[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Books
On Wednesday 02 April 2008 21:53, Christopher Stetson rattled on the keyboard: > Here are links for the Dover editions: > http://store.doverpublications.com/048629935x.html > http://store.doverpublications.com/0486422445.html > > >>> Jeffrey Noonan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4/2/2008 1:12 pm >>> > Take care with these Dover editions. They contain many mistakes and are difficult to read (even if you have excellent eyes) because the lute tab is printed in a tiny font. And because of the guitar staff there is again page turning problems.The stainer edition is much better but ridiculous expensive. The Broude facsimiles are still the best editions and very readable. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Books
Dear Rob & all: I have to say that one must approach even the sainted S&B editions with a bit of caution. The poetry retains many of the 'corrections' perpetrated by Fellows, who should be commended for his pioneering work but scolded for messing with the texts. It is worth the bother to check the S&B editions against the facsimiles, Diana Poulton's Dowland biography (with song-by-song analysis), and Doughtie's _Lyrics from English Airs_. It seems like a great deal of trouble just to sing some lute songs, doesn't it? Best wishes, Ron Andrico http://www.mignarda.com > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:47:58 +0100> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's > Books> > Stainer and Bell in the UK have published all Dowland's songs in > reliable> modern editions - including lute tablature and transcription:> > http://www.stainer.co.uk/dowland.html> > Rob MacKillop> > --> > To get on or > off this list see list information at> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html _ Pack up or back up-use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn how. hthttp://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_packup_042008 --
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Rob Sorry, I can't quite leave-off, you got me thinking too much. Of course, like everyone else, I can't help thinking about what lute I would like next, but also, how I wish I was a little more focussed and less dilettante (imore in the French use of this word (i.e. going where momentary pleasure takes me, rather than concentrating on one period and a few pieces at a time) which makes me the complete amateur that I am. Thus of course, my words for you, are for myself. Difficult for it to be otherwise. Le 2 avr. 08 =E0 20:21, Rob MacKillop a ecrit : > Thanks to everyone for their input. I've decided instead to get a > Fender > Stratocaster - covers most things from Francesco to Jimi, and costs > a lot > less. > Why not, I have recently been sorely tempted to take-up the Pipa or even the Guqin, silk-stringed of course. After a few minutes of the silk Guqin you start to float, and not an opium poppy in sight Mi'lud I even discussed string issues with one of the few remaining silk string makers, very enlightening actually, not unlike the synthetics/ gut debate on our lists. > Jean-Marie - I used to have an 8c (seems like a thousand years ago) > on which > (at the advice of Jacob Lindberg) I swaped the bottom two courses > around. I > just never felt happy with it, and soon sold it. Everyone is > different, > thankfully. > > 9c - why play a 9 when a 10 opens up so much more? So, Anthony, I > will not > be phoning Matt Wadsworth who has a 9c Gottlieb for sale (I'm sure > it will > be a great buy for somebody). > Oups I forgot your bad experience with the Buchenberg ... However, I was mainly thinking about your decision not to change to TI, and I wonder whether Dowland did not change to TO at the same time as he took up the 9c, as Martin claims he did (I mean take up the 9c, never adopting the 8c), In fact, I was really wondering about the option of a 10c that could double as a 9c with double top string. Thus a lute having all the potential of a 10c lute plus the more curious pleasure of delving into the 9c repertoire. The string length of that particular lute was, I think, too long for your purpose, although I wondered about the possibility (if it had a double top string) of transforming it the otherway, into a 9/10c lute. In short, I was wondering whether a 9/10c lute would not be an ineteresting possibility, for myself included (after all 10/11c lutes are common, my future lute will be one of those). I am already considering a future 10c lute, and I would probably still go for a 10/11c, but this time with more accent on the 10c. (about the top string arrangement on an 11c lute, presumably the top two single strings developed from transforming 10c lutes to 11c, and yet Frei and Maler lutes seem to have been transformed directly into 11c lutes. with this top string set-up. Were there any 10c lutes with this set- up transformed from 9c lutes? There was a brief discussion of this issue when I sent the message about the Julian Bream lute to the list. However, I don't quite remember the conclusions that were drawn.) > It has been interesting thinking out loud on this list. Lots of good > experience here to draw on. Much appreciated. I seem to be > experiencing my > own renaissance as a lute player. By the end of this year I'll have > an 11c, > a theorbo and a 7c (or 10c!). That should keep me busy enough! In your place (but of course, I am not) I would go for the lute that really pleased you in the first place, (the 10c from MP) and that, as you say, opens up more transitional music. You are engaged at present in the Baroque repertoire. Why not explore in detail the shifts from transitional to Renaissance (i am thinking you will be going in that direction) in a more systematic manner. It seems that is more where your interest lies. Are you sure you need to explore the Italian repertoire in TO, right now? If you want to carry on into earlier repertoire, then why not eventually get a 7c lute. You can find these fairly cheap second hand, if it is a secondary interest for you. I may be wrong, but a degree of specialization could be a good thing (not overextending one's repertoire). OK I am trying to persuade myself, but with some thoughts for you. Notice that Jacob was able to accompany Emma on his Rauwolf in 10c mode, in the Renaissance and transitional repertoire, although his lute was 69 cm. KIRKBY, Emma: Musique and Sweet Poetrie - Jewels from Europe around 1600 http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=BIS-SACD-1505 Jakob played Dowland solos and Robert Johnson, as well as Kapsberger, at a recent lute society meeting N=B082 p.7. Ok now I'll leave off Best regards Anthony > > Rob > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Dear Anthony and All, I assume the "Martin" you refer to is me. I don't remember ever saying that I thought Dowland changed from 7c to 9c without ever using an 8c, or that any of these changes coincided with his change from TI to TO. We simply don't know the answer to any of these questions. I do think it likely that the change from TI to TO is related to the increase in number of courses, and also to the change in musical style from equal-voiced polyphony to a more treble-and-bass style. Best wishes, Martin P.S. A 10c can always be retuned to look like a 9c lute, but with a 10/11c lute you have to change the nut and all the strings - not something you want to do every week. Well, actually you could compromise on absolute pitch and leave the 5th to 10th courses as they are, putting thicker strings on the first four courses to allow them to be tuned down. Just to make this clear, imagine your 10c lute is in nominal A, so the 6th course is the same as in the Dm tuning 11c version: 10c > 11c 1. a' f' (down a major third) 2. e' d' (down a tone) 3. b a (down a tone) 4. g f (down a tone) 5. d d 6. A A 7. G G 8. F F 9. E E 10.D D 11.C If you did this with a 67cm lute you would probably be tuning the top string to f' in the old tuning so in the new tuning it would be d' flat, a very low pitch for this string length. Anthony Hind wrote: However, I was mainly thinking about your decision not to change to TI, and I wonder whether Dowland did not change to TO at the same time as he took up the 9c, as Martin claims he did (I mean take up the 9c, never adopting the 8c), -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
On Apr 3, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: Rob Sorry, I can't quite leave-off, you got me thinking too much. Of course, like everyone else, I can't help thinking about what lute I would like next, but also, how I wish I was a little more focussed and less dilettante (imore in the French use of this word (i.e. going where momentary pleasure takes me, rather than concentrating on one period and a few pieces at a time) which makes me the complete amateur that I am. I can really sympathize with this. I've concentrated on one period and one instrument for years, and the danger in that is, for the average listener, a lot of the music sounds the same, and stylistically, it is. I've been working on Renaissance cittern lately to add more variety to my concerts, and keeping the two techniques up to standard is a lot of work. I would have at least 6 different citterns if I could, but I seriously doubt whether I could keep the different techniques up to the necessary level. This is one of the reasons I play transcriptions - it's a compromise, but it seems to be a necessary one for the type of work I get, and to get more work - pleasing the general listener as well as the more educated one. Doc To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland's Books
