Re: Strange Request
At 09:32 13/03/2001, you wrote: At 09:27 13/03/01 +, you wrote: At 09:08 13/03/2001, you wrote: If all else fails I'll be raiding Matts script archive ;) Walking round PC World yesterday (nice to look at things then buy them 50 cheaper online :) ) and spotted a Perl Book written by Matt Wright, with a CD including many scripts from his site. What made even more amused was that there was a whacking great recommendation to buy it, blazoned across the top, from the one and only Randal Schwartz. Hm I bought this book a couple of years ago with the plan to write a damning criticism of it. Never had the time tho'. Maybe someday... Randal says that his comments were quoted out of context and that it was the last time he accepted payment for commenting on a book. Dave... If anyone is interested the web site for the book is at: http://www.cgi-perl.com/ Randal's comment is: This book should definitely be on your shelf for ready-to-run programs and inspiration for your own custom programs. According to the website Randal Schwartz is co-author of 'Programming in Perl', has anyone seen this book, is it any good? Just been wandering around the website and (as an owner of the book) was able to access the 'private' areas. There's a message board for the discussion of the scripts in the book and it's based on Matt's wwwboard script. Current messages have dates like 3/12/101 and when you read the message the full date is March 12, 19101 at 17:58:28! Good advert for the book - lucky you only get to see it once you've read the book! Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: Strange Request
* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Good advert for the book - lucky you only get to see it once you've read the book! not read, bought! theres the big catch still we've done this argument several times and at the end of the day people want to be able to just grab a piece of ``perl cgi software'' and run it on their site. until there is something better available with as much visibility, matt still gets a tiny tiny tiny bit of credit thats all imho, but then again i'm in far too good a mood today -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Strange Request
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 09:52:12AM +, Dave Cross wrote: Just been wandering around the website and (as an owner of the book) was able to access the 'private' areas. Well if you have a look at the vulnerabilitys database on securityfocus.com then you too can be an admin of the message board and tidy up his code for him ;) Thanks to everyone who sent me code off list. I shall protect the names of the not quite innocent. Dean -- Profanity is the one language all programmers understand --- Anon
Re: DJ jabbers on the O'Reilly Network
From: "Jon Eyre" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2001 10:14 On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Michael Stevens wrote: On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 10:18:53PM +, Dave Cross wrote: You _do_ realise that I've now put the trademark notice on all of the london.pm web pages :) Anyone know if we could ACTUALLY trademark this? --- To be registrable a trade mark must be: and it must be paid for! http://www.patent.gov.uk/tm/howtoapply/index.htm It costs 200 (pounds sterling) to apply to register a trade mark in one class of goods/services, and 50 (pounds sterling) for each additional class. Please remember that this fee is not refundable if the mark turns out not to be registrable for any reason - it covers the cost of examination of an application as well as other administrative costs. Please make cheques payable to "The Patent Office". /Robert
RE: Strange Request
There's a marketing battle that needs to be fought first. We need, somehow, to ensure that newbie CGI programmers read criticisms of Matt's scripts _before_ they find Matt's Script Archive. And I don't know how you're going to undo five years of misinformation and achieve that. Maybe we need to sponsor Matt Wright? The inverse of the Damian sponsorship, we would cover whatever revenue he gets from his scripts in return for him shutting all the sites down for a year, and redirecting everyone somewhere else. What do you reckon? Sponsor Matt to not be involved with Perl for a year?
Re: DJ jabbers on the O'Reilly Network
* Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:37:12AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: * Michael Stevens ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Mar 12, 2001 at 10:18:53PM +, Dave Cross wrote: You _do_ realise that I've now put the trademark notice on all of the london.pm web pages :) Anyone know if we could ACTUALLY trademark this? trademarking the trademarking of a perl mongers website? Trademarking beer in connection with perl, silly. oh sorry, that makes perfect sense! god, i'm glad i'm away from you lot for a bit longer this month, so i can regain some sanity. -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Strange Request
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 09:08:52AM -, Miss Barbell wrote: Walking round PC World yesterday (nice to look at things then buy them 50 cheaper online :) ) and spotted a Perl Book written by Matt Wright, with a CD including many scripts from his site. What made even more amused was that there was a whacking great recommendation to buy it, blazoned across the top, from the one and only Randal Schwartz. Hm Yeees. I don't think you're meant to mention that in polite society :-) -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ This is a signature. There are many like it but this one is mine. ** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important ** PGP signature
Re: Strange Request
* at 13/03 10:43 - Jonathan Peterson said: There's a marketing battle that needs to be fought first. We need, somehow, to ensure that newbie CGI programmers read criticisms of Matt's scripts _before_ they find Matt's Script Archive. And I don't know how you're going to undo five years of misinformation and achieve that. Maybe we need to sponsor Matt Wright? The inverse of the Damian sponsorship, we would cover whatever revenue he gets from his scripts in return for him shutting all the sites down for a year, and redirecting everyone somewhere else. What do you reckon? Sponsor Matt to not be involved with Perl for a year? couldn't we just raise enough cash to send him on a decent perl training course? that way he might re-write his stuff. although the sheer twistedness of the above does appeal :) struan
Re: Strange Request
* at 13/03 10:56 + Michael Stevens said: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 10:58:36AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: how to solve this, will there is an easy way that would deal with the problem at source - perl certification *duck* having said in another email how there were no resources to deal with this problem, there is a near miss in the perl cookbook, however to tackle the problem directly, maybe ORA need to commission a Perl CGI Cookbook. all the good classic web problems, with simple ready to run examples. forums, guestbooks, counters, voting, etc. Maybe we should join the many people who've had a go at this... setup a CVS repository on penderel, get on with it. was that the sound of someone volunteering? struan
Re: Freebies
At 12:15 13/03/2001, you wrote: Dave Cross, Lord and Master of London.pm, thus wrote: Postman just bought a review copy of Lincoln Stein's "Network Programming with Perl". This is good news as it seems that Addison Wesley have now seen that giving freebie copies to Perl Monger groups is a Good Thing. I'll be giving it away at the next meeting, which is on Thursday 5th April. IIRC we'd volunteered mstevens to try and book us the downstairs bar in the Cittie of Yorke. ... which I hope to be able to attend. A weekend in London seems like a good idea, to make up the mind whether to break the promise to settle in Vienna for good. We look forward to seeing you. By the way, Dave, did Addison Wesley contact you about this or vice versa? I'm wondering if O'Reilly and others are sending books to Perl monger groups anyway and they just vanish unmentioned with the maintainer of Vienna.pm... I got an email via the Perl Monger Group Leaders mailing list. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
RE: Strange Request
That's Selena Sol. He's almost as bad as Matt. I thought Selena was female. Oh well.
