[LUTE] Re: Matthew Locke
Those might be the suites where it says 'theorbo' in the continuo parts Locke's music with theorbo as part of the thorough bass section is listet separately. Those two single movements and the suite are listet as lute music, distinctively. Unfortunately, no sources are given. The English wiki on MLocke does not list his works. So ... anyone? Mathias On Sunday, December 21, 2014, Mathias RAP:sel [1]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Dear Collected Wisdom, The German Wiki about Matthew Locke lists two movements (courante, sarabande) and an entire suite in C major for the lute. Does somebody know where to find those works? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quote - Sage advice
...music that's good for you. I love it.A Thanks, Ron. Best to all, Chris. wholeheartedly seconded! Mathias On Sat, Aug 30, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Ron Andrico [1]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: A A We have posted our Saturday morning quote, Sage advice. A A [1][2]http://wp.me/p15OyV-13k A A Ron Donna A A -- References A A 1. [3]http://wp.me/p15OyV-13k To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. http://wp.me/p15OyV-13k 3. http://wp.me/p15OyV-13k 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [Fronimo_editor] Font for German tab
F6, then choose fonts for tablature. Mathias -Original Message- Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:40:10 +0200 Subject: [Fronimo_editor] Font for German tab From: Arne Keller arnekelle...@yahoo.com To: fronimo_edi...@yahoogroups.com I noticed in Matthias' note to Catherine on May 30. 2011, that a Gothic or Fraktur-font would be necessary to enter German characters. I pressed F8, but no such fonts. Where can I get such a one? And where to put it? Confused, Arne. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Henry Purcell for renaissance lute?
There are ten pieces for the 10c lute (or Archlute) available from TREE edition, intabulated by Jonathan Rubin. And I seem to remember that Lynda Sayce intabulated a whole suite by Purcell for the archlute. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von lute...@aol.com Gesendet: Montag, 1. August 2011 10:14 An: mikael.forsb...@prv.se Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Henry Purcell for renaissance lute? Actual editions, no, but I'll forward this to the baroque lute discussion group. - Chris Goodwin In a message dated 01/08/2011 07:56:33 GMT Daylight Time, mikael.forsb...@prv.se writes: Hi Chris! Do you know any editions for R-lute (beginner) by Henry Purcell? __ Mikael Forsberg Swedish Patent and Registration Office P.O. Box 5055 102 42 Stockholm Sweden Visitors: Valhallavaegen 136 Phone + 46 8 7822500, direct + 46 8-782 2878 E-mail: mikael.forsb...@prv.se -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Found a concordance in Mace!
Well ... here you are: http://www.youtube.com/user/aluardy (pls have mercy) Mathias why wouldn't you play the Flat Tuning version of this piece by Mace to the y-tube by your new 12-courser? It is in the page 189. It would be highly interesting to hear the translation - as he calls it - by Mace! On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 10:51:50 +0300, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: Dear lutenists, I happened to find a concordance in Mace' book. The piece he uses as an example how to translate a piece from the New Tuning (the d-minor) to his preferred Flat Tuning, in page 188, is a Saraband by Jean Mercure! The piece can be found in several mss., for ex. in Milleran f. 22v. Perhaps this is already generally known, perhaps not? I just was checking the Mace' pieces in the New Tuning, and found something familiar... And yes, I have even tubed the Milleran version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTZKpXIx1Dg Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel Pastor Mathias Rösel Bgm.-Smidt-Str. 45a 27568 Bremerhaven Tel.: 0471 9292 8728 Fax: 0322 2371 1583
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Found a concordance in Mace!
Shouldn't make videos in the morning without having warmed up a bit ... I replaced the Allmaine and Galliard videos. And I added the suite in G major (Allmaine, Ayre, Coranto, Seraband, Tattle de moy). I like it for its cheerfulness. Please find them at the aforementioned place: http://www.youtube.com/user/aluardy Enjoy! Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Mathias Roesel Gesendet: Donnerstag, 28. Juli 2011 14:24 An: baroque-lute mailing-list Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Found a concordance in Mace! Well ... here you are: http://www.youtube.com/user/aluardy (pls have mercy) Mathias why wouldn't you play the Flat Tuning version of this piece by Mace to the y-tube by your new 12-courser? It is in the page 189. It would be highly interesting to hear the translation - as he calls it - by Mace! On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 10:51:50 +0300, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: Dear lutenists, I happened to find a concordance in Mace' book. The piece he uses as an example how to translate a piece from the New Tuning (the d-minor) to his preferred Flat Tuning, in page 188, is a Saraband by Jean Mercure! The piece can be found in several mss., for ex. in Milleran f. 22v. Perhaps this is already generally known, perhaps not? I just was checking the Mace' pieces in the New Tuning, and found something familiar... And yes, I have even tubed the Milleran version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTZKpXIx1Dg Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel Pastor Mathias Rösel Bgm.-Smidt-Str. 45a 27568 Bremerhaven Tel.: 0471 9292 8728 Fax: 0322 2371 1583
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Found a concordance in Mace!
Thank you, Arto! The Mace tuning is not Mace's own, BTW. There are five part books with lute ensemble music in the Bodleian library (E 410-414), of which the lute part (E 411) requires this very tuning. According to Goy / Schlegel, the part books date from ca. 1660. Mace gives no mensur of his lute IIRC, so his pitch is nominal. From the keys of each prelude, it is clear that his lute tuning is g'-e'-c'-a-e-B-AGFEDC. On p. 188 he writes that the given piece for the D minor tuning is in La-Mi, which would imply that the D minor tuning here is an E minor tuning. This is confirmed on p. 198, where Mace gives in staff notation the pitches of the basses of both the E minor tuning (B-A-G-F#-E-D-B) and the flat tuning. Both are presupposed in the tables on pp. 192-6. On p. 190, Mace compares the tunings of the theorbo and of the lute, clearly stating that the 7th course of his theorbo is G, that way again confirming the given lute tuning. What is a bit awkward, indeed, is that he assumes the so-called D minor tuning one tone higher than it is usually taken to be (which would make things more difficult, theoretically). There can hardly be doubt, though, that Mace had a clear notion of pitches, as he strongly recommends to have an organ in the church for singing in tune (p. 9). If we assume that his pitches were based on organ pitch, we may safely infer that his lute cannot have been big. Mathias Dear Mathias, thanks a lot!! It is really highly interesting to hear, how the Mace tuning affects to the texture and sound of the music! Very different in a way in this high setting. How much do we know about the real pitch of Mace's lute? Does he give the string length of his lute in his book? Thanks again and all the best, Arto On Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:24:15 +0200, Mathias Roesel mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Well ... here you are: http://www.youtube.com/user/aluardy (pls have mercy) Mathias why wouldn't you play the Flat Tuning version of this piece by Mace to the y-tube by your new 12-courser? It is in the page 189. It would be highly interesting to hear the translation - as he calls it - by Mace! On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 10:51:50 +0300, wi...@cs.helsinki.fi wrote: Dear lutenists, I happened to find a concordance in Mace' book. The piece he uses as an example how to translate a piece from the New Tuning (the d-minor) to his preferred Flat Tuning, in page 188, is a Saraband by Jean Mercure! The piece can be found in several mss., for ex. in Milleran f. 22v. Perhaps this is already generally known, perhaps not? I just was checking the Mace' pieces in the New Tuning, and found something familiar... And yes, I have even tubed the Milleran version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTZKpXIx1Dg Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Viele Grüße Mathias Rösel Pastor Mathias Rösel Bgm.-Smidt-Str. 45a 27568 Bremerhaven Tel.: 0471 9292 8728 Fax: 0322 2371 1583
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
