Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Johan Vromans]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 12:33:44 -0500
David Wright  wrote:

> My contention there was that the volta construction can produce the
> correct score and the correct midi when applied correctly (ie to all
> the voices).

How do you think I produced correct scores and MIDI for the last 20 years?

> I don't understand why you seem reluctant to give credit to what LP
> does correctly, and in accordance with the documentation.

Your brain seems to be wired differently than mine. That's okay.

-- Johan

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Mon 15 Aug 2016 at 17:20:09 (+0200), Johan Vromans wrote:
>> 
>> I change my remark to: "Specifying the structure of a score in
>> \global is wonderful, it just doesn't play nice with MIDI, because no
>> voice can impose a MIDI repeat structure on any other."
>
> I don't understand why you seem reluctant to give credit to what LP
> does correctly, and in accordance with the documentation.

It does not match the workflow he designed around the _graphic_ behavior
of unexpanded \repeat volta .  He is not scoring correctness but
personal convenience.  That may be frustrating for the programmers of
LilyPond in this case, but most certainly convenience scores high for a
program for which the main criticism is the awkwardness of its entry.
And there have been a lot of improvements recently (fixing q to become
reliable, allowing c2~1~8. for duration entry, the \beamExceptions
command, \fixed entry and other stuff) with regard to making input more
convenient.

I don't see him crossing this not-so-well-definable (in the context of
how LilyPond represents music) item from his personal wish list, but
I don't see anyone else crossing this item from his personal wish list
either.

Sometimes what you have is all you'll get.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[David Wright]

On Mon 15 Aug 2016 at 17:20:09 (+0200), Johan Vromans wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 09:39:39 -0500
> David Wright  wrote:
> 
> > I'm sorry, but your wishlist has nothing to do with the statement
> > "Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
> > doesn't work with midi."
> 
> There is something called the principle of least surprise. I can put bars,
> rehearsal marks, time signatures, repeats in \global and they all end up
> nicely in all staves of the printed output.
> 
> Then it surprises me that they do not all end up nicely in the midi — in
> particular, the repeats do not. So my first thought is "something doesn't
> work". That there is a good explanation [thanks, David K] why it
> doesn't/cannot work as I would have expected it doesn't change the surprise.
> 
> I tried to make clear that I do not consider this to be a bug
> but that it would be 'nice to have'. I see nothing wrong with that.
> 
> > If you're going to make a statement like that, and be challenged,
> > please supply some evidence or withdraw the remark.
> 
> I change my remark to: "Specifying the structure of a score in \global is
> wonderful, it just doesn't play nice with MIDI, because no voice can impose
> a MIDI repeat structure on any other."
> 
> > It's not as if this is the first time you've said that writing
> > repeats in LP doesn't work in the MIDI output:
> > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-02/msg00284.html
> 
> In this article I wrote "LilyPond doesn't deal with segno, coda, d.s. etc
> either in the MIDI." Apart from being a totally different topic, would
> you challenge this? Aand also, I wrote it as a statement, not a complaint
> and definitely not "reports of a LP failure."

That sentence was in a paragraph within a thread. Looking backwards:

...you wrote "LilyPond doesn't deal with segno, coda, d.s. etc either
in the MIDI. The LP generated MIDI only matches the sheet music in
most but definitely not all cases."

...commenting on my "This will unnecessarily prevent LilyPond using
the \repeat volta construction and so, once again, no MIDI rendition
among other concerns,"

...where that construction was what I presented as rpt1 in
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-02/msg00260.html
and this complete example would give the correct MIDI output.

I criticised your suggestion because it would not only produce an
unconventional score, but it couldn't handle the MIDI automatically.
So implying that LP's MIDI only matches the music in some cases (for
reasons that are never spelled out) by throwing in a few distractions
(segno, coda, d.s., which are *markings*, not repeats) is a way of
tempering my criticism.

