[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
This is interesting evidence, but all it proves is that the vihuela experienced a great fashion in that period, which no one really doubts. The reasons for the vihuela’s popularity will probably always remain a matter for conjecture, but the idea that it was because of “Moorish associations” doesn’t really bear closer scrutiny, as the Christian Spanish (and other Europeans too) happily incorporated many Moorish elements in many different cultural areas, from language to cuisine, which is not surprising given the refinement and sophistication of Moorish civilization in Spain. Is there any evidence anywhere of cultural elements (not people but things) being rejected explicitly for their origins? Christian theologians such as Thomas of Aquinas even liberally used Moorish theology in is work. Joshua > On 06 May 2015, at 23:53, Dan Winheld wrote: > > Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the > rather silly myth from his work, "A History of the Lute", p.221 Chapter VIII > "The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain": > > "At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in > Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument > makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called > 'violero' in the 16th." > > -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- > Can anyone corroborate, contradict? > > (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled "Lutenist" in 1999 and > "Vihuelist" in 2002). > > Dan > > > > > On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: >> Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it >> had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. >> Monica >> >> >> - Original Message - From: "Mark Seifert" >> To: "Ron Andrico" ; "Christopher Wilke" >> ; "Dan Winheld" ; "Rob >> MacKillop" ; "Howard Posner" >> ; "David Van Ooijen" >> Cc: "'Lutelist'" >> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >> >> >>> Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating >>> topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany >>> Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally >>> expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important >>> date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed >>> in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their >>> ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She >>> didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like >>> innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the >>> lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly >>> reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant >>> woman, heaven forbid. >>> In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of >>> History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades >>> before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of >>> eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of >>> all their witches wouldn't improve anything. >>> I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum >>> wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener >>> Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a >>> Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting >>> a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose >>> binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date >>> "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, >>> opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in >>> incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was >>> studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered >>> how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There >>> were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect >>> the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century >>> caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the >>> crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's >>> family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on >>> line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I >>> didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also >>> feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had >>> gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. >>> Mark Seifert >>> On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel >>> wrote: >>> Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. >>> Mathias >>> > -Original Message- >>> > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>> [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Death tolls Contemporary illustration of the auto-da-fe of [1]Valladolid, in which fourteen Protestants were burned at the stake for their faith, on May 21, 1559 Garcia Carcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000; applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560-1700--about 2%--the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, it is likely that the toll was higher, keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and Garcia Carcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that between 3,000 and 5,000 were executed.^[2][99] Modern historians have begun to study the documentary records of the Inquisition. The archives of the Suprema, today held by the [3]National Historical Archive of Spain (Archivo Historico Nacional), conserves the annual relations of all processes between 1540 and 1700. This material provides information on about 44,674 judgements, the latter studied by Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras. These 44,674 cases include 826 executions in persona and 778 in effigie. This material, however, is far from being complete--for example, the tribunal of Cuenca is entirely omitted, because no relaciones de causas from this tribunal have been found, and significant gaps concern some other tribunals (e.g. Valladolid). Many more cases not reported to the Suprema are known from the other sources (e.g. no relaciones de causas from Cuenca have been found, but its original records have been preserved), but were not included in Contreras-Henningsen's statistics for the methodological reasons.^[4][100] William Monter estimates 1000 executions between 1530 and 1630 and 250 between 1630 and 1730.^[5][101] The archives of the Suprema only provide information surrounding the processes prior to 1560. To study the processes themselves, it is necessary to examine the archives of the local tribunals; however, the majority have been lost to the devastation of war, the ravages of time or other events. [6]Jean-Pierre Dedieu has studied those of Toledo, where 12,000 were judged for offences related to heresy.^[7][102] Ricardo Garcia Carcel has analyzed those of the tribunal of Valencia.^[8][103] These authors' investigations find that the Inquisition was most active in the period between 1480 and 1530, and that during this period the percentage condemned to death was much more significant than in the years studied by Henningsen and Contreras. Henry Kamen gives the number of about 2,000 executions in persona in the whole of Spain up to 1530.^[9][104] ^ RT On 5/6/2015 5:55 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: And the Albigensian Crusade was just as brutal. The church was already honing its skills. On 5/6/2015 2:40 PM, [10]theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, "the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild" ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj -Original Message- From: r.turovsky [11] To: lute [12] Sent: Wed, May 6, 2015 5:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly r
