[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
On May 3, 2012, at 1:06 AM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: > I actually think a a 7th course in D and fingering the third fret will work > fine for me in the majority of stuff I want to play Right now my 7th course is old and fingering the 3rd fret is really sharp. I have to remember to really push the string towards the bridge. This point is clearly an advantage for 8 courses. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
The 7 course configurtation can be superior- in somewhat the same way & for the same reasons that an 11 course Baroque lute is far more elegant, architecturally sounder, easier to handle, and tonally balanced than the 13 course bass rider thing- but which is the model I own, because I play Weiss- esp. late Weiss, more than any other composer for the d-minor lute. I think that with 8 courses, the instrument should be at least 59 cm. string length to have enough body air space & neck length not to look clunky and provide enough sonic resonance. On that basis I have no problem at all with my own 62 cm. 8 course lute. My 7 course solution is a 64 cm. SL "Chambure" vihuela copy from Harris & Barber; the body- unlike many vihuela models- is plenty wide enough for a 7 course neck and has all the bass capacity for the extra range (7th a fourth down, permanently). I admit I cheat, and use the lute tuning rather than the conceptually different 7-course vihuela tuning. I'm impressed with all the solutions & insights others have been giving here, always more to learn. Dan On May 2, 2012, at 2:23 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: > On 2 May 2012 17:39, Joshua Burkholder wrote: > >> I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on >> my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and >> if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. > > Hi Joshua, welcome to lute café > > You want a 7-course? Stick with it, I think they are superior > instruments (I play - among far too many other stringy things - 6, 8 > and 10-course Renaissance lutes and are the living embodiment of the > definition of a lute player: an instrumentalist always one instrument > short). My experience is: less string makes better instruments > (shorter bridge gives more freedom to the top / a limited range is > easier for a lute body and/or luthier to handle ...?). > I think you'll be fine with a 7th course tuned to F. If you need the > occasional low D, you'll transpose up an octave or will accept the > absence. If you'll have periods of playing lots of low D music, you'll > change strings. If it's the occasional piece, you'll retune and will > learn to live with a flabby string (give the strings some days to > settle, give yourself some days to come to terms with the low tension, > adapt your technique: play close to the bridge, change the angle of > your thumb). You'd be surprised at the range of string tensions > amongst lute players (I am, anyway, whenever I pick up an instrument > form somebody else), so if there's other people that can play on > ridiculously low/high tensions, you can for the occasional piece. > anyway, choose a string diameter for E or E-flat, and you'll be double > safe. I tune the low D on my 8-course to C without trouble. The whole > 8-course used to go up and down between 415 to 440 before I had the > luxury of seperate 415 and 440 lutes. My 6-course still goes up and > down a whole tone (g or a, whatever is needed) occasionally with the > same strings even. It takes a little time for the > strings/instrument/me to adjust, but it works. > > David - a 7-course, hmm, on my wish list for sure > > > -- > *** > David van Ooijen > davidvanooi...@gmail.com > www.davidvanooijen.nl > *** > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
This isn't just a 7c problem. I play a 10c in transitional tunings and need to change the top couple of courses for viel ton tuning. My way of working is to concentrate on pieces for your current stringing. Once you've exhausted that repertoire, restring and retune for another repertoire. The alternative is to have several identical lutes in different tunings and a roadie to keep them in tune for you when you're gigging :o) Bill From: Sam Chapman To: Joshua Burkholder Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, 2 May 2012, 22:55 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Hi Joshua, I have a 7-course lute and I usually tune the 7th course to D. However, I keep an extra 7th course in the case, and if I'm playing lots of music where I need the 7th course in F I simply change it over. It takes about 5 minutes to change the course, and if you use plain gut strings they tune up and keep their tuning (more or less) in a matter of minutes. I'm fussy about string tensions, so I wouldn't attempt to retune the same strings. Good luck with your lute playing - I think a 7-course instrument is a great place to start! Sam On 2 May 2012 17:39, Joshua Burkholder <[1]burkholder.jos...@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear lute-listers, > > A question from a beginner: > > First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: > > I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... > > Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. > > Best wishes, > > Joshua > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91 -- References 1. mailto:burkholder.jos...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Hi Joshua, I have a 7-course lute and I usually tune the 7th course to D. However, I keep an extra 7th course in the case, and if I'm playing lots of music where I need the 7th course in F I simply change it over. It takes about 5 minutes to change the course, and if you use plain gut strings they tune up and keep their tuning (more or less) in a matter of minutes. I'm fussy about string tensions, so I wouldn't attempt to retune the same strings. Good luck with your lute playing - I think a 7-course instrument is a great place to start! Sam On 2 May 2012 17:39, Joshua Burkholder wrote: > Dear lute-listers, > > A question from a beginner: > > First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute > for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am > really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am > now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After > much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to > start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. > So onto to my question: > > I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on > my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if > I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume > that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would > likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with > Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change > from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to > this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only > be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to > re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just > keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course > lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will > be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... > > Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. > > Best wishes, > > Joshua > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Sam Chapman Oetlingerstrasse 65 4057 Basel (0041) 79 530 39 91
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
On 2 May 2012 17:39, Joshua Burkholder wrote: > I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on > my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if > I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. Hi Joshua, welcome to lute café You want a 7-course? Stick with it, I think they are superior instruments (I play - among far too many other stringy things - 6, 8 and 10-course Renaissance lutes and are the living embodiment of the definition of a lute player: an instrumentalist always one instrument short). My experience is: less string makes better instruments (shorter bridge gives more freedom to the top / a limited range is easier for a lute body and/or luthier to handle ...?). I think you'll be fine with a 7th course tuned to F. If you need the occasional low D, you'll transpose up an octave or will accept the absence. If you'll have periods of playing lots of low D music, you'll change strings. If it's the occasional piece, you'll retune and will learn to live with a flabby string (give the strings some days to settle, give yourself some days to come to terms with the low tension, adapt your technique: play close to the bridge, change the angle of your thumb). You'd be surprised at the range of string tensions amongst lute players (I am, anyway, whenever I pick up an instrument form somebody else), so if there's other people that can play on ridiculously low/high tensions, you can for the occasional piece. anyway, choose a string diameter for E or E-flat, and you'll be double safe. I tune the low D on my 8-course to C without trouble. The whole 8-course used to go up and down between 415 to 440 before I had the luxury of seperate 415 and 440 lutes. My 6-course still goes up and down a whole tone (g or a, whatever is needed) occasionally with the same strings even. It takes a little time for the strings/instrument/me to adjust, but it works. David - a 7-course, hmm, on my wish list for sure -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