I bow to your superior knowledge, Ron. It is an area I will be looking into eventually. The S&B editions seem a good place to start, plus the facsimiles. Have the Poulton biog. Rob On 03/04/2008, Ron Andrico <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dear Rob & all: > > I have to say that one must approach even the sainted S&B editions with a > bit of caution. The poetry retains many of the 'corrections' perpetrated by > Fellows, who should be commended for his pioneering work but scolded for > messing with the texts. It is worth the bother to check the S&B > editions against the facsimiles, Diana Poulton's Dowland biography (with > song-by-song analysis), and Doughtie's _Lyrics from English Airs_. It seems > like a great deal of trouble just to sing some lute songs, doesn't it? > > Best wishes, > > Ron Andrico > http://www.mignarda.com > > > > Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 07:47:58 +0100 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dowland's Books > > > > Stainer and Bell in the UK have published all Dowland's songs in > reliable > > modern editions - including lute tablature and transcription: > > http://www.stainer.co.uk/dowland.html > > > > Rob MacKillop > > > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > Pack up or back up-use SkyDrive to transfer files or keep extra copies. Learn > how. > --
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Jean-Marie, I am glad somebody agrees with me on this issue. Theis topic, 8 course lutes, was discussed some tome ago on this list. I also have an 8 course lute., and I like it ever so much more than a 7 course lute I once had. ed At 01:02 PM 4/3/2008 +0200, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: > Martin, > >I totally agree with all of that, including your non-ostracizing the poor >8c ;-) ! >So much music, Elizabethan and continental as well, is designed for 8c >that it seems more than strange to reject this type of lute. If it's only >a matter of personnal taste, then I can understand and accept it, but I >can think of no music-ologic-al reasons to do so. >Obviously, the 9c lived a very short life, a quarter of a century at >best, but 7c and 8c lasted much longer, if the repertoire can be an >indication af anything regarding instruments in use at the time... >Another obvious thing is that lute players used several instruments simply >because it was easier, and sort of cheaper, to get them then than now. > >Just my tupence (let's make it three pence ;-)) thought on that matter, > >Jean-Marie > >=== 03-04-2008 12:29:04 === > > >Dear Anthony and All, > > > >I assume the "Martin" you refer to is me. I don't remember ever saying > >that I thought Dowland changed from 7c to 9c without ever using an 8c, > >or that any of these changes coincided with his change from TI to TO. > >We simply don't know the answer to any of these questions. > > > >I do think it likely that the change from TI to TO is related to the > >increase in number of courses, and also to the change in musical style > >from equal-voiced polyphony to a more treble-and-bass style. > > > >Best wishes, > > > >Martin > > > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://poirierjm.free.fr >03-04-2008 > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG. >Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date: 4/2/2008 >4:14 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Should we make a "Club of the 8 course proud users" ? Val (is it an half penny idea ?) ;-))) - Original Message - From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms Jean-Marie, I am glad somebody agrees with me on this issue. Theis topic, 8 course lutes, was discussed some tome ago on this list. I also have an 8 course lute., and I like it ever so much more than a 7 course lute I once had. ed At 01:02 PM 4/3/2008 +0200, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Martin, I totally agree with all of that, including your non-ostracizing the poor 8c ;-) ! So much music, Elizabethan and continental as well, is designed for 8c that it seems more than strange to reject this type of lute. If it's only a matter of personnal taste, then I can understand and accept it, but I can think of no music-ologic-al reasons to do so. Obviously, the 9c lived a very short life, a quarter of a century at best, but 7c and 8c lasted much longer, if the repertoire can be an indication af anything regarding instruments in use at the time... Another obvious thing is that lute players used several instruments simply because it was easier, and sort of cheaper, to get them then than now. Just my tupence (let's make it three pence ;-)) thought on that matter, Jean-Marie === 03-04-2008 12:29:04 === >Dear Anthony and All, > >I assume the "Martin" you refer to is me. I don't remember ever saying >that I thought Dowland changed from 7c to 9c without ever using an 8c, >or that any of these changes coincided with his change from TI to TO. >We simply don't know the answer to any of these questions. > >I do think it likely that the change from TI to TO is related to the >increase in number of courses, and also to the change in musical style >from equal-voiced polyphony to a more treble-and-bass style. > >Best wishes, > >Martin > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 03-04-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date: 4/2/2008 4:14 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Dear Martin I did not intend to say that you suggested that the change from TI to TO occurred for Dowland with the change from 7c to 9c. I quote myself, "However, I was mainly thinking about your decision not to change to TI, and I wonder whether Dowland did not change to TO at the same time as he took up the 9c, as Martin claims he did (I mean take up the 9c, never adopting the 8c)," My brackets make that quite clear, or at least I thought they did. "I mean take up the 9c, never adopting the 8c", I was making precise what part of the preceding sentencce I was assoiciating with you, "the change from 7c to 9c", but not that this corresponded to the change from TI to TO. I know you consider that the TI/TO change, and the change from horizontal to raised, is related to the increase in the number of courses (I did not read at what moment you though this took place), but I have some doubts about that (see my PS). Many lutists do play TI on 10 course lutes. There is no direct and obligatory connection, therefore. This is a complex issue, and there is the lute angle, the thumb I/O position, and the right hand change from close to the rose / close to the bridge, to consider. Are all these related, or independent? Research widened to instruments that are the lute's cousins might perhaps shed some light on this issue, but I will return to the question of RH position in another message. Although I did believe you stated that Dowland had played the 9c lute, and I did jump to the conclusion that you meant he went straight from 7c to 9c. The point was not there, however, and I take entire responsibilty for the idea that the change to TO might have corresponded with that change to 9c, and perhaps the type of string. It could also have occurred at the introduction of a loaded bass string on a 7c, but 7c lutes did exist quite early on with 6c lutes, presumably without such a change. I was not putting forward a formal argument, just a speculation. I would have liked to know, however, a little more about the change form 9c to 10c, and whether a 9/10c was feasible. Best regards Anthony PS We might note that a change of position from horizontal to almost vertical also occurred with the Pipa, a cousin of our lute, without any change in the number of strings, just corresponding to the change from plectrum to fingers, and TO, perhpas related to the increase in the number of frets on the lute belly. In this case the raised position seems to have allowed the player to use much higher frets. Le 3 avr. 08 =E0 12:29, Martin Shepherd a ecrit : > Dear Anthony and All, > > I assume the "Martin" you refer to is me. I don't remember ever > saying that I thought Dowland changed from 7c to 9c without ever > using an 8c, or that any of these changes coincided with his change > from TI to TO. We simply don't know the answer to any of these > questions. > > I do think it likely that the change from TI to TO is related to > the increase in number of courses, and also to the change in > musical style from equal-voiced polyphony to a more treble-and-bass > style. > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > P.S. A 10c can always be retuned to look like a 9c lute, but with > a 10/11c lute you have to