That's what you just left out of your *full* paragraph above.
My contention there was that the volta construction can produce the
correct score and the correct midi when applied correctly (ie to all
the voices). The repeats are correctly observed in the MIDI.

This present thread discusses the same topics: repeats and MIDI.
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-08/msg00222.html
"For midi, \unfoldRepeats is necessary. Last time I tried, the repeats
(in \global) were note applied to the music parts.
Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
doesn't work with midi."

The words midi and repeats spring to the eye. In fact, I thought
you introduced them yourself (I haven't checked) at
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-08/msg00216.html

I don't understand why you seem reluctant to give credit to what LP
does correctly, and in accordance with the documentation.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[David Kastrup]

Johan Vromans  writes:

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 09:39:39 -0500
> David Wright  wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry, but your wishlist has nothing to do with the statement
>> "Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
>> doesn't work with midi."
>
> There is something called the principle of least surprise. I can put bars,
> rehearsal marks, time signatures, repeats in \global and they all end up
> nicely in all staves of the printed output.

Bars, rehearsal marks, time signatures are all isolated events.  A
repeat _structures_ its governed material.  How could you expect to
transfer a _structure_ to flat music?

How would you expect to have the following R1*9 be expanded into R1*13 ?

\score {
  \compressMMRests
  \new StaffGroup
  << \new Staff
 \repeat volta 3 { R1*2 }
 \alternative { { d'1 e'1 } { R1*2 } { R1*3 } }
 \new Staff R1*9
  >>
}

> Then it surprises me that they do not all end up nicely in the midi — in
> particular, the repeats do not.

There is no typeset material repeated in the typesetting either.  All
you have is consistent bars.  If the bars were to make it into the Midi,
they would likely be consistent as well.

> So my first thought is "something doesn't work". That there is a good
> explanation [thanks, David K] why it doesn't/cannot work as I would
> have expected it doesn't change the surprise.

The surprise is rather that repeat bars bleed into parts missing the
specification of repeats in the PDF.

This seems to give false expectations.  Maybe we should flag a warning
or error instead.

-- 
David Kastrup
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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Johan Vromans]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 09:39:39 -0500
David Wright  wrote:

> I'm sorry, but your wishlist has nothing to do with the statement
> "Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
> doesn't work with midi."

There is something called the principle of least surprise. I can put bars,
rehearsal marks, time signatures, repeats in \global and they all end up
nicely in all staves of the printed output.

Then it surprises me that they do not all end up nicely in the midi — in
particular, the repeats do not. So my first thought is "something doesn't
work". That there is a good explanation [thanks, David K] why it
doesn't/cannot work as I would have expected it doesn't change the surprise.

I tried to make clear that I do not consider this to be a bug
but that it would be 'nice to have'. I see nothing wrong with that.

> If you're going to make a statement like that, and be challenged,
> please supply some evidence or withdraw the remark.

I change my remark to: "Specifying the structure of a score in \global is
wonderful, it just doesn't play nice with MIDI, because no voice can impose
a MIDI repeat structure on any other."

> It's not as if this is the first time you've said that writing
> repeats in LP doesn't work in the MIDI output:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-02/msg00284.html

In this article I wrote "LilyPond doesn't deal with segno, coda, d.s. etc
either in the MIDI." Apart from being a totally different topic, would
you challenge this? Aand also, I wrote it as a statement, not a complaint
and definitely not "reports of a LP failure."

-- Johan


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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[David Wright]

On Mon 15 Aug 2016 at 09:18:57 (+0200), Johan Vromans wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 21:45:51 -0500
> David Wright  wrote:
> 
> > This is true, they are not. In fact, I don't quite understand what
> > you mean by "applying" \global "to the music parts". All the Voices
> > are just Voices, aren't they?
> > 
> > Anyway, the repeat structure has to be in all the parts
> > as summarised by David K in
> > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-07/msg00427.html
> > 
> > > Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
> > > doesn't work with midi.  
> > 
> > Which suggests that you haven't copied repeats into all the parts.
> > ...
> > But what "doesn't work" for you exactly? (We need to be told before
> > we can start looking at a problem.)
> 
> First of all, it isn't as much a problem (as in 'bug') but —for me, at
> least— a 'nice to have'.

