Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Robert Schmaus]

Hi Kieren and Ponders,


I’m very detail-oriented, so things that others might consider “little” often 
drive me quite crazy.  =)


Well, "little" is the wrong expression - "not painful enough to invest 
the time" is closer to the truth.




Quite possibly that is easy to fix though


Should be.


Turns out, it isn't that easy to fix, for me anyway. Maybe anyone can 
point me in the right direction ...


I checked the code of my jazz-include files, and this is where the 
chords are being defined:


chJazzMusic = {
  < c ees ges > -\markup \super #"o"
  < c d g >  -\markup \super #"sus2"
  < c f g >  -\markup \super #"sus4"

  % etc
}

chJazz = #(append (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions chJazzMusic #t))

\layout {
  \context {
\Score
chordNameExceptions = #chJazz
\override ChordName.font-size = #4
\override ChordName.font-name = #"LilyJAZZText"
  }
}

Now, I assumed that I had to do something about the accidentals in that 
\context block, but apparently it's not that easy.


I checked this example from the LSR
http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Snippet?id=750
and I think, what I need to do is to set the chordRootNamer in that 
\context block. There even is a chord namer routine in my include file 
which looks like this:


#(define (chordNamer pitch)
(let* ((alt (ly:pitch-alteration pitch)))
(make-line-markup
 (list
  (make-simple-markup
   (vector-ref #("C" "D" "E" "F" "G" "A" "B")
(ly:pitch-notename pitch)))
  (if (= alt 0) ; alteration?
  (markup "") ; ... nope
  (if (= alt FLAT) ; ... otherwise
  (markup #:smaller #:flat ) ; flat
  (markup #:smaller #:sharp ) ; ... or sharp
  )
  )
  )
 )
)
)

That's what I need to change and use but right now, that code is not 
even called.

I think I need to add something like

chordRootNamer = #chordNamer

to the \context block but that doesn't work, it throws this error:

Interpreting music...[8][16]/Applications/Lilypond/v19/LilyPond 
2.19.18.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/chord-ignatzek-names.scm:212:9: 
In procedure chordNamer in expression (name-root root lowercase-root?):
/Applications/Lilypond/v19/LilyPond 
2.19.18.app/Contents/Resources/share/lilypond/current/scm/chord-ignatzek-names.scm:212:9: 
Wrong number of arguments to #

Exited with return code 1.

I don't really know what to change here ... can anyone give me directions?

Thanks,
Robert






LilyJazz […] does provide output that is superbly readable even in shady, dim 
conditions.


Agreed.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> The engraver would convert  into something akin to c c' d' f'
> bf' (somewhat opaque example since the first is the root pitch and the
> others are the relation to the root note, expressed as intervals from
> c').  There would be one or several markups for interpreting the c' d'
> f' bf' part of the list.  And likely some exceptions mechanism.

I personally think like an input like

  /c  ==>  Bb/C or Bb(6/3)/C or etc.
==>  C7(sus2,4) or etc.

would be a huge help (at least to me). Wouldn’t have to be exactly like that, 
of course… but should be a clear and easy way to explicitly separate the 
chord(s), inversion(s), and root(s) into bits to be reassembled into a name 
later.

> But it would be quite clear how to assemble one's own solution
> from scratch and what building blocks were available for it.

That would ultimately be the most important thing.

> The current situation also offers "from scratch" assembly, but there are
> basically no useful building blocks or recognizable mechanisms.

+1

> It's a feature rather than a bug that LilyPond tries to avoid passing
> information via anything but the chord pitches: that way you can get
> sensible labelling of chords not entered via chordmode.  This is not
> complete: some special properties come into play in order to allow for
> inversions to be labelled relative to the purported root note rather
> than the nominally lowest note.

Correct.

Best,
Kieren.


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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[BB]

Sorry for  misunderstanding/misinterpretation.
In lilypond I write bes for bflat, In text writing  I use bB.

On 18.01.2016 15:23, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

Hi,


Bb/C is built of  C Bb D F

…which is what I wrote: “bf” is Bb using english note names.


May be you did a typing error

No.


You never get correct chord names without knowing the context

That’s exactly my point.

Regards,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info




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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Robert,

> It is possible though that all tools for doing that are already present in 
> LilyJazz ... I simply don't remember now.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear: the accidentals in your chord names aren’t using the 
LilyJazz font, as far as I can tell, whereas the rest of the glyphs (e.g., 
letters, numbers) are.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> The engraver would convert  into something akin to c c' d' f'
>> bf' (somewhat opaque example since the first is the root pitch and the
>> others are the relation to the root note, expressed as intervals from
>> c').  There would be one or several markups for interpreting the c' d'
>> f' bf' part of the list.  And likely some exceptions mechanism.
>
> I personally think like an input like
>
>   /c  ==>  Bb/C or Bb(6/3)/C or etc.
> ==>  C7(sus2,4) or etc.
>
> would be a huge help (at least to me). Wouldn’t have to be exactly
> like that, of course… but should be a clear and easy way to explicitly
> separate the chord(s), inversion(s), and root(s) into bits to be
> reassembled into a name later.

Well, the above was not supposed to represent input to LilyPond: it's
what the chord naming functions work with internally.

LilyPond's input is basically just the notes in arbitrary order.
However, there are additional properties on single notes: root (boolean
flag for the root note), inversion (boolean flag for the inversion
note), octavation (octave difference to bring the note into an octave
suitable for recognizing the uninverted chord).

Creating nice music functions for conveying the same information might
be a start, but I don't think that it would suffice for everything
called out as "context information" in this thread.

One thing to note is that stuff like the "octavation" property should be
sufficient for hauling guitar chord shapes back into the realm of the
chord namer by placing everything back into its functional octave (and
presumably removing duplicates, haven't tried).

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Simon Albrecht]

On 18.01.2016 14:33, BB wrote:

On 18.01.2016 13:29, Kieren MacMillan wrote:



might be named
Dm9no5/C,
Cno5add2add4,
Fmaj7add6no3/C
depending on the context. Names are interpretations of the notes and 
always depend on the context. Your chords in the posting

 be labelled as Bb/C or C7(sus2,sus4)


Bb/C is built of  C Bb D F
C7(sus2) C D G A#
C7(sus4) C F G A#
you mention are different.

May be you did a typing error, then




Whatever you read into this, bf is just the English lilypond notename 
for what the English call B flat and the Germans call B.


Yours, Simon

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi,

> Bb/C is built of  C Bb D F

…which is what I wrote: “bf” is Bb using english note names.

> May be you did a typing error

No.

> You never get correct chord names without knowing the context

That’s exactly my point.

Regards,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi David,
>
>> Here's my take on how to do this more transparently: first have an
>> engraver that does the basic chord analysis and writes one or several
>> properties with the basic analysis results (like fundamental pitch and
>> scale offsets).  Those properties are made part of text-interface.
>> 
>> Then have several markup commands producing output based on those
>> properties.  Like German chord names, or a markup list with
>> modifications and stuff like that.  And then you can basically create
>> one fixed markup for each chord naming style and assign that to the
>> "text" field of a ChordName.
>> 
>> Also it then becomes easy to put chord names into a TextScript
>
> That all sounds great. If the engraver broke the chord components into
> the smallest possible bits (e.g., root, quality, third stack,
> alterations, bass or inversion), then the NameBuilder (or whatever)
> could format those however one pleased.
>
> However, I’m also concerned that the current input syntax isn’t rich
> enough. For example, one can’t tell Lilypond “at run time" if  bf> should be labelled as Bb/C or C7(sus2,sus4). [Note that, at this
> point, I don’t care what anyone’s preference for display of this chord
> is — I’m simply pointing out that I don’t know of a mechanism to force
> Lilypond to label the same set of notes two or more different ways.]

The engraver would convert  into something akin to c c' d' f'
bf' (somewhat opaque example since the first is the root pitch and the
others are the relation to the root note, expressed as intervals from
c').  There would be one or several markups for interpreting the c' d'
f' bf' part of the list.  And likely some exceptions mechanism.

So yes, configurability would still be a hand-wavy thing.  But it would
be quite clear how to assemble one's own solution from scratch and what
building blocks were available for it.

The current situation also offers "from scratch" assembly, but there are
basically no useful building blocks or recognizable mechanisms.

> So we should attack the input mode as well, to support the widest and
> most flexible possible usage.

It's a feature rather than a bug that LilyPond tries to avoid passing
information via anything but the chord pitches: that way you can get
sensible labelling of chords not entered via chordmode.  This is not
complete: some special properties come into play in order to allow for
inversions to be labelled relative to the purported root note rather
than the nominally lowest note.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[BB]

On 18.01.2016 13:29, Kieren MacMillan wrote:



might be named
Dm9no5/C,
Cno5add2add4,
Fmaj7add6no3/C
depending on the context. Names are interpretations of the notes and 
always depend on the context. Your chords in the posting

 be labelled as Bb/C or C7(sus2,sus4)


Bb/C is built of  C Bb D F
C7(sus2) C D G A#
C7(sus4) C F G A#
you mention are different.

May be you did a typing error, then



makes  Bb/C or Dm7#5/C again an ambiguity

You never get correct chord names without knowing the context - that is 
one will learn in the basic lessons any jazz school or jazz academy etc. 
To find the fitting context you need a kind of artificial intelligaence 
or knowledge base or a composers analyst tool ...


My 2 cts to the topic just beside of personal preferences of the chord 
name layout, position etc.


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Robert Schmaus]

Yes, that's true - I guess that never bothered me ... until now, that is, now 
that you mention it, thank you very much. 
Quite possibly that is easy to fix though - I'll look into that asap. 

Maybe I should add that, while I like producing aesthetically pleasing lead 
sheets, my first priority has always been to produce sheets that serve the 
performer. And LilyJazz - with or without jazzy accidentals - does provide 
output that is superbly readable even in shady, dim conditions. Only last week 
I played in a bar, and the sheets provided had chord names the size of a 
fine-print edition of the bible. I practically had to kiss the music stand the 
whole gig through ...

Cheers, Robert 

> Hi Robert,
> 
>> It is possible though that all tools for doing that are already present in 
>> LilyJazz ... I simply don't remember now.
> 
> Sorry, I wasn’t clear: the accidentals in your chord names aren’t using the 
> LilyJazz font, as far as I can tell, whereas the rest of the glyphs (e.g., 
> letters, numbers) are.
> 
> Cheers,
> Kieren.
> 
> 
> Kieren MacMillan, composer
> ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
> ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info
> 

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Robert,

> I guess that never bothered me ... until now, that is, now that you mention 
> it, thank you very much.

You’re welcome!

I’m very detail-oriented, so things that others might consider “little” often 
drive me quite crazy.  =)

> Quite possibly that is easy to fix though

Should be.

> LilyJazz […] does provide output that is superbly readable even in shady, dim 
> conditions.

Agreed.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Blöchl Bernhard]

Am 18.01.2016 08:44, schrieb Carl-Henrik Buschmann:

18. jan. 2016 kl. 02.40 skrev tim...@bitstream.net:


On Jan 17, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Carl-Henrik Buschmann
 wrote:

I'm not talking about code, i'm talking about style. And by the looks of 
it Sibelius at least have by and large been inspired by B But as you 
said, predefined is not the way to go. Even so, look at what they have 
done and simply mimick the behaviour. "Great artists steal".


Do you really believe that Sibelius was inspired by R?
The first edition of
Standardized chord symbol notation : (a uniform system for the music 
profession)

von Carl Brandt; Clinton Roemer Englisch
was published 1976 by Sherman Oaks, Calif. : Roerick Music Co.

Johan Julius Christian („Jean“) Sibelius * 8. Dezember 1865 in 
Hämeenlinna; † 20. September 1957 in Järvenpää near Helsinki;


Are you really doing in music? May be you are only a bit bored and like 
to make some noise?





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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Johan Vromans]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 09:12:42 +0100
Blöchl Bernhard  wrote:

> Do you really believe that Sibelius was inspired by R?

Not sure if troll

> Johan Julius Christian („Jean“) Sibelius * 8. Dezember 1865 in 
> Hämeenlinna; † 20. September 1957 in Järvenpää near Helsinki;

Sibelius Software
Initial release 1993

-- Johan

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Marc Hohl]

Am 18.01.2016 um 09:12 schrieb Blöchl Bernhard:
[...]


Do you really believe that Sibelius was inspired by R?
The first edition of
Standardized chord symbol notation : (a uniform system for the music
profession)
von Carl Brandt; Clinton Roemer Englisch
was published 1976 by Sherman Oaks, Calif. : Roerick Music Co.

Johan Julius Christian („Jean“) Sibelius * 8. Dezember 1865 in
Hämeenlinna; † 20. September 1957 in Järvenpää near Helsinki;


IIUC, it is about the software called Sibelius, not the composer.


Are you really doing in music? May be you are only a bit bored and like
to make some noise?


Please, let's come back to a more decent style of discussion.

Chord naming rules tend to upset people, but let's not get on
with that stuff ...

Marc


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[David Kastrup]

Kieren MacMillan  writes:

> Hi Simon,
>
>> Note the effect of sensible code formatting – it can’t be emphasised
> often enough…
>
> I actually had it that way in my example, but decided to put it on one
> line to save vertical space in the post.

Well, that's important for those of us who receive the mailing list over
fax.  Otherwise, line feeds tend to come pretty cheap in transmission.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[David Kastrup]

Carl-Henrik Buschmann  writes:

> Kieren is thankfully working on this and i hope the brains that code
> for lilypond can bash heads together and at least give us a *working*
> solution and stop bickering over personal preferences that only hinder
> the development.

I think you are confused about the line of command in LilyPond
development.  There isn't one.  The main motivation of the developers is
seeing their personal preferences attended.  Those may be preferences in
the code and its maintenance, it may be preferences in typesetting.
There is no "brains that code" who have to placate "us" by "at least
giving us a *working* solution".

You really need to get off that entitlement rap.  Either you don't
expect developers to read the user lists in which case there is no way
they could figure out what to do for "us", or you do, in which case the
motivational value of speeches like that cannot be underestimated.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[David Kastrup]

Thomas Morley  writes:

> 2016-01-17 22:28 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann :
>
> Thanks for code and links!
>
>> A properly formatet complex chord stacks alterations in parenthesis.
>
> Well, I disagre - at least as a general verdict.
>
>> Lilyponds default is
>> [...] undesirable.
>
> Ofcourse I disagree again, ;)
> Though, there are so many opinions about that topic...
>
> The main problem is that current LilyPond-default is very hard to
> tweak, apart from doing exceptions as Kieren already demonstrated.

Here's my take on how to do this more transparently: first have an
engraver that does the basic chord analysis and writes one or several
properties with the basic analysis results (like fundamental pitch and
scale offsets).  Those properties are made part of text-interface.

Then have several markup commands producing output based on those
properties.  Like German chord names, or a markup list with
modifications and stuff like that.  And then you can basically create
one fixed markup for each chord naming style and assign that to the
"text" field of a ChordName.

Also it then becomes easy to put chord names into a TextScript: it's
common for Jazz accordion scores using standard bass to name chords and
bass notes in textscript style in the bass staff according to the chord
button(s) to use, and to name them in ChordNames style according to
their function.  For example, you might have a chord c♭ for fingering
reasons in the accordion part while having B functionally (chord buttons
are in circle-of-fifth arrangement with considerable redundancy, so c♭
and b are 12 buttons apart from each other even though sounding exactly
the same notes).  Or you have Em6 functionally and c+em as buttons.

So the accordion chord naming function would likely take some auxiliary
info to be placed by either engraver or manually.

And so on.  If done right, stuff will both play and transpose reasonably
well.

And everybody could puzzle together his own chord markup reasonably
easy.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Robert Schmaus]

--
Note beforehand: I'm sending this from a phone, and I can't control if the 
attached picture is sent inline or not - hope you can see it, otherwise I'll 
have to resend it later today. 
--

Hi Carl-Henrik,

Fwiw, I write jazz sheets all the time, and I've trimmed Lilypond to produce 
stuff like this:



So, Lilypond is quite able to produce those complex chords you mention. This is 
definitely not out of the box though ... I've put quite some work into it. But 
I guess it goes along the lines of what Kieren sent you earlier ...

The question if it is sensible to go that way is something else.

Best, Robert 



> On 17 Jan 2016, at 20:30, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  wrote:
> 
> Sorry, thought the thread was referenced. 
> 
> I'm wondering if lilypond is able to notate complex chords, as discussed in 
> the before mentioned thread. 
> Examples as shown: 
> 
> 
> 
>> Den 17. jan. 2016 kl. 20.18 skrev Thomas Morley :
>> 
>> 2016-01-17 19:55 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann :
>>> Any news regarding this?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Well, what's "this"?
>> LilyPond exists, yes. There is no common definiton of "JazzChords".
>> So, no news. ;)
>> Maybe you may want to be a little more specific?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Harm
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

Chill pills for everybody! Smile :-)

> 18. jan. 2016 kl. 09.39 skrev David Kastrup :
> 
> There is no "brains that code" who have to placate "us" by "at least
> giving us a *working* solution".



I see how that might have been misunderstood, but please belive it was with the 
best of intentions, no disrespect to the guys keeping the fire going. If i 
could code this i would!

The way lilypond treats chords right now are lacking for anything but basic 
chords, this much we are agreed apon. The "real book" convention is a very good 
place to start. Let us not be so childish that we abandon that quest in a hay 
fire of name calling. 


