[LUTE] theorbo in Spain?

[Rob MacKillop]

What evidence is there for the theorbo being used in Spain?

Rob

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[LUTE] Re: OT: Torture and c-camps

[vance wood]

Must have fallen off the wagon once more.
- Original Message - 
From: "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 7:03 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: OT: Torture and c-camps



Arto,

that was remarkably long since you posted something which is again  true 
but not at all appropiate for the lutenet. Please don't! The only  outcome 
is just another flame war.


g



On 01.05.2008, at 00:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Dear musicians,

someone from the US PS-talked me lately:
.




All the best,

Arto




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Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.7/1408 - Release 
Date: 4/30/2008 6:10 PM

[LUTE] Re: Fretboards (was Tying on frets)

[demery]

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

> Hello Lutenists,
> I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear
> with me:
> I did not bevel or fillet the edges of the fingerboard

This is discused in lindbergs book on historical lute construction, the
fingerboard is flat on early lutes - an extension of the top; some post
renaissance are slightly arched in section.

It helps the frets to lie flat to the full width of the fretboard if the
outer edge is eased slightly; if this edge is angular the fret will kink,
perhaps enough to break before its time.

> if you lay a straight edge on your fingerboard, is it straight or
> crowned? 

ah, there are two directions of interest here ...

along the length axis of the neck one has to consider the forces acting to
raise the neck at the nut, in time they can bring a getle curve into the
neck along its length, raising the action and making the instrument more
difficult to play - a very slight downward curve can be planed into the
neck to compensate for that, assuming the neck material proves to need
that.

> Another related question I have is, nylon or gut for frets? 

Fret guts are slightly more expensive, many will mix, some like to use the
same material as the strings.  Gut frets fray in use, nylon is slippery
and harder to tie knots in.


-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE] Re: OT: Torture and c-camps

[wikla]

On 5/1/2008, "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> that was remarkably long since you posted something which is again
> true but not at all appropiate for the lutenet. Please don't! The only
> outcome is just another flame war.

I can stand 1000 or more flame wars, if one act of torture is withdrawn...
It really is not a question of "politics", it is a question ethics,
moral. As I said here already some critical years ago...

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: test

[wikla]

On 5/1/2008, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> just testing... A
> 


And just testing, why the following did not get through,  while this test
went...

Dear musicians,

someone from the US PS-talked me lately:

"PS You have been a good boy and refrained from posting inflammatory
political comments".

Not any more "a good boy"...

There are countries that use torture as "normal" means of interrogation
- and today the USA is included with a nice company of China, Russia,
North-Korea, Israel, Iran, ...

And USA even keeps concentration camps in the style of Germany in WW2:
there is no law, there is no other way out other than death...

Connection to the Lute List: We basically should be artists, we should be
professionals in creating feelings, and feeling what the audience feels.

Please fellow musicians, artists, take a moment to "feel" how it feels
to be tortured - our imagination could be better than the professionals
have, but I guess they are also very good in it. I hope they were not,
but I guess they are even much better than us...

So. Is there any remedy? At least you American readers, you should try to
get Bush and his gang "to justice", as they used to say.

I suppose the only way to save USA's possibility to save its universal
status is to bring Bush and his company to Hague and be condemned on
their crimes.

All the best,

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: OT: Torture and c-camps

[Gernot Hilger]

Arto,

that was remarkably long since you posted something which is again  
true but not at all appropiate for the lutenet. Please don't! The only  
outcome is just another flame war.


g



On 01.05.2008, at 00:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Dear musicians,

someone from the US PS-talked me lately:
.




All the best,

Arto




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[LUTE] test

[wikla]

just testing... A



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[LUTE] OT: Torture and c-camps

[wikla]

Dear musicians,

someone from the US PS-talked me lately:

"PS You have been a good boy and refrained from posting inflammatory
political comments".

Not any more "a good boy"...

There are countries that use torture as "normal" means of interrogation
- and today the USA is included with a nice company of China, Russia,
North-Korea, Israel, Iran, ...

And USA even keeps concentration camps in the style of Germany in WW2:
there is no law, there is no other way out other than death...

Connection to the Lute List: We basically should be artists, we should be
professionals in creating feelings, and feeling what the audience feels.

