[LUTE] octave strings
Anyone tried this method of octave string placement? [1]https://www.thekremercollection.com/theodoor-rombouts/(press + to enlarge) -- References 1. https://www.thekremercollection.com/theodoor-rombouts/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
La Dirindina! That must be great fun. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 16:27 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, I really don't want to keep going over this same ground all the time - I do have other more pressing things to do (like writing out string parts for the first rehearsal of La Dirindina tomorrow)! But this is what I wrote earlier: 'So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger.' Whether you personally classify this as playing with or without nails is entirely up to you. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:58:18 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[4]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[5]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1][6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2][7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - Fro
[LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee
Thanks Martyn. Somehow including 'lute players' makes a difference, as now it is clear that it was not just about 'modern guitar players'. It's still a sensitive issue. Actually, I read all of your mail. I just wondered what your choice for no nails was based on. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 15:45 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, You don't seem to have been able to read all of my earlier PS email which, in fact, mentions my own practice - for what it's worth... Also I'm happy to clarify your query about modern players: 'Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar and lute players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way...'. regards Martyn On Friday, 10 May 2019, 14:34:59 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> To: 'Lute List' <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Lex Eisenhardt <[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt <[7]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesti
[LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee
A variety of modern guitar players? Hoppy, Nigel, Jose-Miguel and Paul? The historical sources mentioned by Rebours and Sweeny are roughly the same, and their inferences differ little indeed. Even if the alternative explanation of the anecdote is correct, it still does not prove that Corbetta did not use his nails. Do I understand it correctly that your choice to play without nails is based on the assumption that most (prominent) guitarists did not, and that that was normal practice? Or is it just a personal aesthetic choice? From what you say, I deduce that you also don't use nails on the theorbo. Although we have to be careful with it, I think that personal experience (and also taste) can make a valid contribution to the discussion about tone production. like it was back then too. If anything has become clear in recent times, it is that we must guard against considering a limited number (by definition) of sources as a comprehensive reflection of historical reality. We have the task of connecting the dots ourselves. In the 17th century there probably was little need to take into account the projection into the acoustics of even a medium-sized hall, because the guitar was hardly ever used there for solo performances. It is my experience that, also with nails, we get a much better tone control if we don't try to play loudly, by gently striking the strings. This certainly also applies to battuto (see Montesardo). To me, the available evidence is convincing that the guitar has been played both with and without nails. Also at that time similar arguments, pro and contra, were made. However, like Sweeny and Rebours agree, the benefits of the nails with regard to strumming are evident. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:22 Aan: Lute List Onderwerp: [LUTE] PS to Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Further to the below, I've now looked at the paper by Rebours. Much of it consists of simple assertion by a variety of modern guitar players giving their own personal preferences with the occasional early source mentioned. So not exactly overwhelming evidence for the historical practice - either way... So you know: my own practice on the period guitar is to have the RH nails just so long as to provide support to the 'nibble' end of the plucking finger. regards M. - Forwarded message - From: Martyn Hodgson To: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Friday, 10 May 2019, 09:09:24 BST Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or th
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Hi Martyn, Although not impossible, the text does not imply this. Ebert also notes: "with old folk these grow again very slowly." This does not seem to refer to a finger injury. Best wishes, Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: vrijdag 10 mei 2019 10:09 Aan: 'Lute List' ; Lex Eisenhardt Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Dear Lex, Well, are you referring to the report that said C couldn't play because he'd broken a nail? This might, of course, easily as well refer to a left hand nail which was broken (torn) down to the quick (ouch!) thus making playing impossible (too, too painful) or, indeed, the same thing on the right hand. Or is there some other report of which I'm unaware? regards M On Thursday, 9 May 2019, 13:53:01 BST, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: [1]Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Avec ou sans ongles ? (articlede G. Rebours) Article de G. Rebours sur le pour et le contre du jeu avec onglesà la guitare et au luth Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: [4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. [6]https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson <[7]maan7...@yahoo.com> wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson <[8]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1][9]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2][10]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃÆ Ã ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:[11]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[12]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References Visible links: 1. http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_
[LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta
Context matters, and this could indeed be a possible explanation of Ebert's addition to his text from 1723. But it seems clear that Corbetta had to pay his fellow musicians out of his own pocket first, regardless of whether he was subsequently compensated. So, if this were a myth, then at least it is based on a (rather ambiguous) historical report. Ebert: 'Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thaler.' Perhaps Madame Royale was kind enough to pay him his share. Strickly speaking, however, Corbetta's consort didn't perform there, and the story doesn't tell whether Corbetta received any compensation, in order to be able to pay them the lost income. What we don't know is whether this amount was intended to serve for the entire ensemble or whether it solely concerned his personal fee. In the first case he did not have too much to complain about. Except that he had crossed the Alps for nothing, and broke a nail. Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Monica Hall Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 09:58 Aan: r...@mh-freiburg.de; LuteList Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Corbetta Briefly - there were two editions of Ebert's book. In 1723 the account of Corbetta's visit ends Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything from Corbetta. The rest of it occurs in the edition of 1724 and implies that Corbetta paid off his musicians, but after he complained Madame re-imbursed him. His obituary in Mercure Galante specifically refers to Madame's kindness to him in his last years. You need to consider all of the texts carefully before jumping to conclusions. Monica > On 08 May 2019 at 20:13 Ralf Mattes wrote: > > > > Am Mittwoch, 08. Mai 2019 20:00 CEST, Monica Hall > schrieb: > > >The relevant passage reads as follows. Feel free to correct the > >translation. > > > >Recently the world-famous guitarist, Corbetta, who taught all the > >Potentates of Europe, came here [to Turin] from England. But because > >he had the misfortune to break a fingernail (and with old folk these > >grow again very slowly) it was impossible for him to present himself at > >the festival with his consort, however much he wanted to. Every > >foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. > >and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding > >anything from Signor Corbetta . > > > >Corbetta complained bitterly that he had come from England with great > >difficulty, > > In this case I'd translate "Schaden" with "expenses", but that's a detail. > > > and because he had invited people from Italy to come there > >[to Turin] to play in consort on his guarantee, he had to pay them > >afterwards out of his own pocket. > > That's what I wrote - he had to pay them out of his own pocket. > You claimed: "Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket > - that's just another myth." > > Cheers, RalfD > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
