[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Josh Winters]

It cut off both of these links, you may have to cut and paste the entire
thing. Sorry

-Original Message-
From: Josh Winters [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:47 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco

Are these related at all to the books you are talking about? There is
only 1 of each.

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Francesco-Canova-Milano-1497-1543/dp/B000OV6
C34/ref=sr_1_5/102-1000265-5229764?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178062840&sr=8-5

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Francesco-Canova-Milano-1497-1543/dp/0674539
559/ref=sr_1_3/102-1000265-5229764?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178062840&sr=8-3





-Original Message-
From: Andrew White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:08 PM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco

There is a few here also

http://web.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Milano/pdf/

On 02/05/2007, at 7:51 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote:

> As said earlier the Ness edition is a scholarly edition. Pieces  
> sometimes
> have variant readings - from different sources - for passages. This is
> hugely important to to be aware of,  but doesn't make the music
> straightforwardly playable .
>
> Are you researching Francesco or looking for pieces to play?
>
> The Lute Society (in Britain) have been issuing Francesco pieces  
> with their
> Lute News. You could join that.
>
> And there's:
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?F_da_Milano
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Josh Winters]

Are these related at all to the books you are talking about? There is
only 1 of each.

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Francesco-Canova-Milano-1497-1543/dp/B000OV6
C34/ref=sr_1_5/102-1000265-5229764?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178062840&sr=8-5

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Francesco-Canova-Milano-1497-1543/dp/0674539
559/ref=sr_1_3/102-1000265-5229764?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178062840&sr=8-3





-Original Message-
From: Andrew White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:08 PM
To: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco

There is a few here also

http://web.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Milano/pdf/

On 02/05/2007, at 7:51 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote:

> As said earlier the Ness edition is a scholarly edition. Pieces  
> sometimes
> have variant readings - from different sources - for passages. This is
> hugely important to to be aware of,  but doesn't make the music
> straightforwardly playable .
>
> Are you researching Francesco or looking for pieces to play?
>
> The Lute Society (in Britain) have been issuing Francesco pieces  
> with their
> Lute News. You could join that.
>
> And there's:
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?F_da_Milano
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: Francesco newly discovered?

[D. Franco]

   Does anyone know if more music of Francesco has become discovered like those
   two on the CD by Paul O'Dette in 1994.  This music was discovered in the
   Cathedral Library in the city of Castlefranco, in Italy.  Obviously, Paul
   O'Dette  was  given  the  music to make the recording, but the scholar
   responsible for the publication has dropped the ball.

   Has  other  music of Francesco been discovered since the Ness book was
   published?

   Dennis Franco
   __

 From:  Andrew White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To:  lute list 
 Subject:  [LUTE] Re: Francesco
 Date:  Wed, 2 May 2007 08:07:50 +1000
 >There is a few here also
 >
 >http://web.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Milano/pdf/
 >
 >On 02/05/2007, at 7:51 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote:
 >
 > > As said earlier the Ness edition is a scholarly edition. Pieces
 > > sometimes
 > > have variant readings - from different sources - for passages. This is
 > > hugely important to to be aware of,  but doesn't make the music
 > > straightforwardly playable .
 > >
 > > Are you researching Francesco or looking for pieces to play?
 > >
 > > The Lute Society (in Britain) have been issuing Francesco pieces
 > > with their
 > > Lute News. You could join that.
 > >
 > > And there's:
 > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?F_da_Milano
 > >
 > > --
 > >
 > > To get on or off this list see list information at
 > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >
 >
 >--
 _

   [1]Dont quit your job Take Classes Online and Earn your Degree in 1 year.
   Start Today!

References

   1. http://g.msn.com/8HMBENUS/2743??PS=47575

[LUTE] Re: copy

[Francesco Tribioli]

You can find the music that was in the internet lute society at this
address:

http://www.gerbode.net/

Have fun!

Francesco
 

> -Original Message-
> From: hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:56 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] copy
> 
> anyway...what is copywrighted and what not? I had noticed 
> that the internet lute society is dead and I didn't 
> understand why. I think it was a great source for all sorts 
> of lute players especially beginers or intermediate level 
> (even advanced). Civiol's site is really great. And there are 
> a lot of pieces which are played on many great recordings, 
> and are superbly edited. ANd there are a few sites very 
> interesting with lute tablatures including the genial G. 
> Bookshelf. I think that musical notes begin to be important 
> only when there are a lot of recordings of it and concerts, 
> till then are obscure and non important...my opinion!
>   I think a lot about the lute players from Renaissance and 
> Baroque with their books writen by their own hand, I have a 
> few facsimiles, they were playing a very clear repertory, for 
> us is very hard because we have so many things...I have 
> noticed a very interesting thing: some of the greatest lute 
> players in the world are using tablatures transcribed by 
> their own hand, I've try to do this but is very hard to have 
> a nice writing on tablature, but I like the idea in the sense 
> of learning the piece before taking up the lute, and also 
> because all the music in every piece really pass through your 
> fingers. I think the most beautifull thing is that every lute 
> player can go to every library where there are lute 
> tablatures and to copy it by hand, this I would like to do 
> very much, to see the original, to feel it and to make my own 
> version of every one of it.
> 
>
> -
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>  Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Andrew White]

There is a few here also

http://web.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Milano/pdf/

On 02/05/2007, at 7:51 AM, Stuart Walsh wrote:

> As said earlier the Ness edition is a scholarly edition. Pieces  
> sometimes
> have variant readings - from different sources - for passages. This is
> hugely important to to be aware of,  but doesn't make the music
> straightforwardly playable .
>
> Are you researching Francesco or looking for pieces to play?
>
> The Lute Society (in Britain) have been issuing Francesco pieces  
> with their
> Lute News. You could join that.
>
> And there's:
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?F_da_Milano
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] copy

[hera caius]

anyway...what is copywrighted and what not? I had noticed that the internet 
lute society is dead and I didn't understand why. I think it was a great source 
for all sorts of lute players especially beginers or intermediate level (even 
advanced). Civiol's site is really great. And there are a lot of pieces which 
are played on many great recordings, and are superbly edited. ANd there are a 
few sites very interesting with lute tablatures including the genial G. 
Bookshelf. I think that musical notes begin to be important only when there are 
a lot of recordings of it and concerts, till then are obscure and non 
important...my opinion!
  I think a lot about the lute players from Renaissance and Baroque with their 
books writen by their own hand, I have a few facsimiles, they were playing a 
very clear repertory, for us is very hard because we have so many things...I 
have noticed a very interesting thing: some of the greatest lute players in the 
world are using tablatures transcribed by their own hand, I've try to do this 
but is very hard to have a nice writing on tablature, but I like the idea in 
the sense of learning the piece before taking up the lute, and also because all 
the music in every piece really pass through your fingers. I think the most 
beautifull thing is that every lute player can go to every library where there 
are lute tablatures and to copy it by hand, this I would like to do very much, 
to see the original, to feel it and to make my own version of every one of it.

   
-
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Stuart Walsh]

As said earlier the Ness edition is a scholarly edition. Pieces sometimes
have variant readings - from different sources - for passages. This is
hugely important to to be aware of,  but doesn't make the music
straightforwardly playable .

Are you researching Francesco or looking for pieces to play?

The Lute Society (in Britain) have been issuing Francesco pieces with their
Lute News. You could join that.

And there's:
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?F_da_Milano

--

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Mayes, Joseph]

I guess my point is that if you can "always take the little finger up" what's 
it there for? 
 