Please fellow musicians, artists, take a moment to "feel" how it feels
to be tortured - our imagination could be better than the professionals
have, but I guess they are also very good in it. I hope they were not,
but I guess they are even much better than us...

So. Is there any remedy? At least you American readers, you should try to
get Bush and his gang "to justice", as they used to say.

I suppose the only way to save USA's possibility to save its universal
status is to bring Bush and his company to Hague and be condemned on
their crimes.

All the best,

Arto



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[LUTE] Re: Tying on frets

[Christopher Stetson]

Thanks again for your help, Joseph.  
What you describe seems basically what I do with gut.  
However, the way I learned (from Joel van Lennep??? way back when) involved 
burning one end of the gut slightly over a candle flame to make an enlarged 
bulb to hold the end of the slip knot, pulling it tight as you say, and then 
closing the knot by burning off the protruding strand, thereby simultaneously 
cutting the strand and forming another enlarged bulb to hold the knot.  (Sorry, 
this writes up sounding much more complicated than it is in practice!)  
How do you deal with this with nylon?
Also, what grit sandpaper do you recommend?
Best again,
Chris.


>>> Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4/29/2008 8:37 am >>>
Hello Christopher

What I use with nylon is a knot I learned from Dan Larson at an LSA
fest. It's basically a slipknot with the fret pulled tight through the loop.
I find it works great with nylon that has been roughened with sandpaper.
I have too many instruments to string with gut ($) and I play with nails
(you know, for the historical accuracy) which tend to chew up gut strings. I
use nylon and carbon fiber. Interestingly enough, I find my gut frets being
worn much more on the treble side than the bass. Probably more use - but
then, why the higher frets more than the lower? (picture me scratching my
head) 
But here's another advantage to nylon frets - virtually no wear.

Best,
Joseph Mayes


On 4/28/08 7:54 PM, "Christopher Stetson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Interesting, Joseph!  My lute is well overdue for refretting (sp?), and I've
> always used gut.  Do you have any pointers for tying nylon tightly?  I tied
> the traditional double frets when I started 30 years ago, then went over to
> single strand with a flame-singed ball on the end to hold the knot.  Is this
> basically what you do with nylon?  Any advantage to nylgut, etc. (though that
> would eliminate at least part of the cost advantage!)?
> 
> Also, do you use gut for stringing, or nylon and overspun?  If the latter,
> what's your experience with wear on the frets from the wound strings?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris.
> 
 Joseph Mayes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 4/28/2008 6:36 pm >>>
> Hello
> 
> I must differ on some points:
> In my experience, nylon frets are more difficult to tie and tend not to lie
> flat if not tied tight enough - but (and this is huge!IMHP) they never ever
> ever loosen. I just rebought for use as a loaner a lute that I had sold over
> ten years ago the nylon frets were old when I sold it. They're still on the
> instrument and still tight. I had a Donald Warnock lute made in 1967 with
> nylon frets. The original frets are still tight. NEVER EVER LOOSEN.
> 
> If you run the fret past a piece of sand paper a couple of times, nylon
> becomes quite textured and holds quite well.
> 
> There are people who will tell you that gut frets sound better than nylon.
> These people have better ears than I.
> 
> Most of my instruments have gut frets, but if I must retie one, the
> replacement will be nylon for two reasons: 1) expense - it's far cheaper
> than gut. And 2) I won't ever have to tie that fret again.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Joseph Mayes
> 
> 
> On 4/28/08 2:46 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Dear All:
>>  One of my lutes had a flat fingerboard with edging that came to a rather
>> sharp point, and I had trouble getting frets to lie flat, especially those
>> made with larger-diameter gut. They did indeed exhibit some "daylight" at the
>> edges. I had a luthier bevel the edges slightly, and now the frets all lie
>> flat.
>>  I don't think nylon works nearly as well as gut for frets, for a veriety of
>> reasons:
>>  1) It stretches less once in place, and so stays tight longer;
>>  2) It is a little "tacky" and stays in place better than the relatively
>> slippery nylon;
>>  3) It bends more readily than nylon, allowing it to lie flat more easily.
>>  Depending on the action of your lute, it also may help to graduate the
>> diameters slightly, starting perhaps with 1 mm gut at the first fret and
>> working down to 0.80 or 0.75 mm at the seventh fret. But if the action is a
>> little high, you can use the same diameter throughout.
>> Cheers and good luck,
>> Jim
>> 
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>> Date: 2008/04/28 Mon AM 11:51:02 CDT
>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>> Subject: [LUTE] Tying on frets
>> 
>> Hello Lutenists,
>> I need some help. Not with the fret knot itself or the like, but please bear
>> with me:
>> I stripped the fixed metal fret fingerboard from my lute & replaced it with a
>> fretless fingerboard. I am not a luthier, just very careful. I did not bevel
>> or fillet the edges of the fingerboard, at least not yet. I notice that the
>> stress resulting from the nylon fret trying to make the sharp bend is lifting
>> it up near the edge. That is, near the edge of the fingerboard there is a
>> small gap or "daylight" under the fret. It is actually not all that small,
>> big
>> enough so