change the nut and all the strings - not > something you want to do every week. Well, actually you could > compromise on absolute pitch and leave the 5th to 10th courses as > they are, putting thicker strings on the first four courses to > allow them to be tuned down. Just to make this clear, imagine your > 10c lute is in nominal A, so the 6th course is the same as in the > Dm tuning 11c version: > 10c > 11c > 1. a' f' (down a major third) > 2. e' d' (down a tone) > 3. b a (down a tone) > 4. g f (down a tone) > 5. d d > 6. A A > 7. G G > 8. F F > 9. E E > 10.D D > 11.C > > If you did this with a 67cm lute you would probably be tuning the > top string to f' in the old tuning so in the new tuning it would be > d' flat, a very low pitch for this string length. > > > Anthony Hind wrote: > >> >> However, I was mainly thinking about your decision not to change >> to TI, and I wonder whether Dowland >> did not change to TO at the same time as he took up the 9c, as >> Martin claims he did (I mean take up the 9c, never adopting the 8c), >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Martin I think quick and rather careless reading throughof this dialoque between yourself and Ed, brought me to the conclusion that you were suggesting Dowland might have gone from 7c to 9c. Nevertheless, i knew I had read something that gave me that idea: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg18164.html Then again you underlined the importance of the 9c here: http://www.mail-archive.com/lute@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg10564.html I do tend to jump to conclusions, but that is because I always try to link up various remarks and ideas to draw conclusions, and occasionally, I wire them up the wrong way. Sorry for jumping to conclusions Anthony Le 3 avr. 08 =E0 12:29, Martin Shepherd a ecrit : > Dear Anthony and All, > > I assume the "Martin" you refer to is me. I don't remember ever > saying that I thought Dowland changed from 7c to 9c without ever > using an 8c, or that any of these changes coincided with his change > from TI to TO. We simply don't know the answer to any of these > questions. > > I do think it likely that the change from TI to TO is related to > the increase in number of courses, and also to the change in > musical style from equal-voiced polyphony to a more treble-and-bass > style. > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > P.S. A 10c can always be retuned to look like a 9c lute, but with > a 10/11c lute you have to change the nut and all the strings - not > something you want to do every week. Well, actually you could > compromise on absolute pitch and leave the 5th to 10th courses as > they are, putting thicker strings on the first four courses to > allow them to be tuned down. Just to make this clear, imagine your > 10c lute is in nominal A, so the 6th course is the same as in the > Dm tuning 11c version: > 10c > 11c > 1. a' f' (down a major third) > 2. e' d' (down a tone) > 3. b a (down a tone) > 4. g f (down a tone) > 5. d d > 6. A A > 7. G G > 8. F F > 9. E E > 10.D D > 11.C > > If you did this with a 67cm lute you would probably be tuning the > top string to f' in the old tuning so in the new tuning it would be > d' flat, a very low pitch for this string length. > > > Anthony Hind wrote: > >> >> However, I was mainly thinking about your decision not to change >> to TI, and I wonder whether Dowland >> did not change to TO at the same time as he took up the 9c, as >> Martin claims he did (I mean take up the 9c, never adopting the 8c), >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Jean-Marie and Ed, No derogatory remarks have come from me on the 8c. Again, I would just like to say that if someone is hoping to play Francesco and Dowland on the same lute, then 7c is surely the better choice, with the 7c in D, that covers much 8c music with the possibility of stopping the bass course. There are less additional sympathetic resonances to colour the sound. It is also historically plausible, while an 8c for Francesco probably is not; but perhaps I am wrong there. It has been so frequently of late. On the other hand, if a lutist wants to cover from Dowland to transitional, the 10c is a better compromise (as shown by JaKob's Rauwolf). The 8c does not really allow that, does it? I was taking account of what Rob said he was hoping to do. Also I will admit that I have usually heard 8c lute with wirewounds, and the problem of sympathetic resonances are even worse. I think you and Ed have your lutes gut strung, so the problem would be much less. I suppose for someone just specializing in later Elizabethan music and its close European equivalents, an 8c strung entirely in gut could be a good solution. This is what Jacob Heringman uses on his Jane Pickeringe's Lute book, on his 8 course Martin Haycock after Venere. see for example: Track 04-Almaine by francis Cuttinge (1:35) http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-pickering/04.m3u Now compare this with the 7c Gerle by the same maker, both are strung in gut, and with same lutist of course: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-siena/07.m3u Do you think the 8c sound would function well with the Fantasia? It is a question of taste, no doubt, but the maker himself, Martin Haycock (while preferring a 6c lute) advised the 7c for this multipurpose, and he also said that he was less happy with 8c lutes in general, exactly for the reason mentioned above. Indeed he told me that the two ideal lutes he would like to own himself, would be the 11c and the 6c, both which he considered had acheived the ideal balance of poise and sound before having become over complexified. So no derogatory remarks implied, but some justification, only slightly musicological. Best regards Anthony PS Ed my mails rebounce, so you will receive this through the list Le 3 avr. 08 à 13:02, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit : To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Ok Valéry, get your Lagavulin ready then !!! ;-) Jean-Marie === 03-04-2008 14:02:30 === >Should we make a "Club of the 8 course proud users" ? >Val (is it an half penny idea ?) >;-))) > >- Original Message - >From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" > >Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:38 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms > > >> Jean-Marie, >> >> I am glad somebody agrees with me on this issue. Theis topic, 8 course >> lutes, was discussed some tome ago on this list. I also have an 8 course >> lute., and I like it ever so much more than a 7 course lute I once had. >> >> ed >> >> >> At 01:02 PM 4/3/2008 +0200, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: >>> Martin, >>> >>>I totally agree with all of that, including your non-ostracizing the poor >>>8c ;-) ! >>>So much music, Elizabethan and continental as well, is designed for 8c >>>that it seems more than strange to reject this type of lute. If it's only >>>a matter of personnal taste, then I can understand and accept it, but I >>>can think of no music-ologic-al reasons to do so. >>>Obviously, the 9c lived a very short life, a quarter of a century at >>>best, but 7c and 8c lasted much longer, if the repertoire can be an >>>indication af anything regarding instruments in use at the time... >>>Another obvious thing is that lute players used several instruments simply >>>because it was easier, and sort of cheaper, to get them then than now. >>> >>>Just my tupence (let's make it three pence ;-)) thought on that matter, >>> >>>Jean-Marie >>> >>>=== 03-04-2008 12:29:04 === >>> >>> >Dear Anthony and All, >>> > >>> >I assume the "Martin" you refer to is me. I don't remember ever saying >>> >that I thought Dowland changed from 7c to 9c without ever using an 8c, >>> >or that any of these changes coincided with his change from TI to TO. >>> >We simply don't know the answer to any of these questions. >>> > >>> >I do think it likely that the change from TI to TO is related to the >>> >increase in number of courses, and also to the change in musical style >>> >from equal-voiced polyphony to a more treble-and-bass style. >>> > >>> >Best wishes, >>> > >>> >Martin >>> > >>> >>> >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>http://poirierjm.free.fr >>>03-04-2008 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >>>-- >>>No virus found in this incoming message. >>>Checked by AVG. >>>Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date: 4/2/2008 >>>4:14 PM >> >> >> >> Edward Martin >> 2817 East 2nd Street >> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> voice: (218) 728-1202 >> >> >> >> > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 03-04-2008
