[LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill
;-) Honest, Roman ? JM === 07-02-2009 01:48:26 === Musicality. RT - Original Message - From: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill At what? jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 07-02-2009 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
You can do one in three, three in ten. Depends on how much you want to practice. dt At 03:43 AM 2/6/2009, you wrote: I've been bothered by the charge of dilettantism (someone who prefers diversity to virtuosity) which was raised on this list recently. How many different instruments is it possible to play to a high professional standard? One? Two? And how many do most lutenists try to play? Four? Eight? And the differences are not trivial: sizes, playing techniques, tunings, repertoire, notation... Hans Keller once wrote an essay denouncing Phoney Professions, one of which was the Viola Player. Phoney, because playing the viola is so similar to playing the violin that specialist viola players shouldn't need to exist. Yet they persist. The string player's quest for the highest possible standard on his/her instrument trumps Keller's logic. Are we in the lute world systematically harming our playing standards, even the reputation of our instrument, by spreading ourselves too thin? Wouldn't we do better to specialise? Peter (lute, theorbo, classical guitar, baroque guitar, ocarina...) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
I'm not talking about the copies we know about, I'm talking about the copies we don't know about. There's a difference. The ones we don't know about--and they are everywhere--are the good ones. The idea that the guilds were strictly enforced in quite charming--have you looked at court records from the time? Seems like everyone was either a spy or a snitch. You can of course claim that there are no unknown forgeries--but history would not be on your side. Historical instruments are rarely tested with the specialized tools used in paintings--and even ifthere were, there is less information available about the materials. Strads and some other fiddles being the exception. It's a question of economics. The other reason s that musea rarely devalue their collections by tossing out the opera dubia--it also makes them look silly when they admit they have been showcasing a fake. As far as daft, well--I like to think of myself as an historian, Historically, daft was the same word as deft. dt At 07:00 AM 2/6/2009, you wrote: While your 30% idea can be good enough for Blue Peter, in no way you can spread sweeping generalisations like that on historical lutes, that's really daft. The very idea of lute forgery in the period from, say, early 16th - early 18th century (the 'golden era' of the lute) would not be possible by default, simply because of the guild regulations that were in place. One could not just belong to the business by being an amatory maker and / or even apprentice but only when the necessary skills are reached and the examination passed (in making of an instrument of certain complexity). And this is why one can see such a difference between a genuine lute and a forged substitute by, for example, the first historical forger Franciolini. Think about it. Or get yourself a copy of the lute catalogue from the Cite de la Musique where there are some good examples of historical lute 'forgeries' (all not earlier than mid-19th century of course). You say you prefer 'copies' but what is 'the copy' anyway in your understanding? Is it a 'copy' in appearance and some physical parameters or in acoustical terms? Strictly speaking, neither of these is possible to replicate completely and hence there is no such thing as an 'exact replica' of the lute! That was my original point anyway. However, by applying the main principles of historical lute construction we can reasonably well approach the ancient tradition of lute making and, ultimately, the sound idea. Once again, there is no point in drawing examples from books, painting, scores etc here. The difference may not be evident to you but it is there if you know where to look. Alexander - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica What I'm saying is that it is possible to build an exact replica because it has already been done on a large scale for , sculpture and musical instruments. Hey, the Capirola Lutebook could be a forgery. It is a good candidate. Some of the forgers were true geniuses. I'm not sayng we should do that--although I prefer copies, myself--I'm just saying it has been done, wholesale. People say it isn't possible, but it has been done. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill
h maybe. Or maybe no one is the best. Can you post some comparisons? I've certainly heard better perfomances of the chromatic fantasies. dt At 03:54 PM 2/6/2009, you wrote: That may very well be, but it is hard to fathom, considering that at his worst he is still better than all of us. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:10 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamzov--was Trench Fill I think Karamazov is at his best when he adopts techniques from historical keyboard players. His Bach Toccata (OK, maybe not Bach, whatever) has some very interesting, real baroque stuff in it. Very traditional, basic baroque. Would it be even better with Bach style ornaments? dt At 04:32 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better. Some are. Some aren't. I've no objection to musical freedom, I just advocate try then decide. I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a whole book of deconstructionist. dt Exactly. You've said it. That why I try to learn something from Karamazov. RT At 04:40 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote: As you might expect - I advocate the same thing as Haynes, sans balking. I'd rather deal with the last Tuesday's trills, than anything by, say, Matteis. RT From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net On Feb 1, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Mark Wheeler wrote: You should check out Bruce Haynes book The end of early music I couldn't agree more. It's a very good read. Although Haynes is a strong advocate for the writing of new music in the Baroque style, which makes me balk a little bit. I'd rather go to original 17th- or 18th-Century sources than try to deal with French trills in something written last Tuesday. DR dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