[LUTE] Re: Translation for Ladino text.

Dear Gernot, dear all,

thank you - "birbante" to "berbante" is no long way to go, too.

I have not been successful in searching for "berbante" in literature about =
Sephardic texts and/or language - even the library of the Berlin Jewish Mus=
eum seems to have no holdings which are of help, but as things seems to be =
pretty clear I will not have to chagrain myself into sleep this night.

Back to music: Herbert - do you have a melody for the text?

All best,

Joachim

"Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> If it is of any interest, I found an online source about what the word =
=20
> means. http://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/=BC=C0=B5=C1=BC=C0=AC=BD=C4=B7=C2
>=20
> It is obviously a loan word from Italian birbante and means
> "man with unstable and intense erotic life that seeks/creates a lot of =
=20
> erotic relations with women"
> (Translation from http://www.stars21.com/translator/greek_to_english.html=
=20
> , this translator is quite good)
>=20
> That would make it a plain womanizer which nicely fits into the Ladino =
=20
> text.
>=20
> g
>=20
> On 26.04.2008, at 22:10, Gernot Hilger wrote:
>=20
> > and also in Greek, berbantis (=9C=C0=B5=C1=BC=C0=AC=BD=C4=B7=C2). I do =
not know =20
> > exactly what It means, but is is a word for a man in the field also =20
> > containing women and adultery.
> > g
> >
> > On 26.04.2008, at 21:50, Roman Turovsky wrote:
> >
> >> There is a similar word in Italian- BIRBANTE.
> >> RT
> >> - Original Message - From: "Manolo Laguillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
uillo.com=20
> >> >
> >> To: "LUTELIST" 
> >> Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 3:38 PM
> >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Translation for Ladino text.
> >>
> >>
> >> hi, Herbert,
> >> 'berbante'...
> >> for me, with modern ears, it sounds as a sort of mixture between
> >> 'brib=F3n' (=3D rascal) and 'bergante' (=3D someone very lazy and also=
 =20
> >> crook,
> >> like the Lazarillo, that famous character in the spanish novel from =
=20
> >> the
> >> XVI Cent.).
> >> Saludos,
> >> Manolo
>=20
>=20
>=20
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>=20
>=20


--=20
Joachim L=FCdtke, Lektorat & DTP-Dienstleistungen
Dr. Joachim L=FCdtke
Blumenstra=DFe 20
D - 90762 F=FCrth
Tel. +49-+911 / 976 45 20

[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[David Rastall]

On Apr 30, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Ron Fletcher wrote:

> I wish the modern-day R&B singers would take this to heart.  They  
> never hold
> a note and sing every possible note around it instead!  My friends  
> say it is
> merely interpretation and ornamentation.  I beg to differ...The  
> twiddly-bits
> are for the instruments, not the voice!

Oh, now Ron...!  I too beg to differ.

I absolutely can't agree with you.  Aside from choral singers, and it  
doesn't even include all of them, all singers embellish what they  
sing.  Name one singer who would sound better if she or he sang just  
the straight notes with no embellishment whatever.  Who would you  
choose from?  Opera singers, pop singers, folk singers, jazz singers,  
minstrels, Baroque singers, Romantic singers, gospel singers, R&B  
singers, blues singers etc., etc., etc.?  Not to mention Mongolian  
throat singers, Chinese, Japanese, whatever singers.  The list is  
virtually endless.  They all embellish according to the requirements  
of their music.

