Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Christ van Willegen]

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 3:25 PM, David Kastrup  wrote:
> Dos?  How newfangled.  I had to use the debugger to patch the terminal
> control sequences for my (text) terminal emulator under CP/M into
> WordStar.  Yes, the manual contained the patch locations and
> descriptions for the terminal sequences and geometry.

Hey, I remember that!

There were also patch areas to put in (miniscule) pieces of Assembly
for things like set-up of the terminal and stuff.

Totally off-topic and totally letting everyone know that I'm an old b*tard...

Christ van Willegen
-- 
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

"Peter Gentry"  writes:

> Actually I always thought WordStar was better than WordPerfect and
> still yearn for Dos and Basic.

Dos?  How newfangled.  I had to use the debugger to patch the terminal
control sequences for my (text) terminal emulator under CP/M into
WordStar.  Yes, the manual contained the patch locations and
descriptions for the terminal sequences and geometry.

It was only for later versions that a program was provided that asked
the respective questions about your terminal control sequences and did
the patching on its own.

> Progress is a wonderful thing, things just get more complex

I am not sure that configuration has become so much more difficult.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Peter Gentry]

Actually I always thought WordStar was better than WordPerfect and still yearn 
for Dos and Basic. Progress is a wonderful thing,
things just get more complex

regards
Peter Gentry 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Kieren MacMillan]

Hi Wol,

> imho [Word] STILL hasn't caught up with the dedicated word processing 
> programs for professionals (such as WordPerfect) which were around in the 80s 
> - thirty years ago!

Depends on your definition of “caught up”, I suppose.  ;)
In terms of the number of people who use it, there’s no competition: Word 
trampled WordPerfect years (maybe decades) ago.
In terms of the number of documents generated by it, same thing.
In terms of the likelihood of still being in use after the other application is 
discontinued, my money’s on Word.

We often forget that quality and usefulness are not synonymous — q.v. Beta (vs. 
VHS), WordPerfect (vs. Word), and, unfortunately, Lilypond (vs. all the other 
engraving apps).

Cheers,
Kieren.
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Anthonys Lists]

On 05/12/2013 02:09, Tim McNamara wrote:

Powerful software and simple software are usually mutually exclusive.  Compare 
Word, Pages and LaTeX, for example.  Pages is more elegant but can do a small 
fraction of what Word can do.  Word can't do a lot of things that LaTeX can.
Word is aimed at people who can't type (which is why it's so popular). 
imho it STILL hasn't caught up with the dedicated word processing 
programs for professionals (such as WordPerfect) which were around in 
the 80s - thirty years ago!


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Anthonys Lists  writes:

> Likewise, I have no trouble using lilypond's *P*D*F* manuals. My mind
> is very text-oriented. But I HATE HYPERTEXT. My IQ is off the scale
> (not really, but I'm in the top few percent of the population), but
> give me a web-site and if what I'm looking for is not staring me in
> the face, then I have difficulty finding it.

How do you get along with the documentation in Info format and TeX as
its info reader?

I'm interested because that's

a) hypertext
b) what I use predominantly
c) and I hate HTML documentation

but it features fast indexing, flat searches and instant response.  And
I get along very well with it, certainly better than with PDF.  Which
makes me suspect that it's not as much the "hypertext" aspect but rather
the typical browser representation and nabigation and speed that gets in
my way.

> So you can NOT conclude that a "reasonably intelligent" visitor will
> be able to find what they're looking for.

My usual way for handing out manual links is to first find them in Info
with Emacs (usually using the i command with specific keywords), then
use a search engine on key phrases in the right chapter for digging up
the web links.

> I'm "extremely intelligent" and I have difficulty. And I doubt I'm
> alone ...

See above.  But it's not "hypertext" per se but HTML and its browser
universe for me.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Anthonys Lists]

On 09/12/2013 06:12, James Harkins wrote:
My flippant response makes it sound like any reasonably intelligent 
person would find the right information fairly quickly, casting the 
problem in terms of user carelessness. That was a misstatement. My 
point is that reasonably intelligent, reasonably careful readers can 
visit lilypond.org and get from it no strong feeling for the 
importance of downloading a dedicated editor *in addition to* LilyPond 
itself.


Don't forget, also, that PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT. Off-topic slightly, but 
read Feynmann on keeping time in your head. The task was "count from 1 
to 60 in your head and keep consistent time". MOST people can do that 
while watching TV, come in bang on time, and answer questions on what 
they have seen. MOST people, if you hold a conversation with them, 
either they ignore you or their time-keeping goes to pot. Feynmann was 
surprised that some of his fellow students could hold a conversation no 
problem - but watching TV trashed their time-keeping!


Turns out MOST people count in their head using "silent talking". Make 
them talk, and they can't keep time. But SOME people watch a 
ticker-tape, and have no trouble talking. Disrupt their visual sense, 
however, and they're in trouble...


I answer a lot of questions on the SuperCollider mailing list -- a LOT 
of questions. Often the answers involve "See * in the 
documentation." At some points, I would get frustrated with this... 
"Why can't people find this information? Aren't they reading the help 
pages?" Then I realized, it's not that it all -- it's just that there 
are so many help pages that nobody can get intimately familiar with 
them quickly. I have something like a 10 year head start over new SC 
users in that regard. That's a valuable resource on my part, but not a 
failing on their part. 


Are the manual pages in a suitable format? I HATE Word, because its 
mental map is not mine. On the other hand, I switched to WordPerfect no 
trouble - it has a different mental map that meshes with mine almost 
perfectly. The more WP tries to ape Word, the harder it becomes for me 
to use it.


Likewise, I have no trouble using lilypond's *P*D*F* manuals. My mind is 
very text-oriented. But I HATE HYPERTEXT. My IQ is off the scale (not 
really, but I'm in the top few percent of the population), but give me a 
web-site and if what I'm looking for is not staring me in the face, then 
I have difficulty finding it.


So you can NOT conclude that a "reasonably intelligent" visitor will be  
able to find what they're looking for. I'm "extremely intelligent" and I 
have difficulty. And I doubt I'm alone ...


Cheers,
Wol
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 15:56 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Richard Shann  writes:
> 
> > I thought I would test out the binary that is on denemo.org and
> > downloaded it in a virtual machine running a vanilla Debian stable O/S,
> > the result: it will not even start. The executables ~/usr/bin/denemo and
> > ~/usr/bin/lilypond are present and have the right permissions but
> > attempting to execute them from the bash prompt results in a baffling
> > "No such file or directory" message:
> >
> >  ls -l denemo
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 1479840 Nov 25 23:00 denemo
> > rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./denemo
> > bash: ./denemo: No such file or directory
> > rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ 
> >
> > and then the same thing for lilypond:
> >
> > ls -l lilypond
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 4377128 Nov 25 23:00 lilypond
> > rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./lilypond
> > bash: ./lilypond: No such file or directory
> 
> That's typical if
> a) the file is an executable script
> b) it has a #! comment in its first characters
> c) the named executable in the #! comment does not exist

hmm, well they are Elf binary executables (I checked), and when I create
a small test script with a bad #! I get a much more helpful "bad
interpreter" error message when I try to execute it.

The scripts (as with LilyPond that do start #! /bin/sh) are in ~/bin and
they give the bizarre messages:

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><
 denemo
/home/rshann/bin/denemo: 41: /home/rshann/bin/denemo: cannot create : Directory 
nonexistent
/home/rshann/bin/denemo: 45: /home/rshann/bin/denemo: 
/home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/gtk-query-immodules-2.0: not found
/home/rshann/bin/denemo: 49: exec: /home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/denemo: not found
8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><

These seem of a piece with the attempts to get the executables to launch
directly - it is as if the command line interpreter is not a normal
shell. I see that it is a link to /bin/dash and indeed running the
script using bash instead I get a different error message.

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><
/bin/bash bin/denemo
bin/denemo: line 41: $GDK_PIXBUF_MODULE_FILE: ambiguous redirect
bin/denemo: line 49: /home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/denemo: No such file or 
directory
8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><

I've never tried delving into this stuff before, as I assumed it was
just my development environment interfering with the normal user
experience.
> 
> >> Do you have any users actually having success with the binary package
> >> on Ubuntu?  If not, telling people that the "ancient" versions
> >> delivered with the system itself are not to be used is creating a
> >> rather large barrier of entry.
> >
> > As I say, I am told that it is a Ubuntu system that it gets tested on,
> > but if would help if we got more feedback from users. I occasionally
> > get visits from people with apple macs and the mac versions have
> > worked on their machines and I test windows versions on two or three
> > machines with various flavors of their o/ses. A GNU/Linux binary you
> > would have thought would be easier than either of those to get working
> > ...  (As I wrote this I recalled that I have a small partition with
> > Ubuntu 12.04 installed, I rebooted and went through the same process
> > as with Debian Stable and got the same, bizarre result). I think we
> > need to warn people that they may well need to built it :(
> 
> It may also help to put the binary directory into PATH proper, like with
> export PATH="$PATH:$HOME/denemo/usr/bin"
> (don't use ~/denomo/... since that does not work reliably.)

Putting the path to the denemo and lilypond executables still does not
make them execute from the command line:

8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><
/bin/which denemo
/home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/denemo
rshann@DebianBox:~$ denemo
bash: /home/rshann/denemo/usr/bin/denemo: No such file or directory
8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><8><

this was done in my development environment, but now I'm fairly sure
that is not relevant. It appears to be the actual Elf executables that
cause the bizarre "No such file or directory" message, there is no
symbol "main" to stop them on, which would indicate that they are not
proper executables at all... some sort of trouble with the linker or
libtool I guess. But then why does it ever work (or do people quietly go
off and build from sources and not mention the problem?).

Richard




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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann  writes:

> I thought I would test out the binary that is on denemo.org and
> downloaded it in a virtual machine running a vanilla Debian stable O/S,
> the result: it will not even start. The executables ~/usr/bin/denemo and
> ~/usr/bin/lilypond are present and have the right permissions but
> attempting to execute them from the bash prompt results in a baffling
> "No such file or directory" message:
>
>  ls -l denemo
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 1479840 Nov 25 23:00 denemo
> rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./denemo
> bash: ./denemo: No such file or directory
> rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ 
>
> and then the same thing for lilypond:
>
> ls -l lilypond
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 4377128 Nov 25 23:00 lilypond
> rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./lilypond
> bash: ./lilypond: No such file or directory

That's typical if
a) the file is an executable script
b) it has a #! comment in its first characters
c) the named executable in the #! comment does not exist

>> Do you have any users actually having success with the binary package
>> on Ubuntu?  If not, telling people that the "ancient" versions
>> delivered with the system itself are not to be used is creating a
>> rather large barrier of entry.
>
> As I say, I am told that it is a Ubuntu system that it gets tested on,
> but if would help if we got more feedback from users. I occasionally
> get visits from people with apple macs and the mac versions have
> worked on their machines and I test windows versions on two or three
> machines with various flavors of their o/ses. A GNU/Linux binary you
> would have thought would be easier than either of those to get working
> ...  (As I wrote this I recalled that I have a small partition with
> Ubuntu 12.04 installed, I rebooted and went through the same process
> as with Debian Stable and got the same, bizarre result). I think we
> need to warn people that they may well need to built it :(

It may also help to put the binary directory into PATH proper, like with
export PATH="$PATH:$HOME/denemo/usr/bin"
(don't use ~/denomo/... since that does not work reliably.)

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 14:15 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Richard Shann  writes:
> 
> > On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 11:51 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> >> David Kastrup  writes:
> >> 
> >> _Very_ frustrating and unusable.  Complains about missing libraries when
> >> starting but those are available in Ubuntu.

I missed this bit when I replied before. Remarkable that it does
actually start then, in fact, bizarre, this is not a static executable
but a dynamic one with a bunch of shared libraries bundled in (like
LilyPond, in fact, built with the same GUB machinery).


> >> 
> >> Opens what feels like dozens of overlapping windows you first need to
> >> cleanup.
> >
> > Yes, this has annoyed all ponders who have tried the latest Denemo. I
> > guess they will have to stay closed on the first run. (Once you close
> > them they stay closed if you quit cleanly). It will then be up to the
> > user to find the palettes in the View menu and start exploring them.
> >
> >>   Refuses to compile anything, stating in the print preview
> >
> > I wonder why - it works for some distros out of the box - otherwise you
> > have to give the path to LilyPond in Edit->Change Prefs->Externals
> 
> Nope.  Not even with an explicit path to either 2.19.0 or 2.16.2.  Just
> displays the following screen shot.
> 
> Also seems to have some memory managing problems: the fonts in the
> windows displayed "E" instead of "k".