This whole discussion begins to approach the (almost ZEN) question of: What is the pure lute sound? Seems a religious approach, indeed. And answers given from this perspective will always smell of the _religion_ of Music. Look at how a lute will sound in different environments. Out in the open nature (bird song and all), or confined within larger or smaller spaces (warm tapestried wooden rooms versus cathedrals). The sound will vary immensely. Not to mention the musical environment which predisposes our perception, comprising muzak in supermarkets, pop in the radio, internet and tele, musical and opera through mass media, and, not least, recordings on CD. What a sound is like, much depends on what you've just listened to before. The stringing may vary, the construction of the lute may vary, etc. etc. You may take what you like. The choice is rather confined, however, when it comes to HIP. So should we persue this quest for the perfect lute sound, and can we? I for one prefer leaving this to others. IMO there is no man-made thing that qualifies as perfect. After all, perfection is a matter of (your own) idea(s). There are luthiers who build lutes notwithstanding surviving models, according to their notion of a perfect lute, or what it should be. The Liuto Forte has resulted from such thinking. But as I see it, human ears just love diversity. Yes, and that is the point IMO. Ears are crucial to sound. Instruments, strings, environments and resulting sounds are irrelevant unless there's an ear that listens. And you will never know what a certain sound, that you hear, will sound like to your neighbour. I do not seek for certain historical sounds as such. I have no idea how lutes sounded to 17th century people because I cannot imagine a musical world where sounds and music, that I have heard so far, do not yet exist. As long as I can remember, I cannot pretend not to know. A piece by f. ex. Bach or Weiss, played on multiple instruments or if plucked on: an authentic gut strung 13 course German baroque lute, a harp, an 11-14 string alto guitar, a lautenwerck etc. may be equally moving as well as equally JUSTIFIED. Notwithstanding that e. g. the alto guitar will hardly do justice to Bach's music in terms of HIP. Any instrument of our colourful modern world is justified to be played upon. You may try a transcription of Judenkünig's Niederlendisch Tantz on a grand Steinway, you may try Bach's toccata and fugue in D minor on an archlute, you may try a Chopin waltz on the e-guitar, and what not. Anything goes because the judgment is ours and of those who listen. Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
We would need to go back to school to learn this baroque language. So too, I believe, with the lute. If one simply wants to play the renaissance or baroque literature, fine. How so? When you just like to play the renaissance or baroque literature, you'll always do it within the scope of what you've learned before. If you had no teacher to show you renaissance or baroque literature, you'll play along the lines of what today is sold as classical music, probably. There is no such thing like playing the music as is. But if one wants to play it convincingly, knowledge of the language is essential. Convincing to whom? I'd rather say, if you want to play something comprehendible to yourself or to the audience, you'd better know your own musical language or the musical notions of your audience. Acceptance belongs to the listening ear. If you want to just do the right thing, which is an honourable goal, play for an appropriate entrance fee and give the money to those who need it. If you want to play according to the historical circumstances of the music that you are planning to play, be aware that your next audience may or may not like it, depending on if and how they have been trained to appreciate what you are going to perform. If you want to make money by playing early music right and record it, you will face market constraints that will force you to compromise. Hence those remarkable sounds of many lute CDs and those innumerable cuts in those recordings. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Lute recital
Dear Luters, if you happen to be near Bremen, Germany, on July 16th, don't miss Anna Kowalska and Anton Birula (Warsaw) with their recital Baroque Insight - Italian, Spanish and French jewelleries on the baroque guitar and theorbo Saturday July 16th, 7:30 pm Kultursalon in der Galerie Stoll Hinter der Holzpforte 1 28195 Bremen [1]www.galerie-stoll.de [2]gennady.kuznet...@yahoo.de Telephone: +49-421-48 505 80 Entry: 15,- Euro (reduced entry is 8/5-Euro for students and children). The entry includes a snack. Programme: Girolamo Kapsberger (1580-1651) Kapsberger Canarios Allessandro Piccinini (1566-1639) Ciaccona in Partite Variate Santiago de Murcia (1673 - 1739) Marionas Folias galegas Gaspar Sanz (1640 - 1710) Rujero Paradetas Tarantellas Canarios Break Francisco Corbetta (1615-1681) Caprice de chaconne Robert de Visee (1650 - 1725) Pieces in d Chaconne in G Antoine Forqueray (1656 - 1728) La Regente La Tronchin La Angrave La Morangis ou la Plissay Enjoy! Mathias -- References 1. http://www.galerie-stoll.de/ 2. mailto:gennady.kuznet...@yahoo.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lute Recital
Dear Luters, if you happen to be near Bremen, Germany, on July 16th, don't miss Anna Kowalska and Anton Birula (Warsaw) with their recital Baroque Insight - Italian, Spanish and French jewelleries on the baroque guitar and theorbo Saturday July 16th, 7:30 pm Kultursalon in der Galerie Stoll Hinter der Holzpforte 1 28195 Bremen www.galerie-stoll.de gennady.kuznet...@yahoo.de Telephone: +49-421-48 505 80 Entry: 15,- Euro (reduced entry is 8/5-Euro for students and children). The entry includes a snack. Programme: Girolamo Kapsberger (1580-1651) Kapsberger Canarios Allessandro Piccinini (1566-1639) Ciaccona in Partite Variate Santiago de Murcia (1673 – 1739) Marionas Folias galegas Gaspar Sanz (1640 – 1710) Rujero Paradetas Tarantellas Canarios Break Francisco Corbetta (1615-1681) Caprice de chaconne Robert de Visée (1650 – 1725) Pieces in d Chaconne in G Antoine Forqueray (1656 - 1728) La Regente La Tronchin La Angrave La Morangis ou la Plissay Enjoy! Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Gynocentricityness
Erm, did somebody mention already that gyne in Greek is neither a-declension nor o-declension? It's gyné, gynaikós, gynaikí, gynaika, and in compounds it's gynaiko- like in gynecologist, gynecology, gynecological, and gynecotropism. Gynoecium (generic term for all kinds of sporophyll) is derived from Latin gynaeceum, which is derived from Greek gynaikeion. From a graecist's perspective, gynocentrism is a wrongly built word and should be replaced by gynecocentrism. The latter is the case at least in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecocentrism#Terminology My two cents. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Eugene C. Braig IV Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Juli 2011 18:28 An: 'Monica Hall'; 'howard posner' Cc: 'Lutelist' Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Gynocentricityness -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2011 11:14 AM To: howard posner Cc: Lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Gynocentricityness You might be interested to know that the The Random House Dictionary of the English Language, Unabridged Edition (1968) p. 632, defines gyno- as a learned borrowing from Greek meaning 'female,' 'woman,' used in the formation of compound words [e.g.] gynophore. Which is American. I checked the Complete Oxford Dictionary on-line and all the sources it quotes seem to be American including the earliest usage. Well - we all know Americans spell things in a funny way.. So it appears you're just insufficiently learned, just like the rest of us. Maybe. Monica Me too, but at least I'm easily humored (or is that humoured?). Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
Why would you tell lies to children? Why would you confuse their budding sense of history? Why would I? I wouldn't, and I don't think I lied to the kids. Children of about six or seven years usually can't tell a month from thousand months. So, kings and knights and dragons implied something along the lines of back then, long ago. You may expect budding senses of history with children of about twelve years on. I was serious when I wrote you have to focus on your audience. What I tried to make clear, though, was that it's not the audience that shapes my own interest in the lute. Sometimes, people think of what they think is medieval, when they are confronted with lutes. And you'll have to comply somehow with them if you want to get connected, which is crucial for performers (or so I think). And I told the truth when I wrote that I used microphones. I have been doing so for a couple of gigs, and I think, successfully so. There is no point in a lute that you can't hear speaking. Its sound projects quite far, that much is true, but the subtleties of the sound get lost over longer distances. My mom is hearing impaired, so we took our places in the 2nd row at a lute recital a couple of week back. It was in an old chapel, distance to the lute player some 3 or 4 metres (ca. 12 ft.). She told me she could only hear him when he would strum. On my own gig with mikes and speakers, she could hear every tiny bit of it (including mistakes, alas), or so she said. Don't know why so many of us like to play in churches, but I for one won't hesitate to accept speakers if I'm offered. something in between astronomy and geometry. No effort to focus on the audience whatsoever. We concentrated utterly on the music and our instruments, almost hermetically. Musica reservata. They were simple, serious and quiet people and they loved it. I'd rather move the audience - towards a more profound understanding of history and music in it. I agree in that it comes down to understanding. We will understand things that we have known before. -- Once we had a journalist at our players' meeting. We showed her our lutes and told her bits of their history. You know, stuff like renaissance were played during the renaissance, i. e. late 15th through the 17th centuries and so on. Next day, her report was in the newspaper. Nice pictures, a bit of descriptive text, and the headline read: An Air of the Middle Ages. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Sting by a Lutenist