Some nervous deconstructionists might regard the term "classical  
training" as a process of washing out anything but the written notes,  
but even in the world of "classical" singing there's a lot of  
stylistic ornamentation and embellishment going on.

Best,

David R
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[David Rastall]

On Apr 30, 2008, at 10:56 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:

2. The important part of your useful Zarlino quotation, for me at  
least, was
'progressions absolutely intolerable in composition'. This clearly  
divides
the matter into two seemingly polar camps: Performance Practice and
Compositional Practice. I guess Zarlino was a composer?!

I don't think that polarization of that kind existed then any more  
than it does today.  I think composers had certain expectations of  
singers, and it's our job as supposedly knowledgeable HIP musicians  
to know how to round out the music in the ways the composers would  
have expected.  I think Zarlino meant that there isn't any difference  
between compositional practice and performance practice, except in  
the hands of poor singers.

DR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[Ron Fletcher]

Zarlino, in _Istitutioni harmoniche_, 1558, wrote: "Matters for the singer
to observe are these: First of all he must aim diligently to perform what
the composer has written. He must not be like those who, wishing to be
thought worthier and wiser than their colleagues, indulge in certain rapid
improvisations that are so savage and so inappropriate that they not only
annoy the hearer but are riddled with thousands of errors, such as many
dissonances, consecutive unisons, octaves, fifths, and other similar
progressions absolutely intolerable in composition. Then there are singers
who substitute higher or lower tones for those intended by the composer,
singing for instance a whole tone instead of a semitone, or vice versa,
leading to countless errors as well as offense to the ear.  Singers should
aim to render faithfully what is written to express the composer's intent,
intoning the correct steps in the right places." 
 
[Gioseffo Zarlino, _The Art of Counterpoint_, translated by Guy A. Marco and
Claude V. Palisca, (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1968) ppg 110-111.]
 
I wish the modern-day R&B singers would take this to heart.  They never hold
a note and sing every possible note around it instead!  My friends say it is
merely interpretation and ornamentation.  I beg to differ...The twiddly-bits
are for the instruments, not the voice!

BTW Thanks for this Ron

Ron (UK)




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[LUTE] Re: Making a duet from a solo.

[William Brohinsky]

This is an important point: if the aim is HIP, then this is it. Many
three-part works written during the early chanson period were "given
new life" by the addition of a fourth part. Some of these extra parts
are quite ingenious, providing a complete change in chord structure
(not that the composers of the time were harmony-focused).

In the first book of music printed with moveable type, Petrucci's
Harmonice Musices Odhecaton, eight and possibly 10 pieces have been
treated this way. Many of the added parts are overtly marked "si
placet". Examination of the si placet literature shows that some of
the extra pieces move all over the place in wide jumps, trying to fill
in the harmony without violating voice rules. (And this may well have
grown into the fifth-part name, vagans, wandering.)

It's a way for modern HIP musicians to show their musicianship the way
that the original folk did.

ray

On 4/30/08, Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Another way would be to create a new part. This was done in the old days and
> we have contra-parts for Francesco Fantasias and many other pieces.
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2008, at 9:48 PM, Herbert Ward wrote:
>
> >
> > The obvious method for making a duet from a solo is
> > to simply divide the notes between the two lutes,
> > usually giving the melody notes to one lute and the
> > remaining notes to the other lute.
> >
> > Are there any more sophisticated considerations
> > for endevours of this type, which can be formulated
> > into textual rules?  I ask because sometimes
> > the above method seems to change the character of
> > the piece somewhat.
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>
>
>

[LUTE] Lute Case: Where to get?

[robustus]

Good Afternoon Luters,
I need a case for a lute. The lute in question has a case but you can't
believe what a piece of crap it is. I have the lute almost to playable
condition so it is time to think about a case. What sources are there for
cases?
Thanx,
-plh



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[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[howard posner]

On Apr 30, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Ron Andrico wrote:

> When singing part music, a singer only had one part to read, and  
> did not have the luxury of scanning the complete score to see where  
> he or she could add bits here or there.

Neither does the first oboe player in an orchestra playing Handel or  
the lead guitarist in a rock band, but it doesn't stop them from  
ornamenting.  A skilled singer who understood the style (and all  
skilled singers understood the style) wouldn't need a score to know  
what was going on, particularly if the music was actually rehearsed.

