Re: [ANNOUNCE] December social - Bridge House, SE1 - Thurs 4 Dec
-- http://www.silverliningnetworks.com/ Make money on your WiFi network On Dec 3, 2008, at 11:35 PM, Léon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/12/1 Kake L Pugh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello! The December social of the London Perlmongers is this Thursday, 4th December. We're going back to the Bridge House, which is the Adnams place at the south end of Tower Bridge. We have the upstairs function room booked from 6:30pm. This is today! See you there ;-) It's a short walk from both London Bridge and Tower Hill stations. People who prefer buses have the choice of the RV1, 42, 47, 78, 188, 343, or 381. Maps, more info, etc: http://london.randomness.org.uk/wiki.cgi?Bridge_House,_SE1_2UP The pub has a full range of well-kept Adnams beers, Aspall cider, and good food. The upstairs bar will be staffed for us. Standard blurb: Social meets are a chance for the various members of the group to meet up face to face and chat with each other about things - both Perl and non-Perl - and newcomers are more than welcome. The monthly meets tend to be bigger than the other ad hoc meetings that take place at other times, and we make sure that they're in easy to get to locations and the pub serves food (meaning that people can eat in the bar if they want to). They normally start around 6.30pm (or whenever people get there after work) and a group tends to be left come closing time. If you're a newcomer or other first timer (even if you've been lurking on the mailing list or on IRC) then please seek Leon out - we have a tradition that the leader of this motley crew buys the new people a drink (orange or not, either's fine) and introduces them to people. Léon, London.pm Leader
Re: Perl is dead
Léon Brocard wrote: Did anyone go to the London Perl Workshop this weekend? About 200. Including me. It was very well organised and had some great talks. Has anyone go to London.pm technical meetings over the past year? About 60 every two months. There don't seem to be any arranged for the future though :( Is anyone coming to London.pm dim sum at lunchtime? Probably, but I won't be among them. Is anyone coming the London.pm social meeting tonight? I now work significantly closer to Bridge House (and with significantly more Perl, yay), so try and stop me (actually, don't, you might get crushed as I cry out for beer). -- David Dorward
Re: London.pm Dim sum Thursday 1pm: Bamboo Basket
2008/12/4 Léon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/12/1 Léon Brocard [EMAIL PROTECTED]: This is today! Who's coming? There will be a few of us from BBC FMT Vision there, don't know about any other Perl-using BBCers. Iain
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, James Laver wrote: Perl may have taken a huge hit with the banks going bust but it's still going (albeit somewhat wounded). Even when bust, a banks datacenter looks liable to keep chugging along http://www.datacenterknowledge.com/archives/2008/09/17/data-centers-key-to-lehman-sale-to-barclays/ -- Michael ~~~ Michael John Lush PhD Tel:44-1223 492626 Bioinformatician HUGO Gene Nomenclature Committee Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] European Bioinformatics Institute Hinxton, Cambridge URL: http://www.genenames.org ~~~
Re: Perl is dead
- Original Message From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html Is there really no Ruby or Python on that list? There weren't on the original list. Fixed. Perl at least kicks the ass of the upstarts. Until you look at a graph of relative job growth. For Ruby, Perl, PHP and Python, they're all trending up. We're flat. http://is.gd/abyq Cheers, Ovid -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Tech blog- http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ Twitter - http://twitter.com/OvidPerl Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
Re: Perl is dead
- Original Message according to the info on the site, perl skills offer higher rates than most of the top 20 skills. Consider economics. If it's true that their are fewer Perl programmers (http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/38018) but we still need them to maintain code, the remaining programmers have to be paid more. Or maybe management knows that we're more productive so they pay us more (*giggle*) Cheers, Ovid -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Tech blog- http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ Twitter - http://twitter.com/OvidPerl Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
Re: Perl is dead
Guilty of starting a similar discussion thread in the past I feel entitled to ask - what positive outcome would you expect from this thread? Cheers, Zbigniew On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Ovid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html Is there really no Ruby or Python on that list? There weren't on the original list. Fixed. Perl at least kicks the ass of the upstarts. Until you look at a graph of relative job growth. For Ruby, Perl, PHP and Python, they're all trending up. We're flat. http://is.gd/abyq Cheers, Ovid -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Tech blog- http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ Twitter - http://twitter.com/OvidPerl Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 -- Zbigniew Lukasiak http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/ http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
Re: Perl is dead
Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote: Guilty of starting a similar discussion thread in the past I feel entitled to ask - what positive outcome would you expect from this thread? I imagine there'll be some faeces flinging about top posters. Secondly I'm hoping that the extra processing of all this mail flying around will help warm the bloody place up as I'm freezing. S.
Re: Perl is dead
Renaming Perl 6 to something completely different, and renaming perl 5.12 to perl 6. On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Zbigniew Lukasiak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guilty of starting a similar discussion thread in the past I feel entitled to ask - what positive outcome would you expect from this thread? Cheers, Zbigniew On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:04 PM, Ovid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message From: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: http://davehodg.blogspot.com/2008/12/perl-is-dead.html Is there really no Ruby or Python on that list? There weren't on the original list. Fixed. Perl at least kicks the ass of the upstarts. Until you look at a graph of relative job growth. For Ruby, Perl, PHP and Python, they're all trending up. We're flat. http://is.gd/abyq Cheers, Ovid -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Tech blog- http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ Twitter - http://twitter.com/OvidPerl Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6 -- Zbigniew Lukasiak http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/ http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
Re: Perl is dead
- Original Message From: Zbigniew Lukasiak [EMAIL PROTECTED] Guilty of starting a similar discussion thread in the past I feel entitled to ask - what positive outcome would you expect from this thread? Well, I started this on my use.perl blog and not here, but since it was dragged over, I thought I would chime in. The positive outcome is hopefully spurring some people to do something about some of the issues we face and stop pretending there are issues (that so many prominent Perl programmers have to say hey, we're still alive should be indicative of something). My contribution (if you'll pardon the hubris) is hopefully being well-known enough that some Perl programmers might go ahead and acknowledge that there is a problem. Looks like there might be at least one volunteer for the spruce things up bit: http://use.perl.org/~chromatic/journal/38016 Cheers, Ovid -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Tech blog- http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ Twitter - http://twitter.com/OvidPerl Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
Re: Perl is dead
Paul Makepeace wrote: Renaming Perl 6 to something completely different, and renaming perl 5.12 to perl 6. Come on Paul, you're not thinking outside of the box enough on this. Given that half[1] the modules on CPAN now have cutesy names, shouldn't perl 5.12 now have a cutesy name too. I'll start: Truck - big, solid, reliable, not glamorous but carries stuff for miles. S. [1] Proportion may have been exaggerated for effect. Objects in your mirrors are closer than they appear, etc etc :-)
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 12:44:43 +0100, Paul Makepeace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Renaming Perl 6 to something completely different, and renaming perl 5.12 to perl 6. Cool! -- Cosimo
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Paul Makepeace wrote: Renaming Perl 6 to something completely different, and renaming perl 5.12 to perl 6. I find that idea strangely compelling... How about perlx (Or would that be Perl::X)?