It all depends on what one is trying to accomplish. If your goal is to become the best luter around and enjoy the accolades and privileges that accompany that position, it's probably imperative that you narrow your focus. If your goal is to explore and enjoy as much of this wonderful music as possible, exploring other instruments might be the way to go. Playing more than one instrument is a time honored tradition. Is it not true that the illustrious Francesco Canova da Milano, played gamba as well as lute? I feel that studying lute has made me a better guitarist and studying gamba has made me a better luter, etc. When asked how he maintained his creativity for so many years, Count Basie said, I don't worry about creativity. I do what I like to do, and if I'm creative that's great. If not, I'm doing what I like to do. Gary - Original Message - From: Christopher Stetson cstet...@email.smith.edu To: Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 11:31 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dilettantism Dear Peter and all, I'm the one who prefers diversity to virtuosity, and I made a conscious decision not to try to play to a high professional standard. There are just too many wonderful instruments and too much fascinating music in the world for me to limit myself in that way, so I prefer to make my money elsewhere and enjoy making music when I can (and, possibly, I realized I just didn't have the chops to go pro!). Unfortunately, I've found that keeping up to even my low standards limits me to about 4 instruments at a time, max. But like I said, no chops! BTW, and just to clarify, dilettantism is not a charge coming from me. Best to all, and keep playing, Chris. Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com 2/6/2009 6:43 AM I've been bothered by the charge of dilettantism (someone who prefers diversity to virtuosity) which was raised on this list recently. How many different instruments is it possible to play to a high professional standard? One? Two? And how many do most lutenists try to play? Four? Eight? And the differences are not trivial: sizes, playing techniques, tunings, repertoire, notation... Hans Keller once wrote an essay denouncing Phoney Professions, one of which was the Viola Player. Phoney, because playing the viola is so similar to playing the violin that specialist viola players shouldn't need to exist. Yet they persist. The string player's quest for the highest possible standard on his/her instrument trumps Keller's logic. Are we in the lute world systematically harming our playing standards, even the reputation of our instrument, by spreading ourselves too thin? Wouldn't we do better to specialise? Peter (lute, theorbo, classical guitar, baroque guitar, ocarina...) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1936 - Release Date: 2/5/2009 11:34 AM
[LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill
Totally. How many people can make jarring sounds musically and meaningfully? RT - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill ;-) Honest, Roman ? JM === 07-02-2009 01:48:26 === Musicality. RT - Original Message - From: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill At what? jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 07-02-2009 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
On and on and on it goes ... I'm afraid I've got no time to engage in empty rhetoric here; if only I had been a historian ... Anyway, why not roll up your sleeves and take up some practical steps in sorting out all those fakes that no one knows about and then report us back on your findings, that would be great. And I'll keep my eyes peeled, whatever that means historically. Alexander - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica I'm not talking about the copies we know about, I'm talking about the copies we don't know about. There's a difference. The ones we don't know about--and they are everywhere--are the good ones. The idea that the guilds were strictly enforced in quite charming--have you looked at court records from the time? Seems like everyone was either a spy or a snitch. You can of course claim that there are no unknown forgeries--but history would not be on your side. Historical instruments are rarely tested with the specialized tools used in paintings--and even ifthere were, there is less information available about the materials. Strads and some other fiddles being the exception. It's a question of economics. The other reason s that musea rarely devalue their collections by tossing out the opera dubia--it also makes them look silly when they admit they have been showcasing a fake. As far as daft, well--I like to think of myself as an historian, Historically, daft was the same word as deft. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
As I recall - Edlinger routinely manufactured conversions of earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments. RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:01 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica On and on and on it goes ... I'm afraid I've got no time to engage in empty rhetoric here; if only I had been a historian ... Anyway, why not roll up your sleeves and take up some practical steps in sorting out all those fakes that no one knows about and then report us back on your findings, that would be great. And I'll keep my eyes peeled, whatever that means historically. Alexander - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:37 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica I'm not talking about the copies we know about, I'm talking about the copies we don't know about. There's a difference. The ones we don't know about--and they are everywhere--are the good ones. The idea that the guilds were strictly enforced in quite charming--have you looked at court records from the time? Seems like everyone was either a spy or a snitch. You can of course claim that there are no unknown forgeries--but history would not be on your side. Historical instruments are rarely tested with the specialized tools used in paintings--and even ifthere were, there is less information available about the materials. Strads and some other fiddles being the exception. It's a question of economics. The other reason s that musea rarely devalue their collections by tossing out the opera dubia--it also makes them look silly when they admit they have been showcasing a fake. As far as daft, well--I like to think of myself as an historian, Historically, daft was the same word as deft. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
BTW, No one seems to have cared/dared to comment on the Kaliopi Karamazov Duet video. It is great music. Here it is again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvP4uZjAf_k RT - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr; lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:42 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill Totally. How many people can make jarring sounds musically and meaningfully? RT - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill ;-) Honest, Roman ? JM === 07-02-2009 01:48:26 === Musicality. RT - Original Message - From: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill At what? jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 07-02-2009 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov--was Trench Fill