This does indeed look like memory corruption - the other symptoms you
give are not like anything I have seen with Denemo running correctly
either.
I thought I would test out the binary that is on denemo.org and
downloaded it in a virtual machine running a vanilla Debian stable O/S,
the result: it will not even start. The executables ~/usr/bin/denemo and
~/usr/bin/lilypond are present and have the right permissions but
attempting to execute them from the bash prompt results in a baffling
"No such file or directory" message:

 ls -l denemo
-rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 1479840 Nov 25 23:00 denemo
rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./denemo
bash: ./denemo: No such file or directory
rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ 

and then the same thing for lilypond:

ls -l lilypond
-rwxr-xr-x 1 rshanngub rshanngub 4377128 Nov 25 23:00 lilypond
rshanngub@debianGUB:~/denemo/usr/bin$ ./lilypond
bash: ./lilypond: No such file or directory

This is something I've seen before and assumed was to do with my
development environment. I think it gets tested on Ubuntu distributions
before being uploaded, and certainly it seems to get a bit further on
your distro. I can only appeal to anyone with a GNU/Linux system to test
it out.

> 
> >> window that LilyPond can't compile stuff (there is a version of LilyPond
> >> in the path).  One can open the LilyPond source file window (looks like
> >> it should work in 2.19.0), but Denemo refuses to open the "LilyPond
> >> error" window.
> >
> > It does actually open the LilyPond Errors pane, but as Denemo is unable
> > to run LilyPond that is empty.
> > The LilyPond Errors item is not a separate window but a pane in the
> > LilyPond view, it would be better if the toggle for this lived in the
> > LilyPond window.
> 
> No, there is no LilyPond error view, not in a pane or otherwise.
> 
> > Well as this is a LilyPond output window with no LilyPond executable
> > found this is not by itself surprising. It should tell you (once only)
> > that it didn't find LilyPond.
> 
> It's a text in the window, and it does not change.
> 
> >> So much for the binary install.  I am not too enthused about the
> >> prospect of having to compile from source just to be able to test
> >> basic functionality and possibly get a better clue about the intended
> >> startup behavior.
> >
> > For folk with compilers, autotools and so on already installed
> > building from source is painless - it is not like running GUB. The
> > list of packages needed is on the Download page. (Hmm, pretty
> > painless, but there is some squabble amongst the distros about
> > splitting up one library into two ...)
> >
> > I have put in bug reports for the problems you have unearthed - Thank
> > you!
> 
> Do you have any users actually having success with the binary package on
> Ubuntu?  If not, telling people that the "ancient" versions delivered
> with the system itself are not to be used is creating a rather large
> barrier of entry.

As I say, I am told that it is a Ubuntu system that it gets tested on,
but if would help if we got more feedback from users. I occasionally get
visits from people with apple macs and the mac versions have worked on
their machines and I test windows versions on two or three machines with
various flavors of their o/ses. A GNU/Linux binary you would have
thought would be easier than either of those to get working ...
(As I wrote this I recalled that I have a small partition with Ubuntu
12.04 installed, I rebooted and went through the same process as with
Debian Stable and got the same, bizarre result). I think we need 

Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 11:51 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> David Kastrup  writes:
> 
> > Richard Shann  writes:
> >
> >> On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 09:52 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> >>
> >>> Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
> >>> LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it,
> >>> you will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all,
> >>
> >> This is incorrect. If you double click on a note, repeat bar ... you
> >> are told the LilyPond syntax that this element has created. If you
> >> switch to the LilyPond view of the Denemo score you see the LilyPond
> >> syntax and can edit it. There are some limitations still in that
> >> editing (e.g.  changing a note to a different note is still not
> >> possible, and there is no syntax highlighting, but you can re-write
> >> entirely the score layout starting from the default).
> >
> > Ok ok, I guess I'll get the Midi-equipped accordion from the storage,
> > see whether any contacts are stuck, install a current version of Denemo
> > and get myself informed.
> 
> _Very_ frustrating and unusable.  Complains about missing libraries when
> starting but those are available in Ubuntu.
> 
> Opens what feels like dozens of overlapping windows you first need to
> cleanup.

Yes, this has annoyed all ponders who have tried the latest Denemo. I
guess they will have to stay closed on the first run. (Once you close
them they stay closed if you quit cleanly). It will then be up to the
user to find the palettes in the View menu and start exploring them.

>   Refuses to compile anything, stating in the print preview

I wonder why - it works for some distros out of the box - otherwise you
have to give the path to LilyPond in Edit->Change Prefs->Externals

> window that LilyPond can't compile stuff (there is a version of LilyPond
> in the path).  One can open the LilyPond source file window (looks like
> it should work in 2.19.0), but Denemo refuses to open the "LilyPond
> error" window.

It does actually open the LilyPond Errors pane, but as Denemo is unable
to run LilyPond that is empty.
The LilyPond Errors item is not a separate window but a pane in the
LilyPond view, it would be better if the toggle for this lived in the
LilyPond window.


>   So it is impossible to figure out _why_ compilation
> fails.  On stderr, there is a flurry of messages like
> 
> ** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
> file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: 
> No such file or directory
[,,,]
> 
> which is probably related to the problem in some kind: there is no
> directory DenemooneMNfd anywhere and I don't see why it should.
> 
> This was using the Denemo 1.1 installer for GNU/Linux from the Denemo
> download page, on an Ubuntu 13.10 installation.
> 
> It seems pretty much unusable.

well, it is until it has found LilyPond. 

>   I can enter notes, but I don't get
> anywhere with trying to generate output.  The print preview has several
> buttons labelled things like "Print" and other, and it is totally
> unclear what they will actually do.

If you hover over them the tooltip will tell you. When you get tired of
the tooltips popping up so quickly and obtrusively you cut out the real
newbie ones from the Help menu and alter the time to pop up tooltips
from the Preferences menu.


>   Pressing them does not cause any
> effect (apart from error messages on stderr).

Well as this is a LilyPond output window with no LilyPond executable
found this is not by itself surprising. It should tell you (once only)
that it didn't find LilyPond.

> 
> So much for the binary install.  I am not too enthused about the
> prospect of having to compile from source just to be able to test basic
> functionality and possibly get a better clue about the intended startup
> behavior.

For folk with compilers, autotools and so on already installed building
from source is painless - it is not like running GUB. The list of
packages needed is on the Download page. (Hmm, pretty painless, but
there is some squabble amongst the distros about splitting up one
library into two ...)

I have put in bug reports for the problems you have unearthed - Thank
you!

Richard











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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

David Kastrup  writes:

> ** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file
> file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening
> file: No such file or directory
>
> starting to generate LilyPond
>
> finished generating LilyPond
>
>
> which is probably related to the problem in some kind: there is no
> directory DenemooneMNfd anywhere and I don't see why it should.

Now I have to take that one back: there is such a directory:
dak@lola:~$ ls /tmp/DenemoneMNfd/
denemoprintA.ly  denemoprintB.ly

I just happened to type the ls command in a window logged into a
different computer.

The rest is pretty much as described.

> This was using the Denemo 1.1 installer for GNU/Linux from the Denemo
> download page, on an Ubuntu 13.10 installation.
>
> It seems pretty much unusable.  I can enter notes, but I don't get
> anywhere with trying to generate output.  The print preview has several
> buttons labelled things like "Print" and other, and it is totally
> unclear what they will actually do.  Pressing them does not cause any
> effect (apart from error messages on stderr).
>
> So much for the binary install.  I am not too enthused about the
> prospect of having to compile from source just to be able to test basic
> functionality and possibly get a better clue about the intended startup
> behavior.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

David Kastrup  writes:

> Richard Shann  writes:
>
>> On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 09:52 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>>
>>> Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
>>> LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it,
>>> you will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all,
>>
>> This is incorrect. If you double click on a note, repeat bar ... you
>> are told the LilyPond syntax that this element has created. If you
>> switch to the LilyPond view of the Denemo score you see the LilyPond
>> syntax and can edit it. There are some limitations still in that
>> editing (e.g.  changing a note to a different note is still not
>> possible, and there is no syntax highlighting, but you can re-write
>> entirely the score layout starting from the default).
>
> Ok ok, I guess I'll get the Midi-equipped accordion from the storage,
> see whether any contacts are stuck, install a current version of Denemo
> and get myself informed.

_Very_ frustrating and unusable.  Complains about missing libraries when
starting but those are available in Ubuntu.

Opens what feels like dozens of overlapping windows you first need to
cleanup.  Refuses to compile anything, stating in the print preview
window that LilyPond can't compile stuff (there is a version of LilyPond
in the path).  One can open the LilyPond source file window (looks like
it should work in 2.19.0), but Denemo refuses to open the "LilyPond
error" window.  So it is impossible to figure out _why_ compilation
fails.  On stderr, there is a flurry of messages like

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintB.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory
Switched to Default Score Layout

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintB.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintB.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond

** (denemo:6378): WARNING **: Trying to read the pdf file 
file:///tmp/DenemoneMNfd/denemoprintA.pdf gave an error: Error opening file: No 
such file or directory

starting to generate LilyPond

finished generating LilyPond


which is probably related to the problem in some kind: there is no
directory DenemooneMNfd anywhere and I don't see why it should.

This was using the Denemo 1.1 installer for GNU/Linux from the Denemo
download page, on an Ubuntu 13.10 installation.

It seems pretty much unusable.  I can enter notes, but I don't get
anywhere with trying to generate output.  The print preview has several
buttons labelled things like "Print" and other, and it is totally
unclear what they will actually do.  Pressing them does not cause any
effect (apart from error messages on stderr).

So much for the binary install.  I am not too enthused about the
prospect of having to compile from source just to be able to test basic
functionality and possibly get a better clue about the intended startup
behavior.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann  writes:

> On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 09:52 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
>
>> Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
>> LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it,
>> you will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all,
>
> This is incorrect. If you double click on a note, repeat bar ... you
> are told the LilyPond syntax that this element has created. If you
> switch to the LilyPond view of the Denemo score you see the LilyPond
> syntax and can edit it. There are some limitations still in that
> editing (e.g.  changing a note to a different note is still not
> possible, and there is no syntax highlighting, but you can re-write
> entirely the score layout starting from the default).

Ok ok, I guess I'll get the Midi-equipped accordion from the storage,
see whether any contacts are stuck, install a current version of Denemo
and get myself informed.

>>  and the LilyPond documentation will be mostly irrelevant.
>
> I think this is not so either: it is slightly daft that you need to
> run the insert LilyPond command in the main Denemo display rather than
> in the LilyPond view in order to start inserting text, but the
> LilyPond syntax is entirely relevant if you want to do things that
> Denemo does not have built in. Ok, so it is mostly irrelevant if you
> just want to do things that Denemo has built in, but I am sure you
> have written all that other LilyPond syntax for very good reasons :)

How does Denemo's relation to LilyPond compare to LyX's with LaTeX?
Anybody here who knows both?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 09:52 +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> James Harkins  writes:
> 
> > Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in
> > mind. Although, he suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I
> > think it could be more than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads
> > with a couple of paragraphs across the top:
> >
> > ~~
> > IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two
> > components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed
> > only one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.
> 
> That's nonsensical.  You'll be experiencing LilyPond's full power if and
> only if you have LilyPond itself installed.
> 
> > NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system, review
> > the editors in the right-hand column and install one of them. Use the
> > editor as your primary LilyPond interface.
> 
> Again: I think the graphical environments should cater for
> downloading/installing LilyPond itself, and at least Denemo currently
> seems to do this, while Frescobaldi is quite open to that.
> 
> As long as its developers are actively participating on this list and
> interested in making things easier for the users, I'd lean towards
> something like:
> 
> LilyPond is a _command_ _line_ application translating files written in
> LilyPond's music description language [see text input] into complete
> scores.  It does _not_ constitute a work environment.  What you will be
> working with for entering your scores is either a text editor of your
> choice, or a tool specialized for creating LilyPond files.
> 
> Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
> LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it, you
> will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all,

This is incorrect. If you double click on a note, repeat bar ... you are
told the LilyPond syntax that this element has created. If you switch to
the LilyPond view of the Denemo score you see the LilyPond syntax and
can edit it. There are some limitations still in that editing (e.g.
changing a note to a different note is still not possible, and there is
no syntax highlighting, but you can re-write entirely the score layout
starting from the default).


>  and the LilyPond
> documentation will be mostly irrelevant.

I think this is not so either: it is slightly daft that you need to run
the insert LilyPond command in the main Denemo display rather than in
the LilyPond view in order to start inserting text, but the LilyPond
syntax is entirely relevant if you want to do things that Denemo does
not have built in. Ok, so it is mostly irrelevant if you just want to do
things that Denemo has built in, but I am sure you have written all that
other LilyPond syntax for very good reasons :)

Richard


>   Since it has a number of input
> methods as well as Midi input, it may also be used as an input tool for
> entering the bulk of your music material first and exporting it to
> native LilyPond format for further editing.
>   If you employ it in this
> manner, you will still need an editor suitable for working directly with
> the LilyPond language.  Denemo already includes a version of LilyPond
> and can be downloaded here [Download from external link].
> 
> Frescobaldi: this is a specialized editor with lots of support for
> creating and maintaining scores in the LilyPond language itself.  As
> opposed to Denemo, you'll be responsible for writing every bit, and your
> main reference will be the LilyPond documentation which is also
> accessible from within Frescobaldi.  Frescobaldi can download and
> install any version of LilyPond itself via the .../... menu and is
> available here [Download from external link].
> 
> LilyPond: command line driven compiler of the LilyPond language.  If you
> want to install just LilyPond itself and will be working with an editor
> of your choice, you can download it from here [Download]
> 
> Something like that.
> 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 09.12.2013 10:15, schrieb James Harkins:

Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
LilyPond internally for creating its output.