Re: Freebies
At 11:28 13/03/2001, you wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 11:27:08AM +, Dave Cross wrote: At 12:15 13/03/2001, you wrote: By the way, Dave, did Addison Wesley contact you about this or vice versa? I'm wondering if O'Reilly and others are sending books to Perl monger groups anyway and they just vanish unmentioned with the maintainer of Vienna.pm... I got an email via the Perl Monger Group Leaders mailing list. Odd. I didn't get anything from them. sulk Yep. I just checked and that's definitely where it came from. I've forwarded you a copy. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: Strange Request
Jonathan Peterson wrote: Maybe we need to sponsor Matt Wright? The inverse of the Damian sponsorship, we would cover whatever revenue he gets from his scripts in return for him shutting all the sites down for a year, and redirecting everyone somewhere else. What do you reckon? Sponsor Matt to not be involved with Perl for a year? I thought Matt gives away the scripts for free, so what revenue is involved probably comes from banner ads. And from what I heard, Matt wrote those scripts several years ago and isn't doing much on them these days, so paying him to "not be involved with Perl" probably won't change what he's doing. Or has he produced something new recently? (Too lazy to check.) For all I know, he might even be a decent Perl programmer now, but too lazy or apathetic to go and update all of his scripts. Or he might be a Java programmer now and say "here are some scripts I wrote some time ago; you're free to use them on an as-is basis but I'm not doing any maintenance on them as I've moved on". Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Freebies
At 12:15 13/03/2001, you wrote: On Tue 13 Mar, Dave Cross wrote: Postman just bought a review copy of Lincoln Stein's "Network Programming with Perl". This is good news as it seems that Addison Wesley have now seen that giving freebie copies to Perl Monger groups is a Good Thing. Since you only get one copy of each of these books, would it be a good idea to do what the publishers presumably want you to do, ie review them on the list ... ? Not a bad idea. Unfortunately, it's currently hovering at about item number 300 on my "Things to do (urgent)" list :( Wiley might even be foolish enough to send you a copy of *that* book to review ... Not clear which particular book you mean. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: Freebies
On Tue 13 Mar, Dave Cross wrote:
Not clear which particular book you mean.
The Cgi/Perl Cookbook by Craig Pratchett and Matthew Wright. John Wiley
Son. One of the current "reviews" on Amazon.com says:
This is obviously a book that a lot of time and care went into, on the part
of both authors. The CGI/Perl Cookbook has all of the best "goodies" from
the excellent Matt's Script Archive website on its CD-ROM, and a chapter on
each of the scripts carefully walks you through every line, explaining (in
refreshingly non-technogeek language!) the programming theory behind each
element and how the total script works. I found this very useful when I
began writing my own Perl scripts.
Matt's easy-to-modify CGI scripts are also great for people who don't care
*why* it works, they just want it to work. With the excellent documentation
Craig and Matt supply, these are as close to foolproof as CGI scripting
("Aaagh! 500 Server Error!!") gets, and all 20 scripts covered in the book
are the basic, useful kind that anyone handling websites will want to use
sooner or later (guestbook, form mail, feedback, and a really well-designed
web store.)
Excellent value; this is the kind of book you'll keep and use for years,
whether it's your stepping-stone to writing your own scripts or whether you
never want to get more in-depth than just typing in the path to your Perl
executable.
Was this review helpful to you?
13 out of 14 people replied "yes".
Roger
--
Roger Horne
11 New Square, Lincoln's Inn, London WC2A 3QB
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.hrothgar.co.uk/
Re: Strange Request
No, but it's run by Matt. That's a list of CGI scripts written by loads of people - there are even some old embarrassments of mine in there :-/ You know we are all scrambling to find it now ;)
Re: Freebies
At 13:02 13/03/2001, you wrote:
On Tue 13 Mar, Dave Cross wrote:
Not clear which particular book you mean.