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Yes and often using wire-wounds, However, Jacob Heringman, if we begin naming names, specializes in this repertoire. Anhtony Le 3 avr. 08 à 15:54, Nigel Solomon a écrit : Anthony Hind wrote: Jean-Marie and Ed, No derogatory remarks have come from me on the 8c. Again, I would just like to say that if someone is hoping to play Francesco and Dowland on the same lute, then 7c is surely the better choice, with the 7c in D, that covers much 8c music with the possibility of stopping the bass course. There are less additional sympathetic resonances to colour the sound. It is also historically plausible, while an 8c for Francesco probably is not; but perhaps I am wrong there. It has been so frequently of late. On the other hand, if a lutist wants to cover from Dowland to transitional, the 10c is a better compromise (as shown by JaKob's Rauwolf). The 8c does not really allow that, does it? I was taking account of what Rob said he was hoping to do. Also I will admit that I have usually heard 8c lute with wirewounds, and the problem of sympathetic resonances are even worse. I think you and Ed have your lutes gut strung, so the problem would be much less. I suppose for someone just specializing in later Elizabethan music and its close European equivalents, an 8c strung entirely in gut could be a good solution. This is what Jacob Heringman uses on his Jane Pickeringe's Lute book, on his 8 course Martin Haycock after Venere. see for example: Track 04-Almaine by francis Cuttinge (1:35) http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-pickering/04.m3u Now compare this with the 7c Gerle by the same maker, both are strung in gut, and with same lutist of course: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-siena/07.m3u Do you think the 8c sound would function well with the Fantasia? It is a question of taste, no doubt, but the maker himself, Martin Haycock (while preferring a 6c lute) advised the 7c for this multipurpose, and he also said that he was less happy with 8c lutes in general, exactly for the reason mentioned above. Indeed he told me that the two ideal lutes he would like to own himself, would be the 11c and the 6c, both which he considered had acheived the ideal balance of poise and sound before having become over complexified. So no derogatory remarks implied, but some justification, only slightly musicological. Best regards Anthony PS Ed my mails rebounce, so you will receive this through the list Le 3 avr. 08 à 13:02, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit : To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Sorry to stir things up, but most "top" lute players (POD, Jacob Lindberg, Hoppy Smith, Eugène Ferré, to name but a few) invariably choose 8 course rather than say 7 or 10 course lutes in concerts when they play a bit of everything (from dalza through to 17th century composers in a single concert. Surely there must be a reason? Most players cannot be bothered to bring along 3 or 4 lutes and if they are to play everything on one lute, 9 times out of 10 its an 8 course. I think therefore that if you only have 1 renaissance lute you should have an 8 course, even though I am fully aware you lose alot of the subtleties by not playing "exactly" the right instrument for all repertoires, you have to compromise. Nigel
[LUTE] Re: Publishers of Contemporary Lute Music
In a very brief reading, I found the music pleasant and quite idiomatic. I'll look at more on another day when it isn't bedtime. In way of constructive criticism, I would say forget the two part rhythmic signs. That is very confusing and counter-intuitive. All traditional lute music is written with one set of rhythmic signs above the tab. If you choose to buck the system and do it a new way you risk loosing potential players. If you feel the need to show a musical line, you can do it with tenuto marks from cypher to cypher. On Apr 3, 2008, at 5:37 PM, Gilbert Isbin wrote: > I am composing works for Renaissance lute. Some examples can be > found on http://users.pandora.be/gilbert.isbin/lutecompositions.html > Perhaps you someone of you can help me? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
No problem, Anthony. I did not feel "fussed" at all about this 8c business. I quite understand what you mean, but my conclusion will nevertheless be that a compromise will remain a compromise, i.e. something imperfect and by nature unsatisfying... So, after that, it's only a matter of how much you accept to give up, but what remains will necessarily be... a compromise ! (La Palisse was French, wasn't he? So was Descartes and Coluche ). Only one way out : the basic outfit should be something like one 6 c., one 7c., one 8c., one 10 c., one 11c. and more if you, and your banker, feel like it ! ;-) All the best, Jean-Marie === 03-04-2008 15:30:42 === >Jean-Marie and Ed, > No derogatory remarks have come from me on the 8c. Again, I would >just like to say that if someone is hoping to play Francesco and >Dowland on the same lute, then 7c is surely the better choice, with >the 7c in D, that covers much 8c music with the possibility of >stopping the bass course. There are less additional sympathetic >resonances to colour the sound. It is also historically plausible, >while an 8c for Francesco probably is not; but perhaps I am wrong >there. It has been so frequently of late. On the other hand, if a >lutist wants to cover from Dowland to transitional, the 10c is a >better compromise (as shown by JaKob's Rauwolf). The 8c does not >really allow that, does it? > >I was taking account of what Rob said he was hoping to do. > >Also I will admit that I have usually heard 8c lute with wirewounds, >and the problem of sympathetic resonances are even worse. I think you >and Ed have your lutes gut strung, so the problem would be much less. > >I suppose for someone just specializing in later Elizabethan music >and its close European equivalents, an 8c strung entirely in gut >could be a good solution. >This is what Jacob Heringman uses on his Jane Pickeringe's Lute book, >on his 8 course Martin Haycock after Venere. see for example: >Track 04-Almaine by francis Cuttinge (1:35) >http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-pickering/04.m3u > >Now compare this with the 7c Gerle by the same maker, both are strung >in gut, and with same lutist of course: >http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-siena/07.m3u > >Do you think the 8c sound would function well with the Fantasia? It >is a question of taste, no doubt, but the maker himself, Martin >Haycock (while preferring a 6c lute) >advised the 7c for this multipurpose, and he also said that he was >less happy with 8c lutes in general, exactly for the reason mentioned >above. > >Indeed he told me that the two ideal lutes he would like to own >himself, would be the 11c and the 6c, both which he considered had >acheived the ideal balance of poise >and sound before having become over complexified. So no derogatory >remarks implied, but some justification, only slightly musicological. >Best regards >Anthony >PS Ed my mails rebounce, so you will receive this through the list > > >Le 3 avr. 08 à 13:02, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit : > >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 03-04-2008
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
I think we can agree on that, but probably not my Bank manager, who really turns out to be my good lady wife ... I am having trouble persuading her that a 10c might be an absolute necessity, without which life would become utter gloom and doom. And as you say, a compromise is always that, when Jacob came to Caen, bringing along only one lute for the Sienna music, he brought his 6c (and even then he brought the 60 cm, when he had told me that 64 cm was really a minimum for expressiveness, so he still made a compromise); but I doubt if he gave the 7c any consideration at all. All the best Anthony Le 3 avr. 08 à 17:10, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit : No problem, Anthony. I did not feel "fussed" at all about this 8c business. I quite understand what you mean, but my conclusion will nevertheless be that a compromise will remain a compromise, i.e. something imperfect and by nature unsatisfying... So, after that, it's only a matter of how much you accept to give up, but what remains will necessarily be... a compromise ! (La Palisse was French, wasn't he? So was Descartes and Coluche ). Only one way out : the basic outfit should be something like one 6 c., one 7c., one 8c., one 10 c., one 11c. and more if you, and your banker, feel like it ! ;-) All the best, Jean-Marie === 03-04-2008 15:30:42 === Jean-Marie and Ed, No derogatory remarks have come from me on the 8c. Again, I would just like to say that if someone is hoping to play Francesco and Dowland on the same lute, then 7c is surely the better choice, with the 7c in D, that covers much 8c music with the possibility of stopping the bass course. There are less additional sympathetic resonances to colour the sound. It is also historically plausible, while an 8c for Francesco probably is not; but perhaps I am wrong there. It has been so frequently of late. On the other hand, if a lutist wants to cover from Dowland to transitional, the 10c is a better compromise (as shown by JaKob's Rauwolf). The 8c does not really allow that, does it? I was taking account of what Rob said he was hoping to do. Also I will admit that I have usually heard 8c lute with wirewounds, and the problem of sympathetic resonances are even worse. I think you and Ed have your lutes