Let's talk about evidence: I have bought and sold many a lute, vihuela, ren. 
guitar, archlute, etc. over the years and have always seen the "little finger 
smudge." However, when observing instruments in museums, it is almost 
universally absent. Do you think the old guys had cleaner fingers?
 
I think you're right about the "traditional" classical right hand, but it's 
based on the same sort of fallacy that I believe drives the current thumb under 
pinky down movement - the heroes do it that way. 
 
Joseph Mayes 



From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue 5/1/2007 1:54 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question



On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 09:04 America/Los_Angeles, Joseph Mayes
wrote:

>
> 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical guitar" I
> have
> heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical
> guitarists
> do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing perpendicular to
> the
> strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also hurts. We
> do
> not do it! Haven't for years and years.

Really?  These seem pretty perpendicular:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d-5gCGlYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po2uaa0IVes&mode=related&search
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPP0_va2krc

> There is no reason
> that anyone has explained to me, for having the little finger anywhere
> near
> the belly

It orients the hand.  I suppose the theory is that the hand has to be
so close to the soundboard anyway that it makes sense to rest it there.
  I'm pretty lax about my own little finger on the soundboard, but when
I find my tone getting nasty, the first thing I do to fix it is put the
little finger down.

>  I think it's a holdover from
> books advising complete beginners.

The evidence is to the contrary.  We know that big-league players
rested the little finger on the soundboard, and some of them rested the
third finger as well.

> There are pretty good reasons against it
> - like the fact that it cripples the ring finger.

I don't know a lot of lute players with crippled ring fingers.  (I
suppose if you spend a lot of time playing the Tarrega Estudio
Brillante with the pinky on the soundboard, you might develop
problems).  My unscientific impression is that classical guitarists are
more likely to hurt themselves trying to develop independence of motion
in third fingers that don't naturally have much independence of motion.

The only "good reason against it" would be that it prevents you from
doing something you actually want to do.  On the whole, it doesn't.  If
you need to play rapid arpeggios with the thumb and three fingers (in
which case you might be approaching the music with anachronistic
expectations), you can always pick the little finger up.

HP



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--

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[roman turovsky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timisoara



Do you believe the Romanians have become affluent overnight?
RT



- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 

Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Francesco



On 5/1/2007, "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That might not work in Transylvania.
> RT

Well, I made the googling by "transylvania university" and got
something really very not transylvanian. Crazy, very crazy, perhaps even
insulting? Perhaps not? Anyhow they wrote in their page: "Our
Transylvania is a friendly, top-notch liberal arts college located in
Kentucky's beautiful Bluegrass region-not the region of dark castles and
vampires in Romania. Even so, we have fun with our name."

Anyhow there are several universities in Romania, and I suppose they have
the interloan(?) system working. Romania is even in the EU nowadays,
did you know that, Roman?  ;-)

All the best,

Arto

> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Dear hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >> does anyone knows a place on the internet where I can find a complete
> >> edition of Francesco da Milano's work by NessDownloadable...free
> >
> > Many University libraries have the wonderfull Ness edition of Francesco.
> > And there is also the "distant loan"(?) system at least in European
> > universities,
> > if your nearest Univ. doesn't happen to have the book.
> >
> > All the best and good luck,
> >
> > Arto
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>

[LUTE] Re: thanks

[wikla]

On 5/1/2007, "hera caius" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you all,
>   I'm not living in Transilvania (Roman), It doesn't exist...
>   But I'm living in a place somehow hostile to early music which had not give 
> anithing big in this area but we have a great lute player, a guy 
> named Valentin Greff Bakfark.
>   Anyway in our librairies in all the cities from Romania you can find I 
> think maibe max. 10 books...so that's why I was looking for a place to 
> download on the net.

Well, just get in to your nearest university library, and tell them you
want to interloan the wonderful Ness' book. If they do not know, from
where, tell them that at least Helsinki University Library has it. If
they do not know the system - interloan(?) - tell them they have to find
it out rapidly, or othewise you will tell to the Bruxelles... ;-)

Good luck!

Arto



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[LUTE] thanks

[hera caius]

Thank you all,
  I'm not living in Transilvania (Roman), It doesn't exist...
  But I'm living in a place somehow hostile to early music which had not give 
anithing big in this area but we have a great lute player, a guy named 
Valentin Greff Bakfark.
  Anyway in our librairies in all the cities from Romania you can find I think 
maibe max. 10 books...so that's why I was looking for a place to download on 
the net...

   
-
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[wikla]

On 5/1/2007, "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That might not work in Transylvania.
> RT

Well, I made the googling by "transylvania university" and got
something really very not transylvanian. Crazy, very crazy, perhaps even
insulting? Perhaps not? Anyhow they wrote in their page: "Our
Transylvania is a friendly, top-notch liberal arts college located in
Kentucky’s beautiful Bluegrass region—not the region of dark castles and
vampires in Romania. Even so, we have fun with our name."

Anyhow there are several universities in Romania, and I suppose they have
the interloan(?) system working. Romania is even in the EU nowadays, 
did you know that, Roman?  ;-)

All the best,

Arto

> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Dear hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >> does anyone knows a place on the internet where I can find a complete
> >> edition of Francesco da Milano's work by NessDownloadable...free
> >
> > Many University libraries have the wonderfull Ness edition of Francesco.
> > And there is also the "distant loan"(?) system at least in European
> > universities,
> > if your nearest Univ. doesn't happen to have the book.
> >
> > All the best and good luck,
> >
> > Arto
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> 

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Roman Turovsky]

That might not work in Transylvania.
RT


From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Dear hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
>> does anyone knows a place on the internet where I can find a complete
>> edition of Francesco da Milano's work by NessDownloadable...free
> 
> Many University libraries have the wonderfull Ness edition of Francesco.
> And there is also the "distant loan"(?) system at least in European
> universities,
> if your nearest Univ. doesn't happen to have the book.
> 
> All the best and good luck,
> 
> Arto
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[wikla]

Dear hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> does anyone knows a place on the internet where I can find a complete
> edition of Francesco da Milano's work by NessDownloadable...free

Many University libraries have the wonderfull Ness edition of Francesco.
And there is also the "distant loan"(?) system at least in European
universities,
if your nearest Univ. doesn't happen to have the book.

All the best and good luck,

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 3:32 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 12:26 America/Los_Angeles, EUGENE 
> BRAIG IV 
> wrote:
> 
> > Even if rather small, I'd wager the fingers will be at enough of 
> an 
> > angle to incorporate some flesh in the stroke.
> 
> You seem a bit defensive about your lack of size...

Only of my "angle."  ...And I suppose I should admit preference for mandolino 
over chitarrone.

Best,
Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Howard Posner]

On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 12:26 America/Los_Angeles, EUGENE BRAIG IV 
wrote:

> Even if rather small, I'd wager the fingers will be at enough of an 
> angle to incorporate some flesh in the stroke.

You seem a bit defensive about your lack of size...



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 3:08 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> >   The operative phrase in Joseph's statement was "Classical 
> guitarists 
> > do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists."
> 
> Ah... I should have known that "Playing perpendicular to the 
> strings is 
> a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone" was an inoperative 
> statement. 
>  Thanks.

Even if rather small, I'd wager the fingers will be at enough of an angle to 
incorporate some flesh in the stroke.  Still, I see your point; obviously, 
universal statements should always be avoided, always!