On the other side [of the nail], we know that Corbetta used them. The influence of his playing, on a whole generation of guitarists (perhaps also including Robert de Visee), can hardly be overestimated. Therefore, it seems likely that, also in France, some used their nails when playing from the books available. And Visee may have been well aware of that. There is an another interesting on-line article on the nail subject, written by Gerard Rebours: http://g.rebours.free.fr/6E/6.With_or_without_nails.html Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Martyn Hodgson Verzonden: donderdag 9 mei 2019 08:49 Aan: maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee That's not the point being made. Which is that, even if some theorbo players employed nails (or didn't), we cannot draw the unequivocal conclusion that the period guitar was therefore also played with nails. And, in particular, that this was the practice that De Visee generally expected and followed himself Richard Sweeney, who uses nails, gives a reasonably even-handed account from some early sources in his blog available by pasting this into your search. https://richardsweeney.com/the-best-way-of-play/ MH On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 14:35:21 BST, magnus andersson wrote: Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who explicitly played without fingernails? Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson : Hear! hear!. And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start Martyn On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - that's just another myth. The relevant source states that Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. Monica > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson <[1][2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear collective wisdom, >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been around >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, Corbetta >(who we know had >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still pay his >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Visà ©e had found >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing their >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: > >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and cleanly; In >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, like >pearl[s]" >/Magnus > -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Should be 1724...
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Lex
Eisenhardt
Verzonden: woensdag 8 mei 2019 11:43
Aan: 'LuteList'
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
The 'myth' is probably based on Ebert's Vermehrte Reise Beschreibung (1674):
https://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/id/PPN518447235?tify={%22pages%22:[311],%22view%22:%22info%22}
Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Yuval
Dvoran
Verzonden: woensdag 8 mei 2019 10:43
Aan: LuteList
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
I was always wondering where this story comes from - thank you Magnus!
By the way, you can buy the book here:
https://www.zvab.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=19245595719=hl%3Don%26tn%3Dauli%2Bapronii%2Bvermehrte%2Breise%26sortby%3D20%26an%3Debert
.and if that's to expensive, you can download it at the site of the SLUB:
https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/1501/1/
Am 08.05.2019 10:04 schrieb magnus andersson :
>
>Dear Monica, you re right-
>Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the
>evening. At
>the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques
> and
>guitars was
>heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the
>cake...
>Here is the original description written by Adam Ebert, in his
> travel
>diary:
>
> [1]https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6PpWcAAJ=de=GBS.P
> A
>251
>Best, Magnus
>
>On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 10:00:09 AM GMT+2, Monica Hall
> wrote:
>Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
>that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
>Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given
> 500
>Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
>withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
>Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy
> at
>the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
>We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
>Monica
>> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
><[2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Dear collective wisdom,
>>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
>around
>>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
>Corbetta
>>(who we know had
>>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
> pay
>his
>>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Vis
> e had
>found
>>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
>their
>>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>>
>>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
>cleanly; In
>>the manner that all small touches of the string may be
> schietto,
>like
>>pearl[s]"
>>/Magnus
>>
>>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>><[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
> good
>nail
>> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago?
> I
>would
>> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
> telescope
>>lenses
>> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails.
> The
>chamois
>> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not
> much
>better
>> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today
> among
>those
>>who
>> play with nails.
>> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
>><[1][1][4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>> wrote:
>> Hahahaha good point!
>> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
>remember
>> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
>years to
>> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb
> jslute
>> <[2][2][5]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>Dear All:
>>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
>build
>>lutes and
>>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way
>
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
The 'myth' is probably based on Ebert's Vermehrte Reise Beschreibung (1674):
https://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/id/PPN518447235?tify={%22pages%22:[311],%22view%22:%22info%22}
Lex
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Yuval
Dvoran
Verzonden: woensdag 8 mei 2019 10:43
Aan: LuteList
Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
I was always wondering where this story comes from - thank you Magnus!
By the way, you can buy the book here:
https://www.zvab.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=19245595719=hl%3Don%26tn%3Dauli%2Bapronii%2Bvermehrte%2Breise%26sortby%3D20%26an%3Debert
.and if that's to expensive, you can download it at the site of the SLUB:
https://digital.slub-dresden.de/werkansicht/dlf/1501/1/
Am 08.05.2019 10:04 schrieb magnus andersson :
>
>Dear Monica, you re right-
>Francesco seems to have been the scheduled star musician of the
>evening. At
>the banquet, an ensemble consisting of lutes, theorboes, angeliques
> and
>guitars was
>heard, and Francesco was probably thought of as the icing on the
>cake...