gut strung, so the problem would be much less. I suppose for someone just specializing in later Elizabethan music and its close European equivalents, an 8c strung entirely in gut could be a good solution. This is what Jacob Heringman uses on his Jane Pickeringe's Lute book, on his 8 course Martin Haycock after Venere. see for example: Track 04-Almaine by francis Cuttinge (1:35) http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-pickering/04.m3u Now compare this with the 7c Gerle by the same maker, both are strung in gut, and with same lutist of course: http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/heringman-siena/07.m3u Do you think the 8c sound would function well with the Fantasia? It is a question of taste, no doubt, but the maker himself, Martin Haycock (while preferring a 6c lute) advised the 7c for this multipurpose, and he also said that he was less happy with 8c lutes in general, exactly for the reason mentioned above. Indeed he told me that the two ideal lutes he would like to own himself, would be the 11c and the 6c, both which he considered had acheived the ideal balance of poise and sound before having become over complexified. So no derogatory remarks implied, but some justification, only slightly musicological. Best regards Anthony PS Ed my mails rebounce, so you will receive this through the list Le 3 avr. 08 à 13:02, Jean-Marie Poirier a écrit : = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 03-04-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms
Count me in, Val Kerry "Valéry Sauvage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Should we make a "Club of the 8 course proud users" ? Val (is it an half penny idea ?) ;-))) - Original Message - From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:38 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms > Jean-Marie, > > I am glad somebody agrees with me on this issue. Theis topic, 8 course > lutes, was discussed some tome ago on this list. I also have an 8 course > lute., and I like it ever so much more than a 7 course lute I once had. > > ed > > > At 01:02 PM 4/3/2008 +0200, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: >> Martin, >> >>I totally agree with all of that, including your non-ostracizing the poor >>8c ;-) ! >>So much music, Elizabethan and continental as well, is designed for 8c >>that it seems more than strange to reject this type of lute. If it's only >>a matter of personnal taste, then I can understand and accept it, but I >>can think of no music-ologic-al reasons to do so. >>Obviously, the 9c lived a very short life, a quarter of a century at >>best, but 7c and 8c lasted much longer, if the repertoire can be an >>indication af anything regarding instruments in use at the time... >>Another obvious thing is that lute players used several instruments simply >>because it was easier, and sort of cheaper, to get them then than now. >> >>Just my tupence (let's make it three pence ;-)) thought on that matter, >> >>Jean-Marie >> >>=== 03-04-2008 12:29:04 === >> >> >Dear Anthony and All, >> > >> >I assume the "Martin" you refer to is me. I don't remember ever saying >> >that I thought Dowland changed from 7c to 9c without ever using an 8c, >> >or that any of these changes coincided with his change from TI to TO. >> >We simply don't know the answer to any of these questions. >> > >> >I do think it likely that the change from TI to TO is related to the >> >increase in number of courses, and also to the change in musical style >> >from equal-voiced polyphony to a more treble-and-bass style. >> > >> >Best wishes, >> > >> >Martin >> > >> >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>http://poirierjm.free.fr >>03-04-2008 >> >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG. >>Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date: 4/2/2008 >>4:14 PM > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > > >
[LUTE] 7c at 64 cms
Jean-Marie and Val, I wrote recently in support of the 8-course lute. There are many advantages, and unless you want a house full of lutes, it is a good, all-purpose instrument. That's my hap'orth. My previous exposition on the subject was worth more like tuppence or thruppence. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Valery Sauvage [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 April 2008 13:03 To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms Should we make a "Club of the 8 course proud users" ? Val (is it an half penny idea ?) -o-O-o- -Original Message- From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 April 2008 12:03 To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms Martin, I totally agree with all of that, including your non-ostracizing the poor 8c ;-) ! So much music, Elizabethan and continental as well, is designed for 8c that it seems more than strange to reject this type of lute. If it's only a matter of personnal taste, then I can understand and accept it, but I can think of no music-ologic-al reasons to do so. Obviously, the 9c lived a very short life, a quarter of a century at best, but 7c and 8c lasted much longer, if the repertoire can be an indication af anything regarding instruments in use at the time... Another obvious thing is that lute players used several instruments simply because it was easier, and sort of cheaper, to get them then than now. Just my tupence (let's make it three pence ;-)) thought on that matter, Jean-Marie -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64 cms
I continue to hold the unpopular view that the eight course may slightly slow musical development: If you have any interest in continuo, the non linear bass is a hurdle, and if you wish to play 10c, archlute or theorbo, the course memorization for the bass courses is slowed a bit: you have to think, is that an F or an E? However, all of these issues can be--and are-- dealt with by practice. In a way, it is also a very special lute, for precisely those reasons--the quirky jump, the noted F and D reasonance. So for these reasons, every collector should have one, just not learn on one--if continuo, 10c, archlute is a possibility down the line. For the same reasons, I would not recommend learning harpsichord with a short octave, although it is a cool instrument. I wouldn't play Dowland or Francesco on an eight course for stylistic resons, and that is a big chunk. I hope this won't prevent me from sampling any of the Islay whiskies, including Lagavulin, Laphroaig, Bowmore and Ardbeg, my preferred "four course" > dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64 cms
David You forgot two of my favourite whiskies, Bruichladdich and Clynelish. A friend of mine found a very ancient Bruichladdich at Edinburgh University Celtic association, and was bringing it back to Paris, when at the exit of a tube gate, he found a person in a wheel chair who needed help to get over the gate. My friend put everything down, including the treasured whisky, and when he had helped the fellow through the gate returned to pick-up his goods, and found that his ancient whisky was missing. Since he had told me he was bringing it back, and I was already imagining the exquisite taste in my mouth, I found myself both laughing, and sort of crying as he told me this tale. I imagined this mugger chuckling over the 35 year old Whisky. I only hope he did not cut it down with lemon juice, as many do in Scotland, I am told, calling it Whisky Toddy, or some such. http://www.rampantscotland.com/recipes/blrecipe_toddy.htm It could, of course, be that my friend invented the whole story just to keep the bottle to himself. I had never thought of that, I wonder ... Now I will declare that I love all 8c lutes, if you can find another such bottle for me; but a "one hundred year old" Calvados of a very rich dark green colour (that this friend also found me, bless him), would do as well, I can assure you. No such a friend could not possibly have invented that story. Best wishes Anthony Le 3 avr. 08 =E0 19:56, David Tayler a ecrit : > I continue to hold the unpopular view that the eight course may > slightly slow musical development: If you have any interest in > continuo, the non linear bass is a hurdle, and if you wish to play > 10c, archlute or theorbo, > the course memorization for the bass courses is slowed a bit: you > have to think, is that an F or an E? > However, all of these issues can be--and are-- dealt with by practice. > > In a way, it is also a very special lute, for precisely those > reasons--the quirky jump, the noted F and D reasonance. > So for these reasons, every collector should have one, just not learn > on one--if continuo, 10c, archlute is a possibility down the line. > For the same reasons, I would not recommend learning harpsichord with > a short octave, although it is a cool instrument. > > I wouldn't play Dowland or Francesco on an eight course for stylistic > resons, and that is a big chunk. > > I hope this won't prevent me from sampling any of the Islay whiskies, > including Lagavulin, Laphroaig, Bowmore and Ardbeg, my preferred > "four course" >> > dt > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: 8 course Islay malts