David, this is awesome. I'll try to play it myself that way according to your video. Who can attack you because of your assumed personal preferences?!? Best wishes, Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David van Ooijen Gesendet: Sonntag, 3. Juli 2011 11:26 An: lutelist Net Betreff: [LUTE] Sting by a Lutenist As a response to mentioning Sting, in a neutral way as far as I was aware, in my recent ramblings on how music becomes different with a different sound aesthetic, I received a rather unpleasant private e-mail insinuating I have a grudge against Sting. Nothing could be further from the truth, in fact I love his music, and to save myself the trouble of getting into a nasty exchange of private e-mails, I would like you to have a look at what I have my guitar kids play, and as example I play for them: http://youtu.be/l5llNtjrS4M Yes, that's me on steel (!) strings. I rest my case. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
Dear Stewart, Whoever performs on the lute, will necessarily focus on their audience. Tonight I introduced the lute to very young students of a music school. Since children under, say, eleven years of age usually can't distinguish eras of the past, I told them that the lute belongs to that era when there were kings and knights and dragons, and that it would be played on castles when the king wished to dance. I played the Pavana Bray (Byrd / Cutting) and the Coranto Confesse. Then I added that sometimes the queen wished to sing, and I accompanied an adult singer with Come Again (by You Know Who). The children and their parents were deeply impressed both by the instrument's sight and by the music. You just have to focus on your audience. And if our only goal is to move the audience, then why not use microphones? I did so tonight, as we were performing in a huge church building. I wouldn't mind some artificial fog as well (like E. K. did in his Forlorn Hope video), if that improves the effect on the audience. What I did avoid, though, was to strum heavily or to bend or to crush the lute on one of the amplifiers because I figured that the kids aren't familiar with Jimi Hendrix or Rory Gallagher. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Stewart McCoy Gesendet: Sonntag, 3. Juli 2011 13:04 An: Lute Net Betreff: [LUTE] What's the point to 'historical sound' Dear Mathias, As a man of the cloth, you will know that music has long been able to have a powerful effect on the listener: And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand; so Saul was refreshed. And was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. [1, Samuel, 16, 23] One can speculate about the extent of David's self-expression through music, and whether or not this was possible for someone living before the 19th century. The important thing for me, which transcends HIP/ non-HIP considerations, is the effect of the music we play on the listener. After hearing me play the lute in a primary school some years ago, the most disruptive pupil in the class wrote, When I heard the lute, I felt I wanted to cry. Therein lies the point of what we do. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mathias Roesel Sent: 02 July 2011 22:38 To: 'lutelist Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound' Would you consider Lachrimae as a personal artistic expression of Dowland or as an example of more general craftsmanship? An expression of his sublime art, certainly. I do resist the notion, however, that Dowland had personally fallen in love with queen Elizabeth. On the other hand, I had the opportunity to attend a recital where an American soprano sang this song and moved me to tears. I happened to make her acquaintance and came to know that she was endlessly sad because her husband had to live in the US while she was trying to settle in Europe. I won't go more into the details, think you'll get the idea. Maybe Francesco, Dowland or Weiss didn't feel about their art as we today imagine Beethoven felt about his art, but does that make their art less of a personal expression? Okay, probably I have misunderstood what to you is a personal expression. To me it is expressing your own true emotions and feelings towards others. That is difficult business if there is no appropriate musical language for doing that. Composers from Beethoven to Wagner and Strauss (to name a few Europeans) invented a musical language so as to express personal feelings explicitly. in essence there was no difference between Beethoven and earlier composers like Weiss, Dowland or Francesco. There was a difference in their social role and stature, the value and regard of their works, but perhaps not in their own attitude to what must have been their children: ther compositions. We'll never know for sure as they didn't elaborate on this topic (as far as I know). There is an anecdote about Chopin that I read somewhere. When Chopin came to Paris, he heard a local pianist playing music by Chopin. Chopin is said to have been startled as that pianist was playing the music so emotionally But taking pieces of lute music as expressing personal emotions of their composers That could never be the basis of an interpretation. Only as a starting point of how we would feel what we imagine the composer would have felt. Today's interpreter is the translator of these feelings. Yes. Take e. g. the Tombeaux for Logy and for Cajetan by Weiss. Very expressive pieces, full of dark minor chords and remote keys. Perhaps we like to take them as personal expressions of grief. Weiss would not have dared, I suppose. settings that the music probably
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
Very simple answers. Composers expected money/food/lodging in exchange for whatever music his (almost always his) patron desired. Just kidding, right? Not even Charly Marx would have said so, I suppose. Audiences expected to be pleased. I beg to differ. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
Art is a personal expression of universal value, That concept of the arts has developed in Western Europe in the wake of political emancipation during the 18th-19th centuries. Before that era, artists would usually not consider themselves autonomous so as to make use of their art in order to express themselves. Most lute music dates from times older than that. Point taken. But without the high-blown words I think it's fair to say that much lute music is still very personal. Perhaps in older times more expressions of craftsmanship than art, but still, personall expressions. Sorry to blow high, but, hm . there is such a thing like personal style to compositions by, say, Handel, Emond or Vieux Gallot, to name a few. I'd like to consider them their distinguishing marks. You will recognize some of Handel's music by his pet final formula, some of Emond's allemandes by his particular shifted rhythms, and some of Vieux Gallot's pieces by his use of upper positions on the fret board. You could call that their unique selling propositions, if you will. But I'd have difficulties in taking these features as personal. Music as a way of personal expression is a notion that didn't develop until the 19th century. Music to _raise_ fear, joy, anger, sadness, tranquility etc. has been composed since the invention of monody. But not music that expresses fear, joy, anger, sadness, tranquility etc. of its composer (like e. g. van Beethoven's Pleasant Emotions at the Arrival in the Woods, 6th Symphony, 2nd movement). Everybody must choose their ways of performing for an audience present (even if it's no more than yourself). But taking pieces of lute music as expressing personal emotions of their composers IMO is a case of intentional fallacy, more often than not. -- I for one would base the interpretation on settings that the music probably was performed in (like royal festivities with dances, civic parties etc.) rather than on possible personal expressions of the composers. I believe that for a player it helps to understand the coding to play the music more convincingly. A pivotal point IMO: Convincingly for whom? For me, remember: lute playing is just for me, that was the whole point of doing pointless things. Sorry I misunderstood. So, if it's only myself I have to convince ... -- what's the difference? Finding something convincing or plausible, presupposes other people's opinions in my mind (teachers, writers, performers). If I don't have a clue, how can I be convincing even to myself? I even imagine that if I were a prof performer, I'd have in mind a generic audience as well. I do know. But I might not be what they expect a real minstrel to be anyway. I don't (usually) sing to my lute playing either, nor do I wear a feather in my cap. ;) Oh, yes, the feather, an important accessory. Well, you and me and some others know that it isn't really important in itself, do we. But we also know that we're sometimes expected to wear it. And if we don't, it's still there as a minus on the list. Coloured feather standing for artistic expression, rubato, some dynamics etc. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