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I'm curious how long Giordano Bruno would have lasted in Russia in the 1930's. Certainly not the 8 (!!!) years in which the Inquisition was trying to get him to recant. RT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition On 5/6/2015 5:55 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: On 5/6/2015 2:40 PM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, "the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild" ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
And the Albigensian Crusade was just as brutal. The church was already honing its skills. On 5/6/2015 2:40 PM, theoj89...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Wow, "the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild" ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj -Original Message- From: r.turovsky To: lute Sent: Wed, May 6, 2015 5:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias Roesel [1] wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > - Or
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, "A History of the Lute", p.221 Chapter VIII "The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain": "At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th." -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled "Lutenist" in 1999 and "Vihuelist" in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: "Mark Seifert" To: "Ron Andrico" ; "Christopher Wilke" ; "Dan Winheld" ; "Rob MacKillop" ; "Howard Posner" ; "David Van Ooijen" Cc: "'Lutelist'" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5]edward.y...@gmail.com> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6]l...@pantagruel.de> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "m
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Wow, "the (Spanish) Inquisition was rather mild" ? I was under the impression that it was rather brutal. Emperor Rudolf II spent his childhood with relatives in Spain and was so abhorred by the torutre and murder of non Christians that, when he was Emperor he assured religious tolerance in his realm. Are you sure you are not referring to the Monty Python version of the Spanish Inquisition (Ge the comfy chair!). trj -Original Message- From: r.turovsky To: lute Sent: Wed, May 6, 2015 5:07 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias Roesel [1] wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[6]edward.y...@gmail.com> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[7]l...@pantagruel.de> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml" <[9]man...@manololaguillo.com>; > "Lutelist" <[10]lute@cs.d
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Mark, there are a lot of misconceptions about inquisition, it was rather mild by our 20th century standards, and most suspects were let off the hook. And no one was really eliminated in Spain: 1 in 5 male Spaniards are genetically patrilineally Jewish now, and 1 in 10 are Moors. University of Leeds did a large scale DNA study a few years ago. RT On 5/6/2015 8:51 AM, Mark Seifert wrote: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias Roesel [1] wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[6]edward.y...@gmail.com> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[7]l...@pantagruel.de> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml" <[9]man...@manololaguillo.com>; > "Lutelist" <[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... > > > > > > > > tou%to ylektroniko'n taxudromei'on ek ei'Fwnou emeu% epe'mfthy. > > Hae litterae electronicae ab iPhono missae sunt. > > iPhone._ > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[11]l...@panta
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Re: Those silly costumes... When I was an altar boy back in pre-Pleistocene times I never had to wear an ruff. Those who did were proud of it but found it awfully miserable. Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 3:26 PM To: Monica Hall; Mark Seifert Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes. I thought Diana Poulton demonstrated that the lute was present in Spain throughout the 16th century in her article, The Lute in Christian Spain. Lute Society Journal 19 (1977): 34-49. I always thought the vihuela was more popular in Spain because it was more graceful to play while wearing those silly outfits. RA > Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 20:18:28 +0100 > To: seifertm...@att.net > CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it > had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Mark Seifert" > To: "Ron Andrico" ; "Christopher Wilke" > ; "Dan Winheld" ; "Rob > MacKillop" ; "Howard Posner" > ; "David Van Ooijen" > Cc: "'Lutelist'" > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating > > topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany > > Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally > > expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important > > date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed > > in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their > > ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She > > didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like > > innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the > > lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly > > reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant > > woman, heaven forbid. > > In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of > > History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades > > before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of > > eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of > > all their witches wouldn't improve anything. > > I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum > > wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener > > Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a > > Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting > > a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose > > binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date > > "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, > > opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in > > incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was > > studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered > > how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There > > were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect > > the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century > > caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the > > crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's > > family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on > > line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I > > didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also > > feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had > > gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. > > Mark Seifert > > On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel > > wrote: > > Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. > > Mathias > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > > Chris Barker > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > > > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > > > Cc: 'Lutelist' > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at > > that time I'd > > > call him a thug too! > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > [mailto:[4]lut