h maybe. Or maybe no one is the best. There are 5-6 who are. Can you post some comparisons? Than might cause a bit of ill-will. I've certainly heard better perfomances of the chromatic fantasies. dt I haven't. RT At 03:54 PM 2/6/2009, you wrote: That may very well be, but it is hard to fathom, considering that at his worst he is still better than all of us. RT - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:10 PM Subject: [LUTE] Karamzov--was Trench Fill I think Karamazov is at his best when he adopts techniques from historical keyboard players. His Bach Toccata (OK, maybe not Bach, whatever) has some very interesting, real baroque stuff in it. Very traditional, basic baroque. Would it be even better with Bach style ornaments? dt At 04:32 AM 2/3/2009, you wrote: From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better. Some are. Some aren't. I've no objection to musical freedom, I just advocate try then decide. I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a whole book of deconstructionist. dt Exactly. You've said it. That why I try to learn something from Karamazov. RT At 04:40 AM 2/2/2009, you wrote: As you might expect - I advocate the same thing as Haynes, sans balking. I'd rather deal with the last Tuesday's trills, than anything by, say, Matteis. RT From: David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net On Feb 1, 2009, at 6:10 PM, Mark Wheeler wrote: You should check out Bruce Haynes book The end of early music I couldn't agree more. It's a very good read. Although Haynes is a strong advocate for the writing of new music in the Baroque style, which makes me balk a little bit. I'd rather go to original 17th- or 18th-Century sources than try to deal with French trills in something written last Tuesday. DR dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
You mean (or whoever, from where you quoted from) that Edlinger's manufactured conversions are somehow different from genuine earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments? Or was that just a theory that he was involved in a business of manufactured conversions? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica As I recall - Edlinger routinely manufactured conversions of earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
On Feb 6, 2009, at 7:11 PM, jsl...@verizon.net wrote: Isn't it possible that playing several plucked instruments can be mutually reinforcing? If I spend all day playing the vihuela, won't that improve my lute playing? If I work on achieving perfect, pearl-like tones on my six-course, won't that improve my tone on the ten-course? If I learn to play the bass strings on my baroque lute, won't that help me on the theorbo basses? If I learn to play continuo on the theorbo, won't that make me a better all-round musician? Agreed. Absolutely. The lute world consists of a diversity of instruments, and off-hand I can't think of any professional virtuosi who have confined themselves to just one of them. My point is that I don't think their virtuosity has been diminished by the variety of instruments they have recorded on. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Yes but.. The but for me hinges on the words professional virtuosi - as someone who does not earn his bread playing music (thereby enforcing literal amateur status) I have only the time left over from a job that eats 50 hours weekly. So I don't have time to keep even one instrument up to a standard I would respect. Sometimes the Baroque lute sits around unplayed for weeks. These days it's the vihuela. Can't even remember the last time I even tuned the poor old viola da gamba- and at one point it had more professional importance for me than the lutes. The steel-string guitar (my stealth opharion/bandora) sits in the same corner keeping the viol company. I see them making sad faces at me, bored out of their minds. At one time, it was the noble amateur who was esteemed as being the most learned sort of well-rounded human being; for only he (living off the labor of others, not even burdened by maintaining his own home personal chores) who could play a number of expensive plucked strings, bowed strings, perhaps also a keyboard and wind instrument or two, AND had time for poetry, tennis, riding and even hunting! One of the criticisms leveled at the violoncello in the 18th century, I believe in The Defense of the Viol against the pretensions of the Violoncello (unsure of proper French spelling, amateur that I am) was that it required a single purpose fanatical training just to play the fretless instrument in tune, and still too much time to maintain proficiency, whereas the cultured, well-rounded, educated gentleman could retain enough ability to stay well practiced enough on the viol and still have time for a full life, including of course other instruments. The real professional, then as now, had- and has- more time, (even if still insufficient for all things) by virtue of it being his profession. Dan, grudgingly dilettante to the end. Isn't it possible that playing several plucked instruments can be mutually reinforcing? If I spend all day playing the vihuela, won't that improve my lute playing? If I work on achieving perfect, pearl-like tones on my six-course, won't that improve my tone on the ten-course? If I learn to play the bass strings on my baroque lute, won't that help me on the theorbo basses? If I learn to play continuo on the theorbo, won't that make me a better all-round musician? The lute world consists of a diversity of instruments, and off-hand I can't think of any professional virtuosi who have confined themselves to just one of them. My point is that I don't think their virtuosity has been diminished by the variety of instruments they have recorded on. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
