[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(4)
On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote: That's an attitude that might make sense if you believe the future will just be like the present, and I'd probably agree with you if the roads were still full of black Model Ts, but they're not and so I won't. I don't see a future with just a few OSs having 90% of the market, but dozens of them and in every device imaginable. And of course, they'll all be chattering to each other over the Net. This is why cross-platform matters. The future is probably no OS with more than 20% of the market - when you include phones in the market... Like you I also drooled over an Atari 800, but bought a ZX81 instead. Had two Commodore 64s since then, three Amigas... And you know what? I'm sick of leaving my programs behind with each change of platform, or having them become useless because of an OS upgrade. I'm also sick of having to learn new programming languages with every switch of platform. REBOL's probably a nice language, (give me time:), but if it wasn't cross-platform I wouldn't be here. As to EPOC32, it's the Psions's OS. See... http://www.psion.com/ They look kinda nice and kinda fun and are apparently quite popular. Give me a good reason why they should be ignored? Yes fantastic! _That_ is what I try to say whole the time. The future of OSs is very similar to REBOLs dialecting facilities! We will have highly specialized OSs but can run (With some limits) the same applications on all of them. Some applications will need a special OS/Device but a huge amount of standard software will run everywhere. Regards, Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] eBay manager program Re:(2)
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 11:19 PM Subject: [REBOL] eBay manager program Re: It might provide some visibility when thousands of ads and emails read "ReBay - Powered by Rebol". And thousands of new people would be downloading Rebol to use it, and maybe seeing what else Rebol can do. I'm pretty sure EBay sued a company for re-using data from it's site without permission. The company was scanning ebay and other auction/sales sites to create a "best buys" list. So tread carefully and get permission before doing this sort of application on a commercial scale. Cheers, Allen K
[REBOL] DIALECT IN REBOL: why advanced documentation so poor in Rebol ? Re:
At 04:18 PM 9/23/00 +0200, you wrote: Since I am evaluating the language, I am mostly interested about its advanced features. Although there are hundreds of pages of very good documentation about the basic syntax of Rebol it really lacks documentation about the most advanced features which Rebol advertise on like its dialecting features. I can't see where it is documented ? Thanks. The best example for a dialect is VID, the Visual Interface Dialect that accompanies REBOL/View (experimental). Review the documentation and investigate the source code. That should give you some idea of dialecting. ;- Elan [ : - ) ] author of REBOL: THE OFFICIAL GUIDE REBOL Press: The Official Source for REBOL Books http://www.REBOLpress.com visit me at http://www.TechScribe.com
[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(4)
Heh, RT was offered possibility of bundling REBOL as a package with default distribution of RtP which is gonna be available in few days (26.9.) by CEO of QSSL, Dan Dodge. I've suggested Carl to go for it. greenboy, chief of Phoenix developers consortium suggested REBOL/View to Carl too IIRC, but now you can see how the company thinks of what is/what is not important sadly ... -pekr- Holy Moly! What was Rebol thinkingThat would have been a great opportunity considering there probably isn't much effort needed into porting to qnx rtp. This is shocking to me that they passed up this opportunity...especially considering a lot of the people who will initially be using qnx rtp are coming from the amiga and beos (like me) crowd...exactly the same type of people who would use rebol. What a shame Rishi
[REBOL] eBay manager program Re:(3)
This would be a program to manage a buyers' or sellers' own auction transactions. There are already programs that do some of what I was suggesting. I don't think it would be in competition with eBay, but would make it more profitable for sellers and save time for buyers, thus increasing eBay's business. Everybody wins. It might not be a good idea to call it ReBay, though. Remember Lava? But, some research would be prudent before proceeding. [EMAIL PROTECTED] said at Ò[REBOL] eBay manager program Re:(2)Ó. [Sep/24/2000Sun 02:05] - -- Original Message - -From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 11:19 PM -Subject: [REBOL] eBay manager program Re: - - - It might provide some visibility when thousands of ads and emails - read "ReBay - Powered by Rebol". And thousands of new people would -be - downloading Rebol to use it, and maybe seeing what else Rebol can -do. - -I'm pretty sure EBay sued a company for re-using data from it's site -without -permission. The company was scanning ebay and other auction/sales -sites to -create a "best buys" list. - -So tread carefully and get permission before doing this sort of -application -on a commercial scale. - -Cheers, - -Allen K - - -- Jack Seay [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.earthlink.net/~jackseay/jack
[REBOL] New View 0.10.34 Re:
A couple feature request regarding file browsel - ability to browse remote directory (ftp://.) - graphical display of hierarchy of folders...I'm curious if there was a reason to omit this...why enter path manually when it can be done both graphically and/or manually? To processing intensive? Rishi Fixed various bugs. Adds file requestors. Numerous other changes. Note: face actions created by VID are now functions. This allows you to refer to the active face from within the action block. For example: toggle "True" "False" [print value] field [print face/data] The blocks are used as the body of a function that is defined as: func [face value] Most scripts should still work. Ones that make assumptions about the datatype of the action will not. Use get in face 'action to deal with actions directly. Check out What's Up for more info. Holger also fixed sort! Much better. Jeff has also fixed crash in hash datatypes, so those should work better too. There are also various other fixes included. -Carl
[REBOL] a GC bug of the second kind
Jeff already signaled, that List! and Hash! datatypes are being fixed. I succeeded to track down the behaviour to the following: h: make hash! 0 insert h copy "0123456789" h recycle insert h copy "0123456789" CRASH! just in case you didn't know... Regards Ladislav
