[LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music
The form of improvisation that I have found most helpful in my own development is one that I have not otherwise seen addressed, which is improvising on larger forms, which we might call extempore arrangement, or perhaps the cocktail pianist routine. In most of my recent chamber music concerts, when I have been asked to supply a theorbo solo, rather than playing music by Kappy, Picci, Castaldi, or de Viseè, I have instead extemporized a version of one or another of these numbers from the hit parade (things many of us know backwards and forwards): Amarilli mia bella, a Lachrimae pavane, Mark how the blushful morn, Lascia ch'io pianga, les voix humaines, or Merula's Foll'é ben, with a few more numbers always in the pipeline. I find it more satisfying and more interesting than ground bass improvisation, though I do a lot of that on renaissance lute (plus a few similar extempore arrangement things, mostly Dowland songs). Eventually I intend to do the same on baroque lute. My ! method is to pick something I know ridiculously well, that I've accompanied to the point of nausea, find an idiomatic key to play it in, and then play it by ear over and over till it sounds good. The rule is that the notes are never written down, and while I don't try to play markedly different ornaments or diminutions every time, I also don't try to play 'em the same unless I come up with something really cool. Always preface with an improvised prelude. And make a desultory stab at some stylistic integrity. Sent from my Ouija board On Jul 1, 2015, at 2:08 PM, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: Excellent summation, Rob. While your examples make perfect sense to me, I find that most people who manage to wrap their fingers around a lute come from a point of view that takes comfort in a re-creative art, stopping short of the total commitment it takes to go beyond making beautiful sounds on an expensive instrument. There is nothing wrong with the level of competence that time and opportunity permits but, as you point out, just not dropping the instrument is only the tip of the iceberg. To learn improvisation on an instrument as technically difficult as the lute requires study that goes far beyond just playing the original notes well. But we all know for certain that the surviving music that was written down is only a miniscule amount of the music that was played, and most historical players who attained a professional standard were also composers. The longer I'm in this game, the more I see very few completely dedicated professional players with the work ethic to become conversant in the language of historical lute music to the point where they might compose extempore. Excepting you and McFarlane. RA CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: robmackil...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Improvising Baroque Music Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 21:43:03 +0100 To: praelu...@hotmail.com Lots of interesting comments from a few contributors. There seem to be a number of issues. 1. Original source material, for lute, baroque guitar, certainly, but other instruments too. All that must be looked at and absorbed as best as possible. 2. Stylistic details - what we do for Weiss we should probably not do for Robert de Visee. We have to be careful here, while at the same time expressing ourselves. 3. Decoration of given material, especially on repeats. Most of us would work this out in advance for a recording or important gig, but relatively free decoration should be explored at home. 4. Improvised composition. This could be a Prelude, for example, or an entirely new piece within a dance style, or an abstract style such as a fugue. It is here that Steve Herberman, I think, gives us ideas, albeit on a seven-string guitar, that we could explore on baroque lutes or arch lutes. I don't see this approach anywhere in the lute or baroque guitar literature, though I'd be happy to be pointed towards an original source which helps me play a fugue, for instance. There are moments in that video where Steve closes his eyes, and really improvises in two parts, in a baroque style. Let's be honest, there are not many of us who could do that on our lutes. 5. I guess my overall point is that there is no one book today (that I am aware of) that teaches baroque lute improvisation, or live composition. Yet Bach, Weiss, de Visee, etc, probably improvised every day of their professional lives. I would like to see more of it, but also support materials for those who would like to give it a try. Thoughts? Rob www.robmackillop.net On 1 Jul 2015, at 16:15, Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: Thanks for this, Rob. From my perspective gained through reading the sources (including Quantz, Rameau, CPE Bach), improvisation is not an extra - it's required. This has everything to do with the difference
[LUTE] Re: Vihuela Stringing
Albert de Rippe, Douce Memoire intab (1562), bar 26--emphasize, or play only, the high octave of the fourth course on the first and third beats, or it'll sound kind of dumb. Sent from my Ouija board On May 13, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Dick Hoban rpho...@gmail.com wrote: The early German lutenist Adolf Blindhamer indicates the use of this split course technique in a few of his praeambulum pieces found in the manuscript that commonly bears his name. It is approximately dated 1526. Sent from my iPhone On May 12, 2015, at 11:35 AM, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: Let's not get confused here - the split course technique consists of stopping only one string of a unison course so that the course produces two different notes. This was used by Capirola, Fuenllana, Bakfark, and possibly others. Playing the strings of an octave course separately is a completely different technique, not used (as far as I know) before Mouton in the late 17th century. Martin On 12/05/2015 18:25, Lex van Sante wrote: Yes, for instance in Rechercar XIII one has to finger one string of the fourth course and plucking both of them. Op 12 mei 2015, om 18:18 heeft Monica Hall het volgende geschreven: Does Capirola say that you should play one or other string of an octave strung course? Monica - Original Message - From: Christopher Wilke chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu To: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; dwinh...@lmi.net Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 3:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vihuela Stringing I suppose he meant Capirola. Chris [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone At May 12, 2015, 8:27:26 AM, Monica Hall'mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk' Fuenllana (1554) prescribes playing only one of the two strings in the course in some passages (as does Dalza - does he?) As far as I am aware this is not what Fuenllana does. What he does do is play two different notes on the same course - stopping one string of a course and leaving the other unstopped. References 1. https://yho.com/footer0 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com
[LUTE] Re: band-aid texture question
I've used newskin liquid bandage but don't like the sound I get with it. Fabric bandages make a nice sound, not like real thumb flesh, but nice. Sent from my Ouija board On Jan 29, 2015, at 10:29 AM, Charles Mokotoff mokot...@gmail.com wrote: [1]http://www.newskinproducts.com/products/liquid_bandage.aspx I've used this before. It's worth a try. On Jan 29, 2015, at 10:52 AM, wayne cripps [2]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Hi folks - I am having serious issues with cracked skin on my thumb. about where it contacts the string, because of the dry winter weather here in the north. I am using band-aids to keep the crack closed, but the ones that I have tried all are too slippery to get a good sound on the lute strings. Has anyone found a good answer to this problem - either some bandage that works well for plucking, or some other way to keep the skin from cracking? Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.newskinproducts.com/products/liquid_bandage.aspx 2. mailto:w...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: band-aid texture question
