[LUTE] The lute list is retiring soon

[Stewart McCoy]

Hello Wayne,

Thank you very much indeed for the lute list. It has been extremely 
beneficial to a great many people. It has helped us learn all sorts of 
things about the lute and its music, share our knowledge with others, and 
make friends with people all over the world. You have created something 
valuable, which I hope will continue somehow after you have left Dartmouth 
College. Good luck in your forthcoming retirement.


Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message- 
From: Wayne

Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 8:04 PM
To: lute net
Subject: [LUTE] The lute list is retiring soon

Hi -

 I have been running this lute mail list since 1998, and it has been 
interesting and fun.  Now I am retiring from my job at Dartmouth College, 
and when I retire the computers that I have run will be shut down.  This 
includes the  mail servers that run the lute mail list.  So it is time to 
retire from running the lute mail list too.  I will also be closing my lute 
web page, my lute tablature page, and "Lutes For Sale" web page.


 If someone wants to take up running the lute mail list I suggest that they 
announce it on my list in the next month, while my list is still running. 
My list runs using software that I wrote, and I don’t recommend that someone 
else try to use it.  I don’t know the last day yet, but I will make an 
announcement when my list actually closes.


  Wayne




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[LUTE] Ballard 1612

[Stewart McCoy]

Thanks, Jean-Marie.Denise Launay's book sounds good, so I've ordered a copy 
from an Oxfam shop. The book should arrive in a few days.


Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: Jean-Marie Poirier

Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2020 8:17 AM
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ballard 1612

Incidentally, on this topic of airs spirituels in France in the 17th 
century, the French musicologist Denise Launay on her book « La Musique 
Religieuse en France du Concile de Trente à 1804 » dévotes a whole chapter, 
with lots of examples, to these collections for one voice with or without 
bass...


Happy reading,
Jean-Marie

Le 2 févr. 2020 à 00:40, Stewart McCoy  a 
écrit :


Thanks, Rainer. Much appreciated.

There are some other interesting books to be found at the same library. If
you click on "Rechercher" and do a search for "luth", you'll find more 
tablature with a copy of Piccinini.  There is also an interesting looking 
collection of songs by Chancy. Most intriguing are three song collections

(in one volume) by François Berthod, who flourished in the 1650s. He took
songs by well-known French composers, and replaced their words with a
spiritual text. There is a brief Wiki article about him. On the title page 
of his books there is a left-handed lute-player with a six-string (single 
courses) lute. All the songs are for two voices - treble and bass - with 
both parts texted. There are no figures for the bass part, yet a chordal 
accompaniment on a lute or theorbo should nevertheless be possible.


I would be interested to know what the songs are, to which Berthod set his 
spiritual text. There is no way of knowing from Berthod's collection, and 
although the library mentions composers like Bacilly and Le Camus, they 
don't seem to say who wrote which songs, and what the original words were.


Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message- From: Rainer
Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:09 PM
To: Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Ballard 1612

https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3446

Click under "Télécharger"

Rainer



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[LUTE] Ballard 1612

[Stewart McCoy]

Many thanks, Andreas. I've downloaded the two appendices, which are a mine 
of information, and which will keep me busy for some time.


Good luck with your talk to the Lute Society.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: Andreas Schlegel

Sent: Sunday, February 2, 2020 10:53 AM
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ballard 1612

  There's an important article on that topic by François-Pierre Goy:

  LA PRATIQUE DE LA PARODIE SPIRITUELLE DANS UN MONASTÈRE TROYEN AU XVIIe
  SIÈCLE les � Cantiques spirituels faits à la Visitassion Ste Marie 
�

  (F-T Ms. 1686)
  The book can be ordered here:
  [1]http://societe-champenoise-de-musicologie.org/Cahiers_remois_de_musi
  cologie.html
  Scroll to the third book.
  There are links to the two annexes which include some Airs with
  parodies by Berthod.
  On next Saturday I will speak at the Lute Society Meeting and play from
  the von Erlach lute book. The topic of the „travel" of melodies is one
  important part of my mini-recital at 11:30.
  [2]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/meetings
  I hope to see you there!
  Andreas

  Am 02.02.2020 um 00:37 schrieb Stewart McCoy
  :