David, Today's performers should be interested in moving their audiences, of course! After all, we're living in the 21st century, and prof performers have to make a living of it. I do know that. But for me it's a hobby, and I can afford the luxury of wondering what the sound and performance practice e. g. of French lute music in the 17th century probably was. I take the time to consider the music in the environment of the French royal court, the bourgeois parlour, the précieux movement, i. e. its social function. I watch dancers when they perform historical dances. I read articles on the Influence of French Verse on French Lute Music. We'll never know for sure, of course. But my guess is, as Roman rightly put it, that self-expression didn't become a standard goal until the 19th century. People of the social classes where lute music was played in the 16th through 18th centuries, led their lives much more formal than we do today. Self-expression would have been embarrassing, probably. I even take Froberger's and Zelenka's music to be expressive (and very much so), but not self-expressive. I played La Belle Homicide to my friends, one night, in two ways. First, I explained some of the musical gestures, the small answering phrases, and the courante as a representative court dance. That performance was frankly boring to them. After that, I played that courante like an Italian corrente, vividly rushing through the piece, and, yai, that's the thing. On another occasion, I attended a theorbo concert where the performer happened to do some bending in some of the pieces. Interesting modern interpretation of early music, why not. After the recital, I overheard some people who were disgusted, as they felt that bending is a modern guitar technique. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David R Gesendet: Samstag, 2. Juli 2011 20:52 An: Roman Turovsky Cc: Mathias Roesel; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound' On Jul 2, 2011, at 1:40 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: What Mathias meant is that self-expression did not become the standard goal for all music intil the 19th century. Self expression certainly has existed ever since Froberger. Some, like Zelenka, tried to control it, but it was coming out anyway. To my way of thinking, any music is a form of self-expression, even if all it does is to show audiences what crashing bores some performers can be. Okay, so assuming that the early-music performer is not interested in self- expression, tell me if I have this right: the performer takes a dispassonate view towards playing the music, and plays it so perfectly that the music itself is able to move the audience to the desired affekt the nature of which only the composer knows for sure. Is that the point to historical sound. D To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
Would you consider Lachrimae as a personal artistic expression of Dowland or as an example of more general craftsmanship? An expression of his sublime art, certainly. I do resist the notion, however, that Dowland had personally fallen in love with queen Elizabeth. On the other hand, I had the opportunity to attend a recital where an American soprano sang this song and moved me to tears. I happened to make her acquaintance and came to know that she was endlessly sad because her husband had to live in the US while she was trying to settle in Europe. I won't go more into the details, think you'll get the idea. Maybe Francesco, Dowland or Weiss didn't feel about their art as we today imagine Beethoven felt about his art, but does that make their art less of a personal expression? Okay, probably I have misunderstood what to you is a personal expression. To me it is expressing your own true emotions and feelings towards others. That is difficult business if there is no appropriate musical language for doing that. Composers from Beethoven to Wagner and Strauss (to name a few Europeans) invented a musical language so as to express personal feelings explicitly. in essence there was no difference between Beethoven and earlier composers like Weiss, Dowland or Francesco. There was a difference in their social role and stature, the value and regard of their works, but perhaps not in their own attitude to what must have been their children: ther compositions. We'll never know for sure as they didn't elaborate on this topic (as far as I know). There is an anecdote about Chopin that I read somewhere. When Chopin came to Paris, he heard a local pianist playing music by Chopin. Chopin is said to have been startled as that pianist was playing the music so emotionally But taking pieces of lute music as expressing personal emotions of their composers That could never be the basis of an interpretation. Only as a starting point of how we would feel what we imagine the composer would have felt. Today's interpreter is the translator of these feelings. Yes. Take e. g. the Tombeaux for Logy and for Cajetan by Weiss. Very expressive pieces, full of dark minor chords and remote keys. Perhaps we like to take them as personal expressions of grief. Weiss would not have dared, I suppose. settings that the music probably was performed in (like royal festivities with dances, civic parties etc.) How boring: music without emotions but historical setting only. I'm sorry? Festivities and parties without emotions? Without expression of true personal emotions, possibly, but certainly not without emotions! Every little musical phrase expresses gestures which are connected to emotions. That's the thing with any kind of code: If only you're trained to appreciate, you'll be able to enjoy. For sure, the programmes I play are full of historical references, I play early music after all, but to make it into sounding music, the stuff that makes people cry or laugh, I have to bring in emotions ... .. of your own. rather than on possible personal expressions of the composers. .. and what better source of emotions, in a historical setting, can I draw on than the emotions that the composer is conveying to me through his composition? The composer is conveying? The opposite is true, I think, in that we carry our emotions into what we hear because we always search for meaning. 'Flow my tears' - what more do I need for inspiration? And that's what makes you an accomplished artist. I'm sure, though, you will perform it differently from E. Karamazov who didn't need more for inspiration as well. That's the beauty of it: convince yourself and you'll convince your audience. And if it doesn't work, find another job. ;-) People who are making music for their audiences only, are entertainers. A good job, and we can learn much from them, but it needs a different kind of personality. The kind that doesn't mind wearing feathers' in their caps. Which I don't mind doing when occasion demands, by the way. Couldn't agree more. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
People didn't suddenly change from neoclassical robots into emotional beings in 1800. Well, if we diminish the exaggeration just a bit ... I do think that enlightenment and the French revolution brought about quite a turnabout. In feudal societies, people would publicly express their feelings. That is the gap between Haydn and Mozart on the one, and Beethoven on the other hand. People of the social classes where lute music was played in the 16th through 18th centuries, led their lives much more formal than we do today. Again I disagree. Musicmaking in the late 16th and 17th centuries was just as much a middle-class domestic affair as courtly. It certainly was. But even at home, life was much more formal than it is today. And the bourgeoisie was trying to imitate the nobility, which didn't make things easier. And besides, do you think that the court of James I of England was all that formal? Erm, yes. I really don't think that people have changed at all throughout history. Perhaps that's the point. I do think so. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] WG: Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'
People didn't suddenly change from neoclassical robots into emotional beings in 1800. Well, if we diminish the exaggeration just a bit ... I do think that enlightenment and the French revolution brought about quite a turnabout. In feudal societies, people would NOT publicly express their feelings. That is the gap between Haydn and Mozart on the one, and Beethoven on the other hand. Sorry. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
There was a mistake in my prior post: In PL-Wn396, fol 44v, there are three different ornaments, viz. comma, cross and half-moon below. The cross once appears with an unstopped course. So, if the comma means an appogiatura from above, the _CROSS_ (!!!) necessarily means a trill starting from the upper note. Then the half-moon probably means an appogiatura from below. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Grzegorz Joachimiak [mailto:gjoachim...@wp.pl] wrote I think piece from so-called ms. Schaffgotsch has a lot of errors. There concern mainly intervals, absence of some letters, and differents of rhythm. Yes, missing letters and letters on wrong lines. But as for differing rhythms, I beg to differ. I'd like to believe that Saizenay is a fairly late and elaborated source as regards rhythms, whereas this tombeau in Schaffgotsch (PL-Wn 396 cim) was copied from an earlier source as its notated rhythms and ornaments are kept very simple. I compare it to the skeleton-like notations in the Rhetorique des Dieux in that its utterly simple notations are intended to serve as a basis for interpretation. But you asked about ornamnets. I thought about comma ornaments. In PL-Wn 396 Cim. they are not look the same in my opinion. So maybe comma ornament with bigger curve (tunny) are appogiaturas (from above) and comma with smaller tunny are mordents (also from above). But there is also a comma with smaller tunny and with crosswise short line. It could be a mordent from below. I can't see commas of different breadths of stroke (if that is what you meant to suggest) in the tombeau in PL-Wn 396 cim. Only - commas on the right of a letter (1st half: bar 4 on beat 1, bar on 6 beats 2 and 4, bar 7 on beats 1and 2 and 4; 2nd half: bar 2 on beat 3, bar 3 on beat 2-and, bar 4 on beat 1, bar 7 on beats 1 and 3, bar 8 on beat 2-and) - crosses (1st half: bar 2 on beat 2, bar 5 on beat 3; 2nd half: bar 2 on beat 3-and, bar 3 on beat 4, bar 6 on beat 4, bar 7 on beats 2 and 4, bar 8 on beast 3) and half-moons below letters. Comparison of the concordances shows that the half-moons denote an appoggiatura from below / chute / fall (e. g. bar 1 on beat 3, or bar 3 on beat 3). However, Wn-396 has half-moons at a number of places where the concordances read commas, and that considerably changes the flow of the line. What is funny is a place like bar 3 on beat 1. There, Wn 396 reads an appoggiatura from below on B flat (half-moon below 2i), whereas the concordances read an appoggiatura from above on B natural (comma on 1g). That will hardly be a slip of the pen. You could argue that most of the half-moons are errors. One way of explaining B flat on 2i instead of B natural on 1g could be that the scribe intabulated from staff notation. That would or could explain as well those mistaken ornaments (if they are mistakes), i. e. half-moon where there should be commas. But what if these deviations are _not_ mistakes? How is one to play this tombeau from Wn 396? For me is interesting too an chordal conclusion in Schaffgotsch ms. In any other sources I did not find ending like here. And this chords have all of component (prime-third-fifth). Yes, another deviation, indeed. Wn 396 keeps the rhythmic structure, though, and it is more correct than the other versions in terms of metre in that it has a dotted crotched in the end, compensating for the initial upbeat, whereas the concordances have a minim in the end. Mathias Dnia 2-06-2011 o godz. 0:28 Mathias Roesel napisał(a): Dear everybody, is someone familiar with the Tombeau de Mazarin? Pls find sources and concordances at http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=2type=mslang=deums=PL- Wn396page =44v In PL-Wn396, fol 44v, there are three different ornaments, viz. comma, cross and half-moon below. The cross once appears with an unstopped course. So, if the comma means an appogiatura from above, the comma necessarily means a trill starting from the upper note. Then the half-moon probably means an appogiatura from below. If that is so, my impression is that the melody is intentionally disfigured not only in Wn 396 but also in A-Krems79 (#164 on fol. 89v), A-Wn17706 (fol. 17v) and even in Saizenay (#167). Also in this piece, there are tediously repeated phrases which belong to the Italian style of baroque composing, but would be carefully avoided in French baroque lute music. Is it supposable that this tombeau is not a tombstone of beloved memory, but a mockery, rather, aimed at the pet-hated Italian cardinal who overcame the uprising of the Fronde? Any ideas? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tombeau de Mazarin
So, piece in PL-Wn 396 Cim. is example of interpretation, but we need to do a source criticism, because we could eliminated errors and we would know some specific of interpretation this piece. Yes, I think so. But I do not think of this piece (or of any French baroque lute music) in terms of urtext. Wn 396 is a genuine source, as is. As you said, those half-moons aren't necessarily mistakes. (By the way, there is a hermeneutics, isn't there?) This is easier when we have concordances. There is harder when we have a unique piece by Anonymous. Well, yes, there is a kind of hermeneutics. I shouldn't correct Pl-Wn 396, by means of other versions of other versions, as a whole. Some corrections are obvious (letters on wrong lines, missing letters). Others are not so obvious (ornaments, rhythm). I thought about commas from e.g. 1st half: bar 4 on beat 1, bar 7 on beats 2 and 4 are not the same as bar 6 on beats 2 and 4, bar 7 on beats 1 (look like half- moons) - there are not single coincedences. Both wrote from the right side of letter. I suppose that scribe intentionally wrote sometimes a bigger commas (like half-moons) and sometimes smaller ornament. And I meant that smaller comma could be a mordent and bigger comma could be an appogiatura. Let me know if I think incorrectly and if these differentes are only slip of the pen. By half-moon I meant to denote a curve below a letter, not a comma on the right of a letter. And, no, different sizes of commas do not signify different ornaments IMO. A comma is a comma, be it broad or slim. BTW the differences between the commas that you mention amount to hundredths of miliimetres. Another cup of tea is whether you execute a comma as an appoggiatura or as a trill (starting on the main note or on the upper auxiliary note). I think that depends on when you think the piece was composed. Trills starting on the main note are fine with me in pieces earlier than, say, 1630. One more important things in example from Schaffgotsch's manuscript are points situated near the letters. I suppose there are mean a fingering to left hand. Yes, definitely. A scribe wrote fingering in difficult places to execute what we can't find in examples from e.g. A-Wn17706 (only singly points), Well,the tombeau in Wn 396 is fingered througout. As opposed to that, single dots in Vienna 17706 refer to the index of the right hand. So we could see that this fingering is useful and probable was wrote by scribe who knew which fingering is necessary to catch an unbroken cantabile and how to play more comfortable. Let me put it this way: Fingerings make clear the way scribes understood their phrasings. Not necessarily cantabile or comfortable. Best, Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Tombeau de Mazarin
Dear everybody, is someone familiar with the Tombeau de Mazarin? Pls find sources and concordances at http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=2type=mslang=deums=PL-Wn396page=44v In PL-Wn396, fol 44v, there are three different ornaments, viz. comma, cross and half-moon below. The cross once appears with an unstopped course. So, if the comma means an appogiatura from above, the comma necessarily means a trill starting from the upper note. Then the half-moon probably means an appogiatura from below. If that is so, my impression is that the melody is intentionally disfigured not only in Wn 396 but also in A-Krems79 (#164 on fol. 89v), A-Wn17706 (fol. 17v) and even in Saizenay (#167). Also in this piece, there are tediously repeated phrases which belong to the Italian style of baroque composing, but would be carefully avoided in French baroque lute music. Is it supposable that this tombeau is not a tombstone of beloved memory, but a mockery, rather, aimed at the pet-hated Italian cardinal who overcame the uprising of the Fronde? Any ideas? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Tombeau-Bittner
Seem to remember there were recordings by Walter Gerwig available, but noton YouTube, of course. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Grzegorz Joachimiak Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. Mai 2011 16:12 An: BAROQUE-LUTE Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Tombeau-Bittner Dear baroque lute gang, I'm looking for audio recordings with Tombeau by Jacques Bittner. Do you know any examples? I searched also on Youtube but without success. Bests Grzegorz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Purcell
[1]http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?lang=engid=2type=mssmss=nam=Purcellk ey=msnam=comp= Sure, but these seem to be by Daniel Purcell, who was Henry's brother IIRC. Does someone happen to own a copy of that ms. PL-Pu ms. 7033 (kept in Poznan)? Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Lute Concert
Dear everybody, if you happen to be near Bremen on May 6th 2011, don't miss the opportunity: Simon Linné plays music by Robert Ballard on the 10c lute Friday, May 6th 2011, 8:00 pm St. Johannes-Kirche In der Traenke 24 28279 Bremen Bus # 51, stop Arster Kirche Entrance is free, donations are welcome. Mathias http://www.kirche-bremen.de/termine/termin_detail_popup.php?ident=56852 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Purcell lute and ensemble songs
My top favourite is When I Am Laid In Earth (Dido), but that's not exactly a song. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Dienstag, 12. April 2011 06:02 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Purcell lute and ensemble songs Dear collective wisdom, please weigh in with your favorite Purcell song for the tenor range for my fall set. There are so many, I would appreciate some insight. So far I have Sweeter than roses If music be the food of love (version 1) Fairest Isle Lord what is man Evening hymn I attempt from love's sickness Edinboro town Cupid the slyest Dogstar And have ruled out: O solitude BVM Expo Hark the eccing air We have two violins, viol, archlute harpsichord, recorder Thanks so much! dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Leipzig II.6.24
Yes, that I already have. Rich and good collection, too! Most pieces in the ms. are anonymous, but concordances to quite a few pieces by Reusner et al can be found. Many pieces are very well composed, some adroitly and to full capacity using the advantages of deviating tunings. I love the music. One peculiarity is that dotted rhythm sign more often than not consist of the dot only, lacking the shaft. Seems to be so that Leipzig has been a very musical city... ;-) I haven't the faintest about the provenance of the ms. Mathias On 08/04/11 01:00, Mathias Roesel wrote: Try Leipzig II.6.24. It's available from Tree as well. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von wikla Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. April 2011 21:50 An: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms. Leipzig II.6.14 by Tree Edition - great! Dear baroque lutenists, I just got the Tree/Albert R. edition of the Ms. Leipzig II.6.14 facsimile. Beautiful and interesting music, mainly Gallot (the great one! ;-). Also very beautifully written ms. Strongly recommended to every 11 course player! Hard to find better stuff to the instrument. All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Leipzig II.6.14 by Tree Edition - great!