[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(4)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said at Ò[REBOL] Re: Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but Re:(2)Ó. [Sep/24/2000Sun 00:56] ... ... - Gotta go with the status quo. ... ... -That's an attitude that might make sense if you believe the future -will just be like the present, and I'd probably agree with you if the -roads were still full of black Model Ts, but they're not and so I won't. I also don't believe Winxx, Macxx, and *nix are the OS's that will be used by most people 10 years from now. They won't be able to compete with the new generation of OS's, of which BeOS, QNX and Amiga/Elate are examples. Even these will probably be surpassed in a few years. We probably won't even call them OS's anymore, but distributed agent/ objects or something. They will have multi-dimensional unbreakable links, automatic version archiving and comparison, no configuration problems, be multi and distributed processing, and will adapt to the user instead of forcing the opposite. They will provide for automatic or easy payments of royalties, allow simple comment adding to any document, and won't require years of study to be able to produce an interactive document-program. And your whole work setup and all files will be securely and instantly at your service from any computer on the net. Every computer will be both server and client without requiring a computer science degree to configure and protect. You can't do all this using the status quo, but it can all be done, and is in development right now. -I don't see a future with just a few OSs having 90% of the market, but -dozens of them and in every device imaginable. And of course, -they'll all be chattering to each other over the Net. This is why -cross-platform matters. The future is probably no OS with more than -20% of the market - when you include phones in the market... This will make cross-platform languages and data the norm. -Like you I also drooled over an Atari 800, but bought a ZX81 instead. -Had two Commodore 64s since then, three Amigas... And you know what? - I'm sick of leaving my programs behind with each change of platform, -or having them become useless because of an OS upgrade. I'm also -sick of having to learn new programming languages with every switch -of platform. REBOL's probably a nice language, (give me time:), but -if it wasn't cross-platform I wouldn't be here. My computer history is almost identical to yours: ZX81, C64, 4 Amigas, and 2 Mac laptops. In the future, I also want to have data and programs that will follow me to my next system, or I should say follow me around. -- Jack Seay [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.earthlink.net/~jackseay/jack
[REBOL] Printing on printers Re:(2)
pekr wrote: I think if you can - just generate .html output and browse it ... print from your browser. Earlier, I wrote a Rebol script that generated HTML and JavaScript so that the HTML document is automatically printed. I put it on this list, but I don't recall the message number. If you go hunting around the archive for the last month or two, you should find it. Hmm, maybe Carl or someone else could tell us what's the story with printing in REBOL? Would it be really complicated to add platform native print dialog call into REBOL? It would be nice to have a print dialog in Rebol. Along with some sound code. And maybe joystick as well. Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://members.ncbi.com/AndrewMartin/ http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ --
[REBOL] How do I? - Get FTP to work with NCBi? Re:(2)
The best way to get FTP to work with NBCi is to spell their name correctly! ftp.nbci.com Andrew Martin Embarrassed Rebol... ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/ http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ --
[REBOL] VID Menu dialect
pekr wrote: When we are building menu for e.g., we think in terms of menu, not this face here, this over there, etc. So: main "File" #"F" "Print-setup" #"P" "Something" #"o" sub "ble" I quite like this dialect approach: Menu [ File "File" #"F" [ New "New" #"N" Save-As "Save As" #"A" Exit "Exit" #"x" ] Edit "Edit" "#E" [ Cut "Cut" #"t" Copy "Copy" #"c" ] ] Then: Menu/Edit/Cut refers to the Cut menu item in the Edit menu in the File Menu. Andrew Martin I'll have Rebol #1, thanks! ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/ http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ --
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(3)
On 9/24/2000 at 1:15 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMHO I think it is ridiculous to think that "Open Source" projects can be cloned by each newbie-programmer. This is an important point. What many people who write code overlook is that the marketplace still considers software applications an investment (as opposed to a disposable commodity). They are not just buying the software product that is shipping today, but the support and upgrades that go with it. The reason so many products are going open source now is because people realize that the source really isn't worth that much. The world is full of source. The value is with the organization or community that distributes and supports the software. Source is a commodity; Products are an investment. If MS released the source for Excel, people would still rather buy the official distribution for $50 or $100 then pay less from an unknown source. This is one reason Sun's StarOffice isn't taking the corporate world by storm -- there isn't a lot of desktop support in place for the product, and that's where people spend the real bucks - training and customization. -Ted.
[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(5)
On 9/24/2000 at 4:06 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every computer will be both server and client without requiring a computer science degree to configure and protect. You can't do all this using the status quo, but it can all be done, and is in development right now. It wasn't so long ago that "entry-level" tasks people do every day with "ordinary" spreadsheet software would have required a team of programmers. Then, the dream was an OS that would run on computers from different manufacturers. As it ever was. Hopefully things will be much different by 2035, when the Windows time functions expire. -Ted.
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(2)
On 9/24/2000 at 10:19 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yet piracy of the "code" isn't really a problem Has it ever been a real "problem"? (Damages you could prove.) Or just a bogey-man? -Ted.