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Rick Teichler]

Speaking as another beginning lute player, with absolutely no academic 
credentials to back up my hypothesis, I think we tend to over-think the 
pinky question.

I play an 8-course lute (thank you, Dan Larson) which fits comfortably 
in my lap.  Placing it in my lap with no friction pad to keep it from 
sliding around, it naturally tends to slip into a position of back down 
and strings up.  An occasional touch of the pinky on the soundboard just 
below the strings keeps things arranged the way we want.  The flat sides 
and waist of a guitar prevent this rolling-over problem.

Practical solutions rapidly become habits, and habits sometimes become 
enshrined as traditions. 

Regards,
Rick Teichler



Robert Margo wrote:
> I'm a classical guitarist of some 30 years experience (amateur, but play at
> an advanced level) who recently switched more or less completely to
> Renaissance lute which I play thumb-under in the conventional manner.  It
> took a little while but I am fortunate to have an excellent teacher
> (Catherine Liddell) as well as the fact that I play mandolin, i.e. a
> plectrum, and so the right forearm motion necessary to thumb-under was not a
> problem.
>
> Mr. Mayes' observation about the rh pinky raises an interesting hypothesis
> but I believe that the extant evidence from the period is that the best
> players did play with the pinky on the belly. I know of no modern controlled
> experiment comparing the two possibilities (free rh hand versus
> conventional) and find it difficult to imagine such an experiment (Bream,
> who played the lute using what appears to me to be the same rh position as
> he used to play guitar, is obviously not a controlled experiment).  I
> personally do not find the conventional thumb under to be a problem in using
> the ring finger when playing, say, early 16th century Italian music or, for
> that matter, Dowland.
>
> Mr. Mayes' remark reminds me of a recent review in Soundboard magazine of a
> performance by Bob Barto at the Guitar Foundation of Amerca convention.  The
> reviewer was astounded by the fluency of Barto's performance, especially
> since, according to the reviewer, he used what the reviewer thought was
> an outmoded right hand position -- i.e. conventional Baroque lute right hand
> technique.
>
> Robert Margo
>
>
> On 5/1/07, Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> OK
>>I guess it's time I had my little say.
>>
>>I am a Classicql guitarist who plays a bit of lute.
>>
>>The false impressions I need to correct in Chris' e-mail are:1.
>> Classical guitar technique is "counter-intuitive." Actually, if you don't
>> make any adjustments to the hand at all when approaching the guitar, you
>> will have a pretty good position.
>>
>> 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical guitar" I have
>> heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical
>> guitarists
>> do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing perpendicular to the
>> strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also hurts. We do
>> not do it! Haven't for years and years.
>>
>>In the last PO masterclass I attended, there was much discussion about
>> how to cope with the little finger on the belly when changing right hand
>> positions - that is: going from bass notes to treble. There is no reason
>> that anyone has explained to me, for having the little finger anywhere
>> near
>> the belly (Blasphemy - here come the flames) I think it's a holdover from
>> books advising complete beginners. There are pretty good reasons against
>> it
>> - like the fact that it cripples the ring finger. If you don't know where
>> the belly is after playing a month or two...
>>
>>The evolution of right hand technique seems to have gone: plectrum -
>> thumb under - thumb out.
>>
>> Joseph Mayes
>>
>>
>> On 5/1/07 9:54 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> --- John Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>   
 I feel like I'm having to unlearn all my 'good'
 guitar habits!
 
>>> Yes, its a different approach.  Ironically, though,
>>> throughout the guitar's history, much right hand
>>> technique shared a lot in common with the lute
>>> technique you're learning now.  It was largely due to
>>> Segovia's efforts in the early 20th century that we
>>> arrived at the modern, largely counter-intuitive, way
>>> of playing classical guitar.  (Then again, the modern,
>>> nylon-strung instrument is quite different than
>>> guitars of ages past.)  In other words, if you
>>> seriously pursue thumb-under, you will find that
>>> you'll re-think the way you play Sor or Giuliani -
>>> probably for the better.
>>>
>>>   
 I'm just wondering - do any of the sources give a
 reason for this kind
 of thumb technique, or is it just some odd quirk in
 the evolution of
 playing?

 
>>> Thumb-under playing was derived from playing with a
>>> plectrum.  Instead of up-and-down strokes, you 

[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Howard Posner]

>   The operative phrase in Joseph's statement was "Classical guitarists 
> do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists."

Ah... I should have known that "Playing perpendicular to the strings is 
a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone" was an inoperative statement. 
  Thanks.

Cordially,

Ronald Ziegler



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: EUGENE BRAIG IV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 2:45 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> - Original Message -
> From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:54 pm
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question
> 
> > On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 09:04 America/Los_Angeles, Joseph 
> > Mayes 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical 
> > guitar" I 
> > > have
> > > heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! 
> Classical 
> > > guitarists
> > > do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing 
> > perpendicular to 
> > > the
> > > strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also 
> > hurts. We 
> > > do
> > > not do it! Haven't for years and years.
> > 
> > Really?  These seem pretty perpendicular:
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d-5gCGlYg
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po2uaa0IVes&mode=related&search=
> > 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPP0_va2krc
> 
> These approach perpendicular through holding the guitar at angle.  
> Note the line from wrist into phalanges is parallel or nearly so 
> in all these videos.  The operative phrase in Joseph's statement 
> was "Classical guitarists do not - repeat do not - bend their 
> wrists."  For the short-lived and almost entirely outmoded 
> approach, see:
> <" target="l">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_T%C3%A1rrega>

Or, since I'm away from e-mail software and my server doesn't translate the 
accents, try .

Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Howard Posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:54 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

> On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 09:04 America/Los_Angeles, Joseph 
> Mayes 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical 
> guitar" I 
> > have
> > heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical 
> > guitarists
> > do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing 
> perpendicular to 
> > the
> > strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also 
> hurts. We 
> > do
> > not do it! Haven't for years and years.
> 
> Really?  These seem pretty perpendicular:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d-5gCGlYg
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po2uaa0IVes&mode=related&search=
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPP0_va2krc

These approach perpendicular through holding the guitar at angle.  Note the 
line from wrist into phalanges is parallel or nearly so in all these videos.  
The operative phrase in Joseph's statement was "Classical guitarists do not - 
repeat do not - bend their wrists."  For the short-lived and almost entirely 
outmoded approach, see:


Eugene



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[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Roman Turovsky]

Caius,
A good idea is to start here
http://www.xs4all.nl/~paulduif/luth-librairie/
RT




- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute net" 

Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 2:32 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco


> Denys,
> With all due respect to Arthur-
> Mr. Hera lives in a place where such thing are not available in any
> commercial format and anyway cannot be afforded at the prices that that 
> you
> are accustomed to in your UK comfort.
> Therefore any sharing of the material in question would be highly
> commendable.
> RT
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "lute net" 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 2:28 PM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco
>
>
>>
>> Dear Hera,
>> I am assuming that this is a real question!
>> You need to be aware that the Ness edition of Francesco
>> da Milano is subject to copyright and that it's not available
>> in an electronic format.As it's one of the most
>> important volumes of lute scholarship of modern
>> times, those of us that own copies of it are
>> glad to have paid for it. The question you need
>> to ask is where and how to buy a copy - I'm sure
>> that there are lots of people on the list who would
>> help you with that. Not the least of which would
>> be Arthur Ness himself, who is one of our most
>> respected contributors here.
>>
>> best wishes,
>>
>> Denys
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: 01 May 2007 17:19
>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Subject: [LUTE] Francesco
>>
>> does anyone knows a place on the internet where I can find a complete
>> edition of Francesco da Milano's work by NessDownloadable...free
>>
>> -
>> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
>> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
>> --
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> 