Also, next winter, try frequent moisturizing combined with filing off calluses before they get thick enough to crack. Sent from my Ouija board On Jan 29, 2015, at 11:26 AM, John Lenti johnle...@hotmail.com wrote: I've used newskin liquid bandage but don't like the sound I get with it. Fabric bandages make a nice sound, not like real thumb flesh, but nice. Sent from my Ouija board On Jan 29, 2015, at 10:29 AM, Charles Mokotoff mokot...@gmail.com wrote: [1]http://www.newskinproducts.com/products/liquid_bandage.aspx I've used this before. It's worth a try. On Jan 29, 2015, at 10:52 AM, wayne cripps [2]w...@cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Hi folks - I am having serious issues with cracked skin on my thumb. about where it contacts the string, because of the dry winter weather here in the north. I am using band-aids to keep the crack closed, but the ones that I have tried all are too slippery to get a good sound on the lute strings. Has anyone found a good answer to this problem - either some bandage that works well for plucking, or some other way to keep the skin from cracking? Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.newskinproducts.com/products/liquid_bandage.aspx 2. mailto:w...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Liturgy
Hi all, On the occasion of the Feast of the Baptism of Jesus, here I am with my group, Wayward Sisters, in a performance of my own arrangement of Christ unser Herr zum Jordan kamm (BWV 684). You can tell it's my arrangement because the theorbo gets the chorale tune: [1]http://youtu.be/XTpdfGI-v_c Sent from my Ouija board -- References 1. http://youtu.be/XTpdfGI-v_c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo on airplane
I had one of those Czech cases. It survived a good long while, before it was destroyed, but honestly I think it was a freak accident. There is no good way to travel with a theorbo. If the airline says so, you'll have to check it and it might cost a lot of money if the agent decides it's oversize. If you can get it onto the plane in an extra seat, great. One crucial thing in the event that you have to check it is to slack the strings completely. It doesn't prevent the theorbo from getting smashed, but it will keep it from pulling itself apart, and it does make the instrument a little more resilient in the event of it being dropped or something. I do this weekly during the concert season and other than one time that the case went through Miami airport's theorbo guillotine (which is more humane than many other theorbo execution methods), one time the Czech case was dropped from a great height (I think), either in Detroit or in Seattle and the case wasn't damaged but a rib was broken and the seam opened most of the way around the top, and the time the Czech case was run over by a truck at Oakland Airport (was all I could surmise) and the end of the neck extension was wrenched off, spiral fracture style, my theorbo has always made it there in one piece. So that's just four incidents in maybe 120 flights. Oh yeah, except when I didn't slack the strings and the seams opened on top because any tension at all on the strings makes the instrument want to fold in half at low temperatures, and whichever glue joint is weakest will be the one to let go, and if you have tension on the strings when your theorbo is in the freezing cold hold of a plane, woe betide you. It's also kind of cathartic to finish a gig and pull all the tuning pegs out (ftpt, fthpt, ftpt they say as they wind down!), and put your theorbo in its case (also, ensure that the instrument is totally immobilized in there!) secure in the knowledge that there's a fairly good chance it'll be just fine and if not, well, the outpouring of sympathy and outrage on Facebook when you post the pictures is immensely gratifying. Good luck! John Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 22:20:49 +0200 CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: theorbo on airplane I've always taken my theorbo and archlute on an extra seat, but have only flown in Europe with it. It's a hassle, a bother, never want to do it, but I prefer it to checking it in. Mine is a toy theorbo with a case of about 175. I understand some airline companies only accept instruments up to 140 as extra seat. I have a smallish archlute with a case of 140. I prefer flying with that one. Well, I prefer flying with the little 6-course, but that's not always an option. YMMV David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 17 June 2014 19:28, Susanne Herre [3]mandolinens...@web.de wrote: Dear all, Sorry for a question which arises often here. I have to fly with my theorbo whose case is 1,63m long and I am wondering if it may fit on an extra seat. The body goes into the neck at approx. 56 cm and it is 40cm wide. Otherwise what are your experiences with theorboes in flightcases (in this case: the grey-white Czech one) in the storage of the plane? Would be nice if you could share your experiences! Thank you and all the best, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:mandolinens...@web.de 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: pegbox screw
I've had screws put in after the fact the couple of times pegboxes have popped off my lutes. I'm also curious, Mr. Shepherd, about the historical use of dowels in the construction, repair, and conversion of lutes. Being on the road with lutes means they get banged up a little, and the wonderful John Rollins accomplished some splendid things rebuilding the neck of my traveling theorbo (a Klaus Jacobsen Miata) with the use of some big, fat dowels, beautifully concealed. Sent from my Ouija board On Feb 19, 2014, at 1:46 AM, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: Hi Nigel, Well the old lutes typically have a nail. The interesting thing is that in some X-rays you can see the nail only goes through the back of the pegbox, not the block at the end - so it seems they attached the back of the pegbox before adding the rest of it, which seems bizarre to us. I used a screw on my first two or three lutes, but haven't used one since. As you say, it's a large gluing area, and not using a screw or nail means there is no extra work needed to cover the head of it. I suppose it would also make it easier to remove the pegbox if that was ever necessary, not that easy is a word that would come to mind in this context. M On 19/02/2014 09:50, nigelsolomon wrote: Just wondering how many builders fix the pegobx to the neck using a screw, or just glue. There is a biggish surface when attaching the pegbox, is it necessary to include a screw? Nigel --- Ce courrier électronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malveillant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active. http://www.avast.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
[LUTE] Rare chance to hear Castaldi in Portland
Dear Lute friends, My esteemed colleague Hideki Yamaya and I will present a program of Italian lute duets, Saturday, February 16, 7:30 PM at the Community Music Center in Portland, OR ([1]3350 SE Francis Street, Portland, Oregon 97202) Besides the central element of the Castaldi theorbo-tiorbino duets, we'll also feature the Francesco/Matelart duets for unequal lutes, plus accompanied and unaccompanied guitar and theorbo music. The blurb, if you feel like sharing and helping to get the word out: CAPRICCI A DUE STROMENTI: 17th-Century Duets for Lutes and Theorbos John Lenti, lute and theorbo Hideki Yamaya, lute, tiorbino, and Baroque guitar Hideki Yamaya of Musica Maestrale will be joined by John Lenti, lutenist for Portland Baroque Orchestra, for an exciting program of Italian early baroque music for lutes and theorbos. Of particular interest are duets by Bellerofonte Castaldi for theorbo and tiorbino, or octave-pitched theorbo, an extremely rare instrument. Other composers represented include Alessandro Piccinini and Johann Hieronymus Kapsberger. $14 general; $12 students/seniors Best, John -- References 1. http:/// To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: How to cut fret shims.