The Cgi/Perl Cookbook by Craig Pratchett and Matthew Wright. John Wiley
Son. One of the current "reviews" on Amazon.com says:
This is obviously a book that a lot of time and care went into, on the part
of both authors. The CGI/Perl Cookbook has all of the best "goodies" from
the excellent Matt's Script Archive website on its CD-ROM, and a chapter on
each of the scripts carefully walks you through every line, explaining (in
refreshingly non-technogeek language!) the programming theory behind each
element and how the total script works. I found this very useful when I
began writing my own Perl scripts.
Matt's easy-to-modify CGI scripts are also great for people who don't care
*why* it works, they just want it to work. With the excellent documentation
Craig and Matt supply, these are as close to foolproof as CGI scripting
("Aaagh! 500 Server Error!!") gets, and all 20 scripts covered in the book
are the basic, useful kind that anyone handling websites will want to use
sooner or later (guestbook, form mail, feedback, and a really well-designed
web store.)
Excellent value; this is the kind of book you'll keep and use for years,
whether it's your stepping-stone to writing your own scripts or whether you
never want to get more in-depth than just typing in the path to your Perl
executable.
Was this review helpful to you?
13 out of 14 people replied "yes".
This gives an idea of the kind of audience you're aiming at with any
pudative "Anti-Matt" project.
Dave...
--
http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: Strange Request
Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this is a good idea and would be happy to get involved. What I'd like to see is a series of "drop in" replacements for Matt's scripts. There are counts 15 scripts on Matt's site. How long would it take us to rewrite them all? I've done his "random text CGI" thingy as a mod_perl/TT drop-in. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy -
Re: Strange Request
- Original Message - From: "Dave Hodgkinson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2001 12:49 Subject: Re: Strange Request Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this is a good idea and would be happy to get involved. What I'd like to see is a series of "drop in" replacements for Matt's scripts. There are counts 15 scripts on Matt's site. How long would it take us to rewrite them all? I've done his "random text CGI" thingy as a mod_perl/TT drop-in. I haven't looked at Matts scripts, but I get the feeling that they are aimed at beginners who have a fairly standard perl/apache installation[1]. I'm sure your solution will be much better, but I don't think it would be a replacement for Matt's if the users can't run it... /Robert [1]please ignore me if this isn't the case :)
Re: Strange Request
"Robert Shiels" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - Original Message - From: "Dave Hodgkinson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2001 12:49 Subject: Re: Strange Request Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this is a good idea and would be happy to get involved. What I'd like to see is a series of "drop in" replacements for Matt's scripts. There are counts 15 scripts on Matt's site. How long would it take us to rewrite them all? I've done his "random text CGI" thingy as a mod_perl/TT drop-in. I haven't looked at Matts scripts, but I get the feeling that they are aimed at beginners who have a fairly standard perl/apache installation[1]. I'm sure your solution will be much better, but I don't think it would be a replacement for Matt's if the users can't run it... /Robert [1]please ignore me if this isn't the case :) I'd argue that recent distros come with mod_perl out of the box and that should be used in such situations by default. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy -
Re: Damian's Diary
Dave Cross wrote: Damian's hectic world tour has now finished and he's had time to update his online diary. He says a lot of nice things about us here http://www.yetanother.org/damian/diary_February_2001.html#day_31. Not least of which, perhaps, is The presence of Piers Cawley, Dave Cross, Greg McCarroll, Léon Brocard, and Tony Bowden also meant that at that one gathering I was able to spend time with the contributers of over half my YAS grant. It was very humbling to think that this community of clever and competent people had shown such faith in me. Not some faceless American corporation, but London.pmers (with values of "London" including Belfast and wherever Piers lives). Cheers, Philip
Re: Freebies
* Dave Cross ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: *why* it works, they just want it to work. With the excellent documentation whether it's your stepping-stone to writing your own scripts or whether you never want to get more in-depth than just typing in the path to your Perl executable. 13 out of 14 people replied "yes". This gives an idea of the kind of audience you're aiming at with any pudative "Anti-Matt" project. ok, they are not like us, but they are not wrong either, they just want something that works and is well documented. how you appeal to them is not the cleverness of the code, but with all of the attributes that ``commercial'' software competes on. -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Strange Request
* Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: - Original Message - From: "Dave Hodgkinson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2001 12:49 Subject: Re: Strange Request Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this is a good idea and would be happy to get involved. What I'd like to see is a series of "drop in" replacements for Matt's scripts. There are counts 15 scripts on Matt's site. How long would it take us to rewrite them all? I've done his "random text CGI" thingy as a mod_perl/TT drop-in. I haven't looked at Matts scripts, but I get the feeling that they are aimed at beginners who have a fairly standard perl/apache installation[1]. I'm sure your solution will be much better, but I don't think it would be a replacement for Matt's if the users can't run it... if this project ever did get moving, you'd want to measure each script against categories such as .. Runs on Win32 Runs on Linux Runs on Solaris Runs on any web server or Runs only on apache Requires the following modules blah blah and here we get back to the ROPE project as discussed before, where we could do a standard distribution of Apache/Mod Perl/Perl/Perl modules, with TT, XML::*, etc.,etc. already there -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Strange Request
and here we get back to the ROPE project as discussed before, where we
could do a standard distribution of Apache/Mod Perl/Perl/Perl modules,
with TT, XML::*, etc.,etc. already there
Might not be a bad idea doing each of these in each of the technologies
anyhow. It might prove a good way of showing how each of these work.