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[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Roman Turovsky]

Denys,
With all due respect to Arthur-
Mr. Hera lives in a place where such thing are not available in any 
commercial format and anyway cannot be afforded at the prices that that you 
are accustomed to in your UK comfort.
Therefore any sharing of the material in question would be highly 
commendable.
RT

- Original Message - 
From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "lute net" 
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 2:28 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco


>
> Dear Hera,
> I am assuming that this is a real question!
> You need to be aware that the Ness edition of Francesco
> da Milano is subject to copyright and that it's not available
> in an electronic format.As it's one of the most
> important volumes of lute scholarship of modern
> times, those of us that own copies of it are
> glad to have paid for it. The question you need
> to ask is where and how to buy a copy - I'm sure
> that there are lots of people on the list who would
> help you with that. Not the least of which would
> be Arthur Ness himself, who is one of our most
> respected contributors here.
>
> best wishes,
>
> Denys
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 01 May 2007 17:19
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Francesco
>
> does anyone knows a place on the internet where I can find a complete
> edition of Francesco da Milano's work by NessDownloadable...free
>
> -
> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> 

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Josh Winters]

-Original Message-
From: Denys Stephens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:28 AM
To: lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco 


"As it's one of the most important volumes of lute scholarship of modern
times"




That sounds like something I'd like to hear. Where might I purchase it
myself?

Thanks,

Josh



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Francesco

[Denys Stephens]

Dear Hera,
I am assuming that this is a real question!
You need to be aware that the Ness edition of Francesco 
da Milano is subject to copyright and that it's not available 
in an electronic format.As it's one of the most
important volumes of lute scholarship of modern
times, those of us that own copies of it are
glad to have paid for it. The question you need
to ask is where and how to buy a copy - I'm sure
that there are lots of people on the list who would
help you with that. Not the least of which would
be Arthur Ness himself, who is one of our most
respected contributors here.

best wishes,

Denys 



-Original Message-
From: hera caius [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 01 May 2007 17:19
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Francesco 

does anyone knows a place on the internet where I can find a complete
edition of Francesco da Milano's work by NessDownloadable...free
   
-
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Robert Margo]

I'm a classical guitarist of some 30 years experience (amateur, but play at
an advanced level) who recently switched more or less completely to
Renaissance lute which I play thumb-under in the conventional manner.  It
took a little while but I am fortunate to have an excellent teacher
(Catherine Liddell) as well as the fact that I play mandolin, i.e. a
plectrum, and so the right forearm motion necessary to thumb-under was not a
problem.

Mr. Mayes' observation about the rh pinky raises an interesting hypothesis
but I believe that the extant evidence from the period is that the best
players did play with the pinky on the belly. I know of no modern controlled
experiment comparing the two possibilities (free rh hand versus
conventional) and find it difficult to imagine such an experiment (Bream,
who played the lute using what appears to me to be the same rh position as
he used to play guitar, is obviously not a controlled experiment).  I
personally do not find the conventional thumb under to be a problem in using
the ring finger when playing, say, early 16th century Italian music or, for
that matter, Dowland.

Mr. Mayes' remark reminds me of a recent review in Soundboard magazine of a
performance by Bob Barto at the Guitar Foundation of Amerca convention.  The
reviewer was astounded by the fluency of Barto's performance, especially
since, according to the reviewer, he used what the reviewer thought was
an outmoded right hand position -- i.e. conventional Baroque lute right hand
technique.

Robert Margo


On 5/1/07, Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> OK
>I guess it's time I had my little say.
>
>I am a Classicql guitarist who plays a bit of lute.
>
>The false impressions I need to correct in Chris' e-mail are:1.
> Classical guitar technique is "counter-intuitive." Actually, if you don't
> make any adjustments to the hand at all when approaching the guitar, you
> will have a pretty good position.
>
> 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical guitar" I have
> heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical
> guitarists
> do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing perpendicular to the
> strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also hurts. We do
> not do it! Haven't for years and years.
>
>In the last PO masterclass I attended, there was much discussion about
> how to cope with the little finger on the belly when changing right hand
> positions - that is: going from bass notes to treble. There is no reason
> that anyone has explained to me, for having the little finger anywhere
> near
> the belly (Blasphemy - here come the flames) I think it's a holdover from
> books advising complete beginners. There are pretty good reasons against
> it
> - like the fact that it cripples the ring finger. If you don't know where
> the belly is after playing a month or two...
>
>The evolution of right hand technique seems to have gone: plectrum -
> thumb under - thumb out.
>
> Joseph Mayes
>
>
> On 5/1/07 9:54 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > --- John Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> I feel like I'm having to unlearn all my 'good'
> >> guitar habits!
> >
> > Yes, its a different approach.  Ironically, though,
> > throughout the guitar's history, much right hand
> > technique shared a lot in common with the lute
> > technique you're learning now.  It was largely due to
> > Segovia's efforts in the early 20th century that we
> > arrived at the modern, largely counter-intuitive, way
> > of playing classical guitar.  (Then again, the modern,
> > nylon-strung instrument is quite different than
> > guitars of ages past.)  In other words, if you
> > seriously pursue thumb-under, you will find that
> > you'll re-think the way you play Sor or Giuliani -
> > probably for the better.
> >
> >> I'm just wondering - do any of the sources give a
> >> reason for this kind
> >> of thumb technique, or is it just some odd quirk in
> >> the evolution of
> >> playing?
> >>
> > Thumb-under playing was derived from playing with a
> > plectrum.  Instead of up-and-down strokes, you now
> > have index ("up") and thumb ("down").  You also have
> > the other fingers for playing chords on non-adjacent
> > strings and seperate voice-lines.  When I was first
> > dealing with thumb-under, I would occasionally take
> > time out and actually try playing my pieces with a
> > pick.  This seemed to help when I would go back to
> > thumb-under fingerstyle.
> >
> > Another thing that really helped my was to imagine
> > reaching out and shaking hands with someone.  Your
> > forearm will actually be coming in nearly
> > perpendicular to the bridge.  (I seem to remember
> > Poulton recommending placing the pinky on the bridge,
> > which would make this impossible.  This works for
> > later music, but for the "classic" thumb-under
> > position, it would be better to place your picky a
> > little behind the rose, almost parallel to the
> > strings.)  Again,

[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Howard Posner]

On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 09:04 America/Los_Angeles, Joseph Mayes 
wrote:

>
> 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical guitar" I 
> have
> heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical 
> guitarists
> do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing perpendicular to 
> the
> strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also hurts. We 
> do
> not do it! Haven't for years and years.

Really?  These seem pretty perpendicular:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8d-5gCGlYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po2uaa0IVes&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPP0_va2krc

> There is no reason
> that anyone has explained to me, for having the little finger anywhere 
> near
> the belly

It orients the hand.  I suppose the theory is that the hand has to be 
so close to the soundboard anyway that it makes sense to rest it there. 
  I'm pretty lax about my own little finger on the soundboard, but when 
I find my tone getting nasty, the first thing I do to fix it is put the 
little finger down.

>  I think it's a holdover from
> books advising complete beginners.

The evidence is to the contrary.  We know that big-league players 
rested the little finger on the soundboard, and some of them rested the 
third finger as well.

