[LUTE] Re: Double Meantone ... 'not in his practice'
Not quite Lord Copper: the whole point is that he doesn't actually 'do it in practice' as you put it. He ignores (or is ignorant of) the different dispositions of diatonic and chromatic semitones on each of the strings and thus, indeed, doesn't 'do it in practice'. MH howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Nov 12, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote: > a.. Eumatius [the student]: ... Also, how does it happen that you > do not use frets that are spaced by unusual inequality of > intervals, and some other little frets that take away the sharpness > from the major third and tenth, as I have seen used by some > universally known, skilful men, from whom I understand that both > are exceedingly necessary and useful. > b.. Fronimo [the teacher]: [ * * * > [Then he points out that those using the tastini do not know much > about theory, they just want to hear 'marvels'.] And indeed, Galilei sounds remarkably like Martyn, complaining that David van Ooijen's fretting is theoretically impossible even though David actually does it in practice. But the point here is not that Galilei thinks "frets that are spaced by unusual inequality of intervals" and dismissed tastini as wrongheaded. The point is that even in staking out his debating position, Galilei surprisingly concedes that the lutenists who disagree with him include "universally known, skillful men." He's aware that he's talking about a practice that's common, or respected, or both. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month. --
[LUTE] Re: Double Meantone ...
On Nov 12, 2007, at 12:41 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: > There are levels of Prominence, and it is not necessarily achieved > by merit, as we all know. The question was about evidence of tastini. My point is that Galilei's remarks indicate that tastini usage had a prominence that he couldn't ignore, and had to speak of with some respect. Speculative value judgments about anonymous people would not alter the point. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double Meantone ... 'not in his practice'
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." - Yogi Berra Sorry all, couldn't resist. > Not quite Lord Copper: the whole point is that he doesn't actually >'do it in practice' as you put it. He ignores (or is ignorant of) >the different dispositions of diatonic and chromatic semitones on >each of the strings and thus, indeed, doesn't 'do it in practice'. > > >And indeed, Galilei sounds remarkably like Martyn, complaining that >David van Ooijen's fretting is theoretically impossible even though >David actually does it in practice. > >But the point here is not that Galilei thinks "frets that are spaced >by unusual inequality of intervals" and dismissed tastini as >wrongheaded. The point is that even in staking out his debating >position, Galilei surprisingly concedes that the lutenists who >disagree with him include "universally known, skillful men." He's >aware that he's talking about a practice that's common, or respected, >or both. Also, according to laws of physics, biology, and aerodynamics, bumblebees can't fly. -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
The soloist is Luca Pianca, of "Il Giardino Armonico" fame. He usually plays single strung, like many of his peers. - Original Message - From: "howard posner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Bruno Correia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute List" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Bruno Correia wrote: Is this a baroque lute? It is, but probably not what you mean by "baroque lute." It's probably best described as a liuto attiorbato. It's configured as a single-strung archlute in A. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U Seems to be single strung through out... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets
I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but isn't the G on the fourth course +7 not minus 7, semi ideally? I feel a surreal sense that I have somehow misplaced G. Also, how do you manage the octave A being out by 7 centimes? Not criticizing, just intrigued. Thanks for the figures. I will digest them slowly like the the python in le petit prince. dt At 02:31 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >Dear Martyn > >We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch >saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like: >communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same >thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human >contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how >will we ever make contact? > >>> I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials ><< > >I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I >assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one >piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself >playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an >MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that >the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute >can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step >before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note >by note. Because of the straight frets: > >the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely >the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up >the fingerboard ><< > > >No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an >organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is >purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I >tune my lute to match these? >Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents: > >Eb = 21 >Bb = 17 >F = 14 >C = 10 >G = 7 >D = 3 >A = 0 >E = -3 >B = -7 >F# = -10 >C# = -14 >G# = -17 >D# = -21 > >Lute in g' >Fret = note = cents deviation > >First course: >0 = G = 7 >1 = G# = -24 >2 = A = -7 >3 = Bb = 10 >4 = B = -14 >5 = C = 3 > >Second course: >0 = D = 3 >1 = Eb = 18 >2 = E = -6 >3 = F = 11 >4 = F# = -13 >5 = G = 4 > >Third course: >0 = A = 0 >1 = Bb = 17 >2 = B = -7 >3 = C = 10 >4 = C# = -14 >5 = D = 3 > >Fourth course: >0 = F = 14 >1 = F# = -24 >2 = G = -7 >3 = G# = -31 >4 = A = -14 >5 = Bb = 3 > >Fifth course: >0 = C = 10 >1 = C# = -24 >2 = D = -7 >3 = Eb = 11 >4 = E = -13 >5 = F = 4 > >This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses: > >First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24 >Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so. > >Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7 >Perfect enough for me. > >Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11 >Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a >note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though. > >Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13 >Perfect enough for me. > >Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4 >Perfect enough for me. > > >Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to >correct these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the >figures agree more in theory, by the way, but is nonsense in >practice. Other varieties of meantone (1/6, 1/7, 1/8 comma) will >give less extreme fret positions, and might make the g# on the >fourth course acceptable, depending on your ears (or ensemble). This >leaves us with the problematic first fret. I, and others, have found >different practical ways of living with that, let it rest for now. >Fretting from 6th fret repeats basically what