>Here is the original description written by Adam Ebert, in his
> travel
>diary:
>
> [1]https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=6PpWcAAJ=de=GBS.P
> A
>251
>Best, Magnus
>
>On Wednesday, May 8, 2019, 10:00:09 AM GMT+2, Monica Hall
> wrote:
>Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket -
>that's just another myth. The relevant source states that
>Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given
> 500
>Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not
>withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta].
>Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy
> at
>the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform.
>We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails.
>Monica
>> On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson
><[2]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Dear collective wisdom,
>>From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been
>around
>>since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini,
>Corbetta
>>(who we know had
>>to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still
> pay
>his
>>fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de Vis
> e had
>found
>>a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing
>their
>>strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini:
>>
>>"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and
>cleanly; In
>>the manner that all small touches of the string may be
> schietto,
>like
>>pearl[s]"
>>/Magnus
>>
>>On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly
>><[3]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote:
>> Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document
> good
>nail
>> polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago?
> I
>would
>> love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from
> telescope
>>lenses
>> and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails.
> The
>chamois
>> stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not
> much
>better
>> in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today
> among
>those
>>who
>> play with nails.
>> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> On May 7, 2019, at 4:48 AM, Yuval Dvoran
>><[1][1][4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>
>> wrote:
>> Hahahaha good point!
>> To add something substantial to the discussion, I'd like to
>remember
>> you that also plants exist which were used for thousands of
>years to
>> polish wood (and maybe also fingernails), e.g. Equisetum
>> ("Schachtelhalm" in German).Am 07.05.2019 13:31 schrieb
> jslute
>> <[2][2][5]jsl...@cs.dartmouth.edu>:
>>Dear All:
>>Might I suggest that a culture sophisticated enough to
>build
>>lutes and
>>craft overwound strings could have figured out a way
> to
>file
>>and
>>polish
>>their nails.
>>Jim Stimson
>>Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>> Original message
>>From: John Mardinly <[3][3][6]john.mardi...@asu.edu>
>>Date: 5/6/19 6:51 PM (GMT-05:00)
>>To: Roland Hayes <[4][4][7]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
>>Cc: Lute List <[5][5][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee
>>More lacking than glue-on-nails might have been some
> of
>the
>>modern
>>files and abrasives used to polish the
[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Almost no nails? L Van: Roland Hayes [[1]mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org] Verzonden: woensdag 6 maart 2019 21:02 Aan: lex.eisenhardt <[2]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Onderwerp: Re: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky I would add "almost" Get [3]Outlook for Android _ From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of lex.eisenhardt <[6]lex.eisenha...@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 2:37:05 PM To: Ron Andrico; Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky No nails? On the theorbo? Lex Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. Oorspronkelijk bericht Van: Ron Andrico <[7]praelu...@hotmail.com> Datum: 06-03-19 20:30 (GMT+01:00) Aan: Lute List <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Thank you Martyn. It's about time we all sorted out this popular misconception. I have encountered several classical guitarists who still think their right hand position must be completely altered to play lute, and it's a surprise to them when I say that their hand position is probably optimal for baroque lute and theorbo - perhaps minus the nails. RA __ From: [9]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[10]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Martyn Hodgson <[11]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 3:55 PM To: Lute List; Ron Andrico Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Indeed. I well recall Eph Segerman remarking several years ago that the obsession with thumb-under was, and for many remains, an attempt by some modern lutenists to distance themselves from the hated classical guitar which, ironically, many had started out on! As you say Ron, the evidence is very clear MH On Wednesday, 6 March 2019, 13:08:10 GMT, Ron Andrico <[12]praelu...@hotmail.com> wrote: Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless, music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the thumb out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments. Isn't it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual historical examples? __ From: [1][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[2][14]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Martin Shepherd <[3][15]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Dear All, Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it all the time. The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r) all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula (end of system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index. I'm sure there are
[LUTE] Re: Campanelle
Slightly changed, hopefully improved⦠[1]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf Van: Lex Eisenhardt [mailto:lex.eisenha...@gmail.com] Verzonden: woensdag 24 januari 2018 23:25 Aan: 'lute@cs.dartmouth.edu' Onderwerp: Campanelle Today I uploaded a new paper: [2]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf Lex -- References 1. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf 2. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Campanelle