Re: My review of LPW 2008
2008/12/4 Michele Beltrame [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I wanted to say thank you to everyone who helped the organization of this year's London Perl Workshop, it was such a great event! This is my review of the workshop, if you're interested in reading it: http://www.cattlegrid.info/blog/2008/12/london-perl-workshop-2008---a.html neat. Added to http://conferences.yapceurope.org/lpw2008/wiki?node=PhotosVideosBlogs A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 08:45:02AM +, David Dorward wrote: Léon Brocard wrote: Did anyone go to the London Perl Workshop this weekend? About 200. Including me. It was very well organised and had some great talks. Aren't most Perl events (more than 20 worldwide in 2008, more than 10 already announced for 2009) only reaching people *within* the Perl community? Not dying also means reaching new and young programmers that will continue to use Perl when we live on pension. How do we reach people outside the community after having spent so much time talking to ourselves? Could going to universities and engineering schools giving presentations about Perl and real-world experience be part of the solution? (As long as we don't forget to tell them how Perl made solving the problem at hand so much easier and faster...) Free, open events like the London Perl Workshop are certainly also part of the solution, but they need to be advertised outside of the Perl community. Also, joint events with other dynamic langages (FSDO dynamic) like the OSDC.fr we're working on with the French Perl, Python and Ruby communities could also help share knowledge and exchange ideas. And maybe grab the attention of the bystanders that came because they keep hearing about that RoR thing. -- Philippe Bruhat (BooK) Be careful when you take one side or the other. You could wind up in the middle.(Moral from Groo The Wanderer #33 (Epic))
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/4 Philippe Bruhat (BooK) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 08:45:02AM +, David Dorward wrote: Léon Brocard wrote: Did anyone go to the London Perl Workshop this weekend? About 200. Aren't most Perl events (more than 20 worldwide in 2008, more than 10 already announced for 2009) only reaching people *within* the Perl community? Not dying also means reaching new and young programmers that will continue to use Perl when we live on pension. How do we reach people outside the community after having spent so much time talking to ourselves? The LPW did have a tutorial track: I believe that was targeted firstly at the students of the host university? Similarly the Italian Perl workshop had a beginner track which had tutorials and general interest talks, all in Italian, distinguished from the expert track, which included some talks in English. I think the approach worked - certainly I think the first-time attendees outside the perl community were in the majority. Getting new blood seems to have been an explicit goal for the workshop, and seems to have worked very well. osfameron
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:33:13PM +0100, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 08:45:02AM +, David Dorward wrote: Léon Brocard wrote: Did anyone go to the London Perl Workshop this weekend? About 200. Including me. It was very well organised and had some great talks. Aren't most Perl events (more than 20 worldwide in 2008, more than 10 already announced for 2009) only reaching people *within* the Perl community? That depends on what you define to be the Perl community. If you consider it to be anyone who programs Perl on a regular bases, then I agree with you. And I don't think any conference about language X will attract a significant number of people not coding in X. But you should realize what a conference is about. It's not about attracting people to the product. General Motors isn't saying hmmm, we've seen a drop in sales - let's organize a conference to attract non GM drivers to GM cars. Conferences are mostly for networking. It's about bringing people in contact with each other, and let them hear what others work on. Only relevatively few people are interested in that. I use many different products, computer languages, databases, OSses, hardware, cameras, cars, food, etc. For almost all of them, including most of the computer languages I use (or used to use) I've no interest into belonging to its community, or join conferences or workshops about that product. Perl conferences (and workshops) are mostly for people that work *on* [Pp]erl in one way or the other (those patching perl, writing documentation, writing CPAN modules, answering questions in fora, etc), not so much a for people working *with* Perl. But the number of people that work on [Pp]erl is just a tiny fraction of the number of people working with Perl. (And that's no different from any other language - except maybe some fringe language with hardly any users at all). You and I work for a pure Perl shop, with quite a number of Perl programmers, but even there the majority doesn't contribute to [Pp]erl, and have no interest in coming to conferences; they are just 'users'. (Not that there's anything wrong with that). So, if you think that Perl is dying (which, BTW, I don't agree with, and haven't agree with for more than 10 years. The cries Perl is dying I've heard ever since I joined my first Perl community in 1995 - and it still isn't dead.), then I don't think the number of conferences, or the number of attendees swings the argument one way or the other. Note that I also don't give much weight to the number of job openings that mention Perl. I've had quite a number of jobs the past 10 years, and I've used Perl a lot in all of them. But only in my current job an advert would have mentioned Perl (although I initially came to the company I now work for as a potential Unix sysadmin - a department where Python is quite popular). Abigail
Re: Perl is dead - so is java according to the graph...