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi David,

> Here's my take on how to do this more transparently: first have an
> engraver that does the basic chord analysis and writes one or several
> properties with the basic analysis results (like fundamental pitch and
> scale offsets).  Those properties are made part of text-interface.
> 
> Then have several markup commands producing output based on those
> properties.  Like German chord names, or a markup list with
> modifications and stuff like that.  And then you can basically create
> one fixed markup for each chord naming style and assign that to the
> "text" field of a ChordName.
> 
> Also it then becomes easy to put chord names into a TextScript

That all sounds great. If the engraver broke the chord components into the 
smallest possible bits (e.g., root, quality, third stack, alterations, bass or 
inversion), then the NameBuilder (or whatever) could format those however one 
pleased.

However, I’m also concerned that the current input syntax isn’t rich enough. 
For example, one can’t tell Lilypond “at run time" if  should be 
labelled as Bb/C or C7(sus2,sus4). [Note that, at this point, I don’t care what 
anyone’s preference for display of this chord is — I’m simply pointing out that 
I don’t know of a mechanism to force Lilypond to label the same set of notes 
two or more different ways.] So we should attack the input mode as well, to 
support the widest and most flexible possible usage.

Best regards,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Robert Schmaus]

,
> 
>> it involves the (fantastic) LilyJazz package which was created by Thorsten 
>> Hämmerle some time ago.
> 
> Why are the alterations in the chord names not LilyJazz?

Well, now that you mention it, they might well be. It's been quite some time 
since I worked on that. What I *am* sure of is that I defined all chord layouts 
myself - like the bracketed stacks, or should I use  Dø7 or rather Dmin7b5 for 
a half-diminished chord and so on. 

It is possible though that all tools for doing that are already present in 
LilyJazz ... I simply don't remember now.

Cheers, Robert 

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

This is smashing! Great job. 

The alignment of the chords, is it possible to push above the staff like 
traditional chords? The 8, is it part of a multi rest? 



> 18. jan. 2016 kl. 11.40 skrev Robert Schmaus :
> 
> 
> --
> Note beforehand: I'm sending this from a phone, and I can't control if the 
> attached picture is sent inline or not - hope you can see it, otherwise I'll 
> have to resend it later today. 
> --
> 
> Hi Carl-Henrik,
> 
> Fwiw, I write jazz sheets all the time, and I've trimmed Lilypond to produce 
> stuff like this:
> 
> 
> 
> So, Lilypond is quite able to produce those complex chords you mention. This 
> is definitely not out of the box though ... I've put quite some work into it. 
> But I guess it goes along the lines of what Kieren sent you earlier ...
> 
> The question if it is sensible to go that way is something else.
> 
> Best, Robert 
> 
> 
> 
> On 17 Jan 2016, at 20:30, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  > wrote:
> 
>> Sorry, thought the thread was referenced. 
>> 
>> I'm wondering if lilypond is able to notate complex chords, as discussed in 
>> the before mentioned thread. 
>> Examples as shown: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Den 17. jan. 2016 kl. 20.18 skrev Thomas Morley >> >:
>>> 
>>> 2016-01-17 19:55 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann >> >:
 Any news regarding this?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Well, what's "this"?
>>> LilyPond exists, yes. There is no common definiton of "JazzChords".
>>> So, no news. ;)
>>> Maybe you may want to be a little more specific?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Harm
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Johan Vromans]

On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 11:40:47 +0100
Robert Schmaus  wrote:

> Fwiw, I write jazz sheets all the time, and I've trimmed Lilypond to
> produce stuff like this:

Nice, very nice!
It's a shame the "8" won't match...

I've tried to obtain something like this some years ago, but never got as
far as your example. 

-- Johan

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Robert Schmaus]

Thanks! 
I can post the code for that if you're interested, I just can't promise I'll be 
able to do that tonight. And it involves the (fantastic) LilyJazz package which 
was created by Thorsten Hämmerle some time ago.
If can get a hold of that, and put it together with Kieren's suggestions, 
that's basically it - the rest is routine work ...

As for the 8 - this is actually a percent repeat counter that simply ticks off 
every n-th repeat for easier readability. You're right - I should set the 
"jazz-font" for it also. It's not a big deal, too ... 

The chords usually *are* above the staff lines - like here:



The chords of my first posting were from a solo passage (I sometimes engrave 
the solo passages separately for easier overview during soloing), and I prefer 
solo changes to be placed within the staff for compactness as well as clarity. 

Best, Robert 


__

The cure for a fallacious argument is a better argument, not the suppression of 
ideas.
-- Carl Sagan


> On 18 Jan 2016, at 12:16, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  wrote:
> 
> This is smashing! Great job. 
> 
> The alignment of the chords, is it possible to push above the staff like 
> traditional chords? The 8, is it part of a multi rest? 
> 
> 
> 
>> 18. jan. 2016 kl. 11.40 skrev Robert Schmaus :
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Note beforehand: I'm sending this from a phone, and I can't control if the 
>> attached picture is sent inline or not - hope you can see it, otherwise I'll 
>> have to resend it later today. 
>> --
>> 
>> Hi Carl-Henrik,
>> 
>> Fwiw, I write jazz sheets all the time, and I've trimmed Lilypond to produce 
>> stuff like this:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> So, Lilypond is quite able to produce those complex chords you mention. This 
>> is definitely not out of the box though ... I've put quite some work into 
>> it. But I guess it goes along the lines of what Kieren sent you earlier ...
>> 
>> The question if it is sensible to go that way is something else.
>> 
>> Best, Robert 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 17 Jan 2016, at 20:30, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sorry, thought the thread was referenced. 
>>> 
>>> I'm wondering if lilypond is able to notate complex chords, as discussed in 
>>> the before mentioned thread. 
>>> Examples as shown: 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 Den 17. jan. 2016 kl. 20.18 skrev Thomas Morley :
 
 2016-01-17 19:55 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann :
> Any news regarding this?
 
 
 
 Well, what's "this"?
 LilyPond exists, yes. There is no common definiton of "JazzChords".
 So, no news. ;)
 Maybe you may want to be a little more specific?
 
 Cheers,
 Harm
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Robert,

> it involves the (fantastic) LilyJazz package which was created by Thorsten 
> Hämmerle some time ago.

Why are the alterations in the chord names not LilyJazz?

> If can get a hold of that, and put it together with Kieren's suggestions, 
> that's basically it - the rest is routine work …

Not exactly… The input mode/syntax isn’t rich enough (IMO) to allow for 
complete flexibility.

> The chords of my first posting were from a solo passage (I sometimes engrave 
> the solo passages separately for easier overview during soloing), and I 
> prefer solo changes to be placed within the staff for compactness as well as 
> clarity.

I personally love the way that looks.

Thanks,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[timmcn]

> On Jan 18, 2016, at 1:44 AM, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> 18. jan. 2016 kl. 02.40 skrev tim...@bitstream.net:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 17, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> While i might agree with you to some extent this is also a practial matter: 
>>> 
>>> 1) Whether or not you call it maj or *triangle*, m or MI is indeed a matter 
>>> of culture and personal taste. But consider the following: A C7, a 
>>> dominant, might tell a performing musician lots but when dealing with 
>>> academic and analysis it is quite thin if the actual sounding timbre is a 
>>> C13(b9), also a dominant, but allowed for when performing certain styles. 
>>> What the composer/arranger chooses to do, is a different case than the 
>>> needs of the academic (and specific composer/arranger).
>> 
>> Perhaps.  Musicality and practicality often seem secondary in academic 
>> pursuits as it is the idea that seems primary, not the resultant. 13b9 
>> chords are common enough in jazz, though, although practically speaking in 
>> improvisation it is often more fruitful to think of them as a polychord- C7 
>> with A major triad superimposed in this case- as this offers more options.
> 
> While i agree on this way of thinking *practically* makes a lot of sense. But 
> you are talking about changing a whole culture of thinking. To sum up: 
> Stacked chords are useful for in some musical settings but it is not the 
> future as of yet as they do not display function.

True, if one is focusing on writing out functional harmony the use of 
polychords can obscure that to a degree.

> Although the ever singing chorus here on lilypond-user is that there is no 
> agreed apon conventions in chords, i disagree both as a musician and a 
> scholar. The way to notate jazz/pop chords are established thoroughly through 
> the "real book" series and others. 

As an American jazz musician- hmm, attempted jazz musician would be more 
accurate- I agree that the Real Book has become the de facto standard for most 
jazz musicians.  It’s been some 40 years that those books have been around now, 
several generations of musicians are used to them.  Although the Real Books are 
inconsistent in how complex chords are written out- some have the extensions 
written out horizontally, some are parenthesized, some are parenthesized and 
stacked, etc.

> Kieren is thankfully working on this and i hope the brains that code for 
> lilypond can bash heads together and at least give us a *working* solution 
> and stop bickering over personal preferences that only hinder the 
> development. 

I have had a cobbled-together Brandt-Roemer chord exceptions file modified from 
the pop-chords.ly file for a couple of years, Kieran’s is going to be much more 
comprehensive and rigorous than mine is and I am looking forward to it.  One 
advantage of the B-R system is that when I hand out lead sheets to other 
musician, no one ever asks what the chord symbols mean.

>>> 2) There is also the matter of spacing. Cmaj7 #5 b9 #11/F# is stealing a 
>>> whole system! That is insane (in the membrane!) and i stand by my statement 
>>> that the default output of lilypond is undesirable.
>> 
>> Which is why you can create chord exceptions to the default behavior.
>> 
>> Excessive definition of chords restricts the freedom of the musician- for 
>> jazz, maximizing freedom is more useful.
> 
> I see your point and I agree.

Between my quoted response and the subsequent one to Kieran I thought about 
intended purpose.  If you’re creating a chart to use on the bandstand it may 
look different than one being created for analytical or academic purposes.  The 
latter is intended to elucidate the concepts at work and the greater 
specificity of a C13b9 rather than a C7 is probably necessary; never having 
done academic music study I do not tend to think of this.  My apologies for not 
having considered this sooner in the discussion.

Tim



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

> 18. jan. 2016 kl. 02.40 skrev tim...@bitstream.net:
> 
>> 
>> On Jan 17, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> While i might agree with you to some extent this is also a practial matter: 
>> 
>> 1) Whether or not you call it maj or *triangle*, m or MI is indeed a matter 
>> of culture and personal taste. But consider the following: A C7, a dominant, 
>> might tell a performing musician lots but when dealing with academic and 
>> analysis it is quite thin if the actual sounding timbre is a C13(b9), also a 
>> dominant, but allowed for when performing certain styles. What the 
>> composer/arranger chooses to do, is a different case than the needs of the 
>> academic (and specific composer/arranger).
> 
> Perhaps.  Musicality and practicality often seem secondary in academic 
> pursuits as it is the idea that seems primary, not the resultant. 13b9 chords 
> are common enough in jazz, though, although practically speaking in 
> improvisation it is often more fruitful to think of them as a polychord- C7 
> with A major triad superimposed in this case- as this offers more options.

While i agree on this way of thinking *practically* makes a lot of sense. But 
you are talking about changing a whole culture of thinking. To sum up: Stacked 
chords are useful for in some musical settings but it is not the future as of 
yet as they do not display function.

Although the ever singing chorus here on lilypond-user is that there is no 
agreed apon conventions in chords, i disagree both as a musician and a scholar. 
The way to notate jazz/pop chords are established thoroughly through the "real 
book" series and others. 

Kieren is thankfully working on this and i hope the brains that code for 
lilypond can bash heads together and at least give us a *working* solution and 
stop bickering over personal preferences that only hinder the development. 

> 
>> 2) There is also the matter of spacing. Cmaj7 #5 b9 #11/F# is stealing a 
>> whole system! That is insane (in the membrane!) and i stand by my statement 
>> that the default output of lilypond is undesirable.
> 
> Which is why you can create chord exceptions to the default behavior.
> 
> Excessive definition of chords restricts the freedom of the musician- for 
> jazz, maximizing freedom is more useful.

I see your point and I agree.

> 
>> Both Sibelius and Finale have a comprehensive libraries of chords and while 
>> not to everybodys taste, it does pave the way for a good default. The people 
>> of Sib and Fin have done theire homework. Sibelius perhaps even more so 
>> regarding chords. Perhaps it is possible to look what have already been 
>> done? 
> 
> Their code is proprietary, unlike Lilypond, and it may be that one of those 
> applications would be more suitable for your needs.  Indeed, given the 
> expectations of the academic and publishing worlds it would probably be 
> required that you submit the piece as a Finale or Sibelius file in any event. 
>  Ideally Lilypond should be able to use a variety of chord rendering formats, 
> but given that it is developed largely by unpaid volunteers it may take a 
> while to get there.

I'm not talking about code, i'm talking about style. And by the looks of it 
Sibelius at least have by and large been inspired by B But as you said, 
predefined is not the way to go. Even so, look at what they have done and 
simply mimick the behaviour. "Great artists steal".  

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

A properly formatet complex chord stacks alterations in parenthesis. Lilyponds 
default is:

\version "2.19.35"

\header {
  tagline = ""
}

ChordNames = \chordmode {
  \set majorSevenSymbol = \markup { maj7 }
  d:maj7.5+.9-.11+
}

upper = \relative c'{
  \clef G
  < d fis ais cis ees gis >1
}

lower = \relative c {
  \clef F
  d1
}

\layout {
  \context {
\ChordNames
\override ChordName.font-family = #'roman
\override ChordName.font-size = #0
  }
}

This is undesirable.

> 17. jan. 2016 kl. 21.59 skrev Blöchl Bernhard 
> :
> 
> Am 17.01.2016 21:33, schrieb Carl-Henrik Buschmann:
> 
>> http://i.imgur.com/crR5239.png [3]
>> I have googled my ass off on how to get "jazz chords" properly
>> formated.
> 
> What is "properly" formated? Where is your wrong formated code example?
> 
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

There are a few musicologist, you'd be suprised how many, that comes from jazz 
or popular music. Yes, I'm one of them. As far as i can see this Brandt & 
Roemer thing is a work in progress. I'm thankfull somebody seems to be working 
on it! 

There is however much to be done before chords in Lilypond are mature enough to 
use for jazz chord notation. I'm crossing my fingers that a lilypond-programmer 
reads this and takes pity on us who needs this for our work.


> 17. jan. 2016 kl. 22.25 skrev Blöchl Bernhard 
> :
> 
> I follow this nonsense thread just for entertainement with wild references to 
> any-/something and found i. e
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-11/msg00950.html
> and
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-11/pdfsKndJHU0dl.pdf
> 
> Two questions:
> 1. Why is Cm69 (ly) = C6/9 (BR)? Where is the "MI" gone? Is it kind of
> implied? I don't see it.
> (I omit the second)
> Did you know, that the C6/9 Guitar Chord has alternate Names: Cmaj6/9, CM6/9, 
> CMAJ6/9 - where is the minor
> You might find that in google or in some serious jazz harmony books. If you 
> are serieous working in music - check it and think about.
> 
> Which one do you think is the correct one? Do you really think that serous 
> jazz musicians get skid whith such?
> 
> 
> 
> Am 17.01.2016 21:59, schrieb Blöchl Bernhard:
>> Am 17.01.2016 21:33, schrieb Carl-Henrik Buschmann:
>>> http://i.imgur.com/crR5239.png [3]
>>> I have googled my ass off on how to get "jazz chords" properly
>>> formated.
>> What is "properly" formated? Where is your wrong formated code example?
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Carl-Henrik,

> As far as i can see this Brandt & Roemer thing is a work in progress.

Indeed.

> I'm thankfull somebody seems to be working on it! 

You’re welcome.  =)

> There is however much to be done before chords in Lilypond are mature enough 
> to use for jazz chord notation.

I don’t think anybody argues that point.

> I'm crossing my fingers that a lilypond-programmer reads this and takes pity 
> on us who needs this for our work.

One of the reasons I’m developing the B stylesheet is that it is the most 
complete and logical *organization* of chords that I've ever found. (The actual 
*naming*, on the other hand… well…)

Once the file is complete — including all programming (Scheme functions, etc.) 
necessary to make the B stylesheet work as intended — and it passes some 
vetting/consensus process in the Lilypond community, I’m hoping it will become 
the template for a rapid proliferation of chord-naming stylesheets, which will 
naturally include more conventional/accepted naming schemes.

Best regards,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Blöchl Bernhard]

Well, trolls like fish i learnt.

Am 17.01.2016 21:12, schrieb Thomas Morley:

2016-01-17 20:30 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann
<chbuschm...@mac.com>:


Sorry, thought the thread was referenced.

I'm wondering if lilypond is able to notate complex chords, as
discussed in the before mentioned thread. 


I've still no clue which thread you mean.

It isn't referenced in any way. Please provide a link.
 


Examples as shown: 


I can't see any image. As others I prefer text-only messages, no
inline-images, no html etc.
Please attach them. I think this should be the default for a
mailinglist about coding.

I can look up your image at
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Re-Lilypond-and-Jazz-chords-td186007.html
[1]
but that's going on my nerves.

Nevertheless, some of the chord-symbols there are lilypond-default,
some not.

Use chord-exceptions for them.

-Harm

 


Den 17. jan. 2016 kl. 20.18 skrev Thomas Morley
<thomasmorle...@gmail.com>:

2016-01-17 19:55 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann
<chbuschm...@mac.com>:
Any news regarding this?

Well, what's "this"?
LilyPond exists, yes. There is no common definiton of "JazzChords".
So, no news. ;)
Maybe you may want to be a little more specific?