I'm sorry, but your wishlist has nothing to do with the statement
"Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
doesn't work with midi."

If you're going to make a statement like that, and be challenged,
please supply some evidence or withdraw the remark.

It's not as if this is the first time you've said that writing
repeats in LP doesn't work in the MIDI output:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-02/msg00284.html

Sorry to be blunt, but saying something doesn't work and then
providing no evidence is asking volunteers to expend time and energy
looking into what could be just a wild-goose chase.

And please don't muddy the waters by trying to turn your wishlist
into reports of a LP failure.

> I find it very confusing that (see example t1) the repeats from
> \global are *shown* in all staffs, but not effective in the midi.
> The fact that they are shown gives the impression that they are effective,
> as in example t2.

If that is the case, perhaps you could suggest patches for §3.5.6
in NM, "Using repeats with MIDI". Perhaps
   "When using multiple voices, each of the voices must contain
completely unfolded repeats for correct MIDI output."
is too bald. It could be mentioned that no voice can impose a
repeat structure on any other.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[David Kastrup]

Mark Knoop  writes:

> At 10:32 on 15 Aug 2016, Johan Vromans wrote:
>>On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:22:14 +0200
>>David Kastrup  wrote:
>>
>>> That's not really surprising.  The "repeats are shown" just by
>>> changing the bar line type, ...  
>>
>>That is the explanation of the current behaviour.
>>
>>What I want to say is that it would be nice if instead it would
>>be like the repeats were actually present in the individual staffs,
>>just as the printed output shows it.
>
> So the request is perhaps for \unfoldRepeats (or a new command) to work
> across voices/staves:

How is \unfoldRepeats going to know which voices/staves are controlled
by the same Default_bar_line_engraver?  Because that's what's governing
the "proliferation" of repeat bars to unrepeated contexts in the
graphical output.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[David Kastrup]

Johan Vromans  writes:

> On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:22:14 +0200
> David Kastrup  wrote:
>
>> That's not really surprising.  The "repeats are shown" just by changing
>> the bar line type, ...
>
> That is the explanation of the current behaviour.
>
> What I want to say is that it would be nice if instead it would
> be like the repeats were actually present in the individual staffs,
> just as the printed output shows it.

The printed output shows that Default_bar_line_engraver (responsible for
coordinating the system-wide bar line shapes) lives at Score context
usually.

The printed output does not show a repetition of elements.  Calculation
of the length of music depends on knowing which parts are repeated and
which not.  If the music does not contain any repeat expressions but
only gets typeset in parallel to music which does, there is just no way
to reset its playback to the respective locations it had been without
every single music iterator getting a way to rewind to an arbitrary
location.  Even if it turns out that the location does not even
correspond to an actual note event (like when notes are split using the
Completion_heads_engraver).

With an actual repeat expression, at least the music structure follows
the repetition, giving reliable points to restart the iteration.

So in short: extending this "repeat bars appear across all contexts
governed by the same Default_bar_line_engraver" effect to actual
unfoldings of repeats is not likely to happen.  In Midi, a special
performer just replicating some timed part of the finished Midi stream
(rather than replaying everything) would be sort-of imaginable but it
would also be a recipe for notes started but not ended and vice versa.
And the effect would be limited to Midi.

So I also consider this pretty far into the "not going to happen" realm.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Mark Knoop]

At 10:32 on 15 Aug 2016, Johan Vromans wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:22:14 +0200
>David Kastrup  wrote:
>
>> That's not really surprising.  The "repeats are shown" just by
>> changing the bar line type, ...  
>
>That is the explanation of the current behaviour.
>
>What I want to say is that it would be nice if instead it would
>be like the repeats were actually present in the individual staffs,
>just as the printed output shows it.