I'm suspecting that the real question Peter raised is being skirted by the respondents' reaction to the supposition of a charge of dilettantism. Now that I've caught up a little, I see that he isn't necessarily saying that lutenists tending to dilettantism is bad, just that other musicians' (and possibly the public's) opinion of lutenists may be suffering due to the lack of single-focus pros. That makes this a PR question, rather than a historical or technique question. For my part, I guess I've never felt that it was a problem. When I find a piece of music which includes lute, my music-making associates are more than happy to play it with me. None of them consider my lack of professional credentials. The people I know who have taken up lute never have given a second thought to whether the lutenist they heard who got them 'on the path' was professionally rated above the currently-esteemed violin meister. Quite the contrary, the lute seems to make its own following, and the archlute and theorbo and all the other variants have no problem drawing the unsuspecting guitarist in... ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Le 7 févr. 09 à 16:43, David Rastall a écrit : On Feb 6, 2009, at 7:11 PM, jsl...@verizon.net wrote: Isn't it possible that playing several plucked instruments can be mutually reinforcing? If I spend all day playing the vihuela, won't that improve my lute playing? If I work on achieving perfect, pearl-like tones on my six-course, won't that improve my tone on the ten-course? If I learn to play the bass strings on my baroque lute, won't that help me on the theorbo basses? If I learn to play continuo on the theorbo, won't that make me a better all-round musician? Agreed. Absolutely. The lute world consists of a diversity of instruments, and off-hand I can't think of any professional virtuosi who have confined themselves to just one of them. I supose it depends on what you call a diversity of instruments, and also what you call a rofessional virtuoso. I can think of professional players who do limit themselves to Renaissance lutes, Jacob Heringman, and this does seem to have allowed him to develop an extremely elegant Renaissance RH position. However, Denys Stephens, I think, in an article about Thumb over with 5c and possibly 6c lute performance did say that he thought less work had been done on LH technique just because of the variety of Renaissance lutes played by most renaissance lutists, including Jacob. I can think of two French based professionals who use only one lute (not the same one), and that is Pascale Boquet on a 7c lute Renaissance lute, and Miguel Serdoura on a 13c J-barred lute. My point is that I don't think their virtuosity has been diminished by the variety of instruments they have recorded on. I do agree with that, but different qualities would presumably be developed in both cases. Perhaps, it is not just a question of the number of instruments played (Jacob H. versus Pascale B.) but the diversity in music, from Renaissance to Baroque (Jacob Heringman versus Jakob Lindberg). Presumably, a historic virtuoso, however many instruments they played, would have been completely versed in every aspect of the music of their time, and possibly the period before. This allowed them to be performer-composers, with a strong ability to improvise. I know some modern performers have developed this potential, even if they do play a number of different styles and period music, but perhaps not to the same degree. Perhaps, players who do not specialize in Renaissance or Baroque music, also tend to compromise more in relation to RH and LH positioning (shifting as little as possible), Hoppy for example. Whether this is good or bad, of course, is not quite so clear. However, you are probably right that a general knowledge of music types probably does make a better musician, and certainly, familiarity with an immediately preceding period must allow a better understanding of the dynamics, the tensions and developments at work within the music of a given time. Anthony Davidr dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Pascale Boquet is also playing vihuela, archlute, theorbo and renaissance guitar. (concert and recordings) V. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr I can think of two French based professionals who use only one lute (not the same one), and that is Pascale Boquet on a 7c lute Renaissance lute, and Miguel Serdoura on a 13c J-barred lute. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Oups sorry. I was thinking of the lute she was playing. I believe she always plays the 7c lute, but again I might be wrong. Anthony Le 7 févr. 09 à 18:59, Sauvage Valéry a écrit : Pascale Boquet is also playing vihuela, archlute, theorbo and renaissance guitar. (concert and recordings) V. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr I can think of two French based professionals who use only one lute (not the same one), and that is Pascale Boquet on a 7c lute Renaissance lute, and Miguel Serdoura on a 13c J-barred lute. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
From my own experiance I would argue the other way but strongly believe both approaches are valid. For the past 8 years I've played only 6c lutes. The course cap was entirely deliberate to cut down on instrument and genre overload. Rather than having one 6c to play the pre-1600 rep, I have 3 (and, alas, soon 4) and rather than have more genres to fill out my education on what's-out-there-and-how-to-play-it, I have a variety of timbres, note sustainments, brightnesses, etc to explore. It also promotes a left hand elasticity w/out my right hand looking for basses and new thumb positions. When I first started this experiment the 'rule of thumb' was what was available to one person's lifetime if he had died ~1595 which I thought would give me a pretty big window. Huge window, in fact. It turns out that most of the books I have would not have been available to an amateur player or even a successful professional and even then, I'm not sure he'd want to be hampered by having to keep on top of all that diversity. So in any year I let go of Johnson to hike through Phalese for a while (an endless while, mind you) which I let go of to play Spinacino which is let go to play Blindhammer and then experiment w/ Buxheimer and the 15th century and then get called back to VGalilei. And the cycle continues. (For those of us worried about HIP performances, we should know that no ren player ever played w/ as much variety as we. It seems obvious but distraction is the enemy of focus. We can play ren music on ren instruments but we'll never be ren musicians. We're curators at best) I have a huge stock of English solos and trios (bass viol, cittern, lute) for which this approach works fine but Cutting (for example, whom I love) it is touch-and-go. I can translate the basses of Anne Markham's Pavin well enough but my favorite Sans Per Pavin is out of reach. It was a difficult decision but I'm at peace w/ it. Most of the English golden age song rep is doable too but brings me to the edge of what's possible on a 6c. And plenty of people play Dowland just fine in my neighborhood; they don't need me to muddy the water (John Smyth's Almain is good to go, and I'll just have to be content having heard the fantasies a zillion times ;) And yes, I have to tiptoe through Molinaro (another fave) but the trade-off is that I know the background of almost every chanson in Spinacino and can play most of them to my satisfaction. I can buy recordings of Molinaro and occasionally hear him in concert but I can also arrange a Spinacino-based vocal performance which I would never hear otherwise --or want to-- and learn a heck of a lot along theway. I have also found that I dug way deeper into the 6c repertory than if I had been splitting my time between Hely, Kapsberger, Dowland, Wiess _and_ been on the lookout for basso continuo jobs. I enjoy what I've learned and realize that it couldn't have happened otherwise. Then again, I could have explored even more if I didn't split my time w/ work. But probably still would have been content in a solely 6c-world. My 2 cents. Sean On Feb 7, 2009, at 7:43 AM, David Rastall wrote: On Feb 6, 2009, at 7:11 PM, jsl...