The biggest problem I have with using these 'branches' of perl is knowing
where to start. If we had a collection of standard scripts that was
re-written each time in TT, XML::* or whatever, then I (or other clueless
monkeys like me) could work from what they know how to start, where to go,
etc, etc.
Later.
Mark.
--
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
Name = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer' ,
Firm = 'Profero Ltd',Web = 'http://www.profero.com/' ,
Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]', Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960' )
Re: Strange Request
At 13:05 13/03/2001, you wrote: "Robert Shiels" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: - Original Message - From: "Dave Hodgkinson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2001 12:49 Subject: Re: Strange Request Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this is a good idea and would be happy to get involved. What I'd like to see is a series of "drop in" replacements for Matt's scripts. There are counts 15 scripts on Matt's site. How long would it take us to rewrite them all? I've done his "random text CGI" thingy as a mod_perl/TT drop-in. I haven't looked at Matts scripts, but I get the feeling that they are aimed at beginners who have a fairly standard perl/apache installation[1]. I'm sure your solution will be much better, but I don't think it would be a replacement for Matt's if the users can't run it... /Robert [1]please ignore me if this isn't the case :) I'd argue that recent distros come with mod_perl out of the box and that should be used in such situations by default. I'd argue that you're _massively_ overestimating our audience there. Most the Matt's users are people who have accounts with web hosting companies who only allow FTP access. mod_perl usually _isn't_ installed and installing CPAN modules is frowned on by the sysadmins and beyond the ability of most users. This may make the project a good deal less enjoyable, but I still think it's very worth-while. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: Strange Request
At 15:10 13/03/2001, you wrote: * Robert Shiels ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: - Original Message - From: "Dave Hodgkinson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2001 12:49 Subject: Re: Strange Request Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think this is a good idea and would be happy to get involved. What I'd like to see is a series of "drop in" replacements for Matt's scripts. There are counts 15 scripts on Matt's site. How long would it take us to rewrite them all? I've done his "random text CGI" thingy as a mod_perl/TT drop-in. I haven't looked at Matts scripts, but I get the feeling that they are aimed at beginners who have a fairly standard perl/apache installation[1]. I'm sure your solution will be much better, but I don't think it would be a replacement for Matt's if the users can't run it... if this project ever did get moving, you'd want to measure each script against categories such as .. Runs on Win32 Runs on Linux Runs on Solaris Runs on any web server or Runs only on apache Requires the following modules blah blah My opinion is that the only way this project could work is if the scripts worked on _any_ web server on _any_ platform with _no_ extra modules. Matt Wright can achieve that and we're all much cleverer than he is, so we should be able to do it too. and here we get back to the ROPE project as discussed before, where we could do a standard distribution of Apache/Mod Perl/Perl/Perl modules, with TT, XML::*, etc.,etc. already there An interesting project, but IMHO it's a completely different one. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: Strange Request
At 14:33 13/03/2001, you wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:34:50PM +, Dave Cross wrote: I haven't looked at Matts scripts, but I get the feeling that they are aimed at beginners who have a fairly standard perl/apache installation[1]. I'm sure your solution will be much better, but I don't think it would be a replacement for Matt's if the users can't run it... I agree completely. I'd go as far as to suggest that these replacement scripts should only use standard modules as well. The second that it becomes just a bit harder to use our scripts than it is to use Matt's we've lost most of our potential audience. Any well written script we write will use CGI.pm. Unless we ship CGI.pm with the scripts, the fact that there are many many broken perl installs out there will mean such a script will be harder to use than matt wright's code. You need to define a standard and stick to it. I suggest we write to Perl 5.004_04 as it was a) pretty stable and b) the first to include CGI.pm. We simply can't compete with Matt on backwards compatibility as his scripts all run on 4.036! Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: Strange Request
Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'd argue that you're _massively_ overestimating our audience there. Most the Matt's users are people who have accounts with web hosting companies who only allow FTP access. mod_perl usually _isn't_ installed and installing CPAN modules is frowned on by the sysadmins and beyond the ability of most users. Much better argument. What about taint-safety? This may make the project a good deal less enjoyable, but I still think it's very worth-while. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy -
Re: Strange Request
At 13:50 13/03/2001, you wrote: Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'd argue that you're _massively_ overestimating our audience there. Most the Matt's users are people who have accounts with web hosting companies who only allow FTP access. mod_perl usually _isn't_ installed and installing CPAN modules is frowned on by the sysadmins and beyond the ability of most users. Much better argument. What about taint-safety? All of our scripts must have "-T" and will do whatever is necessary to clean up external data. I see this as one of our big selling points - "our scripts don't allow users to delete all your files". Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