On Thursday 04 December 2008 12:04:59 Ovid wrote: - Original Message Perl at least kicks the ass of the upstarts. Until you look at a graph of relative job growth. For Ruby, Perl, PHP and Python, they're all trending up. We're flat. http://is.gd/abyq http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=python%2C+perl%2C+ruby%2C+php%2C+java%2C+c%2B%2B%2C+shell%2C+sqll=relative=1 Perl is doing about the same as: java, shell, c++ and sql, apparently. So perhaps it depends on how you build your numbers. -- Richard Foley Ciao - shorter than aufwiedersehen http://www.rfi.net/
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is something that I don't have the technical know-how to accomplish, but a way of using Perl from within PHP, I'm guessing as a library extension, would provide a strong deployment vector into a large and talkative community that is often blissfully ignorant that there even is anything else. It would be a neat way to show cool tricks, and the power of CPAN. Doug MacEachern had suggested he was working on something like that ages ago, but I don't know if it went anywhere. It's actually being worked on by a Zend employee: http://pecl.php.net/package/perl There appear to be a few bugs to work out and the project isn't overly publicised. The problem is that the PHP community at large have their way of doing things and cpan modules generally don't fit into 'their way' (mostly from an API-UI perspective, if that makes sense). Obviously Zend feel the need for it to happen if they're spending an employee's time on building it, but I'm not sure how much headway it will make. Talking as the resident PHP-hater (I have a PHP day job, how could I not hate it?), I don't think this is the way forward. At one of the tech meets earlier in the year (the one hosted at Outcome technologies) I gave a speech comparing PHP and Perl and praised the ease of deployment in PHP. This is what I consider to be one of the two problems perl faces right now. I suggested a solution to this as well, a mod_perl replacement that behaves like mod_php (which effectively behaves like standard cgi, but with optional cacheing etc.). The other half of the problem is deploying modules. Most PHP people either don't want to or can't grok the concept of having to 'make' modules (or they don't have make installed etc. and no permissions to install it). We can solve this one by having some ready-made packages (pure-perl only) and a short here's how you use them (use lib '~/lib/perl5'). The other half of the problem is resources that properly target newbies. We don't have a fancy Create a blog in 2 minutes with 4 lines of code a la rails or Create a wiki in 5 minutes a la turbogears (okay, timing and code level exaggerated, but you get the point). Furthermore we don't have an easy introduction to cpan and even less of an easy introduction to packaging modules for cpan. These are still somewhat dark arts. So I propose a four-pronged solution: 1. Create a site targeted at newbies / potential converts where we really do teach these things to people who don't know better or that we could potentially convert rather than people that have a few months of perl under their belt.[1][2] 2. Create an easy distribution mechanism for pure-perl cpan packages. This ideally should be pre-made tarballs/zips that you can just un(tar|zip) into somewhere under ~ 3. Create the mod_php clone behemoth discussed. 4. Create a catalyst handler to make it work under (3) I'm even willing to put my laziness where my mouth is and try to get these going, but help certainly wouldn't be amiss... [1]This is not an attempt to rubbish existing resources which I find to be brilliant but which aren't necessarily achieving the aim I'm noting. I also note the perlmonks is a brilliant resource for beginners [2]If anyone does know of a site like this, I don't. --James
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 4, 2008, at 13:33 , Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote: How do we reach people outside the community after having spent so much time talking to ourselves? This is something that I don't have the technical know-how to accomplish, but a way of using Perl from within PHP, I'm guessing as a library extension, would provide a strong deployment vector into a large and talkative community that is often blissfully ignorant that there even is anything else. It would be a neat way to show cool tricks, and the power of CPAN. Doug MacEachern had suggested he was working on something like that ages ago, but I don't know if it went anywhere. We could just ask people what the don't like about perl, or what they'd like to see change / improve. They'll probably rattle off a list of things which they like about other languages which they don't like in perl, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It might show us the strengths in other languages that we lack?
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/4 Abigail [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Note that I also don't give much weight to the number of job openings that mention Perl. I've had quite a number of jobs the past 10 years, and I've used Perl a lot in all of them. But only in my current job an advert would have mentioned Perl (although I initially came to the company I now work for as a potential Unix sysadmin - a department where Python is quite popular). I'll reinforce that. These days there seems to be a decent sized number of employers trying to find perl staff from a small pool of staff. I don't believe that most people get jobs by responding to adverts. While looking for work when my last $poe made me redundant, I got a fair amount of mileage (1 job offer, and 1 would-have-been-an-offer [1]) from a combination of contacts, and direct from an employer who searched a job board himself. In fact, the recruiter who set up the interview that would-have-been is still contacting me in an effort to get me to head off to their newer clients. Perl jobs these days seem less likely to make the job boards. If anything, this (to me, at least) points towards the vitality of the language - but it doesn't do anything to indicate to newcomers the level of demand. Dominic [1] I feel it would have been an offer, but I withdrew from the interview process after accepting another offer. It later went to a cow-orker. -- No train here, but still: The sign says: Ready to Leave Normal service, yes?
Re: Perl is dead
On 4/12/08 13:01, Abigail wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:33:13PM +0100, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 08:45:02AM +, David Dorward wrote: Léon Brocard wrote: Did anyone go to the London Perl Workshop this weekend? About 200. Including me. It was very well organised and had some great talks. Aren't most Perl events (more than 20 worldwide in 2008, more than 10 already announced for 2009) only reaching people *within* the Perl community? So, if you think that Perl is dying (which, BTW, I don't agree with, and haven't agree with for more than 10 years. The cries Perl is dying I've heard ever since I joined my first Perl community in 1995 - and it still isn't dead.), then I don't think the number of conferences, or the number of attendees swings the argument one way or the other. Very true. I myself came from a graphic design bacground, using technologies like XHTML, Javascript, Flash and Lingo (why?). When I started looking at server-side technologies, naturally I picked-up PHP as that's what everyone (my colleagues) were talking about. A funny thing happened cause after about 3 months or so learning PHP and hacking on PHP projects, I found Perl. Since then I never looked back. I sometimes still delve into PHP but I have loved the Perl way of doing things and found the former a bit weird. The other thing I can say is that by learning Perl's ways, it has developed my overall programming knowledge and affected even the way I write [Java|Action]Script which to me is a bonus. So for me, it's still going strong and if anything at all it would be helpful to have web frameworks (Catalyst et al) that are easier to pick-up so, for instance, us designers can build cool-sh*t without first re-wiring our brains ;-) It's not much of a problem with me as like Sylar (please forgive the Heroes reference), I like looking into the brains of things to see how they work... but I can't say the say for my designer colleagues. Adeola.
