4 Sermisy intabulations
Some nice new pieces on my website: 4 different intabulations of a song by Claude de Sermisy by da crema, newsiedler, phalese and waissel. Original song has also been included. This must have been a hitparade piece in the 16th century. Pieces are in the open abctab format and in postscript. http://www.science.uva.nl/~walstra/ABCArchive/index.html Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Bent peg box
Michael Were the old swan necks repaired or left in their deformed state, assuming it is possible to tell this from looking at it? Marion, I personally drew up some plans of the Yale Jauch, and noticed the extension was in absolute perfect playable condition. There were other problems with it but the neck was fine. Also Hoppy Smith made a recording using the 1755 Widhalm with a swan neck, as well as the swan neck Hoffman, and the Martin Brunner. The only problems I've heard associated with swan necks were made by contemparie makers, who used the wrong kind of woods, and didn't copy the design properly, and this only in the early days. Now everyone has it down. I used the word explode, but you seem to give the impression that the swan neck will self destruct, which obviously isn't true. BTW are you a lute maker as well?best, All the Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Bent peg box Dear Michael, Whereas some people think it's a problem, others see it as an advantage. Like so many things, there are advantages and disadvantages. How does a luthier compensate? Assuming you did not like this effect, what kind of a repair would the luthier do to fix it? Have you had this done and is it expensive? (So far, I like mine the way it is, unless someone can convince me that it is really a bad thing.) I hope it lasts longer than I will. If it falls apart that fast I've got problems. :) It is not clear how my explanation sounds like the lute will explode. This is a very gradual effect. Were the old swan necks repaired or left in their deformed state, assuming it is possible to tell this from looking at it? Best Regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 14, 2005 8:39 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Corran [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Bent peg box ++In reference to the deformation that occurs in swan-neck lutes, we have a slightly non-equilibrium situation. The forces are not exactly balanced and over a period of time the string tension overcomes the rigidity of the neck. It will overpower the neck in the place of least resistance, namely in the swan part of the neck Marion, This isn't a problem. Of course the swan neck pegbox will bend forward under initial tension. A lute maker will compensate for this, once everything is adjusted it will last longer than you. You make it sound like the whole thing will explode. Of course, Everything's impermanent, at some point, but so far the swan neck lutes I've seen built 250 years ago are fine. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Richard Corran [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:16 PM Subject: Re: Bent peg box Dear Richard, Please see my comments below ++. ___ There are a number of misunderstandings about the forces on a peg box. First of all the only force transmitted to the peg box comes from the strings. ++The other forces besides the transmited force are friction and the electrostatic forces inside the molecules that maintain rigidity in the neck, pegs, etc. without which the neck would collapse when the tension was applied. These forces are equal and opposite to the applied force, resulting in an equilibrium situation in which there is no apparent change. Bending them around a corner doesn't make much difference to the force in magnitude (it decreases a little due to friction although depending on whether the tuned note is approached from above or below in pitch, it can actually be higher than the tension in the sounding part of the string.) So peg boxes are not bent back to reduce the force. ++Actually, bending a line, cord, rope, or string around corners produces a great deal of force in the form of friction, which always opposes motion. It is friction that keeps our pegs from rotating when set in a certain position (in theory). This is why we have capstans on boats. The more turns around the capstan, the greater the friction and the better the advantage. Friction originates from the forces already resident in the material (which are balanced in the absence of a perturbation.) It does, of course, change the direction but so what? ++It redistributes the force. This change consititues the perturbation necessary to produce friction. Secondly the force on an individual peg is also practically identical whatever the angle of the peg box. ++The difference is the force distribution. The interesting part happens at the nut, not so much at the pegs, however