Cheers,
Harm




Links:
--
[1]
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Re-Lilypond-and-Jazz-chords-td186007.html

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Blöchl,

> 1. Why is Cm69 (ly) = C6/9 (BR)? Where is the "MI" gone? Is it kind of 
> implied? I don't see it.

If you followed the thread further, you’d see that it was an error: the “MI” 
is, of course, supposed to be there.
That error been fixed in my [private] copy, which I am continuing to develop 
with the intention of releasing publicly when it’s ready.

Regards,
Kieren.


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‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Tim,

> that is a matter of individual preferences.

Agreed.

> Cmaj7#4 is less trouble to read than Cmaj7(#4) on the bandstand in an 
> unfamiliar tune.

Disagreed.

> 90% of the extensions that are written on lead sheets are ignored anyway in 
> favor of what the musician’s ear tells him or her what to play.

Agreed.

> Composers should generally save themselves the bother.

If you mean composers (or, really, engravers) should save themselves the bother 
of writing chord names, I disagree.

If you mean there is a point of diminishing marginal utility on the number of 
“extras” that are useful in chord naming, I agree.
But then we are, to some extent, back to "individual preference” (cf. the top 
of your email).

Regards,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

While i might agree with you to some extent this is also a practial matter: 

1) Whether or not you call it maj or *triangle*, m or MI is indeed a matter of 
culture and personal taste. But consider the following: A C7, a dominant, might 
tell a performing musician lots but when dealing with academic and analysis it 
is quite thin if the actual sounding timbre is a C13(b9), also a dominant, but 
allowed for when performing certain styles. What the composer/arranger chooses 
to do, is a different case than the needs of the academic (and specific 
composer/arranger).

2) There is also the matter of spacing. Cmaj7 #5 b9 #11/F# is stealing a whole 
system! That is insane (in the membrane!) and i stand by my statement that the 
default output of lilypond is undesirable.

Both Sibelius and Finale have a comprehensive libraries of chords 
 and while not to everybodys taste, it does 
pave the way for a good default. The people of Sib and Fin have done theire 
homework. Sibelius perhaps even more so regarding chords. Perhaps it is 
possible to look what have already been done? 


> 17. jan. 2016 kl. 23.00 skrev Tim McNamara :
> 
> 
>> On Jan 17, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> A properly formatet complex chord stacks alterations in parenthesis.
> 
> Hemmm, that is a matter of individual preferences.  As a jazz musician I find 
> parentheses in chords add to the visual clutter and add no useful 
> information.  More characters add more confusion.  Cmaj7#4 is less trouble to 
> read than Cmaj7(#4) on the bandstand in an unfamiliar tune.
> 
> Of course 90% of the extensions that are written on lead sheets are ignored 
> anyway in favor of what the musician’s ear tells him or her what to play.  
> Composers should generally save themselves the bother.

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Carl-Henrik,

Here’s a start for you.

Hope this helps!
Kieren.

  SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.19.35"
\language "english"

chordFlat = \markup \concat { \hspace #0.1 \raise #0.5 \fontsize #-1 \flat 
\hspace #0.2 }
chordSharp = \markup \concat { \hspace #0.1 \raise #0.5 \fontsize #-1 \sharp 
\hspace #0.2 }

jazzChords-markups = {
  -\markup \concat { "7" "(" \raise #2 \fontsize #-5 
\center-column { \concat { \chordSharp "11" } \concat { \chordFlat "9" } 
\concat { \chordSharp "5" } } ")" }
}

jazzChords-add = #(append (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions 
jazzChords-markups #t) ignatzekExceptions)

\layout { \context { \Score chordNameExceptions = #jazzChords-add } }

chords-test = \chordmode {
  d1
  d1:m
  d1:7
  d1:7.5+.11+.9-
}

\score {
  <<
\new ChordNames \chords-test
\new Staff \chords-test
  >>
}

  SNIPPET ENDS


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Blöchl Bernhard]

I follow this nonsense thread just for entertainement with wild 
references to any-/something and found i. e

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-11/msg00950.html
and
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-11/pdfsKndJHU0dl.pdf

Two questions:
1. Why is Cm69 (ly) = C6/9 (BR)? Where is the "MI" gone? Is it kind of
implied? I don't see it.
(I omit the second)
Did you know, that the C6/9 Guitar Chord has alternate Names: Cmaj6/9, 
CM6/9, CMAJ6/9 - where is the minor
You might find that in google or in some serious jazz harmony books. If 
you are serieous working in music - check it and think about.


Which one do you think is the correct one? Do you really think that 
serous jazz musicians get skid whith such?




Am 17.01.2016 21:59, schrieb Blöchl Bernhard:

Am 17.01.2016 21:33, schrieb Carl-Henrik Buschmann:


http://i.imgur.com/crR5239.png [3]

I have googled my ass off on how to get "jazz chords" properly
formated.


What is "properly" formated? Where is your wrong formated code example?

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

Thank you.

This is indeed a good start! However. How to adjust the lenght of the 
parenthesis? As of now they only encapsule 1/3 of the stack. I havent the 
foggiest on how to make them "flexible". 


> 17. jan. 2016 kl. 22.25 skrev Kieren MacMillan 
> :
> 
> Hi Carl-Henrik,
> 
> Here’s a start for you.
> 
> Hope this helps!
> Kieren.
> 
>   SNIPPET BEGINS
> \version "2.19.35"
> \language "english"
> 
> chordFlat = \markup \concat { \hspace #0.1 \raise #0.5 \fontsize #-1 \flat 
> \hspace #0.2 }
> chordSharp = \markup \concat { \hspace #0.1 \raise #0.5 \fontsize #-1 \sharp 
> \hspace #0.2 }
> 
> jazzChords-markups = {
>  -\markup \concat { "7" "(" \raise #2 \fontsize #-5 
> \center-column { \concat { \chordSharp "11" } \concat { \chordFlat "9" } 
> \concat { \chordSharp "5" } } ")" }
> }
> 
> jazzChords-add = #(append (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions 
> jazzChords-markups #t) ignatzekExceptions)
> 
> \layout { \context { \Score chordNameExceptions = #jazzChords-add } }
> 
> chords-test = \chordmode {
>  d1
>  d1:m
>  d1:7
>  d1:7.5+.11+.9-
> }
> 
> \score {
>  <<
>\new ChordNames \chords-test
>\new Staff \chords-test
>>> 
> }
> 
>   SNIPPET ENDS
> 
> 
> Kieren MacMillan, composer
> ‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
> ‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info
> 


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Thomas Morley]

2016-01-17 19:55 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann :
> Any news regarding this?



Well, what's "this"?
LilyPond exists, yes. There is no common definiton of "JazzChords".
So, no news. ;)
Maybe you may want to be a little more specific?

Cheers,
  Harm

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Carl-Henrik,

> I'm wondering if lilypond is able to notate complex chords

Still not sure exactly what you mean… As far as I understand (and have used), 
Lilypond can notate any chord you want, given the correct custom chord naming. 
I’ve been building an include file around the Brandt system, and haven’t 
yet had a problem with any notation.

What exactly is Lilypond not doing for you?
(i.e., please include a Lilypond file which compiles, and explain what it does 
“incorrectly”)

Cheers,
KIeren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Carl-Henrik,

> I have googled my ass off on how to get "jazz chords" properly formated. The 
> lilypond manual isn't exactly being straight about the matter. I do know it 
> *should* be possible and i'm humbly asking for a hint at formating as shown 
> in the picture i linked/sendt.

Try this thread: 

Lots of good example code there, I [humbly] offer.

Hope this helps!
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Blöchl Bernhard]

Am 17.01.2016 21:33, schrieb Carl-Henrik Buschmann:


http://i.imgur.com/crR5239.png [3]

I have googled my ass off on how to get "jazz chords" properly
formated.


What is "properly" formated? Where is your wrong formated code example?

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Blöchl Bernhard]

his is undesirable.


Quite interesting! Good night.

Am 17.01.2016 22:28, schrieb Carl-Henrik Buschmann:

A properly formatet complex chord stacks alterations in parenthesis.
Lilyponds default is:

\version "2.19.35"

\header {
  tagline = ""
}

ChordNames = \chordmode {
  \set majorSevenSymbol = \markup { maj7 }
  d:maj7.5+.9-.11+
}

upper = \relative c'{
  \clef G
  < d fis ais cis ees gis >1
}

lower = \relative c {
  \clef F
  d1
}

\layout {
  \context {
\ChordNames
\override ChordName.font-family = #'roman
\override ChordName.font-size = #0
  }
}

This is undesirable.

17. jan. 2016 kl. 21.59 skrev Blöchl Bernhard 
:


Am 17.01.2016 21:33, schrieb Carl-Henrik Buschmann:


http://i.imgur.com/crR5239.png [3]
I have googled my ass off on how to get "jazz chords" properly
formated.


What is "properly" formated? Where is your wrong formated code 
example?


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

Any news regarding this?


Carl-Henrik

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl-Henrik Buschmann]

Harm,

This is the original thread (sorry about that one, really thought answering the 
original thread brought up the history):

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-07/msg00274.html 

Here is a imgur link to the image I referenced (Also, chill. I'm only asking 
for help. We are not mind readers, hard to know what you prefer or not.)

http://i.imgur.com/crR5239.png

I have googled my ass off on how to get "jazz chords" properly formated. The 
lilypond manual 
<http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/notation/chord-mode#extended-and-altered-chords>
 isn't exactly being straight about the matter. I do know it *should* be 
possible and i'm humbly asking for a hint at formating as shown in the picture 
i linked/sendt. It is hard procuring a minimal example when all i can do is 
produce a c:7.

> 17. jan. 2016 kl. 21.12 skrev Thomas Morley <thomasmorle...@gmail.com>:
> 
> 
> 
> 2016-01-17 20:30 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann <chbuschm...@mac.com 
> <mailto:chbuschm...@mac.com>>:
> Sorry, thought the thread was referenced. 
> 
> I'm wondering if lilypond is able to notate complex chords, as discussed in 
> the before mentioned thread. 
> 
> I've still no clue which thread you mean.
> It isn't referenced in any way. Please provide a link.
>  
> Examples as shown: 
> 
> I can't see any image. As others I prefer text-only messages, no 
> inline-images, no html etc.
> Please attach them. I think this should be the default for a mailinglist 
> about coding.
> 
> I can look up your image at
> http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Re-Lilypond-and-Jazz-chords-td186007.html
>  
> <http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Re-Lilypond-and-Jazz-chords-td186007.html>
> but that's going on my nerves.
> 
> Nevertheless, some of the chord-symbols there are lilypond-default, some not.
> Use chord-exceptions for them.
> 
> -Harm
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Den 17. jan. 2016 kl. 20.18 skrev Thomas Morley <thomasmorle...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:thomasmorle...@gmail.com>>:
>> 
>> 2016-01-17 19:55 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann <chbuschm...@mac.com 
>> <mailto:chbuschm...@mac.com>>:
>>> Any news regarding this?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Well, what's "this"?
>> LilyPond exists, yes. There is no common definiton of "JazzChords".
>> So, no news. ;)
>> Maybe you may want to be a little more specific?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Harm
> 
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

> On Jan 17, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  
> wrote:
> 
> A properly formatet complex chord stacks alterations in parenthesis.

Hemmm, that is a matter of individual preferences.  As a jazz musician I find 
parentheses in chords add to the visual clutter and add no useful information.  
More characters add more confusion.  Cmaj7#4 is less trouble to read than 
Cmaj7(#4) on the bandstand in an unfamiliar tune.

Of course 90% of the extensions that are written on lead sheets are ignored 
anyway in favor of what the musician’s ear tells him or her what to play.  
Composers should generally save themselves the bother.
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Thomas Morley]

2016-01-17 22:28 GMT+01:00 Carl-Henrik Buschmann :

Thanks for code and links!

> A properly formatet complex chord stacks alterations in parenthesis.

Well, I disagre - at least as a general verdict.

> Lilyponds default is
> [...] undesirable.

Ofcourse I disagree again, ;)
Though, there are so many opinions about that topic...

The main problem is that current LilyPond-default is very hard to
tweak, apart from doing exceptions as Kieren already demonstrated.

I once started rewriting chordnames. [1]
Finally it aimed at easy user-tweakable formatting.
I got distracted by other urgent lily-issues and real-life duties and
didn't continue.
Maybe, I'll get back to it once ...

Cheers,
  Harm

[1]
https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/4344/

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Harm,

> The main problem is that current LilyPond-default is very hard to tweak

+1^10
[sic]  ;)

> I once started rewriting chordnames. [1]
> Finally it aimed at easy user-tweakable formatting.
> Maybe, I'll get back to it once …

If you’re serious about doing it in the near future, please let me know!
I could definitely use someone like you on The Team (which, right now, seems to 
be Me).

Thanks,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Simon,

> Note the effect of sensible code formatting – it can’t be emphasised often 
> enough…

I actually had it that way in my example, but decided to put it on one line to 
save vertical space in the post.

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Simon Albrecht]

On 17.01.2016 22:35, Carl-Henrik Buschmann wrote:

Thank you.

This is indeed a good start! However. How to adjust the lenght of the parenthesis? As of 
now they only encapsule 1/3 of the stack. I havent the foggiest on how to make them 
"flexible".


You might have a look in the NR, section A.11 ‘Available markup 
commands’, or D ‘LilyPond command index’.

For some more hints see below…





17. jan. 2016 kl. 22.25 skrev Kieren MacMillan :

Hi Carl-Henrik,

Here’s a start for you.

Hope this helps!
Kieren.

  SNIPPET BEGINS
\version "2.19.35"
\language "english"

chordFlat = \markup \concat { \hspace #0.1 \raise #0.5 \fontsize #-1 \flat 
\hspace #0.2 }
chordSharp = \markup \concat { \hspace #0.1 \raise #0.5 \fontsize #-1 \sharp 
\hspace #0.2 }

jazzChords-markups = {
  -\markup \concat { "7" "(" \raise #2 \fontsize #-5 \center-column { \concat { \chordSharp 
"11" } \concat { \chordFlat "9" } \concat { \chordSharp "5" } } ")" }
}


How about:

jazzChords-markups = {
  -\markup
  \concat {
"7"
\parenthesize
\raise #2
\fontsize #-5
\center-column {
  \concat { \chordSharp "11" }
  \concat { \chordFlat "9" }
  \concat { \chordSharp "5" }
}
  }
}

Note the effect of sensible code formatting – it can’t be emphasised 
often enough…


Yours, Simon



jazzChords-add = #(append (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions 
jazzChords-markups #t) ignatzekExceptions)

\layout { \context { \Score chordNameExceptions = #jazzChords-add } }

chords-test = \chordmode {
  d1
  d1:m
  d1:7
  d1:7.5+.11+.9-
}

\score {
  <<
\new ChordNames \chords-test
\new Staff \chords-test
}

  SNIPPET ENDS


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[timmcn]

> On Jan 17, 2016, at 4:16 PM, Carl-Henrik Buschmann  
> wrote:
> 
> While i might agree with you to some extent this is also a practial matter: 
> 
> 1) Whether or not you call it maj or *triangle*, m or MI is indeed a matter 
> of culture and personal taste. But consider the following: A C7, a dominant, 
> might tell a performing musician lots but when dealing with academic and 
> analysis it is quite thin if the actual sounding timbre is a C13(b9), also a 
> dominant, but allowed for when performing certain styles. What the 
> composer/arranger chooses to do, is a different case than the needs of the 
> academic (and specific composer/arranger).

Perhaps.  Musicality and practicality often seem secondary in academic pursuits 
as it is the idea that seems primary, not the resultant. 13b9 chords are common 
enough in jazz, though, although practically speaking in improvisation it is 
often more fruitful to think of them as a polychord- C7 with A major triad 
superimposed in this case- as this offers more options.

> 2) There is also the matter of spacing. Cmaj7 #5 b9 #11/F# is stealing a 
> whole system! That is insane (in the membrane!) and i stand by my statement 
> that the default output of lilypond is undesirable.

Which is why you can create chord exceptions to the default behavior.

Excessive definition of chords restricts the freedom of the musician- for jazz, 
maximizing freedom is more useful.

> Both Sibelius and Finale have a comprehensive libraries of chords and while 
> not to everybodys taste, it does pave the way for a good default. The people 
> of Sib and Fin have done theire homework. Sibelius perhaps even more so 
> regarding chords. Perhaps it is possible to look what have already been done? 

Their code is proprietary, unlike Lilypond, and it may be that one of those 
applications would be more suitable for your needs.  Indeed, given the 
expectations of the academic and publishing worlds it would probably be 
required that you submit the piece as a Finale or Sibelius file in any event.  
Ideally Lilypond should be able to use a variety of chord rendering formats, 
but given that it is developed largely by unpaid volunteers it may take a while 
to get there.
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[timmcn]

> On Jan 17, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Kieren MacMillan  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
>> that is a matter of individual preferences.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
>> Cmaj7#4 is less trouble to read than Cmaj7(#4) on the bandstand in an 
>> unfamiliar tune.
> 
> Disagreed.
> 
>> 90% of the extensions that are written on lead sheets are ignored anyway in 
>> favor of what the musician’s ear tells him or her what to play.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
>> Composers should generally save themselves the bother.
> 
> If you mean composers (or, really, engravers) should save themselves the 
> bother of writing chord names, I disagree.
> 
> If you mean there is a point of diminishing marginal utility on the number of 
> “extras” that are useful in chord naming, I agree.