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 02:01:37PM +0100, Abigail wrote: Aren't most Perl events (more than 20 worldwide in 2008, more than 10 already announced for 2009) only reaching people *within* the Perl community? That depends on what you define to be the Perl community. If you consider it to be anyone who programs Perl on a regular bases, then I agree with you. And I don't think any conference about language X will attract a significant number of people not coding in X. By Perl community, I meant something like your definition below: people that work *on* [Pp]erl in one way or the other (those patching perl, writing documentation, writing CPAN modules, answering questions in fora, etc) So I guess I was saying that the Perl conferences are attracting people from the Perl community, which you can define roughly as the people going to Perl conferences. Erm. Maybe I wasn't thinking very clearly. I think the Perl is dying cry refers to the perception that there are less Perl users, i.e.: people working *with* Perl. I'm not saying that we should bring in more of the Perl users to the Perl conferences. As you noted, it requires an interest in Perl and in socializing that most of these users will never have anyway. I'm saying that if Perl is dying, or is not recognized and used as we want it to be, we need to reach those Perl users (so that *they* don't believe that Perl is dying and eventually switch) and the people who have yet to become Perl users, and even the ones that are not yet users of any langage (wouldn't it be nice if it was Perl?). Pure Perl conferences will probably never attract them. Technical articles in the mainstream computing press about Perl let people know Perl is still alive and kicking (by mainstream, I basically mean NOT The Perl Review). Technical meetings may attract programmers who think they'll learn something from them for free (but they probably need a well publicized program). Going to the studends to let them know that Perl exists and show some of the awesome things we can do with it is even better, as they'll have a first encounter with Perl that shines a positive light on it. Students get to hear about lots of langages, but usually Perl is not one of them (and neither is Python or Ruby). If their teachers don't tell them about Perl, maybe we need to. Hopefully, their teachers will be in the room, and will also learn something about Perl. We can hope they will be more inclined to talk about it in the future. And then there are the more public conferences, targeting a broad audience of programmers, professionals and users. Maybe there should be a Perl booth in those, with nice demos and presentations, freebies and flyers about the next local PM meeting or the next Perl event. It definitely requires work and coordination, but I think we, the Perl community, can do more in this area (reaching students in universities, holding booths in large conferences). There are many ways to help spread knowledge about Perl's liveliness: I doubt I'll ever be able to contribute a significant piece of code to Perl 5 or 6 themselves, but I have already held a booth in a large Linux conference, written Perl articles in the French computing press, and taught Perl to a class (of colleagues, actually). I'm currently trying to bring some Perl presentations to local universities, and taking part to a joint effort by the French Perl, Python and Ruby communities to organize a free technical conference in Paris in the last quarter of 2009. I'm sure other groups have similar projects and experience. There is stuff we can do, but we are probably not organized enough. Yet. So, if you think that Perl is dying (which, BTW, I don't agree with, and haven't agree with for more than 10 years. I don't know if Perl is dying, but I'm pretty sure the Perl community is not. I keep meeting new faces to every Perl event I go, from the tiniest PM meeting to the biggest YAPC. Let's put them to work! ;-) -- Philippe Bruhat (BooK) Just because you do not see it does not mean it is not there. (Moral from Groo The Wanderer #85 (Epic))
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/4 Philippe Bruhat (BooK) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And then there are the more public conferences, targeting a broad audience of programmers, professionals and users. Good point: I'm planning to give a brief talk on Perl at https://barcamp.pbwiki.com/BarcampLiverpool this weekend. There are lots of these low-budget miniconferences happening all over the world so may be a very good venue to get a few short talks on cool things in Perl into the public view. osfameron
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/4 Avleen Vig [EMAIL PROTECTED]: We could just ask people what the don't like about perl, or what they'd like to see change / improve. They'll probably rattle off a list of things which they like about other languages which they don't like in perl, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It might show us the strengths in other languages that we lack? I think you're talking about the Perl 6 thing here :-O
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:40:41PM +, Avleen Vig wrote: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Robin Berjon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 4, 2008, at 13:33 , Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote: How do we reach people outside the community after having spent so much time talking to ourselves? This is something that I don't have the technical know-how to accomplish, but a way of using Perl from within PHP, I'm guessing as a library extension, would provide a strong deployment vector into a large and talkative community that is often blissfully ignorant that there even is anything else. It would be a neat way to show cool tricks, and the power of CPAN. Doug MacEachern had suggested he was working on something like that ages ago, but I don't know if it went anywhere. We could just ask people what the don't like about perl, or what they'd like to see change / improve. They'll probably rattle off a list of things which they like about other languages which they don't like in perl, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It might show us the strengths in other languages that we lack? Hmmm. So, we go to Python people, and they gives a us a list of things they don't like about Perl. We go back to our woodshop, and turn Perl into Python. Then we go to the Java guys and ask them. And out next version of Perl will look like Java. Repeat this a few times, and you end up with a language noone uses. It now resembles something users of other languages like, but they already have said language, so they won't switch. But the people that used Perl in the first place (because Perl is what it is) no longer use it, because it's no longer Perl. Ask yourself. How much would PHP, Java, Python, whatever need to change to make you as a Perl programmer switch to that language? Would that language still be that language as it's now? The moment Perl start to implement features of other language for the purpose of attracting programmers away from other languages, I'll be convinced Perl is dying. And I'll join a language/community that is convinced of its own strength. Abigail
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 07:01:20PM +, Avleen Vig wrote: Ovid's right. We should be taking a long hard look at ourselves and asking questions. Are we evolving? If not, why not? If we wanted to, what could we change? I do t think we really know what to change or how to change it. OK, fine, we know what to change and how to change it. So how about those who care and have the skills DO IT instead of just talking about it yet again? This topic is boring because it's repeated every few months and yet the people who say something must be done don't then go and do anything. And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. -- David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david Irregular English: you have anecdotes; they have data; I have proof
Re: Perl is dead
On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 07:01:33PM +, Nicholas Clark wrote: On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 06:42:14PM +, James Laver wrote: going bust but it's still going (albeit somewhat wounded). On the other hand, the PHP market is brilliant, just for the most part it pays pretty badly (and you have to work with PHP...). And, as conversations on IRC seem to be suggesting, you sometimes have to work with the things designed by people who self-taught themselves programming with PHP. Not that there isn't crack out there in the world of codebases written in Perl. I think sometimes I'd rather work with code that is just plain bad because it's written by self-taught PHP-heads, than code that is a crawling horror because it's written by terribly clever C or perl people. This week I am mostly hating the source code for wget. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist PLEASE NOTE: This message was meant to offend everyone equally, regardless of race, creed, sexual orientation, politics, choice of beer, operating system, mode of transport, or their editor.
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Abigail [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The moment Perl start to implement features of other language for the purpose of attracting programmers away from other languages, I'll be convinced Perl is dying. And I'll join a language/community that is convinced of its own strength. Ok for Perl as a language, but the point gains sense if Perl is considered as a technology. For example, I think PHP gained momentum for the simplicity of the installing procedures of products based on it. S. -- www.stefanorodighiero.net
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:06 PM, David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think sometimes I'd rather work with code that is just plain bad because it's written by self-taught PHP-heads, than code that is a crawling horror because it's written by terribly clever C or perl people. This week I am mostly hating the source code for wget. At least the experts know what they're doing to begin with whereas the I'm-a-designer-who-knows-php idiots act as if they're experts and royally bugger it up. A recent project included an ORM system half-ported from a .NET one that was left with a large number of bugs in, not to mention massive security holes. At least in perl people standardise on DBI with placeholders (or something built on top of it) because it's lazier to just go with the flow (and thus at least they're saved from SQL injection). --James
Re: Perl is dead
On 4/12/08 15:03, Abigail wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:40:41PM +, Avleen Vig wrote: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Robin Berjon[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 4, 2008, at 13:33 , Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote: How do we reach people outside the community after having spent so much time talking to ourselves? This is something that I don't have the technical know-how to accomplish, but a way of using Perl from within PHP, I'm guessing as a library extension, would provide a strong deployment vector into a large and talkative community that is often blissfully ignorant that there even is anything else. It would be a neat way to show cool tricks, and the power of CPAN. Doug MacEachern had suggested he was working on something like that ages ago, but I don't know if it went anywhere. We could just ask people what the don't like about perl, or what they'd like to see change / improve. They'll probably rattle off a list of things which they like about other languages which they don't like in perl, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It might show us the strengths in other languages that we lack? Hmmm. So, we go to Python people, and they gives a us a list of things they don't like about Perl. We go back to our woodshop, and turn Perl into Python. Then we go to the Java guys and ask them. And out next version of Perl will look like Java. Repeat this a few times, and you end up with a language noone uses. It now resembles something users of other languages like, but they already have said language, so they won't switch. But the people that used Perl in the first place (because Perl is what it is) no longer use it, because it's no longer Perl. Ask yourself. How much would PHP, Java, Python, whatever need to change to make you as a Perl programmer switch to that language? Would that language still be that language as it's now? PHP has implementation of Perl's regular expression with the preg_* (PCRE) functions but that doesn't make make me like it more or less. I just know that when I'm in PHP-land I have a better option for regexp :-) - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Perl is dead
David Cantrell wrote: And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. So fixing use.perl is what we need to do. That will only happen with pudge's active involvement. Does anyone know if he's interested in doing this ? S.