I think this is too much to ask people to read on the download page. 
The download page should be as simple as possible and direct people 
toward the resources they need. Much more than that, and you get into 
TL;DR territory. Linking directly from the proposed "editors" section 
of the download page to the "Easier editing" page would be more 
appropriate, I think.


What we want users to get is the idea that they will need *some* 
editor, which the download page can do in a compact way. Providing a 
brain-dead easy "can't miss it" link to profiles of the various 
editors, and links directly to the Denemo and Frescobaldi homepages, 
would be enough.




I will use most of David's suggestion quite literally but will see how 
to distribute it on the different pages.


Urs
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[James Harkins]

On Monday, December 9, 2013 4:52:08 PM HKT, David Kastrup wrote:

James Harkins  writes:


Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in
mind. Although, he suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I
think it could be more than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads
with a couple of paragraphs across the top:

~~
IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two
components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed
only one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.


That's nonsensical.  You'll be experiencing LilyPond's full power if and
only if you have LilyPond itself installed.



That's splitting hairs, isn't it? If you install only an editor, you'll get 
0% of LilyPond's power. This is, indeed, less than "full power." My wording 
underestimates the severity of failing to install LilyPond, but one would 
hope (of all possible details to omit) that this might go without saying.




LilyPond is a _command_ _line_ application translating files written in
LilyPond's music description language [see text input] into complete
scores.  It does _not_ constitute a work environment.  What you will be
working with for entering your scores is either a text editor of your
choice, or a tool specialized for creating LilyPond files.


Sure, that sounds good.


Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
LilyPond internally for creating its output.


I think this is too much to ask people to read on the download page. The 
download page should be as simple as possible and direct people toward the 
resources they need. Much more than that, and you get into TL;DR territory. 
Linking directly from the proposed "editors" section of the download page 
to the "Easier editing" page would be more appropriate, I think.


What we want users to get is the idea that they will need *some* editor, 
which the download page can do in a compact way. Providing a brain-dead 
easy "can't miss it" link to profiles of the various editors, and links 
directly to the Denemo and Frescobaldi homepages, would be enough.


hjh

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Mon, 2013-12-09 at 00:10 +0100, Federico Bruni wrote:
> 2013/12/5 Richard Shann 
> The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in.
> Not sure
> about the GNU/Linux one.
> 
> 
> I would bet that it's not built in.

I just checked, and the GNU/Linux one does in fact have lilypond built
in. (It is not surprising - once you have got GUB working you are not
going to start unpicking the installer to give the user more to do)


> In debian lilypond is recommended, it's not a dependency of denemo:
> 
> 
> $ apt-cache depends denemo | grep lilypond
>   Recommends: lilypond

This is nothing to do with these Denemo binaries (or the LilyPond ones
either), these binaries are just user programs - another user cannot
even execute them without the original installer changing the
permissions.
They don't affect your system stability and so on for that reason - the
cost is disk space, you have copies under your home directory of many
libraries and executables that you have already installed in the system.
Indeed if you use the LilyPond installer as well (and point Denemo to
use that) you will have e.g. three versions of ghostscript, one
in /usr/bin one in ~/lilypond/usr/bin and one in ~/denemo/usr/bin

Richard


> 
> 
> BUT
> Note that apt-get now installs recommended packages as default and is
> the preferred program for package management from console to perform
> system installation and major system upgrades for its robustness.
> 
> Source:
>  http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkgtools.en.html
> 
> 
> 
> 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

James Harkins  writes:

> Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in
> mind. Although, he suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I
> think it could be more than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads
> with a couple of paragraphs across the top:
>
> ~~
> IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two
> components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed
> only one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.

That's nonsensical.  You'll be experiencing LilyPond's full power if and
only if you have LilyPond itself installed.

> NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system, review
> the editors in the right-hand column and install one of them. Use the
> editor as your primary LilyPond interface.

Again: I think the graphical environments should cater for
downloading/installing LilyPond itself, and at least Denemo currently
seems to do this, while Frescobaldi is quite open to that.

As long as its developers are actively participating on this list and
interested in making things easier for the users, I'd lean towards
something like:

LilyPond is a _command_ _line_ application translating files written in
LilyPond's music description language [see text input] into complete
scores.  It does _not_ constitute a work environment.  What you will be
working with for entering your scores is either a text editor of your
choice, or a tool specialized for creating LilyPond files.

Denemo: this is a GUI application for writing music scores that uses
LilyPond internally for creating its output.  While working with it, you
will not be exposed to the LilyPond language at all, and the LilyPond
documentation will be mostly irrelevant.  Since it has a number of input
methods as well as Midi input, it may also be used as an input tool for
entering the bulk of your music material first and exporting it to
native LilyPond format for further editing.  If you employ it in this
manner, you will still need an editor suitable for working directly with
the LilyPond language.  Denemo already includes a version of LilyPond
and can be downloaded here [Download from external link].

Frescobaldi: this is a specialized editor with lots of support for
creating and maintaining scores in the LilyPond language itself.  As
opposed to Denemo, you'll be responsible for writing every bit, and your
main reference will be the LilyPond documentation which is also
accessible from within Frescobaldi.  Frescobaldi can download and
install any version of LilyPond itself via the .../... menu and is
available here [Download from external link].

LilyPond: command line driven compiler of the LilyPond language.  If you
want to install just LilyPond itself and will be working with an editor
of your choice, you can download it from here [Download]

Something like that.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 09.12.2013 07:28, schrieb Carl Peterson:
On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:12 AM, James Harkins > wrote:


Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in mind.
Although, he suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I
think it could be more than that. Suppose we introduce the
downloads with a couple of paragraphs across the top:

~~
IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of
two components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have
installed only one of these, then you're not experiencing
LilyPond's full power.

NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system,
review the editors in the right-hand column and install one of
them. Use the editor as your primary LilyPond interface.
~~


I didn't intend my statement to be intended as my thinking it is only 
a slight improvement. I meant primarily that regardless of however 
slight it *might* be, it is an improvement, nonetheless.


The page flow I usually see is something like:

Front page --> Download page.

We have most of that. I think we need to find some way to make the 
front-ends like Frescobaldi and Denemo clearly visible on the 
downloads page. Go ahead and put in the disclaimer that these aren't 
maintained by the LP project itself (just to try to stave off confusion).


I see the following needs:

a)
Do what you (and some others) say above: Edit the text of the "Download" 
page to make explicit that you _do_ need _any_ editing environment and 
that this is separate from the LilyPond download.


b)
Rename "Easier Editing" to "Editing"
After all, that's what we're talking about here. While technically you 
could argue "Editing" can be done with any text editor and "Easier 
Editing" is done with dedicated tools this isn't relevant for someone 
looking for initial information.
If I were looking at the website the first time I'd probably think: 
"Easier Editing? OK, let's give the default tools a try first. If I 
decide to stick with that program I can always go back and look for 
"easier Editing"."


c)
Add an introductory text at the top of the "Editing" page.

d)
(_slightly_ OT, but important anyway: improve the structure on the 
"Introduction" and "Features" page from the perspective of that 
imaginary new user.


The question that remains in my mind is whether it is more beneficial 
to redirect to the project site (to get specific install instructions) 
or to hotlink the install binaries. It's been awhile since I've 
installed an LP front-end  to remember whether there are particular 
installation things that have to happen outside of download and run (I 
know there is for Frescobaldi for Mac, as has been discussed numerous 
times on this list). Perhaps coordinate with the people on the 
respective projects to arrange for a download link that always 
provides the latest stable version?


I suggest to link to the project page in any case.
If it's possible to link to a "latest stable binary" then do this 
additionally.


Urs
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Carl Peterson]

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 1:12 AM, James Harkins  wrote:

> Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in mind. Although, he
> suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I think it could be more
> than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads with a couple of paragraphs
> across the top:
>
> ~~
> IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two
> components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed only
> one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.
>
> NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system, review the
> editors in the right-hand column and install one of them. Use the editor as
> your primary LilyPond interface.
> ~~
>

I didn't intend my statement to be intended as my thinking it is only a
slight improvement. I meant primarily that regardless of however slight it
*might* be, it is an improvement, nonetheless.

The page flow I usually see is something like:

Front page --> Download page.

We have most of that. I think we need to find some way to make the
front-ends like Frescobaldi and Denemo clearly visible on the downloads
page. Go ahead and put in the disclaimer that these aren't maintained by
the LP project itself (just to try to stave off confusion). The question
that remains in my mind is whether it is more beneficial to redirect to the
project site (to get specific install instructions) or to hotlink the
install binaries. It's been awhile since I've installed an LP front-end  to
remember whether there are particular installation things that have to
happen outside of download and run (I know there is for Frescobaldi for
Mac, as has been discussed numerous times on this list). Perhaps coordinate
with the people on the respective projects to arrange for a download link
that always provides the latest stable version?

As I'm beginning to learn my way around the website source files, I'd be
willing to help out in implementing whatever is decided, once I get to a
good spot on the rest of my list for site formatting.
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

As mentioned earlier, I'm currently trying to review the "entry path" on 
lilypond.org, particularly from the potential new user perspective.

Thank you all for these opinions that I'll take into account.

Urs



James Harkins  schrieb:
>On Monday, December 9, 2013 12:02:31 PM HKT, James Harkins wrote:
>> On Dec 9, 2013 11:52 AM, "Mark Stephen Mrotek" 
>
>wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mr. Harkins,
>>> 
>>> Two or three hops are not too much for anyone that reads and follows
>> directions.
>>
>> Then you have more faith than I in general usage patterns on the 
>internet.
>> (As in, you still think people read and follow directions online.)
>
>Hm, actually, I take that back.
>
>The more relevant point is that it takes time to build up a mental map
>of 
>information on a website or in a reference book. When you've already
>looked 
>around lilypond.org for some time (once in a while over a period of a 
>couple of years, say), it seems quite obvious to reach the "easier
>editing" 
>page by way of two other clicks. If you're coming to the site for the
>first 
>time, even in just those two clicks, there are plenty of places to go 
>astray.
>
>  - Download page (assuming someone actually wants to try it, this is
>where she will go next)
>- The eye goes immediately to the logos for operating
>  systems. That's normal -- usually, when you're downloading
>  software, you're focused on finding the file for your OS.
>- "Before downloading LilyPond, please read about our Text input."
>  Clear enough to follow -- but, there's an assumption here that
>  the reader will have an inkling of how crucial this page
>  is. Without that intuition, I think it's fairly easy to skip
>  this link.
>
>  - Text input page
>- "Easier editing" is one of some 10 links in the navigation
>  bars. Unlikely to draw attention here.
>- "Text input"'s focus is on the input format. It doesn't give a
>  potential user a clear picture of the system architecture, in
>  which the editor is one program and the compiler is another (not
>  even in the "Easier editing environments" section of text). Even
>  a careful reader couldn't be blamed for coming away from this
>  without a clear understanding of how important it is to have a
>  good editor for LP code.
>
>My flippant response makes it sound like any reasonably intelligent
>person 
>would find the right information fairly quickly, casting the problem in
>
>terms of user carelessness. That was a misstatement. My point is that 
>reasonably intelligent, reasonably careful readers can visit
>lilypond.org 
>and get from it no strong feeling for the importance of downloading a 
>dedicated editor *in addition to* LilyPond itself.
>
>I answer a lot of questions on the SuperCollider mailing list -- a LOT
>of 
>questions. Often the answers involve "See * in the documentation."
>At 
>some points, I would get frustrated with this... "Why can't people find
>
>this information? Aren't they reading the help pages?" Then I realized,
>
>it's not that it all -- it's just that there are so many help pages
>that 
>nobody can get intimately familiar with them quickly. I have something
>like 
>a 10 year head start over new SC users in that regard. That's a
>valuable 
>resource on my part, but not a failing on their part.
>
>Anyway, back to the thread topic: If Windows users get scared off by
>the 
>fact that double-clicking LilyPond.exe does not present a working 
>environment, and if they expect that result from double-clicking 
>LilyPond.exe, then they aren't getting sufficient information about the
>
>structure of the working environment from lilypond.org. A minor
>redesign of 
>the Download page would help a lot with that.
>
>Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in mind. Although,
>he 
>suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I think it could be
>more 
>than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads with a couple of
>paragraphs 
>across the top:
>
>~~
>IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two 
>components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed
>only 
>one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.
>
>NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system, review
>the 
>editors in the right-hand column and install one of them. Use the
>editor as 
>your primary LilyPond interface.
>~~
>
>hjh
>
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[James Harkins]

On Monday, December 9, 2013 12:02:31 PM HKT, James Harkins wrote:
On Dec 9, 2013 11:52 AM, "Mark Stephen Mrotek"  

wrote:


Mr. Harkins,

Two or three hops are not too much for anyone that reads and follows

directions.