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(4)
At 07:08 a.m. 24/09/00 -0400, you wrote: This is one reason Sun's StarOffice isn't taking the corporate world by storm -- there isn't a lot of desktop support in place for the product, and that's where people spend the real bucks - training and customization. I tried it. It's kind of clunky and weird but intriguing. Some of the labels are still in a foreign language. First I thought it was German, but I think it's Norwegian. The default spell check language is Norwegian. It does strange things, such as substituting "/" if you type "--", and it's hard to find out why or how to change it. I think that if there were full attention to these details it would be very successful, as there is a lot to like about the product. It is surprisingly useful for web page design, for example, but the weird aspects made me leave it after a while. -- JULES SIEGEL Apdo 1764 Cancun Q. Roo 77501 http://www.cafecancun.com Fax1.530.706.8739 Tel 1.52.98 83.36.29
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(5)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/23/2000 at 4:14 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1)Self-employed curmudgeons like myself. 2)Programmers for large organizations, like government, municipalities. And then there's someone like me, a self-employed curmudgeon who contracts with larger organizations, who says "wow" or "is it" depending on whether it's for me or another organization. And then there are just plain cranky old goats like me, who will in a typical day/week be using HP-UX, Solaris, Linux, MacOS, and a growing list of "W" variations -- who is TOTALLY FED UP with having to write the same code more than once, whether its for day-pay, private consulting, volunteer work, personal enjoyment, self-education, or whatever. Which is why any tool that is not supported on every platform I routinely use (or may [have to] use in the future) is of little interest to me. (Even though circumstances may force me to be "flexible" on occasion ;-) -jn-
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(5)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote:
...
BOTTOM LINE: As has been pointed out in the recent "40 platforms"
thread, there's a real marketplace out there. While Carl and
company would be within their legal/moral/whatever rights to stop
supplying REBOL for w95/98/nt/2k (just to use a hypothetical and
totally unlikely example ;-), I'd consider that an impractical
decision if the goal is to get REBOL widely adopted. Similarly,
although I applaud/appreciate the legions of excellent developers
who contribute to the open source movement, and am a grateful
beneficiary of their labors, I question the practicality of
refusing to address the concerns of developers who wish to have
some other means of distribution than pure source code -- for a
variety of reasons.
I think I have to explain a little more what I meant.
I did not say RT should stop supplying Win.. Platforms with their
fantastic tools!!! It is important for RT and the REBOL-Comunity
that REBOL evolves to a widely used language.
What I said was much more general than it obviously seemed.
My reference to msxxx was only an analogy. Let me try to do better
at drawing the parallel:
Regardless of what I think ofRegardless of what I think of a
the Windows environment, there Closed-Source approach, there
are many people who prefer itare many people who prefer it
or who have constraints that or who have constraints that
force them to use it.force them to use it.
Any language that fails to Any language that fails to
address their desires/needs address their desires/needs
will limit its acceptance. will limit its acceptance.
Regardless of my personalRegardless of my personal
views on that environment, I views on that approach, I
believe the language designerbelieve the language designer
should consider the desires/ should consider the desires/
needs of the group above, or needs of the group above, or
risk limiting his language's risk limiting his language's
growth and acceptance. growth and acceptance.
As long as his support for As long as his support for
that environment doesn't that approach doesn't
FORCE ME to use it when IFORCE ME to use it when I
choose not to. choose not to.
Carl's support for MS operating systems doesn't keep me from
using any of several varieties of Unix/Linux (except Debian, but
that's another issue!), MacOS, etc.
If Carl chose to give us a way to compile, tokenize, convert-to-
byte-code, or whatever, as a way to deliver executable REBOL
scripts in a form that does not immediatly disclose the source
code (whatever the reaons!), that wouldn't keep anyone who wished
to do so from supplying source code.
What I wanted to say is
"Hey Guys look at your Software! Is it REALLY SO
special, sophisticated and valuable that it have to be
protected?"
A perfectly fair question for a discussion such as this. But
I don't think anyone else has to answer it to my satisfaction
before being allowed to protect it.
What I wanted to say to RT is
"Hey guys! Is it really so important to force all
developers to give out their source code that you
won't provide any alternatives?"
I hope this explaines a little bit more what I wanted to say.
And, of course, all of the above discussion ignores other quite
legitimate reasons for wanting some sort of pre-processed form
of code: performance (which you mentioned in an earlier post),
reduced run-time overhead (no need to parse/translate/compile,
potentially fewer moving parts in the distributed product,
potentially simpler set up, etc.), simpler/faster distribution
("object" is typically smaller than "source", making it faster
to download/copy/install, etc.)
and so on...
Thanks!
-jn-
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(5)
On 9/24/2000 at 6:50 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that if there were full attention to these details it would be very successful, as there is a lot to like about the product. It is surprisingly useful for web page design, for example, but the weird aspects made me leave it after a while. StarOffice's greatest strength and weakness is the tight integration between applications. On one hand, the applications can work together in surprizing and useful ways. On the other, it works against the idea of someone assembiling their own "best of breed" suite of applicatoins. But it would seem a good choice where people are trying hard to standardize their corporate desktops. To give the devil its due, I think the Win32 desktop is a marvelous example of integrating applications into a useful work environment. (Now, if only the underlying OS wasn't broken.) -Ted.