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I have always heard that the Spanish preferred the vihuela because it was shaped like their native guitar, and that the lute's (oud's) Moorish association was a widespread prejudice. I have read this in several treatises. That doesn't necessarily make it true though. Anybody can write anything they wish. Best, Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 2:18 PM To: Mark Seifert Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: "Mark Seifert" To: "Ron Andrico" ; "Christopher Wilke" ; "Dan Winheld" ; "Rob MacKillop" ; "Howard Posner" ; "David Van Ooijen" Cc: "'Lutelist'" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating > topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany > Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally > expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important > date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed > in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their > ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She > didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like > innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the > lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly > reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant > woman, heaven forbid. > In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of > History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades > before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of > eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of > all their witches wouldn't improve anything. > I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum > wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener > Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a > Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting > a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose > binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date > "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, > opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in > incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was > studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered > how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There > were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect > the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century > caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the > crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's > family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on > line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I > didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also > feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had > gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. > Mark Seifert > On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel >wrote: > Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. > Mathias > > -Original Message- > > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > Chris Barker > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > > Cc: 'Lutelist' > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at > that time I'd > > call him a thug too! > > > > Chris > > > > -Original Message- > > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > Monica Hall > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > > Cc: Lutelist > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the > Taliban in > > Afghanistan. > > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural > heritage. > > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > > Monica > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5]edward.y...@gmail.com> > > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6]l...@pantagruel.de> > > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml" > <[8]man...@mano
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Yes. I thought Diana Poulton demonstrated that the lute was present in Spain throughout the 16th century in her article, The Lute in Christian Spain. Lute Society Journal 19 (1977): 34-49. I always thought the vihuela was more popular in Spain because it was more graceful to play while wearing those silly outfits. RA > Date: Wed, 6 May 2015 20:18:28 +0100 > To: seifertm...@att.net > CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it > had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Mark Seifert" > To: "Ron Andrico" ; "Christopher Wilke" > ; "Dan Winheld" ; "Rob > MacKillop" ; "Howard Posner" > ; "David Van Ooijen" > Cc: "'Lutelist'" > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating > > topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany > > Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally > > expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important > > date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed > > in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their > > ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She > > didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like > > innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the > > lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly > > reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant > > woman, heaven forbid. > > In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of > > History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades > > before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of > > eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of > > all their witches wouldn't improve anything. > > I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum > > wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener > > Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a > > Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting > > a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose > > binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date > > "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, > > opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in > > incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was > > studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered > > how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There > > were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect > > the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century > > caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the > > crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's > > family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on > > line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I > > didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also > > feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had > > gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. > > Mark Seifert > > On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel > > wrote: > > Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. > > Mathias > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > > Chris Barker > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > > > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > > > Cc: 'Lutelist' > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at > > that time I'd > > > call him a thug too! > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > > > Monica Hall > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > > > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > > > Cc: Lutelist > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the > > Taliban in > > > Afghanistan. > > > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural > > heritage. > >