RE: Strange Request
do you exclude this script from the archive on the basis that it uses TT? this question defines the archive of scripts a little. is the collection of scripts specifically aimed at the lowest commond denominator and tackling the MW problem directly, or is that just its core mission, and other scripts are welcome. Surely there's nothing stopping you organising the archive in terms dependencies on other modules. Sort of - this will work on anything, but if your system allows scripts to use TT, why not use *this*? -- matt jones
Re: Strange Request
From: "Dave Cross" [EMAIL PROTECTED] You need to define a standard and stick to it. I suggest we write to Perl 5.004_04 as it was a) pretty stable and b) the first to include CGI.pm. Agreed. I just installed one of his scripts on my laptop, Win98, Apache 1.3.9, ActiveState's Perl5.6. There were comments in the code to make it run OK on Win32 and I had it working in no time. /Robert
Re: Strange Request
How about a hackfest one afternoon? A dozen people in a room with machines/laptops, pair programming... -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy -
Re: Strange Request
* Dave Hodgkinson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: How about a hackfest one afternoon? A dozen people in a room with machines/laptops, pair programming... have you ever tried herding cats? -- Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Re: Matt's Scripts
Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK, here's a list of Matt's scripts. If you'd like to have a go at rewriting one or two under the rules we've discussed (no external modules, -T, use strict, -w, etc), put you name next to it on this list. Random Image Displayer daveh Random Link Generator daveh Random Textdaveh -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy -
Re: Strange Request
### warning - creature feep ### On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Aaron Trevena wrote: this question defines the archive of scripts a little. is the collection of scripts specifically aimed at the lowest commond denominator and tackling the MW problem directly, or is that just its core mission, and other scripts are welcome. I don't think we actually need to lower to teh lowest common denominator - by applying the ROPE idea it should be possible to provide some easy bundles with their own namespace that the user can just unzip and ftp to their own local_modules/rope. If you provide scripts that work with perl5.x base but also provide scripts that use rope::lite, or rope::intermediate bundles the user will still be interested in using the bundle and we can encourage them to use modules and set them on the path to rightesusness. I think something like this would be the ultimate test of the ROPE concept. Given that there will be idiot proof scripts replacing msa ones, these will be limited greatly by not using modules, assuming a simple web based layout you can hive nice icons saying that Script N is **ready to run**, **requires rope::lite**, **requires rope::intermediate**, **requires quite a lot**, **requires apache**, **requires a little know how**, etc. A. -- A HREF = "http://termisoc.org/~betty" Betty @ termisoc.org /A "As a youngster Fred fought sea battles on the village pond using a complex system of signals he devised that was later adopted by the Royal Navy. " (this email has nothing to do with any organisation except me)
Re: Strange Request
Ok, this is obviously a good idea, some comment / ideas: 1) Create nms server (Not Matt Scripts). - setup mailing list(s). - I'm happy to host in a couple of weeks 2) Review and work out a 'core' module which can be part of the distrobution and impliment CGI.pm equiv stuff for ALL modules. - referer checker - CGI parser - Security stuff ? - Other.. ? - Maybe there should be a user 'sys_conf' file where all the user configurations go, making it easier than Matt's having to edit each file. 3) Create a 'standard' - methods, documentation etc. 4) Put someone in charge of each script: responsible for: - Review of current code - Creating a doc with all features - current (rand_image - which could be added. (rand_image support image size!s) - Sending this to the mailing list - Following up all comments. - Re-coding (either with others or not). - Test procedure for platforms / configurations. 5) Workout how we will catagroies these pieces of code, keywords, requirements, tests done etc.. 5) Create web site with: - Easy to use 'standard' aka Matt esk section - Other modules which need more installs (e.g. TT based) - Complex modules (require configuration / mod_perl) 6) Repeat for other non-Matt code, e.g. forums / BBS's Does anyone know if CPAN's pause system available, could we impliment it for this project ? - or would a new system be better ? Anyway, as I said I'll give it a go setting something up in a couple of weeks if someone hasn't got there first. Cheers Leo
Re: Matt's Scripts
Textclock Mark
Countdown Mark
Later.
Mark.
--
print "\n",map{my$a="\n"if(length$_6);' 'x(36-length($_)/2)."$_\n$a"} (
Name = 'Mark Fowler',Title = 'Technology Developer' ,
Firm = 'Profero Ltd',Web = 'http://www.profero.com/' ,
Email = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]', Phone = '+44 (0) 20 7700 9960' )
Re: Matt's Scripts
At 15:18 13/03/2001, you wrote: OK, here's a list of Matt's scripts. If you'd like to have a go at rewriting one or two under the rules we've discussed (no external modules, -T, use strict, -w, etc), put you name next to it on this list. Guestbook davorg WWWboard davorg -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
RE: Matt's Scripts
OK, here's a list of Matt's scripts. If you'd like to have a go at rewriting one or two under the rules we've discussed (no external modules, -T, use strict, -w, etc), put you name next to it on this list. To which we should add that in default configuration the new script has the same input and output requirements as the old script, such that no re-writing of HTML forms or config files is needed when deploying the new script.