It is on the 8th course. I have seen the practice of going with D on 7th, F on 8th, but I could never do that, as I predominantly play baroque lute, and inverting these 2 would be most treacherous, for me. ed At 01:20 PM 5/2/2012, Miles Dempster wrote: >Hi Ed, > >On your 8-course do you have the D on the 7th or 8th course? > > >Miles > > >On 2012-05-02, at 2:05 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > > > Hi Sean, > > > > Actually, I do not have a 7-course lute at the moment, I use an > > 8-course for renaissance lute, as for the reasons cited. i did have > > a 7-course, which was converted to an 11-course, Frei. When I used > > it as a 7-course lute, I essentially had it strung with a string > > in-between the 2 tones... it was low tension for the D, high tension > > with the F. Using gimped strings on that, it worked OK, but i really > > like the 8 course, as one has access to both. > > > > English music seems to favor the D, where continental music seems to > > favor the F. > > > > ed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 12:52 PM 5/2/2012, Sean Smith wrote: > > > >> If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, > >> which > >> in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and > >> play > >> 10 course music... > >> > >> Very true, Bruno, I loved exploring the Vallet and Ballard books for > >> years on my 8c, turning singers on to Airs de cours and knowing that > >> nearly all the English was, at least, doable w/out retuning something. > >> > >> That said, I've seen some lovely 7c instruments and they sound better > >> for resisting the extra course. Ed Martin's, for example, as well as > >> Jacob Herringman's 7c Gerle. The latter is interesting in that it > >> retains the earlier parabolic neck which, I think, would not support 8 > >> courses. If that is your route you're well set up to go to the 6c. > >> > >> Ed, I believe you have a gut bass w/ a metal filament on the 7th > >> course on that instrument. Could you weigh in on how it does re: > >> Joshua's question? I'm curious myself. > >> > >> Dalza expected lutes to accept a one-step scordatura and in one > >> 'suite' on the 5th course also. Could the extra half step really be > >> too much? > >> > >> But truthfully, Joshua, a 7c is a fine place to start and I applaud > >> your resolution. You'll work out the D/F situation one way or another. > >> > >> Sean > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> A > >> > >> A > >> > >> Bruno > >> > >> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> > >> wrote: > >> > >>It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit > >>your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty > >>ubiquitous today. > >>Best, > >>Eugene > >> > >> -Original Message- > >> From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > >> [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM > >> To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c > >> Dear lute-listers, > >> A question from a beginner: > >> First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing > >> the > >> lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple > >> weeks > >> and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental > >> 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and > >> buying a > >> lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the > >> best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion > >> that > >> a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: > >> I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, > >> but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is > >> stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and > >> flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which > >> I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise > >> it to > >> F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses > >> are > >> metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same > >> string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her > >> tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be > >> possible to > >> raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re- string? > >> Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just > >> keeping > >> it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course > >> lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that > >> it > >> will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... > >> Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. > >> Best wishes, > >> Joshua > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >> -- > >> > >> A > >> > >> Bruno Cognyl-Fournier > >> > >> A >
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
In my own limited experience with an 8 course, tuning the D down to a C (just one tone!) created the problem you cite. It took some time with a string calculator to find a string that would work at both pitches. (I used gimped gut with plain gut octave, btw.) Leonard On 5/2/12 11:39 AM, "Joshua Burkholder" wrote: >Dear lute-listers, > >A question from a beginner: > >First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the >lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks >and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental >7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a >lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best >number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a >7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: > >I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but >on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F >and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From >this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the >whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the >lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it >only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut >strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung >to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut >strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use >some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering >the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough >about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I >understand anything about stringing lutes... > >Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. > >Best wishes, > >Joshua > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE-BUILDER] Re: Why no mahogany?
Bill, Mahogany as an export timber arrived on the scene fairly late in terms of lute construction. Very little of it made its way into European cabinetry shops until the 18th century. Most of the mahogany growing at that time was in areas controlled by Spain and in 1622 Cuban mahogany was declared a royal monopoly for use in ship building. As a rib material the fibrous, deeply pored structure is kind of at odds with most of the traditional choices like maple, ebony, ivory and yew. I don't see why it couldn't be used, and I'm almost certain I've seen an oud or two that employed it. Central American and Cuban mahoganies are now listed under the CITES treaty as endangered and moving the material across borders is getting difficult. Cheers, Ted - Original Message - From: "William Samson" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 2:09 PM Subject: [LUTE-BUILDER] Why no mahogany? Dear Collective Wisdom, I see that mahogany is never recommended as a lute building material (except perhaps for neck blocks). I wonder why this should be? Are there no surviving old lutes that used it? I do know that the Jacquemart-Andree vihuela is now believed to have dark mahogany pieces in its 'jigsaw' ribs. Cuban mahogany is not unusual in guitars. Mahogany is stable, can be beautiful if it comes from the Carribean or Central America, is easy to work . . . So why isn't it being used now and again for lute ribs? Just curious. Bill Samson -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Info of the Add. MS. 15117, British Museum?