is done in the first five. > >I think I have shown it is possible to tune a lute in meantone to >match all the notes on the organ, with the practical problems of g# >on fourth course and first fret to be solved in a practical way >(tastini, split fret or avoidance of wrong notes. Been there, done >that, it works). > >I have no idea about historical evidence for this, but I would >assume that a lutenist of old, faced with an organ in meantone, >would come up with something similar to make his life workable. I >see modern viol, violone and lute players move their frets all the >time to match the organ, I see no reason why that would have been >different in olden times. I know that is not evidence, but >musicians' ears and their desires to solve problems cannot have >changed that much. > >Additionally, I find, when tuned in meantone, a part of the lute and >notably theorbo solo repertoire to work very well. That's my liking >only, perhaps, but would a lutenist of old change his frets and >retune for his solo pieces, if these can be played with the frets in >ensemble setup? Purely speculation, no historical evidence, take it >or leave it, but do try it. > >David > >To Roman: last count was closer to 30 than 20, but I'm sure not >nearly as many as POD's, whose solo cds are perhaps the only ones >you've counted. Mine are all ensemble of some sort or other. No big >
[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets
Dear David I know I'm going to hate myself for saying this, but isn't the G on the fourth course +7 not minus 7, semi ideally? Fourth course is F. F is tuned +14. To make a G of +7 on the fourth course, you'de have to adjust the second fret by -7 (+14 -7 = +7). Beats me everytime I make these calculations. Also, how do you manage the octave A being out by 7 centimes? Not criticizing, just intrigued. So am I, which octave? Perhaps see answer above ...? David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl Thanks for the figures. I will digest them slowly like the the python in le petit prince. dt At 02:31 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote: Dear Martyn We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like: communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how will we ever make contact? I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials << I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note by note. Because of the straight frets: the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up the fingerboard << No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I tune my lute to match these? Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents: Eb = 21 Bb = 17 F = 14 C = 10 G = 7 D = 3 A = 0 E = -3 B = -7 F# = -10 C# = -14 G# = -17 D# = -21 Lute in g' Fret = note = cents deviation First course: 0 = G = 7 1 = G# = -24 2 = A = -7 3 = Bb = 10 4 = B = -14 5 = C = 3 Second course: 0 = D = 3 1 = Eb = 18 2 = E = -6 3 = F = 11 4 = F# = -13 5 = G = 4 Third course: 0 = A = 0 1 = Bb = 17 2 = B = -7 3 = C = 10 4 = C# = -14 5 = D = 3 Fourth course: 0 = F = 14 1 = F# = -24 2 = G = -7 3 = G# = -31 4 = A = -14 5 = Bb = 3 Fifth course: 0 = C = 10 1 = C# = -24 2 = D = -7 3 = Eb = 11 4 = E = -13 5 = F = 4 This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses: First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24 Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so. Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7 Perfect enough for me. Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11 Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though. Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13 Perfect enough for me. Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4 Perfect enough for me. Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to correct these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the figures agree more in theory, by the way, but is nonsense in practice. Other varieties of meantone (1/6, 1/7, 1/8 comma) will give less extreme fret positions, and might make the g# on the fourth course acceptable, depending on your ears (or ensemble). This leaves us with the problematic first fret. I, and others, have found different practical ways of living with that, let it rest for now. Fretting from 6th fret repeats basically what is done in the first five. I think I have shown it is possible to tune a lute in meantone to match all the notes on the organ, with the practical problems of g# on fourth course and first fret to be solved in a practical way (tastini, split fret or avoidance of wrong notes. Been there, done that, it works). I have no idea about historical evidence for this, but I would assume that a lutenist of old, faced with an organ in meantone, would come up with something similar to make his life workable. I see modern viol, violone and lute players move their frets all the time to match the organ, I see no reason why that would have been different in olden times. I know that is not evidence, but musicians' ears and their desires to solve problems cannot have changed that much. Additionally, I find, when tuned in meantone, a part of the lute and notably theorbo solo repertoire to work very well. That's my liking only, perhaps, but would a lutenist of old change his frets and retune for his solo pieces, if these can be played with the frets in ensemble setup? Purely speculation, no historical evidence, take it or leave it, but do try it. David To Roman: last count was closer to 30 than 20, but I'm sure not nea
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
what a wonderful video and what a wonderful CD-label. w. http://www.elucevanlestelle.com/musicstore/website/it/index.php?section_name=music_store_item_list&article_category=CD > > Original-Nachricht > Datum: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 13:40:06 +0100 > Von: "G. Crona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Spinacino > > Tasty, timely & tactful > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXIEE0_L9Pk > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --
[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets
From: "LGS-Europe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute can play the modulation. That is some modulation. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Notwithstanding the tuning, how about a wandervogel. Mr Pianca holds and plays it like other players treat their guitars.--Okay, just kidding >8) Mathias "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > No, it is a single-strung archlute. > > Interestingly enough, the ensemble (and the archlutenist) are playing in a > = 440, instead of 415. As well, if you notice his tuning, he is playing > as though it were in the key of C major, instead of D major! Therefore, > he is tuned with the top string in a, instead of g!! The neck of this > single strung archlute appears short in proportion to the size of the body > of the lute. He probably wanted a big sound, but at a higher pitch than > the customary "g" lute. Notice that he has only 8 frets on the > fingerboard. He is playing all synthetic strings, tuned in a, at a + 440. > > I have performed this concerto many times, and I have not decided on the > best solution. Firstly, I did it on a "g" lute, but D major is awkward on > a g lute. I did it in an alto lute in a, and it works marvelously like > that (this is what this particular lutenist is doing). I have also done it > on a soprano lute in d, but it is played an octave higher, and it gets > fairly high on the fret board, but it really works well that way too. > > > > ed > > > > At 11:30 PM 11/12/2007 -0200, Bruno Correia wrote: > >Is this a baroque lute? > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U > > > >Seems to be single strung through out... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets
Your table demonstrate some of the real practical problems I highlighted, but the straight fret issue is but one of them. What you are also overlooking is what happens when, to take just one very simple early example in your table below, your first course is fretted at the first fret but not as a chromatic interval (ie G# for a lute in nominal G) but a diatonic interval of Ab? As you may find playing in, say, Cm rather than A . Thus when you say ' this gives the ideal position for fret positions on all 5 courses' I'm afraid you're wrong. Do your sums again using the additional alternative chromatic or diatonic notes as appropriate and then see what pattern you come up with. Bearing this in mind, in practice how does your prescriptive system manage when playing in concert with such pieces? For example, last weekend I played continuo in an enjoyable programme of English based Cecilian Odes (Purcell, Clarke, Draghi - this last a real revelation and, incidentally, a key influence on P's later ode settings): keys ranged from B (5 sharps) through to Fm (4 flats) Besides the theorbo, other continuo was chamber organ, harpsichord and gamba. MH MH LGS-Europe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear Martyn We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like: communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how will we ever make contact? >> I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials << I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note by note. Because of the straight frets: >> the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up the fingerboard << No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I tune my lute to match these? Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents: Eb = 21 Bb = 17 F = 14 C = 10 G = 7 D = 3 A = 0 E = -3 B = -7 F# = -10 C# = -14 G# = -17 D# = -21 Lute in g' Fret = note = cents deviation First course: 0 = G = 7 1 = G# = -24 2 = A = -7 3 = Bb = 10 4 = B = -14 5 = C = 3 Second course: 0 = D = 3 1 = Eb = 18 2 = E = -6 3 = F = 11 4 = F# = -13 5 = G = 4 Third course: 0 = A = 0 1 = Bb = 17 2 = B = -7 3 = C = 10 4 = C# = -14 5 = D = 3 Fourth course: 0 = F = 14 1 = F# = -24 2 = G = -7 3 = G# = -31 4 = A = -14 5 = Bb = 3 Fifth course: 0 = C = 10 1 = C# = -24 2 = D = -7 3 = Eb = 11 4 = E = -13 5 = F = 4 This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses: First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24 Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so. Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7 Perfect enough for me. Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11 Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though. Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13 Perfect enough for me. Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4 Perfect enough for me. Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to correct these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the figures agree more in theory, by the way, but is nonsense in practice. Other varieties of meantone (1/6, 1/7, 1/8 comma) will give less extreme fret positions, and might make the g# on the fourth course acceptable, depending on your ears (or ensemble). This leaves us with the problematic first fret. I, and others, have found different practical ways of living with that, let it rest for now. Fretting from 6th fret repeats basically what is done in the first five. I think I have shown it is possible to tune a lute in meantone to match all the notes on the organ, with the practical problems of g# on fourth course and first fret to be solved in a practical way (tastini, split fret or avoidance of wrong notes. Been there, done that, it works). I have no idea about historical evidence for this, but I would assume that a lutenist of old, faced with an organ in meantone, would come up with something similar to make his life workable. I see modern viol, violone and lute players move their frets all the time to match the organ, I see no reason why that would have been different
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Not meaning to be confrontational, but does anyone know of an historical example of a single strung Archlute? My impression is that this is nothing more than a Guitar like instrument with a lot of extra base strings shaped like a Lute. - Original Message - From: ""Mathias Rösel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Bruno Correia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute List" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Notwithstanding the tuning, how about a wandervogel. Mr Pianca holds and plays it like other players treat their guitars.--Okay, just kidding 8) Mathias "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: No, it is a single-strung archlute. Interestingly enough, the ensemble (and the archlutenist) are playing in a = 440, instead of 415. As well, if you notice his tuning, he is playing as though it were in the key of C major, instead of D major! Therefore, he is tuned with the top string in a, instead of g!! The neck of this single strung archlute appears short in proportion to the size of the body of the lute. He probably wanted a big sound, but at a higher pitch than the customary "g" lute. Notice that he has only 8 frets on the fingerboard. He is playing all synthetic strings, tuned in a, at a + 440. I have performed this concerto many times, and I have not decided on the best solution. Firstly, I did it on a "g" lute, but D major is awkward on a g lute. I did it in an alto lute in a, and it works marvelously like that (this is what this particular lutenist is doing). I have also done it on a soprano lute in d, but it is played an octave higher, and it gets fairly high on the fret board, but it really works well that way too. ed At 11:30 PM 11/12/2007 -0200, Bruno Correia wrote: >Is this a baroque lute? >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U > >Seems to be single strung through out... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ang%C3%A9lique_%28instrument%29 RT From: "vance wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Not meaning to be confrontational, but does anyone know of an historical example of a single strung Archlute? My impression is that this is nothing more than a Guitar like instrument with a lot of extra base strings shaped like a Lute. - Original Message - From: ""Mathias Rösel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Bruno Correia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute List" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Notwithstanding the tuning, how about a wandervogel. Mr Pianca holds and plays it like other players treat their guitars.--Okay, just kidding 8) Mathias "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: No, it is a single-strung archlute. Interestingly enough, the ensemble (and the archlutenist) are playing in a = 440, instead of 415. As well, if you notice his tuning, he is playing as though it were in the key of C major, instead of D major! Therefore, he is tuned with the top string in a, instead of g!! The neck of this single strung archlute appears short in proportion to the size of the body of the lute. He probably wanted a big sound, but at a higher pitch than the customary "g" lute. Notice that he has only 8 frets on the fingerboard. He is playing all synthetic strings, tuned in a, at a + 440. I have performed this concerto many times, and I have not decided on the best solution. Firstly, I did it on a "g" lute, but D major is awkward on a g lute. I did it in an alto lute in a, and it works marvelously like that (this is what this particular lutenist is doing). I have also done it on a soprano lute in d, but it is played an octave higher, and it gets fairly high on the fret board, but it really works well that way too. ed At 11:30 PM 11/12/2007 -0200, Bruno Correia wrote: >Is this a baroque lute? >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U > >Seems to be single strung through out... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM
[LUTE] vivaldi
Everything about it screams guitar to me: the sound, the nails, the general approach. Yes, a guitar that looks a bit like a lute! Nigel To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Thanks for sharing that link Roman, it's nice to be informed about something I did not know existed. - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute List" ; "vance wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ang%C3%A9lique_%28instrument%29 RT From: "vance wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Not meaning to be confrontational, but does anyone know of an historical example of a single strung Archlute? My impression is that this is nothing more than a Guitar like instrument with a lot of extra base strings shaped like a Lute. - Original Message - From: ""Mathias Rösel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Bruno Correia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute List" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Notwithstanding the tuning, how about a wandervogel. Mr Pianca holds and plays it like other players treat their guitars.--Okay, just kidding 8) Mathias "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: No, it is a single-strung archlute. Interestingly enough, the ensemble (and the archlutenist) are playing in a = 440, instead of 415. As well, if you notice his tuning, he is playing as though it were in the key of C major, instead of D major! Therefore, he is tuned with the top string in a, instead of g!! The neck of this single strung archlute appears short in proportion to the size of the body of the lute. He probably wanted a big sound, but at a higher pitch than the customary "g" lute. Notice that he has only 8 frets on the fingerboard. He is playing all synthetic strings, tuned in a, at a + 440. I have performed this concerto many times, and I have not decided on the best solution. Firstly, I did it on a "g" lute, but D major is awkward on a g lute. I did it in an alto lute in a, and it works marvelously like that (this is what this particular lutenist is doing). I have also done it on a soprano lute in d, but it is played an octave higher, and it gets fairly high on the fret board, but it really works well that way too. ed At 11:30 PM 11/12/2007 -0200, Bruno Correia wrote: >Is this a baroque lute? >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U > >Seems to be single strung through out... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
'Tis my pleasure to serve. RT Thanks for sharing that link Roman, it's nice to be informed about something I did not know existed. - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute List" ; "vance wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ang%C3%A9lique_%28instrument%29 RT From: "vance wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Not meaning to be confrontational, but does anyone know of an historical example of a single strung Archlute? My impression is that this is nothing more than a Guitar like instrument with a lot of extra base strings shaped like a Lute. - Original Message - From: ""Mathias Rösel"" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Bruno Correia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute List" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi Notwithstanding the tuning, how about a wandervogel. Mr Pianca holds and plays it like other players treat their guitars.--Okay, just kidding 8) Mathias "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: No, it is a single-strung archlute. Interestingly enough, the ensemble (and the archlutenist) are playing in a = 440, instead of 415. As well, if you notice his tuning, he is playing as though it were in the key of C major, instead of D major! Therefore, he is tuned with the top string in a, instead of g!! The neck of this single strung archlute appears short in proportion to the size of the body of the lute. He probably wanted a big sound, but at a higher pitch than the customary "g" lute. Notice that he has only 8 frets on the fingerboard. He is playing all synthetic strings, tuned in a, at a + 440. I have performed this concerto many times, and I have not decided on the best solution. Firstly, I did it on a "g" lute, but D major is awkward on a g lute. I did it in an alto lute in a, and it works marvelously like that (this is what this particular lutenist is doing). I have also done it on a soprano lute in d, but it is played an octave higher, and it gets fairly high on the fret board, but it really works well that way too. ed At 11:30 PM 11/12/2007 -0200, Bruno Correia wrote: >Is this a baroque lute? >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U > >Seems to be single strung through out... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.31/1128 - Release Date: 11/13/2007 11:09 AM
[LUTE] Renaissance consonance and dissonance
Can some one help me find some information about them in the use of the renissance counterpoint (2 voices for now is good for me) I totally forgot it and can't find my books :( Thanks you all :-) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] [LUTE]Indigo Road scores from Mignarda Editions
To all: Please forgive this diversion from such illuminating threads but we would like to announce a very special new release. Mignarda Editions is delighted to announce the release of lute tablature scores for Ronn McFarlane's Indigo Road, offering lutenists a chance to both hear and play Ronn's haunting and imaginative original music for lute. Released simultaneously with the Dorian/Sono Luminus CD of the same name, our edition contains exactly the same pieces recorded on the CD, carefully formatted for ease of performance with no page turns. Through a special arrangement with Dorian/Sono Luminus, Mignarda Editions is pleased to offer the book containing tablature scores separately, or as a package with the CD. We consider this edition of Ronn's music to be something of a new 'Varitie of Lute Lessons', with an exploration of many techniques and tone colors for the lute. The tablature scores are suitable for lutenists with an intermediate to advanced technique, with several very accessible and melodic pieces. The music was carefully transcribed from Ronn's original handwritten scores, and edited in close cooperation with the composer. Those of you who have heard Ronn's captivating performances of his new music for lute will want to own this book. For domestic and international on-line ordering, follow the link below: http://www.mignarda.com/editions/mcfarlane Please contact us at the address below if you have any questions, and be sure to browse through our other available titles. Best wishes, Ron Andrico & Donna Stewart [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mignarda.com _ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: vivaldi