Thin guitar picks slid under frets are dynamite shims. Also wadded paper. Many's the corner been ripped off one of my scores to fold a few times and stick under a loose fret. Little pieces of bamboo skewers are also useful. Sent from my Ouija board On Feb 9, 2014, at 5:25 PM, Sterling spiffys84...@yahoo.com wrote: Why replace the frets when you could just tighten them? Just burn the knot a little more then put back in place. My frets last about ten years. The only time I ever replace frets is to try a different size. Except for perhaps the second or third frets which do wear out after a few years, then you just scoot over the worn part to be between the courses. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Feb 9, 2014, at 4:35 PM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: I could whittle with a utility knife, but that would be wasteful and time consuming. I find that a surgical saw, something like what one can find even on Amazon (Satterlee Bone Saw 13) is an ideal tool. A very thin blade with sharp teeth. Just make sure you do not cut yourself in the process... It is actually ideal for many uses with wood, bone and plastics. Guys, Why would either of you go to all that bother, rather than merely replacing the fret? Of course, an emergency situation (5 minutes before show time, during rehearsal, or stuck out somewhere beyond easy reach of the postal service no spare gut) is another story. I could remove replace 10 gut frets in the time it would take you to whittle a single proper shim out of a 1/2 inch by 1/2 inch by 10 inches ( 1cm x 1cm x 20cm) piece of anything. That is, single frets. The more traditional doubles (still routinely used by the viol players) would take a little more time. Fret changing is not hard at all, once you've done a few and get into the rhythm of it. Soon you will be getting them so tight that you will have to back off to keep from breaking the thinner ones, and even that big, bad 1st fret will only take the slightest more aggression to make as tight as necessary. Thomas Mace has a pretty good tutorial on frets, as I remember. So does Dan Larson on his website, and no doubt there are others easily available. Catch me at the right time I'll do it for you, and show you how. A cigarette lighter, fingernail clippers, and maybe (strictly optional) a small pliers for the 1st fret. The business with the surgical saw is what I paid a professional luthier to do recently when I had bone body frets put on my lute- frets 10 up. He messed up my 9th 8th frets leveling the new bone frets, and it took me 3 minutes or less to replace them practically under his nose in the shop. Happy fretting! (It almost gets fun) Dan I could whittle with a utility knife, butthat would be wasteful and time consuming. alexander r. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A rather old lute cameo
Pretty sure it's Christopher Wilson. Sent from my Ouija board On Feb 4, 2014, at 2:27 PM, Thomas Walker twlute...@hotmail.com wrote: Hello all, I was watching an old Inspector Morse episode, and lo and behold, there was a lute accompanying a countertenor for Sorrow Stay. I think the episode is nearing 30 years old, maybe around 1987...anyone have a clue as to the id of the performers? Just for curiosity's sake, Thomas Walker -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo
Speaking as a full-time theorbo player, I feel that I can say with some authority that the theorbo cannot be held comfortably by anyone ever. What you do is you play near the bridge and suffer, pop some Advil, suffer some more, pop a Demerol, more massage, claw at the strings nearish the bridge, Demerol, suffer, stretch, suffer, take a month off, and then start over. The theorbo is out to get you, and it will win. Sent from my Ouija board On Oct 3, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christopher Wilke chriswi...@yahoo.com wrote: Dear all, Don't forget the right hand and arm placement. It should be very close to the bridge with fingers nearly perpendicular to the strings. This is not only historical, but it helps the instrument cut through an ensemble much better than the delicate tone produced by playing over the rose. I typically start by placing the instrument so that the historically appropriate right hand technique is possible and I can reach the left hand notes. Usually this automatically puts the theorbo right in place, without having to constantly cajole it. (Becomes more difficult on a mucho macho tiorba.) I find that an almost-vertical position makes it very difficult to get the right hand close enough to the bridge without feeling like you're in a Picasso painting. Chris Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer www.christopherwilke.com On Thu, 10/3/13, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thigh support for theorbo To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk, Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Thursday, October 3, 2013, 12:12 PM For the upright, almost vertical position check out the Pipa player's technique. I have NEVER seen them held horizontally- and those are not excessively large lutes. Having played the viola da gamba quite seriously years ago, I can attest to the great ease of long stretches on a vertically held instrument. It's not uncommon for a typical (usually Renaissance) lute player to get a tenor size viol- only to discover that it's uncomfortably small for the vertical position for long, serious practice/playing. Except for the larger/longer archlutes, holding comfort security has never been an issue for me (unlike Classical Guitar; scoliosis tendonitis- thanks a lot, Segovia!). A large suede guitar strap handles my small arciliuto quite handily, and I now hold my guitars the way I hold my lutes- on the right thigh, legs crossed either way, low seat, or sometimes RIGHT foot on a low footstool or guitar case end, the cat, or whatever may be underfoot in stomping distance. One of my new students spent weeks finding no comfortable lute position- until the day I had her try a simple lute song (she was a singer) -she inhaled, straightened up somewhat on her chair- channeling her singing awareness position- and the lute fell right into place on her lap, comfortable and easy to hold play. In that vein one might treat the problem of holding lutes as an almost Yogic sort of challenge. Also perhaps contact Jacob Herringman- he is a licensed Alexander Technique practitioner as well as a hell of a fine lute player, but I don't know if he has any experience with the larger instruments. But suction cups on lutes? SUCTION CUPS??? Lord have mercy! (Excuse me, Herr Kapsperger, is that a toilet plunger in your hand or are you just glad to play continuo for me?) Dan On 10/3/2013 12:57 AM, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Bill, Most early representations show theorboes being held quite high up and resting on the right thigh rather than between the legs as a modern 'classical' guitarist. Further, many early extant instruments have fixing points for a cord/strap/ribbon: a button (or similar) at the end of the body and one on the back of the first pegbox roughly where the pegs are. Incidentally I can't see evidence of a practice of sitting on the strap end. By resting the instrument on the right thigh (similar to a flamenco player's posture rather than a modern 'classical' guitarist- ie inbetween the legs) and using such a strap I find all one needs is something like a rough thick chamois leather placed on the thigh to avoid any possibility of the instrument's lower side sliding forward. No doubt, as has been suggested before (Bob Spencer I think), the heavy coats of earlier players served much the same purpose. It is also helpful to hold a theorbo more upright than a lute so that the centre of gravity is closer in - it also helps a bit in playing large left hand stretches. I've seen quite a few newcomers to the theorbo struggle mightily with trying to play a theorbo in an almost horizontal position as they
