > * Every Discourse-origin post becomes a list email > > Unless there are reasons unknown to me why that wouldn't work well? You can do some amount of communication like this using "virtual" accounts (a Discourse account with the list email, a list account with the "new post on Discourse" email), but the (or one) tricky part is making a thread on the list appear as one thread on Discourse rather than a new thread for each message. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 12:14 +, Mark Knoop a écrit : > > At 12:34 on 22 Feb 2023, Jean Abou Samra wrote: > > So you want to keep the possibility to post while not being > > subscribed, but make the messages that I'm manually sending now be > > sent automatically? > > > > > At first, I thought this wasn't possible, but it actually appears > > possible (the configuration for the held message notice text is just > > in a completely different place than the configuration for the > > rejection notice text in the Mailman 2 UI...). That would be fine with > > me as well. Mark, WDYT? > > > Absolutely - this sounds ideal if it's possible. I went ahead and did just this. I think it should be a good compromise. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
I'm with you, Kevin. "mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and common sense", is right on target. I'm an IT professional, and I can completely sympathize and appreciate all that Jean deals with. Thank You, ALL, for your largely thankless efforts. You provide such a valuable service to the Lilypond community in support of a very powerful and somewhat complex piece of software. Think how much something of this quality would cost in a commercial setting?! I think it'd be perfectly acceptable to auto-reply to non-members with a polite "Subscribe to post to this list" type of message. If you can't take the time to become a member of a list/community, then there should be no expectation that the community will take the time to respond to the request. -Jeff. :) On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 9:43 AM Kevin Cole wrote: > On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 6:21 PM Andrew Bernard > wrote: > > > Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If > > people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to > > participate there's something wrong. > > This was my reaction as well. I think I'm finally "old", as I > increasingly feel that society as a whole is encouraging and abetting > mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and common sense, and the > shortening of attention spans. > > > Just reject the posts. That's very standard, and that is why the list > > software supports that option. > > Again, hear, hear. Admining a mailing list is a thankless job. Take > advantage of the tools that make it less painful. > > Some might complain that subscribing floods their inbox with posts > that are irrelevant. So, in other words, the admin and those who > subscribe are there to serve the whims of the non-subscribers and not > cause them any personal discomfort. Sorry, that's not the way > communities work. And most mailing list services offer a way to stem > the tide and mitigate the flood. If people cannot be bothered to read > the instructions telling them they need to subscribe, then clearly the > list isn't worth their precious time, and they can happily go on to > other "more important" things in their lives. A moderator / > administrator shouldn't need to be a babysitter or nanny. > > Eventually, people who post without subscribing, and get no response > should be able to figure out on their own that, perhaps, just maybe, > following the instructions might just improve the response rate, > > (On the other hand, I have a high tolerance for people who miss > something that the masses consider "obvious" in complex systems. So, > I've never been a fan of the ruder RTFM type responses. It does mean > that a lot of questions get asked over and over again, and the > temptation is great to say "Use a search engine, for god's sake!" But > saying that in a polite way is okay.) > > But I rant. ;-) > > -- *Jeff Kopmanis* Medium: https://kopmanis.medium.com GLAAC: https://www.glaac.org/ University Lowbrow Astronomers: http://umich.edu/~lowbrows Orange Can Astronomy: https://www.facebook.com/orangecanastronomy/ ** Go Green and leave this email on the Screen! **
Re: Fwd: Note head on barline
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 15:05 +0100, Immanuel Asmus a écrit :
> Dear all,I want to typeset the sincopa as it was customary
> between 1500 and 1700 AD: A note whose duration would exceed the bar
> should be placed directly on the barline. (Attached is a scan from a
>1739 edition of one of Geminiani’s sonatas.)
> Some years ago, I found a snippet that dealt exactly with this
> problem and used some excessive scheme coding, so I know it must be
> possible. However, I’m unable to relocate this snippet.
> Any help would be appreciated.