On Nov 13, 2007, at 6:47 AM, Nigel Solomon wrote: > Everything about it screams guitar to me: the sound, the nails, the > general approach. Yes, a guitar that looks a bit like a lute! To me, everything about it screams liuto attiorbato, like a good many historical instruments in museums with fingerboard lengths under 60 cm and extension strings of 75-85 cm, played with nails the way historical Italian players would likely have played it. In the 90's Luca Pianca was playing instruments by the Swiss maker Luc Breton. I don't know if he still is. BTW, Giardino Armonico is playing here at A=392 (their D is the C on my wife's piano), so Luca's A would be G at A=440. The CD recording of the same concerto that Pianca and Giardino released in 1992 was at A=415. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Vivaldi
> > >Everything about it screams guitar to me: the sound, the nails, the >general approach. Yes, a guitar that looks a bit like a lute! > > To me, everything about it screams liuto attiorbato, like a good many historical instruments in museums with fingerboard lengths under 60 cm and extension strings of 75-85 cm, played with nails the way historical Italian players would likely have played it. In the 90's Luca Pianca was playing instruments by the Swiss maker Luc Breton. I don't know if he still is. BTW, Giardino Armonico is playing here at A=392 (their D is the C on my wife's piano), so Luca's A would be G at A=440. The CD recording of the same concerto that Pianca and Giardino released in 1992 was at A=415. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Are any single strung? All of the existing liuto attiorbato, to my knowledge at least, are double strung on the fingerboard and most are double strung on the diapasons as well. I'm sure Luca is a decent guitarist, but his lute style reminds me of certain guitarist/lutenists of the 60s and 70s. Compromises are all very well but I think we do things a bit different nowadays --
[LUTE] Re: vivaldi
>On Nov 13, 2007, at 6:47 AM, Nigel Solomon wrote: > >> Everything about it screams guitar to me: the sound, the nails, the >> general approach. Yes, a guitar that looks a bit like a lute! > >To me, everything about it screams liuto attiorbato, like a good many >historical instruments in museums with fingerboard lengths under 60 >cm and extension strings of 75-85 cm, played with nails the way >historical Italian players would likely have played it. And early German and British 'cellists bowed underhand, while overhand bowing was being developed by Italians as a new virtuoso technique. We drive ourselves crazy trying to define, categorize, and pigeon hole the past to complete our present understanding and arrive at a comfortably defined musical territory or neighborhood to play in. As for "guitars that look like lutes" check this out- (scroll ALL the way down...) Nothing new under the sun, is there? http://www.lutesandguitars.co.uk/htm/cat11.htm The theorboed guitar - the Chitarrone Francese ? Although this archlute-like instrument is also included in the continuo instruments section of the website, we have listed it here also because it appears to represent an overlooked approach to playing figured bass. The instrument depicted in this very accurately-draughted painting has five courses on the fingerboard (with the top string clearly single) and nine diapasons - compared to what would be expected on a similarly-sized archlute: six double fingerboard courses and eight diapasons. There is a reasonable likelihood that it was, in fact, used by guitarists who strung and tuned the fingerboard courses like a guitar, and who would be used to reading from the bass clef, so that they could realise a figured bass part and play continuo on a theorboed guitar, rather than learn the completely different archlute tuning. The player's left hand almost exactly corresponds to chord 'L' in the alfabetto system (L corresponds to a difficult fingering for a C minor chord) Sanz uses engravings of hands to illustrate the chord positions in his 1697 book. >BTW, Giardino Armonico is playing here at A=392 (their D is the C on >my wife's piano), so Luca's A would be G at A=440. The CD recording >of the same concerto that Pianca and Giardino released in 1992 was at >A=415. -- -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Roman Turovsky wrote: Are any single strung? All of the existing liuto attiorbato, to my You might have missed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ang%C3%A9lique_%28instrument%29 knowledge at least, are double strung on the fingerboard and most are double strung on the diapasons as well. I'm sure Luca is a decent guitarist, but his lute style reminds me of certain guitarist/lutenists of the 60s and 70s. Compromises are all very well but I think we do things a bit different nowadays Nowadays we do things with a lot more varieties of approach. RT --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. Yes, I knew about the angelique (and certain single-strung theorbos too), but I was not aware that any of the shorter Italian archlutes/attiorbato had single strings. I know single strings are more convenient, but on a very short instrument I think you lose the "lute" sound due to the octave stringing on the basses. On the other hand, double stringing is a nusiance if you want to be heard over an orchestra (you can't play as hard) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: vivaldi
>> To me, everything about it screams liuto attiorbato, like a good many >> historical instruments in museums with fingerboard lengths under 60 >> cm and extension strings of 75-85 cm, played with nails the way >> historical Italian players would likely have played it. If we're still talking about single-strung archlutes, isn't 75-85 cm a little short for single-strung extensions? Wouldn't you still need the octave stringing at that length? DR [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance consonance and dissonance
Best source for real renaissance counterpoint (NOT what is in college theory books) in English is Morley's Plain and Easie Introduction, though I recommend first people learn hexachord theory and play bicinia from Josquin, Lassus & Isaac. Perhaps there is a good historical book other than Morley, but Morley is what I used. Read the whole thing. Bicinia have all you need, really. dt At 07:41 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >Can some one help me find some information about them in the use of >the renissance counterpoint (2 voices for now is good for me) > >I totally forgot it and can't find my books :( > >Thanks you all :-) > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Single-strung 13-course Baroque Lutes?
As long as we're talking about single-strung archlutes, why not single-strung 13-course Baroque lutes? Do any of you play a single- strung 13-course? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: vivaldi
Of historical liuti attiorbati, Nigel Solomon asks: Are any single strung? They probably all have pegs and holes for double courses, but that doesn't mean that baroque-era players never used single strings on them, the same way modern players do. Nobody makes much of a fuss about the single-strung theorbos that are used almost exclusively these days, when we know there are many historical theorbos set up for double courses. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single-strung 13-course Baroque Lutes?