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(5)
On Sun, 24 Sep 2000, you wrote: At 07:08 a.m. 24/09/00 -0400, you wrote: This is one reason Sun's StarOffice isn't taking the corporate world by storm -- there isn't a lot of desktop support in place for the product, and that's where people spend the real bucks - training and customization. I tried it. It's kind of clunky and weird but intriguing. Some of the labels are still in a foreign language. First I thought it was German, but I think it's Norwegian. The default spell check language is Norwegian. It does strange things, such as substituting "/" if you type "--", and it's hard to find out why or how to change it. Hm.. it maybe because I'm German (and StarDivision was a German Vendor) but I've nto seen such behavior in last releases. Have you ever tried the 5.2 release? (A whole bunch of changes) I like the high grade of integration. Furthermore it has the best formula-editor I ever seen in a wordprocessor. Regards Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Re: Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(2)
Hello [EMAIL PROTECTED]! On 24-Set-00, you wrote: r I recently emailed rebol regarding support for R/View on qnx r rtp. They basically said probably, but they haven't decided They HAVE to port /View on RTP, why else did they partecipate to the Phoenix consortium? I'd like to have an intent version too, but while RTP is a reality (two days away!), the AmigaOE is still rather mysterious. (And I'm saying that having bought the Amiga SDK.) I should get the free CD, Gabriele. -- Gabriele Santilli [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Amigan - REBOL programmer Amiga Group Italia sez. L'Aquila -- http://www.amyresource.it/AGI/
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(6)
As long as his support for As long as his support for
that environment doesn't that approach doesn't
FORCE ME to use it when IFORCE ME to use it when I
choose not to. choose not to.
Right, thats my opinion too, but by using compile to hide the source we would
loose the ability to acces code at runtime of compiled code.
Coming from CommonLisp I think this would be very bad - we would
give away a really important feature!
Carl's support for MS operating systems doesn't keep me from
using any of several varieties of Unix/Linux (except Debian, but
that's another issue!), MacOS, etc.
I never said something against this fact.
I hope this explaines a little bit more what I wanted to say.
And, of course, all of the above discussion ignores other quite
legitimate reasons for wanting some sort of pre-processed form
of code: performance (which you mentioned in an earlier post),
reduced run-time overhead (no need to parse/translate/compile,
potentially fewer moving parts in the distributed product,
potentially simpler set up, etc.), simpler/faster distribution
("object" is typically smaller than "source", making it faster
to download/copy/install, etc.)
Yes that's the point!
_I_ would prefer using compilation (native, bytecode or whatever)
for making the code more efficient and smaller. But I do _not_ want to
loose runtime accessibility to the code.
Regards,
Jochen Schmidt
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(6)
Hi: I see that we have taken a thread more about strategy and marketing here, and I hope rebol team people are reading this. Interesting thing coming up here... I think. Koffice (KDE answer to Microsoft Office) is supposed to provide hooks to a number of languages, rather than a proprietory VBA as does MS-Office. Perhaps Carl and folks should consider looking into this and perhaps trying to make sure that Koffice provides such "hooks" for rebol. I could sure "dig it". It is reasonable to speculate that in the next year, in the area that I live in we will see a number of networks of small organizations running Windows on top of Linux through something like Win4Lin. With KOffice there would then be a cheaper alternative to Microsoft's expensive Office license. It then follows that a considerable amount of small-module programming would happen. I'm already putting together General Purpose modules for Ms-Access using VBA. I'd rather be doing that in rebol! :) -Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/24/2000 at 6:50 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that if there were full attention to these details it would be very successful, as there is a lot to like about the product. It is surprisingly useful for web page design, for example, but the weird aspects made me leave it after a while. StarOffice's greatest strength and weakness is the tight integration between applications. On one hand, the applications can work together in surprizing and useful ways. On the other, it works against the idea of someone assembiling their own "best of breed" suite of applicatoins. But it would seem a good choice where people are trying hard to standardize their corporate desktops. To give the devil its due, I think the Win32 desktop is a marvelous example of integrating applications into a useful work environment. (Now, if only the underlying OS wasn't broken.) -Ted.