For me, this works:
```
\version "2.25.3"
#(define (Heads_on_bar_lines_engraver context)
(let ((busy #f))
(make-engraver
((process-music engraver)
(let ((current (ly:context-current-moment context)))
(set! busy (filter-map
(match-lambda
((end . grob)
(and (not (equal? end current))
grob)))
(ly:context-property context 'busyGrobs '())
((stop-translation-timestep engraver)
(let ((bar (ly:context-property context 'currentBarLine #f)))
(when (and bar (pair? busy))
(let ((col (ly:grob-parent (car busy) X))
(group (ly:grob-parent bar X)))
(ly:grob-set-parent! col X group)
(ly:grob-translate-axis! col -0.6 X
\layout {
\context {
\Voice
\consists #Heads_on_bar_lines_engraver
}
}
\fixed c' {
\time 3/4
r4 d g2 fis8( g) a4 r g b2 a8( b) c'4
r b d' g c'( ees')
}
```
I am actually pretty surprised that it works, because I would have expected
turning note columns into non-musical grobs to wreck all assumptions of the
layout engine, but, well, at least on this example, it works. I would not count
on it to be super reliable, though.
Best,
Jean
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Re: Policy for posts from non-members
On Tue, Feb 21, 2023 at 6:21 PM Andrew Bernard wrote: > Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If > people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to > participate there's something wrong. This was my reaction as well. I think I'm finally "old", as I increasingly feel that society as a whole is encouraging and abetting mass abandonment of critical thinking skills and common sense, and the shortening of attention spans. > Just reject the posts. That's very standard, and that is why the list > software supports that option. Again, hear, hear. Admining a mailing list is a thankless job. Take advantage of the tools that make it less painful. Some might complain that subscribing floods their inbox with posts that are irrelevant. So, in other words, the admin and those who subscribe are there to serve the whims of the non-subscribers and not cause them any personal discomfort. Sorry, that's not the way communities work. And most mailing list services offer a way to stem the tide and mitigate the flood. If people cannot be bothered to read the instructions telling them they need to subscribe, then clearly the list isn't worth their precious time, and they can happily go on to other "more important" things in their lives. A moderator / administrator shouldn't need to be a babysitter or nanny. Eventually, people who post without subscribing, and get no response should be able to figure out on their own that, perhaps, just maybe, following the instructions might just improve the response rate, (On the other hand, I have a high tolerance for people who miss something that the masses consider "obvious" in complex systems. So, I've never been a fan of the ruder RTFM type responses. It does mean that a lot of questions get asked over and over again, and the temptation is great to say "Use a search engine, for god's sake!" But saying that in a polite way is okay.) But I rant. ;-)
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Hi, Am 22.02.23 um 12:45 schrieb Andrew Bernard: Most employed people who work use email daily and countless people understand folders and filters. Well... I cordially invite you to come visit us and marvel at what one encounters when working in a thoroughly non-technical environment like, for example, a music university :-). E-Mail, yes; folders, probably; automatic filtering, no way. [Re Musescore, that may have been an offhand reference just to a random competing application but on the forum page it is stated: "Log in to post new content in the forum." https://musescore.org/en/forum ] Yes, it was a more-or-less random reference to the most important "competing" (if that term is applicable at all) free software music typesetting system. But not because MuseScore offers a more accessible forum - I have no idea how that works there -, but because MuseScore looks to non-technical people more like what they expect from a music typesetting system. LilyPond _is_ esoteric. And although I'm quite skeptical about its suitability as engraving program for non-technically-minded musicians, I think we don't have to increase the barrier more than necessary. Frankly, even I myself am using MuseScore for a lot of "simple music typesetting" tasks these days (having gotten to know it better during the pandemic): I only turn to LilyPond now for "serious stuff that should look seriously great". But of course this discussion borders on being OT. Lukas
Re: Discourse
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 7:52 AM Andrew Bernard wrote: > Sorry, it can't interface to GNU Mailman, although, as said, it can > import such lists. > I was thinking more indirectly, with the only "interface" between them being email: * Every list email becomes a Discourse email-origin post * Every Discourse-origin post becomes a list email Unless there are reasons unknown to me why that wouldn't work well? -- Karlin High Missouri, USA >
Re: Discourse
Sorry, it can't interface to GNU Mailman, although, as said, it can import such lists. Andrew On 23/02/2023 12:48 am, Karlin High wrote: If Discourse can be configured to simply provide a web interface for the email list, I think that would be more of a restoration rather than a change to the LilyPond community's group communication.