Today I uploaded a new paper: [1]http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf Lex -- References 1. http://www.lexeisenhardt.com/file/Campanelle.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Archive files
Perhaps this is what you're looking for https://www.mail-archive.com/vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu/msg01314.html ? Lex -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Namens Ralf Mattes Verzonden: dinsdag 18 oktober 2016 19:19 Aan: Ralf Mattes CC: mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Onderwerp: Re: Fwd: Re: Re: Archive files Just some more info : the archive webpages will only go back to 2008 but the search will return results from earlier messages, Just type something into the basic search field (i,e. "2005"). On the result page you'll find a link to "advanced search" - there you can restrict your search to a time period. HTH RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] new article
I uploaded a new article: [1]http://lexeisenhardt.com/file/A_String_of_Confusion.pdf Lex -- References 1. http://lexeisenhardt.com/file/A_String_of_Confusion.pdf To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: Baroque Guitar technique
Monica Hall wrote: Double octave stringing is mostly suitable only for strumming as Sanz says. Gaspar Sanz: For those who wish to use the guitar to play noisy music, or to accompany the bass of a tono [a vocal work] or sonada, the guitar is better strung with bourdons than without them His examples of basso continuo in tablature are completely without strumming. And there is a tendency to overdo the vigorous strumming anyway. One of the other problems with using octave stringing in music like Roncalli's is that it creates an imbalence between the strummed chords and the counterpoint. You have thin sounding passage work punctuated by thumping 5-part chords - and no reall bass line. The balance depends fully on the technical abilities of the player, not on octave strings. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: another day at the office
It is not about adding just another colour. By the percussive rhythm of a guitar (with an effect almost like a snare drum, caused by excessive forceful strumming) the whole character of the music can change. Therefore it would be good to be well informed about the existence of such a practice. The whole discussion is pervaded by ideas about how the guitar was used in the alfabeto era. Today it is often (implicitly) compared to flamenco. Yet, the character of the repertoire of flamenco cantes (to which the percussive style of rasgueado really belongs) is very different from the pastoral villanelle from Italy. These are much more related to the romances from 16c Spain, a repertoire with a gentle touch of melancholy. The guitar has the prime task to provide good harmony, to support the voice in the expression of the poetry. Perhaps it could even be better compared to how Jazz guitarists strum an accompaniment to a ballad. It could well be that the use of the guitar was confined to certain genres of song and dance. Even if there are included ostinato themes like the ciaccona in certain stage works of Monteverdi, this does not say that, within the frame of thought of the rappresentativo style, such references should lead to a literal reproduction of the situation it refers to (of which guitar strumming in a pastoral environment forms part). Imitation with other means sometimes works even stronger. As Montesardo remarked in 1606: To have an elegant hand on the guitar, it is needed to hold it relaxed and strike the strings gently with three or four fingers in the manner of an arpeggio, not all at once, which would create a great noise and sound crude, which is very annoying to the ear. In the battuto-pizzicato solo repertoire strumming is applied over any number of strings, and sometimes it is used for two- or three part textures or even single notes. Meanwhile, it seems that the modern idea of rhythm guitar has affected the performance on the theorbo as well, since more and more that instrument is used for strumming. It would be interesting to find out on what historic information (apart from comparing it to the guitar...) that is based. Today there is a fashion for making an orchestral instrumentation with many different instruments that were there. Maybe the question should rather be if there is any evidence in descriptions, scores or iconography of the guitar participating in the continuo body, as it exists in abundance for the theorbo and the lute. It is true that in many song collections there is alfabeto included, next to a bass line, which could be understood as an indication that the guitar strummed along with the theorbo or harpsichord. Having looked in a number of these books it turns out that there are very often conflicts between the guitar part and the bass (and even sometimes with the melody). It seems as if the harmonic language of alfabeto (the choice of harmonies) was essentially different from (not necessarily always inferior to) the official versions as represented in the bass. It is not self-evident that guitarists were able to read their chords from the bass (which they actually did not play). It is telling that there seem to exist no (or very few) examples of basso continuo with alfabeto written in. Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] enough
reasons to quit the list again -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC
Two days ago I posted this message to the VIHUELA list. With a CC to the LUTE. I think it got lost in cyberspace. Probably because of the CC Monica Hall wrote: The short answer to that is that what has survived in print is only a tip of the iceberg. And what is printed commercially reflects the economic situation at the time and place. Italy was apparently in economic decline in the second half of the 17th century. Also it may have been that the kind of songs which are included in these books had gone out of fashion rather than the manner of accompanying them. Surely this same is true of the songs which don't have alfabeto? Economic situation yes, but the fact that almost no new material came out is telling. And indeed, the genre of self accompanied canzonette seems to have disappeared. Together with that, alfabeto probably has lost much of its attraction. The exercises in the books by Corbetta et al include examples showing which alfabeto chords match the the notes of the bass part e.g. The Regola per sonar sopra la parte on p.70 on Corbetta's are surely intended to help the player devise a strummed accompaniment. It is also self-evident that the accompaniments to the vocal pieces in Corbetta's Guitarre royale of 1671 are intended to be mostly strummed. Why else should he put the note values on the stave rather than above it? The same is true of Matteis - the first lesson which Schollars ought to learn by heart - simply the standard chords and some of his accompaniments and exercises are mostly strummed. that on p.23 for example. I did not mean to say that the accompaniment of Matteis (and others) is without strumming. The idea is that once we refrain from playing battuto the guitar is much lower in volume and no longer a very practical companion in an instrumental ensemble. However, some players may have been able to realize an accompaniment, departing from the bass (and losing considerably in volume, while plucking part of the harmonies). Of course but that doesn't mean that they didn't vary the kind of accompaniment which they provided. Matteis' manual is full of variation. But no all-battuto examples (even not the one on p. 23). I have been searching rather diligently for evidence for such a practice but no examples of purely strummed realization of figured bass from France or England come to mind. I do not consider Scaramouche, dancing with his guitar on the stage, as an example of BC. Note that he suggests that it should be used with the bass viol amongst other things. Yes. It is 'his present design to make it company for other instruments'. With many plucked chords. Is there anything to confirm that this has lead to success? That is the point - the guitar is more suitable for accompanying the voice or in small groups. I would agree with Martin today that the guitar is often added to the continuo groups inappropriately. And that is indeed a sort of an answer to my question: in how far does historical information support the modern practice of including the guitar (and all-battuto performance) in all different kinds of music? Murcia wasn't printed until 1714. The point is that they didn't need to include instructions on how to strum an accompaniment. Spaniards didn't need this kind of instruction. Their objective was something different. There are large numbers of manuscripts with Castilian or Catalan cifras. Yes, the situation in Spain may have been different. Yet, for ensemble performance Sanz and de Murcia considered it necessary to learn to play a proper BC from a figured bass. In the Marin songs there is no strumming at all. Is there information about purely strummed accompaniment (from cifras or alfabeto) that was used in Spain in instrumental ensembles? I'm not so sure that Spaniards didn't need instructions on strumming an accompaniment. As we can learn from the many defective harmonies in Italian alfabeto songs, finding good harmonies in a composed repertoire (as opposed to the stock dance genres of the ruggiero, canario or ciaccona) was not everybody's skill. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC
..and another... The exercises in the books by Corbetta et al include examples showing which alfabeto chords match the the notes of the bass part e.g. The Regola per sonar sopra la parte on p.70 on Corbetta's are surely intended to help the player devise a strummed accompaniment. This type of rule of thumb already appeared in the earliest alfabeto songbooks. Application of these rules leads in many occasions to completely wrong harmonies. Of course Corbetta knew that, and in the following pages (you were probably speaking of his book from 1643 ?) he has given a lot more cadences, based on the figures of the bass. For that he had to step outside the rigid system of alfabeto and start plucking. Others (earlier figures) like Biagio Marini, Domenico Obizzi and Pietro Millioni have used alfabeto in a more sensible way, often just ignoring the line of the bass. That has resulted in a fine, guitaristic version of early continuo. Already in 1981 Robert Strizich has pointed at harmonic conflicts between the alfabeto harmonies and the top melody, in songs of Kapsberger. This is by no means an isolated case. It is also self-evident that the accompaniments to the vocal pieces in Corbetta's Guitarre royale of 1671 are intended to be mostly strummed. Why else should he put the note values on the stave rather than above it? Mostly strummed indeed, but not all. As far as the available sources seem to imply, Corbetta's accompaniments have not become standard procedure. With Grenerin and Matteis (as well as Sanz and de Murcia) there are considerably fewer battuto chords. In plucked harmonies the chord position--and with that the position of the bass--is much more an issue. These composers have made an attempt to use the guitar for a real basso continuo, whereas in La Guitarre royalle Corbetta is still somewhere halfway the early battuto practice. Diligently as ever, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tablature, alfabeto and BC
Related to this: are you aware if any lists of players at the 17thC/early 18thC Italian Opera Houses listing theorbos, harpsichords players also showing guitarists.? Martyn The theorbist can also play the guitar. Normally not at the same time... Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [Viols] cello - Italian