> There are pretty good reasons against it
> - like the fact that it cripples the ring finger.

I don't know a lot of lute players with crippled ring fingers.  (I 
suppose if you spend a lot of time playing the Tarrega Estudio 
Brillante with the pinky on the soundboard, you might develop 
problems).  My unscientific impression is that classical guitarists are 
more likely to hurt themselves trying to develop independence of motion 
in third fingers that don't naturally have much independence of motion.

The only "good reason against it" would be that it prevents you from 
doing something you actually want to do.  On the whole, it doesn't.  If 
you need to play rapid arpeggios with the thumb and three fingers (in 
which case you might be approaching the music with anachronistic 
expectations), you can always pick the little finger up.

HP



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[LUTE] stolen lutes

[Wayne Cripps]

Hello -

 I just hear that Ron Andrico had three lutes stolen in
Cleveland very recently..

 1)  8-course lute by Robert Lundberg; Frei body and 61cm string length
 pitched  in  G, yew bowl and a very worn extra-wide fingerboard.  This
 lute has an internally mounted pickup with a jack in the endpin.

 2) 11-course lute by Stephen Barber & Sandi Harris; Frei body and 67.5
 cm  string length, currently strung as a ten-course lute in old tuning
 at the pitch of E.

 3)  6-course  lute by Sandi Harris & Stephen Barber; Warwick Frei body
 and  72 cm string length pitched at E.  This instrument is pictured in
 a few places on Stephen & Sandi's web site.

If you hear anything about these instruments please contact Ron!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Wayne




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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[David Rastall]

On May 1, 2007, at 11:42 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:

> May I ask you whether you use both techniques on the same piece, for
> a special effect, or only when you change music types (eg music
> before 1600 thumb-in, Post 1600, Dowland and those that follow, thumb-
> out)?

Sometimes I'll slip my thumb behind my fingers when playing 10-course  
music (Ballard, Kapsberger etc.).  But I would never change to thumb- 
out in a "thumb-under piece" (to me, Capirola, Spinacino, Francesco  
etc. from the early 1500's are all "thumb-under pieces").  It seems  
as though it would break up the polyphony to suddenly introduce a  
more piercing note, whereas to introduce a sweeter sound now and  
again is not such a bad thing.

> Was the change gradual and not deliberate (determined by the
> increase in the number of strings) or sudden?

Don't know.  It seems quite sudden in the iconography.  The change in  
the paintings seems to happen around 1600.

> If it was gradual, I suppose some performer composers may have varied
> between both styles, according to the type of piece they were playing.
> Would Dowland have still used thumb in for Variations, for example?

Good question!  I think historical observations work both ways:  we  
can be informed about what they used to do by looking at what we do  
today...  Sometimes anyway.

Regards,

David Rastall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[EUGENE BRAIG IV]

- Original Message -
From: Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 12:04 pm
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question
 
> 2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical guitar" I have
> heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical 
> guitaristsdo not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing  
> perpendicular to the strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. 
> It also hurts. We do not do it! Haven't for years and years.

Indeed.  That was a short, strange period championed by Tarrega and Segovia.  I 
think the last publicly visible hold out for that awkward effort (essentially 
an effort to balance tone by putting every finger at an identical attack angle) 
is Oscar Ghiglia.

Eugene



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[LUTE] Francesco

[hera caius]

does anyone knows a place on the internet where I can find a complete edition 
of Francesco da Milano's work by NessDownloadable...free
   
-
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 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question (fwd)

[Andrew Gibbs]

I've noticed in many paintings of renasssance lutes that the left  
hand thumb is protruding above the neck. But I've never seen a modern  
lute player do this...

Andrew

On 1 May 2007, at 16:58, Wayne Cripps wrote:

>
> Hi Anthony -
>
>  If you look at my web page of pictures of lute players,
> which is arranged chronologically,
>
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/1500.html
>
>  you will see that the angle of the forearm prograssed
> slowly in time (from 1500 to 1600) like the hand on
> a clock.  From 8:00 to noon.  When playing a small instrument with
> a plectrum, or even with fingers, the forearm is angled
> low to hold the instrument.
>
>   Other web pages of old paintings of lute players tend
> to not be arranged by the date, and so you may miss this
> transition if you are not careful to look for it.
>
>   Wayne
>
>
>
>> From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question
>>
>> May I ask you whether you use both techniques on the same piece, for
>> a special effect, or only when you change music types (eg music
>> before 1600 thumb-in, Post 1600, Dowland and those that follow,  
>> thumb-
>> out)? Was the change gradual and not deliberate (determined by the
>> increase in the number of strings) or sudden?
>> If it was gradual, I suppose some performer composers may have varied
>> between both styles, according to the type of piece they were  
>> playing.
>> Would Dowland have still used thumb in for Variations, for example?
>> regards
>> Anthony
>>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Joseph Mayes]

OK
I guess it's time I had my little say.

I am a Classicql guitarist who plays a bit of lute.

The false impressions I need to correct in Chris' e-mail are:1.
Classical guitar technique is "counter-intuitive." Actually, if you don't
make any adjustments to the hand at all when approaching the guitar, you
will have a pretty good position.

2. "...bend your wrist too much like playing the classical guitar" I have
heard, and continue to hear this stated - it ain't so! Classical guitarists
do not - repeat do not - bend their wrists. Playing perpendicular to the
strings is a sure way to produce a thin, naily tone. It also hurts. We do
not do it! Haven't for years and years.

In the last PO masterclass I attended, there was much discussion about
how to cope with the little finger on the belly when changing right hand
positions - that is: going from bass notes to treble. There is no reason
that anyone has explained to me, for having the little finger anywhere near
the belly (Blasphemy - here come the flames) I think it's a holdover from
books advising complete beginners. There are pretty good reasons against it
- like the fact that it cripples the ring finger. If you don't know where
the belly is after playing a month or two...

The evolution of right hand technique seems to have gone: plectrum -
thumb under - thumb out.

Joseph Mayes


On 5/1/07 9:54 AM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> --- John Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I feel like I'm having to unlearn all my 'good'
>> guitar habits!
> 
> Yes, its a different approach.  Ironically, though,
> throughout the guitar's history, much right hand
> technique shared a lot in common with the lute
> technique you're learning now.  It was largely due to
> Segovia's efforts in the early 20th century that we
> arrived at the modern, largely counter-intuitive, way
> of playing classical guitar.  (Then again, the modern,
> nylon-strung instrument is quite different than
> guitars of ages past.)  In other words, if you
> seriously pursue thumb-under, you will find that
> you'll re-think the way you play Sor or Giuliani -
> probably for the better.
>  
>> I'm just wondering - do any of the sources give a
>> reason for this kind
>> of thumb technique, or is it just some odd quirk in
>> the evolution of
>> playing?
>> 
> Thumb-under playing was derived from playing with a
> plectrum.  Instead of up-and-down strokes, you now
> have index ("up") and thumb ("down").  You also have
> the other fingers for playing chords on non-adjacent
> strings and seperate voice-lines.  When I was first
> dealing with thumb-under, I would occasionally take
> time out and actually try playing my pieces with a
> pick.  This seemed to help when I would go back to
> thumb-under fingerstyle.
> 
> Another thing that really helped my was to imagine
> reaching out and shaking hands with someone.  Your
> forearm will actually be coming in nearly
> perpendicular to the bridge.  (I seem to remember
> Poulton recommending placing the pinky on the bridge,
> which would make this impossible.  This works for
> later music, but for the "classic" thumb-under
> position, it would be better to place your picky a
> little behind the rose, almost parallel to the
> strings.)  Again, this is exactly how you would use a
> pick.  Most of your playing motion actually comes from
> the forearm, but, like anything, you don't want to
> overdo it.  A big pitfall is to bend your wrist too
> much, like playing classical fingerstyle.  In that
> school, the idea is to position the fingers
> perpendicular to the strings to assist in playing
> arpeggios.  Note that you rarely have arpeggios in
> renaissance music!  This is music mostly of lines and
> thumb-under is perfect for it.
> 
> It is very awkward at first, but very much worth it of
> the beautiful tone and speed.  Yes, speed!  Once you
> get the hang of it, you'll be able to play scales much
> smoother and faster than the m-i alternation of
> classical guitar.  How cool is _that_?
> 
> I would definately recommend a couple of lessons with
> a teacher, even if you have to travel far.  It would
> be worth the effort to avoid years of frustration.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Chris
> 
> P.S.  By the way, I'm playing mostly baroque music
> nowadays and almost never use thumb-under anymore.
> Learning it helped my with many aspects of my playing
> in all styles, however.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
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> 
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> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question (fwd)