Re: Discourse
On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 7:12 AM Jean Abou Samra wrote: > a bridge with this list. This existed in the past with Nabble. If Discourse can be configured to simply provide a web interface for the email list, I think that would be more of a restoration rather than a change to the LilyPond community's group communication. I've interacted via email with another Discourse forum, containing a fair number of members using email exclusively for it, and it seemed to work well. Some web-only features such as polls would not be accessible via email and would either need disabled down to email-equivalent functionality or make Discourse users aware that posts of that nature will not reach the full community. -- Karlin High Missouri, USA
Re: Discourse
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 23:39 +1100, Andrew Bernard a écrit : > My offer is open. Migrating and shutting down this mailing list would be a really, *really* major change that would need broad discussion and approval after quite some time of using the new Discourse server in parallel to the mailing list. It took several years, for example, for the Python project to migrate from its mailing lists to discuss.python.org. On the other hand, nothing prevents you from setting up a Discourse server for LilyPond discussions independently from this mailing list. After all, it's not different from how there are already LilyPond-related discussions in peripheral sites like the Facebook group, StackExchange and Reddit in addition to this main mailing list. Whether that is desirable is the real question. I think it is desirable to avoid more fragmentation, which is why I thought about a bridge with this list. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Discourse
I mean openlilylib.space not .org. a On 22/02/2023 11:39 pm, Andrew Bernard wrote: And of course, re openlilylib.org and it's associated Discourse server, I created that and shut it down recently due to virtually complete lack of interest.
Re: Discourse
My offer is open. For the main Discourse server I run, amusingly the majority of people use the email interface, no matter how much I encourage them to use the nice web interface. [It's a forum devoted to harpsichord.] The point is that it runs the web interface and email list including digests in parallel, and you can initiate topics by email as well. And of course, re openlilylib.org and it's associated Discourse server, I created that and shut it down recently due to virtually complete lack of interest. One Discourse server I set up I migrated 25 years worth of emails from a GNU Mailman list into. It worked, but it was a major headache, and due to the varying quality of the source list over such a long time there were posts that just could not be transferred. It's not something I'd be willing to do re the lilypond user list, given the experience I have had with this sort of thing. Andrew On 22/02/2023 11:25 pm, Jean Abou Samra wrote: So a Discourse forum has been on the back of my mind for quite some time now.
Discourse
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 22:45 +1100, Andrew Bernard a écrit : > If people think an email list presents a barrier to people, I'm willing > to offer to set up and host the list as a Discourse server, the modern > way which has a superb web interface and also supports at the same time > 95% of the functions of a traditional email list for people who want > that. Many companies use Discourse now for their forums, a notable > example of which is Steinberg. Something I have been wanting to suggest > for some time. [Changing the subject line since this is a new topic] A few years ago, there was a Nabble interface to all LilyPond mailing lists. When Nabble was discontinued, there was quite a bit of disappointment (especially on the -user-fr) list. For example, I recall one of the reactions was roughly "I don't want to receive tonnes of emails in my inbox" (someone who obviously didn't know about mail filters). So a Discourse forum has been on the back of my mind for quite some time now. However, I'm kind of attached to the GNU list infrastructure — while old-fashioned (not just mailing lists, but mailing lists running on the unsupported Mailman 2), it is very stable and has served us without interruption for 25 years now. During that time, the mailing list for translations on lilynet.net was discontinued and the archives lost when lilynet.net expired without being renewed (I don't even know who owned it, maybe Valentin Villenave ?), Nabble was discontinued as well, Google Code (previously used for LilyPond development) was shut down, lilypondblog.org similarly went away, and openlilylib.org too. So my own idea wouldn't be migrating the list to Discourse entirely, but making a bridge with Discourse like Nabble used to be. I think it's possible, but I never took the time to really try. (And yes, while I initially disliked Discourse compared to mailing lists, after getting used to it on https://discuss.python.org, I have to admit it's quite nice. You can always interact with it by email if you wish.) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
At 12:34 on 22 Feb 2023, Jean Abou Samra wrote: >> I've said this already, and I'm happy to say this again: To me, the >> LilyPond community is likely the most friendly, helpful place I've >> ever encountered on "the internet". We shouldn't erect too high a >> barrier to entering it, and for people who are not familiar (e.g.) >> with automatic e-mail filtering/sorting rules etc., I think >> subscribing to an e-mail list does look like a barrier: We should >> advertise doing it, but not force people contacting us for the first >> time to do it. > So you want to keep the possibility to post while not being > subscribed, but make the messages that I'm manually sending now be > sent automatically? > At first, I thought this wasn't possible, but it actually appears > possible (the configuration for the held message notice text is just > in a completely different place than the configuration for the > rejection notice text in the Mailman 2 UI...). That would be fine with > me as well. Mark, WDYT? Absolutely - this sounds ideal if it's possible. -- Mark Knoop
Re: `->` handled differently to `-.`?