[LUTE] Re: Lower 4 voices of Susanne un jour - Sep 10, 2013
Did somebody ask about the bottom voices of this for doing it as a song? If that hasn't already been resolved, here it is in PDF. Sent from my Ouija board Begin forwarded message: From: John Lenti johnle...@gmail.com To: John Lenti johnle...@hotmail.com Subject: Lower 4 voices of Susanne un jour - Sep 10, 2013 Scanned with TurboScan. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Liuto forte
Don't own one but have borrowed and gigged on. Funny sound, like a Steinway classical guitar, but really responsive and loud. I think there is a place for them in this world. Sent from my Ouija board On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:05 PM, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote: If they called it a fake lute, it would not sell as well. __ From: Bruno Correia bruno.l...@gmail.com To: List LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 1:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Liuto forte Would anybody be willing to share his own experience with liuto forte instruments? -- Bruno Figueiredo Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e interpretac,ao historicamente informada no alaude e teorba. Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de Janeiro. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
You guys know that transposing down a third while reading baritone clef means you're reading bass clef, right? Somebody plunks bari clef on your stand, first thing you do is affect a thoughtful air and say you get such a pretty, plummy sound in your middle rangethis might sound crazy, but let's try it down a third, what do you say? Can you really transpose it at sight? Of course, I'm not some kind of hack! So, transposing bari clef at sight is, in fact, easier, than reading it at pitch. Sent from my Ouija board On Aug 9, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com wrote: No disrespect meant at all to David Tayler. That was squarely delivered to the people making those comments about whichever videos he was talking about. The original quote: Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub after an orchestra rehearsal. Did you see this. OMG how could they not know? What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a litany. On Aug 9, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and with appropriate ornaments and affect. Yes it does. If you are stopped cold in your tracks by an unfamiliar clef, that will end the collaboration instantly. Not too much will happen in the way of ornamentation either. Of course, it has been said that what occurs between the notes, and the silences in music, also can have the greatest meaning- so I will give affect a pass. What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like they played the wrong chord and didn't even know? Is this disrespect necessary? Dr. Tayler has been in the music business for a lifetime- we have no knowledge of every single incident that transpired in all of his engagements over a long busy professional career. I've seen/heard some pretty cringeworthy Early Music performances myself, but more in the earlier days of the Early Music revival. There have been a number of somewhat different Bubbles that we have all lived in; both in time, place, and circumstances. I have a couple hair of raising stories myself- playing the lute outside for some homeless people in the S.F. Fillmore district, gigs in honky-tonk rural bars, and one in a maximum security ward of a psychiatric institution in Manhattan. Wrong chords in bad places are really not an impossibility. Dan On 8/9/2013 2:35 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: I don't know who is living in the bigger bubble. I know lots of Early Music performers from diverse countries and backgrounds not to mention all the exposure from being on the Board of Directors of 3 music organizations (EMA, Apollo's Fire, LSA). I have never heard the laughably ridiculous characterizations you quote. I guess those lute players really are bottom of the barrel, directing BEMF, Tempesta di Mari and such. Really should replace O'Dette and Stubbs in Boston with a couple of cornetto players, that will finally raise the bar. This no short cuts business reminds me of what my Medical School anatomy professor told us about the good ol days. When he was a student, your anatomy exam included sticking your hand in a closed bag containing several small bones of the foot which you had to identify by feel. Fundamental skill? You could identify those bones by smell and still be unable to cut your way out of a paper bag in the operating room. It also reminds me of the life story of the great German baritone Thomas Quasthoff who was denied entrance to his local conservatory because all singers had to be able to play the piano. What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like they played the wrong chord and didn't even know? I guess in their conservatory, they were taught to telegraph facially to the audience whenever they played parallel fifths or a wrong figure because of course that's the only way anyone in the audience would know. Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and with appropriate ornaments and affect. The stultifying performances of many a conservatory graduate can attest to that. I suggest a good reason for smart talented lute players NOT to have the same skill sets of these top musicians is that in fact they are smart and talented and have more fruitful
[LUTE] Re: general public Lute awareness
That's just fun trivia. As to the matter at hand, right on, Danny. Sent from my Ouija board On Aug 10, 2013, at 4:20 AM, John Lenti johnle...@hotmail.com wrote: You guys know that transposing down a third while reading baritone clef means you're reading bass clef, right? Somebody plunks bari clef on your stand, first thing you do is affect a thoughtful air and say you get such a pretty, plummy sound in your middle rangethis might sound crazy, but let's try it down a third, what do you say? Can you really transpose it at sight? Of course, I'm not some kind of hack! So, transposing bari clef at sight is, in fact, easier, than reading it at pitch. Sent from my Ouija board On Aug 9, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com wrote: No disrespect meant at all to David Tayler. That was squarely delivered to the people making those comments about whichever videos he was talking about. The original quote: Other Early Music musicians make constant and disparaging jokes about the quality of the lute YouTube videos. They circulate them in groups as joke emails, especially where two continuo players are playing the same piece but playing different chords. Like major and minor at the same time. It is one of the most common comments I hear in the pub after an orchestra rehearsal. Did you see this. OMG how could they not know? What they are saying is not only did they play the mistake, but they are unaware that a mistake has been played. Of course, these same commentators are not making their own solo videos, but still, it is a litany. On Aug 9, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote: Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and with appropriate ornaments