[REBOL] REALLY DISCOVER THE POWER OF REBOL Re:(4)
Hello, I'm not much of a programmer, but I've been following Rebol since it was Lava, and I like the direction it (or RT, or Carl) is taking us. Currently I'm enjoying Elan's book very much (great writing style, Elan!), and even though I haven't yet found my a good project for Rebol, I did manage to whip up a CGI-driven Instant Messenger (sorry folks, it's dead now =). I agree with Elan, that Rebol and RT will take us to new directions, silly as it may sound, I had the chance to play around with a Casio e-105 running WinCE. It holds great promise for the future, even though it's very limited right now, these "intelligent" machines will become very important (excuse the naive tone), and I certainly think embedded is the future. Even though Rebol is not small enough for embedded now (it needs an OS), remember what embedded meant ten years ago? Wrist watches have more RAM nowadays! ;o) So where is Rebol taking us today? Probably glue highway, for now at least. But what about tomorrow? Peer-to-peer, wireless, embedded? Who knows? (If you do, send me an email! ;o) I guess what I'm trying to say is: Carl won't f*ck something up in four years that took him 20 years to develop. Don't forget the enthousiasm you have for Rebol, couldn't possibly compare for Carl's... =) Good luck to all, Rachid - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 23:03 Subject: [REBOL] REALLY DISCOVER THE POWER OF REBOL Re:(3) It is a strange beast, indeed. RT depends on developers to create applications to show that REBOL is a viable alternative. Meanwhile, developers of the open source persuasion see tractor application development as RT's responsibility, feeling REBOL itself could be maintained by the open source community. This argument seems to crop up in relation to all sorts of products nowadays. It seems "open source" as a marketing element is here to stay. Somehow products that are "open source" have become attractive to customers in the same way shampoos are attractive when they have not been tested on laboratory animals. Only time will tell whether or not open source software like operating systems and programming languages will become the standard vs. commercial, closed source options. I tend to think open source operating systems and programming languages WILL become the standard because of how we use them. Like electricity, gasoline, etc., they are becoming resources which need to be standardized. I see an inherent mistrust of closed source products amongst many developers because a closed source product can be taken away as quickly as it is given. It's kind of like not wanting to commit to a relationship with someone who hides things from you. This is how I perceive this behavior, at least. -Ryan Things like Javascript have splintered badly, but that's because they were not Open Source, and vendors implemented their own closed source in different ways. All that happens is that people like Elan, Gabrial, Lemir, and Joel don't waste time ruminating about how REBOL is implemented. Rather, they can contribute working code to the project. Carl would still control what goes into the kernal. But Carl doesn't want that to happen, and so it won't. Pity, because it might free up some of his developers to create real-life reference applications, and then maybe more people would put REBOL to work. -Ted.
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(7)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, thats my opinion too, but by using compile to hide the source we would loose the ability to acces code at runtime of compiled code. Coming from CommonLisp I think this would be very bad - we would give away a really important feature! I don't want to belabor this point unnecessrily (I probably have!), but I do NOT agree with casting this issue as a value judgement over an option which other languages provide the developer. If you (or your company) takes the policy position that you will never buy/license any software that comes without source, that's your right! (And if that means that you therefore can't use some products because they don't come with that option... well, you had the choice, so you get the consequences.) EQUALLY IMPORTANT IS THE DEVELOPERS RIGHT TO CHOOSE... If some developer creates a product for which he/she chooses not to distribute the source, that's his/her right! (And if that means that she/he loses some sales to people who require source as a precondition... well, she/he had the choice, so she/he gets the consequences.) EITHER WAY, that's what free markets are about. But to pre-empt EITHER the consumers' or developers' rights to choose how they will do business by creating a development environment (or a political environment or an economic one...) that gives all the rights of choice to one party (or by institutionalizing that party's choice so that it isn't even a choice any longer) is to prevent the market from working such things out on a case by case basis -- which I believe to be the fairest mechanism in the long run. Carl's support for MS operating systems doesn't keep me from using any of several varieties of Unix/Linux (except Debian, but that's another issue!), MacOS, etc. I never said something against this fact. You didn't, and I didn't mean to imply that you had. I was using the "choice of O/S" issue (which I think we all agree is a Good Thing) to try to illustrate why I think the "choice of distribution form" is also a Good Thing. _I_ would prefer using compilation (native, bytecode or whatever) for making the code more efficient and smaller. And I wholeheartedly support any steps which allow you that choice! But I do _not_ want to loose runtime accessibility to the code. And that, also, is your choice. You have a perfect right to make that a condition of doing business with you. However, I don't support making that a constraint on how everybody can conduct their affairs, when they are NOT doing business with you. That's THEIR choice! -jn-
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(8)
Well, let me throw in some thoughts. I think, that the debate started to look more abstract than I prefer. My comments are: 1) Rebol is IMHO designed with the runtime code accessibility in mind (inspired by Lisp), so I do not think, there's an easy way to convert that feature to its opposite. 2) I prefer the speed when compilation is considered, the source code protection is only a minor effect surely achievable by more direct means (discussed by Joel some time ago). 