That is my point- at least in jazz performance.  The needs of academics may be 
different (although I would argue that it would often be simpler and more 
accurate to define many of the chords with lots of tensions and extensions as 
polychords rather than cobbling together a numerical stew of a tetrad with six 
modifiers following.  That said, I am not sure that Lilypond handles polychords 
gracefully either).

> But then we are, to some extent, back to "individual preference” (cf. the top 
> of your email).

Yep- and perhaps the context of intended use as well.  An doctoral candidate 
submitting an analysis of jazz performance or a theoretical composition is 
paddling a different boat than the jazz musician on stage.
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Tim,

> I am not sure that Lilypond handles polychords gracefully either

It doesn’t, as far as I can tell.
Improving that situation is part of my goal with my B stylesheet effort (as 
they explicitly consider polychords).

> An doctoral candidate submitting an analysis of jazz performance or a 
> theoretical composition is paddling a different boat than the jazz musician 
> on stage.

Definitely!
I’m hoping that, once I’m done with this chord-names project, both will be able 
to use Lilypond easily

Cheers,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Grammostola Rosea]

Tim McNamara wrote:


On Jul 22, 2009, at 11:12 PM, David Fedoruk wrote:

 In my discussion with my jazz professional, we looked at complex 
chords, in fact we deliberately looked for complex ones to find out 
how they were expressed. We found, quite amazingly that the more 
complex the chord got the more ambiguous its name became.


The other thing we noted is that frequently, the note which was noted 
in a complex chord name was part of the melody. Thus, naming it 
became irrelevant in the context of performing.


This is common in the Real Books and some other books have adopted the 
same thing.  The chord is really a Dmin7 but the transcriber turned it 
into a Dmin9 because the melody note was an E.  It;s not necessary to 
do this, but that's up to the person using LilyPond and not LilyPond 
itself.


Further from this note about seriously complex chords, an indication 
of c13th not only means that you add a thirteenth but alerts the 
player that some of the expected 7th and 9ths will likely be left 
out. As much as it is an indication of what note to play, it can also 
imply what not to play.


This is the musician's intuition.  As a guitarist, many of the 
voicings I play leave many notes out of the chord.  Routinely the 5th 
is omitted (even if flatted or augmented, since that's usually in the 
melody), sometimes the root (which the bassist has covered anyway), 
and often some of the intermediate voices.  It's not uncommon to just 
play the guide tones (3rd and 7th) plus a leading tone (9th, 11th, 13th).


You are right, the bass lead sheet is the origin of the indications 
for the keyboard player. In looking through much music, they are rare 
events (ususaly) occuring at cadence points where it was important 
that the keyboard and bass players knew more precisely what the other 
was playing. From my observations what they most frequently do is 
indicate the inversion of the named chord to be used. The only tune I 
found with used them for extended portions of a tune was Bill Evans 
Waltz for Debbie where it is a part of a specific modulation. But 
again it is simply pointing out the correct inversion of the chord 
from the bass part.


You're talking about slash chords here?| Dmin7  Dmin7/C |  Bb7  
A7  |  etc.  The purpose of those chords is usually to define the 
characteristic descending or ascending bass line.


One other custom I was told about was that unlike the usual custom of 
placing the key signature at the beginning of each line, the correct 
way for jazz musicians to write a score is to note the key signature 
and time signatures only at the beginning of a piece or where they 
change. The Sher books follow this custom. However this is not really 
a problem for lilypond because it can be more or less easily done 
with methods already in Lilypond.


I haven't figured out how to do that, yet (it's probably really 
simple).  It's typically done in jazz charts to avoid confusion when 
the song modulates to a new key.  If the song starts in G (1 #) and 
then modulates to F after four bars, the F# noted as part of the key 
signature on the next line can confuse the musician.  In many jazz 
songs (e.g., Joy Spring) the tonal center moves so many times that 
the idea of the song being in a key is just notional and only 
indicates the first bar or four.


The Sher publications I'm using are based themselves on sources that 
Lilypond has already noted, So it seems there is at least some 
general agreement that these sources are authentic and close to what 
is actually used.


In terms of accuracy, the Sher books are about the best jazz fake 
books available.  In terms of conventions in jazz notation, the old 
Real Books have become the de facto standard notation.


I will note one thing i observed when actaully taking a score to the 
piano is that the notation of em7 b5 told me more quickly which notes 
to change in the chord. When I came to a half dimished symbol i had 
to think through more steps to get to the right notes. I don't know 
if others have this experience, but it could answer the question of 
why its use began.


It's use began, I think, with jazz musicians who played 300 nights a 
year and for whom the meaning of these things was automatic as a 
result of repetition.  The idea was to speed up the mental process of 
reading unfamiliar tunes by using ideograms.  I can use them, but I 
too prefer Em7b5 to EØ as a notation.



How far is Thomas?

Regards,

\r


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jul 22, 2009, at 11:12 PM, David Fedoruk wrote:

 In my discussion with my jazz professional, we looked at complex  
chords, in fact we deliberately looked for complex ones to find out  
how they were expressed. We found, quite amazingly that the more  
complex the chord got the more ambiguous its name became.


The other thing we noted is that frequently, the note which was  
noted in a complex chord name was part of the melody. Thus, naming  
it became irrelevant in the context of performing.


This is common in the Real Books and some other books have adopted  
the same thing.  The chord is really a Dmin7 but the transcriber  
turned it into a Dmin9 because the melody note was an E.  It;s not  
necessary to do this, but that's up to the person using LilyPond and  
not LilyPond itself.


Further from this note about seriously complex chords, an  
indication of c13th not only means that you add a thirteenth but  
alerts the player that some of the expected 7th and 9ths will  
likely be left out. As much as it is an indication of what note to  
play, it can also imply what not to play.


This is the musician's intuition.  As a guitarist, many of the  
voicings I play leave many notes out of the chord.  Routinely the 5th  
is omitted (even if flatted or augmented, since that's usually in the  
melody), sometimes the root (which the bassist has covered anyway),  
and often some of the intermediate voices.  It's not uncommon to just  
play the guide tones (3rd and 7th) plus a leading tone (9th, 11th,  
13th).


You are right, the bass lead sheet is the origin of the indications  
for the keyboard player. In looking through much music, they are  
rare events (ususaly) occuring at cadence points where it was  
important that the keyboard and bass players knew more precisely  
what the other was playing. From my observations what they most  
frequently do is indicate the inversion of the named chord to be  
used. The only tune I found with used them for extended portions of  
a tune was Bill Evans Waltz for Debbie where it is a part of a  
specific modulation. But again it is simply pointing out the  
correct inversion of the chord from the bass part.


You're talking about slash chords here?| Dmin7  Dmin7/C |  Bb7   
A7  |  etc.  The purpose of those chords is usually to define the  
characteristic descending or ascending bass line.


One other custom I was told about was that unlike the usual custom  
of placing the key signature at the beginning of each line, the  
correct way for jazz musicians to write a score is to note the key  
signature and time signatures only at the beginning of a piece or  
where they change. The Sher books follow this custom. However this  
is not really a problem for lilypond because it can be more or less  
easily done with methods already in Lilypond.


I haven't figured out how to do that, yet (it's probably really  
simple).  It's typically done in jazz charts to avoid confusion when  
the song modulates to a new key.  If the song starts in G (1 #) and  
then modulates to F after four bars, the F# noted as part of the key  
signature on the next line can confuse the musician.  In many jazz  
songs (e.g., Joy Spring) the tonal center moves so many times that  
the idea of the song being in a key is just notional and only  
indicates the first bar or four.


The Sher publications I'm using are based themselves on sources  
that Lilypond has already noted, So it seems there is at least some  
general agreement that these sources are authentic and close to  
what is actually used.


In terms of accuracy, the Sher books are about the best jazz fake  
books available.  In terms of conventions in jazz notation, the old  
Real Books have become the de facto standard notation.


I will note one thing i observed when actaully taking a score to  
the piano is that the notation of em7 b5 told me more quickly which  
notes to change in the chord. When I came to a half dimished symbol  
i had to think through more steps to get to the right notes. I  
don't know if others have this experience, but it could answer the  
question of why its use began.


It's use began, I think, with jazz musicians who played 300 nights a  
year and for whom the meaning of these things was automatic as a  
result of repetition.  The idea was to speed up the mental process of  
reading unfamiliar tunes by using ideograms.  I can use them, but I  
too prefer Em7b5 to EØ as a notation.





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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[David Fedoruk]

 In my discussion with my jazz professional, we looked at complex chords, in
fact we deliberately looked for complex ones to find out how they were
expressed. We found, quite amazingly that the more complex the chord got the
more ambiguous its name became.

The other thing we noted is that frequently, the note which was noted in a
complex chord name was part of the melody. Thus, naming it became irrelevant
in the context of performing. Begin the Beguine is a good example. The
turn is essentially repetitions of the same phrase over and over again
varied slightly each time. Around bar 60, part of the melody is embellished
so that the d minor 7th chord flattens the 5th (by means of the melody),
then goes on to stretch the chord even further until you have (implied by
the melody again) a chord that has a diminished triad on the bottom, the
middle is a minor chord then a major 7th is added to that. After that, Cole
Porter's melody line descends in whats alsmost a complete whole tone scale.
However, the Sher Real Standards Book only notes the dm7th chord. Good
musicians can find their way without getting overly detailed. As we found
out, the more complex chords were almost always made complex by melodic
means. Attempting to note all the detailed complexity destroyed the
intention of what was mean to be a kind of short hand. It also cluttered the
score making it harder to sight read rather than easier.

Further from this note about seriously complex chords, an indication of
c13th not only means that you add a thirteenth but alerts the player that
some of the expected 7th and 9ths will likely be left out. As much as it is
an indication of what note to play, it can also imply what not to play.

You are right, the bass lead sheet is the origin of the indications for the
keyboard player. In looking through much music, they are rare events
(ususaly) occuring at cadence points where it was important that the
keyboard and bass players knew more precisely what the other was playing.
From my observations what they most frequently do is indicate the inversion
of the named chord to be used. The only tune I found with used them for
extended portions of a tune was Bill Evans Waltz for Debbie where it is a
part of a specific modulation. But again it is simply pointing out the
correct inversion of the chord from the bass part.

One other custom I was told about was that unlike the usual custom of
placing the key signature at the beginning of each line, the correct way for
jazz musicians to write a score is to note the key signature and time
signatures only at the beginning of a piece or where they change. The Sher
books follow this custom. However this is not really a problem for lilypond
because it can be more or less easily done with methods already in Lilypond.

The Sher publications I'm using are based themselves on sources that
Lilypond has already noted, So it seems there is at least some general
agreement that these sources are authentic and close to what is actually
used.

I will note one thing i observed when actaully taking a score to the piano
is that the notation of em7 b5 told me more quickly which notes to change in
the chord. When I came to a half dimished symbol i had to think through more
steps to get to the right notes. I don't know if others have this
experience, but it could answer the question of why its use began.

I think all that is left to be done here is see what the programmers come up
with and give it a try. Beyond this is a job for the musicology crowd.

cheers,
davidf
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[David Fedoruk]

Hi:

I did, as I mentioned earlier, visit my local music store and looked at
their selection of fake books.  I found what was the first legally published
one in its new format. I was dissa pointed. Although it was as nicely
typeset as the New Rea Book  from Shur Music, there was no explanation of
what their chords meant. There was simply an index of tunes along with
composition and copyright credits. The notes themselves looked as if they
had been typset as any music book wouldl have been. The chord indications,
howver, looked as if they had been manually entered. So I could see where
any standard way of entering chord names slightly changed from time to timne
and from context to context.

I am impressed with The New Reall  Book series from Sher because of the
way it is documented and the way they have gone about making sure each tune
is following a real standard way of playin the changes. I own some of the
recordings they have  consulted so I have checked against their source.
They've had to make some decisions of their own on a standard way of
notating this since they actually send this to print. LIlypond doesn't have
to make those choices, merely enable us to express the notes the way we or
the composer/arranger intended.


The notation that I was mainly concerned with was how to enter a bass note
with the chord indication. I must say, I was shocked. I was both right and
wrong in my assertions that the bass note was indicated under the chord
name.

The bass note was under  the chord name, but with a slash not a straight
line as I had stated. So, you can see how I was right and wrong. The slash
with the chord name under the chord as they indicate in that publication
would conform to what I have known to be correct in the past.

I think now, that the chord along with the intended bass note belong
together as an element or object in themselves. Alterations of the chord are
a second element or object beside the chord name. These do not happen
frequently, but when they do, they are important. Mostly they indicate an
inversion of the chord named. These seem to occur most frequently at cadence
points. An example occurs in the last bars of All the Things You Are where
there is a progression with a step-wise bass pattern moving from a firIst
inversion of the named chord and ending on the root position. In some cases
there are going to be chord indications on each beat. Collisions willl be
inevitable. It seems the slash with the bass note close under the chord name
made this easier to read.

I gather the slash would have naturally happend when copyists wrote these
charts out by hand. Mostly being right handed the slant would naturally
occur. What I saw in that publiation was for the most part clear and
readable.

I won't argue for or against any one way at this point, just for clarity and
compactness. When I get a chance, I will call my Jazz musician friends and
see how they expect to see it written. We have a major jazz festival in
progress here so everyone is seriously busy. (There was a very good trumpet
player int he store trying out instruments and having a long discussion with
the sales person about lacquer and how thick it is and what it does  to the
sound!--- I know, seriously off topic).

Lilypond should not seek to make a new method of entering this type of
notation, it shoud simply enable copyists to make their music look the way
they or the composer intended and to do it in a way that makes it easy for
performing musicians to read. Am I  makeing sense here?

cheers,
davidf



-- 
David Fedoruk
B.Mus. UBC,1986
Certificate in Internet Systems Administration, UBC, 2003


http://recordjackethistorian.wordpress.com
Music is enough for one's life time, but one life time is not enough for
music Sergei Rachmaninov
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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jul 15, 2009, at 8:42 PM, David Fedoruk wrote:

I did, as I mentioned earlier, visit my local music store and  
looked at their selection of fake books.  I found what was the  
first legally published one in its new format. I was dissa pointed.


That's not very specific.  By chance were you looking at the Hal  
Leonard versions of the Real Books (6th Edition, Book II 2nd edition,  
Book III)?


The original Real Books were hand written by an unidentified person  
allegedly affiliated with the Berklee school of music in Boston; the  
most commonly suggested person was a well-known professional jazz  
bassist who wrote the chords out as he and his colleagues preferred.   
For most jazz musicians, the original Real Books are the de facto  
standard (although they are not completely internally consistent).   
The original books contained a number of errors and a number of  
performance-specific transcriptions of songs.  Even very famous songs  
in the Real Book like Four contain errors (which have become  
canonized by being played that way for over 30 years).  The Hal  
Leonard Real Books are more accurate- or less performance-specific  
than the original Real Books.


I am impressed with The New Reall  Book series from Sher because  
of the way it is documented and the way they have gone about making  
sure each tune is following a real standard way of playin the changes.


FWIW the original Real Books had a page of common chord voicings in  
note form for reference.  But jazz musicians know what a Ebmin7b5 or  
Ebø means, for example, and there is no need to provide documentation  
of this.  Students may need this, but they should get it elsewhere  
than from a book of tunes.  Mark Levine's textbook on jazz harmony is  
a great resource and one every jazz student should work through.   
Fake books are not textbooks, they are intended for bandstand use by  
professionals.


FWIW the Sher books are IMHO the best and most accurate of the  
various fake books.  They should be the standard and not the Real  
Books.  Sher made a point of checking the chords for accuracy far  
above and beyond the original Real Books (for example, compare  
Here's That Rainy Day, in which the original Real Book chords bear  
little resemblance to the proper chords of the song).  However, the  
original Real Book (vol. 1) is simply The Book as in is that tune  
in the book?  Bandleaders will frequently call songs by page number  
rather than title (because the Real Book is rather, umm, flexible as  
to its interpretation of alphabetization).


The notation that I was mainly concerned with was how to enter a  
bass note with the chord indication. I must say, I was shocked. I  
was both right and wrong in my assertions that the bass note was  
indicated under the chord name.


The bass note was under  the chord name, but with a slash not a  
straight line as I had stated. So, you can see how I was right and  
wrong. The slash with the chord name under the chord as they  
indicate in that publication would conform to what I have known to  
be correct in the past.


Normally the form for displaying a chord with a specific bass note is  
a diagonal slash:  Gmaj7/A for example.  Polychords (two triads  
stacked) are sometimes written as two chordnames arranged vertically  
with a short horizontal line separating them, but you'll find none of  
those in the Real Books IIRC:


Ebmin
__

Fmin

I think now, that the chord along with the intended bass note  
belong together as an element or object in themselves. Alterations  
of the chord are a second element or object beside the chord name.  
These do not happen frequently, but when they do, they are  
important. Mostly they indicate an inversion of the chord named.  
These seem to occur most frequently at cadence points. An example  
occurs in the last bars of All the Things You Are where there is  
a progression with a step-wise bass pattern moving from a first  
inversion of the named chord and ending on the root position. In  
some cases there are going to be chord indications on each beat.  
Collisions willl be inevitable. It seems the slash with the bass  
note close under the chord name made this easier to read.