and affect. Yes it does. If you are stopped cold in your tracks by an unfamiliar clef, that will end the collaboration instantly. Not too much will happen in the way of ornamentation either. Of course, it has been said that what occurs between the notes, and the silences in music, also can have the greatest meaning- so I will give affect a pass. What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like they played the wrong chord and didn't even know? Is this disrespect necessary? Dr. Tayler has been in the music business for a lifetime- we have no knowledge of every single incident that transpired in all of his engagements over a long busy professional career. I've seen/heard some pretty cringeworthy Early Music performances myself, but more in the earlier days of the Early Music revival. There have been a number of somewhat different Bubbles that we have all lived in; both in time, place, and circumstances. I have a couple hair of raising stories myself- playing the lute outside for some homeless people in the S.F. Fillmore district, gigs in honky-tonk rural bars, and one in a maximum security ward of a psychiatric institution in Manhattan. Wrong chords in bad places are really not an impossibility. Dan On 8/9/2013 2:35 PM, Daniel Shoskes wrote: I don't know who is living in the bigger bubble. I know lots of Early Music performers from diverse countries and backgrounds not to mention all the exposure from being on the Board of Directors of 3 music organizations (EMA, Apollo's Fire, LSA). I have never heard the laughably ridiculous characterizations you quote. I guess those lute players really are bottom of the barrel, directing BEMF, Tempesta di Mari and such. Really should replace O'Dette and Stubbs in Boston with a couple of cornetto players, that will finally raise the bar. This no short cuts business reminds me of what my Medical School anatomy professor told us about the good ol days. When he was a student, your anatomy exam included sticking your hand in a closed bag containing several small bones of the foot which you had to identify by feel. Fundamental skill? You could identify those bones by smell and still be unable to cut your way out of a paper bag in the operating room. It also reminds me of the life story of the great German baritone Thomas Quasthoff who was denied entrance to his local conservatory because all singers had to be able to play the piano. What deep brand of stupid does it take to make a comment like they played the wrong chord and didn't even know? I guess in their conservatory, they were taught to telegraph facially to the audience whenever they played parallel fifths or a wrong figure because of course that's the only way anyone in the audience would know. Being able to play figures off a baritone clef and transpose down a third while doing so has nothing to do with playing musically, collaboratively and with appropriate ornaments and affect. The stultifying performances of many a conservatory graduate can attest to that. I suggest a good
[LUTE] Re: Cheap flight case.
I got one from Casextreme.com. It's great. Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 20:38:14 +0100 To: wa...@physics.utexas.edu CC: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: s...@jacaranda-music.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cheap flight case. How about; http://www.bustercases.co.uk/ Stephen On 24 Jul 2013, at 19:33, Herbert Ward wrote: Someone suggested to me that you might get a generic rectangular flight case big enough to contain your usual lute case and foam padding. This would have to be much cheaper than getting a flight case custom built. Inside two nested cases and 2-3 inches of foam, it seems a lute should be able to survive an airport baggage handling system. I spent about 20 minutes searching online for such an item, but found nothing. All the cases were too small, meant for electric guitar amps, DJ turntables, etc. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: extreme theorbo case
Sean, I'm not up on the listserv abbreviations, so I initially thought you were calling me a jerk, but in Norwegian or something. Sven said to Ole, ya know, wit yer t'um flappin on da outside a' yer hand on dat renaissance lute ya got dere, ya look like a Iirc. Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:07:35 -0700 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: lutesm...@mac.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: extreme theorbo case Hi ho John, Iirc, he was at the same LSA event as when I met you wa-a-ay back when, earlier this century. (It's impossible to keep DS away from Cleveland.) You probably didn't notice him running and hiding behind doors and furniture whenever you walked by like we did. Fun times those seminars. Sean ;^) On Jun 18, 2012, at 5:33 PM, John Lenti wrote: I like the idea of the case-case, and I may get one for my baroque lute, but I'm thinking more particularly of the ones you just stick a theorbo in and go. Also, when do I get to meet you, Danny? We know way too many of the same people, like I ran into this lawyer on the train from DC to Baltimore whose husband is a musicologist/lutenist and she's on the board of Les Delices, and there you were, being brought up in conversation, and we play too many of the same instruments and I'm subscribed to your Youtube channel and feel like we're related. Please pardon my excessive familiarity in advance. I may just rush up and hug you. John Subject: Re: [LUTE] extreme theorbo case From: kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:26:39 -0400 CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu To: johnle...@hotmail.com I had one made for my 13 course lute. The Kingham case goes inside the extreme case. I used it for checked luggage when I flew to Vancouver and back and the lute was fine. Danny On Jun 18, 2012, at 8:23 PM, John Lenti wrote: Dear all, Has anybody got one of these? http://www.casextreme.com/prod_details.php?pid' If so, is it any good? Certainly cheaper than the next few options I can think of, like my IKA case which has begun to show some significant wear including some rather worrying stress fractures (just dropped off at the surfboard shop for repair), and my Kingham cases, which have been reduced to little theorbo-case molecules. All best, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- --
[LUTE] extreme theorbo case
Dear all, Has anybody got one of these? http://www.casextreme.com/prod_details.php?pid' If so, is it any good? Certainly cheaper than the next few options I can think of, like my IKA case which has begun to show some significant wear including some rather worrying stress fractures (just dropped off at the surfboard shop for repair), and my Kingham cases, which have been reduced to little theorbo-case molecules. All best, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: extreme theorbo case