> You can see on the cis > that the dot is there (sticking to the bottom of the cis). D'oh, I missed this, thanks! I've now completely rewritten and simplified LSR #280 to make its description align with the visual result. Werner
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Oh come now people. :-) Gen XYZ people have to register to use Discord, and Facebook, and Reddit, and Twitter, almost all Discourse forums and more. Most employed people who work use email daily and countless people understand folders and filters. So email interfaces can't be unfamiliar to younger people and the act of subscribing is just entering a name and an email address and responding to confirmation emails. Needless to worry about scaring people off. So far all the people who have been asked manually to subscribe appear to have done so without objection. Also, the aim of the game is not to attract the maximum number of members, but to offer community and support to genuine users and subscribers. If some people are scared off by these very minimal joining requirements then maybe they are not the sort of members you want on a list anyway, if such a simple thing is a stumbling block. Just exactly the sort of people no doubt we have to manually train repetitively to actually provide an MWE with their query, another laborious and time consuming task for list admins and members, even though this is mentioned and has a page on the website. You know what I mean. On the Discourse servers that I run I have a policy page which explains policies like this in detail, so that it is plain to all comers and active subscribers. Although we are talking about a mailing list here, perhaps the lilypond.org site could have a page devoted to the principles and policies of the mailing list function. This page: https://lilypond.org/contact.html has only the bare minimum of contact information, with no policy, mailing list FAQ and so on made plain. If people think an email list presents a barrier to people, I'm willing to offer to set up and host the list as a Discourse server, the modern way which has a superb web interface and also supports at the same time 95% of the functions of a traditional email list for people who want that. Many companies use Discourse now for their forums, a notable example of which is Steinberg. Something I have been wanting to suggest for some time. https://www.discourse.org/about Open source and able to be self hosted. The policy I employ is that the Discourse server is open to the public for viewing and searching, available to bots for indexing, but you have to subscribe to post, in order to prevent spam. So far I have never had a complaint about this type of policy. [Re Musescore, that may have been an offhand reference just to a random competing application but on the forum page it is stated: "Log in to post new content in the forum." https://musescore.org/en/forum ] Andrew On 22/02/2023 9:38 pm, Lukas-Fabian Moser wrote: Of course, considering the unbelievable number of things you're contributing to LilyPond as a whole, you're perfectly free to design things in a fashion that is least cumbersome to you. But I'm afraid a message like the one you proposed (although its wording is perfectly friendly and polite) will turn new users away, who just might say: Don't bother, I'll stick to MuseScore then. Mailing lists are old, yes (like Andrew said), but this does not mean that by now, everybody should be accustomed to them: It could just as well mean (and I think it does) that younger people are not acquainted with them anymore. So, I think a better solution would be to keep things as they are, but let non-subscribed users automatically (if that's possible!) receive an e-mail saying: - welcome - you're not subscribed, so it might take longer until you get an answer, as your message has to be approved manually - also, you might not see answers given to you, if somebody who helps you doesn't "reply to all" but sends his reply to the user list only. - so you might just consider subscribing to the list, which you can do here: [link] I don't think that this is would be a moral problem in the sense of a canned reply disguised as a human interaction. It would keep your moderation task to a mere minimum (namely, approving the message), but without giving the new users the feeling that their message has actually been rejected. I've said this already, and I'm happy to say this again: To me, the LilyPond community is likely the most friendly, helpful place I've ever encountered on "the internet". We shouldn't erect too high a barrier to entering it, and for people who are not familiar (e.g.) with automatic e-mail filtering/sorting rules etc., I think subscribing to an e-mail list does look like a barrier: We should advertise doing it, but not force people contacting us for the first time to do it. Lukas
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 11:38 +0100, Lukas-Fabian Moser a écrit : > I'm a bit late to the party, but nevertheless: I think I'm with Wol and > Werner (and David K.?) here. Replying after 12 hours is not late to the party :-) > Of course, considering the unbelievable number of things you're > contributing to LilyPond as a whole, you're perfectly free to design > things in a fashion that is least cumbersome to you. > > But I'm afraid a message like the one you proposed (although its wording > is perfectly friendly and polite) will turn new users away, who just > might say: Don't bother, I'll stick to MuseScore then. Mailing lists are > old, yes (like Andrew said), but this does not mean that by now, > everybody should be accustomed to them: It could just as well mean (and > I think it does) that younger people are not acquainted with them anymore. Yes, that is the case. (My first interaction with a LilyPond list 4 years ago was a little puzzling, as I didn't know about mailing lists before. To be precise, I really hesitated before posting, because I saw the "lilypond-user...