Terry Schumacher does! From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tue 11/13/2007 1:26 PM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Single-strung 13-course Baroque Lutes? As long as we're talking about single-strung archlutes, why not single-strung 13-course Baroque lutes? Do any of you play a single- strung 13-course? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance consonance and dissonance
On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, David Tayler wrote: > Best source for real renaissance counterpoint (NOT what is in college > theory books) > in English is Morley's Plain and Easie Introduction, though I > recommend first people learn hexachord theory and play bicinia from > Josquin, Lassus & Isaac. > > Perhaps there is a good historical book other than Morley, but Morley > is what I used. Read the whole thing. > > Bicinia have all you need, really. In that case, "all" you need is here: http://www.bicinium.info Peter. the next auto-quote is: Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth. (Gandhi) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets
First thanks to DVO for putting up the numbers--now we have some real world material. I find this very helpful. I'm still working though the chords, but in a real gig scenario I would set three basic levels-- I'm sure I will make mistakes so correct me if I am wrong Level one, the simplest of grounds, like Uccellini's bergamasca Level two a harmonized tetrachord like the thousands based on the notes descending from A to E Level three La Follia These three very basic patterns cover a lot of ground (pun alert). In the Bergamasca, one can play lute or archlute or theorbo in G or A, and we have a nice G chord, a nice D chord and an OK A chord Assuming the A chord is barred, and we don't use the fourth course, we will avoid the out of tune octaves, Not ideal for full chords but perfectly playable, and more in tune than ET. More importantly, it will clash less with the organ. By the way, they seemed to like the clash of temperaments. Go figure. The picture is good as well in A tuning, where we are looking essentially at F G C on the chart instead of G A D Here the open A is two high for F major, but the second fret gives a slightly lower one. Perhaps is not meantone in the the strict sense because the octaves can be out of tune--particularly in the F chord, but for me, the bergamasca works OK. In the C chord the fifth is too flat but that is easy to pull up a few cents by pulling the string sideways, something I do all the time (mostly between E and B). On the keyboard, the octaves are NOT out of tune, but there is a bit of a trade off. As far as I can see, this first set works OK. On to the lament. Assuming a basic harmony of a minor, e minor (sometimes G) D minor (7 suspended over F) and E major, we see that the A minor with a bar chord (again, leaving out any out of tune octaves on the A) and E minor are workable. D minor can be played with the open A to yield a better fifth, and the minor third is nicely high. Then the crunch--E major--the workaround here is to use the sixth fret only, or a fretlet, either of which work As far as I can see, this second set works OK. Which means La Follia works too, even adding G minor. Can't wait to try it. dt At 02:31 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >Dear Martyn > >We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch >saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like: >communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same >thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human >contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how >will we ever make contact? > >>> I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials ><< > >I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I >assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one >piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself >playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an >MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that >the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute >can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step >before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note >by note. Because of the straight frets: > >the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely >the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up >the fingerboard ><< > > >No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an >organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is >purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I >tune my lute to match these? >Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents: > >Eb = 21 >Bb = 17 >F = 14 >C = 10 >G = 7 >D = 3 >A = 0 >E = -3 >B = -7 >F# = -10 >C# = -14 >G# = -17 >D# = -21 > >Lute in g' >Fret = note = cents deviation > >First course: >0 = G = 7 >1 = G# = -24 >2 = A = -7 >3 = Bb = 10 >4 = B = -14 >5 = C = 3 > >Second course: >0 = D = 3 >1 = Eb = 18 >2 = E = -6 >3 = F = 11 >4 = F# = -13 >5 = G = 4 > >Third course: >0 = A = 0 >1 = Bb = 17 >2 = B = -7 >3 = C = 10 >4 = C# = -14 >5 = D = 3 > >Fourth course: >0 = F = 14 >1 = F# = -24 >2 = G = -7 >3 = G# = -31 >4 = A = -14 >5 = Bb = 3 > >Fifth course: >0 = C = 10 >1 = C# = -24 >2 = D = -7 >3 = Eb = 11 >4 = E = -13 >5 = F = 4 > >This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses: > >First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24 >Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so. > >Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7 >Perfect enough for me. > >Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11 >Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a >note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though. > >Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13 >Perfect enough for me. > >Fifth fret: 3, 4, 3, 3, 4 >Perfect enough for me. > > >Not too many typos, I hope, however, the math is simple enough to >correct these yourself. Calculating with more decimals will make the >f
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance consonance and dissonance
Woot. That is the coolest. dt >>Bicinia have all you need, really. >In that case, "all" you need is here: >http://www.bicinium.info > >Peter. > >the next auto-quote is: >Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth. >(Gandhi) >/\/\ >Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 >Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 >University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Renaissance consonance and dissonance
>... I recommend first people learn hexachord theory and play bicinia from >Josquin, Lassus & Isaac. I assume the Morley can be found reprinted and for sale at any of the usual sources; but is there a good anthology of Bicinia? Funny thing, I was just thinking of them recently as I wanted to get them for myself and students exactly for that and other reasons. Thanks, Dan >Perhaps there is a good historical book other than Morley, but Morley >is what I used. Read the whole thing. > >Bicinia have all you need, really. > >dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Single-strung 13-course Baroque Lutes?