So the request is perhaps for \unfoldRepeats (or a new command) to work
across voices/staves:

\version "2.19.46"
withrepeat = { c'1 \repeat volta 2 { d'2 e' } f'1 }
withoutrepeat = { a1 bes1 f }
desired = { a1 bes1 1 f }
\score { << \withrepeat \withoutrepeat >> }
\markup "current \unfoldRepeats"
\score { \unfoldRepeats << \withrepeat \withoutrepeat >> }
\markup "desired \unfoldRepeats in all staves"
\score { \unfoldRepeats << \withrepeat \desired >> }

-- 
Mark Knoop

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Johan Vromans]

On Mon, 15 Aug 2016 10:22:14 +0200
David Kastrup  wrote:

> That's not really surprising.  The "repeats are shown" just by changing
> the bar line type, ...

That is the explanation of the current behaviour.

What I want to say is that it would be nice if instead it would
be like the repeats were actually present in the individual staffs,
just as the printed output shows it.




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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[David Kastrup]

Johan Vromans  writes:

> On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 21:45:51 -0500
> David Wright  wrote:
>
>> This is true, they are not. In fact, I don't quite understand what
>> you mean by "applying" \global "to the music parts". All the Voices
>> are just Voices, aren't they?
>> 
>> Anyway, the repeat structure has to be in all the parts
>> as summarised by David K in
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-07/msg00427.html
>> 
>> > Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
>> > doesn't work with midi.  
>> 
>> Which suggests that you haven't copied repeats into all the parts.
>> ...
>> But what "doesn't work" for you exactly? (We need to be told before
>> we can start looking at a problem.)
>
> First of all, it isn't as much a problem (as in 'bug') but —for me, at
> least— a 'nice to have'.
>
> I find it very confusing that (see example t1) the repeats from
> \global are *shown* in all staffs, but not effective in the midi.

That's not really surprising.  The "repeats are shown" just by changing
the bar line type, there is no actual repetition of the graphical
content.  If you use \expandRepeats on the graphical representation, the
effect will be just as with the Midi, causing a repeat only in the
actual music containing the repeat instructions.

> The fact that they are shown gives the impression that they are
> effective, as in example t2.

They are just as effective as a \mark called "D.C. al fine".

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Johan Vromans]

On Sun, 14 Aug 2016 21:45:51 -0500
David Wright  wrote:

> This is true, they are not. In fact, I don't quite understand what
> you mean by "applying" \global "to the music parts". All the Voices
> are just Voices, aren't they?
> 
> Anyway, the repeat structure has to be in all the parts
> as summarised by David K in
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-07/msg00427.html
> 
> > Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
> > doesn't work with midi.  
> 
> Which suggests that you haven't copied repeats into all the parts.
> ...
> But what "doesn't work" for you exactly? (We need to be told before
> we can start looking at a problem.)

First of all, it isn't as much a problem (as in 'bug') but —for me, at
least— a 'nice to have'.

I find it very confusing that (see example t1) the repeats from
\global are *shown* in all staffs, but not effective in the midi.
The fact that they are shown gives the impression that they are effective,
as in example t2.
\version "2.19.45"

global = {
  s1 \bar "||" \repeat volta 2 { s1 } s1 \bar "|."
}

one = {
  c'4 e' g' c'' |
  c'4 e' g' c'' |
  c'4 e' g' c'' |
}

two = {
  g4 c' e' g' |
  g4 c' e' g' |
  g4 c' e' g' |
}

music = {
  <<
\new Staff << \global \one >>
\new Staff << \global \two >>
  >>
}

\score {
  % Note that the repeat symbols (from \global) appear on all staffs.
  \music
}

\score {
  % Note that the music does not repeat.
  \unfoldRepeats \music
  \midi{}
}