Re: Matt's Scripts
At 15:44 13/03/2001, you wrote: Dave wrote: Oops. I just did the Random Text one. Should have put my name down really I suppose. Here it is if you're interested. And what's wrong with the following line? ;-) #!/usr/local/bin/perl -w D'Oh. It's a fair cop :-) In my defense, there isn't any data that could be tainted - but rules is rules! Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
RE: Matt's Scripts
At 15:47 13/03/2001, you wrote: OK, here's a list of Matt's scripts. If you'd like to have a go at rewriting one or two under the rules we've discussed (no external modules, -T, use strict, -w, etc), put you name next to it on this list. To which we should add that in default configuration the new script has the same input and output requirements as the old script, such that no re-writing of HTML forms or config files is needed when deploying the new script. Correct. But Matt's scripts don't have config files IIRC - it's all done by editing variables at the top of the script file. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
MSA rewrite project
Dave Cross wrote: I've just seen a downside to the "no non-standard modules" rule, which is that we'll have to send all mail by piping to sendmail. And that really hits your cross-platform compatibility. Well, it depends on how much pain you want to inflict on yourself. Which is a greater evil: 1. writing the code to not require non-standard modules. 2. including the required modules as simple .pm files to be uploaded to the same directory as the script file. (i.e. no proper 'perl Makefile.PL;make;make test;make install). Assuming that 2 actually works, which is should in many but not all cases. I suggest that 2 is the less of two weevils, in those places where it works.
Re: Strange Request
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:00:41PM +, Dave Cross wrote: I've just seen a downside to the "no non-standard modules" rule, which is that we'll have to send all mail by piping to sendmail. And that really hits your cross-platform compatibility. Write some stuff which will scan the local network for open relays and then just talk SMTP to them. Someone stupid enough to not be able to install modules is stupid enough to have open relays. (joke) -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ This is a signature. There are many like it but this one is mine. ** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important ** PGP signature
Re: Strange Request
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Michael Stevens wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:47:48PM +, David Cantrell wrote: Write some stuff which will scan the local network for open relays and then just talk SMTP to them. Someone stupid enough to not be able to install modules is stupid enough to have open relays. If it's the local network the ability to relay SMTP through a machine would be entirely sensible, surely? Ah. Now what you want is to get a machine off ORBS to try and relay mail through them with some source-routed path :) That's the way to abuse them. :) MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 20 8980 5714 (Home) http://colondot.net/ Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942 (Mobile) Tell me, O Octopus, I begs, / Is those things arms, or is they legs? / I marvel at thee, Octopus; / If I were thou, I'd call me us. -- Ogden Nash
Re: Matt's Scripts
Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 14:23 13/03/2001, you wrote: Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK, here's a list of Matt's scripts. If you'd like to have a go at rewriting one or two under the rules we've discussed (no external modules, -T, use strict, -w, etc), put you name next to it on this list. Random Image Displayer daveh Random Link Generator daveh Random Textdaveh Oops. I just did the Random Text one. Should have put my name down really I suppose. Here it is if you're interested. I surrender. You did it far better than I would have. And quicker. -- Dave Hodgkinson, http://www.hodgkinson.org Editor-in-chief, The Highway Star http://www.deep-purple.com Interim CTO, web server farms, technical strategy -
RE: Matt's Scripts
IIRC the problem with some of them is that they use config data supplied in form variables... do we really want to maintain this? Yes, we do. It's a useful way of supplying configuration information, because editing form fields in HTML has a lower fear threshold than editing perl source files. And then if the junior office slave asked to make the change uploads the file in file in binary after editing it on his PC, it will break the perl script but not the HTML form. Such is real life :-)
Re: Strange Request
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:19:46PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:09:42PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote: I've just seen a downside to the "no non-standard modules" rule, which is that we'll have to send all mail by piping to sendmail. And that really hits your cross-platform compatibility. Why is this a problem? /usr/lib/sendmail is the published interface. And for those unfortunate enough to be using Windows? Then are they going to be running an SMTP listener? If so, where? I neither know nor care. I was taking issue with your claim that relying on /usr/lib/sendmail is a good idea. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ This is a signature. There are many like it but this one is mine. ** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important ** PGP signature
Re: MSA rewrite project
Jonathan Peterson wrote: 2. including the required modules as simple .pm files to be uploaded to the same directory as the script file. (i.e. no proper 'perl Makefile.PL;make;make test;make install). Assuming that 2 actually works, which is should in many but not all cases. Generally, @INC contains '.', so it should work (though remember that Net::SMTP has to go into ./Net/SMTP.pm and not ./SMTP.pm or ./Net::SMTP.pm). Otherwise, use lib '.' should be your friend. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: MSA rewrite project
On or about Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 05:34:03PM +0100, Philip Newton typed: Generally, @INC contains '.', so it should work (though remember that Net::SMTP has to go into ./Net/SMTP.pm and not ./SMTP.pm or ./Net::SMTP.pm). Otherwise, use lib '.' should be your friend. I believe IIS does horribly evil things to the current execution directory. Roger
Re: Strange Request
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:19:46PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:09:42PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote: I've just seen a downside to the "no non-standard modules" rule, which is that we'll have to send all mail by piping to sendmail. And that really hits your cross-platform compatibility. Why is this a problem? /usr/lib/sendmail is the published interface. And for those unfortunate enough to be using Windows? Then are they going to be running an SMTP listener? If so, where? I neither know nor care. I was taking issue with your claim that relying on /usr/lib/sendmail is a good idea. This arose because of your original claim that relying on an SMTP listener is a good idea. What happens if, say, your reverse DNS is temporarily unavailable, and some hosts are deferring messages from you? This policy will probably be implemented across backup MXs too. SMTP allows for deferral. If you can't stick them on a queue, you shouldn't be trying to do SMTP. /usr/lib/sendmail is a good interface for not worrying about this, as it will always put messages on a queue in the first place. 4xx are deferrals. Also, some MXs are *slow*. How do you guarantee to do your SMTP asynchronously from your HTTP transaction? If you neither know nor care, then why advocate this in the first place? MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 20 8980 5714 (Home) http://colondot.net/ Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942 (Mobile) Tell me, O Octopus, I begs, / Is those things arms, or is they legs? / I marvel at thee, Octopus; / If I were thou, I'd call me us. -- Ogden Nash
Re: Matt's Scripts
Dave Cross wrote:
Oops. I just did the Random Text one.