If one listens to the old LP's, now on CD, of Eugen Dombois or Michael Schaffer, they sound as though they did not use octaves! ed At 01:26 PM 11/13/2007 -0500, David Rastall wrote: >As long as we're talking about single-strung archlutes, why not >single-strung 13-course Baroque lutes? Do any of you play a single- >strung 13-course? > >David R >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.30/1127 - Release Date: >11/12/2007 9:19 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] capo on third fret guitar
I don't know.. I put a capo on the 3rd fret of my guitar and got the relative tuning of a Ren. Lute.. it seems to work with the tabs Im reading. -- Joshua E. Horn [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Is there any advantage on playing such an instrument in Vivaldi? > The soloist is Luca Pianca, of "Il Giardino Armonico" fame. He usually > plays > single strung, like many of his peers. > > > > Bruno Correia wrote: > > > >> Is this a baroque lute? > > > > It is, but probably not what you mean by "baroque lute." It's > > probably best described as a liuto attiorbato. It's configured as a > > single-strung archlute in A. > > > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U > >> > >> Seems to be single strung through out... > > > > > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > --
[LUTE] Re: Meantone fretting with straight frets
Yes you are right I did not crank my F up high enough. Definitely an improvement over ET and balances with organ. At 02:38 PM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >>A, and we have a nice G chord, a nice D chord and an OK A chord >>Assuming the A chord is barred, and we don't use the fourth course, > >?? > >F = 14 >A = 0 >Fourth course open = 14 >Fret 4 = -14 gives A = 0 > >G = 7 >A = 0 >First course open = 7 >Fret 2 = -7 gives A = 0 > >Then A on fourth course is in tune with A on first course. Am I >missing something? > >David > > > >David van Ooijen >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >www.davidvanooijen.nl > > > > >>we will avoid the out of tune octaves, Not ideal for full chords but >>perfectly playable, and more in tune than ET. More importantly, it >>will clash less with the organ. By the way, they seemed to like the >>clash of temperaments. Go figure. >> >>The picture is good as well in A tuning, where we are looking >>essentially at F G C on the chart instead of G A D >>Here the open A is two high for F major, but the second fret gives a >>slightly lower one. >> >>Perhaps is not meantone in the the strict sense because the octaves >>can be out of tune--particularly in the F chord, but for me, the >>bergamasca works OK. In the C chord the fifth is too flat but that is >>easy to pull up a few cents by pulling the string sideways, something >>I do all the time (mostly between E and B). >>On the keyboard, the octaves are NOT out of tune, but there is a bit >>of a trade off. >> >>As far as I can see, this first set works OK. >> >>On to the lament. >>Assuming a basic harmony of a minor, e minor (sometimes G) D minor (7 >>suspended over F) and E major, >>we see that the A minor with a bar chord (again, leaving out any out >>of tune octaves on the A) and E minor are workable. >>D minor can be played with the open A to yield a better fifth, and >>the minor third is nicely high. >>Then the crunch--E major--the workaround here is to use the sixth >>fret only, or a fretlet, either of which work >> >>As far as I can see, this second set works OK. >> >>Which means La Follia works too, even adding G minor. >>Can't wait to try it. >> >> >>dt >> >> >> >> >>At 02:31 AM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >>>Dear Martyn >>> >>>We seem to be talking about almost the same thing. There's a Dutch >>>saying I cannot quite translate that goes something like: >>>communicating is talking as closely as possible about the same >>>thing, meaning you don't talk about the same thing at all. Human >>>contact is difficult, each man his own universe in his own head, how >>>will we ever make contact? >>> > I'm afraid you don't appear to grasp the essentials >>><< >>> >>>I'm sure your theory is better. When you talked about modulation I >>>assumed you meant a change of key, or tonal centre, within one >>>piece. Starting in a-minor, after five bars you find yourself >>>playing in C-major, cadenses and all. If you'd agree that an >>>MT-tuned organ can play these modulations, and if you'd agree that >>>the lute's notes matches those of the organ, you'd agree the lute >>>can play the modulation. But it appears I've lost you one step >>>before, as you don't seem to agree the lute can match the organ note >>>by note. Because of the straight frets: >>> >>>the semitone fret intervals on each string do not follow precisely >>>the same sequence of diatonic and chromatic intervals as you move up >>>the fingerboard >>><< >>> >>> >>>No, you're right, a lute with straight frets is not as perfect as an >>>organ, but it isn't quite bad either. My simple look on things is >>>purely practical. If meantone is used by other instruments, how do I >>>tune my lute to match these? >>>Let's assume 1/4 comma MT, deviations from ET in cents: >>> >>>Eb = 21 >>>Bb = 17 >>>F = 14 >>>C = 10 >>>G = 7 >>>D = 3 >>>A = 0 >>>E = -3 >>>B = -7 >>>F# = -10 >>>C# = -14 >>>G# = -17 >>>D# = -21 >>> >>>Lute in g' >>>Fret = note = cents deviation >>> >>>First course: >>>0 = G = 7 >>>1 = G# = -24 >>>2 = A = -7 >>>3 = Bb = 10 >>>4 = B = -14 >>>5 = C = 3 >>> >>>Second course: >>>0 = D = 3 >>>1 = Eb = 18 >>>2 = E = -6 >>>3 = F = 11 >>>4 = F# = -13 >>>5 = G = 4 >>> >>>Third course: >>>0 = A = 0 >>>1 = Bb = 17 >>>2 = B = -7 >>>3 = C = 10 >>>4 = C# = -14 >>>5 = D = 3 >>> >>>Fourth course: >>>0 = F = 14 >>>1 = F# = -24 >>>2 = G = -7 >>>3 = G# = -31 >>>4 = A = -14 >>>5 = Bb = 3 >>> >>>Fifth course: >>>0 = C = 10 >>>1 = C# = -24 >>>2 = D = -7 >>>3 = Eb = 11 >>>4 = E = -13 >>>5 = F = 4 >>> >>>This gives the following ideal fret positions on all five courses: >>> >>>First fret: -24, 18, 17, -24, -24 >>>Two positions: high is in agreement, low equally so. >>> >>>Second fret: -7, -6, -7, -7, -7 >>>Perfect enough for me. >>> >>>Third fret: 10, 11, 10, -31, 11 >>>Ouch for the G# on the fourth course. Perfect Ab, but otherwise a >>>note to avoid. The high fret positions are in agreement, though. >>> >>>Fourth fret: -14, -13, -14, -14, -13 >>>Perfect enough for me. >>> >>