Re: Bent peg box
Dear Michael, Thank you for posting. Please see comments below. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 15, 2005 6:34 AM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Bent peg box Michael Were the old swan necks repaired or left in their deformed state, assuming it is possible to tell this from looking at it? Marion, I personally drew up some plans of the Yale Jauch, and noticed the extension was in absolute perfect playable condition. There were other problems with it but the neck was fine. Also Hoppy Smith made a recording using the 1755 Widhalm with a swan neck, as well as the swan neck Hoffman, and the Martin Brunner. The only problems I've heard associated with swan necks were made by contemparie makers, who used the wrong kind of woods, and didn't copy the design properly, and this only in the early days. Now everyone has it down. ++Do you know what kind(s) of wood they used? What was the design difference? I used the word explode, but you seem to give the impression that the swan neck will self destruct, which obviously isn't true. ++Obivously not. I did not mean to imply this. Small distortions do not ruin an instrument. I have seen some (very) cheap guitars made incorrectly that all but self distructed. They made a gradual transition over the years from playable practice instrument to wall hanger via bent neck (not swan neck). BTW are you a lute maker as well? ++No, but I have been known to repair a few instruments and make a couple of cases. best, All the Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:28 AM Subject: Re: Bent peg box Dear Michael, Whereas some people think it's a problem, others see it as an advantage. Like so many things, there are advantages and disadvantages. How does a luthier compensate? Assuming you did not like this effect, what kind of a repair would the luthier do to fix it? Have you had this done and is it expensive? (So far, I like mine the way it is, unless someone can convince me that it is really a bad thing.) I hope it lasts longer than I will. If it falls apart that fast I've got problems. :) It is not clear how my explanation sounds like the lute will explode. This is a very gradual effect. Were the old swan necks repaired or left in their deformed state, assuming it is possible to tell this from looking at it? Best Regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 14, 2005 8:39 PM To: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Corran [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Bent peg box ++In reference to the deformation that occurs in swan-neck lutes, we have a slightly non-equilibrium situation. The forces are not exactly balanced and over a period of time the string tension overcomes the rigidity of the neck. It will overpower the neck in the place of least resistance, namely in the swan part of the neck Marion, This isn't a problem. Of course the swan neck pegbox will bend forward under initial tension. A lute maker will compensate for this, once everything is adjusted it will last longer than you. You make it sound like the whole thing will explode. Of course, Everything's impermanent, at some point, but so far the swan neck lutes I've seen built 250 years ago are fine. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Dr. Marion Ceruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Richard Corran [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 3:16 PM Subject: Re: Bent peg box Dear Richard, Please see my comments below ++. ___ There are a number of misunderstandings about the forces on a peg box. First of all the only force transmitted to the peg box comes from the strings. ++The other forces besides the transmited force are friction and the electrostatic forces inside the molecules that maintain rigidity in the neck, pegs, etc. without which the neck would collapse when the tension was applied. These forces are equal and opposite to the applied force, resulting in an equilibrium situation in which there is no apparent change. Bending them around a corner doesn't make much difference to the force in magnitude (it decreases a little due to friction although depending on whether the tuned note is approached from above or below in pitch, it can actually be higher than the tension in the sounding part of the string.) So peg boxes are not bent back to reduce the force. ++Actually, bending a line, cord, rope, or string around corners produces a great deal of force in the form of friction, which always opposes motion.