@gnu.org" address at the bottom of "lilypond --help" but without understanding at first that I could see the past posts to that list. Also, the fact that there is an active Facebook group for LilyPond help, while Facebook is not adapted to that at all [in addition to the privacy evil] makes me think that the people there might not be comfortable using a mailing list.) > So, I think a better solution would be to keep things as they are, but > let non-subscribed users automatically (if that's possible!) receive an > e-mail saying: > > - welcome > - you're not subscribed, so it might take longer until you get an > answer, as your message has to be approved manually > - also, you might not see answers given to you, if somebody who helps > you doesn't "reply to all" but sends his reply to the user list only. > - so you might just consider subscribing to the list, which you can do > here: [link] > > I don't think that this is would be a moral problem in the sense of a > canned reply disguised as a human interaction. It would keep your > moderation task to a mere minimum (namely, approving the message), but > without giving the new users the feeling that their message has actually > been rejected. > > I've said this already, and I'm happy to say this again: To me, the > LilyPond community is likely the most friendly, helpful place I've ever > encountered on "the internet". We shouldn't erect too high a barrier to > entering it, and for people who are not familiar (e.g.) with automatic > e-mail filtering/sorting rules etc., I think subscribing to an e-mail > list does look like a barrier: We should advertise doing it, but not > force people contacting us for the first time to do it. So you want to keep the possibility to post while not being subscribed, but make the messages that I'm manually sending now be sent automatically? At first, I thought this wasn't possible, but it actually appears possible (the configuration for the held message notice text is just in a completely different place than the configuration for the rejection notice text in the Mailman 2 UI...). That would be fine with me as well. Mark, WDYT? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Please ignore
Le mercredi 22 février 2023 à 11:54 +0100, Jean Abou Samra a écrit : > Mark -- please ignore this email / reject it in the moderation interface. I'm > just trying to see how Mailman reacts when a non-member (my other email > address in this case) posts. I think it sends a notification to the > non-member, but I'm not sure. *Facepalm* Obviously, I didn't intend this to reach the list. Now I understand what happened: this email address jabou...@ens-paris-saclay.fr is in the “List of non-member addresses whose postings should be automatically accepted.” (which grows when moderators tick a box while approving a message). Well, so please ignore, sorry. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Please ignore
Mark -- please ignore this email / reject it in the moderation interface. I'm just trying to see how Mailman reacts when a non-member (my other email address in this case) posts. I think it sends a notification to the non-member, but I'm not sure.
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Hi Jean, I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually approved. I wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the other admin) would think about changing the list configuration to reject post from non-members instead of holding them on moderation, with a message such as “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please fill out the subscription form on https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user. Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact with this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your membership preferences after you have subscribed. If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means that you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one you are subscribed with. If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org” On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly. I'm a bit late to the party, but nevertheless: I think I'm with Wol and Werner (and David K.?) here. Of course, considering the unbelievable number of things you're contributing to LilyPond as a whole, you're perfectly free to design things in a fashion that is least cumbersome to you. But I'm afraid a message like the one you proposed (although its wording is perfectly friendly and polite) will turn new users away, who just might say: Don't bother, I'll stick to MuseScore then. Mailing lists are old, yes (like Andrew said), but this does not mean that by now, everybody should be accustomed to them: It could just as well mean (and I think it does) that younger people are not acquainted with them anymore. So, I think a better solution would be to keep things as they are, but let non-subscribed users automatically (if that's possible!) receive an e-mail saying: - welcome - you're not subscribed, so it might take longer until you get an answer, as your message has to be approved manually - also, you might not see answers given to you, if somebody who helps you doesn't "reply to all" but sends his reply to the user list only. - so you might just consider subscribing to the list, which you can do here: [link] I don't think that this is would be a moral problem in the sense of a canned reply disguised as a human interaction. It would keep your moderation task to a mere minimum (namely, approving the message), but without giving the new users the feeling that their message has actually been rejected. I've said this already, and I'm happy to say this again: To me, the LilyPond community is likely the most friendly, helpful place I've ever encountered on "the internet". We shouldn't erect too high a barrier to entering it, and for people who are not familiar (e.g.) with automatic e-mail filtering/sorting rules etc., I think subscribing to an e-mail list does look like a barrier: We should advertise doing it, but not force people contacting us for the first time to do it. Lukas