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Abigail [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:40:41PM +, Avleen Vig wrote: We could just ask people what the don't like about perl, or what they'd like to see change / improve. They'll probably rattle off a list of things which they like about other languages which they don't like in perl, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It might show us the strengths in other languages that we lack? Hmmm. So, we go to Python people, and they gives a us a list of things they don't like about Perl. We go back to our woodshop, and turn Perl into Python. Then we go to the Java guys and ask them. And out next version of Perl will look like Java. H. Sounds like a plan. Maybe we could go to some sed people and ask them and then some C, awk and the Bourne Shell people? -- Zbigniew Lukasiak http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/ http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
Re: Perl is dead
- Original Message From: David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. You have to at least give Andy credit for trying. Most people don't get that far. I'm all for folks trying new and interesting stuff. Failures can be just as educational as successes (witness pseudo-hashes). Cheers, Ovid -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Tech blog- http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ Twitter - http://twitter.com/OvidPerl Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
Re: Perl is dead
Simon Wilcox wrote: David Cantrell wrote: And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. So fixing use.perl is what we need to do. That will only happen with pudge's active involvement. Does anyone know if he's interested in doing this ? I think that pudge sees use.perl as a test-bed for Slashcode. And I think that Slashcode is part of the problem here. Does it have to be a fix for use.perl? Or could it be a replacement for use.perl? Dave...
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:33:13PM +0100, Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote: Aren't most Perl events (more than 20 worldwide in 2008, more than 10 already announced for 2009) only reaching people *within* the Perl community? Looking at who attends london.pm socials and tech meets, *plenty* of them have only started showing up in the past two or three years. Looks like we *are* reaching people outside the community. -- David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness Are you feeling bored? depressed? slowed down? Evil Scientists may be manipulating the speed of light in your vicinity. Buy our patented instructional video to find out how, and maybe YOU can stop THEM
Re: Perl is dead
- Original Message From: Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED] So fixing use.perl is what we need to do. That will only happen with pudge's active involvement. Does anyone know if he's interested in doing this ? I don't know, but use.perl has always been a testbed for new slashdot features. I can't say I know anything about slashcode, but features that we build in just to fix problems there would have the potential to impact slashdot. I can't see pudge getting too excited about that (and for good reason). Who knows? Maybe there's some incredible plugin architecture which allows you to scrap most of the current 1995-era functionality/look-and-feel without sacrificing content? Cheers, Ovid -- Buy the book - http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/perlhks/ Tech blog- http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/ Twitter - http://twitter.com/OvidPerl Official Perl 6 Wiki - http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl6
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 15:20 +, Simon Wilcox wrote: David Cantrell wrote: And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. So fixing use.perl is what we need to do. That will only happen with pudge's active involvement. Does anyone know if he's interested in doing this ? If he's not, is there scope for re-allocating the sub-domain to someone who is interested in making it a shinier representative of the Perl community? If use.perl.org is primarily Pudge's Slash test-site then surely it should be use.slashcode.com Or indeed, could we get a different perl.org subdomain allocated to such a project? For instance, would buzz.perl.org attract more readers, more content, and more google-juice than perlbuzz.com? The number of attempts at starting a new site over the last few years would seem to indicate the interest and enthusiasm is there for starting over if that's what's required, but as long as those sites aren't 'official' then they're always going to fighting an uphill battle from day one. Are any of them good enough to be worth putting up for consideration for a perl.org sub-domain? Is it better to extend and improve what already exists, or to replace it with something designed and built recently, with current requirements and capabilities in mind? Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. The fact that we as a community tend to look at the former solution could be considered one of the symptoms of Perl's 'death'. Or as one of its strengths. :)
Re: Perl is dead
On 4 Dec 2008, at 15:03, David Cantrell wrote: On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 07:01:20PM +, Avleen Vig wrote: Ovid's right. We should be taking a long hard look at ourselves and asking questions. Are we evolving? If not, why not? If we wanted to, what could we change? I do t think we really know what to change or how to change it. OK, fine, we know what to change and how to change it. So how about those who care and have the skills DO IT instead of just talking about it yet again? This topic is boring because it's repeated every few months and yet the people who say something must be done don't then go and do anything. And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. Might not have fixed any problems that we collectively care about, but I do use it for my primary interesting new developments in Perl source. perlbuzz++ from me. use.perl.org seems to suffer from lack of editorial oversight and exceptionally unattractive colour scheme. - Mark
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 07:40 -0800, Ovid wrote: I can't say I know anything about slashcode, but [...] Maybe there's some incredible plugin architecture which allows you to scrap most of the current 1995-era functionality/look-and-feel without sacrificing content? If the content is all we care about then I think I know a programming language that might enable us to write a migration script.
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 03:14:13PM +, James Laver wrote: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:06 PM, David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think sometimes I'd rather work with code that is just plain bad because it's written by self-taught PHP-heads, than code that is a crawling horror because it's written by terribly clever C or perl people. This week I am mostly hating the source code for wget. At least the experts know what they're doing to begin with You'd think so. Maybe they do. But they don't necessarily know *why* they're doing it, or think about the poor bastard who has to work with their code and fix it later. And anyway, I said terribly clever people, not experts. I'm-a-designer-who-knows-php idiots They are NOT idiots. They are, perhaps, ignorant, but there's nothing wrong with being ignorant. At least in perl people standardise on DBI with placeholders (or something built on top of it) because it's lazier to just go with the flow (and thus at least they're saved from SQL injection). Ah-hahahahahahahaha -- David Cantrell | top google result for topless karaoke murders I remember when computers were frustrating because they did exactly what you told them to. That seems kinda quaint now. -- JD Baldwin, in the Monastery
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:44:43AM +, Paul Makepeace wrote: Renaming Perl 6 to something completely different, and renaming perl 5.12 to perl 6. Perl 5 and Perl 6 are different languages at this point. Perl 5 12.0 solves that problem neatly ;)
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/4 Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED]: David Cantrell wrote: And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. So fixing use.perl is what we need to do. That will only happen with pudge's active involvement. Yeah but from what I'm reading between the lines part of the problem at least is that we are blogging and promoting inwardly on these kind of sites in the first place, we put in a lot of effort to talk to ourselves when we should be talking to the people who don't already read those sites: people shouldn't be blogging about Perl on use.perl they should be blogging about it elsewhere. /J\
Re: Perl is dead
On 4 Dec 2008, at 16:13, jesse wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:44:43AM +, Paul Makepeace wrote: Renaming Perl 6 to something completely different, and renaming perl 5.12 to perl 6. Perl 5 and Perl 6 are different languages at this point. Not to people outside the Perl community. Perl 5 12.0 solves that problem neatly ;) Never heard of it before today.