Re: 18 th century chamber music
A few people have asked me about the 18th century chamber music. Von Huene charges $60.00 for it, but Steve at OMI facsimiles charges $48.00. Heres the link http://www.omifacsimiles.com/ BTW, Roman whats in the Augsburg MS. Does OMI carry it? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 2:11 PM Subject: Re: 18 th century chamber music Last week I ordered Baron and Weiss Facsimiles from Von Hunne, but by = mistake they sent me Facsimiles of Chamber Music Of The 18 th = century instead. I decided to keep the music and not send it back, = because, hey why not. À good portion of that batch is playable as solos. RT It has sonatas for lute, transverse flute, oboe, violin, and cello, = by Meussel, Kuhnel, Blohm, etc. My question is, are there any = recordings of this music, so I can present it to my sons cello teacher. = Is it good music? =20 Some of it is quite fine, although not quite on the level of the Augsburg Ms. RT Also, some of this calls for Viola di Gamba, can this be played on = the cello instead? Also some calls for Basso Does this mean a large = stand up type of bass? =20 So far I could put together a group of lute, Violin, cello and flute, = it might be fun. Thanks, Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Antwort: Re: 18 th century chamber music
I don't know about omi but most of it is edited by the german publisher Trekel who have a web page. It's divided into several publications. All of them edited by Joachim Domning. (among them the complete works by Hagen, Falckenhagen which are omited from the augsburg collction and he also seperatly published the chamber music as sammelhefte) Thomas Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 15.03.2005 16:50:23 An:Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Kopie: Thema: Re: 18 th century chamber music A few people have asked me about the 18th century chamber music. Von Huene charges $60.00 for it, but Steve at OMI facsimiles charges $48.00. Heres the link http://www.omifacsimiles.com/ BTW, Roman whats in the Augsburg MS. Does OMI carry it? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 2:11 PM Subject: Re: 18 th century chamber music Last week I ordered Baron and Weiss Facsimiles from Von Hunne, but by = mistake they sent me Facsimiles of Chamber Music Of The 18 th = century instead. I decided to keep the music and not send it back, = because, hey why not. À good portion of that batch is playable as solos. RT It has sonatas for lute, transverse flute, oboe, violin, and cello, = by Meussel, Kuhnel, Blohm, etc. My question is, are there any = recordings of this music, so I can present it to my sons cello teacher. = Is it good music? =20 Some of it is quite fine, although not quite on the level of the Augsburg Ms. RT Also, some of this calls for Viola di Gamba, can this be played on = the cello instead? Also some calls for Basso Does this mean a large = stand up type of bass? =20 So far I could put together a group of lute, Violin, cello and flute, = it might be fun. Thanks, Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html CONFIDENTIALITY : This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
My view is that it is most likely a guitar (or rather late 19thC german lute/guitar) conversion direct from a lute. There are numerous examples of 18thC Colachons/mandoras (see Gill et als) and leaving aside the obvious guitar conversion features (eg bridge, rose) it looks pretty atypical (eg very sloping shoulders). It cld be that the back (with label) is the only original feature; if the whole thing isn't a fake, - but was Hofmann ever faked as the earlier Italian makers were (by Francolini and others)? Was he famous enough to capture the fanciful imagination of 19th/20thC Museum curators? Martyn Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems to be A MANDORA, but the top is not original, was made into a guitar. RT http://polyhymnion.org From: Hans Kockelmans A strange lute by Joh Christian Hoffmann, 1733 for sale. What could it be? A colascione? http://www.music-treasures.com/ click on ANTIQUE MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS 1595 - 1930 and then baroque lute. H. ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 120MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --
Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
My view is that it is most likely a guitar (or rather late 19thC german lute/guitar) conversion direct from a lute. There are numerous examples of 18thC Colachons/mandoras (see Gill et als) and leaving aside the obvious guitar conversion features (eg bridge, rose) it looks pretty atypical (eg very sloping shoulders). I would have thought so, if not for the pegbox, which is rather elegant, and entirely uncharacteristic of the Wandervogels. RT RT Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seems to be A MANDORA, but the top is not original, was made into a guitar. RT http://polyhymnion.org From: Hans Kockelmans A strange lute by Joh Christian Hoffmann, 1733 for sale. What could it be? A colascione? http://www.music-treasures.com/ click on ANTIQUE MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS 1595 - 1930 and then baroque lute. H. ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 120MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 120MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
