Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
On Sat, 25 Jan 2003, John Summerfield wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > > > > Try to print a word document, without popping-up the GUI. > > I used other software than word; mostly SmartSuite. I think I could > print a WordPro doc, though maybe not a spreadsheet. Filling in forms? > No, can't simulate keyboard input without extra software. > > However, mass installs and mass updates, the facilities are there, and > from what I've seen so far, better than Debian. Partially because all those things are much easier to create on linux. e.g: mass-install: If the hardware is the same: createan image and extract it. Create a small script to edit the some minimal parameters (*very* minimal). Mass updates: Make sure everyone has a local apt source of the company, and that everyone is running apt-cron. They'll update over-night . If you want to initiate it: add a script that runs 'apt-get update' etc. on all of them. There are a number of systems (havea look in freshmeat)for convinient execution of ssh on multiple servers. Mass-installs on different hardware: This is indeed one weak point of debian. It is not that hard to ammend. I know some people working on quite similar things. Whenever someone will really need such a thing, it will be added to debian ;-) -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
Hello from Gregg C Levine No, you implied something completely different. Your e-mail contained something completely different. Therefore I'm still right. --- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda ) > -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of > Phil Payne > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 6:03 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] Microsoft shows Linux some respect > > > Phil, I take an insult from that last line. It so happens that the > Patriots that we sold the Israelis just before the Gulf war, had a big > problem. > > Erm - yup. Wasn't that what I said? > > > Get your facts right, before you stuff your feet in your mouth, and alienate all of > us. > > http://www.cdi.org/issues/bmd/Patriot.html > > -- > Phil Payne > http://www.isham-research.com > +44 7785 302 803 > +49 173 6242039
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
> Phil, I take an insult from that last line. It so happens that the Patriots that we sold the Israelis just before the Gulf war, had a big problem. Erm - yup. Wasn't that what I said? > Get your facts right, before you stuff your feet in your mouth, and alienate all of >us. http://www.cdi.org/issues/bmd/Patriot.html -- Phil Payne http://www.isham-research.com +44 7785 302 803 +49 173 6242039
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
Hello again from Gregg C Levine Phil, I take an insult from that last line. It so happens that the Patriots that we sold the Israelis just before the Gulf war, had a big problem. Us. We blew it on the software behind the whole systems. The Block II, and Block III birds are all fully capable. It was a cumulative error as I recall. Get your facts right, before you stuff your feet in your mouth, and alienate all of us. And it happens that the software that Microsoft is writing now, is several times better, but no better the stuff that Linux wears, someplace. Its also * expensive, so that maybe part of your diatribe. So, I think you've goofed big time. --- Gregg C Levine [EMAIL PROTECTED] "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi "Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi ) (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda ) > -Original Message- > From: Linux on 390 Port [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of > Phil Payne > Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 4:54 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [LINUX-390] Microsoft shows Linux some respect > > > > Quote from article: > > > "I still believe Linux is an extension of the Unix paradigm. It's a > > > command-line-focused approach that's not particularly designed to be > > > user friendly. The Windows approach is very different. > > > > Read: windows is not scriptable. > > I call it the "trained monkey" approach. To get anything done with Windows > applications, you > have to sit in front of the thing and practice hand-eye co-ordination. I also stopped > talking to the world in little pictures at the age of three. > > > Also note: now they try to say that linux is "something of IBM". This > > strategy will only work until HP will show more public interest in linux > > HP has claimed only this week to be the largest Linux vendor with revenues of > $2bn. They're > also running non-disclosure briefings with analysts right at this moment. > > For fun: > > http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/03/01/23/030123hnunixdeath.xm l > > Amongst other things, a 64-bit DB2 beta from IBM. Wasn't someone here looking > for that? And: > > http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_5.html > > "Industry sources said this was the largest contract between Israel's > Defense Ministry and Microsoft. They said the company will supply Israel's > defense and military establishment with services in the field of data > protection that will prevent hackers from entering and disrupting computers > in the military and security agencies." > > Let's hope they're a little more effective than the Patriots. Gullible bunch, the Israeli > military. > > -- > Phil Payne > http://www.isham-research.com > +44 7785 302 803 > +49 173 6242039
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
On Friday 24 January 2003 01:53, you wrote: > I call it the "trained monkey" approach. To get anything done with Windows > applications, you have to sit in front of the thing and practice hand-eye > co-ordination. I also stopped talking to the world in little pictures at > the age of three. I never quite looked at it this way, but your right. > HP has claimed only this week to be the largest Linux vendor with revenues > of $2bn. They're also running non-disclosure briefings with analysts right > at this moment. Compaq is still a big investor in open source, even after the merger. In 1999 you could purchase a Proliant server with RedHat. > Amongst other things, a 64-bit DB2 beta from IBM. Wasn't someone here > looking for that? And: I think that was the IBM JDK in 64bit. > "Industry sources said this was the largest contract between Israel's > Defense Ministry and Microsoft. They said the company will supply Israel's > defense and military establishment with services in the field of data > protection that will prevent hackers from entering and disrupting computers > in the military and security agencies." > > Let's hope they're a little more effective than the Patriots. Gullible > bunch, the Israeli military. Oh boy, they're Palestinians enemies are dancing in the streets now. I thought Isreal was a US partner, I was wrong.
