Re: Quarter-tones
At 00:11 17-9-03 +0200, you wrote: My real problem is: where does it end? We can add quarter tone accidentals by doubling the alteration field, we now have 0 = natural, 1 = sharp 2 = double sharp. We could do 0 = natural 1 = 1/2 sharp 2 = sharp 3 = 3/4 sharp 4 = double sharp, would that be sufficient, or will we get someone clamoring for 1/3 sharps shortly? Well, I don't think people will start mumbling about 1/3 sharps really fast, because as far as my knowledge goes, that's pretty hard to achieve...(correct me if I'm wrong - I'm only a simple composer molesting the piano all day..! ;) But I would recommend the quarter-tone system used in atonal music for woodwinds (considered by Kurt Stone in 'Music Notation in the 20th Century' to have reached a near standard-status - and this was written in 1980). In this system they use a 1/4 sharp and a 1/4 flat (which looks like a regular flat but written backwards), besides, of course the regular sharp and flat. This means that if someone writes for instance a 3/4 sharp C, this would enharmonically be a 1/4 flat D. The Tartini-sharp style, with its 1/4 sharps (which looks like a normal sharp but one vertical line missing), normal sharps and 3/4-sharps (with three vertical lines), can cause a very messy score image, where a page with 1/4 sharps, 1/4 flats and normal sharps and flats, doesn't or at least causes a much less messy image of the score. This is why I recommend the quarter-tone system used in atonal music for woodwinds. Han-Wen, I expect that you're in posession of 'Music Notation in the 20th Century' by Kurt Stone, since you mentioned it in your bibliography list. If so, I'd recommend (if you haven't already done so) to read page 68-69 to see what Stone wrote about it. In case you don't have the book (and for others who are interested), I'll scan the pages and put up a link sometime today. Regards, Thorkil ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Quarter-tones
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, I don't think people will start mumbling about 1/3 sharps really fast, because as far as my knowledge goes, that's pretty hard to achieve...(correct me if I'm wrong - I'm only a simple composer molesting the piano all day..! ;) But I would recommend the quarter-tone system used in atonal music for woodwinds (considered by Kurt Stone in 'Music Notation in the 20th Century' Han-Wen, I expect that you're in posession of 'Music Notation in the 20th Century' by Kurt Stone, since you mentioned it in your bibliography list. If so, I'd recommend (if you haven't already done so) to read page 68-69 to see what Stone wrote about it. In case you don't have the book (and for others who are interested), I'll scan the pages and put up a link sometime today. The point isn't what symbols to use (designing them isn't so difficult), but how to represent them internally. If we change that, we will break a lot Scheme and C++ code. That is is inevitable, but I'd rather get it right for once and for all. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Quarter-tones
At 12:57 17-9-03 +0200, you wrote: The point isn't what symbols to use (designing them isn't so difficult), but how to represent them internally. If we change that, we will break a lot Scheme and C++ code. That is is inevitable, but I'd rather get it right for once and for all. I think what you suggested must be sufficient, for I don't think people will start asking about 1/3 sharps and/or 3/5 flats, but that is because I don't believe these kinds of accidentals exist. Thorkil PS: I updated the pages to which I referred to in my previous mail, so for those interested, here comes the link: http://members.home.nl/wolvendans/ ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Quarter-tones
Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote: My real problem is: where does it end? We can add quarter tone accidentals by doubling the alteration field, we now have 0 = natural, 1 = sharp 2 = double sharp. We could do 0 = natural 1 = 1/2 sharp 2 = sharp 3 = 3/4 sharp 4 = double sharp, would that be sufficient, or will we get someone clamoring for 1/3 sharps shortly? of course there exist many microtonal scales, which people ARE using, but built-in support for these can be justifiably regarded as excessive. if one can modify the number of staff lines and incorporate custom symbols (both possible now), then individuals can deal with these special circumstances as they arise. quarter-tone accidentals, on the other hand, have a long history of common usage and are well-entrenched in the current notational lexicon available to composers AND readable by performers. in my many years of work as a performer in the field of avant-garde concert music, i have run into quarter-tone notation MANY times, but can't recall a single instance of other microtonal divisions in printed music. i DO know folks who work in the microtonal area, but the performance and instrument-building skills required generally limit those activities to a few folks. bottom line: performers and composers generally know about and are comfortable with quarter-tones, so they should be included. best- -p ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Quarter-tones
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:53:56 +0200 Thorkil Wolvendans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think what you suggested must be sufficient, for I don't think people will start asking about 1/3 sharps and/or 3/5 flats, but that is because I don't believe these kinds of accidentals exist. Actually, the definition of an arbitrary sharp or flat is quite easy: frequency = 2^(8 + (steps above middle C + fractional sharp)/12) e.g. Middle C = 256Hz, middle C 1/3 sharp = 261Hz I suspect that western trained ears find it somewhat unpleasant in most cases. -- njh ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Quarter-tones
Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote: See 1.9 CVS: * Quarter tones are now supported. They are entered by suffixing `ih' for a half-sharp and `eh' for a half-flat. Hence, the following is an ascending list of pitches: ceses ceseh ces ceh c cih cis cisih cisis excellent... thankyou! i was going to wait for the next stable version, but this entices me to look at updating to 1.9 once my current project is finished. -p ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Quarter-tones
AFAIK this is not yet available. i highly endorse your request for inclusion of this much-needed feature! perhaps, in the meantime, someone has a work-around?? best- -p Hi everyone! I checked the Lily-documentation but couldn't find anything about it: quater-tones. Is it possible to make a 'Tartini one quarter sharp' or a backward flat (as described in Kurt Stone's 'Music notation in the 20th century', page 68-69, paragraph 3)? If it isn't possible, is or could it be implemented in some new version of Lilypond? Regards, Thorkil ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Quarter-tones
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: AFAIK this is not yet available. i highly endorse your request for inclusion of this much-needed feature! perhaps, in the meantime, someone has a work-around?? The need hasn't really arised yet, although I do remember someone hacking around, substituting double with single and single with half flats. My real problem is: where does it end? We can add quarter tone accidentals by doubling the alteration field, we now have 0 = natural, 1 = sharp 2 = double sharp. We could do 0 = natural 1 = 1/2 sharp 2 = sharp 3 = 3/4 sharp 4 = double sharp, would that be sufficient, or will we get someone clamoring for 1/3 sharps shortly? -- Han-Wen Nienhuys | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ Lilypond-user mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