small lute-shaped instruments (like in Kircher), that probably had the interval of a fifth. Don't you mean intervals of a third and fourth respectively? As I understand it, it is supposed that the mandora in Kircher (as in Praetorius) is a chitarra Italiana. With Kircher the tuning of the 4th and 3rd courses is a fifth apart (like in the temple viejo of Bermudo's four course guitar). Conserto vago possibly asks for a re-entrant tuning (as in Cerreto) of the fourth course. Still the two courses are a (inverted-) fifth apart. Renato Meucci doesn't mention Millioni () but he supposes that the old tuning was replaced on the newly introduced mandola by a tuning in fifths (Kircher gives 5-4-5 as an option). I think that if we wish to define instruments it is not just the picture that counts, but also the tuning. The above tunings (of Cerreto and Conserto vago) don't match with Millioni's chitarra Italiana of 1631. It raises doubt about the instrument. We can only guess what the shape of his 4-course 'chitarrino' was. Now it is supposed that there has been a soprano (chitarrino) and a bass (chitarrone). Meucci shows one anonymous painting of a player with an instrument that looks like a four course lute, which he thinks may be a 'chitarra comune'. The problem with these instruments is that there seems to be no repertoire left at all. They probably have not been too successful. From the research of Lynda Sayce I understand that the chitarrone started as a modified (bass) lute. The interesting thing is that iconography suggests that some chitarrini may have had single strings, like the chitarrone/tiorba sometimes had. I wonder if the fact that 'chitarrone' means 'large chitarra' could have anything to do with that. Considering how instruments are built however the chitarrone could well be a descendant of the lute. And of course there is the link with ancient mythology. Maybe the chitarrone is indeed a 'big kithara', rather than a 'big chitarra' (or 'big kuitra')? L. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [Viols] cello - Italian
Maybe the chitarrone is indeed a 'big kithara', rather than a 'big chitarra' (or 'big kuitra')? Chitarrone is the decendant of both, because they are the one, a decendant of Roman era lutes. RT In wikipedia it reads: 'It is important to note that- although theorbo and chitarrone are virtually identical, they have different evolutionary origins, the chitarrone being a descendant of chitarra italiana (hence its name).' Makes you wonder who the author thinks that the ancestors of the theorbo were. Maybe better to admit it is speculation. Like they sometimes say: 'even a bastard has only one father' Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [Viols] cello - Italian
There is also such thing as evolutionary convergence. A hornet-fly has developed the look of a real hornet, to avoid getting eaten. Ditto theorbo. RT There is one essential difference. Evolution only works with living creatures. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [Viols] cello - Italian
So violone is a big viola, as chitarrone is a big (ancient Greek) cithara, Actually not. Chitarrone is a big CHITARRA ITALIANA. Any idea what that might be? In Millioni 1631 it reads: Chi volesse ancor'imparare à far le lettere per sonar' il Chitarrino, overo Chitarra Italiana per via di numeri, e linee, si servi delli medesimi numeri, e linee, lasciando però la quinta corda, osservi la medesima regola. 'If you wish to use the letters [of the alfabeto] to sound the chitarrino, or the chitarra Italiana, by numbers and lines [of his tablature examples of alfabeto chords], you can use the same numbers and lines and leave out the fifth course keep the same rules.' This is Millioni's way to say that we can play from alfabeto on the chitarra Italiana by omitting all that is on the fifth string. So this instrument must have had a guitar tuning, with an interval of a fourth between the 4th and 3rd course, unlike the one in 'conserto vago' or other small lute-shaped instruments (like in Kircher), that probably had the interval of a fifth. I've read Renato Meucci's article on the chitarra Italiana, but Millioni leaves me in doubt. Would he have meant a four-course instrument with the shape of a lute and the tuning of a guitar? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [Viols] cello - Italian
Like I said, I've read Meucci's article. The trouble is that iconography doesn't say 'this is a chitarra Italiana'. Surely it does. A 3-4course lute-shaped axe that looks like KUITRA looks pretty obvious to me. RT It seems no more than a guess that this was the instrument that Millioni had in mind. The chitarrino overo chitarra Italiana, in guitar tuning. I also think that is likely that there were lute-shaped instruments that were sometimes called chitarra or chitarra Italiana or -Napoletana. The question is if this title was used sometimes for other four-course (guitar shaped and differently tuned) instruments as well. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana Tan que vivray
Peter 1. If this French or Spanish. It looks hybrid. You could look at: http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Tant_que_vivray_(Claudin_de_Sermisy) The composer is Claudin de Sermisy, words in French but spelling hispanized. 2. Is the symbol that looks like a Greek eta (or an n with and extended right leg) a sign that indicates that the lyrics are to be repeated? Not an eta but 'ij' (two) which means: again. 3. If so, how do I know from where? If you read from the CDrom 'Libros de musica para vihuela' you'll find the notes for the singer in red. It is possible to understand which line has to be repeated. 4. Sometimes the words are close to the notes to which they seem to belong, but sometimes they don't seem to fit. And the answer on this question is also in the red ciphers. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Unmarried strung archlutes
...They were not classical guitarists dressed up like lute players. Hey, I resemble that remark! ...other than the fact that my lute-like things are double strung. Not to mention lute players dressed up like baroque guitarists... L. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Why re-entrant tuning?
Hi Richard, List The issue of the re-entrant tuning on a guitar is a very different subject. First it has noting to do with string length, and second it has nothing to do with bass lines...as has been pointed out it has all to do with campanella passages. The initial question (as I understood it) was: why was it developed ? I doubt if the origin of the re-entrant tuning of the 4-course or 5-course (??) guitar in the 16th century had anything to do with campanela playing. There is no music left to show us. I hold to my speculations about the open air and the ukelele (with due respect). But what constitutes re-entrant on a guitar? only the 5th course up? the 5th the 4th up? octaves only on the 4th? octaves on 4 5? (which Sanz states is the norm in Spain.is the only tuning ever designated in Spanish sourcesand is called for in many Italian sources with campanella passages.?) Ahhh more food for thought Indeed. Who's hungry enough to give it a bite? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Why re-entrant tuning?