2a) When I look at the development in processor speeds (GHz looking as standard for year 2001 processors) and the neverstopping need to increase processor speeds, it is surely less preferable to write programs 100 or more times slower than C in some cases, so the speed is something any language including Rebol could use. 2b) Rebol with its mutable values used to store code radically differs even from Lisp, that uses immutable series for that AFAIK. That fact has immediate consequences - Self Modifying Code looks as standard - even some basic Rebol constructs are modifying, eg: 2ba) Use - modifies its (code) block argument (this causes even "unexpected" behaviour when recursive functions are called) and causes its code block argument very hard to compile when speed is the goal 2bb) Make object! - modifies its (code) block argument - see above 2bc) Bind - modifying, as opposed to Bind/copy, which behaves better 2bd) any mutables contained in the code aren't protected against change - no compilation advantage 2be) the code block can easily modify itself - a feature making compilation almost impractical Not trying to criticize, just to discuss the possibilities. What do you think? Ladislav - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 7:24 PM Subject: [REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(7) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, thats my opinion too, but by using compile to hide the source we would loose the ability to acces code at runtime of compiled code. Coming from CommonLisp I think this would be very bad - we would give away a really important feature! I don't want to belabor this point unnecessrily (I probably have!), but I do NOT agree with casting this issue as a value judgement over an option which other languages provide the developer. If you (or your company) takes the policy position that you will never buy/license any software that comes without source, that's your right! (And if that means that you therefore can't use some products because they don't come with that option... well, you had the choice, so you get the consequences.) EQUALLY IMPORTANT IS THE DEVELOPERS RIGHT TO CHOOSE... If some developer creates a product for which he/she chooses not to distribute the source, that's his/her right! (And if that means that she/he loses some sales to people who require source as a precondition... well, she/he had the choice, so she/he gets the consequences.) EITHER WAY, that's what free markets are about. But to pre-empt EITHER the consumers' or developers' rights to choose how they will do business by creating a development environment (or a political environment or an economic one...) that gives all the rights of choice to one party (or by institutionalizing that party's choice so that it isn't even a choice any longer) is to prevent the market from working such things out on a case by case basis -- which I believe to be the fairest mechanism in the long run. Carl's support for MS operating systems doesn't keep me from using any of several varieties of Unix/Linux (except Debian, but that's another issue!), MacOS, etc. I never said something against this fact. You didn't, and I didn't mean to imply that you had. I was using the "choice of O/S" issue (which I think we all agree is a Good Thing) to try to illustrate why I think the "choice of distribution form" is also a Good Thing. _I_ would prefer using compilation (native, bytecode or whatever) for making the code more efficient and smaller. And I wholeheartedly support any steps which allow you that choice! But I do _not_ want to loose runtime accessibility to the code. And that, also, is your choice. You have a perfect right to make that a condition of doing business with you. However, I don't support making that a constraint on how everybody can conduct their affairs, when they are NOT doing business with you. That's THEIR choice! -jn-
[REBOL] Compiler for Rebol ? Re:(6)
At 05:31 p.m. 24/09/00 +0200, you wrote: Have you ever tried the 5.2 release? (A whole bunch of changes) It's a 40 mb download (I think). the last one was arduous. This is Mexico. Then comes Cancun, which is at the end of the line, believe me. I keep meaning to get the CD, but other things come first -- like a new harddrive. we run a tight ship here at Siegel Children Third World Slave Labor Writing Industries SA de CV. -- JULES SIEGEL Apdo 1764 Cancun Q. Roo 77501 http://www.cafecancun.com Fax1.530.706.8739 Tel 1.52.98 83.36.29
[REBOL] Unsubcribe - but how?
Sorry for this, but: How do I unsubscribe from this list. I've tried all the usual things, and I don't even get a reply. Thanks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[REBOL] Unsubcribe - but how? Re:
How do I unsubscribe from this list? Just reply to this email, change the subject to just this: UNSUBSCRIBE and click "send". Big hint: Use copy and paste, so the spelling remains correct. OK? Then you'll be unsubscribed from the list. Or execute this Rebol program: [rebol [] send [EMAIL PROTECTED] "UNSUBSCRIBE"] Or click on this link in an advanced email client: [EMAIL PROTECTED]?subject=unsubscribe Andrew Martin Scribe, scribe, scribe, scribe, scribe, scribe... ICQ: 26227169 http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ --
[REBOL] Re: Unsubcribe - but how?
On 25-Sep-00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry for this, but: How do I unsubscribe from this list. I've tried all the usual things, and I don't even get a reply. This is the Welcome email I received. I assume unsubscribe still works as stated... ---8--- Welcome to the REBOL email list. Thanks for joining in the discussion. This email list is run by a REBOL script named SELMA: Simple Email List-Managing Applet. Here is some helpful information: Commands to REBOL SELMA are given on the subject line of your message. These commands are currently supported: help - get this information suggest - make a suggestion about the list selma-source - get the current source code to SELMA get msg N - send yourself message #N subscribe - add yourself to the list unsubscribe - remove yourself from the list No other commands are provided at this time. -SELMA
[REBOL] Unsubcribe - but how? Re:(2)
There can be the problem that you have moved your email account. Then you must go to that place where you started the whole thing off! Tomi Jaskari Mobile:+358 50 330 3784 http://www.iki.fi/tmjj Helsinki Business Polytechnic
[REBOL] XML parsing / XMLRPC
Hello everybody, I've uploaded a few scripts that adds some XMLRPC functionality to REBOL and an extended XML parsing function to my (brand new!) REBOL section at http://www.obscure.dk/rebol/ It's very much beta, and quite untested (and no server-side functionality yet), but anyways, here's a demo of what it currently can do: REBOL/Core 2.4.36.1.1 6-Sep-2000 Copyright 2000 REBOL Technologies. All rights reserved. ## do %xml-utils.r ## do %xml-rpc.r ## test-host: make xml-rpc/host! [ [host: http://betty.userland.com/RPC2 [] ## test-host/add-method 'examples.getStateName [state-no [integer!]] ## test-host/exec [ [state-no: random 40 [print ["The name of state no." state-no "is" examples.getStateName state-no] [] The name of state no. 15 is Iowa (I hope userland.com don't mind me testing against their demo server too much :-) It currently handles marshalling REBOL to/from XMLRPC for the following datatypes: integer! - i4 logic! - boolean string! - string decimal! - double date! - datetime.iso8601 binary! - base64 block! - array object! - struct (including nested arrays and structs) Best regards Thomas Jensen
[REBOL] Re: Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(5)
On 25-Sep-00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tell me. What killer app, what "must have" will any new OS bring that won't be ported by Gates and others within weeks as they did with browsers, e-mail, servers etc.? But with one HUGE difference. The new OS starts off with 0% of the market share, while the others, 100 %. But a new OS that can run cross-platforn apps, (Java, REBOL, any number of others in the future), won't be starting off with 0% market share, will it?