@verizon.net wrote: Isn't it possible that playing several plucked instruments can be mutually reinforcing? If I spend all day playing the vihuela, won't that improve my lute playing? If I work on achieving perfect, pearl-like tones on my six-course, won't that improve my tone on the ten-course? If I learn to play the bass strings on my baroque lute, won't that help me on the theorbo basses? If I learn to play continuo on the theorbo, won't that make me a better all-round musician? Agreed. Absolutely. The lute world consists of a diversity of instruments, and off-hand I can't think of any professional virtuosi who have confined themselves to just one of them. My point is that I don't think their virtuosity has been diminished by the variety of instruments they have recorded on. Davidr dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
One thing I didn't address in my rant; Are we in the lute world systematically harming our playing standards, even the reputation of our instrument, by spreading ourselves too thin? Wouldn't we do better to specialise? As to harming playing standards (apart from time constraints) I find that archlute/Baroque lute practice mutually reinforce each other, archlute/vihuela reinforce each other, and 6-course lute/vihuela sort of reinforce each other. 6-course lute and Barque lute don't care if they never see each other; and the steel-string guitar is happy to ruin things for all the other instruments if practiced to excess. Specialization always helps when practice time is limited. I don't know about you all, or the instrument as a personified entity, but we won't even talk about my bad reputation. Dan -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Sean's 2 cents is pure gold. And not just because of the rotten economy. Words of wisdom for all of us- Thanks! -Dan From my own experiance I would argue the other way but strongly believe both approaches are valid. For the past 8 years I've played only 6c lutes. The course cap was entirely deliberate to cut down on instrument and genre overload. Rather than having one 6c to play the pre-1600 rep, I have 3 (and, alas, soon 4) and rather than have more genres to fill out my education on what's-out-there-and-how-to-play-it, I have a variety of timbres, note sustainments, brightnesses, etc to explore. It also promotes a left hand elasticity w/out my right hand looking for basses and new thumb positions. When I first started this experiment the 'rule of thumb' was what was available to one person's lifetime if he had died ~1595 which I thought would give me a pretty big window. Huge window, in fact. It turns out that most of the books I have would not have been available to an amateur player or even a successful professional and even then, I'm not sure he'd want to be hampered by having to keep on top of all that diversity. So in any year I let go of Johnson to hike through Phalese for a while (an endless while, mind you) which I let go of to play Spinacino which is let go to play Blindhammer and then experiment w/ Buxheimer and the 15th century and then get called back to VGalilei. And the cycle continues. (For those of us worried about HIP performances, we should know that no ren player ever played w/ as much variety as we. It seems obvious but distraction is the enemy of focus. We can play ren music on ren instruments but we'll never be ren musicians. We're curators at best) I have a huge stock of English solos and trios (bass viol, cittern, lute) for which this approach works fine but Cutting (for example, whom I love) it is touch-and-go. I can translate the basses of Anne Markham's Pavin well enough but my favorite Sans Per Pavin is out of reach. It was a difficult decision but I'm at peace w/ it. Most of the English golden age song rep is doable too but brings me to the edge of what's possible on a 6c. And plenty of people play Dowland just fine in my neighborhood; they don't need me to muddy the water (John Smyth's Almain is good to go, and I'll just have to be content having heard the fantasies a zillion times ;) And yes, I have to tiptoe through Molinaro (another fave) but the trade-off is that I know the background of almost every chanson in Spinacino and can play most of them to my satisfaction. I can buy recordings of Molinaro and occasionally hear him in concert but I can also arrange a Spinacino-based vocal performance which I would never hear otherwise --or want to-- and learn a heck of a lot along theway. I have also found that I dug way deeper into the 6c repertory than if I had been splitting my time between Hely, Kapsberger, Dowland, Wiess _and_ been on the lookout for basso continuo jobs. I enjoy what I've learned and realize that it couldn't have happened otherwise. Then again, I could have explored even more if I didn't split my time w/ work. But probably still would have been content in a solely 6c-world. My 2 cents. Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Renaissance lute, and Miguel Serdoura on a 13c J-barred lute. Note that barring has become an operative trait, whereas bass rider vs. swan neck may go unmentioned 8) -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Le 7 févr. 09 à 19:38, Mathias Rösel a écrit : Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Renaissance lute, and Miguel Serdoura on a 13c J-barred lute. Note that barring has become an operative trait, whereas bass rider vs. swan neck may go unmentioned 8) -- Mathias Oh well, that was but one detail that Miguel told me personally, he particularly thought was important to his sound. Yes, his lute is a rider lute, and I am glad to see that you no longer seem to think that the one automatically entails the other. Also he uses nylgut strings, and does not play very far back from the rose, in a position closer to the Jacques Gautier painting, than the Charles Mouton one. And I dare say there are many other things that I have forgotten to add, but the main point was that at present he plays one lute and sticks to the Baroque repertoire. Perhaps he is the only one to do that. Oh what about Robert Barto, I don't know how many lutes he has, but he now seems to pretty much stick to Weiss. Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill
Quite funny -- Karamazov (by accident of course!) in context of dilettantism on the list now... ;-)) J On 2009-02-07, at 09:55, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: ;-) Honest, Roman ? JM === 07-02-2009 01:48:26 === Musicality. RT - Original Message - From: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill At what? jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 07-02-2009 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Robert Barto is also playing romantic guitar. V. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr To: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de; lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dilettantism Le 7 févr. 09 à 19:38, Mathias Rösel a écrit : Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Renaissance lute, and Miguel Serdoura on a 13c J-barred lute. Note that barring has become an operative trait, whereas bass rider vs. swan neck may go unmentioned 8) -- Mathias Oh well, that was but one detail that Miguel told me personally, he particularly thought was important to his sound. Yes, his lute is a rider lute, and I am glad to see that you no longer seem to think that the one automatically entails the other. Also he uses nylgut strings, and does not play very far back from the rose, in a position closer to the Jacques Gautier painting, than the Charles Mouton one. And I dare say there are many other things that I have forgotten to add, but the main point was that at present he plays one lute and sticks to the Baroque repertoire. Perhaps he is the only one to do that. Oh what about Robert Barto, I don't know how many lutes he has, but he now seems to pretty much stick to Weiss. Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Yes, his lute is a rider lute, and I am glad to see that you no longer seem to think that the one automatically entails the other. As an amateur, I do think that J-barring preceded fan barring and that bass rider lutes preceded swan-necked lutes. Also he uses nylgut strings, and does not play very far back from the rose, in a position closer to the Jacques Gautier painting, than the Charles Mouton one. Which results in a sound cloer to the classical guitar than what a gut-strung baroque can be expected to sound IMHO. I've listened to his CD several times by now, and I must say, his performance certainly is impeccable, but I do not particularly like the sound. Matter of taste, probably. -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Corected again, but the since I said the phenomonon should be considered in terms of more or less, he is still quite a good example of a tendance towards specialization (contrasting in that with Hoppy, Lindberg, etc). Anthony Le 7 févr. 09 à 20:38, Sauvage Valéry a écrit : Robert Barto is also playing romantic guitar. V. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr To: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de; lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dilettantism Le 7 févr. 09 à 19:38, Mathias Rösel a écrit : Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Renaissance lute, and Miguel Serdoura on a 13c J-barred lute. Note that barring has become an operative trait, whereas bass rider vs. swan neck may go unmentioned 8) -- Mathias Oh well, that was but one detail that Miguel told me personally, he particularly thought was important to his sound. Yes, his lute is a rider lute, and I am glad to see that you no longer seem to think that the one automatically entails the other. Also he uses nylgut strings, and does not play very far back from the rose, in a position closer to the Jacques Gautier painting, than the Charles Mouton one. And I dare say there are many other things that I have forgotten to add, but the main point was that at present he plays one lute and sticks to the Baroque repertoire. Perhaps he is the only one to do that. Oh what about Robert Barto, I don't know how many lutes he has, but he now seems to pretty much stick to Weiss. Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Interview Paul O'Dette
Could be of some interest... http://www.bruceduffie.com/odette2.html Val To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
That I don't know. But Edlinger would certainly have put Tiffenbreucker labels on the instruments he made from scratch. RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica You mean (or whoever, from where you quoted from) that Edlinger's manufactured conversions are somehow different from genuine earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments? Or was that just a theory that he was involved in a business of manufactured conversions? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica As I recall - Edlinger routinely manufactured conversions of earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
My real question was about the highest professional standards, and specifically whether lutenists can ever hope to match the standards of top pianists or violinists, for example, while they persist in spreading their efforts over so many different instruments. Diversity is fun, but can a lutenist ever hope to attain the mastery of Murray Perahia or Alfred Brendel (and this is not just about virtuosity) when he is torn in so many directions? Excellence requires some hard choices to be made. P On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:57 PM, William Brohinsky [1]tiorbin...@gmail.com wrote: I'm suspecting that the real question Peter raised is being skirted by the respondents' reaction to the supposition of a charge of dilettantism. Now that I've caught up a little, I see that he isn't necessarily saying that lutenists tending to dilettantism is bad, just that other musicians' (and possibly the public's) opinion of lutenists may be suffering due to the lack of single-focus pros. That makes this a PR question, rather than a historical or technique question. For my part, I guess I've never felt that it was a problem. When I find a piece of music which includes lute, my music-making associates are more than happy to play it with me. None of them consider my lack of professional credentials. The people I know who have taken up lute never have given a second thought to whether the lutenist they heard who got them 'on the path' was professionally rated above the currently-esteemed violin meister. Quite the contrary, the lute seems to make its own following, and the archlute and theorbo and all the other variants have no problem drawing the unsuspecting guitarist in... ray To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Peter Martin Belle Serre La Caulie 81100 Castres France tel: 0033 5 63 35 68 46 e: [3]peter.l...@gmail.com web: [4]www.silvius.co.uk [5]http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ [6]www.myspace.com/sambuca999 [7]www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty -- References 1. mailto:tiorbin...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com 4. http://www.silvius.co.uk/ 5. http://absolute81.blogspot.com/ 6. http://www.myspace.com/sambuca999 7. http://www.myspace.com/chuckerbutty
