[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness (but re guitar exams)
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Stephen Kenyon s...@jacaranda-music.com Sent: Monday, 5 August 2013, 7:12 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness (but re guitar exams) Dear Stephen Kenyon, Whilst I can see, and agree, with much of your position, attributing to pianists generally a level of 'musical stature' is undeserved. Clearly many may know bits of the keyboard repertoire from, say, 1800 onwards reasonably well but I wonder how many can realise a decent basso continuo accompaniment on sight, or improvise suitable and stylish divisions, or read a score with unusual (for these modern times) clefs.. And I very much doubt your assertion that the most skilled guitarists play the keyboard too! Martyn Hodgson __ From: Stephen Kenyon s...@jacaranda-music.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com; Mark Seifert seifertm...@att.net; gary magg...@sonic.net; lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2013, 13:16 Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness (but re guitar exams) I just think its about the practicality of deliverying literally umpteen thousands of exams three times a year in short bursts in a tight and competative timetable. The examiner is appointed after a quite intensive application and training process, and they are tightly moderated for their first exam periods, and continue to be over their examining career. What the system is looking for is a person who can deliver an exam over the whole range. The system has not arbitrarily decided that players of one kind of instrument are not acceptable to exam players of another kind of instrument. Moreover I would be very surprised to find a guitar player of the kind of musical stature associated with an examiner, who had not at least dabbled a bit with piano, certainly they would I think have an extensive experience of hearing it played, including following scores and understanding the mechanics and performance issues. That though would not make them useful as examiners because they would not from that be able to perform the aural tests adequately. As I find each time I try knock out a few notes on piano in a lesson, its not to helpful the 'candidate' (student preparing for exam in this case) if you fumble and mess up. (I use the CDs with the aural tests books mostly). And while numbers of players of each instrument may be statistically listed somewhere I don't know about, I would assert that at least as far as UK is concerned, the sheer numbers of guitar players with proper musical educations, able to play at least one other instrument competently, is seriously dwarfed by most of the other instrument groups. This is my observation among teaching and playing colleagues. I would very much like to see a large increase in the numbers of guitar players employed as examiners. It may partly be that most of us are employed in teaching positions and cannot get time off for 6 weeks a term to go examining. Stephen On 4 Aug 2013, at 12:49, William Samson wrote: ' - and obviously also very good pianists - '. Why 'obviously'? I think this is getting close to the point I am trying to make. I might accept that 'never' is a bit strong, but I was in fact referring to guitarists with no experience of piano ( - Some very fine guitarists do fit this description). Would 'at least some training in the quirks of' the piano make such a person acceptable? I accept that the great majority of instruments examined are orchestral along with piano. I am sure, however, that there are at least as many guitarists around in the general population as there are players of any of these other instruments. I wonder why so few of them become part of a system where they work their way through the grades? Bill From: Stephen Kenyon [1]s...@jacaranda-music.com To: William Samson [2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Christopher Wilke [3]chriswi...@yahoo.com; Mark Seifert [4]seifertm...@att.net; gary [5]magg...@sonic.net; lutelist [6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 4 August 2013, 12:12 Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness (but re guitar exams) Bill, that's not an entirely complete assessment of this situation in my view. The pianist is expected to assess all other instruments, not just guitars, and one important reason for it is that part of the exam assessment consists of aural test which have to be played competently on a piano, including up to the grade 8 tests which are of course quite complex. They do get at
[LUTE] 2 Dowland programmes on BBC this week
O'Dette Dowland's grand tour http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037t48y Heringman / Kirkby Dowland songs http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037tvrl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] English translation of Crecquillon song
Hello Does anyone have a translation for 'Quand me souvient de ma tristresse'? I have a singer's grasp of its meaning - and it's not good enough to grace a programme! Many thanks Helen -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: home recording
Dear David and Stephen, thank you very much for the information. Rafael __ De: Stephen Kenyon s...@jacaranda-music.com Para: Rafael Munoz Rodriguez rafalu...@yahoo.es CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Enviado: Domingo 4 de agosto de 2013 16:41 Asunto: [LUTE] Re: home recording Also consider Sontronics and sE small diaphragm mics. Stephen On 4 Aug 2013, at 14:48, Rafael Munoz Rodriguez wrote: Dear friends, I would like to buy a matched pair of microphones to make some home recordings with the following instruments: theorbo, archlute, Baroque lute, Renaissance lute, vihuela and Baroque guitar. The mikes would work with a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2. For the price I would like to pay I have been told that the best options could be a pair of Rode NT5 or Oktava MK-012. I have listen to some guitar sound samples and I find the Rode more brilliant and dynamic, but it cuts a bit the low range frequencies. The Oktava gives a more natural and woody sound, but I find it a bit dark with a strong presence of mid-range frequencies. Does anyone have recording experience with these specific models? Other suggestions are also welcome. Maybe there is a model wich is particularly good at recording early music plucked strings instruments. Thanks in advance. Best wishes, Rafael Munoz -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