Hi, I suppose that the origins of the re-entrant tunings may be different for theorbo and guitar. There are people on this list who can explain in detail about quest for an optimal instrument for accompaniment of the voice in the early opera (Naldi, Piccinini). Greater stringlength on the chitarrone was necessary and therefore the first and second course had to be lowered. For the guitar I see an entirely different cause: like the ukelele the instrument needed to be heard in the open air (imagine Spain or the New World). By having as many strings in the alto register as possible the guitar became louder in rasgado style playing. Lower strings at the basses, in combination with the relatively short scale, were not too useful. Much later some composers started to use the high notes that are available on the 4th and 5th courses in treble melody lines. L. - Original Message - From: Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Why re-entrant tuning? Dear Collective Wisdom, The subject says it all. Re-entrant tuning is used on the theorbo and if I recall the gittern. But why? I have not played an instrument tuned this way so don't have any practical experience with the sound or feel. Why are these (and presumabley other) instruments tuned this way? Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Christ's Cross
Thank you, Caroline. Allow me to me rederect this message to the good list of the Vihuela-People. Q: Were there such 'books' in other countries/ for other languages as well? For Italian or Spanish? L. At 04:30 AM 4/6/2006, Ed Durbrow wrote: On Apr 6, 2006, at 5:05 AM, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: What I don't understand is why Alfabeto would need another chord before the A, and why that should be E minor. Most people in Europe at that time were heavy duty Christians and so they deemed that it was right and proper to begin with the cross. That is why it is first. Sort of, but there's an intermediate step. Children learned their letters from a hornbook http://www.iupui.edu/~engwft/hornbook.html which had the letters of the alphabet and the Lord's Prayer. Early hornbooks always had a cross at the beginning of the alphabet. Typically hornbooks were a wooden paddle with a printed sheet fixed to it and covered by a transparent piece of horn, whence the name. Easy for kids to hold with and protected from their sticky little hands. At some point in late Antiquity/the early Middle Ages knowledge of reading and writing in the west passed into the hands of the Church. At the end of the Roman Empire the government relied more and more on the Church infrastructure to handle the bureaucracy. This was an outgrowth of the Church's social service mission, which had been an important aspect from the earliest days. (St. Lawrence, when ordered by a pagan judge to produce the treasure of the Church for confiscation, brought the widows and orphans and destitute to court, saying These are the treasure of the Church. The judge was not amused.) In addition, the majority of the population of western Europe was composed of barbarian peoples such as Gauls, Britons, Goths, Visigoths, Vandals, Alemanni, Helvetii et al. whose traditions were oral and tribal. Christianity, a religion of the book, preserved literacy as the administrative and educational system of ancient Rome and Greece withered. Thus clerics became clerks and monasteries became the asylums of learning; often the parish or secular (out in the world as opposed to cloistered) clergy had little or no learning. In this way the role of teaching reading and writing came into the hands of the Church where it remained for a thousand years or more. As literacy became more common children learned their first letters in the parish school from the parish priest, along with the catechism. And the alphabet always started with a cross. The paperback Penguin Atlas historical series is a wonderful and inexpensive way to get a grip on the major trends and conflicts of European history from antiquity to the present. And the author Colin McEvedy has quite a wicked wit! The reason the choose Em is: no reason, just perhaps that it is one of the easiest and most used chords. No logic in any of the alfabeto names that I can see. The logic is to start with the easiest chords and get folks playing I-IV-V-I as quickly as possible. I think they should have done like Phoebe on Friends, she had funny names for the few chords she knew on guitar. I forget what they were but they were kind of funny. Hmmm, I like this idea! Could also use it for chord shapes that can be moved up and down the neck. Caroline To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mean tone temperament
Carbonchi's 'Lo dodici chitarre spostate' from 1643 (Florence) comes to mind. Imagine to strum a passacaglia with twelve guitars, all tuned one semitone apart with 12 different alfabeto chords at the same time. Comes close to 'garage revival rock'. But meantone? Best, L. Although Colonna's 25 little Passacalli are not quite a full complement of major and minor keys, they are pretty close to being so. They are followed by more Passacalli, where chords involving moveable shapes are used. It would seem that Colonna's aim is not so much to exploit the subtle differences arising from varying degrees of out-of-tune-ness, but rather to get the student guitarist to become familiar with all the alfabeto symbols. With this range of keys, I cannot imagine anything other than equal temperament being appropriate. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 11:57 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mean tone temperament Stewart McCoy wrote: I can think of quite a bit of baroque guitar music which explores remote keys, and where equal temperament would have to be the order of the day. But it would not *have* to be anything of the sort, unless you assume that a composer writing in F-sharp major expected it to sound like C major a tritone higher. Some 17th-century keyboard pieces wander into distant keys, and no one who has looked into it suggests that this meant the keyboard was tempered equally. The natural assumption is that the explorations into keys outside the normal ones were supposed to sound weird and outlandish (indeed, weird and outlandish mean beyond familiar territory), making the return to comfortable C or G more pronounced and even dramatic. The urge to tame the distant keys by making the normal keys less in tune has a lot to do with 20th-century listening habits. HP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lautenwerck
I just bought a cd (2 euros) by Gergely Sarkozy playing Bach on Lautenwerck. Interesting, not bad playing, but nylon and brass strung! |-( I thought the whole point of a Lautenwerck was the gut stringing. Luckily the same shop had Nigel North playing Bach for 3 euro, Hopefully on an all gut-strung lute?? so my afternoon shopping was not entirely wasted. David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Casanova
Francesco Casanova da Milano? - Original Message - From: Patrick H [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Casanova Has anyone seen Casanova yet? There are many lutes in the movie and the soundtrack. I was wondering if anyone knew who played the lute parts? Patrick Imagination without skill gives us modern art. - Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
You also might try Thomas Walker's (1968) 'Ciaccona and Passacaglia: Remarks on their Origin and Early History', JAMS 21/3 L. Fossum, Arthur wrote: I will try to track down Richard Hudson's studies( thanks Antonio) -Arthur -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Delphin gut