Slash chords are usually written to specify a voicing to a  
keyboardist or guitarist, often to maintain a specific movement in  
the bass under the harmony:


   |  Dmin7  Dmin7/C  |   Bb7  A7  |  Dmaj7|

for example.  It's a simple way to write out the motion and is  
instantly readable.


I gather the slash would have naturally happend when copyists wrote  
these charts out by hand. Mostly being right handed the slant would  
naturally occur. What I saw in that publiation was for the most  
part clear and readable.


Right, it's intended to be instantly readable by a musician playing  
the song for the first time on the bandstand.


I won't argue for or against any one way at this point, just for  
clarity and compactness.


Those are the key things.

Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Patrick Horgan]

David Fedoruk wrote:

  The original BerkLee Real Fake book is no
longer available, nor are some of the others. These fake books have to
have thousands of clearances to be ablel to put these books together as
they are and be able to be legally sold.
  

Ironically, their The Real Book was a bootleg done by two
students and that's why it's hard to get--nevertheless it's on
thousands of music stands all over the world and you can still find
bootleg editions of it for sale under the counter of hipper music
stores.  It was ground breaking because unlike the official fake books
of the day they attempted to document the real changes being
played by real jazz artists.  Hal Leonard has re-released it as a sixth
edition (to follow the five bootleg editions) that is mostly the same,
only replacing the songs that he couldn't get publishing rights to (no
Frank Zappa sigh), and fixing some problems in the bootleg ones.  If
you get it I recommend the mini editions (in volume I, II, and
three;).  They're just as readable, comb binding to lay flat on a music
stand, and fit in a gig bag better.

Patrick






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Lilypond and Jazz chords

[David Fedoruk]

-- Forwarded message --
From: David Fedoruk david.fedo...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords
To: Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu


Hello:

I've seen a number of people talking about the right way to name chords
used in jazz. The problem is that there is no one right way currently.

Jazz chords come under the classification of performance practice, passed
down from teacher to student and from musican to musician over the decades.
It is only an approxamation of what chords are actually played.

You can make all the methods and naming schemes you want but in the end,
what counts is what jazz musicans themselves are using.

My breif encounters with one person currenty working in the business with a
piano jazz trio has told me that he has problems with almost all the current
schemes.

The problems all have to do with cllarity and readability. Chord symbols
which stretch out horizontally are aproblem because when there are multiple
chord changes per bar or changes per beat, it is all but impossible to read
beause of the collisions.

The closest to readabilty from the scores or publications I brought with me
that day was the ones called The New Real Book. IT is  continuing series
of fake books with tunes that are well researched as to which chords are
actuallyused. Often the arrangements are ones which the best jazz musicans
themselves used.

The system these books use is based upon Standard chord System Notation by
Brandt and Roemer.  The Real series are all well documented  in the front of
the book with charts and explanations.

However my jazz musican still had quibbles because he thought that the
interval alterations should be in a column right beside the chord name. Also
that any bass notes should be written as a staight line under the chord
name.

That said, it is his opinion, it may carry more weight  because he is
actually a playing musician.

Remember also that these chord symbols were originally not typeset, but were
always hand written into scores by the arrangers. They had their own
shorthand.

Another example is Bill Evans PeriScope which he scribbled on a small menu
from the Village Vanguard.

Perhaps the most we can hope for is a system which is easy enough to
manipulate at our level that we can make them look as we wish them to look.

As a pianist who sometimes has to read these lead sheets, my impressions
whenI'm at the keyboard are vastly different from when I am simply reading
the score. em7flat5 writtin with the flat symbol means more to me when I'nm
att the keyboard than a circle with a slash through it. I actually think
about only the note I have to alter and not the whole chord. In many cases
its just a move of a semitone.

So, my  opinion on how these chords should be written has changed as I've
had to use them at my instrument. My jazzz musician with the piano jazz trio
had never seen the triangle symbol used at all. He said he wouldn't have a
clue what to play if he saw that.

We aren't dealing with something for which we have hundreds of years of
written and printed scores from which to figure out the Right way ... we
have only what musicians are doing currently.

The original BerkLee Real Fake book is no longer available, nor are some of
the others. These fake books have to have thousands of clearances to be
ablel to put these books together as they are and be able to be legally
sold.


Since Jazz is actually now taught in some colleges and universities that may
be a source of information. I think that today I willl visit my local music
store and see how manyh different chord symbol systems I can find.

One comment about the bass notes indicated under the chord name.. apparently
it has implications for others who would see that as ann indication of
polytonal music.  I hadn't heard of that. However, after I've spent a few
hours looking through the books I have at home the one thing I did ntoivce
was that I  had trouble figuring out which was the chord and which was the
bass note. Perhaps a soloution is to make that bass note indication smaller
than the main chord and still bold it, like the main chord is now. That
would make it distiguishable from  the chord name and also keep it as
distinct from all the other alterations.

Several tunes I found had three altered base nsotes in a row. After playing
the tune,, I understood why those notes were indicated, they were really
necessary, but they cluttered the score far to much, They could have been
made clearer than they were. If I had to sight read that score it would
definitely throw me off.

The thing I've come to understand about this problem is that there just
isn't a single right answer. There are many systems and Lilypond cannot
impliment them all. I think the best solution is to impliment a scheme by
which we can tweak the Lilypond system to look and work the way we need it
to look.

I'll probably think of more things to say but I think I've said enough for
now. My

Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[kztone]

Hi,
I've seen a number of people talking about the right way to name 
chords used in jazz. The problem is that there is no one right way 
currently.

I agree.
However my jazz musican still had quibbles because he thought that the 
interval alterations should be in a column right beside the chord 
name. Also that any bass notes should be written as a staight line 
under the chord name.

If you write it in this way, I might interpret it as a poly chord.
So, my  opinion on how these chords should be written has changed as 
I've had to use them at my instrument. My jazzz musician with the 
piano jazz trio had never seen the triangle symbol used at all. He 
said he wouldn't have a clue what to play if he saw that.
I think most of experience musicians could guess what the triangle means 
from chord progression or theme

even if they didn't know.

Personally I don't like the triangle symbol but looks to me  many people 
who write sheets
by hand tend to use the triangle symbol. 

Of course, supporting all major chord notation systems would be nice but 
I guess that's too hard.
( I have never used the commercial notation software. What do they 
support? )


Following the most popular fake book sounds reasonable to me.
The Real Book by Hal Leonard is popular around me, btw.

- kzt










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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Grammostola Rosea]

Carl D. Sorensen wrote:


On 6/23/09 5:19 PM, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote:

  

On Jun 23, 2009, at 12:24 PM, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:



On 6/23/09 9:16 AM, Grammostola Rosea
rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote:

  

Tim McNamara wrote:


On Jun 15, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:

  

Wol et al:



Would it be reasonable to separate the functions of putting notes on
the staff and chord names above the staff, and let the user spell
out
the chord names separately from the notes on the staff?  Doing so
might really simplify this discussion and result in better
control of
the final output.
  

To me (but I'm not a real experienced jazz musician or lilypond
user) I
agree with this comment.
Keep things simple!?


But this facility
a) doesn't exist in LilyPond
b) would require changes to the parser, and
c) has nobody who is willing to pursue doing it.
  

I think I may have written my comment poorly.  What I meant was
having LilyPond *not* parse c e g b into a Cmaj7 chord name above
the staff at all.  The parser is just going to run into trouble
trying to interpret something like e c e ges bes d as C9b5/E
because it can't read the intent of the user, only the notes in the
bracket about which it can only make its best guess.  It would
probably come up with Em7b5sus4 or something which is not the same
thing in terms of musical intent, and musical intent is what the
musician playing the piece wants to know.



I think I understood your intent.  The problem is that the *only* way we
have to input chords is in formats that enter notes (either e c' e ges bes
d or \chordmode {c:9.5-/e}).  There is *no* facility in LilyPond for
entering chords as text.

The parsing of c:9.5-/e converts that string into a set of pitches, along
with a bass and an inversion (at least I think it does; I haven't reviewed
it carefully for a while, and when I did review it I wasn't as familiar with
LilyPond as I am now).

The project that Thomas is working on is making sure that when the output of
\chordmode{c:9.5-/e} is passed to the chordnames context, it will give bag
c9b5/E in the appropriate format.



  

I would recommend requiring the user to write the chord names out in
a text entry format (e.g., c1:9.5-/e or something like that) *if*
they want chord names above the staff and not parsing note entry to
get chord names (if indeed LilyPond can do this at all, I've never
looked into it).  This makes the most sense to me (and I hope my
intent is clearer).





Right now, the ChordNames context works much better with chords entered in
\chordmode, because it knows the root and the inversion, rather than having
to try to guess the chord.

I suspect that there won't be a lot of effort right now trying to deal with
inversions or added basses, but that may come in the future.

In my opinion, the biggest problem we currently have is that we don't always
get good chord names out of \chordmode chords.  But I think Thomas will have
that fixed shortly

  

How far is this guys?

\r


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Grammostola Rosea]

Tim McNamara wrote:


On Jun 15, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:


Wol et al:

Let's take the notes C, Eb, F, Ab. Which chord is that? What's the 
root?
You can easily go from the name to the notes, but not the other way 
round.


We *could* parse it from the first note, i.e. in relative mode

F C Eb Ab

and

Ab C, Eb F

would display as the same chord (close harmony), but generate two 
different chord names (e.g., Fmin7 and Ab6, respectively) based on 
the first-chord-pitch-is-root system.


Not sure if it's enforceable, but it's one way of getting the cake 
and eating it too.  =)


Unless you want Ab6/Eb from  Eb Ab C F .  The problem here, of 
course, is that human interpretation is much more flexible and is able 
to take intent into account, whereas machine algorithms are challenged 
by this sort of thing and typically fall short.  Also, if the voicing 
leaves out the 5th (common in jazz) then what does that do to the 
ability to parse the chord into chord names?


How many users are wanting to write out chord entries by note ( c e g 
b2 b d fis a2 d fis a c2 etc. ) into .ly files and have LilyPond 
parse them into chord names above the staff?  I don't do that- I am 
just writing out Real Book-stye lead sheets and use the chord naming 
method ( c2:maj7 b2:m7 d2:7 )-  so I have no idea how usual this is.  
Yes, that looks like a very sophisticated function, difficult to program 
it right (?) and I don't know if people use it.. (the chords are already 
played by midi right?)

How does apps like Sibelius this? Do they have such a function?
Would it be reasonable to separate the functions of putting notes on 
the staff and chord names above the staff, and let the user spell out 
the chord names separately from the notes on the staff?  Doing so 
might really simplify this discussion and result in better control of 
the final output.
To me (but I'm not a real experienced jazz musician or lilypond user) I 
agree with this comment.

Keep things simple!?

\r



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/23/09 9:16 AM, Grammostola Rosea rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote:

 Tim McNamara wrote:
 
 On Jun 15, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
 
 Wol et al:
 
 Would it be reasonable to separate the functions of putting notes on
 the staff and chord names above the staff, and let the user spell out
 the chord names separately from the notes on the staff?  Doing so
 might really simplify this discussion and result in better control of
 the final output.
 To me (but I'm not a real experienced jazz musician or lilypond user) I
 agree with this comment.
 Keep things simple!?

But this facility
a) doesn't exist in LilyPond
b) would require changes to the parser, and
c) has nobody who is willing to pursue doing it.

So, although it may seem simple to the user (things usually seem simple
when they are sketched out without full details), implementing this is
not simple at all.

The simple approach requires both notes (which are transposable) and
modifiers (which are not).

We currently have what I think will be a really good chord naming facility
being put together by Thomas; I expect it to be part of the development
version in about 10 days.

Carl



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 23, 2009, at 12:24 PM, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:

On 6/23/09 9:16 AM, Grammostola Rosea  
rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote:



Tim McNamara wrote:


On Jun 15, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:


Wol et al:


Would it be reasonable to separate the functions of putting notes on
the staff and chord names above the staff, and let the user spell  
out

the chord names separately from the notes on the staff?  Doing so
might really simplify this discussion and result in better  
control of

the final output.
To me (but I'm not a real experienced jazz musician or lilypond  
user) I

agree with this comment.
Keep things simple!?


But this facility
a) doesn't exist in LilyPond
b) would require changes to the parser, and
c) has nobody who is willing to pursue doing it.


I think I may have written my comment poorly.  What I meant was  
having LilyPond *not* parse c e g b into a Cmaj7 chord name above  
the staff at all.  The parser is just going to run into trouble  
trying to interpret something like e c e ges bes d as C9b5/E  
because it can't read the intent of the user, only the notes in the  
bracket about which it can only make its best guess.  It would  
probably come up with Em7b5sus4 or something which is not the same  
thing in terms of musical intent, and musical intent is what the  
musician playing the piece wants to know.


I would recommend requiring the user to write the chord names out in  
a text entry format (e.g., c1:9.5-/e or something like that) *if*  
they want chord names above the staff and not parsing note entry to  
get chord names (if indeed LilyPond can do this at all, I've never  
looked into it).  This makes the most sense to me (and I hope my  
intent is clearer).





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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/23/09 5:19 PM, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote:

 
 
 On Jun 23, 2009, at 12:24 PM, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:
 
 On 6/23/09 9:16 AM, Grammostola Rosea
 rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Tim McNamara wrote:
 
 On Jun 15, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:
 
 Wol et al:
 
 Would it be reasonable to separate the functions of putting notes on
 the staff and chord names above the staff, and let the user spell
 out
 the chord names separately from the notes on the staff?  Doing so
 might really simplify this discussion and result in better
 control of
 the final output.
 To me (but I'm not a real experienced jazz musician or lilypond
 user) I
 agree with this comment.
 Keep things simple!?
 
 But this facility
 a) doesn't exist in LilyPond
 b) would require changes to the parser, and
 c) has nobody who is willing to pursue doing it.
 
 I think I may have written my comment poorly.  What I meant was
 having LilyPond *not* parse c e g b into a Cmaj7 chord name above
 the staff at all.  The parser is just going to run into trouble
 trying to interpret something like e c e ges bes d as C9b5/E
 because it can't read the intent of the user, only the notes in the
 bracket about which it can only make its best guess.  It would
 probably come up with Em7b5sus4 or something which is not the same
 thing in terms of musical intent, and musical intent is what the
 musician playing the piece wants to know.

I think I understood your intent.  The problem is that the *only* way we
have to input chords is in formats that enter notes (either e c' e ges bes
d or \chordmode {c:9.5-/e}).  There is *no* facility in LilyPond for
entering chords as text.

The parsing of c:9.5-/e converts that string into a set of pitches, along
with a bass and an inversion (at least I think it does; I haven't reviewed
it carefully for a while, and when I did review it I wasn't as familiar with
LilyPond as I am now).

The project that Thomas is working on is making sure that when the output of
\chordmode{c:9.5-/e} is passed to the chordnames context, it will give bag
c9b5/E in the appropriate format.



 
 I would recommend requiring the user to write the chord names out in
 a text entry format (e.g., c1:9.5-/e or something like that) *if*
 they want chord names above the staff and not parsing note entry to
 get chord names (if indeed LilyPond can do this at all, I've never
 looked into it).  This makes the most sense to me (and I hope my
 intent is clearer).
 
 

Right now, the ChordNames context works much better with chords entered in
\chordmode, because it knows the root and the inversion, rather than having
to try to guess the chord.

I suspect that there won't be a lot of effort right now trying to deal with
inversions or added basses, but that may come in the future.

In my opinion, the biggest problem we currently have is that we don't always
get good chord names out of \chordmode chords.  But I think Thomas will have
that fixed shortly

Thanks,

Carl

 
 
 



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 23, 2009, at 11:36 PM, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:


On 6/23/09 5:19 PM, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote:




On Jun 23, 2009, at 12:24 PM, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:


On 6/23/09 9:16 AM, Grammostola Rosea
rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote:


Tim McNamara wrote:


On Jun 15, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:


Wol et al:

Would it be reasonable to separate the functions of putting  
notes on

the staff and chord names above the staff, and let the user spell
out
the chord names separately from the notes on the staff?  Doing so
might really simplify this discussion and result in better
control of
the final output.

To me (but I'm not a real experienced jazz musician or lilypond
user) I
agree with this comment.
Keep things simple!?


But this facility
a) doesn't exist in LilyPond
b) would require changes to the parser, and
c) has nobody who is willing to pursue doing it.


I think I may have written my comment poorly.  What I meant was
having LilyPond *not* parse c e g b into a Cmaj7 chord name above
the staff at all.  The parser is just going to run into trouble
trying to interpret something like e c e ges bes d as C9b5/E
because it can't read the intent of the user, only the notes in the
bracket about which it can only make its best guess.  It would
probably come up with Em7b5sus4 or something which is not the same
thing in terms of musical intent, and musical intent is what the
musician playing the piece wants to know.


I think I understood your intent.  The problem is that the *only*  
way we
have to input chords is in formats that enter notes (either e c' e  
ges bes

d or \chordmode {c:9.5-/e}).  There is *no* facility in LilyPond for
entering chords as text.


OK, there's still some poor phrasing on my part since I consider  
using \chordmode as entering chord names as text (e.g., not notes).   
Sorry for any confusion.


The parsing of c:9.5-/e converts that string into a set of pitches,  
along
with a bass and an inversion (at least I think it does; I haven't  
reviewed
it carefully for a while, and when I did review it I wasn't as  
familiar with

LilyPond as I am now).

The project that Thomas is working on is making sure that when the  
output of
\chordmode{c:9.5-/e} is passed to the chordnames context, it will  
give bag

c9b5/E in the appropriate format.