Try Leipzig II.6.24. It's available from Tree as well. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von wikla Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. April 2011 21:50 An: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Ms. Leipzig II.6.14 by Tree Edition - great! Dear baroque lutenists, I just got the Tree/Albert R. edition of the Ms. Leipzig II.6.14 facsimile. Beautiful and interesting music, mainly Gallot (the great one! ;-). Also very beautifully written ms. Strongly recommended to every 11 course player! Hard to find better stuff to the instrument. All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a modern lute duet by Gilbert Isbin
Very interesting final comment. I sometimes have the impression that the seventeenth century is happening all over again, with more and more people taking up baroque lute, baroque guitar, theorbo etc and leaving the renaissance lute behind. Is it simply too hard? I doubt that the number of baroque lute players is increasing. They just happen to be more present in public 8) I for one took up the baroque lute after the renaissance lute because I wanted to play the lute music by Bach, primarily. I discovered that there's much more to the baroque lute than Bach's music. I ended up in putting Bach's on the shelf and finally focusing on the French. That does not imply that I've ceased to play the renaissance lute. I do play it and I enjoy it. Nevertheless, playing the baroque lute has had an impact. My current renaissance epee is a 10c instrument, me focusing on Robert Johnson, Robert Ballard, Nicolas Vallet. Mathias On 30 March 2011 13:59, Ron Andrico [1]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: Yes, of course jazz standards will work on lute, either in old tuning or in d-minor tuning. The point in playing effective jazz guitar is not just playing triad harmonies (always altered) but voice leading. Listen to old recordings by Dick McDonough and the player who took up where he left off, George Van Eps. The latter spent his entire productive life demonstrating that improvisation with good voice leading in four parts was not only possible but the standard by which idiomatic playing translates into good music you want to hear. That is why playing - and writing - polyphony is the best way to wrap your head around how any music fits on the lute. Face it, guitar is easier to play, and block chords are simpler to understand. This is why so many guitarists seem to gravitate toward music for baroque lute with its simpler treble - bass construction. Ron Andrico [2]www.mignarda.com -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089 mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614 [3]peter.l...@gmail.com -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com 2. http://www.mignarda.com/ 3. mailto:peter.l...@gmail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc
The first recording of music by Saint-Luc that I could get hold of was the CD http://www.amazon.com/Works-Lute-Saint-Luc/dp/B265TY/ref=sr_1_8?s=music; ie=UTF8qid=1300914259sr=1-8 by Stephen Stubbs (recommended!). In his booklet, he militated against the idea that this music was penned by father and son Saint Luc. The thing is, I know of no early music by Saint Luc from, say, 1640 through 1680. The only collections that I'm aware of are those in Vienna (Vienna, Österreichische Nationalbibliothek, Suppl. Mus. 1586) and in Prague (Hudební oddelení Nárdoní, Ms. X Lb 210). Concordances can be found in Warsaw, Biblioteka Uniwersytecka, Rps. 37 (olim Wroclaw Ms Mf 2006) and in Haslemere, The Dolmetsch Library, Ms. II.B.2. There is one ms. in Prague that contains much of Saint Luc's music in arrangements for the lute with violin and bass (Prague Ms. II Kk 49). Perhaps all of that music was composed by the son, i. e. Jacques Alexandre de Saint Luc? Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Martyn Hodgson Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. März 2011 17:25 An: Baroque lute Dmth Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] PS to: Jacques de Saint-Luc By chance I've just looked for any recorded music of Saint-Luc and saw that there's a CD by a 'Jacques-Alexandre de Saint Luc' with dates given as 1663 - c.1715. I have no knowledge of the source of this information but it would certainly fit with the speculation of two individuals with the same, or similar,names. The players are Jacques Vandeville oboe and Daniel Fournier lute (and theorbo!). MH --- On Wed, 23/3/11, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Jacques de Saint-Luc To: Baroque lute Dmth baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Wednesday, 23 March, 2011, 15:47 The dates of this composer are generally given as 1616 - 1710 which seems a phenomenal life span for the time and even more so when his extant lute works seem to be in the style of the early decades of the 18th century (even down to fashionable doubling of the top and bottom line by strings) which would have made him well into his 90s when these works were composed... His compositional style also seems much closer to Austro-germanic composers like Logy, von Radolt, Hintherleithner et al who flourished around the turn of the century being predominantly in a polarised treble and bass manner. I can find little about this shadowy figure but am being drawn to the speculation that there may have been two different composers with the same name (father and son/nephew perhaps). Can anybody shed further light? Perhaps I've missed a paper? One clue ought to be the names of pieces such as 'La Prise de Barcellonne', which might suggest a date of 1705 or 1714 but could be some earlier investment, or 'Le defaittes des Francois par les Allemand Devant Turin' which suggests 1703. Again I find it hard to believe that the same San Luc was composing such 'modern' programmatic music at such a ripe old age. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Wandervögel Songs
Dear Arthur, All I meant to say was that the keyboard arrangements cannot be played on the lute. And I fr one do consider the Wandervogel lute a proper lute, btw. Furthermore, many of these arrangements have instrumental introductions that have been specifically composed for the piano. The Wandervogel people are led into the parlour 8) Arthur, you know all these things, but let me say it nevertheless: Wandervogel Lieder were intrinsically tied to outdoors wandering, Wandervogel people strumming their lutes and guitars. There was no need of artful playing techniques. No pianos rambling on the roads, chords was all they needed. Wandervogel Lieder are still sung in quite a few circles where the way of Wandervogel thinking and their way of life still is alive. Most of them elderly people, of course, singing inside the houses more often than outdoors. Wandervogel lyrics really deserve attention, way not all of it belongs to the Volksmusik rubbish that you can see on German TV. But it takes a good command of German. Best wishes, Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: A. J. Ness [mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net] Gesendet: Sonntag, 20. März 2011 23:13 An: Mathias Rösel; Lute List Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Wandervögel Songs Dear Mathias, I didn't mean it to be a substitute for any number of books with songs from that repertory. Indeed the Zupfgeigenhansl is available in many, many editions offered by antiquarian dealers, and range in size (and hence number of opieces) from 95 to 138 pages. Use the Karlsruhe Connection (last column) to locate copies: http://www.ubka.uni-karlsruhe.de/kvk_en.html The volumes I cited, Was die Wandervögel, have nearly 800 songs, and are available for Laute (Gitarre), also, but only with chord accompaniments. So, a lute accompaniment arranged from Krome's keyboard arrangement might be more interesting. The book mentioned by Wolfgang also has interesting pieces because they draw upon such old songs. Here again is Wolfgang's link to the online facsimile: http://www.mediafire.com/?dxceoidm4p4xfmi Perhaps we should be paying closer attention to the Wandervögel Lieder. Greetings from Boston, Arthur. - Original Message - From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de To: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net; Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 6:26 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Wandervögel Songs You'll have all the tunes and lyrics from this edition, at least. But these are adaptations for the keyboard, definitely no more feasible on the lute. Quite a few copies of Der Zupfgeigenhandel are still floating around ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Zupfgeigenhansl ), why not take one of those. Mathias Some of you may be interested in this collection in several volumes with hundreds of songs (alas arranged for piano, but originally for lute-guitar): [1]http://hdl.handle.net/1802/14257 Publication Name: Was die Wandervo#776;gel singen ... fu#776;r Klavier bearbeitet und herausgegeben von Hermann Krome. Illustriert von Paul Telemann. Band I-IV. Arranger:Krome, Hermann (1888 - 1955) Is anyone out there interested in this repertory? Roman? References 1. http://hdl.handle.net/1802/14257 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Jacques Gallot and Francesco da Milano