Then you have more faith than I in general usage patterns on the 

internet.

(As in, you still think people read and follow directions online.)


Hm, actually, I take that back.

The more relevant point is that it takes time to build up a mental map of 
information on a website or in a reference book. When you've already looked 
around lilypond.org for some time (once in a while over a period of a 
couple of years, say), it seems quite obvious to reach the "easier editing" 
page by way of two other clicks. If you're coming to the site for the first 
time, even in just those two clicks, there are plenty of places to go 
astray.


 - Download page (assuming someone actually wants to try it, this is
   where she will go next)
   - The eye goes immediately to the logos for operating
 systems. That's normal -- usually, when you're downloading
 software, you're focused on finding the file for your OS.
   - "Before downloading LilyPond, please read about our Text input."
 Clear enough to follow -- but, there's an assumption here that
 the reader will have an inkling of how crucial this page
 is. Without that intuition, I think it's fairly easy to skip
 this link.

 - Text input page
   - "Easier editing" is one of some 10 links in the navigation
 bars. Unlikely to draw attention here.
   - "Text input"'s focus is on the input format. It doesn't give a
 potential user a clear picture of the system architecture, in
 which the editor is one program and the compiler is another (not
 even in the "Easier editing environments" section of text). Even
 a careful reader couldn't be blamed for coming away from this
 without a clear understanding of how important it is to have a
 good editor for LP code.

My flippant response makes it sound like any reasonably intelligent person 
would find the right information fairly quickly, casting the problem in 
terms of user carelessness. That was a misstatement. My point is that 
reasonably intelligent, reasonably careful readers can visit lilypond.org 
and get from it no strong feeling for the importance of downloading a 
dedicated editor *in addition to* LilyPond itself.


I answer a lot of questions on the SuperCollider mailing list -- a LOT of 
questions. Often the answers involve "See * in the documentation." At 
some points, I would get frustrated with this... "Why can't people find 
this information? Aren't they reading the help pages?" Then I realized, 
it's not that it all -- it's just that there are so many help pages that 
nobody can get intimately familiar with them quickly. I have something like 
a 10 year head start over new SC users in that regard. That's a valuable 
resource on my part, but not a failing on their part.


Anyway, back to the thread topic: If Windows users get scared off by the 
fact that double-clicking LilyPond.exe does not present a working 
environment, and if they expect that result from double-clicking 
LilyPond.exe, then they aren't getting sufficient information about the 
structure of the working environment from lilypond.org. A minor redesign of 
the Download page would help a lot with that.


Carl's two-column approach is pretty much what I had in mind. Although, he 
suggests this would be only a slight improvement. I think it could be more 
than that. Suppose we introduce the downloads with a couple of paragraphs 
across the top:


~~
IMPORTANT: A complete working environment for LilyPond consists of two 
components: LilyPond itself, and a music editor. If you have installed only 
one of these, then you're not experiencing LilyPond's full power.


NEW USERS: After installing LilyPond for your operating system, review the 
editors in the right-hand column and install one of them. Use the editor as 
your primary LilyPond interface.

~~

hjh

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RE: A thought on Windows Experience

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Mr. Peterson,

 

Thank you for your reply and conciliatory suggestion.

 

Mark

From: Carl Peterson [mailto:carlopeter...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 8:27 PM
To: jamshar...@dewdrop-world.net
Cc: Mark Stephen Mrotek; Mailinglist lilypond-user
Subject: RE: A thought on Windows Experience

 


On Dec 8, 2013 11:02 PM, "James Harkins"  wrote:
>
> On Dec 9, 2013 11:52 AM, "Mark Stephen Mrotek" 
wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Harkins,
> >
> > Two or three hops are not too much for anyone that reads and follows
directions.
>
> Then you have more faith than I in general usage patterns on the internet.
(As in, you still think people read and follow directions online.)
>
> 
The easier approach might be to consolidate program downloads on one page.
Two column format, offering LP downloads on the left side, text edit helps
on the right. The chance of a new user downloading Frescobaldi or another
tool is increased, however slightly. The odds of a user getting to a desired
page decreases dramatically with each additional click required.

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RE: A thought on Windows Experience

[Carl Peterson]

On Dec 8, 2013 11:02 PM, "James Harkins"  wrote:
>
> On Dec 9, 2013 11:52 AM, "Mark Stephen Mrotek" 
wrote:
> >
> > Mr. Harkins,
> >
> > Two or three hops are not too much for anyone that reads and follows
directions.
>
> Then you have more faith than I in general usage patterns on the
internet. (As in, you still think people read and follow directions online.)
>
>
The easier approach might be to consolidate program downloads on one page.
Two column format, offering LP downloads on the left side, text edit helps
on the right. The chance of a new user downloading Frescobaldi or another
tool is increased, however slightly. The odds of a user getting to a
desired page decreases dramatically with each additional click required.
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RE: A thought on Windows Experience

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Mr. Harkins,

 

Perhaps my faith is not so much an problem as is your cynicism.  

 

Mark

 

From: James Harkins [mailto:jamshar...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 8:03 PM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek
Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: RE: A thought on Windows Experience

 

On Dec 9, 2013 11:52 AM, "Mark Stephen Mrotek"  wrote:
>
> Mr. Harkins,
>
> Two or three hops are not too much for anyone that reads and follows
directions.

Then you have more faith than I in general usage patterns on the internet.
(As in, you still think people read and follow directions online.)

hjh

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RE: A thought on Windows Experience

[James Harkins]

On Dec 9, 2013 11:52 AM, "Mark Stephen Mrotek"  wrote:
>
> Mr. Harkins,
>
> Two or three hops are not too much for anyone that reads and follows
directions.

Then you have more faith than I in general usage patterns on the internet.
(As in, you still think people read and follow directions online.)

hjh
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RE: A thought on Windows Experience

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Mr. Harkins,

Two or three hops are not too much for anyone that reads and follows directions.

Mark Stephen Mrotek

-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org 
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of James 
Harkins
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 7:30 PM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience

Mark Stephen Mrotek  ca.rr.com> writes:

> The Lilypond website presents “Manuals” that when clicked displays a 
> page
that starts with “Text Input … Read this first.”
> That hot link goes to a page that has a section titled “Easier editing
environments.” A hot link takes one to a list including Frescobaldi.
> I cannot conceive of anything more straight forward.

I can. New users are likely to start with a download. So, the downloads page 
could include a section that explains what it means to download only LilyPond. 
Here is the most straightforward place to point to Frescobaldi/Denemo/etc.

OK, the download page has a link to "Text input" (which people are likely to 
ignore, because they're on this page looking for files to download -- if it 
doesn't look like an installer, it won't draw attention):

~~
Note: LilyPond is a text-based music engraver; it is more similar to a 
programming language than a graphical score editing program. Before downloading 
LilyPond, please read about our Text input.
~~

Downloads --> Text input --> Easier editing *if* they read the page carefully.

Sorry, but two or three hops is not the most straightforward path.

hjh


PS:

Thick Prince to Blackadder: "I say, I can't think of anything I could do with a 
woman that I couldn't do with you."

Blackadder: "I cannot conceive."


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[James Harkins]

Mark Stephen Mrotek  ca.rr.com> writes:

> The Lilypond website presents “Manuals” that when clicked displays a page
that starts with “Text Input … Read this first.”
> That hot link goes to a page that has a section titled “Easier editing
environments.” A hot link takes one to a list including Frescobaldi.
> I cannot conceive of anything more straight forward.

I can. New users are likely to start with a download. So, the downloads page
could include a section that explains what it means to download only
LilyPond. Here is the most straightforward place to point to
Frescobaldi/Denemo/etc.

OK, the download page has a link to "Text input" (which people are likely to
ignore, because they're on this page looking for files to download -- if it
doesn't look like an installer, it won't draw attention):

~~
Note: LilyPond is a text-based music engraver; it is more similar to a
programming language than a graphical score editing program. Before
downloading LilyPond, please read about our Text input.
~~

Downloads --> Text input --> Easier editing *if* they read the page carefully.

Sorry, but two or three hops is not the most straightforward path.

hjh


PS:

Thick Prince to Blackadder: "I say, I can't think of anything I could do
with a woman that I couldn't do with you."

Blackadder: "I cannot conceive."


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RE: A thought on Windows Experience

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Hello, 

 

I understand that I should intersperse my comments below.

 

From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Urs
Liska
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2013 3:03 PM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience

 

Am 08.12.2013 23:59, schrieb Federico Bruni:

2013/12/5 Trevor Daniels 





I agree strongly with both these points.  Two things are needed:

a) Augment Fresco on installation to prompt and help users to
download and install LilyPond.  I think Urs is considering doing
this.  Maybe do the same with Denemo.  These then become the
primary LP entry points for new users.

 

In a previous response to this issue, I mentioned that on my Windows (7) a
double click on a ".ly" file quickly opens Frescobaldi that displays the
corresponding code. 



b) Modify the LilyPond website and Learning Manual to point
strongly to Fresobaldi and maybe Denemo as the recommended
starting points for new users, rather than downloading just LP.

 

The Lilypond website presents "Manuals" that when clicked displays a page
that starts with "Text Input . Read this first."

That hot link goes to a page that has a section titled "Easier editing
environments." A hot link takes one to a list including Frescobaldi.

I cannot conceive of anything more straight forward.

 

Mark Stephen Mrotek

 






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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Federico Bruni]

2013/12/5 Richard Shann 

> The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure
> about the GNU/Linux one.
>

I would bet that it's not built in.
In debian lilypond is recommended, it's not a dependency of denemo:

$ apt-cache depends denemo | grep lilypond
  Recommends: lilypond

BUT

Note that apt-get now installs recommended packages as default and is the
preferred program for package management from console to perform system
installation and major system upgrades for its robustness.
Source:  http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-pkgtools.en.html
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 08.12.2013 23:59, schrieb Federico Bruni:
2013/12/5 Trevor Daniels >



David Kastrup wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:17 AM


> Janek Warcho? mailto:janek.lilyp...@gmail.com>> writes:
>
>> I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful
>> editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of
LilyPond
>> right away.
>
> For better or worse, I think that the interactive task of
> managing LilyPond versions is better placed with the editors
which are
> supposed to interact with the user than the other way round.

I agree strongly with both these points.  Two things are needed:

a) Augment Fresco on installation to prompt and help users to
download and install LilyPond.  I think Urs is considering doing
this.  Maybe do the same with Denemo.  These then become the
primary LP entry points for new users.

b) Modify the LilyPond website and Learning Manual to point
strongly to Fresobaldi and maybe Denemo as the recommended
starting points for new users, rather than downloading just LP.


Added the issue 3716:
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3716




I'm currently working on b)
And I intend to do a) too, I think it will be possible to be included in 
the next Frescobaldi release.


Urs
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Federico Bruni]

2013/12/5 Trevor Daniels 

>
> David Kastrup wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:17 AM
>
>
> > Janek Warchoł  writes:
> >
> >> I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful
> >> editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond
> >> right away.
> >
> > For better or worse, I think that the interactive task of
> > managing LilyPond versions is better placed with the editors which are
> > supposed to interact with the user than the other way round.
>
> I agree strongly with both these points.  Two things are needed:
>
> a) Augment Fresco on installation to prompt and help users to
> download and install LilyPond.  I think Urs is considering doing
> this.  Maybe do the same with Denemo.  These then become the
> primary LP entry points for new users.
>
> b) Modify the LilyPond website and Learning Manual to point
> strongly to Fresobaldi and maybe Denemo as the recommended
> starting points for new users, rather than downloading just LP.
>

Added the issue 3716:
https://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=3716
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 07.12.2013 23:57, schrieb David Kastrup:

I would imagine that it works best when one instance of Frescobaldi is
able to install several versions of LilyPond.  If those in turn try
installing Frescobaldi, this is not likely going to end well.

I would say so too.
Given that Denemo _contains_ one LilyPond instance already this looks 
like the best solution.
I think we'll manage to get a working solution until Frescobaldi's next 
release.
Frescobaldi would then try to detect an existing LilyPond installation 
on first startup (if it can't be included in the installer) and suggest 
to download and install it.
If that's in place it should be fairly easy to let it also manage 
fetching new LilyPond versions on request.


Urs

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Noeck  writes:

> Am 07.12.2013 17:17, schrieb Janek Warchoł:
>> 2013/12/7 Phil Holmes :
>>> Links and recommendations - fine, great, wonderful.  Bundled install?  No
>>> way - that's when I'd stop being release manager and when I'd freeze at the
>>> current LilyPond install.
>
> Why so categorical? How about finding compromises and solutions that
> work best for most people?

