Re: A contented linux user
Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 08:52:37PM +0800, Chong Yu Meng wrote: Actually, I have to say that in certain cases, it *is* cheaper and even more stable to run Microsoft than Linux or Solaris, or any kind of UNIX. It's generally easier to find a Sys Admin who is familiar with Windows than someone who is familiar with UNIX. You can't swing a dead cat in a roomful of technical professionals without hitting a Windows person -- in fact, probably everyone in the room is a Windows person, if you live Just thinking about this comment. Our very large hospital system (5 hospitals) is an all windows shop, except for systems bought from and maintained by outside vendors, like a pathology or radiology system. All desktop OS's and software used by individuals is MS. I believe our servers are also MS. What this means is that almost nobody in our very large IS dept is really a dedicated computer person. They are mostly retreads from various departments like nursing or radiology who wanted to do something different, so, they become analysts for IS. The attitude is that almost anybody with just an interest in computers can learn to handle MS. These are the people we are supposed to go to for computer problems and help. As a result, we don't do anything interesting with computers. We never capture the efficiencies promised by computerization because our IS people don't know or care enough to find ways to actually make our computers improve our performance. For example, in anatomic pathology, we generate thousands of individual, descriptive reports each year. This is an area where an intelligently configured computer system could save time. However, we still have the same number of secretaries we had before computerization, despite the fact that our work load has fallen substantially in the last 12 years. The computers we get and install actually slow down the work, not speed things up. It is surprising how fast a good secretary is with a typewriter. The computers put a greater work load on the pathologists (an expensive resource!). The IS people haven't a clue how to find ways to make the computers actually save us work. Furthermore, they don't care. Management also is clueless. They think having computers which slow you down is fine. MS software can do a lot. I am very impressed by VBA and the new script engines in windows. (We don't have a linux option in my place.) I recently asked IS for help with visual basic. Nobody in IS knew visual basic. The cheap IS people we hire don't even know how to use MS software. That's why they are cheap. So, having cheap IS people may look good on the IS budget, but, my experience is that cheap IS people are very expensive. But, the losses caused by such people appear on other people's budgets. Joel ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
what is politions Bob - Original Message - From: Bob Hemus [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 8:08 PM Subject: Re: A contented linux user Bill Campbell wrote: On Sat, Sep 13, 2003, joel wrote: There was a lot of correspondence generated by that essay. It would be nice if all linux advocates bothered to learn to use correct English grammar and spelling, but, such is life. No worse than many teachers in the U.S. Government schools. RANT My gracious, How many people anywhere do you hear use the nomnitive case of the personal pronoun after an intransitive verb? Always use the objective form after a preposition or a transitive verb? Split infinitives? As a retired teacher it blows me away the language I hear educators use. They make up more verbs from nouns and nouns from vebs and ... I can hardly stand it. There are plenty of fine words in the English language. Politions are as bad or maybe worse. If decent English isn't used at home or corrected when used anywhere it just gets worse and worse. Teachers at work used to give me a lot of static when I would correct them. END RANT sorry, Bob ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
On Sat, Sep 13, 2003, joel wrote: There was a lot of correspondence generated by that essay. It would be nice if all linux advocates bothered to learn to use correct English grammar and spelling, but, such is life. No worse than many teachers in the U.S. Government schools. Of more interest was the claim by one fellow that their switch to linux worked great until a couple of guys left who knew linux and then everything fell apart. He even claimed they got hit by viruses. Now, how can viruses affect linux if you are running the boxes properly? This one fellow sounded like he worked for a company that didn't have procedure manuals. In my place of work, a hospital, we have procedure manuals for every conceivable task. The vast majority of my small-to-medium business customers running Linux don't have any full-time IT staff. We provide on-line support, and rarely have to go on-site. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a refund from the IRS, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
Actually, I have to say that in certain cases, it *is* cheaper and even more stable to run Microsoft than Linux or Solaris, or any kind of UNIX. It's generally easier to find a Sys Admin who is familiar with Windows than someone who is familiar with UNIX. You can't swing a dead cat in a roomful of technical professionals without hitting a Windows person -- in fact, probably everyone in the room is a Windows person, if you live in Singapore or any part of Southeast Asia. That person is more likely to be able to setup a secure Windows server and apply patches all day everyday (in fact, that's probably what he does, besides trying to chat up the secretary, making coffee and rebooting and/or re-installing software) and accept lower wages. What about the license fees, you ask? Well, the copy running on his server probably isn't even legal. Try installing Red Hat here and you'll find : 1. The people that really know UNIX/Linux don't come cheap. You have to hand-hold and educate those that do not have skills in this area, and these people are normally reluctant learners. 