  Thanks, Rainer. Much appreciated.
  There are some other interesting books to be found at the same library.
  If
  you click on "Rechercher" and do a search for "luth", you'll find more
  tablature with a copy of Piccinini.  There is also an interesting
  looking collection of songs by Chancy. Most intriguing are three song
  collections
  (in one volume) by François Berthod, who flourished in the 1650s. He
  took
  songs by well-known French composers, and replaced their words with a
  spiritual text. There is a brief Wiki article about him. On the title
  page of his books there is a left-handed lute-player with a six-string
  (single courses) lute. All the songs are for two voices - treble and
  bass - with both parts texted. There are no figures for the bass part,
  yet a chordal accompaniment on a lute or theorbo should nevertheless be
  possible.
  I would be interested to know what the songs are, to which Berthod set
  his spiritual text. There is no way of knowing from Berthod's
  collection, and although the library mentions composers like Bacilly
  and Le Camus, they don't seem to say who wrote which songs, and what
  the original words were.
  Best wishes,
  Stewart.
  -Original Message- From: Rainer
  Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:09 PM
  To: Lute net
  Subject: [LUTE] Ballard 1612
  https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3446
  Click under "Télécharger"
  Rainer
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  Andreas Schlegel
  Eckstr. 6
  CH-5737 Menziken
  Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
  Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
  i...@lutecorner.ch

  --

References

  1. 
http://societe-champenoise-de-musicologie.org/Cahiers_remois_de_musicologie.html
  2. https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/meetings 

[LUTE] Ballard 1612

[Stewart McCoy]

Thanks, Rainer. Much appreciated.

There are some other interesting books to be found at the same library. If
you click on "Rechercher" and do a search for "luth", you'll find more 
tablature with a copy of Piccinini.  There is also an interesting looking 
collection of songs by Chancy. Most intriguing are three song collections

(in one volume) by François Berthod, who flourished in the 1650s. He took
songs by well-known French composers, and replaced their words with a
spiritual text. There is a brief Wiki article about him. On the title page 
of his books there is a left-handed lute-player with a six-string (single 
courses) lute. All the songs are for two voices - treble and bass - with 
both parts texted. There are no figures for the bass part, yet a chordal 
accompaniment on a lute or theorbo should nevertheless be possible.


I would be interested to know what the songs are, to which Berthod set his 
spiritual text. There is no way of knowing from Berthod's collection, and 
although the library mentions composers like Bacilly and Le Camus, they 
don't seem to say who wrote which songs, and what the original words were.


Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: Rainer

Sent: Saturday, February 1, 2020 4:09 PM
To: Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Ballard 1612

https://mazarinum.bibliotheque-mazarine.fr/ark:/61562/mz3446

Click under "Télécharger"

Rainer



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Antonio,

I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' 
_Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. 
However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there 
under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: 
http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png 
. The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute 
music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to 
clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), 
unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of 
the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in 
character. I would be very interested to know what the music is.


There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could 
you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin 
heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as 
Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky 
performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) 
than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in 
the vihuela books.


Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: Antonio Corona

Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

Dear Stewart

What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very 
much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so,


Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing.

Best wishes,
Antonio








On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy 
 wrote:






Dear Antonio,

A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread.

Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for
guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus
Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute
tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course
guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: Antonio Corona
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

Dear G. C.

As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by
Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by
the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information
about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with
the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which
are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans
before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed
a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán,
his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a
las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen).  Valid questions would then be:
what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit
this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not
have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of!
 mind, but not to our knowledge.

Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are
no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique
condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment
but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán
used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous
publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that
is all I can find in common.

Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing
any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available
evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I
step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet.

Best wishes
Antonio

P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of
Milán´s pieces?








On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. 
wrote:





 I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in
 Valencian hands at the time)
 (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating
 to think of what influences were at work there.)
 G.

 On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in
   a
 general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Antonio,

A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread.

Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for 
guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus 
Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute 
tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course 
guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's.


Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message- 
From: Antonio Corona

Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA

Dear G. C.

As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by 
Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by 
the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information 
about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with 
the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which 
are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans 
before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed 
a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, 
his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a 
las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen).  Valid questions would then be: 
what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit 
this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not 
have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of!

 mind, but not to our knowledge.

Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are 
no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique 
condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment 
but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán 
used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous 
publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that 
is all I can find in common.


Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing 
any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available 
evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I 
step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet.


Best wishes
Antonio

P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of 
Milán´s pieces?









On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C.  
wrote:






  I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in
 Valencian hands at the time)
 (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating
 to think of what influences were at work there.)
 G.

 On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in
   a
 general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing
   around
 the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and
 (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his
 surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained
   yet. Not
 to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an
   improvement
 (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on.
   Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of
   honour and
   ownership for one of the early vihuelists here?
   Just intrigued
   G.
   --
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   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 --

References

 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Dd.5.20

[Stewart McCoy]

Rainer,

Before he died, Ian Harwood wrote a book on the English consort. He talked 
to me about it, and gave me some of it to read to see what I thought. What I 
saw was excellent - a lifetime's work - but he died before finishing it. 
However, it was in a fairly advanced stage, and I thought someone was going 
to finish it for him and get it published. Sadly that seems not to have 
happened.


Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: Rainer

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 7:15 PM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dd.5.20

On 25.08.2019 19:37, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:

Unfortunately not, so far, Stewart...

Le 25/08/2019 à 19:29, Stewart McCoy a écrit :
The book was to have been published posthumously, but I don't know if it 
ever was.


Which book?

Rainer



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[LUTE] Dd.5.20

[Stewart McCoy]

We refer to the Cambridge consort manuscripts as if the four extant volumes 
now in Cambridge belonged to one set of books. In fact it is more likely 
that there were two separate sets, each of which had two of the extant 
part-books. I can't remember off the back of my head how the books are 
paired up. I should say that this is not my hypothesis. It was Ian Harwood 
who worked it out, and told me about it before he died. Details will be in 
his book on the English consort. The book was to have been published 
posthumously, but I don't know if it ever was.


Stewart McCoy

-Original Message- 
From: Jean-Marie Poirier

Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2019 12:39 PM
To: Rainer
Cc: Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Dd.5.20

Lyle’s mistake obviously!
I have a good copy from the library and “Holburnes farewell” in on folio 6r!
Best,
Jean-Marie


Le 25 août 2019 à 11:26, Rainer  a écrit :

Dear lute netters,

I wonder if anybody out there is familiar with the Cambridge consort books 
and may be able to help me.


I have downloaded a digital copy of Dd.5.20/21 (bound together) from the 
LSA web site.


Now I am comparing the books with entries in my Holborne edition and 
Nordstrom's article published in the LSA journal in 1972.


Something is decidedly wrong here:

According to Nordstom (page 87 of his article) Holborne's Farewell appears 
in Dd.5.20 on f. 5r.
In my digital copy it appears on folio 6r. My first thought was that the 
MS might have two different foliations-one of them not visible in the poor 
digital copy.


However: According to Nordstrom (page 82) Callinoe appears in Dd.5.20 on 
folios 3, 5 and 6, which matches the foliation in my digital copy.


Any idea anybody?

Rainer




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[LUTE] De Visee

[Stewart McCoy]

In discussing the plucking of strings with or without nails, I think it is 
important to keep Thomas Mace, _Musick's Monument_ (1676) in mind. He was, 
of course, referring to the lute, not the guitar, but I think his remarks on 
page 73 are relevant for both plucked instruments:


"But in the doing of This, take notice, that you strike not your Strings 
with your Nails, as some do, who maintain it the Best way of Play, but I do 
not; and for This Reason; because the Nail cannot draw so sweet a Sound from 
a Lute, as the nibble end of the Flesh can do.


I confess in a Consort, it might do well enough, where the Mellowness (which 
is the most Excellent satisfaction from a Lute) is lost in the Crowd; but 
Alone, I could never receive so good Content from the Nail, as from the 
Flesh; However (This being my Opinion) let Others do, as seems Best to 
Themselves."


Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message- 
From: Roland Hayes

Sent: Monday, May 6, 2019 11:34 PM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] De Visee

  Do we think he played with nails? Lutenists did not as I understand,
  but

  I have always thought his lute pieces were merely arrangements of
  guitar/theorbo pieces. For those instruments we can establish the use
  of nails.

  And if deVisee played guitar with nails, then he most likely played
  theorbo with nails as well. Yes? Glue on nails had yet to arrive on the
  scene.

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[LUTE] Music stands

[Stewart McCoy]

Martin,

There I was, waiting in the vestry of a church before a concert, wondering 
how on earth I could cope with a piece of music four pages long. Turning 
pages was not an option. I had to be able to see all four pages without 
page-turns. Unfortunately the fold-out arms of my old music stand would no 
longer stick out sideways to support the outer pages. The joints had become 
loose, so the arms just flopped down, as if struck by brewer's droop. What 
could I do to solve the problem, with only a few minutes before the concert 
began? I looked around in despair, but there was only the cupboard where the 
vicar's vestments were hanging. What could I find there to help me? Ah! Coat 
hangers! Just the job! They were ideal, made of thin, bendy wire. I borrowed 
two, and hooked them over the top of my folder, so that they were concealed 
from the audience, apart from bits of wire sticking out sideways from the 
folder, offering just enough support for the first and fourth pages. It 
worked a treat, and the concert was a resounding success.


Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: Ron Andrico

Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 11:06 PM
To: Martin Shepherd ; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: music stands

  Martin, for those longer multi-page pieces on a folding stand, I like
  to use a rigid piece of black foam-core board, cut to whatever length
  you like.  Eminently functional and looks elegant from a few feet away.