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 04:19:31PM +, Nicholas Clark wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:13:55AM -0500, jesse wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:44:43AM +, Paul Makepeace wrote: Renaming Perl 6 to something completely different, and renaming perl 5.12 to perl 6. Perl 5 and Perl 6 are different languages at this point. Perl 5 12.0 solves that problem neatly ;) ^ ^ | | `- that character | `-- and that character are not the same, yet they map to the same concept in the implementation. How about .0 vs 0? ;) 5.012000 = Perl 5.12.0 = Perl 5 12.0 Find a single character that can sit in both positions, and this plan is far more viable. This is the 'marketing name', not what the code reports. The code is still reporting things the way it used to report 5.01 Perl describes a family of languages. The one we know and love is Perl 5. The one I'm the project manager for is called Perl 6. It's only fitting that the 5 make its way from version number to name since incrementing it to 6 or 7 is going to start a flame war the size of...[I'm not going to autogodwinize now, thank you very much.] Nicholas Clark --
Re: [Gllug-Social] [ANNOUNCE] December social - Bridge House, SE1 - Thurs 4 Dec
Was it just me? This message took 46 hours to get to me? It was posted at 14:57 GMT on Monday and I received it just befor noon today. Andrew Ampers Taylor Blog, Website, Photographs, Humour -Original Message- From: Kake L Pugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: london.pm@london.pm.org, Social events/announcements [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Gllug-Social] [ANNOUNCE] December social - Bridge House, SE1 - Thurs 4 Dec Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 14:57:40 + Hello! The December social of the London Perlmongers is this Thursday, 4th December. We're going back to the Bridge House, which is the Adnams place at the south end of Tower Bridge. We have the upstairs function room booked from 6:30pm. It's a short walk from both London Bridge and Tower Hill stations. People who prefer buses have the choice of the RV1, 42, 47, 78, 188, 343, or 381. Maps, more info, etc: http://london.randomness.org.uk/wiki.cgi?Bridge_House,_SE1_2UP The pub has a full range of well-kept Adnams beers, Aspall cider, and good food. The upstairs bar will be staffed for us. Standard blurb: Social meets are a chance for the various members of the group to meet up face to face and chat with each other about things - both Perl and non-Perl - and newcomers are more than welcome. The monthly meets tend to be bigger than the other ad hoc meetings that take place at other times, and we make sure that they're in easy to get to locations and the pub serves food (meaning that people can eat in the bar if they want to). They normally start around 6.30pm (or whenever people get there after work) and a group tends to be left come closing time. If you're a newcomer or other first timer (even if you've been lurking on the mailing list or on IRC) then please seek Leon out - we have a tradition that the leader of this motley crew buys the new people a drink (orange or not, either's fine) and introduces them to people. ___ Social mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.gllug.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/social signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Perl is dead
On 4 Dec 2008, at 16:28, Jonathan Stowe wrote: 2008/12/4 Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED]: David Cantrell wrote: And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. Yeah but from what I'm reading between the lines part of the problem at least is that we are blogging and promoting inwardly on these kind of sites in the first place, we put in a lot of effort to talk to ourselves when we should be talking to the people who don't already read those sites: people shouldn't be blogging about Perl on use.perl they should be blogging about it elsewhere. And this is a sentiment made by Andy (one of the people behind PerlBuzz) in one of the articles on PerlBuzz, http://perlbuzz.com/2008/05/perl-decentralize-diversify-colonize.html Personally, I don't think good Perl programmers have ever been just 'Perl programmers', they've been sysadmins, DBA's or functional and yet pragmatic programmers who have stumbled into Perl and often stuck around for one reason or another. Maybe they just were lazy and liked CPAN, or else they liked the people in the community. And I don't think the language matters as much as the spirit. But if the language is a vehicle for the spirit, then the way to promote it is by doing things that are outwardly facing. And by doing things I don't mean blogging about another internal (to Perl) module that is useful within Perl programming, I mean something that makes other technical and non-technical business/academic groups take notice. And this activity should be focused on the task at hand, not the publicity. There are ideas that can be help with the publicity; perhaps a tag on use perl blogs to indicate it's externally interesting or a clearing house for articles; leaving PerlBuzz and the use.perl frontpage to do the rest. But the key is to look outward and do interesting stuff. G.
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 01:59:00PM +0100, Robin Berjon wrote:
On Dec 4, 2008, at 13:33 , Philippe Bruhat (BooK) wrote:
How do we reach people outside the community after having spent so
much
time talking to ourselves?
This is something that I don't have the technical know-how to
accomplish, but a way of using Perl from within PHP, I'm guessing as a
library extension, would provide a strong deployment vector into a
large and talkative community that is often blissfully ignorant that
there even is anything else. It would be a neat way to show cool
tricks, and the power of CPAN. Doug MacEachern had suggested he was
working on something like that ages ago, but I don't know if it went
anywhere.
I am doing some (extremely PoC at present) hacking with the new Java 7
invokedynamic / MethodHandles technology, towards implementing a toy /
for interest only dynamic language with (a subset of) Perl syntax on
the JVM.
I am making some limited progress, viz:
package TestB;
# Bring a Java class into scope
use java.util.HashMap;
sub bar {
my $b = 1;
my $c;
my $obj = new HashMap();
# FIXME No auto-inc operators yet
# $b++;
if ($b == 0) {
$b = yy;
} else {
$b = zz;
}
print $b;
print $obj-toString();
}
1;
will parse and compile to a .class - although the dynamic invocation
stuff isn't integrated yet.
I would welcome collaborators / people to talk about it with at the
pub, from within the Perl community or the Java community, or any other.