Erm … there were two … Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Martin Shepherd Gesendet: Samstag, 19. März 2011 12:41 An: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Jacques Gallot and Francesco da Milano Yes, I agree! Martin On 18/03/2011 22:46, wikla wrote: Original Message Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Jacques Gallot and Francesco da Milano Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 23:29:00 +0200 From: wiklawi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Dear baroque lutenists, after having check-played through quite a few pieces by Jacques Gallot, I've come to the conclusion (that means this is my subjective opininion, of course!) that Jacques really is one of the great lute composers - in the level of F. da Milano, Dowland, E. Gaultier and such). And what especially came to mind, is that J. Gallot in a way tastes same as Francesco da Milano - about 150 years later: very economic writing, actually in extrem, very clever ideas of melody and harmony, extremely very well written to the instrument, its tuning, and to the fingers of both hands of the player. Not to speak of the enjoyment to the ears and understanding. So Jacques is thus taken to my heaven of lute geniuses! :-) Recommended! All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: good bad instead of strong weak
I doubt that anyone will be able to find out what people who are dead were _thinking_. As for Quantz, he wrote gut and schlecht. In modern German schlecht means bad, but in Quantz's days, the word meant simple. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Herbert Ward Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. März 2011 04:31 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: good bad instead of strong weak Thanks for the info. But did our historical forebears think of these words good and bad in the context of morality or religion? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: German tablature
*waves hand* Mat -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Rob MacKillop Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. März 2011 17:55 An: howard posner Cc: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German tablature Exactly. Well, it's fun to do, and it is always nice to work from facsimiles. But yes, I could do it a hundred times faster in French tab. It has always been a no-go area for me, or even no-reason-to-go, but I'm taking an interest in early German lute music, and it seemed the respectful thing to do, and not without interest. Anyone here fluent in it? Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: good bad instead of strong weak
Komisch kaum, dass mal einer was richtig vorstellt, reden sie alle von was anderem wie Luftbefeuchtern Ich verstehe das aber eher in dem Sinn: Dem war nichts hinzuzufügen. Viele Grüße Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Bernd Haegemann Gesendet: Montag, 7. März 2011 18:48 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Herbert Ward Betreff: [LUTE] Re: good bad instead of strong weak Now to come to your question, ;-) the first one I know to speak of good and bad notes, is -tatataTA-: Girolamo Dirula 1593. DiruTa of course, sorry. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Fasch Concerto for Lute
People in the first two rows could hear him better, perhaps Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von magnus andersson Gesendet: Sonntag, 6. März 2011 20:55 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Fasch Concerto for Lute 1. Allegro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZrcR4zMKOgfeature=channel_video_title With the International Baroque Players and Magnus Andersson, Baroque lute. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ?
Yay … ! Mat -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von wi...@cs.helsinki.fi Gesendet: Freitag, 4. März 2011 13:44 An: Jean-Marie Poirier Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Ms. Lei. II 6 14 ? Perhaps we have already something: http://opac.rism.info/index.php and in English, too http://opac.rism.info/index.php?id=2L=1 The main page http://www.rism.info/ Or what is this? Arto On 04/03/11 14:24, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: I agree 200 percent Bernd ;-) Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 04-03-2011, 11:58:11 == I find that we all should get the RISM for free from the UN Lute High Commissioner. B To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: good bad instead of strong weak
Quantz uses these names. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Lex van Sante Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. März 2011 22:31 An: Herbert Ward; lute mailing list list Betreff: [LUTE] Re: good bad instead of strong weak Hi Herbert Nicolaus Harnoncourt writes about the hierarchy of beats in Musik als Klangrede in English Music as speech Maybe this is what you mean. Cheers, Lex Op 2 mrt 2011, om 22:00 heeft Herbert Ward het volgende geschreven: Everyone is familiar with the idea of strong and weak beats. I remember reading that, at some historical time and place, these were called good and bad beats (perhaps not in English). Any info on this? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Laute, Theorbe, Chitarrone
May I say that I still use my copy (5th edition 1982). By and large it's still useful for locating sources. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von David Tayler Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. Februar 2011 00:25 An: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Laute, Theorbe, Chitarrone I have this book, it is useful but outdated. Hopefully someone will write a new one, or perhaps the work has been done already? The book lists many of the surviving instruments, with measurements. There is enough raw data there to draw some interesting conclusions (lutes come in many sizes, shapes, and stringing) However, there needs to be research into the state of the instruments, and especially the size of the bridge holes. There is also a worklist, of sorts, but this is outdated as well. I've had on my to do list for a while now to put all the measurements together into a big table (the instruments are arbitarily divided). Presumably, this would show a either a gapless or very small gap continuum in sizes. If there are lacunae, that could be interesting, but it looks to be lots of different sizes. If indeed there is a broad continuum, then we would need to reevaluate how we categorize all these instruments. The caveat here is the original condition dt At 06:32 AM 1/26/2011, you wrote: What is the current consensus of Ernst Pohlmann's book, Laute, Theorbe, Chitarrone Is it still reliable enough to use as a reference, or is it getting outdated? Is there any work to update the material? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Vihuela Concert
Dear everybody, If you happen to be near Bremen on the forthcoming weekend, don't miss Pedro Alcacer's vihuela concerts! He will play music from all seven known prints of music for the vihuela, including the famous six pavanas by Luis Milan. Venues: Saturday February 5^th 2011, 5:30 pm, Speicher XI, 8, 28217 Bremen Sunday, February 6^th 2011, 3:30 pm, Speicher XI, 8, 28217 Bremen See also: [1]http://www.reverbnation.com/palcacer Enjoy, Mathias -- References 1. http://www.reverbnation.com/palcacer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Vihuela Concert
Well, yes, the pond ... I forgot, sorry ;) Mat the flat -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Eugene C. Braig IV Gesendet: Mittwoch, 2. Februar 2011 00:08 An: 'Mathias Roesel'; 'Lute List' Cc: palca...@gmail.com Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Vihuela Concert Nice! I wish there wasn't an ocean between Bremen and me. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Mathias Roesel Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:00 PM To: Lute List Cc: palca...@gmail.com Subject: [LUTE] Vihuela Concert Dear everybody, If you happen to be near Bremen on the forthcoming weekend, don't miss Pedro Alcacer's vihuela concerts! He will play music from all seven known prints of music for the vihuela, including the famous six pavanas by Luis Milan. Venues: Saturday February 5^th 2011, 5:30 pm, Speicher XI, 8, 28217 Bremen Sunday, February 6^th 2011, 3:30 pm, Speicher XI, 8, 28217 Bremen See also: [1]http://www.reverbnation.com/palcacer Enjoy, Mathias -- References 1. http://www.reverbnation.com/palcacer To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] AW: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Séparé
More often than not the answer will be that there is no difference, separes always starting from below. My individual opinion is, though, that you can very well try to take \ as implying a start from the upper line (as long as you keep the voices). Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von ziv braha Gesendet: Montag, 31. Januar 2011 12:33 An: baroque-lute mailing-list Betreff: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Séparé Dear Colleagues, I'm working now on the Leipzig II 6.14 Ms. and find there two sorts of separe signs: / and \ The first is the usual you see everywhere and where i tend to think the breaking begins with the lower note. But does the second sign means that the breaking starts from the top note? Any ideas? Many thanks, Ziv Utengasse 16 4058 Basel Mobile: +41 (0)77 441 53 06 [1]www.zivbraha.com [2]A Garden of Eloquence -- References 1. http://www.zivbraha.com/ 2. http://www.wix.com/AGardenOfEloquence/A-Garden-of-Eloquence To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: new piece of the month
Most exceptional thank you, Martin! Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Martin Shepherd Gesendet: Sonntag, 30. Januar 2011 17:19 An: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] new piece of the month Dear All, With one day to go, here is January's piece of the month: www.luteshop.co.uk/month/pieceofthemonth.htm - played on a new all-gut strung 7c lute (67cm, after Venere C36). I hope you like it. Best wishes, Martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RV93 materials?