Two comments:
- what's with the "\%\%" in the separator? '%' isn't special in
double-quoted strings, last time I checked. This looks like Mattcode which
backwhacks just about anything ("$hh\:$mm\:$ss" comes to mind, for example).
- s/chmod 744/chmod 644/ , probably
And, of course, there should be a comment at the top above
#!/usr/local/bin/perl to the effect that "you should edit this to point to
where Perl [version 5.00x or above] is installed on your machine".
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
RE: Matt's Scripts
Yes, but *is a security hole, and not a small one*, usually. Yes, if you put the wrong things in there, like locations of files. I guess maybe Matt does this. On the other hand, other things can go in harmlessly, and should, such as the response email address for formmail. As for the security issue, there's no reason why we can't place extra layers of checking in for these values (although of course that may not close all holes). I suppose in extreme cases where the original is a security nightmare, the backward compatability mode should be off by default rather than on by default - but if we don't acheive easy compatability no-one will use the replacements.
Re: Matt's Scripts
From: "Dave Cross" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 March 2001 15:47 Subject: Re: Matt's Scripts At 14:23 13/03/2001, you wrote: Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oops. I just did the Random Text one. Should have put my name down really I suppose. Here it is if you're interested. This works on my win32 box, and is more random than Matts, and required one less line change for me. 1 down ! I'll do some more testing if you want, I'm quite good at breaking things g. I have access to Linux (apache), WinME/98 (apache/PWS), WinNT(IIS) and Mac(Mac!) boxes. /Robert
Re: Matt's Scripts
At 16:53 13/03/01 +, you wrote: At 16:39 13/03/2001, you wrote: Dave Cross wrote: Oops. I just did the Random Text one. And, of course, there should be a comment at the top above #!/usr/local/bin/perl to the effect that "you should edit this to point to where Perl [version 5.00x or above] is installed on your machine". Can you put something like that above the shebang line? I thought that #! had to be the first two chars in the file. Could we write some sort of internal installer process so the instruction to the user would be type 'perl rand_text2.pl configure' and the script then rewrites itself. Updating #! lines etc, possibly even asking configuration questions which get written to config files. Matt Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: Strange Request
Weee! Cascade! On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:38:52PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:19:46PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:09:42PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, Dave Cross wrote: I've just seen a downside to the "no non-standard modules" rule, which is that we'll have to send all mail by piping to sendmail. And that really hits your cross-platform compatibility. Why is this a problem? /usr/lib/sendmail is the published interface. And for those unfortunate enough to be using Windows? Then are they going to be running an SMTP listener? If so, where? I neither know nor care. I was taking issue with your claim that relying on /usr/lib/sendmail is a good idea. This arose because of your original claim that relying on an SMTP listener is a good idea. What happens if, say, your reverse DNS is temporarily unavailable Then you have more important things to worry about, such as finding an ISP with a clue. and some hosts are deferring messages from you? This policy will probably be implemented across backup MXs too. SMTP allows for deferral. If you can't stick them on a queue, you shouldn't be trying to do SMTP. Why not? It's not as if the sort of people using web-mail scripts without their own mail server have anything important to say. If it was important, they would invest in their own server or at least an ISP that provided appropriate facilities. Of course, what you should do is try *both*. Actually, you should first try to use a module. If that fails, see if /usr/lib/sendmail exists and is executable. If it is, then great, use it. If it isn't available, try direct SMTP. Graceful degradation is a Good Thing. /usr/lib/sendmail is a good interface for not worrying about this, as it will always put messages on a queue in the first place. 4xx are deferrals. Also, some MXs are *slow*. How do you guarantee to do your SMTP asynchronously from your HTTP transaction? If you neither know nor care, then why advocate this in the first place? Cos it's wrong to just assume sendmail is available. BTW, try reading what I write in future. If you had, you would have noticed that I said "(joke)" after talking about looking for relays. If you think that counts as 'advocating' that, then I would suggest investing in some English lessons. -- David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/ This is a signature. There are many like it but this one is mine. ** I read encrypted mail first, so encrypt if your message is important ** PGP signature
RE: Matt's Scripts
At 16:55 13/03/01 -, you wrote: Could we write some sort of internal installer process so the instruction to the user would be type 'perl rand_text2.pl configure' and the script then rewrites itself. Updating #! lines etc, possibly even asking No, most people using these scripts don't have command line access to the servers that they need to install the scripts on. We'd have to do something like: go to http://www.yoursite.com/cgi-bin/randtext2.pl?mode=configure and then have configure itself online. Good point! The script would already have to have the correct shebang in order for this to work. Also, we can't necessarily assume that the script would have write access to the disk (or itself) when it is run through the web server. Matt
Re: Strange Request