I would imagine that it works best when one instance of Frescobaldi is
able to install several versions of LilyPond.  If those in turn try
installing Frescobaldi, this is not likely going to end well.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Francisco Vila]

El 07/12/2013 15:48, "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" 
escribió:

> I don't see why you assume that.  There's no particular reason why you
need an identical bundled install for every platform -- different platforms
come with different expectations on the part of users, so it should be fine
to have e.g. a Windows installer that bundles Lilypond with an appropriate
IDE, whereas on GNU/Linux you just install Lilypond itself.
>

+1
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 07.12.2013 17:41, schrieb Mark Stephen Mrotek:

I would imagine that when you install Frescobaldi, it updates the Windows
file config such that Frescobaldi becomes the default program with which to
open files with the .ly extension.



Yes, that's the case. I just did an install of Frescobaldi on Windows to 
have a look. And at one point there was a checkbox to assign Frescobaldi 
as default program for .ly files.


Urs

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" 
To: "Phil Holmes" ; "Janek Warchoł" 


Cc: "LilyPond Users" 
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience



On 07/12/13 17:55, Phil Holmes wrote:

Patches welcome.


Should I take that as conceding the argument in principle? :-)


No.  If, however, you actually offer a patch, then we could at least see 
whether what you're proposing is possible.  Since it never seems to happen, 
I can only presume it's not.


I know it's frustrating to see so much discussion and no code, but one 
reason people discuss so much is because they want to make sure there is a 
solution that will satisfy everyone.


It seems that a number of people here only discuss and never contribute. 
That's a waste of my time reading it in case there is something valuable, 
which seems rare.  Remember "you can never satisfy all of the people all of 
the time".


As it stands, I'm the one of only two people who has actually worked on 
improving the windows experience over the last few years.  I'm now getting 
thoroughly bored with pointless discussion and no action and so not likely 
to do any more myself or continue to read this thread.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 07/12/13 17:55, Phil Holmes wrote:

Patches welcome.


Should I take that as conceding the argument in principle? :-)

I know it's frustrating to see so much discussion and no code, but one reason 
people discuss so much is because they want to make sure there is a solution 
that will satisfy everyone.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" 
To: "Phil Holmes" ; "Janek Warchoł" 


Cc: "LilyPond Users" 
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience



On 07/12/13 17:14, Phil Holmes wrote:

I've already said I oppose this, and I'll restate this.


I think it's unfortunate that your opposition consists of just saying 
"no", rather than trying to work out if there are ways to get what you 
want _and_ get what other people are suggesting.


For example, your objection is based on the assumption that every time 
there's a new Lilypond release, you'll have to go to the Lilypond website, 
download a new installer, and install over the old version, remembering 
each time to deselect the install components you don't want.


You assume that (for example) it's not possible for the installer to 
auto-detect your existing implementation and by default select only the 
installed components to upgrade; or that it's not possible for the 
Lilypond install to include an upgrade tool which alerts you to the 
existence of a new release and downloads and installs the updated 
components for you.


All of this requires somebody to look into how to achieve these things, 
and to implement them.  People shouldn't be discouraged from exploring 
these possibilities by pre-emptive judgements about what they will come up 
with.




Patches welcome.

--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 07/12/13 17:43, Phil Holmes wrote:

So we have to have even more large files residing on the server, when we already
have enough.


This assumes that it isn't possible for the basic installer to be a lightweight 
tool that contains nothing itself, but that downloads and installs selected 
individual components.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 07/12/13 17:14, Phil Holmes wrote:

I've already said I oppose this, and I'll restate this.


I think it's unfortunate that your opposition consists of just saying "no", 
rather than trying to work out if there are ways to get what you want _and_ get 
what other people are suggesting.


For example, your objection is based on the assumption that every time there's a 
new Lilypond release, you'll have to go to the Lilypond website, download a new 
installer, and install over the old version, remembering each time to deselect 
the install components you don't want.


You assume that (for example) it's not possible for the installer to auto-detect 
your existing implementation and by default select only the installed components 
to upgrade; or that it's not possible for the Lilypond install to include an 
upgrade tool which alerts you to the existence of a new release and downloads 
and installs the updated components for you.


All of this requires somebody to look into how to achieve these things, and to 
implement them.  People shouldn't be discouraged from exploring these 
possibilities by pre-emptive judgements about what they will come up with.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Noeck" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience




Am 07.12.2013 17:17, schrieb Janek Warchoł:

2013/12/7 Phil Holmes :
Links and recommendations - fine, great, wonderful.  Bundled install? 
No
way - that's when I'd stop being release manager and when I'd freeze at 
the

current LilyPond install.


Why so categorical? How about finding compromises and solutions that
work best for most people?


Because we can't compromise on a boolean bundle or no-bundle.


We could have both bundled and unbundled installer.


For example this compromise?


So we have to have even more large files residing on the server, when we 
already have enough.



But right now noone seems to be willing to do the actual work, so we
can drop this discussion anyway ;-)


It’s a pity when good discussions have to end like this.

Joram



It's a pity that there's so much discussion and so few offers of actual 
implementation.


--
Phil Holmes 



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RE: A thought on Windows Experience

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Mr. Wakeling,

Thank you for the reply and the explanation. Seems to me to be a simple
solution for some of the objections.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Joseph Rushton Wakeling [mailto:joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net] 
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 7:45 AM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience

On 06/12/13 00:47, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:
> Since I am not a programmer, I am not sure why, yet when I double 
> click a .ly file in Windows 7 Frescobaldi opens (rapidly) and displays the
code.

I would imagine that when you install Frescobaldi, it updates the Windows
file config such that Frescobaldi becomes the default program with which to
open files with the .ly extension.

That _will_ be quick, because it's just opening a text file in a specialized
text editor.  It's not the same as running Lilypond itself on an input file.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Noeck]

Am 07.12.2013 17:17, schrieb Janek Warchoł:
> 2013/12/7 Phil Holmes :
>> Links and recommendations - fine, great, wonderful.  Bundled install?  No
>> way - that's when I'd stop being release manager and when I'd freeze at the
>> current LilyPond install.

Why so categorical? How about finding compromises and solutions that
work best for most people?

> We could have both bundled and unbundled installer.

For example this compromise?

> But right now noone seems to be willing to do the actual work, so we
> can drop this discussion anyway ;-)

It’s a pity when good discussions have to end like this.

Joram

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/7 Phil Holmes :
> Links and recommendations - fine, great, wonderful.  Bundled install?  No
> way - that's when I'd stop being release manager and when I'd freeze at the
> current LilyPond install.

We could have both bundled and unbundled installer.

But right now noone seems to be willing to do the actual work, so we
can drop this discussion anyway ;-)

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" 

To: "Janek Warchoł" 
Cc: "LilyPond Users" 
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2013 3:58 PM
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience



On 07/12/13 16:49, Janek Warchoł wrote:

you're probably right.  as i said, i don't know this stuff.


Well, in this case I think it's not about what you know -- it's about what 
you think is best to do.  If it turns out that the easiest way to organize 
things is to have one install bundle for all platforms, fine, but as 
things are you already have differences in how things are set up in the 
Windows vs. Linux installers.


The thing to focus on probably just needs to be, what's the best way to 
serve a new user of Lilypond on this platform?  And in that case, 
providing Frescobaldi as part of the default install on Windows makes 
sense (but as I said, with the option to deselect it there for users who 
have other preferences).



I've already said I oppose this, and I'll restate this.  I have nothing 
against those who want to use Frescobaldi, and I'm sure it's a great app. 
I, however don't use it since I work in a completely different way.  I would 
expect there to be a lot of other people in a similar position.  I don't 
want to remember to deselect an option I'll never use every time I install 
LilyPond (Windows users - do you enjoy deselecting the "Ask toolbar" for 
every Java update?).  And, more importantly, I tend to keep relatively up to 
date with LilyPond versions - I've got over 70 installed.  Under no 
circumstances do I want to download Frescobaldi every time I download 
LilyPond.


Links and recommendations - fine, great, wonderful.  Bundled install?  No 
way - that's when I'd stop being release manager and when I'd freeze at the 
current LilyPond install.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 07/12/13 16:52, David Kastrup wrote:

The last time I thought that was when I wanted to compare how much worse
Emacs fared when using it for working on LaTeX files compared to a
specialized simple text editor called Kile or something.

Emacs hit in at over 16MB with my current work session (granted,
containing quite more than just a LaTeX file).

Then I started Kile and it swallowed about 90MB of memory, mostly
because it pulled in half a dozen libraries and demons, getting those
KDE parts up that it needed for operation.

Don't underestimate specialized simple text editors.


Indeed, but still small fry compared to what Lilypond can eat up on some scores 
:-)

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/7 Joseph Rushton Wakeling :
> On 07/12/13 16:49, Janek Warchoł wrote:
>>
>> you're probably right.  as i said, i don't know this stuff.
>
>
> Well, in this case I think it's not about what you know -- it's about what
> you think is best to do.  If it turns out that the easiest way to organize
> things is to have one install bundle for all platforms, fine, but as things
> are you already have differences in how things are set up in the Windows vs.
> Linux installers.
>
> The thing to focus on probably just needs to be, what's the best way to
> serve a new user of Lilypond on this platform?  And in that case, providing
> Frescobaldi as part of the default install on Windows makes sense (but as I
> said, with the option to deselect it there for users who have other
> preferences).

+1

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 07/12/13 16:49, Janek Warchoł wrote:

you're probably right.  as i said, i don't know this stuff.


Well, in this case I think it's not about what you know -- it's about what you 
think is best to do.  If it turns out that the easiest way to organize things is 
to have one install bundle for all platforms, fine, but as things are you 
already have differences in how things are set up in the Windows vs. Linux 
installers.


The thing to focus on probably just needs to be, what's the best way to serve a 
new user of Lilypond on this platform?  And in that case, providing Frescobaldi 
as part of the default install on Windows makes sense (but as I said, with the 
option to deselect it there for users who have other preferences).


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Joseph Rushton Wakeling  writes:

> On 06/12/13 00:47, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:
>> Since I am not a programmer, I am not sure why, yet when I double click a
>> .ly file in Windows 7 Frescobaldi opens (rapidly) and displays the code.
>
> I would imagine that when you install Frescobaldi, it updates the
> Windows file config such that Frescobaldi becomes the default program
> with which to open files with the .ly extension.
>
> That _will_ be quick, because it's just opening a text file in a
> specialized text editor.

The last time I thought that was when I wanted to compare how much worse
Emacs fared when using it for working on LaTeX files compared to a
specialized simple text editor called Kile or something.

Emacs hit in at over 16MB with my current work session (granted,
containing quite more than just a LaTeX file).

Then I started Kile and it swallowed about 90MB of memory, mostly
because it pulled in half a dozen libraries and demons, getting those
KDE parts up that it needed for operation.

Don't underestimate specialized simple text editors.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/7 Joseph Rushton Wakeling :
> On 06/12/13 23:37, Janek Warchoł wrote:
>>
>> Well, i'm not familiar with this area, but keep in mind that one has
>> to find a free, open-source solution that works for every platform we
>> support (Win, Mac, various Unixes) and can be automated.  It's not
>> enough to go and create one installer - we need software that would
>> recreate such installer, without manual intervention, for every
>> release.
>
>
> I don't see why you assume that.  There's no particular reason why you need
> an identical bundled install for every platform -- different platforms come
> with different expectations on the part of users, so it should be fine to
> have e.g. a Windows installer that bundles Lilypond with an appropriate IDE,
> whereas on GNU/Linux you just install Lilypond itself.

you're probably right.  as i said, i don't know this stuff.

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 06/12/13 23:37, Janek Warchoł wrote:

Well, i'm not familiar with this area, but keep in mind that one has
to find a free, open-source solution that works for every platform we
support (Win, Mac, various Unixes) and can be automated.  It's not
enough to go and create one installer - we need software that would
recreate such installer, without manual intervention, for every
release.


I don't see why you assume that.  There's no particular reason why you need an 
identical bundled install for every platform -- different platforms come with 
different expectations on the part of users, so it should be fine to have e.g. a 
Windows installer that bundles Lilypond with an appropriate IDE, whereas on 
GNU/Linux you just install Lilypond itself.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 06/12/13 00:47, Mark Stephen Mrotek wrote:

Since I am not a programmer, I am not sure why, yet when I double click a
.ly file in Windows 7 Frescobaldi opens (rapidly) and displays the code.


I would imagine that when you install Frescobaldi, it updates the Windows file 
config such that Frescobaldi becomes the default program with which to open 
files with the .ly extension.


That _will_ be quick, because it's just opening a text file in a specialized 
text editor.  It's not the same as running Lilypond itself on an input file.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/6 Phil Burfitt :
> What exactly is not easy to implement in Joseph Rushton Wakeling's
> suggestion of an optional frescobaldi install from lilypond's windows
> installer?

Well, i'm not familiar with this area, but keep in mind that one has
to find a free, open-source solution that works for every platform we
support (Win, Mac, various Unixes) and can be automated.  It's not
enough to go and create one installer - we need software that would
recreate such installer, without manual intervention, for every
release.