Bruichladdich is also an Islay malt, as the one prefered by David, you can also add Bunnahabhain, Coal Ila and Port Ellen (sleeping distillery, very hard to find a botlle of) and you will have the four other course of an eight course Islay lute wisky (Am I melting everything ?) My preference is Ardbeg first, then Laphroaig (I have a bottle of single cask of this one, waiting for Jean-Marie when he will visit my home) V ;-) - Original Message - From: "Anthony Hind" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "David Tayler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:03 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64 cms David You forgot two of my favourite whiskies, Bruichladdich and Clynelish. A friend of mine found a very ancient Bruichladdich at Edinburgh University Celtic association, and was bringing it back to Paris, when at the exit of a tube gate, he found a person in a wheel chair who needed help to get over the gate. My friend put everything down, including the treasured whisky, and when he had helped the fellow through the gate returned to pick-up his goods, and found that his ancient whisky was missing. Since he had told me he was bringing it back, and I was already imagining the exquisite taste in my mouth, I found myself both laughing, and sort of crying as he told me this tale. I imagined this mugger chuckling over the 35 year old Whisky. I only hope he did not cut it down with lemon juice, as many do in Scotland, I am told, calling it Whisky Toddy, or some such. http://www.rampantscotland.com/recipes/blrecipe_toddy.htm It could, of course, be that my friend invented the whole story just to keep the bottle to himself. I had never thought of that, I wonder ... Now I will declare that I love all 8c lutes, if you can find another such bottle for me; but a "one hundred year old" Calvados of a very rich dark green colour (that this friend also found me, bless him), would do as well, I can assure you. No such a friend could not possibly have invented that story. Best wishes Anthony Le 3 avr. 08 =E0 19:56, David Tayler a ecrit : I continue to hold the unpopular view that the eight course may slightly slow musical development: If you have any interest in continuo, the non linear bass is a hurdle, and if you wish to play 10c, archlute or theorbo, the course memorization for the bass courses is slowed a bit: you have to think, is that an F or an E? However, all of these issues can be--and are-- dealt with by practice. In a way, it is also a very special lute, for precisely those reasons--the quirky jump, the noted F and D reasonance. So for these reasons, every collector should have one, just not learn on one--if continuo, 10c, archlute is a possibility down the line. For the same reasons, I would not recommend learning harpsichord with a short octave, although it is a cool instrument. I wouldn't play Dowland or Francesco on an eight course for stylistic resons, and that is a big chunk. I hope this won't prevent me from sampling any of the Islay whiskies, including Lagavulin, Laphroaig, Bowmore and Ardbeg, my preferred "four course" dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64 cms
I have a friend I push around in a wheel chair. We pull that trick every time. Suckers! Rob On 03/04/2008, Anthony Hind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > David >You forgot two of my favourite whiskies, Bruichladdich and > Clynelish. > > A friend of mine found a very ancient Bruichladdich at Edinburgh > University Celtic association, and was bringing it back to Paris, > when at the exit of a tube gate, he found a person in a wheel chair > who needed help to get over the gate. My friend put everything down, > including the treasured whisky, and when he had helped the fellow > through the gate returned to pick-up his goods, and found that his > ancient whisky was missing. > Since he had told me he was bringing it back, and I was already > imagining the exquisite taste in my mouth, I found myself both > laughing, and sort of crying as he told me this tale. > I imagined this mugger chuckling over the 35 year old Whisky. I only > hope he did not cut it down with lemon juice, as many do in Scotland, > I am told, calling it Whisky Toddy, or some such. > http://www.rampantscotland.com/recipes/blrecipe_toddy.htm > > It could, of course, be that my friend invented the whole story just > to keep the bottle to himself. I had never thought of that, I wonder ... > Now I will declare that I love all 8c lutes, if you can find another > such bottle for me; but a "one hundred year old" Calvados of a very > rich dark green colour (that this friend also found me, bless him), > would do as well, I can assure you. No such a friend could not > possibly have invented that story. > Best wishes > Anthony > > > > Le 3 avr. 08 =E0 19:56, David Tayler a ecrit : > > > I continue to hold the unpopular view that the eight course may > > slightly slow musical development: If you have any interest in > > continuo, the non linear bass is a hurdle, and if you wish to play > > 10c, archlute or theorbo, > > the course memorization for the bass courses is slowed a bit: you > > have to think, is that an F or an E? > > However, all of these issues can be--and are-- dealt with by practice. > > > > In a way, it is also a very special lute, for precisely those > > reasons--the quirky jump, the noted F and D reasonance. > > So for these reasons, every collector should have one, just not learn > > on one--if continuo, 10c, archlute is a possibility down the line. > > For the same reasons, I would not recommend learning harpsichord with > > a short octave, although it is a cool instrument. > > > > I wouldn't play Dowland or Francesco on an eight course for stylistic > > resons, and that is a big chunk. > > > > I hope this won't prevent me from sampling any of the Islay whiskies, > > including Lagavulin, Laphroaig, Bowmore and Ardbeg, my preferred > > "four course" > >> > > dt > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > --
[LUTE] Re: 8-course club; was 7c at 64cms
I'm in! Leonard Williams /[ ] / \ | * | \_=_/ On 4/3/08 8:02 AM, "Valéry Sauvage" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Should we make a "Club of the 8 course proud users" ? > Val (is it an half penny idea ?) > ;-))) > > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Jean-Marie Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute" > > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 1:38 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64 cms
I realize that many of our current lute list members do not care for the 8 course lute, but I really like mine. One thin, for those using a reason of too much resonance on my French CD of all 6 course music, I used an 8 course lute, all in gut, with octaves on 4,5, & 6. It fooled most, who thought it was a 6 course lute. With gut, the resonance factor is out of the equation. It is a good compromise. ed At 05:44 PM 4/3/2008 +0100, Stewart McCoy wrote: >Jean-Marie and Val, > >I wrote recently in support of the 8-course lute. There are many >advantages, and unless you want a house full of lutes, it is a good, >all-purpose instrument. > >That's my hap'orth. My previous exposition on the subject was worth more >like tuppence or thruppence. > >Best wishes, > >Stewart McCoy. > >-Original Message- >From: Valery Sauvage [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: 03 April 2008 13:03 >To: lute >Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms > >Should we make a "Club of the 8 course proud users" ? >Val (is it an half penny idea ?) > >-o-O-o- > >-Original Message- >From: Jean-Marie Poirier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: 03 April 2008 12:03 >To: lute >Subject: [LUTE] Re: 7c at 64cms > > Martin, > >I totally agree with all of that, including your non-ostracizing the >poor 8c ;-) ! So much music, Elizabethan and continental as well, is >designed for 8c that it seems more than strange to reject this type of >lute. If it's only a matter of personnal taste, then I can understand >and accept it, but I can think of no music-ologic-al reasons to do so. >Obviously, the 9c lived a very short life, a quarter of a century at >best, but 7c and 8c lasted much longer, if the repertoire can be an >indication af anything regarding instruments in use at the time... >Another obvious thing is that lute players used several instruments >simply because it was easier, and sort of cheaper, to get them then than >now. > >Just my tupence (let's make it three pence ;-)) thought on that matter, > >Jean-Marie > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG. >Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date: 4/2/2008 >4:14 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: 7c at 64 cms