A copy of this MS is available for Django registered users at http://musickshandmade.com/lute/facbooks/view/22. Everybody has access to the contents at the same address. Alain On 5/2/2012 12:19 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: On 2 May 2012 21:13, Arto Wikla wrote: I happened to find one page of the Add. MS. 15117, British Museum, among my That page was the "Willow Song" as a lute song with handwritten tabulature. Years and years ago that page was on display in the British Museum when I visited. Next to handwritten pages of song texts by the Beatles. Needless to say, I was in awe of both (it's all early music after all) and took pictures. I remember the Willow Song as a single page, btw. Daid To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
After about three years playing an 8 course lute, I acquired a 7 course. It is the 7 course instrument I now most often play; I do find it the most comfortable for me. I tune the 7th course to D and stop the F as needed. Ned On May 2, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: > Your post explains why the 8 course lute was developed, or as I like to call > it, the "Double 7" . I have never found a string material of any sort that > would stand up to a scordatura range exceeding a whole tone. Even going for a > compromise tension (say an ideal E/E-flat) would still be unsatisfactory for > me, but you could try tweaking that one. Some strange remedies to this > conundrum have been attempted- including a mechanical kind of hook through > the neck to pull down the low D at the 3rd fret. Only on some old, heavily > built compromise lutes. > > As a beginner, I would suggest having a 7th course dedicated to F. Unless you > come to the lute with say, an advanced guitar left hand it will take a > considerable amount of time & practice before you are able to fluently finger > a 7th course- much 6 course music is already as difficult as it gets in lute > land anyway. Many beginners find 8 courses confusing, and besides, the > historic 8 course lute was a somewhat short lived version on the > end-of-the-Renaissance lute's march to the 10 course version & beyond. When > you achieve left hand mastery, switching out the low F to a low D will make > for a 7th course that is more accessible anyway, (and a very widespread > historic set-up) and not having to jump over a low F. Some players will > reverse the 2 courses on an 8 course lute for this purpose. > > But, again, for many of us, the 8 course lute just solves more problems than > it creates. If I had my druthers and more money, space, and time than I > deserve I would own both 7 course and 9 course lutes (miss that low C in > some favorite Holborne & R. Johnson pieces) for covering just the late > Renaissance, Elizabethan/post Elizabethan repertoire. > > Good luck with this one. We have dealt with this one before on the list. > > Dan > On May 2, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: > >> Dear lute-listers, >> >> A question from a beginner: >> >> First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute >> for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am >> really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I >> am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. >> After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses >> to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my >> needs. So onto to my question: >> >> I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on >> my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and >> if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I >> assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it >> would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung >> with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to >> change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton >> remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it >> will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise >> I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, >> besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an >> 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that >> it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... >> >> Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Joshua >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Info of the Add. MS. 15117, British Museum?
On 2 May 2012 21:13, Arto Wikla wrote: > I happened to find one page of the Add. MS. 15117, British Museum, among my > That page was the "Willow Song" as a lute song with handwritten tabulature. Years and years ago that page was on display in the British Museum when I visited. Next to handwritten pages of song texts by the Beatles. Needless to say, I was in awe of both (it's all early music after all) and took pictures. I remember the Willow Song as a single page, btw. Daid -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Info of the Add. MS. 15117, British Museum?