Right, currently many of us are using exception files to achieve this.


I would recommend requiring the user to write the chord names out in
a text entry format (e.g., c1:9.5-/e or something like that) *if*
they want chord names above the staff and not parsing note entry to
get chord names (if indeed LilyPond can do this at all, I've never
looked into it).  This makes the most sense to me (and I hope my
intent is clearer).


Right now, the ChordNames context works much better with chords  
entered in
\chordmode, because it knows the root and the inversion, rather  
than having

to try to guess the chord.

I suspect that there won't be a lot of effort right now trying to  
deal with

inversions or added basses, but that may come in the future.

In my opinion, the biggest problem we currently have is that we  
don't always
get good chord names out of \chordmode chords.  But I think Thomas  
will have

that fixed shortly


Way cool!



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message c65907ef.9d32%c_soren...@byu.edu, Carl D. Sorensen 
c_soren...@byu.edu writes

But there is a (to me) surprisingly large contingent of users who claim that
there is no well-defined connection between chord names and chord notes, and
that they want total control over the symbols to be displayed.  And the
lyricChordNames functionality is a way to get transposable chord names for
people who are in that camp.


Let's take the notes C, Eb, F, Ab. Which chord is that? What's the root?

You can easily go from the name to the notes, but not the other way 
round.


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Kieren MacMillan]

Wol et al:

Let's take the notes C, Eb, F, Ab. Which chord is that? What's the  
root?
You can easily go from the name to the notes, but not the other way  
round.


We *could* parse it from the first note, i.e. in relative mode

F C Eb Ab

and

Ab C, Eb F

would display as the same chord (close harmony), but generate two  
different chord names (e.g., Fmin7 and Ab6, respectively) based on  
the first-chord-pitch-is-root system.


Not sure if it's enforceable, but it's one way of getting the cake  
and eating it too.  =)


Cheers,
Kieren.


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[kztone]

Anthony W. Youngman wrote:
In message c65907ef.9d32%c_soren...@byu.edu, Carl D. Sorensen 
c_soren...@byu.edu writes
But there is a (to me) surprisingly large contingent of users who 
claim that
there is no well-defined connection between chord names and chord 
notes, and

that they want total control over the symbols to be displayed.  And the
lyricChordNames functionality is a way to get transposable chord 
names for

people who are in that camp.


Let's take the notes C, Eb, F, Ab. Which chord is that? What's the root?

You can easily go from the name to the notes, but not the other way 
round.

I agree.

I think it's easy to convert chord tones(voicing) to chord name
if voicing is a stacking thirds from root w/o rotation, but who use this 
voicing?


I don't know how to call this but I often use voicing like F B E for 
G7, Db7 or Fmaj7.

Also many players use  quartal voicing(stacking forth).
i.e. D G C F.  we can say Dm11 for this but probably there is no Dm11 
in the music sheet.
People might use this voicing for Dm7.  Of course, if you change root, 
you'll get other chords.


To me,  chord name is just guide to generate voicing, or to imply 
associated scales.
Also chord *progression* influences  voicing. 
I don't think there is a perfect way to convert chord tones(voicing) to 
chord name.


-kz


Cheers,
Wol





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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 15, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Kieren MacMillan wrote:


Wol et al:

Let's take the notes C, Eb, F, Ab. Which chord is that? What's the  
root?
You can easily go from the name to the notes, but not the other  
way round.


We *could* parse it from the first note, i.e. in relative mode

F C Eb Ab

and

Ab C, Eb F

would display as the same chord (close harmony), but generate two  
different chord names (e.g., Fmin7 and Ab6, respectively) based on  
the first-chord-pitch-is-root system.


Not sure if it's enforceable, but it's one way of getting the cake  
and eating it too.  =)


Unless you want Ab6/Eb from  Eb Ab C F .  The problem here, of  
course, is that human interpretation is much more flexible and is  
able to take intent into account, whereas machine algorithms are  
challenged by this sort of thing and typically fall short.  Also, if  
the voicing leaves out the 5th (common in jazz) then what does that  
do to the ability to parse the chord into chord names?


How many users are wanting to write out chord entries by note ( c e  
g b2 b d fis a2 d fis a c2 etc. ) into .ly files and have  
LilyPond parse them into chord names above the staff?  I don't do  
that- I am just writing out Real Book-stye lead sheets and use the  
chord naming method ( c2:maj7 b2:m7 d2:7 )-  so I have no idea how  
usual this is.  Would it be reasonable to separate the functions of  
putting notes on the staff and chord names above the staff, and let  
the user spell out the chord names separately from the notes on the  
staff?  Doing so might really simplify this discussion and result in  
better control of the final output.



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Jean-Alexis Montignies]

Le 9 juin 09 à 18:25, Carl D. Sorensen a écrit :





On 6/9/09 9:16 AM, Jean-Alexis Montignies j...@sente.ch wrote:




You can find an example of a chord notated as 'phrygian' (well it's  
more a
modal indication, but that's what the composer Gary Peacock  
intended) in the

lead sheet for Vignette.
More arguments for using names: Alt is much more easy to write and  
read, less

error prone than: 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-


So if Alt is always (or primarily) 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13- we should add  
an alt

modifier to LilyPond.  Then, we could say c:alt, and get just what the
composer intends.  And then we should have the ChordNames context  
generate

CAlt.

If it's expandable as for the chord exceptions, why not.



I'm not arguing that the list of modifiers is currently complete or
sufficient.  Certainly we could add modifiers to make things  
easier.  I
haven't pursued that idea yet, because I haven't needed it for my  
work.


But as I said before, if anybody wants to create a chordname input  
mode that
takes a root, and arbitrary name string, and an optional added bass,  
they're

welcome to do so.

Yes, may be it would be good to have two ways of entering the chords.
One would be the current one where lilypond finds the chord markup  
from intervals from the chord root .
The other would be where lilypond finds the markup from a chord name  
(coming from a extendable dictionary?) (and possibly a realization as  
notes).


For my current needs, I can use the first system, but the second is  
closer to the way I think and easier to use.
I could help to implement that this summer, I have however currently  
no knowledge of scheme nor lilypond internals yet. My feeling is that  
the two are not so different and some code could be common to the two  
systems.




Carl


Jean-Alexis



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/12/09 9:10 AM, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote:

 
 
 On Jun 12, 2009, at 1:28 AM, Tao Cumplido wrote:
 
 I think it's great that you did this.  Have you put this on LSR?
 
 Thanks. I haven't put this on LSR yet because the function hasn't
 been much tested yet. Maybe I should have done anyway.
 When the function is updated I will upload it there.
 
 Perhaps we should consider adding this to the distribution.
 
 What exactly do you mean? To which part yould you add it?
 
 Ummm.  Here is a question of software philosophy.  Should there, like
 some computers languages, be many ways to do something or should
 there only be one?  In my opinion, in the long run it makes it harder
 to learn to use something like LilyPond if there are six ways to do
 the same thing.  The documentation becomes more difficult to write
 and to maintain, it becomes harder for new users to learn how to use
 the software, and as the software accretes ways to do things the
 package gets bigger and easier to break.  LilyPond .ly syntax is a
 programming language itself and the clearer and more specific the
 rules are for its operation, the simpler and more reliable its use.
 
 I think that there should be only two ways to enter chords (at least
 in Western music notation systems):  by putting in the notes to be
 placed on the staff or by entering the text name of the chord in a
 single standardized, sensible way.  Once we start adding ways to
 engrave chords using the markup or lyric functions we are heading
 towards chaos IMHO.

I agree with you, if what is wanted is chord entry.  But Tao doesn't care
about chords, he only cares about chord names.  And so a new type of entity
can be created, which isn't a chord, but instead a lyricChordName.

lyricChordNames can be treated in a separate section of the documentation.
They are displayed in a Lyrics context, not a ChordNames context.  And they
give the user tremendous flexibility to display whatever the user wants to
display for chord names.

Personally, I would never use lyricChordNames.  I agree with you that chords
are groups of notes, and we should not lose sight of that.  And with your
help, we should be able to rewrite the chordmode and ChordNames
functionality to support that usage.

But there is a (to me) surprisingly large contingent of users who claim that
there is no well-defined connection between chord names and chord notes, and
that they want total control over the symbols to be displayed.  And the
lyricChordNames functionality is a way to get transposable chord names for
people who are in that camp.

I don't think it's a problem to have multiple clearly-defined modes.  That's
why I think it may be feasible to implement Tao's suggestion.

Thanks,

Carl

 
 
 



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tao Cumplido]

 I think it's great that you did this.  Have you put this on LSR?

Thanks. I haven't put this on LSR yet because the function hasn't been much 
tested yet. Maybe I should have done anyway.
When the function is updated I will upload it there.

 Perhaps we should consider adding this to the distribution.

What exactly do you mean? To which part yould you add it?

Regards,

Tao
-- 
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Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/12/09 12:28 AM, Tao Cumplido tao_lilypondu...@gmx.net wrote:

 I think it's great that you did this.  Have you put this on LSR?
 
 Thanks. I haven't put this on LSR yet because the function hasn't been much
 tested yet. Maybe I should have done anyway.
 When the function is updated I will upload it there.
 
 Perhaps we should consider adding this to the distribution.
 
 What exactly do you mean? To which part yould you add it?

We could possibly add a lyric-chordnames.ly file that would include the
functions necessary to create chordnames according to your scheme.

Carl



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 12, 2009, at 1:28 AM, Tao Cumplido wrote:


I think it's great that you did this.  Have you put this on LSR?


Thanks. I haven't put this on LSR yet because the function hasn't  
been much tested yet. Maybe I should have done anyway.

When the function is updated I will upload it there.


Perhaps we should consider adding this to the distribution.


What exactly do you mean? To which part yould you add it?


Ummm.  Here is a question of software philosophy.  Should there, like  
some computers languages, be many ways to do something or should  
there only be one?  In my opinion, in the long run it makes it harder  
to learn to use something like LilyPond if there are six ways to do  
the same thing.  The documentation becomes more difficult to write  
and to maintain, it becomes harder for new users to learn how to use  
the software, and as the software accretes ways to do things the  
package gets bigger and easier to break.  LilyPond .ly syntax is a  
programming language itself and the clearer and more specific the  
rules are for its operation, the simpler and more reliable its use.


I think that there should be only two ways to enter chords (at least  
in Western music notation systems):  by putting in the notes to be  
placed on the staff or by entering the text name of the chord in a  
single standardized, sensible way.  Once we start adding ways to  
engrave chords using the markup or lyric functions we are heading  
towards chaos IMHO.



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Jean-Alexis Montignies]

Le 10 juin 09 à 02:11, kzt a écrit :


Hi,


You can find an example of a chord notated as 'phrygian' (well  
it's more a
modal indication, but that's what the composer Gary Peacock  
intended) in the

lead sheet for Vignette.
More arguments for using names: Alt is much more easy to write  
and read, less

error prone than: 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-


So if Alt is always (or primarily) 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13- we should  
add an alt
modifier to LilyPond.  Then, we could say c:alt, and get just what  
the
composer intends.  And then we should have the ChordNames context  
generate

CAlt.

Note that it's notated C7 Alt (or alt)


At least in the Real Books, the chord usually just says C alt on  
the chart.  The structure of the alt chord is pretty variable and  
up for interpretation on the fly.  Many times it's just played as a  
dominant 7b5b9.



I agree with Tim. It's up for players.
Assigning 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-  statically to the altered chord   
does not make sense to me.
It depends how you define the altered chord. For me it's the chord  
derived from the altered scale (7th mode of melodic minor). The alt  
chord is a logical choice for subV7, subV7/V, subV7/IV.


Of course a player will rarely play all the notes of the mode. Common  
voicings includes the ones with b5b9, b13b9, b13#9


BTW, is 3-  right?   I guess 3- is meant for #9 but looks   
major 3rd is missing.


Right this is a trick because Lilypond won't accept #9 and b9 and the  
same time. Next trick is to use a b11 'as' a M3. I did that because of  
the limitations of Lilypond. Now we're discussing about how to do that  
better.



Why don't we just make alt available only for scoring? bad idea?
To me, score is important.  midi is not.

Right, Lilypond is really about engraving. Midi is a (probably useful)  
extra function but it should not be the aim.
If I notate an Alt chord, I intend players to improvise over the  
altered scale, I intend compers to underlay this sound as well but not  
to play a cluster with all the scale chords :). If I render a midi  
file, I would choose one possible voicing for the Alt chord.
So currently in Lilypond we can't do that: at the same time have a  
correct score and a correct midi track for the chords. This is not an  
issue for me because I'm not using the midi side.
I guess the closest thing to jazz with lilypond for now is to have a  
separate track for the score and for the generated midi track (an  
arrangement for the chords).



- kzt


Jean-Alexis



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tao Cumplido]

 But as I said before, if anybody wants to create a chordname input mode
 that
 takes a root, and arbitrary name string, and an optional added bass,
 they're
 welcome to do so.

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-02/msg00293.html

The input-mode is a little constructed but it works.

Since I got a little more experience in scheme lately I actually wanted to 
improve the function in the near future but I don't really know yet when I'll 
get around to do so.

I also know that the font won't suit everybodies needs but as said, I don't 
think it's too difficult to adjust the funtion to work with other fonts.

Regards
-- 
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Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome01


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Grammostola Rosea]

kzt wrote:

Hi,


You can find an example of a chord notated as 'phrygian' (well it's 
more a
modal indication, but that's what the composer Gary Peacock 
intended) in the

lead sheet for Vignette.
More arguments for using names: Alt is much more easy to write and 
read, less

error prone than: 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-


So if Alt is always (or primarily) 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13- we should add 
an alt

modifier to LilyPond.  Then, we could say c:alt, and get just what the
composer intends.  And then we should have the ChordNames context 
generate

CAlt.


At least in the Real Books, the chord usually just says C alt on 
the chart.  The structure of the alt chord is pretty variable and up 
for interpretation on the fly.  Many times it's just played as a 
dominant 7b5b9.



Why don't we just make alt available only for scoring? bad idea?
To me, score is important.  midi is not.

For others midi is important, so please not half solutions...

\r



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/10/09 2:03 AM, Tao Cumplido tao_lilypondu...@gmx.net wrote:

 But as I said before, if anybody wants to create a chordname input mode
 that
 takes a root, and arbitrary name string, and an optional added bass,
 they're
 welcome to do so.
 
 http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2009-02/msg00293.html
 
 The input-mode is a little constructed but it works.

Right, but this input mode gives chords as lyrics, not as ChordNames.  It's
certainly a way to accomplish what you want, and I don't want to minimize
the benefit of your work.

I think it's great that you did this.  Have you put this on LSR?

Perhaps we should consider adding this to the distribution.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Grammostola Rosea]

Jean-Alexis Montignies wrote:


1) I had some difficulties to write the Alt chords (for me it's based
on the superlocrian scale 1 2- 2+ 3 4+ 6- (or 5+) 7-)  because the
scale has two seconds. (Note that the diminished scale cannot be
written for now with the chord notation, if you ever want to write a 8
note chord ;) ).


This an issue in chord input mode, and should be reported to 
bug-lilypond as

an enhancement request.  For you, the limitation of only one instance of
each step in a chord is a limitation.
Well for this specific case, I used a 3- and a 4- as a workaround, so 
it's not a issue for me.





2) There no way to write N.C. : no chord (wouldn't the use of R, r and
s make sense in the chord mode?)


N.C. is implemented for r in chordNames context starting with 2.13.1.  It
will be available in the next development version.  Support for 
generating
N.C. with R is planned.  I don't think that s should generate N.C.; s 
means

don't output anything.


That's how I though about it, good!


3) I had to use some tricks for chords that last on several measures
for the symbol not to repeat on each measure.


\set ChordChanges = ##t is all that it takes.

Uh, it would have saved me some time :)



4) I would have liked to use parenthesis around the column for chord
extensions like in most jazz charts. I used brackets instead.


I hope we'll be able to implement this, but if we don't, remind us again.

A parenthesis function that works like brackets would do it!





Lilypond of other programs will never be able to interpret notes as
chords (even humans can't do that because there are always ambiguities).

I think the more sensitive approach for pop and jazz is a chord
library with a string as input (maj7) and as output a notation as
markup for chord symbol, optionally as a realisation as notes or chord
diagram (could even have options to select or override the realisation).


That's what we have in essence with our current chordmode.  The 
string has
some specific syntax, and it provides realization as notes, chord 
diagrams,
and chord names.  But the chord names functionality isn't what we 
want right

now.

The problem now is that you have to write the realization to get the 
chord name. Thinking the other way around is more logical from the 
composer point of view, in jazz at least. (or let the realization up 
to the interpreter).

So add me to the list of people who prefer chord names over chord tones!



I myself need only the chord symbol. Such a simple model is in my
opinion simple to use, customizable and extends easily to other
musics. For me the chord name is more semantics than just notes.

You'll find my current chord exception list below, note that i've used
the unicode chars for the flat and sharp before the extensions as it
gives a very natural layout in this case.


Thank you for this exception list.  It provides a nice reference.

The major problem with an exception list is that it doesn't handle slash
chords; I hope to be able fix that.
I'm using exception with slash chords and have no problems. 
However I don't think there is  a way of entering polychords chords. 
(I don't need that -yet- :) ).






Thanks,

Carl





Carl, have you made up your conclusions about Jazz chords already? Maybe 
you can share them?