It's all fire-water to me. ed At 09:03 PM 4/3/2008 +0200, Anthony Hind wrote: >David > You forgot two of my favourite whiskies, Bruichladdich and Clynelish. > >A friend of mine found a very ancient Bruichladdich at Edinburgh >University Celtic association, and was bringing it back to Paris, >when at the exit of a tube gate, he found a person in a wheel chair >who needed help to get over the gate. My friend put everything down, >including the treasured whisky, and when he had helped the fellow >through the gate returned to pick-up his goods, and found that his >ancient whisky was missing. >Since he had told me he was bringing it back, and I was already >imagining the exquisite taste in my mouth, I found myself both >laughing, and sort of crying as he told me this tale. >I imagined this mugger chuckling over the 35 year old Whisky. I only >hope he did not cut it down with lemon juice, as many do in Scotland, >I am told, calling it Whisky Toddy, or some such. >http://www.rampantscotland.com/recipes/blrecipe_toddy.htm > >It could, of course, be that my friend invented the whole story just >to keep the bottle to himself. I had never thought of that, I wonder ... >Now I will declare that I love all 8c lutes, if you can find another >such bottle for me; but a "one hundred year old" Calvados of a very >rich dark green colour (that this friend also found me, bless him), >would do as well, I can assure you. No such a friend could not >possibly have invented that story. >Best wishes >Anthony > > > >Le 3 avr. 08 =E0 19:56, David Tayler a ecrit : > > > I continue to hold the unpopular view that the eight course may > > slightly slow musical development: If you have any interest in > > continuo, the non linear bass is a hurdle, and if you wish to play > > 10c, archlute or theorbo, > > the course memorization for the bass courses is slowed a bit: you > > have to think, is that an F or an E? > > However, all of these issues can be--and are-- dealt with by practice. > > > > In a way, it is also a very special lute, for precisely those > > reasons--the quirky jump, the noted F and D reasonance. > > So for these reasons, every collector should have one, just not learn > > on one--if continuo, 10c, archlute is a possibility down the line. > > For the same reasons, I would not recommend learning harpsichord with > > a short octave, although it is a cool instrument. > > > > I wouldn't play Dowland or Francesco on an eight course for stylistic > > resons, and that is a big chunk. > > > > I hope this won't prevent me from sampling any of the Islay whiskies, > > including Lagavulin, Laphroaig, Bowmore and Ardbeg, my preferred > > "four course" > >> > > dt > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >-- > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG. >Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.5/1356 - Release Date: 4/2/2008 >4:14 PM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: rocha & fuso
Dear Bernd, My guess is that "La rocha el fuso" originated as a Venetian dance-song like several other mainstays of the Italian repertoire - for example 'la Traditora' and 'la cara cossa.' An interesting blend of street song and dance that became popular standards for several decades, appearing in surprisingly diverse sources. 'Chi passa' is a great example, which even finds it's way into Elizabethan manuscripts. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Bernd Haegemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 April 2008 16:37 To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] rocha & fuso Dear all, B. de Drusinas "Tabulatura continens insignes...", 1556 contains a setting (I presume) of "La rocha el fuso" This title seems to appear also in the mss. La rocha il fuso, D-DO G I 4, 36 249 250; D-Mbs 1511b, 54; D-Mbs 1511d, 20 olim DONAUESCHINGEN, Hofbibliothek (D-DO) Ms. G I 4 non signalé dans RISM B VII - SMT II, p. 80-96 MÜNCHEN, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek (D-Mbs) Mus. Ms. 1511b RISM B VII, p. 219 - SMT II, p. 221-223 and Mus. Ms. 1511d RISM B VII, p. 220-221 - SMT II, p. 224-225 .but is it originally a song? Who could help with more information? Thank you & best wishes Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: rocha & fuso
- Original Message - From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Bernd Haegemann'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'LuteNet list'" Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 6:40 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: rocha & fuso Dear Bernd, My guess is that "La rocha el fuso" originated as a Venetian dance-song like several other mainstays of the Italian repertoire - for example 'la Traditora' and 'la cara cossa.' An interesting blend of street song and dance that became popular standards for several decades, appearing in surprisingly diverse sources. 'Chi passa' is a great example, which even finds it's way into Elizabethan manuscripts. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Bernd Haegemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 April 2008 16:37 To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] rocha & fuso Dear all, B. de Drusinas "Tabulatura continens insignes...", 1556 contains a setting (I presume) of "La rocha el fuso" This title seems to appear also in the mss. La rocha il fuso, D-DO G I 4, 36 249 250; D-Mbs 1511b, 54; D-Mbs 1511d, 20 olim DONAUESCHINGEN, Hofbibliothek (D-DO) Ms. G I 4 non signalé dans RISM B VII - SMT II, p. 80-96 MÜNCHEN, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek (D-Mbs) Mus. Ms. 1511b RISM B VII, p. 219 - SMT II, p. 221-223 and Mus. Ms. 1511d RISM B VII, p. 220-221 - SMT II, p. 224-225 .but is it originally a song? Who could help with more information? Thank you & best wishes Bernd Dear Bernd and Denys, That is most likely a Venetian street song. "El fuso" is Venetian dialect (NOT Spanish as in RISM for Munich 1511B!!!). You'll find more pieces by consulting the index in Brown (under "Rocha"). Also there is a three-movement dance group in the Pacolini trios (Phalèse 1564-but the pieces are much earlier). Minkoff facsimile. Many of the song lyrics are known because Azzaiolo used the tunes and texts in many of his villotes. Knud Jepessen has done the most work, and alas I have lost my files, so must write from a somewhat hazy memory. Many of the pieces (but not "Rocha") in a Venetian keyboard manuscript which Jepessen edited as _*Antichi balli veneziani*_ (Copenhagen, 1962), and more information is in his study, "Ein altvenezianische Tanzbuch," in the _*Festschrift für Karl Gustav Fellerer*_ (1962). Jepessen is able to quote most of the lyrics which he discovered in Azzaiolo villotes and villanellas. There's at least one more Venetian street song in the Donaueschingen MS (now in Stuttgart?), "Bernardo non puol stare" (Bernard can't stand up) set by Melchior Newsidler. Many of those old Venetian street songs feature foreign soldiers with accents. Bernardo isn't able to stand because, like a typical soldier, he's had too much to drink. It's rather hilarious in Marco's duet. Two strings are struck, when one is intended. The lutenist is drunk, too. That other Munich manuscript Mus Ms 1511b is Italian and entirely devoted to Venetian street songs-or largely so. So was probably copied in Venice (not in Augsburg). Some titles of Venetian street songs in the lute repertory include "El Burato," "La Traditora" (traitor in love), "La Cara Cosa," "Maton, maton" (the soldier with his accent saying "Madonna") "Vegnando da Bologna," "La torza," "Tocca tocca la canella" (beat the cane), etc. One of my surprise "discoveries" was that Donaueschingen Manuscript. I'd gone to the Fuerstenberg library just to look at a signature in a book, and so I loitered, sipping coffee at a sidewalk café. And then wandered over to the artificial grotto where the Danube begins, with a bigger than life size statue of Johann Strauss playing his violin. It was a lazy day. Didn't have anything to do but look at a signature. So it was just a few minutes I needed in the library. Particularly famous (iirc) for 18th-century music. The Duke had all the latest Haydn and Mozart symphonies sent from Vienna. And looked at the signature, and it wasn't what I was hoping for. I asked the librarian if the library had any lute music, since I had a hour or two to wait for my train back to Munich. No, she said (she didn't know about the Gumprecht tablatures), but she thought there were some 18th-century guitar arrangements of Lutheran chorales, something that normally wouldn't interest me too much. She looked in the card catalogue. "Yes, here it is." But I thought, I'd never seen something like that, so I asked to take a look. Well, a surpise awaited me. It wasn't 18th, it was 16th century. I had in my hands one of the largest collections of Renaissance lute music known. Over 300 pieces (iirc). I spotted a ricercar by Francesco that was otherwise unknown, and an entire book of Venetian lute music copied from Italian into German tablature. The Venetian original is known only by its title in an old catalogue. No copy of the Italian original is know to exist. Some French pieces towards the end, including (Mlle. or M.) "Bocquet." Some titles were in Hebrew script. Needless to say, I mis
[LUTE] Re: rocha & fuso