>   The object was to blend and to be a pleasing part of the whole.
>
> Zarlino, in _Istitutioni harmoniche_, 1558, wrote: "Matters for the  
> singer to observe are these: First of all he must aim diligently to  
> perform what the composer has written. He must not be like those  
> who, wishing to be thought worthier and wiser than their  
> colleagues, indulge in certain rapid improvisations that are so  
> savage and so inappropriate that they not only annoy the hearer but  
> are riddled with thousands of errors, such as many dissonances,  
> consecutive unisons, octaves, fifths, and other similar  
> progressions absolutely intolerable in composition. Then there are  
> singers who substitute higher or lower tones for those intended by  
> the composer, singing for instance a whole tone instead of a  
> semitone, or vice versa, leading to countless errors as well as  
> offense to the ear.

It sounds like ornamentation was common in part-singing, unless  
Zarlino was inclined to waste a lot of ink on a non-existant problem.

None of this is dispositive on the question of whether a lutenist  
should ornament polyphonic lines.  As usual, two readers can examine  
the historical sources and come to different conclusions.

I am fortunate not to have to confront the problem in practice, since  
I am sufficiently untalented that simply getting the written notes is  
more than enough to occupy my hands.


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[LUTE] Re: help request

[howard posner]

On Apr 29, 2008, at 8:19 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote:

A friend of mine is wring a short article on the state of affairs  
in contemporary composition for lutes/citterns, and he asked me to  
assist in gathering the information.
I don't know whether the planned new lute composition index by  
Lynda Sayce and David PArsons was ever published, so we are  
soliciting the Collective Wisdom for citations, as substantial as  
possible for the 14 composers mentioned in the Wikipedia Article (I  
am familiar with the work of 4-5 of these),  as as any others not  
mentioned there.

RT


Richard Darsie has written original works for lute duet.



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[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[Rob MacKillop]

Dear Ron,

I'd like to thank you, in turn, for your thoughtful reply. If I take issue
with one or two points, it is nothing personal - I'm just thinking out loud.
1. How can you say that you 'can state this without reservation' that
'everyone in the sixteenth century who was fortunate enough to lay hands on
a lute was first taught to sing'? Everyone? But I'm being picky. You
probably mean 'most people'? Impossible to know for sure.

2. The important part of your useful Zarlino quotation, for me at least, was
'progressions absolutely intolerable in composition'. This clearly divides
the matter into two seemingly polar camps: Performance Practice and
Compositional Practice. I guess Zarlino was a composer?!

3. Your phrase, 'Personally, I think this fantasia has its own calm, quiet
integrity and really does not need finger ornaments to tart it up.' I find
interesting. I have never saught to 'tart up' a composition by using
ornaments. Nothing could be further from my mind. The term 'finger
ornaments' is also interesting.

4. I'm not sure of your contention that a 'full, round, warm tone' would a)
cloud the polyphony, and b) is not possible (your implication?) on a lute.

Anyway, your stance is a common one today, and might well have been common
in the 16thC, which is not to denigrate it in any way. I played Fuenllana
fantasias without decoration because they just didn't seem to move me to do
so. So I am not contra anything you say, but I do feel that the relationship
between ornamentation and phrasing is one that is little discussed, either
historically or today, possibly because it is difficult to put into words.

Coming from a different angle...I spent some time in Istanbul studying with
the State Orchestra - traditional Turkish classical music, one might say.
Everyone had the same score, treble clef, but they all decorated it in their
own way. 20 people doing the same thing differently. And it worked
beautifully, although it took me over a month to really start appreciating
it.

There is also the belief by many scholars that larger-scale part music,
ten-part masses, for instance, were a product of the tradition of vocal
improvising. The style still exisits in some west coast islands in Scotland,
and elsewhere in the world. Some might say it sounds cacophanous, some say
it sounds beautiful. I tried it with ten of my students: I got them to sing
the first line of the Lord's Prayer starting on a C and finding their way to
a G. After a few terrible attempts, they started listening to each other,
and it started to sound very convincing.

The point is, singers DID improvise in the 16thC, and there is a long
tradition before and after that century of improvising florid lines, away
from the written score. I'm just wondering out loud if we shouldn't do
something similar?