Thanks,
Ben
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/4 Greg McCarroll [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 4 Dec 2008, at 16:28, Jonathan Stowe wrote: 2008/12/4 Simon Wilcox [EMAIL PROTECTED]: David Cantrell wrote: And no, setting up yet another blog aggregator or yet another obscure site that occasionally publishes an article, those don't count. perlbuzz's existence hasn't fixed any problems. Yeah but from what I'm reading between the lines part of the problem at least is that we are blogging and promoting inwardly on these kind of sites in the first place, we put in a lot of effort to talk to ourselves when we should be talking to the people who don't already read those sites: people shouldn't be blogging about Perl on use.perl they should be blogging about it elsewhere. And this is a sentiment made by Andy (one of the people behind PerlBuzz) in one of the articles on PerlBuzz, http://perlbuzz.com/2008/05/perl-decentralize-diversify-colonize.html Personally, I don't think good Perl programmers have ever been just 'Perl programmers', they've been sysadmins, DBA's or functional and yet pragmatic programmers who have stumbled into Perl and often stuck around for one reason or another. Maybe they just were lazy and liked CPAN, or else they liked the people in the community. And I don't think the language matters as much as the spirit. But if the language is a vehicle for the spirit, then the way to promote it is by doing things that are outwardly facing. And by doing things I don't mean blogging about another internal (to Perl) module that is useful within Perl programming, I mean something that makes other technical and non-technical business/academic groups take notice. And this activity should be focused on the task at hand, not the publicity. There are ideas that can be help with the publicity; perhaps a tag on use perl blogs to indicate it's externally interesting or a clearing house for articles; leaving PerlBuzz and the use.perl frontpage to do the rest. But the key is to look outward and do interesting stuff. Absolutely, if the perl community is going to talk to the rest of the world then it had better be something the rest of the world is interested in or they are going to think you're a bunch of kooks.
Re: [Gllug-Social] [ANNOUNCE] December social - Bridge House, SE1 - Thurs 4 Dec
On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 12:20:04PM +, Andrew Taylor wrote: Was it just me? This message took 46 hours to get to me? It was posted at 14:57 GMT on Monday and I received it just befor noon today. Yes. (Based on a sample size of two.) I suspect it has somethig to do with moderation on the various lists. -- Paul Johnson - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pjcj.net
Re: Perl is dead
Hi Stefano! Ok for Perl as a language, but the point gains sense if Perl is considered as a technology. For example, I think PHP gained momentum for the simplicity of the installing procedures of products based on it. I think this simplicity of those installations derives from the fact that providers are easily able to build a php/mod_php which includes the most used things (mail functions, database access, image processing) directly into the php binary. PHP programmers only need to upload their .php files via FTP and they just work. No modules to install, it's all already there. Also, mod_php provides a semi-persistent environment where at least the interpreter and the modules are already loaded, provided an interesting performance gain over plain CGI. mod_perl and mod_fastcgi don't really provide such functionality in the sense that also the application is persistent, which is not a desirable thing for little, seldomly hit, pages, or in a shared hosting environment; moreover, they're harder to work with by the casual web programmer. Should we go as far as creating a mod_lightperl alike to mod_php, which makes the interpreter stay resident and and bundles the commonly used web-related modules? Used together with something like HTML::Mason this could actually become something really akin to PHP, with the only difference that one writes its code in Perl. And then Dreamweaver users could use Perl as easily as PHP; but, at this point, more than Perl it would be a web development system where you enter some Perl inside your web pages. Is this the application we want now? I'm unsure (for real). Michele. -- Michele Beltrame http://www.cattlegrid.info/ ICQ 76660101 - MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Gllug-Social] [ANNOUNCE] December social - Bridge House, SE1 - Thurs 4 Dec
On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 18:44 +0100, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 12:20:04PM +, Andrew Taylor wrote: Was it just me? This message took 46 hours to get to me? It was posted at 14:57 GMT on Monday and I received it just befor noon today. Yes. (Based on a sample size of two.) I suspect it has somethig to do with moderation on the various lists. Yes, surprisingly some of the moderators actually have work to do. /J\
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/3 Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In response to Ovid's post on use.perl: Funny how a bunch of people who claim they used to do perl but switched to python and now uber-programmers that chicks dig turn up on use.perl after it appears on reddit and then proclaim that they know all about the health of perl, when nobody has heard of them and they never bothered to ever even post to a perl monger list. Obviously those are the people who should dictate what people who do actually use perl should do. What is it with python zealots that they really really wish Perl was dying.. insecure much ? A. -- http://www.aarontrevena.co.uk LAMP System Integration, Development and Hosting
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Michele Beltrame [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this simplicity of those installations derives from the fact that providers are easily able to build a php/mod_php which includes the most used things (mail functions, database access, image processing) directly into the php binary. PHP programmers only need to upload their .php files via FTP and they just work. No modules to install, it's all already there. I like where this might go. Although everyone in the Perl community knows TIMTOWTDI, we also know that some ways are better than others. Nonetheless, I believe this is not the case for people outside or just entering the Perl world, specially regarding modules and a certain public repository we all know and love. There's been a lot of effort in providing some support for recommendation such as annocpan, cpanratings, cpanrt, cpants, cpantesters, and the 'related modules' box, but they are mostly see-for-yourself-and-make-your-choice. Don't get me wrong, all those services are marvelous, but to Perl programmers. Beginners and enthusiasts probably won't figure them out (so many options, so little time), and web providers certainty won't care much. As a suggestion that might not go anywhere (or even introduce flame), maybe the community could discuss a set of recommended general purpose modules for our beloved general purpose language, ones we believe would cover most of the popular Perl programming. Should we turn it into a Bundle or two (CPAN-Standard, CPAN-Enterprise, whatever), it'd be a lot easier for newcomers to know where to look at, easier for enterprises to evaluate Perl's power, and easier for everyone to deploy. As it would be sort of a standard modules installation, Michele's comment (no modules to install, it's all already there) would also apply to Perl (well, not Perl itself as I'm not talking about core modules, but I hope you know what I mean). Should we go as far as creating a mod_lightperl alike to mod_php, which makes the interpreter stay resident and and bundles the commonly used web-related modules? Used together with something like HTML::Mason this could actually become something really akin to PHP, with the only difference that one writes its code in Perl. And then Dreamweaver users could use Perl as easily as PHP; but, at this point, more than Perl it would be a web development system where you enter some Perl inside your web pages. Like embperl? http://perl.apache.org/embperl/ Cheers, -b
Re: Perl is dead
Apparently Java is dead too: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=python%2C+perl%2C+java%2C+phpl=relative=1 First pick the RIGHT metrics. -- Dave HodgkinsonMSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Site: http://www.davehodgkinson.com UK: +44 7768 490620 Blog: http://davehodg.blogspot.com Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davehodg
Re: Perl is dead