If you could look into this and implement it (at least a
proof-of-concept), that would be very welcome!

best,
Janek

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Carl Peterson]

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Phil Holmes  wrote:

>
> Our server is provided on a goodwill basis, and so we would not want to
> use any scripting that might load it.
>
> I was thinking that was the case. This would be a script that would append
all the request headers to a text file on the server, then load the static
page and get out of the way. Don't know if that makes a difference, but I
completely understand.
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: Carl Peterson



Here is the question that gets to your question: what are the server-side
capabilities of the LilyPond web server? I think one of the issues is that
some of these require backend capabilities that may or may not be 
available.

Also, is the code for those compatible where they can be included as part
of the project (if that's an issue)?



My question: does the lilypond server have PHP capability? If so, I can
look at putting together a basic traffic/analytics package. But that's
somewhat a "down the road" issue.


Our server is provided on a goodwill basis, and so we would not want to use 
any scripting that might load it.


--
Phil Holmes




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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Carl Peterson]

On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 7:10 AM, Phil Burfitt wrote:

> From: "Janek Warchoł" 
> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:16 AM
>
>
>
>>  * why are you out-sourcing tracking (google analytics)?
>>>
>>
>> I suppose that when that was decided upon, there may have been no good
>> free alternatives to Google Analytics.
>> But now there is for example Piwik - we're using it for the blog, and
>> i think it's good.  Paul, do you think it would be a good fit for
>> lilypond.org?
>>
>> best,
>> Janek
>>
>
>
> AWstats? Webalizer? Just about every web hosting server out there has one
> or both of these.


Here is the question that gets to your question: what are the server-side
capabilities of the LilyPond web server? I think one of the issues is that
some of these require backend capabilities that may or may not be
available. Also, is the code for those compatible where they can be
included as part of the project (if that's an issue)?

My question: does the lilypond server have PHP capability? If so, I can
look at putting together a basic traffic/analytics package. But that's
somewhat a "down the road" issue.
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

From: "David Kastrup" 
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 12:43 PM




"Phil Burfitt"  writes:


What exactly is not easy to implement in Joseph Rushton Wakeling's
suggestion of an optional frescobaldi install from lilypond's windows
installer?





That very much provokes the answer "Patches welcome", but of course that
might already be too optimistic.


Yes.


"Patches will be reviewed" is somewhat
more accurate hopefully.



No.


At any rate, why would we treat Windows different from others?


Did I suggest that?

However, if somethings possible on one platform and not another, do you deny 
the former because of the latter?




Are you familiar with how the build of LilyPond installers is done


No


or is "easy to implement" just speculation?


Did I say it was easy to implement?



How are we going to control the versions selected for downloading?


why would you want to select any other version of frescobaldi except the 
last one?




Bundling software products from other companies with Windows Installer is so 
commonly done, that, although I have never needed to use it, I'm curious as 
to the difficulties...hence the question.


Phil.




David Kastrup




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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

"Phil Burfitt"  writes:

> What exactly is not easy to implement in Joseph Rushton Wakeling's
> suggestion of an optional frescobaldi install from lilypond's windows
> installer?

That very much provokes the answer "Patches welcome", but of course that
might already be too optimistic.  "Patches will be reviewed" is somewhat
more accurate hopefully.

At any rate, why would we treat Windows different from others?  Are you
familiar with how the build of LilyPond installers is done, or is "easy
to implement" just speculation?  How are we going to control the
versions selected for downloading?

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

From: "Janek Warchoł" 
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 11:16 AM




* why are you out-sourcing tracking (google analytics)?


I suppose that when that was decided upon, there may have been no good
free alternatives to Google Analytics.
But now there is for example Piwik - we're using it for the blog, and
i think it's good.  Paul, do you think it would be a good fit for
lilypond.org?

best,
Janek



AWstats? Webalizer? Just about every web hosting server out there has one or 
both of these.


Phil.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

- Original Message - 
From: "Janek Warchol" 

Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:36 PM




The way many Windows installers work is that they present you as a user
with a list of components to select to be installed, of which some will 
be

selected (or not) by default.  There's no reason not to have Frescobaldi
bundled with the installer but deselectable if you don't want it.




+1

What about the option of having other editors such as Denemo as well as 
an
option? I myself prefer Frescobaldi, but I know that a few prefer Denemo. 
I

feel it to be a bit unfair to only have one option bundled with an
installer.




Frescobaldi is a text editor + previewer. It's simple and intuitive. I've 
never heard of anyone that doesn't like it, though some may prefer other 
choices.


Denemo is GUI based notation software. Has a learning curve. Hides lilypond. 
Many do not like it, myself included (sorry if I offend anyone).


Lilypond _is_ text based. Do you want to hide that or facilitate its use?

If you want to hide it, then you may also consider Musescore and any others 
that can export to lilypond format.





This is a good idea, but as David already said, it's actually not easy
to implement. :-/
Hey, what about this (just for now): since it's hard to actually
install additional software, we could at least have links to
Frescobaldi/Denemo webpages in Lily's installer, so that the users
could install them themselves.  David, this should be easy to do?

Janek


What exactly is not easy to implement in Joseph Rushton Wakeling's 
suggestion of an optional frescobaldi install from lilypond's windows 
installer?


Phil.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

Hi,

2013/12/6 Phil Burfitt :
> I did have a very brief look at the home page however
>
> * why are you out-sourcing tracking (google analytics)?

I suppose that when that was decided upon, there may have been no good
free alternatives to Google Analytics.
But now there is for example Piwik - we're using it for the blog, and
i think it's good.  Paul, do you think it would be a good fit for
lilypond.org?

best,
Janek

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

From: "Werner LEMBERG" 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 6:34 PM



It's not so much about texinfo but...

... but someone who is an experienced web page designer and/or
JavaScript programmer/user.  The separation between content and
presentation is already there due to the very nature of texinfo.

As a starter, it would help us a lot if such a person analyzes, say,
the top-level lilypond web page, giving recommendations how to
improve, ideally in small, logical steps.  A complete redesign
starting from scratch is *much* harder to implement, I believe.


   Werner




Hi Werner,

It looks like Carl Peterson is taking this on, so you have your man. I did 
have a very brief look at the home page however


* why are you out-sourcing tracking (google analytics)?

* why are you using DOM scripting (javascript http requests)?

It makes no sense for the server to send a page to a browser, only for the 
browser to call the server again for more data to complete the page. Why is 
this data not being included in the page by the server in the first place?



Phil.




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RE: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Mr. Wakeling,

Since I am not a programmer, I am not sure why, yet when I double click a
.ly file in Windows 7 Frescobaldi opens (rapidly) and displays the code.

Mark


-Original Message-
From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
Joseph Rushton Wakeling
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 2:20 PM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting,
etc)

Open the file, I'd say.  It'd be pretty intrusive if simply double-clicking
on a text file in Explorer was to cause the launch of a process that might
take a very long time, consume a large amount of system resources, and
generate a large new file to write to disk

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 05.12.2013 23:29, schrieb Ryan McClure:

On 12/05/2013 05:20 PM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
The way many Windows installers work is that they present you as a 
user with a list of components to select to be installed, of which 
some will be selected (or not) by default.  There's no reason not to 
have Frescobaldi bundled with the installer but deselectable if you 
don't want it.
What about the option of having other editors such as Denemo as well 
as an option? I myself prefer Frescobaldi, but I know that a few 
prefer Denemo. I feel it to be a bit unfair to only have one option 
bundled with an installer.




I think David's argument is still valid: It's much more straightforward 
to have IDEs manage installing LilyPond than vice versa.


I think it would be better to change the information on the download page.
Tell new users that the "plain" download is rather for updating an 
existing installation and that they should better download Frescobaldi 
or Denemo (with a short characterization of both) because they'll need 
an editing environment anyway. Denemo already has LilyPond bundled, 
Frescobaldi can easily be taught to download and install LilyPond on 
first launch if it doesn't find an installation.


Urs

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/5 Ryan McClure :
> On 12/05/2013 05:20 PM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
>>
>> The way many Windows installers work is that they present you as a user
>> with a list of components to select to be installed, of which some will be
>> selected (or not) by default.  There's no reason not to have Frescobaldi
>> bundled with the installer but deselectable if you don't want it.
>
> What about the option of having other editors such as Denemo as well as an
> option? I myself prefer Frescobaldi, but I know that a few prefer Denemo. I
> feel it to be a bit unfair to only have one option bundled with an
> installer.

This is a good idea, but as David already said, it's actually not easy
to implement. :-/
Hey, what about this (just for now): since it's hard to actually
install additional software, we could at least have links to
Frescobaldi/Denemo webpages in Lily's installer, so that the users
could install them themselves.  David, this should be easy to do?

Janek

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Ryan McClure]

On 12/05/2013 05:20 PM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
The way many Windows installers work is that they present you as a 
user with a list of components to select to be installed, of which 
some will be selected (or not) by default.  There's no reason not to 
have Frescobaldi bundled with the installer but deselectable if you 
don't want it.
What about the option of having other editors such as Denemo as well as 
an option? I myself prefer Frescobaldi, but I know that a few prefer 
Denemo. I feel it to be a bit unfair to only have one option bundled 
with an installer.


-Ryan McClure

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Joseph Rushton Wakeling]

On 04/12/13 19:02, Phil Holmes wrote:

For me, I'd say that we should not install Frescobaldi as a pre-requisite of
running Lily on Windows.  I'm a heavy Windows user, and would not want another
program installed by default.  I've not used it, but I do understand that many
people feel it's excellent - so an option would be to promote it more heavily
for Windows users?


Yes, but arguably the default configuration should be what is best for new 
users, and installing Frescobaldi does make a certain amount of sense here -- 
it's an excellent dedicated "IDE" for Lilypond that really makes it easier to 
understand the process of creating scores.


The way many Windows installers work is that they present you as a user with a 
list of components to select to be installed, of which some will be selected (or 
not) by default.  There's no reason not to have Frescobaldi bundled with the 
installer but deselectable if you don't want it.



I am willing to look at improving the Windows experience, although this would
need to wait until my degree finishes next Summer.  However, there's one thing I
don't know: what should happen when you double-click a .ly file in Explorer:
open an editor or compile the file?


Open the file, I'd say.  It'd be pretty intrusive if simply double-clicking on a 
text file in Explorer was to cause the launch of a process that might take a 
very long time, consume a large amount of system resources, and generate a large 
new file to write to disk.


It's also at odds with the way in which source files for other markups and 
languages are treated when opened via the file browser.



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 11:59 +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
> Am 05.12.2013 11:54, schrieb Richard Shann:
> > The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure
> > about the GNU/Linux one.
> 
> Which LP version?
The latest Denemo binary for windows has LilyPond 2.16.2 built-in. But
you can install the development version separately and point Denemo to
it via the preferences.

Richard



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Tim and Werner, I would love to, and have considered a few times in
> the past.  Unfortunately I do not have the time, have no experience
> of texinfo, and would probably have to ditch it within the coming
> year due to future plans anyway.

It's not so much about texinfo but...

> I don't know how the current system is setup, but I don't see the
> need for "nifty HTML".  A separation of content and presentation,
> with clean, simple, hand coded (s)html pages (as noted by
> others...html authoring tools clutter the code - usually with info
> needed by the authoring tool itself).  Extensive use of divs, the
> usual webpage furniture where needed (menus, crumblines, buttons,
> etc), a few graphics, style sheets, and little else.  Definitely no
> client-side scripting, and content for dynamic pages (and static
> pages if you want) provided by server-side includes.  It seems
> child's play to me, but David's comments leave me wondering how
> entangled the current setup may be.

... but someone who is an experienced web page designer and/or
JavaScript programmer/user.  The separation between content and
presentation is already there due to the very nature of texinfo.

As a starter, it would help us a lot if such a person analyzes, say,
the top-level lilypond web page, giving recommendations how to
improve, ideally in small, logical steps.  A complete redesign
starting from scratch is *much* harder to implement, I believe.


Werner

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

Tim McNamara wrote:


If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then
volunteer to roll up your sleeves and help change it...



Werner Lemberg wrote:


Do you want to work on that? We don't have a specialist
who really likes to dive into the nifty HTML and Java issues
while creating the contents via the texinfo format so that
the PDF stays in sync with the HTML and info output.




Tim and Werner, I would love to, and have considered a few times in the 
past. Unfortunately I do not have the time, have no experience of texinfo, 
and would probably have to ditch it within the coming year due to future 
plans anyway.


I don't know how the current system is setup, but I don't see the need for 
"nifty HTML". A separation of content and presentation, with clean, simple, 
hand coded (s)html pages (as noted by others...html authoring tools clutter 
the code - usually with info needed by the authoring tool itself) . 
Extensive use of divs, the usual webpage furniture where needed (menus, 
crumblines, buttons, etc), a few graphics, style sheets, and little else. 
Definitely no client-side scripting, and content for dynamic pages (and 
static pages if you want) provided by server-side includes. It seems child's 
play to me, but David's comments leave me wondering how entangled the 
current setup may be.