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Depends. Though people debate this issue, liuto in Scarlatti Vivaldi land generally meant mandolin, you can read Tylers book for the different tunings, I use 6 double courses. So arciliuto is an octave too low, and is in octaves with the fiddles . Having said that, it sounds reasonably nice, though I would not use that articulation myself, and transposing does occur in Vivaldi concerti. And often in Vivaldi it is hard to say exactly what was what, especially with the reed instruments. It is very cute on mandolin, esp if you can find some good gut or silk strings. Lead mutes a must. dt At 06:30 PM 11/13/2007, you wrote: >Is there any advantage on playing such an instrument in Vivaldi? > > > > > The soloist is Luca Pianca, of "Il Giardino Armonico" fame. He usually > > plays > > single strung, like many of his peers. > > > > > > > Bruno Correia wrote: > > > > > >> Is this a baroque lute? > > > > > > It is, but probably not what you mean by "baroque lute." It's > > > probably best described as a liuto attiorbato. It's configured as a > > > single-strung archlute in A. > > > > > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF4GKIILF_U > > >> > > >> Seems to be single strung through out... > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > >--
[LUTE] Re: capo on third fret guitar
Good for you, Joshua. I hope you continue to play, as lute music is so wonderful and rewarding. If I can explain some of the responses from this list, to your note about using a capo on the 3rd fret, it seems as though there are some who think a lute is basically tuned in g. Actually, there are bass lutes in D and E, tenor lutes in F, F# and G, alto lutes in A, soprano lutes in c and a high d, even octave lutes in an octave higher that g. Members of this list play all those various sized lutes, so to have the notion that raising the pitch a minor third makes a guitar lore lute-like is not true. I even play a vihuela in Bb! I think the list was saying that because you tune your guitar in g, it does not in effect make it more lute-like, as there is not standard pitch or size of lutes. It is true that many of us play "g" lutes, but if you look at the surviving 10 course lutes, most are a lengthy 66 or 67 cm, making them suited for E, as your guitar is tuned. Those longer E lutes for some players can be somewhat more awkward to play as compared to g lutes, due to the length. Alto instruments in "a" are easier yet to play for certain repertoire, due to the shorter length. Publishers have often [mostly in the past] made tablature editions, with parallel staff notation, using a "g" instrument in the transcription. Some did it for an E instrument, some have done it for alto in a. So, in order to make your guitar work for this wonderful music, I hope you can understand that the relative pitch does not in any way make music any more lute-like. Be sure to tune the 3rd string down a half step THEN the music will sound more like a lute, as the relative tunings will be correct. Keep playing! I hope someday you can get a lute. ed At 05:50 PM 11/13/2007 -0800, Joshua E. Horn wrote: >I don't know.. I put a capo on the 3rd fret of my guitar and got the >relative tuning of a Ren. Lute.. it seems to work with the tabs Im >reading. >-- > Joshua E. Horn > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >-- >http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.30/1127 - Release Date: >11/12/2007 9:19 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
Re Luca Pianca's single-strung liuto attiorbato in A, Bruno asks: > Is there any advantage on playing such an instrument in Vivaldi? I suspect the primary advantage of a small instrument is that it's easy to travel with it. But in late baroque music, where the continuo lines tend to lie higher than in earlier music, an archlute in A has a minor advantage over a G instrument, at least in execution. Whether having one more note at the top is worth the loss of resonance from the smaller string mass is another question. On Nov 13, 2007, at 6:40 PM, David Tayler wrote: > Though people debate this issue, liuto in Scarlatti Vivaldi land > generally meant mandolin, you can read Tylers book for the different > tunings, I use 6 double courses. I believe this is dated, or perhaps just backward. Tyler will tell you that there was no soprano "liuto" in Italy, and when Vivaldi wanted mandolino he wrote "mandolino." And I believe Vivaldi's "liuto" parts contain continuo parts in the tutti sections (Malipiero left these parts out of his landmark Vivaldi edition), written in bass clef, which would be silly for a mandolino. There's no reason not to think that when Vivaldi wrote "liuto" he meant "archlute," which is what Zamboni meant by "leuto" in 1750 and what Gianoncelli meant when he titled his 1650 archlute collection "Il Liuto." -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: capo on third fret guitar
And why wouldn't it work without the capo? Ed Martin has addressed the lute size (and the ever elusive but false "G"eeness obsession of 20 -21st century lutenists) succinctly and completely. I would only add that one reason for the use of tabulature is precisely BECAUSE the "G" pitch was but one of many legitimate pitches for lutes and vihuelas, and learning all the transpositions necessary from one arbitrarily selected default pitch was unworkable for most players. As a professional player years ago, I did learn to read double-staff notated music for lutes in G. As a previously trained classical guitarist it wasn't hard to read staff notated A lute- just pretend to play a guitar with a 7th, high "a" string. Having bass viol experience made reading "D" bass lute from staff workable. But the pain in the butt factor is obvious- that's why a system that essentially uses a blueprint of what goes on on the fingerboard is so all inclusive and wonderful, at least for solo music reading pleasure and learning. The important thing, of course, is that you are playing. Just don't restrict your options for chimerical reasons. >I don't know.. I put a capo on the 3rd fret of my guitar and got the >relative tuning of a Ren. Lute.. it seems to work with the tabs Im >reading. >-- > Joshua E. Horn > [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi
I wrote: > Tyler will tell > you that there was no soprano "liuto" in Italy, meaning in the 18th century > and when Vivaldi > wanted mandolino he wrote "mandolino." And I believe Vivaldi's > "liuto" parts contain continuo parts in the tutti sections (Malipiero > left these parts out of his landmark Vivaldi edition), written in > bass clef, which would be silly for a mandolino. There's no reason > not to think that when Vivaldi wrote "liuto" he meant "archlute," > which is what Zamboni meant by "leuto" in 1750 I meant 1718, of course. > and what Gianoncelli > meant when he titled his 1650 archlute collection "Il Liuto." -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