2. Those that have a little knowledge in this area are the ones you need to watch out for, because they normally botch the software or server installs, resulting in a non-secure and unstable system. You will get lots of excuses from them, and denials -- and an unstable UNIX/Linux server! For me, I have a few personal guidelines on the choice of going with Microsoft or Linux or UNIX : 1. If you have no budget, but you have a lot of time -- go with Linux. Because you will likely be going it alone, you need the time, and you don't have to ask the boss for a budget. But document everything as you go along, because, at some point, you will need to hand over to someone else. 2. If you have a small budget and some time -- go with Linux, because the small budget is probably for hardware only, and does not include software licenses. Use the time to build a system that works well with minimal supervision (Linux + great hardware = awesome!) 3. If you have a lot of money but very little time -- go with Microsoft, because you can hire a whole herd of ASP programmers and SysAdmins for peanuts and get up and running very quickly. 4. If you have a lot of money and a lot of time -- go with Sun or AIX (forget SCO!), because you can hire good people to do a good job, once and (hopefully) for all. All this assumes that you know UNIX/Linux very well yourself! If you do not, then only option 3 will work, and you'd better be very persuasive. Regards, pascal chong Bill Campbell wrote: On Sat, Sep 13, 2003, joel wrote: There was a lot of correspondence generated by that essay. It would be nice if all linux advocates bothered to learn to use correct English grammar and spelling, but, such is life. No worse than many teachers in the U.S. Government schools. Of more interest was the claim by one fellow that their switch to linux worked great until a couple of guys left who knew linux and then everything fell apart. He even claimed they got hit by viruses. Now, how can viruses affect linux if you are running the boxes properly? This one fellow sounded like he worked for a company that didn't have procedure manuals. In my place of work, a hospital, we have procedure manuals for every conceivable task. The vast majority of my small-to-medium business customers running Linux don't have any full-time IT staff. We provide on-line support, and rarely have to go on-site. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 URL: http://www.celestial.com/ Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a refund from the IRS, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 08:52:37PM +0800, Chong Yu Meng wrote: Actually, I have to say that in certain cases, it *is* cheaper and even more stable to run Microsoft than Linux or Solaris, or any kind of UNIX. It's generally easier to find a Sys Admin who is familiar with Windows than someone who is familiar with UNIX. You can't swing a dead cat in a roomful of technical professionals without hitting a Windows person -- in fact, probably everyone in the room is a Windows person, if you live in Singapore or any part of Southeast Asia. That person is more likely to be able to setup a secure Windows server and apply patches all day everyday (in fact, that's probably what he does, besides trying to chat I think Asia is a bit different from the USA. In Asia, as I understand it, intellectual copyrights are not rigorously enforced. Does MS make raids on businesses in Singapore to look for valid licenses? When MS feels the pain (It made 16 billion last year, so no pain yet) it might actually get a lot tougher on software pirates. If MS software is free, it IS a good bargain and why not use it. Upgrades costs will be minimal, too, so MS can't just gouge you as it sees fit. Having to pay for software that others use for free is just one more extra burden for American business. It seems odd that US based firms don't sue MS for not enforcing its copyrights in Asia. That might be a good class action suit! OT_RANTI can't help but compare this situation to the drug industry. We Americans pay more for pharmaceuticals because we respect copyright laws, whereas in Europe the governments are monoply buyers and threaten to make their own generics if the pharmaceutical companies don't meet their price. European drug companies are shifting their efforts to the United States, also. This can't go on, and already Americans are finding out ways to buy cheaper drugs from Canada. This will of course lead to fundelmental changes in the pharmaceutical industry, that is to say, a lot less drug research and a lot fewer new drugs. If you don't think this is important, think about the improvements in drug therapy for heart disease and cancer in the last 40 years. Naturally, certain types of politicians paint the drugs companies as bad guys. In a democracy, people in the long run get what they deserve. /OT_RANT Joel ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