[REBOL] Bug! path! in objects don't behave the same as path! outside object
Bug! path! in objects don't behave the same as path! outside object. REBOL/View 0.10.34.3.1 23-Sep-2000 Copyright 2000 REBOL Technologies. All rights reserved. base: make object! [ [p: does [print "function 'p in 'base"] [] derived: make object! [ [p: first [base/p] [] p: first [base/p] == base/p p function 'p in 'base :p == base/p base/p function 'p in 'base derived/p == base/p The above is incorrect, I believe. The result of the above should be the result of base/p: function 'p in 'base _not_ the path: base/p Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/ http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ --
[REBOL] a GC bug of the second kind Re:
Jeff already signaled, that List! and Hash! datatypes are being fixed. I succeeded to track down the behaviour to the following: h: make hash! 0 insert h copy "0123456789" h recycle insert h copy "0123456789" CRASH! just in case you didn't know... It does the same in this Rebol version: REBOL/View 0.10.34.3.1 23-Sep-2000 Copyright 2000 REBOL Technologies. All rights reserved. REBOL caused an invalid page fault in module MSVCRT.DLL at 015f:78010cc8. Registers: EAX=00ff CS=015f EIP=78010cc8 EFLGS=00010206 EBX=006e03c4 SS=0167 ESP=0069fc00 EBP=0069fc2c ECX=0003 DS=0167 ESI=bad1bad1 FS=72cf EDX=0805 ES=0167 EDI=bad1bad1 GS= Bytes at CS:EIP: 88 07 47 49 0f 84 57 03 ff ff eb f4 8b 44 24 04 Stack dump: 0072da9c 0043058c bad1bad1 0808 006b20e4 0072da9c 004349c7 006e29d0 00c00270 0069fc70 0069fc70 0043055a 0072da9c 006b20e4 00743088 Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/ http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ --
[REBOL] Over 40 Platforms make for good press, but.... Re:(6)
On 9/24/2000 at 11:15 AM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tell me. What killer app, what "must have" will any new OS bring that won't be ported by Gates and others within weeks as they did with browsers, e-mail, servers etc.? But with one HUGE difference. The new OS starts off with 0% of the market share, while the others, 100 %. How about something that actually did .NET out of the box? Gates wishes he could port the PalmOS, but can't because they are mired in the Windows Everywhere strategy. Likewise, IBM (and Apple) couldn't or wouldn't accept the open architecture model, and so their fortunes fell (or fell short). Microsoft will eventually fail because the Internet makes the OS a commodity, and one day Windows won't matter anymore. -Ted.
[REBOL] ENOUGH already
Puh-lease! I subscribed to this list to learn REBOL from those of you who are so well-versed in it and have explored very advanced topics with it. But more and more, I have to wade through 20+ postings regarding opinions on marketing, open-source, comparison of platforms (each with lots of 'proof' to back it up), etc, to find one posting with some programming information. Notwithstanding that there are good points being made, there is also way too much unresolvable opposing philosophies; sort of like talking religion or politics - and you know where that gets you. I'm not saying limit it strictly to coding questions and examples, because I think discussions on collaborative efforts to build a few killer apps is fruitful, but maybe there should be another list for all the discussions about what RT 'should' do. I am simply happy to have such a language which is so new and different and powerful. I mean no offense, but how many of us who are so smart about what RT needs to do to be successful could have done what they've done? It's human nature to look at what exists and see 'what's missing' or how things should be, but that angle becomes fruitless when it degenerates into long historical justifications. I realize this has been somewhat of a rant, and let me reiterate that I learned a lot from the list in its earlier days, but it has become not very useful in the past few weeks. Can we get back to being more on-topic? Respectfully (and I mean that), Grant __ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/
[REBOL] any leads on openning any site with rebol for a small http page parser?