On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, David Cantrell wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:38:52PM +, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2001, David Cantrell wrote: I neither know nor care. I was taking issue with your claim that relying on /usr/lib/sendmail is a good idea. This arose because of your original claim that relying on an SMTP listener is a good idea. What happens if, say, your reverse DNS is temporarily unavailable Then you have more important things to worry about, such as finding an ISP with a clue. Yes, agreed. But you shouldn't just be injecting mail unless you know what will happen on failure. Handling errors sensibly is a part of good programming. and some hosts are deferring messages from you? This policy will probably be implemented across backup MXs too. SMTP allows for deferral. If you can't stick them on a queue, you shouldn't be trying to do SMTP. Why not? It's not as if the sort of people using web-mail scripts without their own mail server have anything important to say. If it was important, they would invest in their own server or at least an ISP that provided appropriate facilities. Personally I don't want to lose mail. This could happen if I try to do SMTP and get it wrong. It is less likely to happen with (eg) batch SMTP or a sendmail -t implementation. Of course, what you should do is try *both*. Actually, you should first try to use a module. If that fails, see if /usr/lib/sendmail exists and is executable. If it is, then great, use it. If it isn't available, try direct SMTP. Graceful degradation is a Good Thing. Agreed. What do you think the module will do? :) /usr/lib/sendmail is a good interface for not worrying about this, as it will always put messages on a queue in the first place. 4xx are deferrals. Also, some MXs are *slow*. How do you guarantee to do your SMTP asynchronously from your HTTP transaction? If you neither know nor care, then why advocate this in the first place? Cos it's wrong to just assume sendmail is available. It's also wrong to assume that SMTP is available. :) BTW, try reading what I write in future. If you had, you would have noticed that I said "(joke)" after talking about looking for relays. I wasn't actually replying to that, if you go back in the cascade. I realise that that is a joke :). It was the other bit I was replying to. If you think that counts as 'advocating' that, then I would suggest investing in some English lessons. You might want these lessons, to read the cascade. That was a seperate subthread. sorry. you lose. MBM -- Matthew Byng-Maddick Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 20 8980 5714 (Home) http://colondot.net/ Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 7956 613942 (Mobile) Tell me, O Octopus, I begs, / Is those things arms, or is they legs? / I marvel at thee, Octopus; / If I were thou, I'd call me us. -- Ogden Nash
Re: Damian's Diary
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 03:12:18PM +, Greg McCarroll wrote: * Philip Newton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Not some faceless American corporation, but London.pmers (with values of "London" including Belfast and wherever Piers lives). London.pm is not just a regional user group, a state of mind (liver?). Even dha is a London.pm'er although he may not care to admit it ;-) Oh, no question. I'm just glad I don't have to actually take responsibility for you guys... dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Perl can certainly be used as a first computer language, but it was really designed to be a *last* computer language. - Larry Wall
RE: Matt's Scripts
At 05:03 PM 13.3.2001 +, you wrote: No, most people using these scripts don't have command line access to the servers that they need to install the scripts on. We'd have to do something like: go to http://www.yoursite.com/cgi-bin/randtext2.pl?mode=configure and then have configure itself online. Good point! The script would already have to have the correct shebang in order for this to work. Also, we can't necessarily assume that the script would have write access to the disk (or itself) when it is run through the web server. What about using some kind of binary wrapper (or shell? Not sure which would be easier...) that finds out where perl is installed, sets the shebang line accordingly, and then turns over control to the script itself. I realize this would be kind of a pain, but it gets at least part of the way around some of the problems here. -- Chris Devers [EMAIL PROTECTED] webmaster Skillcheck
Re: Damian's Diary
Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dave Cross wrote: Damian's hectic world tour has now finished and he's had time to update his online diary. He says a lot of nice things about us here http://www.yetanother.org/damian/diary_February_2001.html#day_31. Not least of which, perhaps, is The presence of Piers Cawley, Dave Cross, Greg McCarroll, Lon Brocard, and Tony Bowden also meant that at that one gathering I was able to spend time with the contributers of over half my YAS grant. It was very humbling to think that this community of clever and competent people had shown such faith in me. Not some faceless American corporation, but London.pmers (with values of "London" including Belfast and wherever Piers lives). Well, London is where I tend to work. I live in Newark on Trent. Somehow I don't think Damian is going to manage to find time to visit me there though. -- Piers
Re: Strange Request
I've just seen a downside to the "no non-standard modules" rule, which is that we'll have to send all mail by piping to sendmail. And that really hits your cross-platform compatibility. Is IO::Socket cross platform?
Re: Matt's Scripts
*need* to configure #!. #!/bin/sh *ducks*
Re: Strange Request
Redvers Davies wrote: Is IO::Socket cross platform? I believe so. At least, if the platform supports sockets. Cheers, Philip -- Philip Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] All opinions are my own, not my employer's. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Re: Strange Request
On Tue, Mar 13, 2001 at 02:45:30PM +, Dave Cross wrote: We simply can't compete with Matt on backwards compatibility as his scripts all run on 4.036! If you call that "running"... :-/ dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ "I was under medication when I made the decision not to burn the tapes." - President Richard Nixon