[Wayne Cripps]

Hi Anthony -

 If you look at my web page of pictures of lute players,
which is arranged chronologically, 

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/1500.html

 you will see that the angle of the forearm prograssed
slowly in time (from 1500 to 1600) like the hand on
a clock.  From 8:00 to noon.  When playing a small instrument with
a plectrum, or even with fingers, the forearm is angled
low to hold the instrument.

  Other web pages of old paintings of lute players tend
to not be arranged by the date, and so you may miss this
transition if you are not careful to look for it.

Wayne



> From: Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question
> 
> May I ask you whether you use both techniques on the same piece, for  
> a special effect, or only when you change music types (eg music  
> before 1600 thumb-in, Post 1600, Dowland and those that follow, thumb- 
> out)? Was the change gradual and not deliberate (determined by the  
> increase in the number of strings) or sudden?
> If it was gradual, I suppose some performer composers may have varied  
> between both styles, according to the type of piece they were playing.
> Would Dowland have still used thumb in for Variations, for example?
> regards
> Anthony
> 



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[LUTE] Another beginner's question (fwd)

[Wayne Cripps]

I think that if you get used to the "hand shaking" position, and if
your forearm is almost parallel to the strings, you will find that 
the thumb "bounce" will actually be done by opening and
closing your hand and you will feel comfortable with it
soon.  If you wrist is at a greater angle to the strings, the
"thumb out" position, you may find you have to move your whole
hand to get the thumb to the upper voices, and that won't
be so comfortable!

Wayne

p.s. - as Sean said, the pinky is not planted - it just
rests lightly on the soundboard.



> But what's driven me back to the list is a question about right-hand
> thumb technique.  It feels very odd (and a bit inefficient and
> counter-intuitive)  to have the thumb bouncing around so much, playing a
> base note, then immediately jumping up to the first or second course to
> play one of the melody notes, then down for another bass note, and so on.
> 
> I keep wanting to use my thumb for the bass notes, and my first two
> fingers (guitar style) for the melody line... however, I DO want to
> learn to play the lute 'properly', so I'm going to try to stick with
> it.  But it's driving me crazy!
> 



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Anthony Hind]

David
May I ask you whether you use both techniques on the same piece, for  
a special effect, or only when you change music types (eg music  
before 1600 thumb-in, Post 1600, Dowland and those that follow, thumb- 
out)? Was the change gradual and not deliberate (determined by the  
increase in the number of strings) or sudden?
If it was gradual, I suppose some performer composers may have varied  
between both styles, according to the type of piece they were playing.
Would Dowland have still used thumb in for Variations, for example?
regards
Anthony


Le 1 mai 07 à 16:28, David Rastall a écrit :

> On May 1, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Andrew Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Is it right to think that thumb-out is the historically correct
>> technique for lute music composed post 1600?
>
> Both techniques were in evidence, but thumb-under was predominant:
> it's the best way to play the 16th-century polyphonic music.  As the
> thumb took on a more independent role as the bass player in later
> music, the technique changed accordingly.  I think they were going
> for a different kind of sound with the later music, although thumb-
> under was probably used with "old tuning" by some players all the way
> down to Zamboni.
>
>> Did lute players all
>> over Europe switch to thumb-out around 1600?
>
> Apparently.
>
>> And this might be a
>> silly question: are there any players today who use both techniques:
>> thumb-in for renaissance pieces and thumb-out for baroque?
>
> Not a silly question at all:  I use both techniques.  With thumb-out
> my RH fingers are still extended forward, only not quite so much as
> with thumb-in.
>
>> I am (perhaps overly)
>> concerned with historical correctness.
>
> Nothing wrong with that.  To me, tone quality is also a historical
> consideration:  I think that knowledge of historical techniques is
> important from the point of view of the qualities of tone and
> articulation they produce.
>
> David Rastall
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.rastallmusic.com
>
>
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Howard Posner]

On Tuesday, May 1, 2007, at 03:19 America/Los_Angeles, John Scott wrote:

> do any of the sources give a reason for this kind
> of thumb technique, or is it just some odd quirk in the evolution of
> playing?

I don't know if the sources say why, but it would have been obvious to 
a renaissance-era player: a downstroke with the thumb is going to be 
noticeably stronger than an upstroke with the finger.   This 
strong-weak alternation is essential to the music, just as strong and 
weak syllables are necessary for language to be intellgible (have your 
computer read something aloud to you for ten minutes and you'll see 
what I mean).

HP



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[LUTE] Re: LOTR

[Josh Winters]

Actually, from what I experienced when I played it, all of the
instruments are limited to a very small range of notes. Some of the
instruments are even far out of tune. However, last I heard, they were
going to be revamping that part of the game. I haven't played since
beta. What I do remember though, is that the lute was the best sounding
one available.



-Original Message-
From: Peter Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 12:54 PM
To: Lute list
Subject: [LUTE] LOTR

"Tired of wandering Middle Earth?  Get out the lute and it's an instant
party."

Not being an online gamer myself, I haven't tried the Lute Playing
Gameplay
in Lord of the Rings Online, but I would be intrigued to hear from
anyone
who has.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?r=1&type=wmv&id=19003

P

-- 
Peter Martin
Belle Serre
La Caulie
81100 Castres
France
tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46
e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.silvius.co.uk
http://absolute81.blogspot.com/

--

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[LUTE] Re: vihuela song's concert

[Ariel Abramovich]

   Dear Friends,


   My partner and I we'll be offering a concert in Munich next Thursday, in
   case anyone is nearby.

   Here's the info:

   Donnerstag, 3. Mai 2007, 19:30 Uhr
   Jueves, 3 de mayo de 2007, 19:30h
   Hofkapelle der Residenz


   The program will be an anthology of the 7 vihuela  books.

   Hope to see some of you there.


   Best,


   Ariel.
 _

   Don't just search. Find. [1]MSN Search Check out the new MSN Search!

References

   1. http://g.msn.com/8HMAEN/2749??PS=47575


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[LUTE] lute strings

[hera caius]

I use Savarez for years gut and ny and silver, mostly common. Can anyone tell 
me wich is the best choise of strings, (maker...)and not so expensive (if it's 
not to much).
  Thanks to all

   
-
Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?
 Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--

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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[David Rastall]

On May 1, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Andrew Gibbs wrote:

> Is it right to think that thumb-out is the historically correct
> technique for lute music composed post 1600?