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
Hello Andrew, mailing lists have, but not all people have, and even if they have they do not necessarily have experience with mailing lists. Many people have (if at all) experiences with internet forums and recently with chat groups such as Discord. If a random person is looking for some help in Lilypond and click on the Community page there is a point: Contact: get help, discuss, and keep in touch! which then refers to the user list, but it simply states User mailing list: lilypond-user@gnu.org This mailing list is the main place for users to discuss and help each other. and then gives a few links for subscription and info and archieves. This already assumes that the visitor knows how a mailing list and list etiquette works. I think it is not unexpected that some people do not, and some people might just be happy they found an email address to contact. So while I support Jean’s suggestion I think it is important not to assume that there is something wrong with people getting it wrong, but to give them a chance to learn how to use a mailing list. And this involves not simply rejecting them, but telling them why they are being rejected (e.g. by an automatic reply such as Jean suggested). But even more so the point User Discussions and Help on the webpage should probably be reworded to make it very clear that you should be subscribed to the list to make posts, such as: User mailing list: lilypond-user@gnu.org This mailing list is the main place for users to discuss and help each other. If you need help with a problem subscribe to the list here[link] and send an email stating your problem to lilypond-user@gnu.org. Please understand that to avoid spam you must be subscribed to post a message. Using the provided link you can control if and in what manner messages to the list are send to you. Cheers, Valentin Am Mittwoch, 22. Februar 2023, 00:20:37 CET schrieb Andrew Bernard: > Dear me, mailing lists have been around for half as century or more. If > people do not understand that it is normal to subscribe to a list to > participate there's something wrong. Just reject the posts. That's very > standard, and that is why the list software supports that option. Jean > you already spend a huge amount of time helping people on the list, the > administrivia of dealing with people who can't be bothered to spend a > minute to sign up is not worth your time. If you don't make this change > you will just be doing this useless task forever. > > [Of course the moment I post people will provide proof of lists that do > not need joining, but seriously, most lists do. Also, services such as > Reddit require registration. It's a very basic concept.] > > Andrew > > On 22/02/2023 9:36 am, Jean Abou Samra wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already > > weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list > > that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages > > being manually approved. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Policy for posts from non-members
FWIW, I'm quite happy with that wording. On 2023-02-21 22:36, Jean Abou Samra wrote: Hi, I've not been an admin of this list for very long, yet I'm already weary of telling people who post without being subscribed to the list that they should subscribe in order to avoid each of their messages being manually approved. I wonder what you (meaning everyone, but especially Mark, the other admin) would think about changing the list configuration to reject post from non-members instead of holding them on moderation, with a message such as “Welcome to the lilypond-user mailing list. We apologize, but in order to prevent spam, we need you to subscribe to the list before you post. Please fill out the subscription form on https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user. Once you are subscribed, you will receive all posts to the list, so you can help out other people as well. However, if you only wish to interact with this list infrequently, you may disable mail subscription in your membership preferences after you have subscribed. If you believe you are already subscribed to the list, it probably means that you accidentally posted from a different email address than the one you are subscribed with. If you have any question or encounter problems, feel free to contact the list admins at lilypond-user-ow...@gnu.org” On the plus side, this means that instead of delaying the message until Mark or me looks at it, the feedback will come instantly. Jean
Re: `->` handled differently to `-.`?
Hello Werner, if you look into script.scm you’ll see that > and . are in fact handled slightly differently. But this does not matter here. You can see on the cis that the dot is there (sticking to the bottom of the cis). But without stem the articulations are placed at the center line. This means that the b and the . are in the same place. The only reason why this does not affect > here is that the > is on a d. If you lower that d to a b you will see note and > colliding. Note that this is only happening because Lilypond is not able to assign a direction to the Script without Stem. So if you explicitely give a direction to these Scripts they will align nicely. Cheers, Valentin Am Mittwoch, 22. Februar 2023, 10:31:58 CET schrieb Werner LEMBERG: > Please have a look at LSR snippet #280. > > https://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=280 > > What is the reason that the accent appears from the very beginning, > while the staccato dots are shown later on? I thought that both are > articulations and are handled the same. > > > Werner signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
`->` handled differently to `-.`?
Please have a look at LSR snippet #280. https://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=280 What is the reason that the accent appears from the very beginning, while the staccato dots are shown later on? I thought that both are articulations and are handled the same. Werner