Thank you, Arthur, for sharing this exciting memory about the Donaueschingen Manuscript. Fascinating, as susual ! All the best, Jean-Marie Poirier >Dear Bernd and Denys, > >That is most likely a Venetian street song. "El fuso" is Venetian >dialect (NOT Spanish as in RISM for Munich 1511B!!!). >You'll find more pieces by consulting the index in Brown (under >"Rocha"). Also there is a three-movement dance group in the >Pacolini trios (Phalèse 1564-but the pieces are much earlier). >Minkoff facsimile. Many of the song lyrics are known because >Azzaiolo used the tunes and texts in many of his villotes. Knud >Jepessen has done the most work, and alas I have lost my files, >so must write from a somewhat hazy memory. Many of the pieces >(but not "Rocha") in a Venetian keyboard manuscript which >Jepessen edited as _*Antichi balli veneziani*_ (Copenhagen, >1962), and more information is in his study, "Ein >altvenezianische Tanzbuch," in the _*Festschrift für Karl Gustav >Fellerer*_ (1962). Jepessen is able to quote most of the lyrics >which he discovered in Azzaiolo villotes and villanellas. > >There's at least one more Venetian street song in the >Donaueschingen MS (now in Stuttgart?), "Bernardo non puol stare" >(Bernard can't stand up) set by Melchior Newsidler. Many of >those old Venetian street songs feature foreign soldiers with >accents. Bernardo isn't able to stand because, like a typical >soldier, he's had too much to drink. It's rather hilarious in >Marco's duet. Two strings are struck, when one is intended. The >lutenist is drunk, too. That other Munich manuscript Mus Ms >1511b is Italian and entirely devoted to Venetian street songs-or >largely so. So was probably copied in Venice (not in Augsburg). > >Some titles of Venetian street songs in the lute repertory >include "El Burato," "La Traditora" (traitor in love), "La Cara >Cosa," "Maton, maton" (the soldier with his accent saying >"Madonna") "Vegnando da Bologna," "La torza," "Tocca tocca la >canella" (beat the cane), etc. > >One of my surprise "discoveries" was that Donaueschingen >Manuscript. I'd gone to the Fuerstenberg library just to look >at a signature in a book, and so I loitered, sipping coffee at a >sidewalk >café. And then wandered over to the artificial grotto where the >Danube begins, with a bigger than life size statue of Johann >Strauss playing his violin. It was a lazy day. Didn't have >anything to do but look at a signature. > >So it was just a few minutes I needed in the library. >Particularly famous (iirc) for 18th-century music. The Duke had >all the latest Haydn and Mozart symphonies sent from Vienna. And >looked at the signature, and it wasn't what I was hoping for. I >asked the librarian if the library had any lute music, since I >had a hour or two to wait for my train back to Munich. No, she >said (she didn't know about the Gumprecht tablatures), but she >thought there were some 18th-century guitar arrangements of >Lutheran chorales, something that normally wouldn't interest me >too much. >She looked in the card catalogue. "Yes, here it is." But I >thought, I'd never seen something like that, so I asked to take a >look. > >Well, a surpise awaited me. It wasn't 18th, it was 16th century. >I had in my hands one of the largest >collections of Renaissance lute music known. Over 300 pieces >(iirc). I spotted a ricercar by Francesco that was otherwise >unknown, and an entire book of Venetian lute music copied from >Italian into German tablature. The Venetian original is known >only by its title in an old catalogue. No copy of the Italian >original is >know to exist. Some French pieces towards the end, including >(Mlle. or M.) "Bocquet." Some titles were in Hebrew script. >Needless to say, I >missed my train. It was really an exciting moment for a student. >Something like that doesn't drop in your lap every day. > >Hope this gives you a start, Bernd. Good luck. > >P.S. Do you know any lutenists in Frankfurt an der Oder? > >=AJN (Boston, Mass.)= >Free Download of the Week > >This week's free download from >Classical Music Library is >Ginastera's Estancia Suite, Op. 8a, >performed by the >Carlos Chavez Symphony Orchestra; >Fernando Lozano, conductor. >Click on the CML link here >http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ >=== > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 04-04-2008
[LUTE] Re: rocha & fuso
Possible a basse dance variant of Roche? odd that it is an allemand as well as a galliard dt FusoAt 07:28 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote: - Original Message - From: "Denys Stephens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Bernd Haegemann'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'LuteNet list'" Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 6:40 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: rocha & fuso Dear Bernd, My guess is that "La rocha el fuso" originated as a Venetian dance-song like several other mainstays of the Italian repertoire - for example 'la Traditora' and 'la cara cossa.' An interesting blend of street song and dance that became popular standards for several decades, appearing in surprisingly diverse sources. 'Chi passa' is a great example, which even finds it's way into Elizabethan manuscripts. Best wishes, Denys -Original Message- From: Bernd Haegemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 03 April 2008 16:37 To: LuteNet list Subject: [LUTE] rocha & fuso Dear all, B. de Drusinas "Tabulatura continens insignes...", 1556 contains a setting (I presume) of "La rocha el fuso" This title seems to appear also in the mss. La rocha il fuso, D-DO G I 4, 36 249 250; D-Mbs 1511b, 54; D-Mbs 1511d, 20 olim DONAUESCHINGEN, Hofbibliothek (D-DO) Ms. G I 4 non signalé dans RISM B VII - SMT II, p. 80-96 MÜNCHEN, Bayerische Staatsbibliothek (D-Mbs) Mus. Ms. 1511b RISM B VII, p. 219 - SMT II, p. 221-223 and Mus. Ms. 1511d RISM B VII, p. 220-221 - SMT II, p. 224-225 .but is it originally a song? Who could help with more information? Thank you & best wishes Bernd Dear Bernd and Denys, That is most likely a Venetian street song. "El fuso" is Venetian dialect (NOT Spanish as in RISM for Munich 1511B!!!). You'll find more pieces by consulting the index in Brown (under "Rocha"). Also there is a three-movement dance group in the Pacolini trios (Phalèse 1564-but the pieces are much earlier). Minkoff facsimile. Many of the song lyrics are known because Azzaiolo used the tunes and texts in many of his villotes. Knud Jepessen has done the most work, and alas I have lost my files, so must write from a somewhat hazy memory. Many of the pieces (but not "Rocha") in a Venetian keyboard manuscript which Jepessen edited as _*Antichi balli veneziani*_ (Copenhagen, 1962), and more information is in his study, "Ein altvenezianische Tanzbuch," in the _*Festschrift für Karl Gustav Fellerer*_ (1962). Jepessen is able to quote most of the lyrics which he discovered in Azzaiolo villotes and villanellas. There's at least one more Venetian street song in the Donaueschingen MS (now in Stuttgart?), "Bernardo non puol stare" (Bernard can't stand up) set by Melchior Newsidler. Many of those old Venetian street songs feature foreign soldiers with accents. Bernardo isn't able to stand because, like a typical soldier, he's had too much to drink. It's rather hilarious in Marco's duet. Two strings are struck, when one is intended. The lutenist is drunk, too. That other Munich manuscript Mus Ms 1511b is Italian and entirely devoted to Venetian street songs-or largely so. So was probably copied in Venice (not in Augsburg). Some titles of Venetian street songs in the lute repertory include "El Burato," "La Traditora" (traitor in love), "La Cara Cosa," "Maton, maton" (the soldier with his accent saying "Madonna") "Vegnando da Bologna," "La torza," "Tocca tocca la canella" (beat the cane), etc. One of my surprise "discoveries" was that Donaueschingen Manuscript. I'd gone to the Fuerstenberg library just to look at a signature in a book, and so I loitered, sipping coffee at a sidewalk café. And then wandered over to the artificial grotto where the Danube begins, with a bigger than life size statue of Johann Strauss playing his violin. It was a lazy day. Didn't have anything to do but look at a signature. So it was just a few minutes I needed in the library. Particularly famous (iirc) for 18th-century music. The Duke had all the latest Haydn and Mozart symphonies sent from Vienna. And looked at the signature, and it wasn't what I was hoping for. I asked the librarian if the library had any lute music, since I had a hour or two to wait for my train back to Munich. No, she said (she didn't know about the Gumprecht tablatures), but she thought there were some 18th-century guitar arrangements of Lutheran chorales, something that normally wouldn't interest me too much. She looked in the card catalogue. "Yes, here it is." But I thought, I'd never seen something like that, so I asked to take a look. Well, a surpise awaited me. It wasn't 18th, it was 16th century. I had in my hands one of the largest collections of Renaissance lute music known. Over 300 pieces (iirc). I spotted a ricercar by Francesco that was otherwise unknown, and an entire book of Venetian lute music copied from Italian into German tablature. The Venetian original is known only by its title in an old catalogue. No copy of the Italian original is know to ex