Both techniques were in evidence, but thumb-under was predominant:   
it's the best way to play the 16th-century polyphonic music.  As the  
thumb took on a more independent role as the bass player in later  
music, the technique changed accordingly.  I think they were going  
for a different kind of sound with the later music, although thumb- 
under was probably used with "old tuning" by some players all the way  
down to Zamboni.

> Did lute players all
> over Europe switch to thumb-out around 1600?

Apparently.

> And this might be a
> silly question: are there any players today who use both techniques:
> thumb-in for renaissance pieces and thumb-out for baroque?

Not a silly question at all:  I use both techniques.  With thumb-out  
my RH fingers are still extended forward, only not quite so much as  
with thumb-in.

> I am (perhaps overly)
> concerned with historical correctness.

Nothing wrong with that.  To me, tone quality is also a historical  
consideration:  I think that knowledge of historical techniques is  
important from the point of view of the qualities of tone and  
articulation they produce.

David Rastall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com



--

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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[chriswilke]

--- John Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I feel like I'm having to unlearn all my 'good'
> guitar habits!

Yes, its a different approach.  Ironically, though,
throughout the guitar's history, much right hand
technique shared a lot in common with the lute
technique you're learning now.  It was largely due to
Segovia's efforts in the early 20th century that we
arrived at the modern, largely counter-intuitive, way
of playing classical guitar.  (Then again, the modern,
nylon-strung instrument is quite different than
guitars of ages past.)  In other words, if you
seriously pursue thumb-under, you will find that
you'll re-think the way you play Sor or Giuliani -
probably for the better.
 
> I'm just wondering - do any of the sources give a
> reason for this kind
> of thumb technique, or is it just some odd quirk in
> the evolution of
> playing?
> 
Thumb-under playing was derived from playing with a
plectrum.  Instead of up-and-down strokes, you now
have index ("up") and thumb ("down").  You also have
the other fingers for playing chords on non-adjacent
strings and seperate voice-lines.  When I was first
dealing with thumb-under, I would occasionally take
time out and actually try playing my pieces with a
pick.  This seemed to help when I would go back to
thumb-under fingerstyle.  

Another thing that really helped my was to imagine
reaching out and shaking hands with someone.  Your
forearm will actually be coming in nearly
perpendicular to the bridge.  (I seem to remember
Poulton recommending placing the pinky on the bridge,
which would make this impossible.  This works for
later music, but for the "classic" thumb-under
position, it would be better to place your picky a
little behind the rose, almost parallel to the
strings.)  Again, this is exactly how you would use a
pick.  Most of your playing motion actually comes from
the forearm, but, like anything, you don't want to
overdo it.  A big pitfall is to bend your wrist too
much, like playing classical fingerstyle.  In that
school, the idea is to position the fingers
perpendicular to the strings to assist in playing
arpeggios.  Note that you rarely have arpeggios in
renaissance music!  This is music mostly of lines and
thumb-under is perfect for it.

It is very awkward at first, but very much worth it of
the beautiful tone and speed.  Yes, speed!  Once you
get the hang of it, you'll be able to play scales much
smoother and faster than the m-i alternation of
classical guitar.  How cool is _that_?

I would definately recommend a couple of lessons with
a teacher, even if you have to travel far.  It would
be worth the effort to avoid years of frustration.

Good luck!

Chris

P.S.  By the way, I'm playing mostly baroque music
nowadays and almost never use thumb-under anymore. 
Learning it helped my with many aspects of my playing
in all styles, however.





__
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Mathias Rösel]

Hi Andrew,

1600 is a rough date. John Dowland is a crown's witness >;) who during
his carrier changed from thumb-in to thumb-out. I'm uncertain concerning
all the other European players, but e. g. Jean Baptiste Besard
recommended thumb-out in his method shortly after 1600 (1603, if memory
correctly serves). To put it the other way round, I don't know of a
source that recommends thumb-in after 1600. 

As for the baroque lute, all the iconographic material that I'm aware of
points to thumb-out, even though there is a picture of Charles Mouton
who stretches his thumb out but doesn't hold his fingers in an exact 90°
angle toward the strings. So, the least that can be said is, that
thumb-out isn't un-HIP for lute music after 1600.

Mathias

"Andrew Gibbs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> Hello Mathias
> Is it right to think that thumb-out is the historically correct  
> technique for lute music composed post 1600? Did lute players all  
> over Europe switch to thumb-out around 1600? And this might be a  
> silly question: are there any players today who use both techniques:  
> thumb-in for renaissance pieces and thumb-out for baroque?
> 
> I didn't play much guitar before taking up the lute so learning thumb- 
> in hasn't involved breaking any habits - but I am (perhaps overly)  
> concerned with historical correctness.
> 
> Andrew (also a beginner player)
> 
> On 1 May 2007, at 14:11, Mathias Rösel wrote:
> 
> > Hi John,
> >
> > thumb-in is not the only technique to be used for the renaissance  
> > lute.
> > There is still another technique, called thumb-out, which resembles
> > guitar technique a lot. The pinky stays on the soundboard, but the
> > forefinger, middle and ring finger are held in a right angle toward  
> > the
> > strings (instead of parallel as with thumb-in), and the thumb is
> > stretched out, being held parallel to the bass courses.
> >
> > I've played the lute for almost 25 years by now, using thumb-in
> > exclusively, even with the baroque lute (sic!), as I was under
> > impression that is the proper way. Only since some five months I've
> > seriously tried thumb-out, and I have to say, it works well, producing
> > quite a distinct sound which differs from what comes out of thumb-in.
> >
> > All I wanted to say is, you are not doomed to thumb-in, and if it
> > doesn't work for you, try the other. It was developed around 1600 for
> > playing lutes with seven and more courses.



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Andrew Gibbs]

Hello Mathias
Is it right to think that thumb-out is the historically correct  
technique for lute music composed post 1600? Did lute players all  
over Europe switch to thumb-out around 1600? And this might be a  
silly question: are there any players today who use both techniques:  
thumb-in for renaissance pieces and thumb-out for baroque?

I didn't play much guitar before taking up the lute so learning thumb- 
in hasn't involved breaking any habits - but I am (perhaps overly)  
concerned with historical correctness.

Andrew (also a beginner player)

On 1 May 2007, at 14:11, Mathias Rösel wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> thumb-in is not the only technique to be used for the renaissance  
> lute.
> There is still another technique, called thumb-out, which resembles
> guitar technique a lot. The pinky stays on the soundboard, but the
> forefinger, middle and ring finger are held in a right angle toward  
> the
> strings (instead of parallel as with thumb-in), and the thumb is
> stretched out, being held parallel to the bass courses.
>
> I've played the lute for almost 25 years by now, using thumb-in
> exclusively, even with the baroque lute (sic!), as I was under
> impression that is the proper way. Only since some five months I've
> seriously tried thumb-out, and I have to say, it works well, producing
> quite a distinct sound which differs from what comes out of thumb-in.
>
> All I wanted to say is, you are not doomed to thumb-in, and if it
> doesn't work for you, try the other. It was developed around 1600 for
> playing lutes with seven and more courses.
>
> Mathias
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Mathias Rösel]

Hi John,

thumb-in is not the only technique to be used for the renaissance lute.
There is still another technique, called thumb-out, which resembles
guitar technique a lot. The pinky stays on the soundboard, but the
forefinger, middle and ring finger are held in a right angle toward the
strings (instead of parallel as with thumb-in), and the thumb is
stretched out, being held parallel to the bass courses. 