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Jean-Alexis Montignies]

Lilypond of other programs will never be able to interpret notes as
chords (even humans can't do that because there are always  
ambiguities).


I think the more sensitive approach for pop and jazz is a chord
library with a string as input (maj7) and as output a notation as
markup for chord symbol, optionally as a realisation as notes or  
chord
diagram (could even have options to select or override the  
realisation).


That's what we have in essence with our current chordmode.  The  
string has
some specific syntax, and it provides realization as notes, chord  
diagrams,
and chord names.  But the chord names functionality isn't what we  
want right

now.

The problem now is that you have to write the realization to get  
the chord name. Thinking the other way around is more logical from  
the composer point of view, in jazz at least. (or let the  
realization up to the interpreter).
So add me to the list of people who prefer chord names over chord  
tones!



You can find an example of a chord notated as 'phrygian' (well it's  
more a modal indication, but that's what the composer Gary Peacock  
intended) in the lead sheet for Vignette.
More arguments for using names: Alt is much more easy to write and  
read, less error prone than: 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-


Regards,

Jean-Alexis

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/9/09 9:16 AM, Jean-Alexis Montignies j...@sente.ch wrote:


 
 You can find an example of a chord notated as 'phrygian' (well it's more a
 modal indication, but that's what the composer Gary Peacock intended) in the
 lead sheet for Vignette.
 More arguments for using names: Alt is much more easy to write and read, less
 error prone than: 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-

So if Alt is always (or primarily) 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13- we should add an alt
modifier to LilyPond.  Then, we could say c:alt, and get just what the
composer intends.  And then we should have the ChordNames context generate
CAlt.

I'm not arguing that the list of modifiers is currently complete or
sufficient.  Certainly we could add modifiers to make things easier.  I
haven't pursued that idea yet, because I haven't needed it for my work.

But as I said before, if anybody wants to create a chordname input mode that
takes a root, and arbitrary name string, and an optional added bass, they're
welcome to do so.

Carl



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:


On 6/9/09 9:16 AM, Jean-Alexis Montignies j...@sente.ch wrote:




You can find an example of a chord notated as 'phrygian' (well  
it's more a
modal indication, but that's what the composer Gary Peacock  
intended) in the

lead sheet for Vignette.
More arguments for using names: Alt is much more easy to write and  
read, less

error prone than: 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-


So if Alt is always (or primarily) 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13- we should add  
an alt

modifier to LilyPond.  Then, we could say c:alt, and get just what the
composer intends.  And then we should have the ChordNames context  
generate

CAlt.


At least in the Real Books, the chord usually just says C alt on  
the chart.  The structure of the alt chord is pretty variable and up  
for interpretation on the fly.  Many times it's just played as a  
dominant 7b5b9.



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[kzt]

Hi,


You can find an example of a chord notated as 'phrygian' (well it's 
more a
modal indication, but that's what the composer Gary Peacock 
intended) in the

lead sheet for Vignette.
More arguments for using names: Alt is much more easy to write and 
read, less

error prone than: 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-


So if Alt is always (or primarily) 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13- we should add 
an alt

modifier to LilyPond.  Then, we could say c:alt, and get just what the
composer intends.  And then we should have the ChordNames context 
generate

CAlt.


At least in the Real Books, the chord usually just says C alt on the 
chart.  The structure of the alt chord is pretty variable and up for 
interpretation on the fly.  Many times it's just played as a dominant 
7b5b9.

I agree with Tim. It's up for players.
Assigning 7.3-.5-.9-.11-.13-  statically to the altered chord  does 
not make sense to me.
BTW, is 3-  right?   I guess 3- is meant for #9 but looks  major 
3rd is missing.


Why don't we just make alt available only for scoring? bad idea?
To me, score is important.  midi is not.

- kzt



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{Spam?} Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords (bit OT)

[Grammostola Rosea]

Atte André Jensen wrote:

Carl D. Sorensen wrote:


Yes, this is what is needed.  But I have a reference for chord naming at

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory17.htm#namechords

If this is wrong, then corrections would be appreciated.


That look pretty good, I disagree here and there (some small some 
larger objections), but I like the fact that he includes the 
sometimes-fighting-against-each-other-names (for instance some people 
can spend hours discussing why C5 is correct and C(omit3) is not).


I think a complete, consistent definition of what names IMO are 
considered good practice in Europe, would be the most useful to you. 
Did you consider implementing several parallel naming conventions? I 
think that would be best, since different people insist on a certain 
name for a chord, and those certain names often fall in sets that 
seems to be geographically oriented.



Note that for this part, I'm only concerned about the naming, not the
symbols. 


What do you mean by naming?


I do see disagreement between what Dolmetsch says about C/E and what
Juergensen says:

http://chrisjuergensen.com.hosting.domaindirect.com/chords_symbols_1.htm 



There's something fishy in his argumentation for C,D,G = Csus2. I 
think he is wrong there.


Dolmetsch says the 5th in a C/E is below the C; Juergensen says it's 
above.

That's the only contradiction I've found so far.


IMHO that's nonsense, sorry. Chord symbols don't translate into 
voicings like that. Here and there there are rules, but that more like 
good practices and people like Monk and Ellington breaks them all the 
time. I actually don't see where any of the links you mentions claim 
anything about the 5th being above or below the root?


Actually that was one of the things I found odd the last time I looked 
at lilypond (maybe it has changed): To get it to write the chord 
cymbol C13 I had to write a big, fat chord that spelled like C, E, G, 
Bb, D, F, A and sounds like... not so nice, I'm sorry. Nobody would 
ever voice a C13 like that! A simple voicing would be C, E, Bb, D, A 
(has to have C one octave below middle C) but there are endless other 
possibilities.


Anyway, I'd welcome any corrections to these naming rules, or if you 
have
your own complete set of these rules already written out, I'd be 
happy with

that as well.


As already mentioned, I think that a couple of well defined systems 
or logics for chord names should be included, one fairly well 
defined one that even has it's own name is Berklee, one that I'm not 
too familiar with unfortunately.


BTW. Why don't you use Lilypond anymore Atte? Is there something the 
Lilypond devs can do to get you back on the right road?



\r


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Jean-Alexis Montignies]

Hi there, as a jazz player I would like to share my input.

What I need in scores is really chord names.
The chord name denotes the intent of the composer and is much subject  
to interpretation.


Some examples:
If you have a dominant chord, you write G7. Most of the time, the  
pianist will not play the 5th and depending on the context will play a  
9th or a flattened 9th.
If you write G7b9, it just means that if you play a 9th, you should  
play a flattened one (probably the melody have a flattened 9th).
In the real book, most 7b5 chords should really be written 7#11, but  
this is another story.

I found a score where a chord was named 'phrygian'.

The problem I ran when i wrote chords in Lilypond:

1) I had some difficulties to write the Alt chords (for me it's based  
on the superlocrian scale 1 2- 2+ 3 4+ 6- (or 5+) 7-)  because the  
scale has two seconds. (Note that the diminished scale cannot be  
written for now with the chord notation, if you ever want to write a 8  
note chord ;) ).
2) There no way to write N.C. : no chord (wouldn't the use of R, r and  
s make sense in the chord mode?)
3) I had to use some tricks for chords that last on several measures  
for the symbol not to repeat on each measure.
4) I would have liked to use parenthesis around the column for chord  
extensions like in most jazz charts. I used brackets instead.


Lilypond of other programs will never be able to interpret notes as  
chords (even humans can't do that because there are always ambiguities).


I think the more sensitive approach for pop and jazz is a chord  
library with a string as input (maj7) and as output a notation as  
markup for chord symbol, optionally as a realisation as notes or chord  
diagram (could even have options to select or override the realisation).


I myself need only the chord symbol. Such a simple model is in my  
opinion simple to use, customizable and extends easily to other  
musics. For me the chord name is more semantics than just notes.


You'll find my current chord exception list below, note that i've used  
the unicode chars for the flat and sharp before the extensions as it  
gives a very natural layout in this case.


Greetings!

Jean-Alexis Montignies



% write out all custom exceptions here:
customChordExceptions =
{
% from ionian
c e g b- \markup { maj7 }
c e g b d'- \markup { maj9 }

%   from mixolydian
c e g bf- 7
c e g bf d'- 9
c e g bf d' a'- 13
c f g bf- 7sus4

%   from locrian
c ef gf bf- ø
%c ef gf bf- m7b5

%   from locrian ♮9
c ef gf bf d'- \markup { ø \hspace #1 \super \bracket ♮9 }

% from dorian
c ef g bf- m7
c ef g bf d'- m9
c ef g bf d' f'- m11

% from myxolydian b13 (MM5)
c e g bf af'- \markup { 7 \hspace #1 \super \bracket ♭13}

% from myxolydian #11
c e g bf fs'- \markup { 7 \hspace #1 \super \bracket ♯11}

% from lydian
c e g b fs'- \markup { maj9 \hspace #1 \super \bracket♯11 }

% from diminished scale (1/2 - T)
c ef gf bff- ○7

% from T-1/2T symetrical scale
 c e g bf df' a'- \markup { 13 \hspace #1 \super \bracket ♭9}

% from HM5 (mixolydian b9 b13)
c f g bf df'- \markup { 7sus4 \hspace #1 \super \bracket  
♭9 }

c e g bf df' af'- \markup
{ 7
\hspace #1 \bracket {
\fontsize #-3 { \override #'(direction . 1) \dir-column {
  \line { ♭9 }
  \line { ♭13 }
}  }
}
 }

% from superlocrian (MM7)
c e g bf ds'- \markup { 7 \hspace #1 \super \bracket ♯9}

c e g bf df' fs'- \markup
{ 7
\hspace #1 \bracket {
\fontsize #-3 { \override #'(direction . 1) \dir-column {
  \line { ♭9 }
  \line { ♯11 }
}  }
}
 }

c ef g bf df' ff'- \markup
{ 7
\hspace #1 \bracket {
\fontsize #-3 { \override #'(direction . 1) \dir-column {
  \line { ♭9 }
  \line { ♯9 }
}  }
}
 }
c e g bf ds' af'- \markup
{ 7
\hspace #1 \bracket {
\fontsize #-3 { \override #'(direction . 1) \dir-column {
  \line { ♯9 }
  \line { ♭13 }
}  }
}
 }

c ef gf bf df' ff' af'- 7alt

% from lydian augmented
c e gs b- \markup { maj7 \hspace #1 \super \bracket♯5}

}

% add custom exceptions to existing exceptions:
newChordExceptionList = #(append
 (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions customChordExceptions #t)
 ignatzekExceptions)



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/2/09 3:55 AM, Jean-Alexis Montignies j...@sente.ch wrote:

 Hi there, as a jazz player I would like to share my input.

Thanks for sharing, Jean-Alexis.

 
 What I need in scores is really chord names.
 The chord name denotes the intent of the composer and is much subject
 to interpretation.
 
 Some examples:
 If you have a dominant chord, you write G7. Most of the time, the
 pianist will not play the 5th and depending on the context will play a
 9th or a flattened 9th.
 If you write G7b9, it just means that if you play a 9th, you should
 play a flattened one (probably the melody have a flattened 9th).
 In the real book, most 7b5 chords should really be written 7#11, but
 this is another story.
 I found a score where a chord was named 'phrygian'.
 
 The problem I ran when i wrote chords in Lilypond:
 
 1) I had some difficulties to write the Alt chords (for me it's based
 on the superlocrian scale 1 2- 2+ 3 4+ 6- (or 5+) 7-)  because the
 scale has two seconds. (Note that the diminished scale cannot be
 written for now with the chord notation, if you ever want to write a 8
 note chord ;) ).

This an issue in chord input mode, and should be reported to bug-lilypond as
an enhancement request.  For you, the limitation of only one instance of
each step in a chord is a limitation.

 2) There no way to write N.C. : no chord (wouldn't the use of R, r and
 s make sense in the chord mode?)

N.C. is implemented for r in chordNames context starting with 2.13.1.  It
will be available in the next development version.  Support for generating
N.C. with R is planned.  I don't think that s should generate N.C.; s means
don't output anything.

 3) I had to use some tricks for chords that last on several measures
 for the symbol not to repeat on each measure.

\set ChordChanges = ##t is all that it takes.

 4) I would have liked to use parenthesis around the column for chord
 extensions like in most jazz charts. I used brackets instead.

I hope we'll be able to implement this, but if we don't, remind us again.

 
 Lilypond of other programs will never be able to interpret notes as
 chords (even humans can't do that because there are always ambiguities).
 
 I think the more sensitive approach for pop and jazz is a chord
 library with a string as input (maj7) and as output a notation as
 markup for chord symbol, optionally as a realisation as notes or chord
 diagram (could even have options to select or override the realisation).

That's what we have in essence with our current chordmode.  The string has
some specific syntax, and it provides realization as notes, chord diagrams,
and chord names.  But the chord names functionality isn't what we want right
now.

 
 I myself need only the chord symbol. Such a simple model is in my
 opinion simple to use, customizable and extends easily to other
 musics. For me the chord name is more semantics than just notes.
 
 You'll find my current chord exception list below, note that i've used
 the unicode chars for the flat and sharp before the extensions as it
 gives a very natural layout in this case.

Thank you for this exception list.  It provides a nice reference.

The major problem with an exception list is that it doesn't handle slash
chords; I hope to be able fix that.


Thanks,

Carl



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 2, 2009, at 4:55 AM, Jean-Alexis Montignies wrote:


Hi there, as a jazz player I would like to share my input.

What I need in scores is really chord names.
The chord name denotes the intent of the composer and is much  
subject to interpretation.


Some examples:
If you have a dominant chord, you write G7. Most of the time, the  
pianist will not play the 5th and depending on the context will  
play a 9th or a flattened 9th.
If you write G7b9, it just means that if you play a 9th, you should  
play a flattened one (probably the melody have a flattened 9th).
In the real book, most 7b5 chords should really be written 7#11,  
but this is another story.

I found a score where a chord was named 'phrygian'.

The problem I ran when i wrote chords in Lilypond:

1) I had some difficulties to write the Alt chords (for me it's  
based on the superlocrian scale 1 2- 2+ 3 4+ 6- (or 5+) 7-)   
because the scale has two seconds. (Note that the diminished scale  
cannot be written for now with the chord notation, if you ever want  
to write a 8 note chord ;) ).
2) There no way to write N.C. : no chord (wouldn't the use of R, r  
and s make sense in the chord mode?)




The plan per Carl or someone is to add a N.C. function to the  
chordmode using r as the input; it will be folded into 2.13 IIRC.


This can currently be done with a workaround provided to me by a very  
generous list member:


\version 2.12.2

% Whiteout hide the chordname
NCString  = { c e g-\markup { \whiteout { \hspace #-2  N.C. }}}
ChrdExcep = #(append (sequential-music-to-chord-exceptions NCString #t)
   ignatzekExceptions)

% Example
% {
% {
% \chords {
%  a2:m7 d2:7.9-
%  g2:m7 c2:7
%  \set   chordNameExceptions = #ChrdExcep c1 %chord c e g as NCString
%  \unset chordNameExceptions
%  a2:m7 d2:7.9-
%   }
% }
 % \relative c' {  a'2 d2 g,2 c2 c4 c4 c4 c4  a2 }
% 
% }


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Jean-Alexis Montignies]

1) I had some difficulties to write the Alt chords (for me it's based
on the superlocrian scale 1 2- 2+ 3 4+ 6- (or 5+) 7-)  because the
scale has two seconds. (Note that the diminished scale cannot be
written for now with the chord notation, if you ever want to write  
a 8

note chord ;) ).


This an issue in chord input mode, and should be reported to bug- 
lilypond as
an enhancement request.  For you, the limitation of only one  
instance of

each step in a chord is a limitation.
Well for this specific case, I used a 3- and a 4- as a workaround, so  
it's not a issue for me.




2) There no way to write N.C. : no chord (wouldn't the use of R, r  
and

s make sense in the chord mode?)


N.C. is implemented for r in chordNames context starting with  
2.13.1.  It
will be available in the next development version.  Support for  
generating
N.C. with R is planned.  I don't think that s should generate N.C.;  
s means

don't output anything.


That's how I though about it, good!


3) I had to use some tricks for chords that last on several measures
for the symbol not to repeat on each measure.


\set ChordChanges = ##t is all that it takes.

Uh, it would have saved me some time :)



4) I would have liked to use parenthesis around the column for chord
extensions like in most jazz charts. I used brackets instead.


I hope we'll be able to implement this, but if we don't, remind us  
again.

A parenthesis function that works like brackets would do it!





Lilypond of other programs will never be able to interpret notes as
chords (even humans can't do that because there are always  
ambiguities).


I think the more sensitive approach for pop and jazz is a chord
library with a string as input (maj7) and as output a notation as
markup for chord symbol, optionally as a realisation as notes or  
chord
diagram (could even have options to select or override the  
realisation).


That's what we have in essence with our current chordmode.  The  
string has
some specific syntax, and it provides realization as notes, chord  
diagrams,
and chord names.  But the chord names functionality isn't what we  
want right

now.

The problem now is that you have to write the realization to get the  
chord name. Thinking the other way around is more logical from the  
composer point of view, in jazz at least. (or let the realization up  
to the interpreter).

So add me to the list of people who prefer chord names over chord tones!



I myself need only the chord symbol. Such a simple model is in my
opinion simple to use, customizable and extends easily to other
musics. For me the chord name is more semantics than just notes.