 
\version "2.19.45"

global = {
  s1 \bar "||" s1*2 \bar "|."
}

one = {
  c'4 e' g' c'' |
  \repeat volta 2 {
c'4 e' g' c'' |
  }
  c'4 e' g' c'' |
}

two = {
  g4 c' e' g' |
  \repeat volta 2 {
g4 c' e' g' |
  }
  g4 c' e' g' |
}

music = {
  <<
\new Staff << \global \one >>
\new Staff << \global \two >>
  >>
}

\score {
  % Note that the repeat symbols appear on all staffs.
  \music
}

\score {
  % Note that the music does repeat.
  \unfoldRepeats \music
  \midi{}
}

 
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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[David Wright]

On Sat 13 Aug 2016 at 10:09:11 (+0200), Johan Vromans wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 14:58:10 -0700
> "H. S. Teoh"  wrote:

I can't speak to ScoreMarks as I haven't understood it or
tried it out yet.

> > % Score for midi only
> > \score {
> > <<
> > \new Staff << \global \fluteIPart >>
> 
> For midi, \unfoldRepeats is necessary.
> Last time I tried, the repeats (in \global) were note applied to the music 
> parts.

[applying note→not]

This is true, they are not. In fact, I don't quite understand what
you mean by "applying" \global "to the music parts". All the Voices
are just Voices, aren't they?

Anyway, the repeat structure has to be in all the parts
as summarised by David K in
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2016-07/msg00427.html

> Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
> doesn't work with midi.

Which suggests that you haven't copied repeats into all the parts.
It works fine for me. The main snag is that any lyrics have to have
explicit durations specified if you want to be able to switch between
folded and unfolded. The short-cut methods like addlyrics just aren't
up to it because they can't handle rests/skips.

But what "doesn't work" for you exactly? (We need to be told before
we can start looking at a problem.)

Cheers,
David.

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 14:58:10 -0700
"H. S. Teoh"  wrote:

>   % Score for midi only
>   \score {
>   <<
>   \new Staff << \global \fluteIPart >>

For midi, \unfoldRepeats is necessary.
Last time I tried, the repeats (in \global) were note applied to the music 
parts.

Specifying the structure of a score in \global is wonderful, it just
doesn't work with midi.

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[H. S. Teoh]

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 10:58:08PM +0200, Johan Vromans wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:21:22 -0700
> "H. S. Teoh"  wrote:
> 
> > global = {
> > \tempo "Allegro" 4 = 120
> > s1*16
> > \mark "A"
> > s1*16
> > \tempo "Largo" 4 = 45
> > s1*16
> > \mark "B"
> > s1*32
> > ... % etc.
> > }
> 
> Now if this would work with repeats and midi...
[...]

For midi, I generally recommend making a separate score dedicated for
midi, that's apart from the layout score. What I usually do is something
along these lines:

fluteIPart = { ... }
fluteIIPart = { ... }
oboeIPart = { ... }
oboeIIPart = { ... }
...

% Score for layout only
\score {
<<
\new ScoreMarks { \global }
\new StaffGroup <<
\new Staff {
\partcombine \fluteIPart \fluteIIPart
}
\new Staff {
\partcombine \oboeIPart \oboeIIPart
}
... % etc.
>>
...
>>
\layout {}
}

% Score for midi only
\score {
<<
\new Staff << \global \fluteIPart >>
\new Staff << \global \fluteIIPart >>
\new Staff << \global \oboeIPart >>
\new Staff << \global \oboeIIPart >>
... % etc.
>>
\midi {}
}


T

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Try to keep an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out. -- theboz

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Johan Vromans]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 09:21:22 -0700
"H. S. Teoh"  wrote:

>   global = {
>   \tempo "Allegro" 4 = 120
>   s1*16
>   \mark "A"
>   s1*16
>   \tempo "Largo" 4 = 45
>   s1*16
>   \mark "B"
>   s1*32
>   ... % etc.
>   }

Now if this would work with repeats and midi...