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
IIRC (from what Bob told me several years ago), he makes a good chunk of his living teaching electric guitar to German teenagers, so presumably he has some familiarity with that instrument as well. Guy -Original Message- From: Sauvage Valéry [mailto:sauvag...@orange.fr] Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:39 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dilettantism Robert Barto is also playing romantic guitar. V. - Original Message - From: Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr To: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de; lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:09 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dilettantism Le 7 févr. 09 à 19:38, Mathias Rösel a écrit : Anthony Hind anthony.h...@noos.fr schrieb: Renaissance lute, and Miguel Serdoura on a 13c J-barred lute. Note that barring has become an operative trait, whereas bass rider vs. swan neck may go unmentioned 8) -- Mathias Oh well, that was but one detail that Miguel told me personally, he particularly thought was important to his sound. Yes, his lute is a rider lute, and I am glad to see that you no longer seem to think that the one automatically entails the other. Also he uses nylgut strings, and does not play very far back from the rose, in a position closer to the Jacques Gautier painting, than the Charles Mouton one. And I dare say there are many other things that I have forgotten to add, but the main point was that at present he plays one lute and sticks to the Baroque repertoire. Perhaps he is the only one to do that. Oh what about Robert Barto, I don't know how many lutes he has, but he now seems to pretty much stick to Weiss. Anthony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret positions, in meantone, for a given string length? Stuart It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers to multiply string length with. http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/meantone_f.html David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Diletantissimo!
Hey gang, I just found out that I have in a way or another - and more or less - tubed all my 8 instruments! :-) And I still do not touch d-minor tuned instruments, baroque guitars, medieval lutes, vihuelas, mandoras, callichons, ceteras , Sor/Guiliani-guitars,...,etc... ;-) All the best, I guess, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Diletantissimo!
Sorry, I forgot the links! Here: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/own/videos.html Arto On 2/8/2009, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: Hey gang, I just found out that I have in a way or another - and more or less - tubed all my 8 instruments! :-) And I still do not touch d-minor tuned instruments, baroque guitars, medieval lutes, vihuelas, mandoras, callichons, ceteras , Sor/Guiliani-guitars,...,etc... ;-) All the best, I guess, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com wrote: My real question was about the highest professional standards, and specifically whether lutenists can ever hope to match the standards of top pianists or violinists, for example, while they persist in spreading their efforts over so many different instruments. I have to say that I think the answer is, yes. First off, though, I have to disclaim that I don't do well at who is better, Perlmann or Brendel? kinds of questions. There are differences between instruments which necessitate differences in what makes for mastery. I doubt that Brendel ever concerns himself with intonation, while playing: for a pianist, it is all tone and control. Can you really compare a pianist with a violinist, then? The violin, on the other hand, rarely has to deal with more than one voice at a time, and never ever has to deal with voices singing four octaves apart. It is an entirely different ball of wax to integrate six voices in a Bach fugue into ten fingers on a keyboard from anything a violin soloist has to deal with. So, then, is Paul O'dette so much less a master of lute _and_ theorbo or chitarrone than Perlmann or Midori on violin, Brendel or Ashkenazi or Perahiah on piano, Harrell or Ma on 'cello... etc, etc, etc. We have a number of very accomplished virtuosi playing lutes, theorbos, archlutes, chitarroni... O'dette, North, Smith... they're all different, but they all take lute music, and within fairly historical boundaries produce music that rises above the marks on the paper to move hearts. Is it necessary that we question their mastery? (As a counter, we could complain all day about POD's breathing, the odd whistling noises that a better microphone placement or adhesive snore-stopper might have eliminated. But is the a mark on his virtuosoisity? If so, what then of Malcolm Frager, an acknowledged virtuoso, famous and well-paid, whom I saw in the 70's, whose pedal foot's restless motion under the bench and back to the pedals even when no action was required from it distracted me completely from his performance? Does that disable him as a virtuoso? Or Perlmann's mugging?) So I'd have to say that I haven't seen any sign that the lute pros are being held back by playing more than one variety of lute, or, for that matter, that lute virtuosi in our time are significantly or noticeably less virtuosoistic (yes, I did pick that term up from Peter Schickele. Sorry!) than other instruments' luminaries. ray To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
I hear quite often no one can make an exact replica But of course in the art world, this happens all the time. My comments are merely to point out that not only is it possible, but that it has been dome already. I honestly don't know what the big deal is. David v.O. comments are certainly interesting, the best people at making fakes were other lute builders. I hadn't thought of that, but of course it is true. But my idea is much simpler. Say you have a bunch of lutes in a museum. Some of them are fakes. But because they are the good fakes, not the ones that say Kmart on them or are made with Ace hardware hinges, there is absolutely no way to tell which ones are real. They have yet to be identified as real or fake. They are just lutes (or any other instrument) in a museum.. There is no sign on them that says this us a fake. There is no entry in a museum catalog that says Fake (and the musea, as I have said before, have EXTREMELY low standards for instruments) And that shows, I believe, that it is possible to make an exact replica. Because it has already been done. The fact that we