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > Try to print a word document, without popping-up the GUI. I used other software than word; mostly SmartSuite. I think I could print a WordPro doc, though maybe not a spreadsheet. Filling in forms? No, can't simulate keyboard input without extra software. However, mass installs and mass updates, the facilities are there, and from what I've seen so far, better than Debian. -- Cheers John. Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
On Fri, 2003-01-24 at 04:57, John Summerfield wrote: > > Read: windows is not scriptable. > Not _quite_ true. Some years ago I write a script (standard dosish batch file) There's also the Activestate Perl implementation. Quite good, if you do Perl. -- David Andrews A. Duda and Sons, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
On Fri, 24 Jan 2003, John Summerfield wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:21, you wrote: > > > Comment: > > > I just had a friend the other night try to upgrade a Windows98 system > > > to WindowsXP. The installer Wizard let him without any complaint. No > > > warnings about compatibility issues or anything. He then installed a > > > wireless card with drivers and that install trashed his system. When he > > > went to recover using the supplied XP tools it further trashed his > > > system so he could not even boot. He called tech support for the > > > wireless card and was told it is an operating system error and once he > > > got that fixed just download the newest drivers from the website. Some > > > upgrade path, a little more "heavy lifting" type programming all around > > > would have saved my friend a frustrating couple of days. > > > > I also wish that every OS would give me the same upgrade path debian gives > > me. > > I'm not sure where this is going, and I may regret this > > I've just this minute finished upgrading a Pentium from Woody to Unstable. > > Taken singly, it was easy enough I guess, but I'd hate to do ten of them. > > OTOH, RHL with which I'm much more familiar, is a piece of cake in comparison, > especially with lots of them. > > Sure, there's a lot to like in Debian, but the installer sure isn't one of > them. I agree about the installer, but I was talking about something else: you have a potato and want to upgrade to woody. (That's debian 2.2 and 3.0). BTW: the fact that "unstable", that keeps getting updated, almost doesn't break, shows you how solid a base debian is. > > > > Quote from article: > > > "I still believe Linux is an extension of the Unix paradigm. It's a > > > command-line-focused approach that's not particularly designed to be > > > user friendly. The Windows approach is very different. > > > > Read: windows is not scriptable. > > Not _quite_ true. Some years ago I write a script (standard dosish batch file) > to pack some data up and send it off to an MVS system using the standard NT > ftp client. However, I never found anything to compare with what I could do > in OS/2 where I could easily customise its equivalent to the Windows > registry. You can do *some things*, but not *everything* > > > > > I will say that > > > the adoption of Linux is likely to be bounded by how many companies are > > > happy with Unix. Will it have an ability to be persuasive to people that > > > it's a more cost-effective version of Unix? Yes. For us the key > > > challenge in 2003 will be speaking to Unix users about why they ought > > > to use Windows on Intel rather than Linux on Intel." > > > > I always thought that it was easier to write a GUI to a scriptable system > > than to make a GUI system scriptable... > > > > > > Aparantly I was right. > > As best I can figure it, Bill hasn't tried. Either that, or the facility is an > extra-charge item. Most people would regard OS/2 s a GUI-based system, though > in truth you can run it without a GUI or even replace the GUI with another. > I've done both. > > And, it's well scriptable. You can do almost anything in REXX (a standard, > fully-documented component of the base OS) that you can do in Perl (and you > can do almost anything in Perl you can do in REXX). Try to print a word document, without popping-up the GUI. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 17:21, you wrote: > > Comment: > > I just had a friend the other night try to upgrade a Windows98 system > > to WindowsXP. The installer Wizard let him without any complaint. No > > warnings about compatibility issues or anything. He then installed a > > wireless card with drivers and that install trashed his system. When he > > went to recover using the supplied XP tools it further trashed his > > system so he could not even boot. He called tech support for the > > wireless card and was told it is an operating system error and once he > > got that fixed just download the newest drivers from the website. Some > > upgrade path, a little more "heavy lifting" type programming all around > > would have saved my friend a frustrating couple of days. > > I also wish that every OS would give me the same upgrade path debian gives > me. I'm not sure where this is going, and I may regret this I've just this minute finished upgrading a Pentium from Woody to Unstable. Taken singly, it was easy enough I guess, but I'd hate to do ten of them. OTOH, RHL with which I'm much more familiar, is a piece of cake in comparison, especially with lots of them. Sure, there's a lot to like in Debian, but the installer sure isn't one of them. > > Quote from article: > > "I still believe Linux is an extension of the Unix paradigm. It's a > > command-line-focused approach that's not particularly designed to be > > user friendly. The Windows approach is very different. > > Read: windows is not scriptable. Not _quite_ true. Some years ago I write a script (standard dosish batch file) to pack some data up and send it off to an MVS system using the standard NT ftp client. However, I never found anything to compare with what I could do in OS/2 where I could easily customise its equivalent to the Windows registry. > > > I will say that > > the adoption of Linux is likely to be bounded by how many companies are > > happy with Unix. Will it have an ability to be persuasive to people that > > it's a more cost-effective version of Unix? Yes. For us the key > > challenge in 2003 will be speaking to Unix users about why they ought > > to use Windows on Intel rather than Linux on Intel." > > I always thought that it was easier to write a GUI to a scriptable system > than to make a GUI system scriptable... > > > Aparantly I was right. As best I can figure it, Bill hasn't tried. Either that, or the facility is an extra-charge item. Most people would regard OS/2 s a GUI-based system, though in truth you can run it without a GUI or even replace the GUI with another. I've done both. And, it's well scriptable. You can do almost anything in REXX (a standard, fully-documented component of the base OS) that you can do in Perl (and you can do almost anything in Perl you can do in REXX). -- Cheers John Summerfield Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
> > Quote from article: > > "I still believe Linux is an extension of the Unix paradigm. It's a > > command-line-focused approach that's not particularly designed to be > > user friendly. The Windows approach is very different. > > Read: windows is not scriptable. I call it the "trained monkey" approach. To get anything done with Windows applications, you have to sit in front of the thing and practice hand-eye co-ordination. I also stopped talking to the world in little pictures at the age of three. > Also note: now they try to say that linux is "something of IBM". This > strategy will only work until HP will show more public interest in linux HP has claimed only this week to be the largest Linux vendor with revenues of $2bn. They're also running non-disclosure briefings with analysts right at this moment. For fun: http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/03/01/23/030123hnunixdeath.xml Amongst other things, a 64-bit DB2 beta from IBM. Wasn't someone here looking for that? And: http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_5.html "Industry sources said this was the largest contract between Israel's Defense Ministry and Microsoft. They said the company will supply Israel's defense and military establishment with services in the field of data protection that will prevent hackers from entering and disrupting computers in the military and security agencies." Let's hope they're a little more effective than the Patriots. Gullible bunch, the Israeli military. -- Phil Payne http://www.isham-research.com +44 7785 302 803 +49 173 6242039
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
On Thu, 23 Jan 2003, Bill Stermer wrote: > Some comments: > > Quote from article: > "When I was a developer, I found that about 10 percent of the work you > did was writing new functionality. The rest of the work to build > enterprise-ready technology involved things like the testing and the > upgrade path. The 10 percent is the fun stuff; the 90 percent is the > heavy lifting. We have done a great job of learning what it means to do > the heavy lifting, but I don't think the (Linux) community has focused > as much in focusing on that 90 percent" > > Comment: > I just had a friend the other night try to upgrade a Windows98 system > to WindowsXP. The installer Wizard let him without any complaint. No > warnings about compatibility issues or anything. He then installed a > wireless card with drivers and that install trashed his system. When he > went to recover using the supplied XP tools it further trashed his > system so he could not even boot. He