Rob

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[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[Ron Andrico]

Dear Rob:
 
I don't usually have much to say on this list, leaving lengthy discourse to the 
many experts.  But your thoughful response raises some general points I think 
are very important to how we approach playing polyphonic music.  
 
First and foremost, everyone in the sixteenth century who was fortunate enought 
to lay hands on a lute was first taught to sing.  I can state this without 
reservation.  When singing part music, a singer only had one part to read, and 
did not have the luxury of scanning the complete score to see where he or she 
could add bits here or there.  The object was to blend and to be a pleasing 
part of the whole.  
 
Zarlino, in _Istitutioni harmoniche_, 1558, wrote: "Matters for the singer to 
observe are these: First of all he must aim diligently to perform what the 
composer has written. He must not be like those who, wishing to be thought 
worthier and wiser than their colleagues, indulge in certain rapid 
improvisations that are so savage and so inappropriate that they not only annoy 
the hearer but are riddled with thousands of errors, such as many dissonances, 
consecutive unisons, octaves, fifths, and other similar progressions absolutely 
intolerable in composition. Then there are singers who substitute higher or 
lower tones for those intended by the composer, singing for instance a whole 
tone instead of a semitone, or vice versa, leading to countless errors as well 
as offense to the ear.  Singers should aim to render faithfully what is written 
to express the composer's intent, intoning the correct steps in the right 
places." 
 
[Gioseffo Zarlino, _The Art of Counterpoint_, translated by Guy A. Marco and 
Claude V. Palisca, (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1968) ppg 110-111.]
 
This may not seem to have much to do with adding 'twiddly bits' with our 
fingers on (too expensive) lute strings.  But I believe an understanding of how 
to approach polyphonic music from an historical singer's perspective tells us a 
great deal about how to appropriately transfer this music to our instrument.  
Apparently, I'm not the only person who thinks this.  A few years ago, Donna 
and I performed for a public masterclass with Hopkinson Smith.  We were, 
fortunately, last on the roster and had the opportunity to witness Inspector 
Smith coerce the three players before us to find and sing the polyphonic lines 
in the pieces they had chosen - on stage in front of a paying audience.  I had 
the good sense to bring my own singer, and was thus spared. 
 
I was delighted that Martin went to the trouble to write out the parts of the 
fantasia from the Marsh book.  This is the first step in understanding a piece 
well enough to determine whether or not it needs embellishment.  Personally, I 
think this fantasia has its own calm, quiet integrity and really does not need 
finger ornaments to tart it up.
 
>From another perspective, we have the tradition of sean nos singers, Sligo 
>fiddlers, Scandnavian fiddlers, and many other musical traditions where 
>ornamentation is an important and integral part of the music.  The wonderful 
>appropriateness of such highly ornamented music is tied to the fact that the 
>performer is decorating a single line of music.  Now think of Joe Pass, a 
>brilliant jazz guitarist who often performed solo versions of jazz standards.  
>He would alternate appropriately-voiced chord melody passages with dazzling, 
>highly ornamented single lines.  I compare this approach to Albert de Rippe's 
>wildly intabulated alternate version of Sebastian Festa's 'O passi sparsi,' in 
>which the part music is often interrupted with some pretty darn flashy passage 
>work.  I mention this example because it is a version of a 'standard' that is 
>meant to draw attention to the performer.  When playing this sort of piece, 
>both Albert and Joe were showing their stuff and asking to be notice!
 d, in a version of a well-known song that one couldn't possibly sing along 
with.  
 
What is at issue is the way we have come to the music.  Most lutenists today 
have found their way to lute through guitar, having been taught to produce a 
full, round, warm tone that is characteristic of the instrument.  While clarity 
of line is possible and and desirable with music on the guitar, lines are 
usually produced with a soft, covered sort of sound that makes it difficult to 
extract the parts from the whole.  A few weeks ago, I heard a radio broadcast 
of a very prominent guitarist playing arrangements of Bach, and he produced  a 
sound with a really good sense of the polyphony, but at a cost.  The individual 
notes of his line sounded like they had their own on and off switch.  I 
eventually used the off switch of the radio.
 