Dear lutenists, I happened to find one page of the Add. MS. 15117, British Museum, among my files - actually in an unexpected folder containing computer science... That page was the "Willow Song" as a lute song with handwritten tabulature. Not bad. Does anyone here happen know more of that ms.? Contents? Size? A pdf would be wonderful!! :-) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Aha, thanks, Ed. Plan your tension in between and split the tension difference. Makes sense to me. Converting it to something else entirely? Sigh. Ok, just kidding. (And yes, I know it's the most athentic way to build a baroque lute) s On May 2, 2012, at 11:05 AM, Edward Martin wrote: Hi Sean, Actually, I do not have a 7-course lute at the moment, I use an 8-course for renaissance lute, as for the reasons cited. i did have a 7-course, which was converted to an 11-course, Frei. When I used it as a 7-course lute, I essentially had it strung with a string in-between the 2 tones... it was low tension for the D, high tension with the F. Using gimped strings on that, it worked OK, but i really like the 8 course, as one has access to both. English music seems to favor the D, where continental music seems to favor the F. ed At 12:52 PM 5/2/2012, Sean Smith wrote: If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, which in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and play 10 course music... Very true, Bruno, I loved exploring the Vallet and Ballard books for years on my 8c, turning singers on to Airs de cours and knowing that nearly all the English was, at least, doable w/out retuning something. That said, I've seen some lovely 7c instruments and they sound better for resisting the extra course. Ed Martin's, for example, as well as Jacob Herringman's 7c Gerle. The latter is interesting in that it retains the earlier parabolic neck which, I think, would not support 8 courses. If that is your route you're well set up to go to the 6c. Ed, I believe you have a gut bass w/ a metal filament on the 7th course on that instrument. Could you weigh in on how it does re: Joshua's question? I'm curious myself. Dalza expected lutes to accept a one-step scordatura and in one 'suite' on the 5th course also. Could the extra half step really be too much? But truthfully, Joshua, a 7c is a fine place to start and I applaud your resolution. You'll work out the D/F situation one way or another. Sean A A Bruno On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re- string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [6]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.estavel.org/ Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Joshua, There's a lifetime's worth of music in 16th century. If you put on one more course to accomodate Dowland more power to you. Me? I guess I've been shedding courses over my years at it having discovered the renaissance guitar lately. (Mrs Smith, who doesn't share our love of nuance, would prefer I simply shed lutes.) Except for the guitar everything I pick up now has 6 courses. The variety in size while keeping the same rigging is curiously reassuring and does wonders for my hand work. I don't have to deal with the thumb in/out question, either. Yay! It's an interesting concept that as lute time moved forward they added more courses to get the music they wanted but the composers/ intabulators previous were no less ingenious in getting more out of less --and called on their players to reflect as much diversity. You'll find that your talents are no less taxed! It's fascinating to see what you can bring back to the lute in your chosen period by moving laterally around a particular year rather than moving forward and backward in time. Personally, I have a hard time of jumping around in time periods. There are so many here on this list that do that much better. I've seen some folks that like to give a concert that goes from 1500 to 1700. Some prefer a snapshot of a particular period or even one book. To each his own said the farmer as he kissed the cow. Sean On May 2, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: Dear Bruno, Well, I didn't really want to start a 7C vs 8c debate, since I get the impression this fairly well-trodden ground for you guys on this list. I have considered an 8-course, in fact it was my initial plan, and can see the attractiveness of its flexibility. But I really feel most attracted to the 16th century repertoire, and it seems to me a 7- course is the best fit to explore it, that is, all the (vast and wonderful) 6-course stuff to Dowland and his contemporaries. I realize that I'll perhaps miss out on some good later stuff, but it's not like I can never ever buy another lute for the rest of my life! I am just getting started, and the 16th century boasts enough great music to repay several lifetimes of study, and I think will satisfy me for some years to come while I learn the instrument. Then perhaps in 5 years or so, when I've advanced to respectable level and will have had plenty of time to expand my tastes, meet other players, try other instruments, etc. I can always in! vest in another instrument if I want to expand my repertoire. If I'm planning to spend time 1) in Dowland's era, and then 2) much more time in the era before Dowland than in the one after him, the trade-offs between 7 and 8 courses seem to come down in favor of 7. At least for me. I appreciate your advice nonetheless, and indeed I'm in general very impressed in general with how welcoming and kind everyone in the lute world has been to me so far. All the best, Joshua On May 2, 2012, at 6:49 PM, Bruno Fournier wrote: Hello A If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, which in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and play 10 course music...A A Bruno On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Thanks Alan, the plucking close the bridge seems like good tip indeed. As for a 6-, 7-, and 10-course lute being the perfect set up for the renassaince, why, I'm already a third of the way there! As long as I don't get interested in baroque or continuo playing! On May 2, 2012, at 19:59, Alan Hoyle wrote: > 6-, 7-, and 10-course lute To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Hi Ed, On your 8-course do you have the D on the 7th or 8th course? Miles On 2012-05-02, at 2:05 PM, Edward Martin wrote: > Hi Sean, > > Actually, I do not have a 7-course lute at the moment, I use an > 8-course for renaissance lute, as for the reasons cited. i did have > a 7-course, which was converted to an 11-course, Frei. When I used > it as a 7-course lute, I essentially had it strung with a string > in-between the 2 tones... it was low tension for the D, high tension > with the F. Using gimped strings on that, it worked OK, but i really > like the 8 course, as one has access to both. > > English music seems to favor the D, where continental music seems to > favor the F. > > ed > > > > > > > At 12:52 PM 5/2/2012, Sean Smith wrote: > >> If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, >> which >> in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and >> play >> 10 course music... >> >> Very true, Bruno, I loved exploring the Vallet and Ballard books for >> years on my 8c, turning singers on to Airs de cours and knowing that >> nearly all the English was, at least, doable w/out retuning something. >> >> That said, I've seen some lovely 7c instruments and they sound better >> for resisting the extra course. Ed Martin's, for example, as well as >> Jacob Herringman's 7c Gerle. The latter is interesting in that it >> retains the earlier parabolic neck which, I think, would not support 8 >> courses. If that is your route you're well set up to go to the 6c. >> >> Ed, I believe you have a gut bass w/ a metal filament on the 7th >> course on that instrument. Could you weigh in on how it does re: >> Joshua's question? I'm curious myself. >> >> Dalza expected lutes to accept a one-step scordatura and in one >> 'suite' on the 5th course also. Could the extra half step really be >> too much? >> >> But truthfully, Joshua, a 7c is a fine place to start and I applaud >> your resolution. You'll work out the D/F situation one way or another. >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> >> A >> >> A >> >> Bruno >> >> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> >> wrote: >> >>It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit >>your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty >>ubiquitous today. >>Best, >>Eugene >> >> -Original Message- >> From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >> [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder >> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM >> To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c >> Dear lute-listers, >> A question from a beginner: >> First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing >> the >> lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple >> weeks >> and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental >> 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and >> buying a >> lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the >> best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion >> that >> a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: >> I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, >> but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is >> stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and >> flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which >> I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise >> it to >> F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses >> are >> metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same >> string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her >> tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be >> possible to >> raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re- string? >> Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just >> keeping >> it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course >> lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that >> it >> will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... >> Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. >> Best wishes, >> Joshua >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> A >> >> Bruno Cognyl-Fournier >> >> A >> >> [6]www.estavel.org >> >> A >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu >> 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 6. http://www.estavel.org/ >> >> > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com > voice: (218) 728-1202 > http://www.facebook.com/p
[LUTE-BUILDER] Why no mahogany?