[ snips ] On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:50:49 -0400 Joel Hammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OT_RANTI can't help but compare this situation to the drug industry. We Americans pay more for pharmaceuticals because we respect copyright laws ... This can't go on, and already Americans are finding out ways to buy cheaper drugs from Canada. This will of course lead to fundelmental changes in the pharmaceutical industry, that is to say, a lot less drug research and a lot fewer new drugs. /OT_RANT Wrong, in true American fashion, this will only lead to new draconian laws that make it highly illegal for Americans to purchase cheaper drugs from abroad. The American drug companies will be protected at all costs. -- Collins Richey - Denver Area if you fill your heart with regrets of yesterday and the worries of tomorrow, you have no today to be thankful for. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 02:34 am, Collins Richey wrote: [ snips ] On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:50:49 -0400 Joel Hammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OT_RANTI can't help but compare this situation to the drug industry. We Americans pay more for pharmaceuticals because we respect copyright laws ... This can't go on, and already Americans are finding out ways to buy cheaper drugs from Canada. This will of course lead to fundelmental changes in the pharmaceutical industry, that is to say, a lot less drug research and a lot fewer new drugs. /OT_RANT Wrong, in true American fashion, this will only lead to new draconian laws that make it highly illegal for Americans to purchase cheaper drugs from abroad. The American drug companies will be protected at all costs. And the said drug companies will/do dump those drugs that are declared unsafe in the US on other unsuspecting countries. There are some great examples in Oz at the moment I am informed. -- Keith Antoine (GANDALF) aka 'SKIPPY' 18 Arkana St, The Gap, Queensland 4061, Australia:: PH:61733002161 Practising Geriatric, Retired Electronics Engineer, Knowall, Brain in storage ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 06:56:39 +1000 Keith Antoine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And the said drug companies will/do dump those drugs that are declared unsafe in the US on other unsuspecting countries. There are some great examples in Oz at the moment I am informed. But I hope are not taking! Terence ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
Bill Campbell wrote: On Sat, Sep 13, 2003, joel wrote: There was a lot of correspondence generated by that essay. It would be nice if all linux advocates bothered to learn to use correct English grammar and spelling, but, such is life. No worse than many teachers in the U.S. Government schools. RANT My gracious, How many people anywhere do you hear use the nomnitive case of the personal pronoun after an intransitive verb? Always use the objective form after a preposition or a transitive verb? Split infinitives? As a retired teacher it blows me away the language I hear educators use. They make up more verbs from nouns and nouns from vebs and ... I can hardly stand it. There are plenty of fine words in the English language. Politions are as bad or maybe worse. If decent English isn't used at home or corrected when used anywhere it just gets worse and worse. Teachers at work used to give me a lot of static when I would correct them. END RANT sorry, Bob ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
Collins Richey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sun, 14 Sep 2003 10:34:04 -0600 [ snips ] On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 09:50:49 -0400 Joel Hammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OT_RANTI can't help but compare this situation to the drug industry. We Americans pay more for pharmaceuticals because we respect copyright laws ... This can't go on, and already Americans are finding out ways to buy cheaper drugs from Canada. This will of course lead to fundelmental changes in the pharmaceutical industry, that is to say, a lot less drug research and a lot fewer new drugs. /OT_RANT Wrong, in true American fashion, this will only lead to new draconian laws that make it highly illegal for Americans to purchase cheaper drugs from abroad. The American drug companies will be protected at all costs. Extant laws will do. If the drug companies change any step in the production or packaging of the product, the FDA must reaprove the process. So changing the final packaging will make the drugs illegal in the US. Problem solved. -- Alma ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
Re: A contented linux user
There was a lot of correspondence generated by that essay. It would be nice if all linux advocates bothered to learn to use correct English grammar and spelling, but, such is life. Of more interest was the claim by one fellow that their switch to linux worked great until a couple of guys left who knew linux and then everything fell apart. He even claimed they got hit by viruses. Now, how can viruses affect linux if you are running the boxes properly? This one fellow sounded like he worked for a company that didn't have procedure manuals. In my place of work, a hospital, we have procedure manuals for every conceivable task. IT SEEMS TO ME that MS is giving linux a great opening for at least three reasons: 1. MS is still expensive. 2. MS is still insecure. 3. MS is getting nonstandard. This isn't talked about much, but there are so many version of MS out there (I still use Windows 95 for my desktop machine, works fine.) that windows is in danger of losing that which makes windows so desirable, standardization. There are even different versions of powerpoint for different versions of windows. This is not making MS look good. However, MS makes its money by selling software, and so it has to keep changing its software and forcing its users to upgrade, both software and hardware. MS generated 16 billion in free cash flow in the last 12 months. Their strategy is working fine. I guess people don't see that as excessive. However, imagine if linux could be understood by CEO's to offer a more stable and standard platform than windows. Imagine, Mr. CEO, no more being forced to upgrade because MS needs more money. Upgrade only when you want to and can afford to. Sounds like a good sales pitch to me. Joel Collins Richey wrote: Even though entitled with the eggregious GNU/linux moniker, this is a really great article: http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/09/12/1733209 What makes it even better, is the article is squeezed between Microsoft ads chuckle. ___ Linux-users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe/Suspend/Etc - http://www.linux-sxs.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-users