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
I agree with you, Monica. Again it's a case of retroprojection: we have this sense for comparing everything with everything because we have a sense for history, something they did not have: history as we know it was invented in the 19th century. We can arrive to some conclusions about all this it if we consider the big quantity of words with arabic roots that are now still present in the spanish language: lots of them! We in Spain are not conscious of these roots now, but in the 16th century they were very present, for sure, because arabic belonged to the daily life. But they were nevertheless used, otherwise they would now be extinct, and that is not the case. Excuse my poor english... Manolo Enviado desde mi iPhone > El 6/5/2015, a las 21:18, Monica Hall escribió: > > Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it > had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. > Monica > > > - Original Message - From: "Mark Seifert" > To: "Ron Andrico" ; "Christopher Wilke" > ; "Dan Winheld" ; "Rob > MacKillop" ; "Howard Posner" > ; "David Van Ooijen" > Cc: "'Lutelist'" > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > >> Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating >> topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany >> Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally >> expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important >> date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed >> in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their >> ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She >> didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like >> innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the >> lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly >> reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant >> woman, heaven forbid. >> In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of >> History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades >> before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of >> eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of >> all their witches wouldn't improve anything. >> I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum >> wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener >> Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a >> Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting >> a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose >> binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date >> "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. Monica - Original Message - From: "Mark Seifert" To: "Ron Andrico" ; "Christopher Wilke" ; "Dan Winheld" ; "Rob MacKillop" ; "Howard Posner" ; "David Van Ooijen" Cc: "'Lutelist'" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5]edward.y...@gmail.com> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6]l...@pantagruel.de> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml" <[8]man...@manololaguillo.com>; > "Lutelist" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... > > > > > > > > II?III? I.I>>IuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. > > HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. > > aeCURe>>aaeuae>>P:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[10]l...@pantagruel.de> wrote: > >>
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Probably the "Seiffert witch book" is the German translation of "Cautio criminalis seu de processibus contra Sagas Liber" (English: Cautio criminalis or juridical objection because of the witch processes) by Friedrich von der Spee, who was a Jesuit and struggled against the condemnation and killing of witches. Indeed it is from 1648, when fortunately the witch mania was coming slowly to an end. Online at: http://reader.digitale-sammlungen.de/de/fs1/object/display/bsb10395497_5.html In the 18th century only very few persons were murdered as witches. Best regards Markus Am 06.05.2015 um 14:51 schrieb Mark Seifert: Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5]edward.y...@gmail.com> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6]l...@pantagruel.de> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml" <[8]man...@manololaguillo.com>; > "Lutelist" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, j
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof Brittany Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from their ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant woman, heaven forbid. In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting decades before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse effects of eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of all their witches wouldn't improve anything. I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor dusting a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it out, opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect the botched Salem trials and executions before the turn of the century caused Germans concern so they wanted to do a better legal job than the crazed Massachusetts clerics. Talk about having a skeleton in one's family's ancestral closet. I tried later to access that volume on line, but the book appears to be gone. Since classes had ended, I didn't take the book to my German teacher Herr Reller, but I also feared what the book might contain. I believe by 1728 the Spanish had gotten over any obsession about Hexen, but not yet England and Germany. Mark Seifert On Wednesday, May 6, 2015 4:07 AM, Mathias RAP:sel wrote: Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" <[5]edward.y...@gmail.com> > To: "Mark Wheeler" <[6]l...@pantagruel.de> > Cc: "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; "ml" <[8]man...@manololaguillo.com>; > "Lutelist" <[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... > > > > > > > > II?III? I.I>>IuI-oIII?I 1/2I^1I-oII 1/2 II+-III'II?I 1/4IuI-I?I 1/2 IuI-o IuI-I|II 1/2I?I IuI 1/4IuI IuIII 1/4II,I.. > > HA| litterA| electronicA| ab iPhono missA| sunt. > > aeCURe>>aaeuae>>P:c, 1/4eae-oe-aaa 3/4iPhonea > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler <[10]l...@pantagruel.de> wrote: > >> > >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article > >> > >> [11]https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf > >> > >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set > >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