I've played the lute for almost 25 years by now, using thumb-in
exclusively, even with the baroque lute (sic!), as I was under
impression that is the proper way. Only since some five months I've
seriously tried thumb-out, and I have to say, it works well, producing
quite a distinct sound which differs from what comes out of thumb-in.

All I wanted to say is, you are not doomed to thumb-in, and if it
doesn't work for you, try the other. It was developed around 1600 for
playing lutes with seven and more courses.

Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Anthony Hind]

John
I began playing the lute about 30 years ago. I briefly had a teacher  
(for a few months until he left Paris) but I thought I had acquired  
the basic technique.
I stopped after about two years, because I realised that when ever I  
needed to sit down to write my thesis, I found I picked up my lute  
instead.

I began playing again, just a couple of years ago when I retired  
almost completely from my work.
I bought the Damiani book (I already had the Diana Poulton) and  
believed that my technique was still alright, but that I just needed  
practise.
I did made some progress during the first year and a half, but then I  
came to a halt. Several people told me that I should take a lesson,  
but I really did not feel like it.
At my age, I did not want to become a pupil again.

However, recently I gave in and took three lessons, and the progress  
I have just made on both left and right
hand technique is quite spectacular (to me at least). I just had not  
seen what I was doing wrong. It is very difficult to observe
what you are actually doing from the playing angle. Perhaps if you  
film yourself, you might be able to get round this.
Nevertheless, I would suggest you try to find a way of at least  
having a few lessons. Perhaps you could enroll for a short holiday  
course, or similar.

I notice that Ron Macfarlane http://www.ronnmcfarlane.com talks a  
little about the lute for guitarists, and he has also made a video of  
his playing,
Ronn McFarlane - Contemporary Lute Virtuoso, for sale at  http:// 
www.melbay.com/
Regards
Anthony



Le 1 mai 07 à 12:19, John Scott a écrit :

> Ok, I'm into week two of learning to play the lute, and already I'm
> fervently wishing there was a teacher (or even another player) in this
> part of the world.  Instead I've got myself a copy of Diana  
> Poulton's tutor.
>
> I feel like I'm having to unlearn all my 'good' guitar habits!  I've
> started keeping my pinky 'glued' to the soundboard (shiver!);  I've  
> even
> trimmed my precious right-hand nails (and how traumatic THAT was!)...
>
> But what's driven me back to the list is a question about right-hand
> thumb technique.  It feels very odd (and a bit inefficient and
> counter-intuitive)  to have the thumb bouncing around so much,  
> playing a
> base note, then immediately jumping up to the first or second  
> course to
> play one of the melody notes, then down for another bass note, and  
> so on.
>
> I keep wanting to use my thumb for the bass notes, and my first two
> fingers (guitar style) for the melody line... however, I DO want to
> learn to play the lute 'properly', so I'm going to try to stick with
> it.  But it's driving me crazy!
>
> I'm just wondering - do any of the sources give a reason for this kind
> of thumb technique, or is it just some odd quirk in the evolution of
> playing?
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Another beginner's question

[Sean Smith]

Hi John,

Hooray! It's supposed to feel awkward at first --all changes of habit 
do. It was a good idea to put the guitar on the back burner while you 
suss this out --no sense in confusing your hand more than necessary.

I won't address all your concerns here (I have to leave for work soon 
and I'm hoping others will add a few notes) but I do want to warn you 
about a trap I fell into for a few years.

About that pinky glue: It's easy to anchor that pinky down and to lean 
into it for stability. Try to resist this! Your hand should be about 
the same shape as a natural hand at rest but in front of a lute. The 
pinky might protrude a little but it should only _just_ contact the 
lute, giving your brain feedback that 'Oh, the lute belly is about 
here'.

If the hand starts to anchor through the pinky lots of tension habits 
will start to form. That little contact should be free to move about a 
few inches as you work your scales up and down from the 6th course to 
the 1st. What can also loosen up this contact is to have a light 
contact for your right fore arm as well. What will facilitate both 
these ideas is to not arch the hand up and let the the arm approach a 
parallelness to the strings (as looking from your head down). The 
lute's neck may have to move away from you a little to make this 
happen.

I believe there are some small images on Jacob Heringmann's website as 
well as at the LSA website.

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html#video

Good luck!

Sean



On May 1, 2007, at 3:19 AM, John Scott wrote:

> Ok, I'm into week two of learning to play the lute, and already I'm
> fervently wishing there was a teacher (or even another player) in this
> part of the world.  Instead I've got myself a copy of Diana Poulton's 
> tutor.
>
> I feel like I'm having to unlearn all my 'good' guitar habits!  I've
> started keeping my pinky 'glued' to the soundboard (shiver!);  I've 
> even
> trimmed my precious right-hand nails (and how traumatic THAT was!)...
>
> But what's driven me back to the list is a question about right-hand
> thumb technique.  It feels very odd (and a bit inefficient and
> counter-intuitive)  to have the thumb bouncing around so much, playing 
> a
> base note, then immediately jumping up to the first or second course to
> play one of the melody notes, then down for another bass note, and so 
> on.
>
> I keep wanting to use my thumb for the bass notes, and my first two
> fingers (guitar style) for the melody line... however, I DO want to
> learn to play the lute 'properly', so I'm going to try to stick with
> it.  But it's driving me crazy!
>
> I'm just wondering - do any of the sources give a reason for this kind
> of thumb technique, or is it just some odd quirk in the evolution of
> playing?
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Another beginner's question

[John Scott]

Ok, I'm into week two of learning to play the lute, and already I'm
fervently wishing there was a teacher (or even another player) in this
part of the world.  Instead I've got myself a copy of Diana Poulton's tutor.

I feel like I'm having to unlearn all my 'good' guitar habits!  I've
started keeping my pinky 'glued' to the soundboard (shiver!);  I've even
trimmed my precious right-hand nails (and how traumatic THAT was!)...

But what's driven me back to the list is a question about right-hand
thumb technique.  It feels very odd (and a bit inefficient and
counter-intuitive)  to have the thumb bouncing around so much, playing a
base note, then immediately jumping up to the first or second course to
play one of the melody notes, then down for another bass note, and so on.

I keep wanting to use my thumb for the bass notes, and my first two
fingers (guitar style) for the melody line... however, I DO want to
learn to play the lute 'properly', so I'm going to try to stick with
it.  But it's driving me crazy!

I'm just wondering - do any of the sources give a reason for this kind
of thumb technique, or is it just some odd quirk in the evolution of
playing?




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[LUTE] Re: Lute sightings

[G. Crona]

4. Animated movie Schreck 1. Final musical number. Several lutes.

G.

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Hoar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "G. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:46 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute sightings


> Has anyone mentioned Mimi Wo Sumaseba (Whisper of the Heart)?
> A 1995 film directed by Kondo, written by the wonderful Miyazaki.  There's
> an impromptu  version of 'Country Roads" on viol, voice, assorted wind
> instruments, violin and lute. Animated but looks accurate although the RH
> pinky is not on the soundboard.  Very cool version of the song and this is
> a
> delightful film.
> Miyazaki's films show up most commercial film making for the heartless,
> violent, sexist, infantile twaddle it is. Oops, off topic.
>
> Peter Hoar



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