Dear Collective Wisdom, I see that mahogany is never recommended as a lute building material (except perhaps for neck blocks). I wonder why this should be? Are there no surviving old lutes that used it? I do know that the Jacquemart-Andree vihuela is now believed to have dark mahogany pieces in its 'jigsaw' ribs. Cuban mahogany is not unusual in guitars. Mahogany is stable, can be beautiful if it comes from the Carribean or Central America, is easy to work . . . So why isn't it being used now and again for lute ribs? Just curious. Bill Samson -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Hi Sean, Actually, I do not have a 7-course lute at the moment, I use an 8-course for renaissance lute, as for the reasons cited. i did have a 7-course, which was converted to an 11-course, Frei. When I used it as a 7-course lute, I essentially had it strung with a string in-between the 2 tones... it was low tension for the D, high tension with the F. Using gimped strings on that, it worked OK, but i really like the 8 course, as one has access to both. English music seems to favor the D, where continental music seems to favor the F. ed At 12:52 PM 5/2/2012, Sean Smith wrote: > If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, >which > in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and >play > 10 course music... > >Very true, Bruno, I loved exploring the Vallet and Ballard books for >years on my 8c, turning singers on to Airs de cours and knowing that >nearly all the English was, at least, doable w/out retuning something. > >That said, I've seen some lovely 7c instruments and they sound better >for resisting the extra course. Ed Martin's, for example, as well as >Jacob Herringman's 7c Gerle. The latter is interesting in that it >retains the earlier parabolic neck which, I think, would not support 8 >courses. If that is your route you're well set up to go to the 6c. > >Ed, I believe you have a gut bass w/ a metal filament on the 7th >course on that instrument. Could you weigh in on how it does re: >Joshua's question? I'm curious myself. > >Dalza expected lutes to accept a one-step scordatura and in one >'suite' on the 5th course also. Could the extra half step really be >too much? > >But truthfully, Joshua, a 7c is a fine place to start and I applaud >your resolution. You'll work out the D/F situation one way or another. > >Sean > > > > > >A > > A > > Bruno > > On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> > wrote: > > It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit > your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty > ubiquitous today. > Best, > Eugene > > -Original Message- > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM > To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c > Dear lute-listers, > A question from a beginner: > First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing >the > lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple >weeks > and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental > 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and >buying a > lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the > best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion >that > a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: > I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, > but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is > stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and > flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which > I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise >it to > F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses >are > metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same > string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her > tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be >possible to > raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re- string? > Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just >keeping > it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course > lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that >it > will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... > Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. > Best wishes, > Joshua > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > A > > Bruno Cognyl-Fournier > > A > > [6]www.estavel.org > > A > > -- > >References > > 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. http://www.estavel.org/ > > Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, which in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and play 10 course music... Very true, Bruno, I loved exploring the Vallet and Ballard books for years on my 8c, turning singers on to Airs de cours and knowing that nearly all the English was, at least, doable w/out retuning something. That said, I've seen some lovely 7c instruments and they sound better for resisting the extra course. Ed Martin's, for example, as well as Jacob Herringman's 7c Gerle. The latter is interesting in that it retains the earlier parabolic neck which, I think, would not support 8 courses. If that is your route you're well set up to go to the 6c. Ed, I believe you have a gut bass w/ a metal filament on the 7th course on that instrument. Could you weigh in on how it does re: Joshua's question? I'm curious myself. Dalza expected lutes to accept a one-step scordatura and in one 'suite' on the 5th course also. Could the extra half step really be too much? But truthfully, Joshua, a 7c is a fine place to start and I applaud your resolution. You'll work out the D/F situation one way or another. Sean A A Bruno On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re- string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [6]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.estavel.org/
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Hi Joshua, I have 6 and 9 course orpharions and find that almost all mainstream renaissance music works on the 6 course. There are some pieces where you need to move low Ds and Fs up an octave, but after a while you do this automatically. Where the 6 course is limited is the few pieces where the low D of a 7 course piece has fretted notes.I have run into very few fretted notes on a low F course (sometimes the 1st fret and sometimes the 3rd) and these notes can often be moved up an octave. It's similar on music that I play on my 9 course. Even when the bass notes run step-wise up or down, I can still move the low C up an octave. Or in a few cases the basses required are C E (or E flat) and F. There are a few pieces that really do need all 10 courses, and some where they retuned the low C to B flat. Nancy I do come to the lute from the guitar, though with a hiatus of 6 or 7 years in between, so I am not finding the learning curve too steep, even though I was not a particularly accomplished guitar player. Fortunately I'm a freelancer who works from home and so have a lot of time to practice, I've been averaging a couple hours or so a day (great for my playing, not so much for my work). I did find the 8-course I played a little awkward, but I only played it for briefly so didn't have much of a chance to get used to it. But I as I have been exploring the entire lute repertoire through CDs, I have really fallen in love with the early Renaissance music, as well as Dowland and some of the Elizabethan stuff which was what had first attracted me to the lute. A 7 course seems like a good compromise to play all this (I considered also and 8c or even a 6c to start, but perhaps it's best to split the difference and go with 7?). Besides, I'm only 28 and hope to have many lute-playing year! s ahead of me, and it seems I am already quite infected with this malady, so to speak, so I'm sure this won't be the last lute I buy. Best, Joshua On May 2, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: > Your post explains why the 8 course lute was developed, or as I like to call it, the "Double 7" . I have never found a string material of any sort that would stand up to a scordatura range exceeding a whole tone. Even going for a compromise tension (say an ideal E/E-flat) would still be unsatisfactory for me, but