Francisco Vila wrote:


I don't want my initial proposal to get polluted with issues
about cuteness of our web page. My stronger idea would be:

"Let's give new users something they can double-click and start
playing without the need of calling them stupid for having done so"



I completely agree. I think the lilypond desktop icon is a problem as I 
initially suggested, and I think that it should be a first priority. However 
lilypond definitely needs a little "window dressing" in order to get folks 
to come on in. While David and others are busy working on the "Porsche" 
engine (and a fine engine it is from my perspective), I feel the bodywork 
have been left to get dusty/rusty.


This all ties in with the need to market/promote lilypond and David's need 
for funding. The best and most efficient means of promotion on the net is by 
word-of-mouth. Word soon gets around if something is good, but also if it is 
bad, faulty, or problematic. While those involved in lilypond may think that 
meager resources should be channelled into software development, perhaps 
some time should be dedicated to focusing on increasing lilyponds user base 
which would ultimately translate into more chances of help and funding. It's 
a bit chicken and egg!



Phil.



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/5 David Kastrup :
> Janek Warchoł  writes:
>
>> Anyway, what about something like this: a "higher-level" installer
>> that installs LilyPond and lets user choose what editing program he
>> wants to use:
>>
>> "LilyPond files can be edited using different programs.  Pleasse
>> choose what to install additionally:
>> * Denemo (has a GUI but it cannot open lilypond files created with
>> other programs)
>> * Frescobaldi (gives you more control, but doesn't have a GUI)
>> * I'm a computer wizard, and I'll use my own EMACS/vim/Notepad++"
>>
>> This way we avoid the problem of favoring one editor over the other.
>
> Are you going to implement this for all GUB targets?  MacOSX, MacOS
> PowerPC, Windows, FreeBSD, and so on?
>
> Write a "higher-level" installer for all of these that will know how to
> get at all the editors for all of these?

Ah, i forgot that everything should be generic enough to be able to go
through GUB.  It'd be hard indeed...
:-(

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: "Francisco Vila" 

To: "Carl Peterson" 
Cc: "David Kastrup" ; "LilyPond Users" 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience



2013/12/5 Carl Peterson :
There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except 
when
I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand 
coding

websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of "popular HTML
authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody 
peruses

closely."


I don't want my initial proposal to get polluted with issues about
cuteness of our web page. My stronger idea would be:

"Let's give new users something they can double-click and start
playing without the need of calling them stupid for having done so"



I think I said about 4,000 messages ago that I would be willing to update 
the Windows install so that a double-click opens the files in a default 
editor of the user's choice, with LilyPad being the default.  FWIW that's 
the editor I started with (well, actually the current version is better), 
and it is quite good enough to get you started.  However, I'm too busy with 
college right now, so if someone else wants to do it, please volunteer.


Too many people on this thread saying what's wrong, too few offering to 
help.


--
Phil Holmes 



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Holmes]

- Original Message - 
From: Carl Peterson



There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except
when I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand
coding websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of "popular
HTML authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody
peruses closely."


As David says, the complexities of keeping lots of different formats in step 
and usable means we don't use any web development tools.


Please see 
http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/contributor/documentation-work 
for information about how our documentation works.  We'd love to have you 
contribute.


--
Phil Holmes




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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Francisco Vila]

2013/12/5 Carl Peterson :
> There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except when
> I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand coding
> websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of "popular HTML
> authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses
> closely."

I don't want my initial proposal to get polluted with issues about
cuteness of our web page. My stronger idea would be:

"Let's give new users something they can double-click and start
playing without the need of calling them stupid for having done so"

-- 
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org , www.csmbadajoz.com

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Carl Peterson  writes:

> On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:42 AM, David Kastrup  wrote:
>
>> Carl Peterson  writes:
>> > Where do I sign up and what do I need to know about the way the
>> > current site works? I cannot write a single line of C++, my Scheme
>> > skills are meager at best (limited mostly to taking existing code and
>> > tweaking parameters), and I've only looked into MetaFont enough to
>> > send a patch to Janek to review to refine the shape note parameters to
>> > deal with unsightly MI and SO noteheads. (speaking of which,
>> > Janek... :) ). But I can do web development.
>>
>> So if you are versed with modern tools for web development, you may
>> easily be frustrated at just how little possibility there is for
>> employing them as you are used to do.
>
> There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except
> when I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been
> hand coding websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of
> "popular HTML authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that
> fortunately nobody peruses closely."

Good.  The first stop is the "contributors' guide"
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.17/Documentation/contributor/index.html>.
That will tend to give you more of a feeling of the writer of the
documentation rather than the meat of the procedures turning their work
into web pages, but it should likely get you more of an idea what you
are dealing with.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Carl Peterson]

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:42 AM, David Kastrup  wrote:

> Carl Peterson  writes:
> > Where do I sign up and what do I need to know about the way the
> > current site works? I cannot write a single line of C++, my Scheme
> > skills are meager at best (limited mostly to taking existing code and
> > tweaking parameters), and I've only looked into MetaFont enough to
> > send a patch to Janek to review to refine the shape note parameters to
> > deal with unsightly MI and SO noteheads. (speaking of which,
> > Janek... :) ). But I can do web development.
>
> One thing you have to realize that much of the content is created
> programmatically with a uniform look and feel.  So much is contained in
> style sheets, and most of the rest is basically hand-written fragments
> combined by procedures.
>
> Which, in comparison to the popular HTML authoring tools generating
> oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely, exactly
> entails the workflows that would have been used for "something out of
> the eighties knocked up on a dos machine".
>
> So if you are versed with modern tools for web development, you may
> easily be frustrated at just how little possibility there is for
> employing them as you are used to do.
>

There are modern tools for web development? Seriously, though, except when
I've been using a package like WordPress, I've pretty much been hand coding
websites for the last dozen years or so, partly because of "popular HTML
authoring tools generating oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody
peruses closely."
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 11:59 +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
> Am 05.12.2013 11:54, schrieb Richard Shann:
> > The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure
> > about the GNU/Linux one.
> 
> Which LP version?

I'm not sure, it is built with a cloned GUB, and so can be pointed to
any version provided all the other bits that may have been modified in
LilyPond's GUB to get it working are copied over. I'll look when I next
get on a windows machine...

Richard



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 05.12.2013 11:54, schrieb Richard Shann:

The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure
about the GNU/Linux one.


Which LP version?

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Richard Shann]

On Thu, 2013-12-05 at 09:10 +, Trevor Daniels wrote:
> David Kastrup wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:17 AM
> 
> 
> > Janek Warchoł  writes:
> > 
> >> I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful
> >> editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond
> >> right away.
> > 
> > For better or worse, I think that the interactive task of
> > managing LilyPond versions is better placed with the editors which are
> > supposed to interact with the user than the other way round.
> 
> I agree strongly with both these points.  Two things are needed:
> 
> a) Augment Fresco on installation to prompt and help users to
> download and install LilyPond.  I think Urs is considering doing
> this.  Maybe do the same with Denemo.

The Denemo windows and mac binaries have LilyPond built in. Not sure
about the GNU/Linux one.

Richard


>   These then become the
> primary LP entry points for new users. 
> 
> b) Modify the LilyPond website and Learning Manual to point
> strongly to Fresobaldi and maybe Denemo as the recommended 
> starting points for new users, rather than downloading just LP.
> 
> Trevor
> ___
> lilypond-user mailing list
> lilypond-user@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[ArnoldTheresius]

Noeck wrote
> This editor (lilypad) in Windows is deterrent.
> ...

Well, when I started working with LILYPOND, I allready had expeciance with
both command line compilers and IDE compilers. So I never tried Frescobaldi.
And I stopped using lilypad very, very soon; immediately after I noticed I
did not support UTF-8 encoding.
I created a few tiny "helper" programs, e.g. to 'translate' the UTF-8-output
of lilypond.exe correctly to the windows command line terminal.
I did not start to create my own editor resp.
Itegrated_Developemnt_Environment, because
(1) I would need a coulple of month to implement it,
(2) my solution would only have the look and feel of IDE programs of the
80-ies
(3) it would be exclusively for windows.

ArnoldTheresius



--
View this message in context: 
http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/A-thought-on-Windows-Experience-was-useability-promoting-etc-tp155017p155085.html
Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Trevor Daniels]

David Kastrup wrote Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:17 AM


> Janek Warchoł  writes:
> 
>> I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful
>> editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond
>> right away.
> 
> For better or worse, I think that the interactive task of
> managing LilyPond versions is better placed with the editors which are
> supposed to interact with the user than the other way round.

I agree strongly with both these points.  Two things are needed:

a) Augment Fresco on installation to prompt and help users to
download and install LilyPond.  I think Urs is considering doing
this.  Maybe do the same with Denemo.  These then become the
primary LP entry points for new users. 

b) Modify the LilyPond website and Learning Manual to point
strongly to Fresobaldi and maybe Denemo as the recommended 
starting points for new users, rather than downloading just LP.

Trevor
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Werner LEMBERG]

> I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something
> out of the eighties knocked up on a dos machine.  By comparison,
> take a look at the home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.

Actually, I don't see a very big difference between lilypond's and
musescore's site.  But improvements are always possible, of course.
Do you want to work on that?  We don't have a specialist who really
likes to dive into the nifty HTML and Java issues while creating the
contents via the texinfo format so that the PDF stays in sync with the
HTML and info output.


Werner

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Carl Peterson  writes:

> On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Tim McNamara  wrote:
>
>>
>> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Phil Burfitt 
>> wrote:
>> > I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like
>> > something out of the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By
>> > comparison, take a look at the home pages of musescore, finale and
>> > sibelius.
>>
>> If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then volunteer to
>> roll up your sleeves and help change it by writing text blocks, creating
>> better HTML, creating better graphics, etc.  There is no well-funded
>> corporation behind Lilypond, just a bunch of dedicated and amazingly
>> talented volunteer programmers.
>
>
> Where do I sign up and what do I need to know about the way the
> current site works? I cannot write a single line of C++, my Scheme
> skills are meager at best (limited mostly to taking existing code and
> tweaking parameters), and I've only looked into MetaFont enough to
> send a patch to Janek to review to refine the shape note parameters to
> deal with unsightly MI and SO noteheads. (speaking of which,
> Janek... :) ). But I can do web development.

One thing you have to realize that much of the content is created
programmatically with a uniform look and feel.  So much is contained in
style sheets, and most of the rest is basically hand-written fragments
combined by procedures.

Which, in comparison to the popular HTML authoring tools generating
oodles of garbage that fortunately nobody peruses closely, exactly
entails the workflows that would have been used for "something out of
the eighties knocked up on a dos machine".

So if you are versed with modern tools for web development, you may
easily be frustrated at just how little possibility there is for
employing them as you are used to do.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

Am 2013-12-05 um 01:12 schrieb David Kastrup :

> Francisco Vila  writes:
> 
>> 2013/12/4 David Kastrup :
>>> The last time this discussion came up, Frescobaldi did not work on
>>> MacOSX.  And it comes with its own dependencies.  And installers.
>> 
>> Fresco is now in Macports (whatever that means) and I think that means
>> it is now very easy to install there.
> 
> "It is very easy to install there" is not the same as "it is very easy
> to integrate into LilyPond's installer".

Right, and „very easy to install“ is not true for the average Mac user - 
MacPorts is kind of a Linux parallel installation on your mac, controlled by 
command line.
And Frescobaldi has so much dependencies, it pulls in nearly a complete Linux 
with some hours of compile time.

I’m glad it works, but it doesn’t avoid the command line problem for clicky 
users.


Greetlings, Hraban
---
fiëé visuëlle
Henning Hraban Ramm
http://www.fiee.net
http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)





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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Carl Peterson]

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Tim McNamara  wrote:

>
> On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Phil Burfitt 
> wrote:
> > I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out
> of the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at
> the home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.
>
> All things considered, I'd rather focus Lilypond's meager resources to
> software that creates beautifully engraved sheet music.  The printed output
> of Lilypond is vastly superior (and more readable by musicians) than
> MuseScore, Finale or Sibelius.  I'm always amazed at how crappy Finale
> output looks, in particular.
>
> If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then volunteer to
> roll up your sleeves and help change it by writing text blocks, creating
> better HTML, creating better graphics, etc.  There is no well-funded
> corporation behind Lilypond, just a bunch of dedicated and amazingly
> talented volunteer programmers.


Where do I sign up and what do I need to know about the way the current
site works? I cannot write a single line of C++, my Scheme skills are
meager at best (limited mostly to taking existing code and tweaking
parameters), and I've only looked into MetaFont enough to send a patch to
Janek to review to refine the shape note parameters to deal with unsightly
MI and SO noteheads. (speaking of which, Janek... :) ). But I can do web
development.