called tech support for the > wireless card and was told it is an operating system error and once he > got that fixed just download the newest drivers from the website. Some > upgrade path, a little more "heavy lifting" type programming all around > would have saved my friend a frustrating couple of days. > I also wish that every OS would give me the same upgrade path debian gives me. > Quote from article: > "I still believe Linux is an extension of the Unix paradigm. It's a > command-line-focused approach that's not particularly designed to be > user friendly. The Windows approach is very different. Read: windows is not scriptable. > I will say that > the adoption of Linux is likely to be bounded by how many companies are > happy with Unix. Will it have an ability to be persuasive to people that > it's a more cost-effective version of Unix? Yes. For us the key > challenge in 2003 will be speaking to Unix users about why they ought > to use Windows on Intel rather than Linux on Intel." I always thought that it was easier to write a GUI to a scriptable system than to make a GUI system scriptable... Aparantly I was right. Anyway, so far they did a very bad job at this. Their had to stretch the facts really hard to get a TCO study that would say so) Also note: now they try to say that linux is "something of IBM". This strategy will only work until HP will show more public interest in linux ;-) -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
Some comments: Quote from article: "When I was a developer, I found that about 10 percent of the work you did was writing new functionality. The rest of the work to build enterprise-ready technology involved things like the testing and the upgrade path. The 10 percent is the fun stuff; the 90 percent is the heavy lifting. We have done a great job of learning what it means to do the heavy lifting, but I don't think the (Linux) community has focused as much in focusing on that 90 percent" Comment: I just had a friend the other night try to upgrade a Windows98 system to WindowsXP. The installer Wizard let him without any complaint. No warnings about compatibility issues or anything. He then installed a wireless card with drivers and that install trashed his system. When he went to recover using the supplied XP tools it further trashed his system so he could not even boot. He called tech support for the wireless card and was told it is an operating system error and once he got that fixed just download the newest drivers from the website. Some upgrade path, a little more "heavy lifting" type programming all around would have saved my friend a frustrating couple of days. A fellow employee just bought three manuals dealing exclusively with WindowsXP from three different publishers, Microsoft being one, and all three manuals conflict on various subjects. He is adopting the attitude that if two of the manuals "kinda agree" on the subject then ignore the third until proven wrong. Quote from article: "I still believe Linux is an extension of the Unix paradigm. It's a command-line-focused approach that's not particularly designed to be user friendly. The Windows approach is very different. I will say that the adoption of Linux is likely to be bounded by how many companies are happy with Unix. Will it have an ability to be persuasive to people that it's a more cost-effective version of Unix? Yes. For us the key challenge in 2003 will be speaking to Unix users about why they ought to use Windows on Intel rather than Linux on Intel." Comment: Sounds like Apple Macintosh versus MS Windows circa 1988And you see where that argument got Apple... > -Original Message- > From: paultz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: January 23, 2003 2:06 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Microsoft shows Linux some respect > > > Did you all see this? Looks like the MS spin doctors finally figured > out that the "Linux is an anti-capitalistic cancer" approach wasn't > going to work! > > http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-981552.html >
Re: Microsoft shows Linux some respect
> Did you all see this? Looks like the MS spin doctors finally figured > out that the "Linux is an anti-capitalistic cancer" approach wasn't > going to work! > > http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-981552.html Well, it's Linuxworld and Linux is news. How about this one: http://siliconvalley.internet.com/news/article.php/1573491 Note the "users" may be infringing, not the "vendors". -- Phil Payne http://www.isham-research.com +44 7785 302 803 +49 173 6242039
Microsoft shows Linux some respect
Did you all see this? Looks like the MS spin doctors finally figured out that the "Linux is an anti-capitalistic cancer" approach wasn't going to work! http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104-981552.html