On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 12:54:45PM +1300, Kent Fredric wrote: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 12:45 PM, David Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 11:17:16PM +, Dave Hodgkinson wrote: Apparently Java is dead too: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=python%2C+perl%2C+java%2C+phpl=relative=1 So's C. And Windows. http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=narcotics%2C+phpl=relative=1 At least we're still more popular than Jesus: http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=jesus%2C+perll=relative=1
Re: Perl is dead
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:41 PM, breno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Michele Beltrame [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this simplicity of those installations derives from the fact that providers are easily able to build a php/mod_php which includes the most used things (mail functions, database access, image processing) directly into the php binary. PHP programmers only need to upload their .php files via FTP and they just work. No modules to install, it's all already there. I like where this might go. Although everyone in the Perl community knows TIMTOWTDI, we also know that some ways are better than others. Nonetheless, I believe this is not the case for people outside or just entering the Perl world, specially regarding modules and a certain public repository we all know and love. There's been a lot of effort in providing some support for recommendation such as annocpan, cpanratings, cpanrt, cpants, cpantesters, and the 'related modules' box, but they are mostly see-for-yourself-and-make-your-choice. Don't get me wrong, all those services are marvelous, but to Perl programmers. Beginners and enthusiasts probably won't figure them out (so many options, so little time), and web providers certainty won't care much. As a suggestion that might not go anywhere (or even introduce flame), maybe the community could discuss a set of recommended general purpose modules for our beloved general purpose language, ones we believe would cover most of the popular Perl programming. Should we turn it into a Bundle or two (CPAN-Standard, CPAN-Enterprise, whatever), it'd be a lot easier for newcomers to know where to look at, easier for enterprises to evaluate Perl's power, and easier for everyone to deploy. As it would be sort of a standard modules installation, Michele's comment (no modules to install, it's all already there) would also apply to Perl (well, not Perl itself as I'm not talking about core modules, but I hope you know what I mean). To support this - a blog post from Alistair Cocburn: http://alistair.cockburn.us/Shu+Ha+Ri+to+Practices+Principles+Values It is about the need for exact instructions for the beginners. The problem is of course in the module choice - I don't know if there ever can be build a consensus about that. -- Zbigniew Lukasiak http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/ http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
Re: Perl is dead
On Fri, 2008-12-05 at 08:06 +0100, Zbigniew Lukasiak wrote: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:41 PM, breno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Michele Beltrame [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this simplicity of those installations derives from the fact that providers are easily able to build a php/mod_php which includes the most used things (mail functions, database access, image processing) directly into the php binary. PHP programmers only need to upload their .php files via FTP and they just work. No modules to install, it's all already there. I like where this might go. Although everyone in the Perl community knows TIMTOWTDI, we also know that some ways are better than others. Nonetheless, I believe this is not the case for people outside or just entering the Perl world, specially regarding modules and a certain public repository we all know and love. There's been a lot of effort in providing some support for recommendation such as annocpan, cpanratings, cpanrt, cpants, cpantesters, and the 'related modules' box, but they are mostly see-for-yourself-and-make-your-choice. Don't get me wrong, all those services are marvelous, but to Perl programmers. Beginners and enthusiasts probably won't figure them out (so many options, so little time), and web providers certainty won't care much. As a suggestion that might not go anywhere (or even introduce flame), maybe the community could discuss a set of recommended general purpose modules for our beloved general purpose language, ones we believe would cover most of the popular Perl programming. Should we turn it into a Bundle or two (CPAN-Standard, CPAN-Enterprise, whatever), it'd be a lot easier for newcomers to know where to look at, easier for enterprises to evaluate Perl's power, and easier for everyone to deploy. As it would be sort of a standard modules installation, Michele's comment (no modules to install, it's all already there) would also apply to Perl (well, not Perl itself as I'm not talking about core modules, but I hope you know what I mean). To support this - a blog post from Alistair Cocburn: http://alistair.cockburn.us/Shu+Ha+Ri+to+Practices+Principles+Values It is about the need for exact instructions for the beginners. The problem is of course in the module choice - I don't know if there ever can be build a consensus about that. There are plenty of people here who will remember Perl 5 Enterprise Edition and what a great success it was at achieving almost the same aims. /J\
Re: Perl is dead
On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:06 AM, Zbigniew Lukasiak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:41 PM, breno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Michele Beltrame [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this simplicity of those installations derives from the fact that providers are easily able to build a php/mod_php which includes the most used things (mail functions, database access, image processing) directly into the php binary. PHP programmers only need to upload their .php files via FTP and they just work. No modules to install, it's all already there. I like where this might go. Although everyone in the Perl community knows TIMTOWTDI, we also know that some ways are better than others. Nonetheless, I believe this is not the case for people outside or just entering the Perl world, specially regarding modules and a certain public repository we all know and love. There's been a lot of effort in providing some support for recommendation such as annocpan, cpanratings, cpanrt, cpants, cpantesters, and the 'related modules' box, but they are mostly see-for-yourself-and-make-your-choice. Don't get me wrong, all those services are marvelous, but to Perl programmers. Beginners and enthusiasts probably won't figure them out (so many options, so little time), and web providers certainty won't care much. As a suggestion that might not go anywhere (or even introduce flame), maybe the community could discuss a set of recommended general purpose modules for our beloved general purpose language, ones we believe would cover most of the popular Perl programming. Should we turn it into a Bundle or two (CPAN-Standard, CPAN-Enterprise, whatever), it'd be a lot easier for newcomers to know where to look at, easier for enterprises to evaluate Perl's power, and easier for everyone to deploy. As it would be sort of a standard modules installation, Michele's comment (no modules to install, it's all already there) would also apply to Perl (well, not Perl itself as I'm not talking about core modules, but I hope you know what I mean). To support this - a blog post from Alistair Cocburn: http://alistair.cockburn.us/Shu+Ha+Ri+to+Practices+Principles+Values It is about the need for exact instructions for the beginners. The problem is of course in the module choice - I don't know if there ever can be build a consensus about that. Sorry - the original essay on Shu Ha Ri is at: http://alistair.cockburn.us/Shu+Ha+Ri -- Zbigniew Lukasiak http://brudnopis.blogspot.com/ http://perlalchemy.blogspot.com/
Re: Perl is dead
2008/12/5 Jonathan Stowe [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There are plenty of people here who will remember Perl 5 Enterprise Edition and what a great success it was at achieving almost the same aims. Good morning. This is your leader speaking. I'm calling this thread dead - it has served no practical purpose other to annoy me. If you think something is missing, please create it. If you think something is broken, please fix it. Just stop telling us what we should do. A lot of us are already volunteering our time to do things that you don't know needs fixing. The whole point of an open source community is that the community is decentralised and anyone is able to do anything at any time. Actions speak larger than words. The early bird gets the worm. Never eat shredded wheat. Thank you, Léon ps if you do care strongly about something, you can create a seperate thread. or use the appropriate mailing list. ta.