The purely fictional - non-historical one. - Original Message - From: "Mathias Rösel" Cc: "'Lutelist'" Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 12:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Barker Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' Cc: 'Lutelist' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that time I'd call him a thug too! Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. Monica - Original Message - From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" To: "Mark Wheeler" Cc: "Monica Hall" ; "ml" ; "Lutelist" Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just > saying... > > > > τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. > 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler wrote: >> >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article >> >> https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf >> >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the >> English Queen. >> >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! >> >> All the best >> Mark >> >> >> >> >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: >>> >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an >>> inappropriate set of criteria. >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. >>> >>> Monica briefly >>> >>> >>> >>> - Original Message - From: "ml" >>> To: "LUTELIST List" >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy >>> >>> Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality (for instance sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly everything. Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear: Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree than other countries." But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. Galileo's case is of course very well known. It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) Manolo > El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith > escribió: > > > That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's > book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a > refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or > Venetiana dance cycles. > > Sean > > > > On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: > > A word of caution here: > > We are making judgements based primarily on the printed evidence > (i.e., the 7 main vihuela tab
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Read Hillary Mantel on that topic, you'll get another view. Mathias > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of > Chris Barker > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 6:11 PM > To: 'Monica Hall'; 'Edward Chrysogonus Yong' > Cc: 'Lutelist' > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > I agree on Thomas Cromwell as well! Had Henry VIII not been king at that > time I'd > call him a thug too! > > Chris > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf > Of > Monica Hall > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 9:19 AM > To: Edward Chrysogonus Yong > Cc: Lutelist > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > Yes - Simon Schama has likened Cromwell and his supporters to the Taliban in > Afghanistan. > They were certainly responsible for destroying some of our cultural heritage. > And Thomas Cromwell a century earlier was just an avaricious thug. > Monica > > > - Original Message - > From: "Edward Chrysogonus Yong" > To: "Mark Wheeler" > Cc: "Monica Hall" ; "ml" ; > "Lutelist" > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2015 10:55 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > > > > > England falling to 16th C Catholic Spain may have been better for > > music and culture than falling to Cromwell and the Puritans, just saying... > > > > > > > > τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη. > > Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt. > > 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。 > > This e-mail was sent from my iPhone. > > > >> On 5 May 2015, at 4:40 pm, Mark Wheeler wrote: > >> > >> Regarding Elizabeth I's racism here is an interesting article > >> > >> https://www.press.jhu.edu/timeline/sel/Bartels_2006.pdf > >> > >> What Monica says about not judging the past by an inappropriate set > >> of criteria is true and is also appropriate to the "racism" of the > >> English Queen. > >> > >> It may not be PC, but I personally am exceedingly happy that England > >> did not fall to 16th century Catholic Spain! > >> > >> All the best > >> Mark > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On May 5, 2015, at 9:41 AM, Monica Hall wrote: > >>> > >>> Yes - you are right. We shouldn't judge the past by an > >>> inappropriate set of criteria. > >>> Spain has got a bad press in the English speaking world because most > >>> of us study history from an English/Northern Europe point of view. > >>> Queen Elizabeth I was a racist - want to expel all coloured people > >>> from England. So was Shakespeare. Jews are always villains. > >>> > >>> Monica briefly > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> - Original Message - From: "ml" > >>> To: "LUTELIST List" > >>> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2015 8:53 PM > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > >>> > >>> > Spain was not an exception regarding free vs. conservative > thinking. I mean, Spain was not more conservative than England or > France, in regard to what is right or wrong in religion, morality > (for instance > sexuality.) and so on. Fear was (and is) the explication of nearly > everything. > > Perhaps Jean Delumeau (La peur en Occident, Fayard, 1978) hits the > nail when he says, concluding his wonderful book, that Satan was > seen everywhere. He is the enemy, he inspires the turks, the > witches, the heresies, the plagues, etc. When the attention is > focused on jews and 'moriscos' (that is what happens in Spain), the > witches are not so closely monitorized. In other european > countries, not so much worried with jews, heresies (here the > protestants, there the catholics) were prosecuted instead. Only two > countries, Delumeau continues, "escaped from this general fear: > Poland and Italy. The latter perhaps because of being more pagan > than his neighbors (that was Erasmus' opinion), or because the > church was controlling it better than elsewhere. In any case, it > seems that Italy lost his mind because of these fears in a lesser degree > than > other countries." > > But. if we read Carlo Ginzburg's Il formaggio e i fermi. Il cosmo > di un mugnaio del '500 (1976), a seminal work in micro-history, > Italy suffered under the inquisition as well. > Galileo's case is of course very well known. > > It's all too easy to project from our present time to that past. > > Regards from Barcelona, dear lute friends. :-) > > Manolo > > > > > El 04/05/2015, a las 19:27, Sean Smith escribió: > > > > > > That's what I'm thinking, too. The very first piece in Dalza's > > book is the Caldibi Castigliano and it certainly points to a > > refined and complex idiom unlike anything else in his Ferrerese or > > Venetiana dance cycles. > > > > Sean > > > > > > > > On May 4, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Gary Boye wrote: > > > > A word of caution here: > > > > We are making judgements based primaril
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