Greensleeves
Dear Collected Wisdom, I turn to you once again after long silence, mainly dictated by my total ignorance of much of what you talk about. I found the 'little finger' discussion most interesting, as I have never come to terms with using it, my fingers simply being too short to stretch as required when the LF is stuck to the sound board. I do have a question, the old chestnut, I know, but is it known who wrote Greensleeves? Some say Henry VIII, another says Dowland (that one was new to me, not that it signifies a great deal), and other countless candidates have been named. I've looked in Grove, on the web, and asked around, but no one seems to know. I would be grateful for any suggestions, or even the actual composer, if possible. It would be useful as the friend who asked me would, for some obscure reason, like an answer, and I am not able to provide it. Kindest regards Tom Beck -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Hoffmann Mandora/Gallichon
My view is that it is most likely a guitar guitars have shallow bodies, by definition, or so I'm told. Whatsoever this is, it is not a guitar. (or rather late 19thC german lute/guitar) conversion direct from a lute. wandervogel lutes (if that is what you meant to say) have single strings, not courses (i.e. double strings) There are numerous examples of 18thC Colachons/mandoras (see Gill et als) indeed. Why so much guesswork if the probable is so obvious. I would have thought so, if not for the pegbox, which is rather elegant, and entirely uncharacteristic of the Wandervogels. yes, indeed. -- Regards, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Greensleeves
I do have a question, the old chestnut, I know, but is it known who wrote Greensleeves? Some say Henry VIII, another says Dowland (that one was new to me, not that it signifies a great deal), and other countless candidates have been named. I've looked in Grove, on the web, and asked around, but no one seems to know. I would be grateful for any suggestions, or even the actual composer, if possible. It would be useful as the friend who asked me would, for some obscure reason, like an answer, and I am not able to provide it. Kindest regards Tom Beck His name was A(dalbert?) Noney-Moose. He had a farm where Rayne's Park now stands. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Greensleeves
I do have a question, the old chestnut, I know, but is it known who wrote Greensleeves? please specify which one. I've across at least two different tunes or, rather, grounds which bore that name. -- Cheers, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Greensleeves
Hi Mathias, That there are two versions is also news to me. I just know the one that 'everyone' plays, da-di-da didi-da di da, didi-da-di-da didi-da-di-da, etc., that one. If there are two versions, who wrote them, or are they both, as RT wittily suggests, anon? Cheers Tom Beck -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Greensleeves
Roman Turovsky wrote: His name was A(dalbert?) Noney-Moose. He had a farm where Rayne's Park now stands. And here I thought it was Hey Nonny Mouse, but maybe that was the other one? ;-) More seriously, as far as I know the first reference is in the Stationers Register for 1580. There is a version for lute in William Ballet's Lute Book of about the same time. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Greensleeves (fwd)
the second one should read 3 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 3 1 2 2 2 2 43 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 e f e e | d b g a b | c b c c | h g# E || e f e e | d b g a b | c b a g# 1 1 11 1 2 2 2 a b g# | a a e c# a As I said, both are trebles for the passamezzo ground that was popular around 1600. Cheers, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Greensleeves
And then there is one (whatever the meaning of one might be) by Francis Cutting -- Julian Bream plays it on The Woods so Wild sandwiched between da-di-da didi-das; it's in the Noad Renaissance guitar book ... Peter. On 15 Mar 2005, Mathias Rösel wrote: I just know the one that 'everyone' plays, da-di-da didi-da di da, didi-da-di-da didi-da-di-da, etc., that one. I suppose you think of 2 4 2 3 1 2 4 2 4 2 3 1 2 2 2 2 4 2 4 a | c d | e f e | d b | g | a b c | d e c | b g# |E (1 = quaver, 2 = crotchet, 3 = dotted crotchet, 4 = minim) there is another that goes 3 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 3 1 2 2 2 2 43 1 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 11 1 2 2 2 e f e e | d b g a b | c b c c | h g# E || e f e e | d b g a b | c b a g# a b g# | a a e c# a Both are trebles for the passamezzo ground that was popular around 1600. Cheers, Mathias -- the next auto-quote is: I won't undertake war until I have tried all the arts and means of peace. (Rabelais) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