don't know which ones are real proves, for all practical purposes, that it can be done. Unless you think they are all real. But if everyone thinks they are all real, that also proves that it can be done. The only scenario in which it CANT be done, is the one in which all of the instruments are subjected to stringent scientific testing. All the fakes are weeded out. But that will never happen. Museums have absolutely no incentive to devalue their collection and admit that they were fooled. Bad for fundraising. And if it did happen, which it won't, there is still the possibility that the fakes were made using original materials and techniques. Which of course, they were, the good fakers do exactly that, or they did at at the same time, so they HAD to use original materials and techniques. In fact, some of the fakes from the renaissance are worse than modern copies! It would also be possible to compose a fake Dowland piece, even a fake Bach piece. Lots of Josquin, Handel and Corelli fakes floating around. The ones we know about, anyway. Happens all the time, has happened, will happen. dt At 12:51 PM 2/7/2009, you wrote: That I don't know. But Edlinger would certainly have put Tiffenbreucker labels on the instruments he made from scratch. RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica You mean (or whoever, from where you quoted from) that Edlinger's manufactured conversions are somehow different from genuine earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments? Or was that just a theory that he was involved in a business of manufactured conversions? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica As I recall - Edlinger routinely manufactured conversions of earlier Tiffenbrucker instruments. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements
I can vouch that David's system works perfectly and as I result I owe him a beer for life. dt At 02:53 PM 2/7/2009, you wrote: On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: Did someone once put up a calculator which which worked out fret positions, in meantone, for a given string length? Stuart It's not exactly a calculator, but it has a table with numbers to multiply string length with. http://home.planet.nl/~ooije006/david/writings/meantone_f.html David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
Well, you see, there is only one example of surviving lute of this kind so it would be safer to put things in singular. However, even this 'theory' still remains one big guess. For example, the body could have been rebuild from the original one by Tieffenbrucker (say, because it was too large for a customer who commissioned its 13-course conversion), a sort of cut lute as is described in the Burwell Lute Tutor. Consequently the original soundboard could have been re-used from the same instrument too. Or he only re-used the soundboard but felt obliged to include Tieffenbrucker's label too. We just don't know. Edlinger, as all string instrument makers of the time, labelled (or called for better word) himself Lauten und Geigenmacher but did he actually make any lutes from scratch or are they all conversions? That's another big question that has not yet been definitely answered. AB Roman Turovsky wrote: That I don't know. But Edlinger would certainly have put Tiffenbreucker labels on the instruments he made from scratch. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: was trench fill now exact replica
I'm finding this increasingly difficult to follow. On Feb 7, 2009, at 3:33 PM, David Tayler wrote: But my idea is much simpler. Say you have a bunch of lutes in a museum. Some of them are fakes. But because they are the good fakes, not the ones that say Kmart on them or are made with Ace hardware hinges, there is absolutely no way to tell which ones are real. Are you saying that some instrument in a museum labeled as a Tieffenbrucker or Hieber is really a copy made in 1850 or 1900? And nobody knows because it's such a good copy? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
On Feb 7, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: I can think of professional players who do limit themselves to Renaissance lutes, Jacob Heringman, and this does seem to have allowed him to develop an extremely elegant Renaissance RH position. A quick look through my CD collection shows that Jacob Heringperson has made recordings on cittern, bandora (see ASV/Gaudeamus GAU CD 17), renaissance guitar (see Naxos 8.553325) and theorbo (see Hyperion cda 7). The whole discussion of dilettantism is beside the point. It's been scientifically proven that what prevents lutenists from developing superior technique is not the time they spend practicing and playing different instruments, but the time they spend in internet discussion groups. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Roman Turovsky [1]r.turov...@verizon.net wrote: BTW, No one seems to have cared/dared to comment on the Kaliopi Karamazov Duet video. -- References 1. mailto:r.turov...@verizon.net To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Interview Paul O'Dette
Thanks, Val. The interview date at the bottom of the page is 1993; that was 16 years ago! Still, it is a good read. ed At 09:48 PM 2/7/2009 +0100, Sauvage Valéry wrote: Could be of some interest... http://www.bruceduffie.com/odette2.html Val To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1938 - Release Date: 02/05/09 11:34:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
That would be too depressing to believe. RT From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.netwrote: BTW, No one seems to have cared/dared to comment on the Kaliopi Karamazov Duet video. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: meantone fret position measurements
On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 12:35 AM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I can vouch that David's system works perfectly and as I result I owe him a beer for life. I'll take you up on that one! David - just wondering: won't that give a headache for life? *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Interview Paul O'Dette
Yes I know it is an old one, but I didn't knew it before... so perhaps I'm not alone in this case, as you said, still good to read anyway ! ;-) Val - Original Message - From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr; lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Interview Paul O'Dette Thanks, Val. The interview date at the bottom of the page is 1993; that was 16 years ago! Still, it is a good read. ed At 09:48 PM 2/7/2009 +0100, Sauvage Valéry wrote: Could be of some interest... http://www.bruceduffie.com/odette2.html Val To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1938 - Release Date: 02/05/09 11:34:00 Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202