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[H. S. Teoh]

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 04:29:41PM +0100, Mark Knoop wrote:
[...]
> However I have just submitted a potential fix for this, see here
> https://codereview.appspot.com/308910043/ for its progress.
[...]

Thanks so much for doing this!! Looking forward to when I can have
ScoreMarks show up properly in frenched scores.


T

-- 
The two rules of success: 1. Don't tell everything you know. -- YHL

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Kieren MacMillan]

Mark,

On Aug 12, 2016, at 11:29 AM, Mark Knoop  wrote:
> However I have just submitted a potential fix for this, see here
> https://codereview.appspot.com/308910043/ for its progress.

Thank you so much for doing this!
It will be a wonderful and helpful feature, when fully/properly implemented.

Best,
Kieren.


Kieren MacMillan, composer
‣ website: www.kierenmacmillan.info
‣ email: i...@kierenmacmillan.info


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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[H. S. Teoh]

On Fri, Aug 12, 2016 at 04:30:01PM +0200, Thomas Weber wrote:
> There are two things about rehearsal marks in orchestral scores I'd
> like to know about.
> 
> Firstly, how can I separate rehearsal marks (and other structural
> stuff like \break or \pageBreak) from the actual musical content?  Can
> I somehow add a virtual staff to carry the rehearsal mark information?
> I think I remember seeing something like that before, but I can't seem
> to find any documentation about it.
> 
> Secondly, how can I make rehearsal marks appear both on the very top
> staff and the top staff of the strings?  As far as I can see,
> rehearsal marks will always be put at the very top staff.
[...]

I use the attached file for this purpose, which is based on code that
Kieran MacMillan gave me. Here's an example usage:

\include "scoremarks.ly"

% Put your score markings here, rather than in the instrument
% parts.
global = {
\tempo "Allegro" 4 = 120
s1*16
\mark "A"
s1*16
\tempo "Largo" 4 = 45
s1*16
\mark "B"
s1*32
... % etc.
}

\score {
<<
% Basically, place ScoreMarks wherever you want
% the markings to appear in the score.
\new ScoreMarks { \global }
\new StaffGroup <<
% wind section music goes here
>>
\new StaffGroup <<
% brass section music goes here
>>
\new ScoreMarks { \global }
\new StaffGroup <<
% string section music goes here
>>
>>
\layout {}
}


T

-- 
A linguistics professor was lecturing to his class one day. "In English," he 
said, "A double negative forms a positive. In some languages, though, such as 
Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However, there is no language 
wherein a double positive can form a negative." A voice from the back of the 
room piped up, "Yeah, yeah."
\version "2.18.2"

% Make it possible to put tempo markings over multiple StaffGroups
% automatically. Credit: Kieran MacMillan.
\layout {
\context {
\type "Engraver_group"
\name ScoreMarks
\consists "Staff_collecting_engraver"
\consists "Axis_group_engraver"
\override VerticalAxisGroup.staff-affinity = #DOWN
\consists "Mark_engraver"
\consists "Time_signature_engraver"
\override TimeSignature.stencil = #point-stencil
\consists "Metronome_mark_engraver"

% Padding above ScoreMarks context
\override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-unrelatedstaff-spacing.padding = #3

% Padding below ScoreMarks context
\override VerticalAxisGroup.nonstaff-relatedstaff-spacing.padding = #0.6
}
\context {
\Score
\numericTimeSignature 
\remove "Mark_engraver"
\remove "Metronome_mark_engraver"
\accepts ScoreMarks
}
}

% vim:ai ts=4 sw=4 et:
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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Thomas Weber]

Am 12.08.2016 um 17:29 schrieb Mark Knoop:
> At 16:30 on 12 Aug 2016, Thomas Weber wrote:
>
>> Secondly, how can I make rehearsal marks appear both on the very top
>> staff and the top staff of the strings?  As far as I can see,
>> rehearsal marks will always be put at the very top staff.
> See this snippet http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=1010 which defines
> a custom context to achieve this. 
>
> Note this currently doesn't work well in a frenched score as the
> MarkLine context can't know if the staves below it are still alive.
> However I have just submitted a potential fix for this, see here
> https://codereview.appspot.com/308910043/ for its progress.
>

It's of course essential that rehearsal marks don't disappear when the score is 
frenched.  So thanks a heap for working on this!