Hello Eugene, Thank you for clarifying this! It's true there is no discernable difference between the two-staff-systems with solo music and with ensemble music in dalla Casa, at first glance. That's why I first took the pieces, signed with mandolin, to be arrangements of ensemble music for the solo lute. Yet once I tried them, I soon noticed voice crossings between the staffs all over the pieces. Last September, I was lucky enough to play some of the music with Susanne Herre, mandolin. She is a marvelous player, and I realized that so is the music. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Eugene C. Braig IV Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. Januar 2011 18:19 An: 'Lute List' Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Greetings Mathias, I suspect you are familiar but for those without facsimile on hand, the Dalla Casa pieces mostly specify only arcileuto francese and are in two-staff systems. Where ensemble music is specified, it states mandolino or mandola with accompaniment by arcileuto francese. The duo music is also in two-staff systems with no discernable difference from the assumed solo music. Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of T-Online Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:49 AM To: 'Lute List' Subject: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? Dalla Casa can be taken as ensemble music, not all of it is solo. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von howard posner Gesendet: Montag, 3. Januar 2011 22:08 An: Lute List Betreff: [LUTE] Re: RV93 materials? On Jan 3, 2011, at 12:16 PM, franco pavan wrote: Only a word about the notation. We have hundreds of pieces for italian archlute from the XVIII-Century. All the pieces are written with the same notation used by Vivaldi. It was the common way in Italy to write the music for our instrument until the time of Rossini. Greetings Franco I think by pieces for Italian archlute Franco means ensemble music. There is solo archlute music in tablature, such as Zamboni's book. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Mimo in action
Thx for this one!!! Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. Januar 2011 00:38 An: alexander Cc: Ron Andrico; howardpos...@ca.rr.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Mimo in action http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_Cwe_pz0Uo -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
alwardy möchte Sie auf diesen eBay-Artikel aufmerksam machen:sehr rare alte Wandergitarre mit Lautenhals - Laute (Artikelnummer: 7317490370)
Bitte beachten Sie, dass es sich bei dieser E-Mail um eine vom System verse ndete Information handelt. Bitte antworten Sie nicht auf diese E-Mail. Bei Fragen an unseren Kundenservice klicken Sie bitte auf den folgenden Link od er kopieren Sie ihn in Ihren Browser: http://pages.ebay.de/help/contact_inl ine/index.html - alwardy m=F6chte Sie auf diesen eBay-Artikel aufmerksam machen: (Artikelnum mer. Pers=F6nliche Mitteilung: a little weird, perhaps... Rufen Sie diesen Artikel bei eBay auf: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItemitem=7317490370ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:DE:1 - sehr rare alte Wandergitarre mit Lautenhals - Laute Artikelnummer: 7317490370 - Verk=E4ufer: jannana(2107) Positive Bewertungen:99,8% Mitglied seit 01.04.99 in Deutschland Startpreis: EUR=A01,00 - Verbleibende Zeit: 9 Tage 8 Stunden Angebotsdauer: 10-Tage Angebotsende: 02.05.0519:59:00 MESZ Artikelstandort: Grub am Forst bei Coburg Deutschland Versand nach: Weltweit - Zusammenfassung Die Bilder zeigen eigentlich sehr sch=F6n den Zustand der Gitarre oder Laut e. Sie ist naturlich alt und gebraucht. Sie ist naturlich alt und ich w ei=DF nicht, ob noch jemand drauf spielen will, aber sie sieht sehr ausgefa llen aus. Unten ist sie wie eine Gitarre und oben hat sie einen alten Laute nhals. Wie das Instrument genau hei=DFt, wei=DF ich nicht. Die Gitarre ist nbsp;81 cm lang. Falls Ihr noch irgendwelche Fragen zu dem Artikel habt, dann ruft oder mail t mich bitte an, bevor ihr bietet, um eure Fragen zu kl=E4ren, damit Ihr sp =E4ter nicht entt=E4uscht seid, weil die Ware anders ist, als Ihr sie euch vorgestellt habt. Meine Telefonnummer 09560- 921080. Wenn ihr noch mehr Bilder m=F6chtet, dann k=F6nnt ihr sie ebenfalls bei mir anfordern. Schreibt mir bitte, welches Detail ihr aufgenommen haben m=F6ch tet, dann schicke ich euch die Bilder zu. Das Kleingedruckte: Versandkosten:nbsp;nbsp;nbsp; K=E4ufer ubernimmt die tats=E4chlichen V ersandkosten nach den Gebuhren der deutschen Post. Ebay ich Verpackungskosten:nbsp; Kleine Artikel verschicke ich ohne zus=E4tzliche V erpackungskosten. (z.B. Fl=F6ten, Klarinetten, kleinere Artikel unter 5 kg, .)nbsp; Fur gro=DFe oder schwere Artikel kaufe ich immer einen fest en Karton, damit die Waren auch wohlbehalten ankommen. Der Karton und die d azugeh=F6rigen Verpackungsmaterialien kosten 5 Euro, die ich auf den Endver kaufspreis aufschlagen mu=DF. Diese 5 Euro werden aber nur berechnet, wenn ein solcher Karton benutzt wird und ich fur die Artikel ausergew=F6hlich viel Verpackungsmaterial ben=F6tige. (z.B. fur Geigen, Akkordien, Gitarre n, Posaunen, Saxofone, gro=DFe Artikel uber 10kg..). Ich bemuhe mic h die Waren m=F6glichst kostengunstig zu verschicken. Bitte fragt im Zwei felsfall nach, ob die Verpackung etwas kosten und wieviel. Gew=E4hrleistung:nbsp;nbsp; Da ich uberwiegend Gebrauchtwaren verkaufe, werden die unter Ausschlu=DF jeglicher Gew=E4hrleistung verkauft. Sollten sie allerdings nach Erhalt der Ware M=E4ngel feststellen, die nicht in der Beschreibung standen (was nicht beabsichtigt ist und schon mal vorkommen ka nn), dann setzen sie sich bitte umgehend mit mir in Verbindung, damit wir e ine L=F6sung finden k=F6nnen, die uns beide zufrieden stellen kann. For my international bidders. I sell mainly used instruments of all kinds. I will send in every country. If you have questions about this item, let me know and I will send you a description in english.nbsp;The instrument is one of the following: Fiddle ? violin ? transverse flute ? horn ? horns ? bugles ? hunting horn ? piano accordion ? concertina ? clarinet ? trombone ? tenor horn ? bandonio n ? double bass ? contrabass ? mandolin ? mouth organ ? saxophone ? sax ? t rumpet ? drum ? guitar ? cornet ? flugelhorn - bassoonNaturlich haben sie bei meinen Auktionen falls die Ware anders ist als beschrieben ein Ruckg aberecht und haben die gesetzliche Wiederrufsfrist von 2 Wochen. Erstellt durch eBay Turbo Lister - Schutzen Sie sich vor betrugerischen E-Mails. Mehr zum Thema unter http://pages.ebay.de/education/spooftutorial. Der Absender dieser E-Mail meint, dass Sie dieser Artikel interessieren k=F6nnte Sie k=F6nnen diese E-Mail bei http://pages.ebay.de/help/policies/r fe-spam-ov.html als unerwunschte E-Mail melden. Mehr