Is there a web navigator written in rebol? I would liek to check it's code and see if it can open any web page, so far my scripts can't seem to handle all hmtl web page I try to have it parse. Akhar
[REBOL] How to access folders other than inbox in mail
How does one read other folders besides "inbox" using mail? TIA __ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/
[REBOL] ENOUGH already Re:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Puh-lease! I subscribed to this list to learn REBOL from those of you who are so well-versed in it and have explored very advanced topics with it. But more and more, I have to wade through 20+ postings regarding opinions on marketing, open-source, comparison of platforms (each with lots of 'proof' to back it up), etc, to find one posting with some programming information. I don't defend comparison of platforms, but with bad marketing, you can kill the product sooner than later. I offered RT to set-up separate ml for those interesting to discuss marketing etc. issues, but guess if I got reply to my email? ;-/ Notwithstanding that there are good points being made, there is also way too much unresolvable opposing philosophies; sort of like talking religion or politics - and you know where that gets you. I'm not saying limit it strictly to coding questions and examples, because I think discussions on collaborative efforts to build a few killer apps is fruitful, but maybe there should be another list for all the discussions about what RT 'should' do. I am simply happy to have such a language which is so new and different and powerful. I mean no offense, but how many of us who are so smart about what RT needs to do to be successful could have done what they've done? If you say something like that, then you always very cleverly block ppl from having right to their own opinion ... It's human nature to look at what exists and see 'what's missing' or how things should be, but that angle becomes fruitless when it degenerates into long historical justifications. I realize this has been somewhat of a rant, and let me reiterate that I learned a lot from the list in its earlier days, but it has become not very useful in the past few weeks. Can we get back to being more on-topic? Maybe we would like to be, but as for me - I can't. What do you use/want to use REBOL for? Some of us needs to know at least something about directions, and that mean even marketing. You know what? - do you think the discussion would be occuring if RT would answer at least basic questions? I just wonder how many ppl actually ordered /Command not even remotely knowing, what does the licence agreeement look like -pekr- Respectfully (and I mean that), Grant __ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/
[REBOL] ENOUGH already Re:
I strongly agree. Greg Grant wrote, I realize this has been somewhat of a rant, and let me reiterate that I learned a lot from the list in its earlier days, but it has become not very useful in the past few weeks. Can we get back to being more on-topic? Respectfully (and I mean that), Grant
[REBOL] Bug! path! in objects don't behave the same as path! outside object Re:
Hi Andrew, you wrote: Bug! path! in objects don't behave the same as path! outside object. Which parallel case involving paths are you thinking of? Here is an example case that does not involve objects at all and behaves exactly the case you attribute to objects: base: func [/p] [ either p [print "'p in 'base."] [print "'base"] ] base/p 'p in 'base. derived: make function! [/p] [ either p [p: first [base/p]] [first [base] ] ] derived == base derived/p == base/p When you create the object (or in my example the function) the expression first [base/p] is evaluated. It evaluates to the path base/p type? first [base/p] == path! base/p is a value of type path! This value, base/p, is referenced by p in your make object! example. If you want REBOL to instead assign p as a reference to the value that the path evaluates to, you must tell REBOL that: first reduce [base/p] 'p in 'base. i.e. derived: make object! [ p: first reduce [base/p] ] REBOL/View 0.10.34.3.1 23-Sep-2000 Copyright 2000 REBOL Technologies. All rights reserved. base: make object! [ [p: does [print "function 'p in 'base"] [] derived: make object! [ [p: first [base/p] [] p: first [base/p] == base/p p function 'p in 'base :p == base/p base/p function 'p in 'base derived/p == base/p The above is incorrect, I believe. The result of the above should be the result of base/p: function 'p in 'base _not_ the path: base/p Andrew Martin ICQ: 26227169 http://members.nbci.com/AndrewMartin/ http://members.xoom.com/AndrewMartin/ -- ;- Elan [ : - ) ] author of REBOL: THE OFFICIAL GUIDE REBOL Press: The Official Source for REBOL Books http://www.REBOLpress.com visit me at http://www.TechScribe.com
[REBOL] Still having problems with panel firewall connection ...
Hi, just would like to ask, if firewall panel connection works for you with new /View version? Thanks, -pekr-
[REBOL] ENOUGH already Re:
You read my mind! SNR is definitely swinging into the negative numbers. All things being equal I would like to take this opportunity to express my humble gratitude to those that have answered my questions (as well as those of others) so expeditiously and with such charity. On the flip side... Although some of you are perhaps very clever and capable individuals I think you are pissing in the wind. Such pursuits have their own cathartic merits, but might I mention the rest of us are getting little wet about now. And no doubt we all have heard the familiar chant that "If wishes were horses beggars would ride". And perhaps if Jules Verne were an engineer rather than a visionary writer he would have hung himself out of frustration, attempting to cobble his dreams in the wrong century. Any fool can turn a house into a pile of stones but its far rarer to find a man who can turn a pile of stones into a house. If Carl and company can build a house then the least we can do is mix the mortar without too much water and sand. Need I say more? I remain respectfully yours, [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 10:37 PM Subject: [REBOL] ENOUGH already Puh-lease! I subscribed to this list to learn REBOL from those of you who are so well-versed in it and have explored very advanced topics with it. But more and more, I have to wade through 20+ postings regarding opinions on marketing, open-source, comparison of platforms (each with lots of 'proof' to back it up), etc, to find one posting with some programming information. Notwithstanding that there are good points being made, there is also way too much unresolvable opposing philosophies; sort of like talking religion or politics - and you know where that gets you. I'm not saying limit it strictly to coding questions and examples, because I think discussions on collaborative efforts to build a few killer apps is fruitful, but maybe there should be another list for all the discussions about what RT 'should' do. I am simply happy to have such a language which is so new and different and powerful. I mean no offense, but how many of us who are so smart about what RT needs to do to be successful could have done what they've done? It's human nature to look at what exists and see 'what's missing' or how things should be, but that angle becomes fruitless when it degenerates into long historical justifications. I realize this has been somewhat of a rant, and let me reiterate that I learned a lot from the list in its earlier days, but it has become not very useful in the past few weeks. Can we get back to being more on-topic? Respectfully (and I mean that), Grant __ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/