The renaissance lute has a much more transparent tone compared to classical 
guitar.  There is really nowhere to hide in terms of a thick, sustaining tone, 
and we are forced to either concentrate on the touch necessary to produce clear 
lines in polyphonic music, or 

[LUTE] Re: Making a duet from a solo.

[Sauvage Valéry]

There is a nice book at the French lute society, where Pascale Boquet wrote
conterparts to many well known pieces.
Look at : 
Vol 16 and vol 20...


Val

-Message d'origine-
De : Ed Durbrow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Envoyé : mercredi 30 avril 2008 15:36
À : Herbert Ward; LuteNet list
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Making a duet from a solo.

Another way would be to create a new part. This was done in the old  
days and we have contra-parts for Francesco Fantasias and many other  
pieces.

On Apr 28, 2008, at 9:48 PM, Herbert Ward wrote:

>
> The obvious method for making a duet from a solo is
> to simply divide the notes between the two lutes,
> usually giving the melody notes to one lute and the
> remaining notes to the other lute.
>
> Are there any more sophisticated considerations
> for endevours of this type, which can be formulated
> into textual rules?  I ask because sometimes
> the above method seems to change the character of
> the piece somewhat.
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

[LUTE] Re: Making a duet from a solo.

[Ed Durbrow]

Another way would be to create a new part. This was done in the old  
days and we have contra-parts for Francesco Fantasias and many other  
pieces.


On Apr 28, 2008, at 9:48 PM, Herbert Ward wrote:



The obvious method for making a duet from a solo is
to simply divide the notes between the two lutes,
usually giving the melody notes to one lute and the
remaining notes to the other lute.

Are there any more sophisticated considerations
for endevours of this type, which can be formulated
into textual rules?  I ask because sometimes
the above method seems to change the character of
the piece somewhat.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month

[Rob MacKillop]

This is an interesting subject. I have to own up and say it was me who asked
Martin why there were no twiddles in his performance. I didn't mention it on
the list in case it came across as criticism, which of course it isn't. I
thank Martin for bringing the subject to the list.

Please excuse me personalising this for one moment. There was an internet
discussion many years ago (I can't recall if it was here or elsewhere) about
ornamentation in early music, and one guy said 'you should here Rob
MacKillop - he ornaments on every other note' - this came as a surprise
because I didn't think I was adding ornaments at all. So I listened to the
cd Flowers of the Forest, and yes, I was surprised by the amount of
ornamentation - although not quite on every other note! The thing is, I
never consciously added ornaments, and now see those twiddles as an outcome
of phrasing. I added those notes because it helped make the phrase sing.
Now, that was with Scottish lute music which is closely related to a living
tradition of singing in Scotland, and I've often said that the biggest
influence on my playing was the phrasing and, I guess, ornamentation of
traditional singers. Of course, the singers would argue that they do not add
ornaments, and would be just as surprised as I was to hear that they have
been. It's all about phrasing.

So, what might that have to do with more 'posh' music - Milano to Dowland?
Well, I don't think they are so unrelated. I can't quote chapter and verse,
but it is my understanding that the same pieces can be found in different
manuscripts with ornament signs in different places. Therefore...it is not
an exact science about where these things go or how often they can be used.
Different strokes for different folks, so to speak.

One of the reasons I have probably avoided the English 6c and 7c repertoire
is that I feel uncomfortable playing it in what seems to be the accepted
style, which has very few if any ornaments. When I play with the freedom I
have with Scottish music, the English repertoire sounds strange! I put it
down to my inability to 'play the music properly', but maybe players
generally should be adding more twiddles - it changes the phrasing, though,
and to many that might be unacceptable.
To more practical matters: Ron, how do you know that clarity of line in
polyphony was of prime importance to singers? With one voice to a part, each
singer might have extensively decorated their own part. The clarity of the
written score (especially in modern editions with all the parts standing to
attention alongside each other) might not have been general practice. This
also goes for imitative graces at points of imitation. It looks neat and
tidy, but did singers really care about that? And was there always a Choral
Director, one person dictating how all the others should sing?
I'm not making any bold statements here. The bottom line is I don't know how
much ornamentation was added or how it was sung/played. But I do think
singable phrasing is of prime importance, and this very often implies adding
twiddles where they feel natural for the phrase.

Just a feeling.

Rob

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