Has anyone noticed that both Luis de Narvaez and Charles Mouton were active in the same watersports? They are both pictured (or was it a plucker from Greece?) on the back of a large fish, presumably a delfin. cheers, L. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Delphin gut 2
Dear Stewart, Thanks for your enlightning answer. I could indeed have formulated the question in a more serious way. For us (the rest of the world) it is hard to be funny (deliberately) in English. I am willing to learn more about those fishy mammals. (I am doing research for an article in 'Lute Whale') 1) are there more pictures around with people playing lute or vihuela (or guitar), seated on the back of a delfin? 2) I think I see similarities in the posture and anatomy of both players, e.g. right arm and leg. 3) the head and tail of the delfins are similar. (The tail could easily belong to the monster of Loch Ness) any comments? Best wishes, Lex Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Lex, Sorry to give you such a flippant reply to what was a serious question. Let's start again. For those unfamiliar with the tale of Arion and the Dolphin, the following site gives an easy-to-read account: http://www.thanasis.com/arion.htm Arion is a well-known figure from classical mythology, so it is not surprising that he should be found decorating the title pages of several books. I did a Google search for Arion + Dolphin + book + title page and found no end of books, where Arion can be found, e.g. http://www.bloomsbury-book-auct.com/html/505/ You could argue that, with so many books referring to Arion, it is not surprising that Narvaez's and Mouton's title pages should do likewise. After all, Arion was a musician, and a player of a stringed instrument to boot. Having looked closely at Narvaez and Mouton's title pages, I have to confess that there are some similarities: 1) both Arions have capes; 2) there are sailing ships in the sea behind Arion; 3) there are mountains on the horizon, in particular one mountain to the right of each picture; I notice that the engraver has signed his name to the bottom left of the Mouton picture, although it is too faint for me to read. Do we know anything about him? Did he use a similar picture for other unrelated books? It is certainly an interesting thought that Mouton's title page may have been influenced by Narvaez's, but with Arion and Orpheus being such important mythological characters, frequently referred to in musical contexts in the 16th and 17th centuries, I think one would need a little bit more evidence to make a positive link between the two title pages. Stemmatically speaking, if there is a connection, there could be a direct link (Mouton had a copy of Narvaez's book), or both title pages were copied independently from a common source (Narvaez and Mouton each owned a copy of the same book published before 1538). Those are my initial thoughts, but I would be very interested to hear what others may have to say on your intriguing observation. Best wishes, Stewart. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: To strum or not to strum
There is much information on guitar accompaniment in the instructions in the books by Corbetta (1643, 1648 ans 1671) and Granata (1659). And later Grenerin and Matteis. The problem is that much of the Alfabeto song repertoire is from decades earlier. It is best probably to see how Foscarini (=early...) worked with the combination of strumming and plucking. Or Corbetta, in 1639. Note that of the Alfabeto information in all those books with Arias is exclusively left hand. In general, dance like rhythms are better of strummed, while recitativo or slower movement is better accompanied with arpeggio. It is possible to follow bass lines, even as a part of the strum (bourdon tuning!) but it gets problematic with G chords, that inevitably will become 6 chords. best wishes, Lex James A Stimson wrote: Dear Craig and All: If you look to contemporary guitar solos for models of accompaniment (i.e., Corbetta, Sanz, Bartelotti), you'll find a mix of strumming and plucking. The guitar was meant to be strummed, so I would say don't feel reluctant to strum a big chord if the music seems to call for it. The singer probably will get more rhythmic guidance from a nice big chord than dainty plucking. Yours, Jim Craig Wiggins [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] et cc: Subject: To strum or not to strum 03/21/2004 10:23 PM Dear friends, Is it a good idea to mix plucked and strummed styles when accompanying a singer on the Baroque guitar? I recently recorded Caccini's Amarilli mia bella and decided for a change of timbre to use the Baroque guitar. When working out a realization, I found myself constantly wavering between wanting to strum and the desire to provide more counterpoint through plucking. What I ended up with was mostly plucking, but with strummed chords at emphatic points. Any thoughts on historical practice in this regard? Thanks for any input. __ Craig Wiggins 1570 Ivy Rd. Memphis, TN 38117-6724 Ph: (901)683-0428 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a new mail list filter
Thank you Wayne, your work is highly appreciated! L. - Original Message - From: Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 10:42 PM Subject: a new mail list filter Hi Everyone - I have just installed a new filter into the lute list mechanism. When someone posts a message to the list, the robot looks to see if the mail address that the message is From: is the same, or close to, an address on the list. This way random people are prevented from posting messages which are totally inappropriate, which is good. However, it will also block some valid posters If you signed up to the lute list with a handle of [EMAIL PROTECTED] two years ago, and last year you changed your handle to [EMAIL PROTECTED] the robot will not recognise you. You will have to arrange with me to make both addresses the same. And if you get your lute messages sent to your home address of [EMAIL PROTECTED] but you like to post from your work address of [EMAIL PROTECTED] the robot will not recognise you either. You will have to post from your home account. The robot does have a small amount of intelligence. If you are on the list as [EMAIL PROTECTED] but you post from [EMAIL PROTECTED] the robot will recognise. but if you post from [EMAIL PROTECTED] the robot won't recognise you. You are allowed to post from a different computer, the first name after the @ sign, but the rest must be the same. I imagine some people will have trouble because of this, and I plan to fine tune the program as I go along. I will check the messages that get caught and notify the sender. Once again, I apologise for the hassle this will cause, but I have to take stronger stepas against unwanted messages. Wayne
Re: foreign accents
alt+0128 that is, L
Re: John Cage on Lute
Would this piece need much practise? I consider to start my next recital with it. L. Dear Michael, It is possible that John Cage achieved something as a composer, but, if he did, it has escaped me. Cutting strings, performing in silence, and all those other sad gimmicks are utterly abhorrent. No doubt he is making some clever, meaningful point, as purport the forlorn heaps of modern art junk which clutter the Tate Gallery in London, but I hate it. It is anti-music, anti-art, anti-culture, anti-everything to which genuine musicians aspire, and as such, it is thoroughly worthless. Best wishes, Stewart.