I like the idea of the case-case, and I may get one for my baroque lute, but I'm thinking more particularly of the ones you just stick a theorbo in and go. Also, when do I get to meet you, Danny? We know way too many of the same people, like I ran into this lawyer on the train from DC to Baltimore whose husband is a musicologist/lutenist and she's on the board of Les Delices, and there you were, being brought up in conversation, and we play too many of the same instruments and I'm subscribed to your Youtube channel and feel like we're related. Please pardon my excessive familiarity in advance. I may just rush up and hug you. John Subject: Re: [LUTE] extreme theorbo case From: kidneykut...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 20:26:39 -0400 CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu To: johnle...@hotmail.com I had one made for my 13 course lute. The Kingham case goes inside the extreme case. I used it for checked luggage when I flew to Vancouver and back and the lute was fine. Danny On Jun 18, 2012, at 8:23 PM, John Lenti wrote: Dear all, Has anybody got one of these? http://www.casextreme.com/prod_details.php?pid' If so, is it any good? Certainly cheaper than the next few options I can think of, like my IKA case which has begun to show some significant wear including some rather worrying stress fractures (just dropped off at the surfboard shop for repair), and my Kingham cases, which have been reduced to little theorbo-case molecules. All best, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Tree edition Goess Manuscript CD ROM question
Dear All, Has anyone purchased the Tree Edition publication The Goess Manuscripts: Music Manuscripts in Tablature from Ebenthal Castle, Klangenfurth, Carinthia, Austria. Music for Baroque Lute, Baroque Guitar, Theorbo, Viol. Index.? It's described in the OMI catalogue as Index, with CD ROM of the entire contents of the Goess Manuscripts, compiled by Douglas Alton Smith, Tim Crawford, Francois Pierre Goy, Claude Chauvel, David Ledbetter Gordon Dodd. So, it includes a CD ROM, but the guy at OMI wasn't sure if this meant that the CD ROM included the entire contents of the Goess Mss, that is to say, images of every page of all of the books, which would be great, or if the CD ROM was an index itself, which would be far less interesting to me. He thought the latter more likely. Maybe one of you guys has it. Maybe one of you guys is one of the editors. Anyone? Thanks, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday quotes
The way it's described here, it sounds like a vast conspiracy to discredit instrumental medieval music. If so, let's be thankful it was one perpetrated by tweedy music critics for a very serious magazine with a limited readership, which I suppose is why Sequentia, the Boston Camerata, Ensemble PAN, Ensemble Alcatraz, the Dufay Collective, Ensemble Unicorn and many, many others have since done wonderful, if sometimes a little weird, work and instrumental students at early music programs still spend at least a semester hawanging on musty old hurdy-gurdies, vielles and gothic harps, struggling through Ars Subtilior music while their singer friends mispronounce old French or fail to get the rhythms of Landini ballate. To think it might all have been brought to nought, but thank goodness we mostly rely on critics for nice quotes to put in our press packets, grouse a little bit when they savage us, and otherwise view most of them as grumpy eunuchs. Regarding the ethics of music criticism, I'd be interested to see if we could have a bit more conflict of interest and get more serious musicians, hopefully better writers than I, to write criticism, and if it would make the field more vibrant. Nobody faults Schumann or Berlioz, two of the most readable critics of the nineteenth century, for their conflicts of interest, do they? Schumann had it right about Chopin and Brahms, huh? Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 12:35:21 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: howardpos...@ca.rr.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Saturday quotes On Feb 5, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Ron Andrico wrote: While I am also a great admirer of Page's work, I am a little incensed that a reviewer admits to deliberately panning commercial recordings with the intent to advance one point of view. Ethics? Would you be incensed by a reviewer who panned Herbert von Karajan's recordings of Bach because the critic's one point of view was that Bach should be played with attention to historical performance practice? Or a reviewer who admitted that in the 1970's he had deliberately conveyed the message to buy the period-instrument recordings of Bach's cantatas by Harnoncourt and Leonhardt and leave the rest (modern-instrument performances by Richter and Rilling and whoever)? Or, closer to home on this list, is it wrong for a critic to opine that lute recordings on instruments built like modern guitars are not the ones to buy? Critics are paid to convey information and make judgments. If a critic writing for a publication about early music has reached a conclusion that voices-only performance is correct, and that any instruments make it as wrong as Karajan's Brandenburgs, it isn't unethical for that viewpoint to inform his writing--indeed, how could he possibly put it aside and pretend he didn't think the performances with instruments are historically wrong (just as you might conclude, if the instruments were saxophones)? You might find his viewpoint wrong or overly limited, and maybe you're right. But it isn't unethical for a critic to approach his work with his own ideas. The potential ethical problems stem from the small-world nature of the early music community, where the prominent performers and scholars all know each other, and cronyism, or the reverse, is always a problem. When I was review editor for the LSA quarterly, I told some folks (all of them on this list, I think) that there were ethical problems because they were performers writing about other performers or publishers writing about other publishers (competition in common parlance), making for inherent conflict of interest. I don't think anyone had ever brought it up before, and while the (soon-to-be former) reviewers themselves seemed to understand, or at least accepted, my insistence on avoiding systemic conflict of interest, the responses I got from the LSA officialdom was much the same response I would have gotten if I'd said only Martians could write reviews for the Q. And maybe they were right: perhaps if the community is small enough, you have to put up with conflic! t of interest if you want a pool of reviewers. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] baroque guitar in Piedmont Triad region, North Carolina
Does anybody in or around Winston-Salem, NC own a baroque guitar I could borrow from June 13-20? Thanks, John Lenti Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 10:50:12 -0400 To: howardpos...@ca.rr.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: nedma...@aol.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Instrument selling mechanics I've purchased two lutes from ads placed in the Lute Society of America listing. In both cases I was asked to send a cashier's check, which I did. I received the lutes in a timely fashion. But, of course, this arrangement is more protective of the seller than the buyer. Ned On Jun 3, 2010, at 8:55 PM, howard posner wrote: I'm putting a theorbo up for sale shortly, and since it's my first instrument transaction in a good many years and it's likely to be the first time I sell an instrument to someone I don't know, and it's kind of a big-ticket item, I'm curious how other sellers have handled the transaction so as to balance the seller's need to be sure to get the money with the buyer's need to be sure to get the instrument. I don't think I need advice about selling to Nigerians or anyone else who wants to send me a check for more than the amount. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. [1]See how. -- References 1. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page
And to think that this whole fascinating thread was just me looking for
some interesting preludes to play! So glad to be learning so much about
Bartolotti and maybe-Bartolotti while I wait for my music to arrive!