You'll find my current chord exception list below, note that i've  
used

the unicode chars for the flat and sharp before the extensions as it
gives a very natural layout in this case.


Thank you for this exception list.  It provides a nice reference.

The major problem with an exception list is that it doesn't handle  
slash

chords; I hope to be able fix that.

I'm using exception with slash chords and have no problems.
However I don't think there is  a way of entering polychords chords.  
(I don't need that -yet- :) ).






Thanks,

Carl


Jean-Alexis

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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim Rowe]

2009/6/1 Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu:

 You are welcome to pursue this, if you are interested in it.  It is not my
 interest.

I think it shows the impossibility of what you are trying to achieve,
at least in the completely general case, although pushing the
boundaries closer to that general case is valuable of course. Beyond
trivial cases, a combination of notes does not have /a/ name, it has
many names depending on the musical context.  For jazz chords, the
chord notes and the chord names really need to be separated (perhaps
an optional name following the notes) unless the software can
understand the musical context better than a lot of musicians. Or just
stick with chord mode.

-- 
Tim Rowe


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 1, 2009, at 4:13 AM, Tim Rowe wrote:


2009/6/1 Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu:

You are welcome to pursue this, if you are interested in it.  It  
is not my

interest.


I think it shows the impossibility of what you are trying to achieve,
at least in the completely general case, although pushing the
boundaries closer to that general case is valuable of course. Beyond
trivial cases, a combination of notes does not have /a/ name, it has
many names depending on the musical context.  For jazz chords, the
chord notes and the chord names really need to be separated (perhaps
an optional name following the notes) unless the software can
understand the musical context better than a lot of musicians. Or just
stick with chord mode.


Particularly when entering the notes and the root is not the chord  
name.  For example, a chord I saw in a Pat Martino chart would have  
included:


d des fes aes

which was written as Dbmin/D.  I have no idea how one would make  
LilyPond properly interpret slash chords or compound chords from note  
entries.  Rendering chords written as chord names (des2:m5/d) would  
of course be simpler.



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Thomas]

I was just brainstorming, I don`t expect anybody to implement that :-)
 ... I just thought, if music (as long as it's not abstract) follows some 
basic principles, why this is not reflected in the chord naming sometimes.

Slash Chords are a good example ... they are a good, easily readable 
instruction what notes to play, but they don't reflect the harmonic function 
of the chord.
I'm sure an illiterate gypsy guitarist could improvise very well over that 
Pat Martino song, because he recognizes the tonic or dominat character of 
that chord by ear...
that is the underlying harmonic function ... although he shouldn't be able 
to do that, because slash chords are considered modern, sophisticated, 
difficult

Lets say, that Martino song has a key and a tonic, and the harmony moves in 
a chain of fifth, half- and whole-tones towards oe away from that tonic, 
then the  Dbmin/D
very likely has a dominant or tonic finction within this chain (depending on 
the rest of this song) and could be named after this function ... but that 
would be more difficult to read probably.

Don't let me be misunderstood... thats just brainstorming about naming jazz 
chords in general (and how chord names sometimes obscure whats going on 
harmonically) ... to implement something like this
would be very difficult, I guess ... I'm only starting to work with lilypond 
and didn't want to introduce overambitiuos goals. I think what you are 
planning to do is very valuable and does not need a deep discussion about 
harmony etc.
cheers
thomas

.

Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:cf58f389-2dc8-4eef-9cf9-ccd8b7af7...@bitstream.net...

 On Jun 1, 2009, at 4:13 AM, Tim Rowe wrote:

 2009/6/1 Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu:

 You are welcome to pursue this, if you are interested in it.  It  is not 
 my
 interest.

 I think it shows the impossibility of what you are trying to achieve,
 at least in the completely general case, although pushing the
 boundaries closer to that general case is valuable of course. Beyond
 trivial cases, a combination of notes does not have /a/ name, it has
 many names depending on the musical context.  For jazz chords, the
 chord notes and the chord names really need to be separated (perhaps
 an optional name following the notes) unless the software can
 understand the musical context better than a lot of musicians. Or just
 stick with chord mode.

 Particularly when entering the notes and the root is not the chord  name. 
 For example, a chord I saw in a Pat Martino chart would have  included:

 d des fes aes

 which was written as Dbmin/D.  I have no idea how one would make  LilyPond 
 properly interpret slash chords or compound chords from note  entries. 
 Rendering chords written as chord names (des2:m5/d) would  of course be 
 simpler. 





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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Marc Hohl]

Thomas schrieb:

I was just brainstorming, I don`t expect anybody to implement that :-)
 ... I just thought, if music (as long as it's not abstract) follows some 
basic principles, why this is not reflected in the chord naming sometimes.


Slash Chords are a good example ... they are a good, easily readable 
instruction what notes to play, but they don't reflect the harmonic function 
of the chord.
I'm sure an illiterate gypsy guitarist could improvise very well over that 
Pat Martino song, because he recognizes the tonic or dominat character of 
that chord by ear...
that is the underlying harmonic function ... although he shouldn't be able 
to do that, because slash chords are considered modern, sophisticated, 
difficult


Lets say, that Martino song has a key and a tonic, and the harmony moves in 
a chain of fifth, half- and whole-tones towards oe away from that tonic, 
then the  Dbmin/D
very likely has a dominant or tonic finction within this chain (depending on 
the rest of this song) and could be named after this function ... but that 
would be more difficult to read probably.


Don't let me be misunderstood... thats just brainstorming about naming jazz 
chords in general (and how chord names sometimes obscure whats going on 
harmonically) ... to implement something like this
would be very difficult, I guess ... I'm only starting to work with lilypond 
and didn't want to introduce overambitiuos goals. I think what you are 
planning to do is very valuable and does not need a deep discussion about 
harmony etc.

cheers
thomas
  

I think this is far from being implemented, but it is a nice idea to let
the computer do some kind of harmonic analysis to name a given
chord structure properly. And with the book from Pöhlert as a
starting point, this seems to be doable (at least Pöhlert tries to remove
as much mystery out of the jazz theory as possible).

Marc

.

Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:cf58f389-2dc8-4eef-9cf9-ccd8b7af7...@bitstream.net...
  

On Jun 1, 2009, at 4:13 AM, Tim Rowe wrote:



2009/6/1 Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu:

  
You are welcome to pursue this, if you are interested in it.  It  is not 
my

interest.


I think it shows the impossibility of what you are trying to achieve,
at least in the completely general case, although pushing the
boundaries closer to that general case is valuable of course. Beyond
trivial cases, a combination of notes does not have /a/ name, it has
many names depending on the musical context.  For jazz chords, the
chord notes and the chord names really need to be separated (perhaps
an optional name following the notes) unless the software can
understand the musical context better than a lot of musicians. Or just
stick with chord mode.
  
Particularly when entering the notes and the root is not the chord  name. 
For example, a chord I saw in a Pat Martino chart would have  included:


d des fes aes

which was written as Dbmin/D.  I have no idea how one would make  LilyPond 
properly interpret slash chords or compound chords from note  entries. 
Rendering chords written as chord names (des2:m5/d) would  of course be 
simpler. 







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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Grammostola Rosea]

Marc Hohl wrote:

Thomas schrieb:

I was just brainstorming, I don`t expect anybody to implement that :-)
 ... I just thought, if music (as long as it's not abstract) follows 
some basic principles, why this is not reflected in the chord naming 
sometimes.


Slash Chords are a good example ... they are a good, easily readable 
instruction what notes to play, but they don't reflect the harmonic 
function of the chord.
I'm sure an illiterate gypsy guitarist could improvise very well over 
that Pat Martino song, because he recognizes the tonic or dominat 
character of that chord by ear...
that is the underlying harmonic function ... although he shouldn't be 
able to do that, because slash chords are considered modern, 
sophisticated, difficult


Lets say, that Martino song has a key and a tonic, and the harmony 
moves in a chain of fifth, half- and whole-tones towards oe away from 
that tonic, then the  Dbmin/D
very likely has a dominant or tonic finction within this chain 
(depending on the rest of this song) and could be named after this 
function ... but that would be more difficult to read probably.


Don't let me be misunderstood... thats just brainstorming about 
naming jazz chords in general (and how chord names sometimes obscure 
whats going on harmonically) ... to implement something like this
would be very difficult, I guess ... I'm only starting to work with 
lilypond and didn't want to introduce overambitiuos goals. I think 
what you are planning to do is very valuable and does not need a deep 
discussion about harmony etc.

cheers
thomas
  

I think this is far from being implemented, but it is a nice idea to let
the computer do some kind of harmonic analysis to name a given
chord structure properly. And with the book from Pöhlert as a
starting point, this seems to be doable (at least Pöhlert tries to remove
as much mystery out of the jazz theory as possible).
Such a application as Improvisor is using scientific analysis to compose 
jazz songs..

It's GPL AFAIK
http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~keller/jazz/improvisor/

\r


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Grammostola Rosea]

Tim McNamara wrote:


On Jun 1, 2009, at 4:13 AM, Tim Rowe wrote:


2009/6/1 Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu:

You are welcome to pursue this, if you are interested in it.  It is 
not my

interest.


I think it shows the impossibility of what you are trying to achieve,
at least in the completely general case, although pushing the
boundaries closer to that general case is valuable of course. Beyond
trivial cases, a combination of notes does not have /a/ name, it has
many names depending on the musical context.  For jazz chords, the
chord notes and the chord names really need to be separated (perhaps
an optional name following the notes) unless the software can
understand the musical context better than a lot of musicians. Or just
stick with chord mode.


Particularly when entering the notes and the root is not the chord 
name.  For example, a chord I saw in a Pat Martino chart would have 
included:


d des fes aes

which was written as Dbmin/D.  I have no idea how one would make 
LilyPond properly interpret slash chords or compound chords from note 
entries.  Rendering chords written as chord names (des2:m5/d) would of 
course be simpler.



I agree with this.

Couldn't there be an 'automatic chord mode' and an 'mode which just 
display the chord names', not the notes?


\r


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/1/09 12:50 PM, Grammostola Rosea rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote:

 Tim McNamara wrote:
 
 On Jun 1, 2009, at 4:13 AM, Tim Rowe wrote:
 
 2009/6/1 Carl D. Sorensen c_soren...@byu.edu:
 
 You are welcome to pursue this, if you are interested in it.  It is
 not my
 interest.
 
 I think it shows the impossibility of what you are trying to achieve,
 at least in the completely general case, although pushing the
 boundaries closer to that general case is valuable of course. Beyond
 trivial cases, a combination of notes does not have /a/ name, it has
 many names depending on the musical context.  For jazz chords, the
 chord notes and the chord names really need to be separated (perhaps
 an optional name following the notes) unless the software can
 understand the musical context better than a lot of musicians. Or just
 stick with chord mode.
 
 Particularly when entering the notes and the root is not the chord
 name.  For example, a chord I saw in a Pat Martino chart would have
 included:
 
 d des fes aes
 
 which was written as Dbmin/D.  I have no idea how one would make
 LilyPond properly interpret slash chords or compound chords from note
 entries.  

As far as I can see, there is very little hope for LilyPond making the right
decision about this chord entered in note mode.  The first note is not the
root of the chord, so it would require substantial computation time to try
to identify the chord properly (and there's no guarantee that the proper
chord identification is unique, based upon just the set of notes).  I'm not
even proposing to *try* to attack this problem.

As far as my current plan goes, this chord would be identified as a D chord
of some type, as is the current practice in LilyPond.  If the root and
inversion have not been identified (which they will not be when chords are
entered in note mode), then the first note in the chord is identified as the
root, which gives weird chord names.


 Rendering chords written as chord names (des2:m5/d) would of
 course be simpler.

Yes, and that functionality is not currently as strong as we'd like it to
be, I think.  That's what I'm proposing to rework, when I get the chance.

 
 I agree with this.
 
 Couldn't there be an 'automatic chord mode' and an 'mode which just
 display the chord names', not the notes?
 

What do you mean by 'automatic chord mode', and  'mode which just displays
the chord names'?

We currently have a context which just displays the chord names.  It's
called ChordNames.

We *don't* have a mode which just *accepts* chord names.  We have a mode
(chord mode) that accepts a root, a modifier, a maximum chord step, and can
add, remove, and modify chord steps, including moving a pitch to the bass or
adding a pitch to the bass.  This mode does not use chord names per se,
because chord names tend to be ambiguous (all one needs to do is look at the
variety of names for a given chord as defined by a set of pitches to see
this).  Parsers tend not to deal well with ambiguities, so what we have is a
completely non-ambiguous input format.  Someone who understands the
chordmode input format can look at a chordmode expression and determine
exactly what pitches are intended to be included in the chord.

A chordnamemode *input* mode has been proposed a couple of times.  This mode
would take only a root (and optionally, a slash or alternate bass note), and
everything else about the chord would be in the form of a markup.  For
american jazz chords, this functionality seems to be feasible (but it
couldn't handle the german practice of making minor chords have a lower case
root name, instead of an upper case root name for a major chord).  But I do
not have the expertise to implement such a mode, and I'm not really
interested in spending my time to develop such a mode.  For somebody who is
familiar with the parser, it may not be a huge deal to implement such an
input mode.   

If we had such a mode, we could add properties to a ChordEvent, I think we
could add the necessary properties to store the chord name information that
was generated by the input.  And the ChordNames context could be modified to
display those (except that I'm not sure how slash notes would be handled;
but I would guess it's possible to do so).

I guess that the bottom line to this ongoing request for a chord name
*input* mode may be able to be implemented, but it will likely take somebody
who is interested in it deciding to put in the time to make it happen, like
Marc has done with tablature.  Discussions about how it might work, what the
input syntax should be, etc. can be held, but they will remain just
interesting reference material until somebody decides to do something about
it.

Thanks,

Carl



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[lasconic]

Hi, 
Just in case it can be helpful, someone (Karl) post a pdf he wrote on
MuseScore (http://www.musescore.org) mailing list about chord name display.
Musescore is a free GPL WYSIWYG scorewriter (with lilypond export
capabilities)
Maybe it can be helpful to your current and future work on chord names
engraving for light music. Here is the discussion thread: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Setting-file-associations-for-Windows-td2729864i20.html#a2859233

Here is the link to the pdf : 
http://www.njonjo.net/chordfonts/chordfonts.pdf

HIH
Lasconic


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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 1, 2009, at 2:33 PM, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:

A chordnamemode *input* mode has been proposed a couple of times.   
This mode
would take only a root (and optionally, a slash or alternate bass  
note), and

everything else about the chord would be in the form of a markup.  For
american jazz chords, this functionality seems to be feasible (but it
couldn't handle the german practice of making minor chords have a  
lower case

root name, instead of an upper case root name for a major chord).


Carl succinctly illuminates another problem, which is that LilyPond  
works with many different musical systems.  I am only familiar with  
what he calls American jazz chords and would be out to sea if a  
German chart was placed in front of me- or one of the many other  
notation systems with which I am unfamiliar.  Heck, I am out to sea  
often enough with American jazz charts!  Any changes to the chordname  
function would need to be context-sensitive to the needs of many  
musical systems.


Would it be feasible to make differences in chord naming conventions  
part of language-specific files, like \include english.ly or \include  
german.ly etc.?  Or does that just end up resulting in multiple  
exceptions and complicating things immensely?



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/1/09 8:56 PM, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote:

 
 
 On Jun 1, 2009, at 2:33 PM, Carl D. Sorensen wrote:
 
 A chordnamemode *input* mode has been proposed a couple of times.
 This mode
 would take only a root (and optionally, a slash or alternate bass
 note), and
 everything else about the chord would be in the form of a markup.  For
 american jazz chords, this functionality seems to be feasible (but it
 couldn't handle the german practice of making minor chords have a
 lower case
 root name, instead of an upper case root name for a major chord).
 
 Carl succinctly illuminates another problem, which is that LilyPond
 works with many different musical systems.  I am only familiar with
 what he calls American jazz chords and would be out to sea if a
 German chart was placed in front of me- or one of the many other
 notation systems with which I am unfamiliar.  Heck, I am out to sea
 often enough with American jazz charts!  Any changes to the chordname
 function would need to be context-sensitive to the needs of many
 musical systems.
 
 Would it be feasible to make differences in chord naming conventions
 part of language-specific files, like \include english.ly or \include
 german.ly etc.?  Or does that just end up resulting in multiple
 exceptions and complicating things immensely?

I think this idea is interesting, but I would be opposed to it.  I use
nederlands (default) note names, but I want American chord names.

As long as we have a relatively simple command to change chord name modes,
I think we're OK.

Carl



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Re: Lilypond and Jazz chords

[Carl D. Sorensen]

On 6/1/09 1:45 PM, lasconic lasco...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 
 Hi,
 Just in case it can be helpful, someone (Karl) post a pdf he wrote on
 MuseScore (http://www.musescore.org) mailing list about chord name display.
 Musescore is a free GPL WYSIWYG scorewriter (with lilypond export
 capabilities)
 Maybe it can be helpful to your current and future work on chord names
 engraving for light music. Here is the discussion thread:
 http://n2.nabble.com/Setting-file-associations-for-Windows-td2729864i20.html#a
 2859233
 
 Here is the link to the pdf :
 http://www.njonjo.net/chordfonts/chordfonts.pdf
 

Thank your for this link.  It is always helpful to see what other people
propose for standards.

Personally, I don't like the look of this proposed standard.  I'm sure it
could be implemented in LilyPond, but I have seen other layouts that I find
more pleasing than this one.

Thanks,

Carl



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