Back to the original premise: The problem is lack of support - if not outright hostility - from the mainstream classical music establishment. While my perception of what I and other early music performers do is that we play classical music, many, many official classical musicians do not share this view. I have run into this dilemma trying to program early music as a board member for a small-town local non-profit that presents a series of classical music concerts. The attitude of violinists, etc. who prefer Brahms seems to be one of disdain for EM. While concert attendance in our community is totally unpredictable, these board members are all too ready to point to lutes as an example of low numbers, even though there have been lower numbers for 19th and 20th century concerts. ( ... never mind the blizzard or sub-zero temperatures that probably had an impact! ) Some on this board have even put forth the notion that duos don't draw audience, but trios or more will. There is absolutely no hard data to support this, but they believe it anyway, even though one of their pet performers (that happens to play a lot of Brahms) consistently draws well and is - a duo! Absurd, and one reason that I stepped down from that board. How can the early music community begin to change these perceptions? Tom Draughon Heartistry Music www.heartistry.com Chris Wilke wrote: In America, I haven't found any lack of interest in lute or early music from the broader public. Many people who are intimidated by perceived ritual and stuffy atmosphere of standard classical concerts are drawn in by the look and sound of early instruments. Some marketers have recognized this: early music is quite well represented in classical music station playlists. (I've just been invited to give a one hour interview/lute performance on our local public radio station here in Rochester, for example.) My own solo concerts and performances by the student early music ensembles I've directed have drawn healthy crowds. This is good, but there are larger issues. The problem is lack of support - if not outright hostility - from the mainstream classical music establishment. While my perception of what I and other early music performers do is that we play classical music, many, many official classical musicians do not share this view. Indeed, at colleges where I was employed, significant public response was ultimately detrimental as it drew the flagrant ire of at least two tenured professors with great influence in the departments. Both of these professors actively petitioned against having any early music performance activities at their respective colleges, ostensibly on the grounds that it distracted students from giving full attention to the real program of instruction. (One of the professors had the gaul to tell me to my face, You're not a real ensemble because you don't play in parts. WTF? The majority of what we performed was renaissance polyphony!) I think they were afraid we were making them look bad. Concerts were not free to the public; box office receipts showed that we were bringing in actual revenue. And maybe, just maybe, my esteemed senior colleagues were jealous also of the fact that students were learning and having fun. Oh well, those professors are still there doing the same old thing and I am still struggling very much to find work years later. Good for them. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com - Original Message - From: gary magg...@sonic.net To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness I got into early music 'cause I hate crowds. My jazz performances were attracting too many people. Of course, you heard about the lutenist who won the lottery. When asked what he was going to do with his winnings, he said, I'm going to work 'til they run out. Early music, like jazz and chamber music, is a niche market. Upon being asked how one can make money in music, Henry Mancini said, If you want to make money in music, go into band uniforms. Gary On 2013-08-02 05:17, [1]erne...@aquila.mus.br wrote: I have done the same for a small baroque orchestra at the University of Sao Paulo, USP, with little gain as well. The group has a lute and a theorbo in it. Any hints are welcome. We have thought everything from flash-mobs to pairing music with food, theater, baroque dance, text, whatever... So far our biggest
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness (but re guitar exams)
Thank you for the exceptionally deep and interesting info, Howard. I haven't yet listened to or opened my Teaching Co. Goldberg course on the Beethoven Piano Concertos, so I'm reserving judgement. Didn't list Lizst because that peripatetic peacock pianist is supposedly the originator of the awful tradition known as the master class, and he was close to that creator of overblown events Wagner, whose operas are better than they sound according to Sam Clemens. I think it was Greenberg who said in his Bach course that Bach didn't like Silbermann's pianos, though he loved Silbermann's organs and harpsichords. Bach was the heaviest hitter I could think of for help in politically attacking the modern piano Goliath. Your point is well taken that those old pianos weren't like the newer ones. But I doubt the interesting archival hearsay that Bach provided his complete approval (how conveenient for piano lovers and Mr. Gould). My concern is that requiring young potential guitar or lute players to learn piano first could severely thin the ranks to the vanishing point. I think classical Guitar and lute are difficult instruments requiring for success almost total commitment, unlike many other instruments. Also, only well-to-do folks had pianos where/when I grew up--my piano playing mother gave hers up to aid the purchase of a house. It was painful and pathetic later watching her nostalgically play a toy 16?