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:32:25 +
To: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
From: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page
Of course - but in any case, ignore the last which was sent by me in
error - I meant to press the save draft key whilst I dug out Hurel
but
must have pressed the send (I thought I'd just deleted it)! The
correct version of my reply to your query is, as I type this, winging
its way to you. You'll see it's longer and I've excised the, probably
contentious, comment about usage of the first course.
What's your view?
rgds
Martyn
--- On Mon, 22/3/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010, 15:46
That's very interesting. Would the fact that Bartolotti was
Italian
make any difference?
As ever
Monica
- Original Message -
From: [1]Martyn Hodgson
To: [2]Monica Hall
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page
Well,
yle of the only theorbo work with the possible name of our man
attached
('Allemande di Angelo Michieli') seems to me rather more treble and
bass polarised - somewhat closer to deVisee's theorbo works or those
of
late 17th/early 18thC lutenists like Count Losy - than the more
French
lute style (breaking of chords etc) of the third quarter of the
17thC.
Interestingly, in this Allemande the first course carries much of
the
melody whereas the commoner theorbo pattern is to use inner courses
(ie
3 and 4)
From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page
To: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Lutelist [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Monday, 22 March, 2010, 14:09
I don't have a solution to this particular problem but I was
interested
in
something which you said about the style of the pieces suggesting a
later
date in the earlier discussion. To witt...
The only thing that bothers me about these attributions to A. M.
Bartolotti is the dates: from style alone I would have tended to
date
the NB
17.706 MS to the end of of the 17thC and the Goess pieces no earler
than
the 1670s (but there are a number of scribes) - but Claude Chauvel
makes a
decent case for B being dead by 1682 when his Royal Household
establishment
books were passed to Launay (of course he may have simply retired
but
I'd
have thought in that case we'd have pension payments recorded).
What Chauvel actually says is that the establishment books record
that
the
possessions (les biens in French) of one Miquelange, Italien were
assigned
to Launay, not that the establishment books were passed to Launay.
Under French law the possessions of foreigners who died in France
became the
property of the king to dispose as he saw fit. If this Miquelange,
Italien
is Bartolotti, he was presumably dead by January 1682 and his
worldly
goods
given to Launay. Bartolotti would still have been alive and active
in
the
1670s but not later.
What is it about the style of the pieces in the Vienna manuscript
which
suggests that they are later that say 1680?
As ever
Monica
Could it be that these two A.M.s are not the same; did he have a
son
also
called A M who played the theorbo? Against such wild speculation is
that B
clearly was an adventurous and, indeed, progressive composer so
perhaps
the
mid 17thC is not unreasonable.
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson [3][4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Alexander Batov [4][5]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com;
Vihuela
Dmth
[5][6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute Dmth
[6][7]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:08 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti - copy of relevant page
--0-595003020-1269245312=:61374
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Alexander - an interesting idea. I've scanned my copy of
the
first page of this 'Preludio' and attach it herewith.
You'll see that the same number is put against different
(tablature)
bass
notes - especially see right at the end of the last line.