Thomas


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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Urs Liska]

Am 12.08.2016 um 16:30 schrieb Thomas Weber:
> Secondly, how can I make rehearsal marks appear both on the very top staff 
> and the top staff of the strings?  As far as I can see, rehearsal marks will 
> always be put at the very top staff.
>

I'm not completely sure but probably by \remove-ing RehearsalMark from
the Score context and \consists-ing to the staff-s you want them to appear

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Mark Knoop]

At 16:30 on 12 Aug 2016, Thomas Weber wrote:
>There are two things about rehearsal marks in orchestral scores I'd
>like to know about.
>
>Firstly, how can I separate rehearsal marks (and other structural
>stuff like \break or \pageBreak) from the actual musical content?  Can
>I somehow add a virtual staff to carry the rehearsal mark
>information?  I think I remember seeing something like that before,
>but I can't seem to find any documentation about it.

Yes, the standard solution is to use a global variable which contains
things like rehearsal and tempo marks, meter changes, etc.

>Secondly, how can I make rehearsal marks appear both on the very top
>staff and the top staff of the strings?  As far as I can see,
>rehearsal marks will always be put at the very top staff.

See this snippet http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=1010 which defines
a custom context to achieve this. 

Note this currently doesn't work well in a frenched score as the
MarkLine context can't know if the staves below it are still alive.
However I have just submitted a potential fix for this, see here
https://codereview.appspot.com/308910043/ for its progress.

-- 
Mark Knoop

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Re: rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Urs Liska]

Am 12.08.2016 um 16:30 schrieb Thomas Weber:
> There are two things about rehearsal marks in orchestral scores I'd like to 
> know about.
>
> Firstly, how can I separate rehearsal marks (and other structural stuff like 
> \break or \pageBreak) from the actual musical content?  Can I somehow add a 
> virtual staff to carry the rehearsal mark information?  I think I remember 
> seeing something like that before, but I can't seem to find any documentation 
> about it.

Of course you can enter these in a structural Voice and add these either
to the top staff of the score or even to each staff (using polyphony).

But the better approach is using the edition-engraver
(https://github.com/openlilylib/edition-engraver) for the rehearsal
marks and probably the page-layout package
(https://github.com/openlilylib/page-layout) that wraps around the
edition-engraver.
This allows you to define independent named break-sets and apply them
with a single command (e.g. to define alternative page layouts
representing different manuscripts or target media).

Unfortunately this is still pretty undocumented :-(

HTH
Urs

>
> Secondly, how can I make rehearsal marks appear both on the very top staff 
> and the top staff of the strings?  As far as I can see, rehearsal marks will 
> always be put at the very top staff.
>
> Thanks!
> Thomas
>
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rehearsal marks: separate from content encoding and display above strings

[Thomas Weber]

There are two things about rehearsal marks in orchestral scores I'd like to 
know about.

Firstly, how can I separate rehearsal marks (and other structural stuff like 
\break or \pageBreak) from the actual musical content?  Can I somehow add a 
virtual staff to carry the rehearsal mark information?  I think I remember 
seeing something like that before, but I can't seem to find any documentation 
about it.

Secondly, how can I make rehearsal marks appear both on the very top staff and 
the top staff of the strings?  As far as I can see, rehearsal marks will always 
be put at the very top staff.

Thanks!
Thomas

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