-key plastic piano provided to the kids. Are you a piano player as well as a lute enthusiast? Mark Seifert From: howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com To: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2013 9:54 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness (but re guitar exams) On Aug 4, 2013, at 5:11 AM, Mark Seifert [1]seifertm...@att.net wrote: Why the piano chauvinism in modern music? I don't like piano (except maybe Debussy, Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Hummel, Schumann, Tim Story) You might want to check out this dude named Beethoven. Bach firmly rejected the newfangled 1709 piano instruments offered to him. I cringe or become nauseated by disgust whenever 16th or 17th century singing is accompanied by a piano. Both inaccurate and irrelevant, I think. Re inaccurate, here's my recycled response to a similar comment last year: Johann Friedrich Agricola related in a 1768 treatise on keyboard instruments that Bach once tried a Silbermann pianoforte (didn't say when or where), and liked its tone but said the bass was weak and the action was too heavy. Silbermann sulked, but spent years improving the instrument, and Bach later expressed complete approval of his pianos It's on page 259 of the 1966 revised edition of the Bach Reader. The Piano (by four authors including fortepiano builders Philip Belt and Derek Adlam), on page 8, connects the complete approval that Agricola mentions with Bach's 1747 visit to Frederick the Great in Berlin, which resulted in the Musical Offering. Big Fred had a few Silbermann pianos. The Piano says they are reported [by whom? Agricola?] to have met Bach's complete approval on that occasion [which is probably speculation], and the composer served as a sales agent for Silbermann in 1749 (see C. Wolff: 'New Research on Bach's Musical Offering', MQ, lvii (1971), 403). Of course, Silbermann was famous for his organs and harpsichords, and Bach's admiration for Silbermann's organs is well documented. Re irrelevant: 1) The mid-eighteenth-century piano is about as closely related to the modern one as the renaissance lute is to the modern guitar, and 2) why would Bach's view of the piano be important now? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:seifertm...@att.net
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
On 05/08/2013 11:54 AM, t...@heartistrymusic.com wrote: The attitude of violinists, etc. who prefer Brahms seems to be one of disdain for EM. Of course, as one who prefers EM, I feel the same way about Brahms, etc. We used to have a small EM ensemble here, mostly because we enjoyed getting together to play music. Every spring for a number of years we presented a concert which was generally well received, i.e. we filled our small hall. One year it turned out that the Music Academy had a concert scheduled for the same evening, which we hadn't realized when we set the date. We still filled the hall. When our group disbanded (for various reasons) people were disappointed that we were not putting on our usual concert and kept asking about it. So there are some places where EM (and lute) draw some interest. Stephen Fryer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
Dear Tom, I play mostly solo and in duo, that's not just because I like it but above all for financial reasons. Sure, a big ensemble will appeal to more people, however, who's going to pay the bill? Some on this board have even put forth the notion that duos don't draw audience, but trios or more will. 2013/8/5 [1]t...@heartistrymusic.com Back to the original premise: The problem is lack of support - if not outright hostility - from the mainstream classical music establishment. While my perception of what I and other early music performers do is that we play classical music, many, many official classical musicians do not share this view. I have run into this dilemma trying to program early music as a board member for a small-town local non-profit that presents a series of classical music concerts. The attitude of violinists, etc. who prefer Brahms seems to be one of disdain for EM. While concert attendance in our community is totally unpredictable, these board members are all too ready to point to lutes as an example of low numbers, even though there have been lower numbers for 19th and 20th century concerts. ( ... never mind the blizzard or sub-zero temperatures that probably had an impact! ) Some on this board have even put forth the notion that duos don't draw audience, but trios or more will. There is absolutely no hard data to support this, but they believe it anyway, even though one of their pet performers (that happens to play a lot of Brahms) consistently draws well and is - a duo! Absurd, and one reason that I stepped down from that board. How can the early music community begin to change these perceptions? Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [2]www.heartistry.com Chris Wilke wrote: In America, I haven't found any lack of interest in lute or early music from the broader public. Many people who are intimidated by perceived ritual and stuffy atmosphere of standard classical concerts are drawn in by the look and sound of early instruments. Some marketers have recognized this: early music is quite well represented in classical music station playlists. (I've just been invited to give a one hour interview/lute performance on our local public radio station here in Rochester, for example.) My own solo concerts and performances by the student early music ensembles I've directed have drawn healthy crowds. This is good, but there are larger issues. The problem is lack of support - if not outright hostility - from the mainstream classical music establishment. While my perception of what I and other early music performers do is that we play classical music, many, many official classical musicians do not share this view. Indeed, at colleges where I was employed, significant public response was ultimately detrimental as it drew the flagrant ire of at least two tenured professors with great influence in the departments. Both of these professors actively petitioned against having any early music performance activities at their respective colleges, ostensibly on the grounds that it distracted students from giving full attention to the real program of instruction. (One of the professors had the gaul to tell me to my face, You're not a real ensemble because you don't play in parts. WTF? The majority of what we performed was renaissance polyphony!) I think they were afraid we were making them look bad. Concerts were not free to the public; box office receipts showed that we were bringing in actual revenue. And maybe, just maybe, my esteemed senior colleagues were jealous also of the fact that students were learning and having fun. Oh well, those professors are still there doing the same old thing and I am still struggling very much to find work years later. Good for them. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer [3]www.christopherwilke.com - Original Message - From: gary [4]magg...@sonic.net To: lutelist [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2013 4:06 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness I got into early music 'cause I hate crowds. My jazz performances were
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
Disdain for either early or later music is foolish. Duke Ellington is reputed to have said: There are only two kinds of music; good music and bad music. Playing early music on recorders and later music on the cello, I feel fortunate to have playing access to both Dufay and Dvorak. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness Dear Tom, I play mostly solo and in duo, that's not just because I like it but above all for financial reasons. Sure, a big ensemble will appeal to more people, however, who's going to pay the bill? Well said Bruno! Thanks, Tom Some on this board have even put forth the notion that duos don't draw audience, but trios or more will. 2013/8/5 [1]t...@heartistrymusic.com Back to the original premise: The problem is lack of support - if not outright hostility - from the mainstream classical music establishment. While my perception of what I and other early music performers do is that we play classical music, many, many official classical musicians do not share this view. I have run into this dilemma trying to program early music as a board member for a small-town local non-profit that presents a series of classical music concerts. The attitude of violinists, etc. who prefer Brahms seems to be one of disdain for EM. While concert attendance in our community is totally unpredictable, these board members are all too ready to point to lutes as an example of low numbers, even though there have been lower numbers for 19th and 20th century concerts. ( ... never mind the blizzard or sub-zero temperatures that probably had an impact! ) Some on this board have even put forth the notion that duos don't draw audience, but trios or more will. There is absolutely no hard data to support this, but they believe it anyway, even though one of their pet performers (that happens to play a lot of Brahms) consistently draws well and is - a duo! Absurd, and one reason that I stepped down from that board. How can the early music community begin to change these perceptions? Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [2]www.heartistry.com Chris Wilke wrote: In America, I haven't found any lack of interest in lute or early music from the broader public. Many people who are intimidated by perceived ritual and stuffy atmosphere of standard classical concerts are drawn in by the look and sound of early instruments. Some marketers have recognized this: early music is quite well represented in classical music station playlists. (I've just been invited to give a one hour interview/lute performance on our local public radio station here in Rochester, for example.) My own solo concerts and performances by the student early music ensembles I've directed have drawn healthy crowds. This is good, but there are larger issues. The problem is lack of support - if not outright hostility - from the mainstream classical music establishment. While my perception of what I and other early music performers do is that we play classical music, many, many official classical musicians do not share this view. Indeed, at colleges where I was employed, significant public response was ultimately detrimental as it drew the flagrant ire of at least two tenured professors with great influence in the departments. Both of these professors actively petitioned against having any early music performance activities at their respective colleges, ostensibly on the grounds that it distracted students from giving full attention to the real program of instruction. (One of the professors had the gaul to tell me to my face, You're not a real ensemble because you don't play in parts. WTF? The majority of what we performed was renaissance polyphony!) I think they were afraid we were making them look bad. Concerts were not free to the public; box office receipts showed that we were bringing in actual revenue. And maybe, just maybe, my
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
From: Edward Mast nedma...@aol.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness Disdain for either early or later music is foolish... I agree! I like and play many kinds of music. There have been times when I listened to something TRYING to like it, and I could not. But, I find that there is good material in most all genres. While I love Dowland, I perform mostly American traditional music. Beethoven is one of my favorites, but as I drive down the road to a bluegrass festival I might be listening to Paul Winter Consort Icarus, or the Beatles' White Album (not my fav, but it's on my SD card ... ) I also like Dvorak (I've even sung some of his art songs), and I think he, like Mendelssohn, drew much inspiration from the man Haydn referred to as the great mogul ;) In short - It's ALL good! Thanks, Tom Duke Ellington is reputed to have said: There are only two kinds of music; good music and bad music. Playing early music on recorders and later music on the cello, I feel fortunate to have playing access to both Dufay and Dvorak. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 --