My own preference is that
[LUTE] Bartolotti
So has anyone compiled Bartolotti's theorbo pieces, or a selection of them, in any format? Also, a translation of his continuo treatise? Anybody made one of those? Thanks, John __ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. [1]Learn More. -- References 1. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti
Thanks, Mathias! Subject: Re: [LUTE] Bartolotti From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de To: johnle...@hotmail.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:46:00 + There's a compiled edition available from the French Lute Society. See http://www.sf-luth.org/en/?%26nbsp%3BMusical_Publications/Le_Secret_des _Muses Volume 15 : A. M. Bartolotti, Pieces pour theorbe, 36 original pieces and transcriptions from the 2nd book for guitar. By Massimo Moscardo. Paris 1995. 64 p. Price : 15 / 20 + (FR / 2,5 ) (EU / 3 ) Mathias John Lenti johnle...@hotmail.com schrieb: So has anyone compiled Bartolotti's theorbo pieces, or a selection of them, in any format? Also, a translation of his continuo treatise? Anybody made one of those? Thanks, John __ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. [1]Learn More. -- References 1. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL :ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_1 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Viele Gruesse Mathias Roesel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel __ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsofts powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850552/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo
Whenever I decide to play Caccini on 7-course lute or on my (essentially French kind-of) theorbo, I ponder the matter of Caccini's theorbo and things like the fingered g#. First, I really wish I could justify the expense of a bass lute with theorbo tuning. It would make me whole, in a way. The Bottegari lute book (1570s) contains at least one tune by Caccini, and considering the sense of portentousness that Nuove Musiche (1600something) exudes, I'm inclined to think that versions of the other tunes contained in it had also been kicking around Caccini's desk for a while, since a time, maybe, when his songs would have been accompanied on lute. Even if he says the music is 'Nuove.' And since it seems like leaping around octaves in the theorbo bass line is just a fact of life and can be perfectly euphonious (on A theorbo I always start 'Amarilli' on the 7th course and finger the following f# on the 4th course; no complaints yet) I reckon that whatever instrument he originally intended the songs to be accompanied by, the bass lines would be written in a way that was sensible enough for keyboardists to play them as written (maybe also taking pains to ensure that nothing figured '11' would be played as a mere '4') but that lutenists and theorbo players were no more octave-bound in 1600 than they were when Delair authorized playing inconvenient or difficult notes at 16' in 1690. Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 08:49:07 -0800 To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; davidvanooi...@gmail.com From: chriswi...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Caccini's theorbo David, My guess is that is not what we would call a theorbo at all, but rather a bass lute probably tuned theorbo-like. All the strings would therefore be on one neck and those chromatic basses could be fingered. Whether the tuning was in A, G or something else and whether one or both of the upper courses were down the octave is anyone's guess. This is almost certainly the same type of instrument Kapsperger used for his first chitarrone book. I seem to remember that HK doesn't use more than 11 courses in this book and he also requires an apparently fingered G# bass note as well as the open G-natural in Toccata VI. Chris --- On Fri, 3/5/10, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote: From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Caccini's theorbo To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, March 5, 2010, 9:19 AM Do we know anything about the instrument(s) Caccini played? His bass lines sometimes need G as well as G#, (and I believe F as well as F#) in one piece, which is impossible on a 'standard' (...) theorbo in a with 6 strings/courses on the fingerboard. If Caccini were just another composer, and I'd transpose the bass at will, but knowing he was a theorbo player, I'm a wondering about his setup: how many strings on the fingerboard and what nominal pitch? There are many practical solutions, but did somebody make a study into Caccini's lute, perhaps? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/
[LUTE] tangent Re: Straight Answer Please
Strikes me it's a little off-base to claim that double reentrant theorbo tuning was simply a necessity--ever. These guys weren't complete idiots, and probably didn't make those damn behemoth theorboes without any idea of how they were going to tune or string them, and then spend weeks breaking non-reentrant first and second courses before coming up with the re-entrant tuning. Moreover, re-entrant tuning remained standard on French theorboes for quite a while, like it wouldn't have if it wasn't simply a good, workable tuning. They cycled through enough transitional tunings on all manner of other lutes at the turn of the 17th century that, in my opinion, it's quite worthy of note that double reentrant theorbo tuning lasted about as many years as d-minor tuning, that is to say, until people quit playing the instrument altogether. I believe that this is because double reentrant theorbo tuning is an incredibly practical, player-friendly tuning--the melodic styles of Castaldi and de Visee, for instance, exploit it magnificently, as the campanella gimmick lends itself to a legato otherwise barely attainable on lutes--and for continuo playing, double reentrant tuning darn near eliminates any difficulty in maintaining at least unobjectionable voice-leading (parallel unisons don't chafe, parallel octaves do). In the interest of full disclosure, I mostly play on a tiny (I think the fingerboard strings are about 73cm) theorbo with double reentrant tuning. Yours, John Lenti Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:17:51 -0500 To: dwinh...@comcast.net CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: dlu...@verizon.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Straight Answer Please On Feb 23, 2009, at 5:27 PM, Daniel Winheld wrote: Wonderful! You are getting closer, grasshoppers. Ah, but do not forget, glasshoppah...stopped string lengths of low 80's make for toy dreams only. What does modern Western popular wisdom know about the power of objects? Has it ever heard the voice of a shamanic drum speaking? Sam Rizzetta once walked out of a jam session because he didn't like the sound of my bohdran. So it goes... David R dlu...@verizon.net -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Windows Live Hotmail(R):more than just e-mail. [1]Check it out. -- References 1. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_022009
[LUTE] Re: 4th course octave on 7c?
Hi Rob. Thanks! I'm not actually playing anything from the Pesaro ms--I make most of my living on continuo lutes and so I have for the time being only one rather beat-up 7-course that I use for all renaissance music. I'm preparing a concert including a bunch of mid-16th century French and Italian solo music, so I've got the 4th-course octave right now. The thing about Pesaro, compiled sometime in the 1480-90s, is that it has several lute pieces written on 7-line tablature, using all 7 lines, that is to say, all 7 courses. I too am a fan of the octave on the 4th--also of adding the odd 7th-course note to earlier music, since who's to say Francesco never saw one, given that they'd attached 7th courses to lutes by the late 15th century. Best, John Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 19:49:13 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4th course octave on 7c? CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Hi John, You should post more often. That was an interesting comment. John Dowland complaining...imagine that! Seriously though, it is interesting you are playing the Pesaro ms on a 7c - or, on re-reading your comment, you are considering it. I like the octave on the fourth and lament its abscence from almost all 7c lutes I've heard. Rob _ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: 4th course octave on 7c?
Long time reader, first time poster, with a 4th-course octave on my 7-course this week:I think that the Pesaro ms. (possibly Segovia; definitely one of the two) requires a 7th course. Being late 15th-century music, I'd imagine that would imply a 4th-course octave on a 7-course. Also, regarding the Italian/English octave/no octave notion, in the practical observations of the Varietie of Lute lessons, Dowland laments the fact that English lutenists have been so slow to adopt the continental fashion of stringing unisons, prefering instead octave stringing, which he finds terribly objectionable.Best,John Lenti Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft. _ Make every e-mail and IM count. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ MakeCount -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