Carl P.
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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Tim McNamara]

On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Phil Burfitt  wrote:

> From: "Janek Warchol" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 11:55 PM
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> a couple of thoughts:
>> 
>> 2013/12/4 Francisco Vila :
>>> I find this path tortuous. People double-click
>>> the lilypond icon, and don't see this shell as many of them could
>>> expect. Instead, ugly things happen. Therefore, lilypond is ugly. I
>>> think this summarizes the start and the end of a newcomer's
>>> experience.
>> 
>> AMEN.
>> Francisco nailed it on the head.
>> Such things may seem small, but they make all the difference, and the
>> biggest companies (like Apple) know about this.  First impression,
>> elegance, simplicity, intuitiveness, etc. are very important.

Apple's applications are written by a legion of well paid professionals who do 
nothing but live up to the Apple aesthetic.  Lilypond is written by a bunch of 
volunteers in their spare times, none of whom (as far as I know) is an GUI 
interface expert.

Powerful software and simple software are usually mutually exclusive.  Compare 
Word, Pages and LaTeX, for example.  Pages is more elegant but can do a small 
fraction of what Word can do.  Word can't do a lot of things that LaTeX can.


> AMEN+1
> 
> I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out of 
> the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at the 
> home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.

All things considered, I'd rather focus Lilypond's meager resources to software 
that creates beautifully engraved sheet music.  The printed output of Lilypond 
is vastly superior (and more readable by musicians) than MuseScore, Finale or 
Sibelius.  I'm always amazed at how crappy Finale output looks, in particular.

If you think that Lilypond's web page needs a facelift, then volunteer to roll 
up your sleeves and help change it by writing text blocks, creating better 
HTML, creating better graphics, etc.  There is no well-funded corporation 
behind Lilypond, just a bunch of dedicated and amazingly talented volunteer 
programmers.


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

- Original Message - 
From: "Janek Warchoł" 

To: "Phil Burfitt" 
Cc: "LilyPond Users" 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: A thought on Windows Experience



2013/12/5 Phil Burfitt :
I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out 
of
the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at 
the

home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.


are you visiting http://lilypond.org/ or http://lilypond.org/web/ ?

Janek




http://lilypond.org/

Of course it's a matter of taste, but that's how I see it - sorry:(

Phil.



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

2013/12/5 Phil Burfitt :
> I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out of
> the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at the
> home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.

are you visiting http://lilypond.org/ or http://lilypond.org/web/ ?

Janek

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Phil Burfitt]

From: "Janek Warchol" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 11:55 PM


Hi,

a couple of thoughts:

2013/12/4 Francisco Vila :

I find this path tortuous. People double-click
the lilypond icon, and don't see this shell as many of them could
expect. Instead, ugly things happen. Therefore, lilypond is ugly. I
think this summarizes the start and the end of a newcomer's
experience.


AMEN.
Francisco nailed it on the head.
Such things may seem small, but they make all the difference, and the
biggest companies (like Apple) know about this.  First impression,
elegance, simplicity, intuitiveness, etc. are very important.



AMEN+1

I also think lilypond's website is terrible. It looks like something out of 
the eighties knocked up on a dos machine. By comparison, take a look at the 
home pages of musescore, finale and sibelius.


Phil.



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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Janek Warchoł  writes:

> Anyway, what about something like this: a "higher-level" installer
> that installs LilyPond and lets user choose what editing program he
> wants to use:
>
> "LilyPond files can be edited using different programs.  Pleasse
> choose what to install additionally:
> * Denemo (has a GUI but it cannot open lilypond files created with
> other programs)
> * Frescobaldi (gives you more control, but doesn't have a GUI)
> * I'm a computer wizard, and I'll use my own EMACS/vim/Notepad++"
>
> This way we avoid the problem of favoring one editor over the other.

Are you going to implement this for all GUB targets?  MacOSX, MacOS
PowerPC, Windows, FreeBSD, and so on?

Write a "higher-level" installer for all of these that will know how to
get at all the editors for all of these?

> I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful
> editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond
> right away.

It would even better to have a friendly human tutor installed
automatically.  We just need to get her into the installer, same
problem.  For better or worse, I think that the interactive task of
managing LilyPond versions is better placed with the editors which are
supposed to interact with the user than the other way round.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Janek Warchoł]

Hi,

a couple of thoughts:

2013/12/4 Francisco Vila :
> I find this path tortuous. People double-click
> the lilypond icon, and don't see this shell as many of them could
> expect. Instead, ugly things happen. Therefore, lilypond is ugly. I
> think this summarizes the start and the end of a newcomer's
> experience.

AMEN.
Francisco nailed it on the head.
Such things may seem small, but they make all the difference, and the
biggest companies (like Apple) know about this.  First impression,
elegance, simplicity, intuitiveness, etc. are very important.

Currently LilyPond's first impression (via LilyPad) is that it's a
second-rate program, looking as if it was written by a student in a
garage during the last holidays.  And it may seem that Lily is free
because it's not good enough to be worth any money.  Seriously, i
think that's the impression we're currently making.

While i'm sure that the people who created LilyPad had good
intentions, i really believe that LilyPad doesn't make sense (please
don't get offended by this).  For advanced users it's dramatically
underfeatured, while for newbies it's still not making things clear
enough.  And - at least the last time i checked - it lacks most text
editing tools, like syntax highlighting.  Only Windows notepad.exe has
less features i think.

David may be right that it'd be easier to integrate LilyPond into
Frescobaldi's installer than the other way round.  Or maybe there
won't be an easy way to have an installer that actually installs
everything - but maybe it would be enough if it downloaded other
program setup files and ran them?

Anyway, what about something like this: a "higher-level" installer
that installs LilyPond and lets user choose what editing program he
wants to use:

"LilyPond files can be edited using different programs.  Pleasse
choose what to install additionally:
* Denemo (has a GUI but it cannot open lilypond files created with
other programs)
* Frescobaldi (gives you more control, but doesn't have a GUI)
* I'm a computer wizard, and I'll use my own EMACS/vim/Notepad++"

This way we avoid the problem of favoring one editor over the other.

I believe that the most important thing is just to have a powerful
editor installed with LilyPond so that people get the most of LilyPond
right away.

best,
Janek

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 20:24, schrieb David Kastrup:

Urs Liska  writes:


Am 04.12.2013 19:44, schrieb David Kastrup:

Catering for integration of Frescobaldi would be a real headache.  And
the documentation would need adapting as well.  That's not to say
anything about the value provided by such an approach, but it would
likely make a lot more sense and a lot less work if the primary
installed application was Frescobaldi and it offered to install LilyPond
for you using one of our installers, rather than trying to do it the
other way round.

It would also make juggling with several versions a lot nicer since then
Frescobaldi can manage paths, and knows where it put things.

I don't know if that's something which could get a sufficient majority
because it somehow would make Frescobaldi look like an official editor
;-)

Not really.  We'd just recommend downloading and installing Frescobaldi
on certain platforms for getting a customary user experience rather than
a command line application.


OK. Then I suggest we will come back if we have managed to integrate 
LilyPond installation in Frescobaldi (Actually Wilbert says it was in 
Frescobaldi 1, although Linux only).
I think it's a good idea to do it in Frescobaldi anyway, then we/you can 
still consider how to communicate it to the end-user.



Bit I'm quite sure it would be trivial to include such a functionality
in Fresobaldi.

For a very variable value of "trivial".  But I think it would make sense
to do this distribution of labor/development for platforms where it
would work.


Of course.




It would be simple to add a menu item that looks for updates, fetches
and installs LilyPond, and finally adds it to the list of configured
LilyPond instances.
Such a function could easily be added to the installation process of
Frescobaldi.

Well, maybe a good idea to add that anyway.

It seems like a more common use case to use Frescobaldi for managing
multiple LilyPond's installed by LilyPond's installer than the other way
round, namely managing multiple Frescobaldi instances.


{
  \updateFrescobaldi #'stable-only
}

LOL

But actually I've implemented a menu in Frescobaldi that allows you to 
switch versions based on Git branches available. The next steps will be 
to update through Git, then allow switching to versions on branches of 
other remotes (i.e. contributors).
Of course everything can be done with a few Git commands. But I'm sure 
it will boost the collaborative spirit if there's a menu structure 
telling me which branches other contributors are working on.


Urs






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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am 04.12.2013 19:44, schrieb David Kastrup:
>> Catering for integration of Frescobaldi would be a real headache.  And
>> the documentation would need adapting as well.  That's not to say
>> anything about the value provided by such an approach, but it would
>> likely make a lot more sense and a lot less work if the primary
>> installed application was Frescobaldi and it offered to install LilyPond
>> for you using one of our installers, rather than trying to do it the
>> other way round.
>>
>> It would also make juggling with several versions a lot nicer since then
>> Frescobaldi can manage paths, and knows where it put things.
>
> I don't know if that's something which could get a sufficient majority
> because it somehow would make Frescobaldi look like an official editor
> ;-)

Not really.  We'd just recommend downloading and installing Frescobaldi
on certain platforms for getting a customary user experience rather than
a command line application.

> Bit I'm quite sure it would be trivial to include such a functionality
> in Fresobaldi.

For a very variable value of "trivial".  But I think it would make sense
to do this distribution of labor/development for platforms where it
would work.

> It would be simple to add a menu item that looks for updates, fetches
> and installs LilyPond, and finally adds it to the list of configured
> LilyPond instances.
> Such a function could easily be added to the installation process of
> Frescobaldi.
>
> Well, maybe a good idea to add that anyway.

It seems like a more common use case to use Frescobaldi for managing
multiple LilyPond's installed by LilyPond's installer than the other way
round, namely managing multiple Frescobaldi instances.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[David Kastrup]

Francisco Vila  writes:

> 2013/12/4 David Kastrup :
>> The last time this discussion came up, Frescobaldi did not work on
>> MacOSX.  And it comes with its own dependencies.  And installers.
>
> Fresco is now in Macports (whatever that means) and I think that means
> it is now very easy to install there.

"It is very easy to install there" is not the same as "it is very easy
to integrate into LilyPond's installer".

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience (was: useability, promoting, etc)

[Nick Payne]

On 05/12/13 05:02, Phil Holmes wrote:
I am willing to look at improving the Windows experience, although 
this would need to wait until my degree finishes next Summer.  
However, there's one thing I don't know: what should happen when you 
double-click a .ly file in Explorer: open an editor or compile the 
file?  And if the former, how should the file be compiled? 


Well, if it were a .c or .cpp file, I would expect it to open in an 
editor. On both my Linux and Windows machines, a double-click on an ly 
file opens it in Frescobaldi.


Nick

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 20:56, schrieb Noeck:

IMHO users should always be pointed to Frescobaldi and install it. Could
Lilypond be included in the Frescobaldi download?


As said I wouldn't want to promote that too much because I'm biased. But 
if there was an agreement on this it would be quite simple to arrange.

Frescobaldi should _not_ include LilyPond in its download because
- many people already have LilyPond
- which version should be included?
- would blow up download size

Instead I suggest that after finishing the installation Frescobaldi's 
installer looks for an existing LilyPond installation, and if it doesn't 
find one it suggests to download, install and configure it. By default 
this should take the latest stable version, but could also offer to look 
for the latest development version.


Urs


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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Noeck]

This editor in Windows is deterrent. When I started, it took several
weeks after I gave LP a second try. The first thing I then did, was
changing the default-opening-program to the standard windows notepad
editor, because the fonts an the look of this LP editor window was so
ugly. An I am glad that I came back to LP in the end.

IMHO users should always be pointed to Frescobaldi and install it. Could
Lilypond be included in the Frescobaldi download?

For an average user, Lilypond behaves quite strange:
- Doubleclick does not open a window
- Drag and drop for compiling (what is "compiling" anyway?)
- Editor window is not looking nice
- black window opens shortly (users did already complain about the
viruses in LP because they interpreted the command line window as such)

What could be expected of a windows program:
- installing one program that can be executed right a way
- main window opens from desktop or system menu short cut
- what is needed happens in this window

In that sense Frescobaldi is the program and it just uses LP in the
back. Should we then promote Frescobaldi as music engraving program
instead of LP? It would be strange as the engraving is done by LP, but
from the user’s perspective Frescobaldi is the tool he works with.
These names and startup issues can be quite confusing for new users.

Cheers,
Joram

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Re: A thought on Windows Experience

[Urs Liska]

Am 04.12.2013 19:44, schrieb David Kastrup:

Catering for integration of Frescobaldi would be a real headache.  And
the documentation would need adapting as well.  That's not to say
anything about the value provided by such an approach, but it would
likely make a lot more sense and a lot less work if the primary
installed application was Frescobaldi and it offered to install LilyPond
for you using one of our installers, rather than trying to do it the
other way round.

It would also make juggling with several versions a lot nicer since then
Frescobaldi can manage paths, and knows where it put things.


I don't know if that's something which could get a sufficient majority 
because it somehow would make Frescobaldi look like an official editor ;-)


Bit I'm quite sure it would be trivial to include such a functionality 
in Fresobaldi.
It would be simple to add a menu item that looks for updates, fetches 
and installs LilyPond, and finally adds it to the list of configured 
LilyPond instances.
Such a function could easily be added to the installation process of 
Frescobaldi.


Well, maybe a good idea to add that anyway.

Urs

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