lute STILL for sale, long island area, 8c venere model, plain
My three original respondants all bowed out without seeing the instrument, its a good one folks, honest :-/ NO CASE NO CASE NO CASE NO PHOTOS NO PHOTOS NO PHOTOS MADE BY: Black Bird Music 8c, Venere style, 59 cm string length, gut stringing at a=440 is possible. Currently _strung_ in nylon, new strings would be a good idea. Currently _fretted_ in gut, several are loose, new ones a good idea. Two pegs are replaced using maple (original may have been box). NO CASE, NO PHOTOS. $450 as is, if you pick it up (near Riverhead NY) $500 as is, if I deliver it (NYC area). PLEASE REPLY OFF LIST Sorry, I dont wanna deal with packing it for shipment, so this is gonna be a local sale. I like the lute, hate to have to sell it, but times are tough :-(. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
viola da gamba [OT]
dear lutenetters, on sunday I visited a little castle in Westfalia where surprisingly I found a a small exposition room with musical instruments. (No lute, though.) But something that I would think is a viola da gamba (violoncello size), 7 strings, very nicely decorated with ivory and mother of pearl. It has an additional small soundhole close to the end of the neck above the body, about 4 cm in diameter and decorated like the soundhole of a baroque guitar - this sort of 3D-rose :-) I asked about the possibility of taking a photo. but the guide didn't know whether it is allowed or not (in Germany this means: no). In fact, nobody ever asked about this or the other instruments, he said. Strange enough, because this castle belongs to the family of Bentheim-Tecklenburg, owning a very nice collection of musical scores in Rheda, now in the University library of Münster. Do you have some idea about this sort of instrument? Best regards Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: viola da gamba [OT]
From: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2005 00:03:44 +0100 To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: viola da gamba [OT] dear lutenetters, on sunday I visited a little castle in Westfalia where surprisingly I found a a small exposition room with musical instruments. (No lute, though.) But something that I would think is a viola da gamba (violoncello size), 7 strings, very nicely decorated with ivory and mother of pearl. It has an additional small soundhole close to the end of the neck above the body, about 4 cm in diameter and decorated like the soundhole of a baroque guitar - this sort of 3D-rose :-) I asked about the possibility of taking a photo. but the guide didn't know whether it is allowed or not (in Germany this means: no). In fact, nobody ever asked about this or the other instruments, he said. Strange enough, because this castle belongs to the family of Bentheim-Tecklenburg, owning a very nice collection of musical scores in Rheda, now in the University library of Münster. Do you have some idea about this sort of instrument? Best regards Bernd Hi Bernd; The rosette feature is common to Austrian viols (at least), and it helps trace the lineage back to the plucked waist-cut viola-bodied lutes of the late 1400's. If it's 7 string it's probably late 1600's. 7 string viols were commonly tuned 444344 (depending on how you want to see it; is standard six string guitar tuning 44434 on the lower 6 strings, or classic 44344 lute tuning on the upper 6 with an added lower string in a 4th relationship) here's a group photo of similar instruments, all Austrian, in 6 string, at Orpheon: http://www.mdw.ac.at/I105/orpheon/Fotos/Fotos-Events/VdgPanoramaA2.jpg here's an assortment of pictures somewhat chronologically tracing the line (with pierced rosette sound-hole) back to the late 1400's. Some 4 and 5 course lutes (both bowl-back and viola-bodied) of late 1400s had a large central rosette plus one or two smaller diamond or lancet shaped rosettes closer to the neck. Many viols had either just a rosette or some combination of rosette and C, F, or flame-arabesque holes: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/historypics/lucy2.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viola-guitar-angels.jpg (late 1400's) http://www.TheCipher.com/viol_TimoteoViti_c1500Madonna-italy.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viola-guitar-valencia14xx.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/LuteViolGuitarFamily_SVirdung1511.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viol_CrispinDePasse16thDutch.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viola-bowed_ReneIIc1490French-bw.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viol-guitar_GonesseOrgan_detail.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/viol_musscher-sm.jpg http://www.TheCipher.com/Violboy_tempel-1671-24ksm.jpg so you did in fact see a lute -- a bowed lute that is ;') Roger To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