you could try tweaking that one. Some strange remedies to this conundrum have been attempted- including a mechanical kind of hook through the neck to pull down the low D at the 3rd fret. Only on some old, heavily built compromise lutes. > > As a beginner, I would suggest having a 7th course dedicated to F. Unless you come to the lute with say, an advanced guitar left hand it will take a considerable amount of time & practice before you are able to fluently finger a 7th course- much 6 course music is already as difficult as it gets in lute land anyway. Many beginners find 8 courses confusing, and besides, the historic 8 course lute was a somewhat short lived version on the end-of-the-Renaissance lute's march to the 10 course version & beyond. When you achieve left hand mastery, switching out the low F to a low D will make for a 7th course that is more accessible anyway, (and a very widespread historic set-up) and not having to jump over a low F. Some players will reverse the 2 courses on an 8 course lute for this purpose. > > But, again, for many of us, the 8 course lute just solves more problems than it creates. If I had my druthers and more money, space, and time than I deserve I would own both 7 course and 9 course lutes (miss that low C in some favorite Holborne & R. Johnson pieces) for covering just the late Renaissance, Elizabethan/post Elizabethan repertoire. > > Good luck with this one. We have dealt with this one before on the list. > > Dan > On May 2, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: > >> Dear lute-listers, >> >> A question from a beginner: >> >> First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: >> >> I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Dear Bruno, Well, I didn't really want to start a 7C vs 8c debate, since I get the impression this fairly well-trodden ground for you guys on this list. I have considered an 8-course, in fact it was my initial plan, and can see the attractiveness of its flexibility. But I really feel most attracted to the 16th century repertoire, and it seems to me a 7-course is the best fit to explore it, that is, all the (vast and wonderful) 6-course stuff to Dowland and his contemporaries. I realize that I'll perhaps miss out on some good later stuff, but it's not like I can never ever buy another lute for the rest of my life! I am just getting started, and the 16th century boasts enough great music to repay several lifetimes of study, and I think will satisfy me for some years to come while I learn the instrument. Then perhaps in 5 years or so, when I've advanced to respectable level and will have had plenty of time to expand my tastes, meet other players, try other instruments, etc. I can always in! vest in another instrument if I want to expand my repertoire. If I'm planning to spend time 1) in Dowland's era, and then 2) much more time in the era before Dowland than in the one after him, the trade-offs between 7 and 8 courses seem to come down in favor of 7. At least for me. I appreciate your advice nonetheless, and indeed I'm in general very impressed in general with how welcoming and kind everyone in the lute world has been to me so far. All the best, Joshua On May 2, 2012, at 6:49 PM, Bruno Fournier wrote: > Hello > > A > > If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, which > in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and play > 10 course music...A > > A > > Bruno > > On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> > wrote: > > It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit > your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty > ubiquitous today. > Best, > Eugene > > -Original Message- > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM > To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c > Dear lute-listers, > A question from a beginner: > First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the > lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks > and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental > 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a > lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the > best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that > a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: > I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, > but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is > stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and > flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which > I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to > F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are > metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same > string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her > tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to > raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re-string? > Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping > it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course > lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it > will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... > Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. > Best wishes, > Joshua > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > A > > Bruno Cognyl-Fournier > > A > > [6]www.estavel.org > > A > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu > 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 6. http://www.estavel.org/ >
[LUTE] Nylgut Oud strings
Hi, A I'm interested in trying out Mimmo's Nylgut Oud strings on my Moroccan Oud.A Anyone has experience with them? I note that like all Oud string sets, the 3 rd string is wound.A I personally prefer a non-wound string on the 3rd course.A I currently use gut on my first 3 courses, any recommendation for Nylgut? A thx -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [1]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. http://www.estavel.org/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Hello A If you haven't yet ordered a lute, I would consider an 8 course, which in my opinion is more versatile.A It even allows you to cheat and play 10 course music...A A Bruno On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Braig, Eugene <[1]brai...@osu.edu> wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. A While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [6]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. mailto:brai...@osu.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.estavel.org/
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
And what about 8c lute with reentrant tuning in basses? 7th course=D and 8th course=F 2012/5/2 Arto Wikla <[1]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi> Dear Joshua, welcome to the gang! I think you can make the same 7th work in F and D. My example: 7-course Venere, 58 cm, the 7th course: Aquila's new nylgut octave 94 NNG Aquila's type D string 195 D The tensions are (a'D0Hz) in F 3.657 Kg / 3.935 Kg in D 2.586 Kg / 2.782 Kg F is quite tight, but works. Did you know, you can make the string calculations in my page [2]http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/ And you can see and hear my new Venere in [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5lzPnVZl_o&feature=youtu.be Again: Welcome! Arto On 02/05/12 19:06, Joshua Burkholder wrote: Eugene, Well I have considered (and tried) an 8-course, and understand their advantages, but the music I'm most interested in is mostly 6 and 7 course, and so I feel like I don't really need the extra course. In any case, let's leave aside my choice of lute for the moment (though your advice is certainly welcome), because I'm quite curious to know whether it's practicable to retune the 7th course without re-stringing. (Perhaps I've overstated things a bit anyways, my question is more of a curiosity than a dilemma: I actually think a a 7th course in D and fingering the third fret will work fine for me in the majority of stuff I want to play, at least going by what I've seen so far). It's just that I often see mentioned in descriptions of 7-course lutes something to the effect of the player having to tune to either D or F according to the piece one wants to play, but in my (admittedly very limited) practical experience this doesn't seem very feasible without changing the string. So ! I'! m just wondering whether perhaps I am not missing something? Joshua On May 2, 2012, at 5:48 PM, Braig, Eugene wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 2. http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/ 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5lzPnVZl_o&feature=youtu.be 4. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Dear Joshua, welcome to the gang! I think you can make the same 7th work in F and D. My example: 7-course Venere, 58 cm, the 7th course: Aquila's new nylgut octave 94 NNG Aquila's type D string 195 D The tensions are (a'=440Hz) in F 3.657 Kg / 3.935 Kg in D 2.586 Kg / 2.782 Kg F is quite tight, but works. Did you know, you can make the string calculations in my page http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/NewScalc/ And you can see and hear my new Venere in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5lzPnVZl_o&feature=youtu.be Again: Welcome! Arto On 02/05/12 19:06, Joshua Burkholder wrote: Eugene, Well I have considered (and tried) an 8-course, and understand their advantages, but the music I'm most interested in is mostly 6 and 7 course, and so I feel like I don't really need the extra course. In any case, let's leave aside my choice of lute for the moment (though your advice is certainly welcome), because I'm quite curious to know whether it's practicable to retune the 7th course without re-stringing. (Perhaps I've overstated things a bit anyways, my question is more of a curiosity than a dilemma: I actually think a a 7th course in D and fingering the third fret will work fine for me in the majority of stuff I want to play, at least going by what I've seen so far). It's just that I often see mentioned in descriptions of 7-course lutes something to the effect of the player having to tune to either D or F according to the piece one wants to play, but in my (admittedly very limited) practical experience this doesn't seem very feasible without changing the string. So ! I'! m just wondering whether perhaps I am not missing something? Joshua On May 2, 2012, at 5:48 PM, Braig, Eugene wrote: It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Thanks Daniel, I do come to the lute from the guitar, though with a hiatus of 6 or 7 years in between, so I am not finding the learning curve too steep, even though I was not a particularly accomplished guitar player. Fortunately I'm a freelancer who works from home and so have a lot of time to practice, I've been averaging a couple hours or so a day (great for my playing, not so much for my work). I did find the 8-course I played a little awkward, but I only played it for briefly so didn't have much of a chance to get used to it. But I as I have been exploring the entire lute repertoire through CDs, I have really fallen in love with the early Renaissance music, as well as Dowland and some of the Elizabethan stuff which was what had first attracted me to the lute. A 7 course seems like a good compromise to play all this (I considered also and 8c or even a 6c to start, but perhaps it's best to split the difference and go with 7?). Besides, I'm only 28 and hope to have many lute-playing year! s ahead of me, and it seems I am already quite infected with this malady, so to speak, so I'm sure this won't be the last lute I buy. Best, Joshua On May 2, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: > Your post explains why the 8 course lute was developed, or as I like to call > it, the "Double 7" . I have never found a string material of any sort that > would stand up to a scordatura range exceeding a whole tone. Even going for a > compromise tension (say an ideal E/E-flat) would still be unsatisfactory for > me, but you could try tweaking that one. Some strange remedies to this > conundrum have been attempted- including a mechanical kind of hook through > the neck to pull down the low D at the 3rd fret. Only on some old, heavily > built compromise lutes. > > As a beginner, I would suggest having a 7th course dedicated to F. Unless you > come to the lute with say, an advanced guitar left hand it will take a > considerable amount of time & practice before you are able to fluently finger > a 7th course- much 6 course music is already as difficult as it gets in lute > land anyway. Many beginners find 8 courses confusing, and besides, the > historic 8 course lute was a somewhat short lived version on the > end-of-the-Renaissance lute's march to the 10 course version & beyond. When > you achieve left hand mastery, switching out the low F to a low D will make > for a 7th course that is more accessible anyway, (and a very widespread > historic set-up) and not having to jump over a low F. Some players will > reverse the 2 courses on an 8 course lute for this purpose. > > But, again, for many of us, the 8 course lute just solves more problems than > it creates. If I had my druthers and more money, space, and time than I > deserve I would own both 7 course and 9 course lutes (miss that low C in > some favorite Holborne & R. Johnson pieces) for covering just the late > Renaissance, Elizabethan/post Elizabethan repertoire. > > Good luck with this one. We have dealt with this one before on the list. > > Dan > On May 2, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: > >> Dear lute-listers, >> >> A question from a beginner: >> >> First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute >> for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am >> really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I >> am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. >> After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses >> to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my >> needs. So onto to my question: >> >> I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on >> my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and >> if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I >> assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it >> would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung >> with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to >> change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton >> remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it >> will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise >> I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, >> besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an >> 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that >> it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... >> >> Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> Joshua >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Eugene, Well I have considered (and tried) an 8-course, and understand their advantages, but the music I'm most interested in is mostly 6 and 7 course, and so I feel like I don't really need the extra course. In any case, let's leave aside my choice of lute for the moment (though your advice is certainly welcome), because I'm quite curious to know whether it's practicable to retune the 7th course without re-stringing. (Perhaps I've overstated things a bit anyways, my question is more of a curiosity than a dilemma: I actually think a a 7th course in D and fingering the third fret will work fine for me in the majority of stuff I want to play, at least going by what I've seen so far). It's just that I often see mentioned in descriptions of 7-course lutes something to the effect of the player having to tune to either D or F according to the piece one wants to play, but in my (admittedly very limited) practical experience this doesn't seem very feasible without changing the string. So I'! m just wondering whether perhaps I am not missing something? Joshua On May 2, 2012, at 5:48 PM, Braig, Eugene wrote: > It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your > needs. While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. > > Best, > Eugene > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of Joshua Burkholder > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c > > Dear lute-listers, > > A question from a beginner: > > First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute > for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am > really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am > now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After > much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to > start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. > So onto to my question: > > I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on > my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if > I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume > that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would > likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with > Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change > from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to > this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only > be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to > re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just > keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course > lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will > be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... > > Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. > > Best wishes, > > Joshua > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Your post explains why the 8 course lute was developed, or as I like to call it, the "Double 7" . I have never found a string material of any sort that would stand up to a scordatura range exceeding a whole tone. Even going for a compromise tension (say an ideal E/E-flat) would still be unsatisfactory for me, but you could try tweaking that one. Some strange remedies to this conundrum have been attempted- including a mechanical kind of hook through the neck to pull down the low D at the 3rd fret. Only on some old, heavily built compromise lutes. As a beginner, I would suggest having a 7th course dedicated to F. Unless you come to the lute with say, an advanced guitar left hand it will take a considerable amount of time & practice before you are able to fluently finger a 7th course- much 6 course music is already as difficult as it gets in lute land anyway. Many beginners find 8 courses confusing, and besides, the historic 8 course lute was a somewhat short lived version on the end-of-the-Renaissance lute's march to the 10 course version & beyond. When you achieve left hand mastery, switching out the low F to a low D will make for a 7th course that is more accessible anyway, (and a very widespread historic set-up) and not having to jump over a low F. Some players will reverse the 2 courses on an 8 course lute for this purpose. But, again, for many of us, the 8 course lute just solves more problems than it creates. If I had my druthers and more money, space, and time than I deserve I would own both 7 course and 9 course lutes (miss that low C in some favorite Holborne & R. Johnson pieces) for covering just the late Renaissance, Elizabethan/post Elizabethan repertoire. Good luck with this one. We have dealt with this one before on the list. Dan On May 2, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Joshua Burkholder wrote: > Dear lute-listers, > > A question from a beginner: > > First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute > for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am > really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am > now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After > much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to > start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. > So onto to my question: > > I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on > my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if > I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume > that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would > likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with > Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change > from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to > this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only > be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to > re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just > keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course > lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will > be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... > > Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. > > Best wishes, > > Joshua > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
It's beginning to sound like an 8-course might actually better suit your needs. While short lived in period, they seem pretty ubiquitous today. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Joshua Burkholder Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 11:40 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re-tuning the diapason of a 7c
Dear lute-listers, A question from a beginner: First to introduce myself, my name is Joshua and I've been playing the lute for several months now; I have been on the list for a couple weeks and am really enjoying following your discussions. I have a rental 7-course and I am now in the process of taking the plunge and buying a lute of my own. After much reading, pondering and agonizing over the best number of courses to start with, I've come to the conclusion that a 7-course best suits my needs. So onto to my question: I know that some people re-tune the 7th course from D to F as needed, but on my rental lute this seems quite impossible. The diapason is stung to F and if I drop it down to D it becomes far too wobbly and flabby. From this I assume that if I were to restring it to D, which I'd prefer on the whole, it would likewise be impossible to raise it to F. Currently the lute is strung with Pyramid strings so the basses are metal wound. Is it only possible to change from D to F on the same string if one uses gut strings (Poulton remarks to this effect in her tutor that if it's strung to be tuned at D "it will only be possible to raise it to F if gut strings are used")? Otherwise I have to re-string? Or does someone use some other stringing solution, besides just keeping it D and fingering the third fret for F (or buying an 8-course lute...)? I've read enough about stringing lutes to understand that it will be a while before I understand anything about stringing lutes... Thank you for taking the time to help out a newcomer. Best wishes, Joshua To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Fw: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Moth is Blessed
Hi Roman, I'm confused. Are you saying that the gamba parts are subordinate to the organ, that the gamba is accompanying the organ and not the other way around. Gary - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" To: ; "Gary Digman" Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Moth is Blessed The 3 gamba sonatas are actually organ trios with one part assigned to gamba. RT - Original Message - From: "Gary Digman" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 4:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Bach’s Lute Suites: This Moth is Blessed So were JSB's three gamba sonatas originally intended for trumpet? Gary - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" To: "howard posner" ; "lute net" Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:34 AM Subject: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Moth is Blessed JSB didn't play gamba either as evidenced by his reassignment of nicely playable lute part in the MatthäusPassion to an impossible one for gamba in the 2nd version. Any gambist would tell you that that "gamba" part is pure hell. RT From: "howard posner" Needless to say, I regard these trumpet parts as proof that Purcell didn't intend that Bach's orchestral suites be played on the lute. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2410.1.1/4966 - Release Date: 04/28/12 23:34:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.930 / Virus Database: 2410.1.1/4972 - Release Date: 05/01/12 11:36:00