  RA
__

  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
  of Martin Shepherd 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 3:47 PM
  To: Lute List
  Subject: [LUTE] music stands

  Can anyone recommend a good traditional metal music stand?  I don't
  mean
  the very heavy orchestral stand, just a "normal" fold-out one.  I ask
  because it seems that they're all made in China and are flimsy and
  unstable.  I have one (I think it's Stagg) where the top attaches to
  the
  rest with just one rivet, so it just wobbles.
  I need the little fold-out arms so I can see three-page pieces, too.
  Thanks for any advice,
  M
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[LUTE] Dowland's Courante

[Stewart McCoy]

   This evening I had the pleasure of playing Dowland's "Were every
   thought an eye" from his Pilgrimes Solace (1612). It seemed very
   familiar, and then I recognised it as Dowland's Courante in Thomas
   Simpson's Taffel-Consort (1621). I didn't know of this concordance. I
   can find no mention of it in Diana Poulton's book John Dowland, and no
   mention in the introduction to the Scolar Press facsimile of A
   Pilgrimes Solace. Have I discovered something new, or is it already
   common knowledge?

   Stewart McCoy

   --


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[LUTE] Johann Kropfgans

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear Roland,

   There are some trios for lute, violin and cello by Johann Kropfgans in
   Brussels, Bibliothèque Royale de Belgique Albert 1er, Ms. II. 4088.

   Information about the manuscript is given by Wolfgang Boetticher,
   Handschriftlich Ãberlieferte Lauten- und Gitarrentabulaturen des 15.
   bis 18. Jahrhunderts, RISM Bvii (Munich: G. Henle Verlag, 1978), pp.
   62-3.

   Incipits of the separate movements may be found on line at

   [1]http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=B-Br4088=eng
   str=all=10

   which you could use to see if any of it matches the music on the CD.

   Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Ms. II. 4088 sitting on my shelves
   here at home, although I do have copies of Ms. II. 4087 and Ms. II.
   4089. They are faint xeroxes once owned by Diana Poulton, and sold off
   by Robert Spencer after her death. The xeroxes were in poor condition
   when I acquired them, and on one part of Ms. II. 4089, Robert Spencer
   has written, "illegible give away". As with other xeroxes owned by
   Diana Poulton, they are bound with a white plastic ring binder and
   given a thick paper cover in red or grey. It is interesting to see what
   she worked from, and although these documents would have been in better
   condition when she first had them, she would not have had the sort of
   detail we are used to now with computer images.

   Best wishes,

   Stewart.



   -Original Message-
   From: Roland Hayes
   Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 2:03 AM
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu ; mar...@gmlutz.de
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Johann Kropfgans

  Apologies. I meant trio for lute violin and cello. r
__

  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
   behalf
  of Markus Lutz <mar...@gmlutz.de>
  Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 7:11:22 PM
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Roland Hayes
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Johann Kropfgans

  In one of the lexika of the end of the 18th or beginning of the 19th
  century there is a remark, that Johann Kropfgans wrote 32 lute
   trios,
  but I cannot say at the moment, in which one it is written.
  We only have some complete trios in Brusseles and in Berlin.
  In Brusseles there probably are some even written by himself.
  Best regards
  Markus
  Am 15.05.2018 um 23:43 schrieb Arthur Ness:
  > Hi Stephen,
  >
  > You got it ! ! !
  >
  > 
  >
  > 12 Trios lute, violin à ¢cello in B-Br Ms II 4088.  Also the
  Pichler
  > piece in Ms II 4087 (viii) according to Tim Crawford.
  >
  > Meyer, Christian. "Les Manuscrits De Luth Du Fonds FÃÆÃ ©tis
  (Bruxelles,
  > BibliothÃÆÃ ¨que Royale Albert Ier, Mss II 4086-4089)." Revue
   Belge
  De
  > Musicologie / Belgisch Tijdschrift Voor Muziekwetenschap, vol.
  50,
  > 1996, pp. 197Ã ¢216. JSTOR, JSTOR,
   [1]www.jstor.org/stable/3687046.
  >
  > Also listed with complete titles in Boetticher's RISM VII
  inventory,
  > pp. 62-4. These were from the FÃÆÃ ©tis collection and may
   have been
  > acquired from the Breitkopf auction of 1832 (can't find my
  notes). The
  > catalogue is extremely rare, but is about 1 Ã ½ inches
   thick.***
  > Breitkopf decided to empty their warehouse of outmoded music.
  What a
  > treasure!!  Unique copies of some of the Bach lute pieces were
  among
  > the offering.
  >
  > Stephan Olbertz, "An Unknown Lute Piece in a Keyboard
   Manuscript
  with
  > Works by Wilhelm Friedemann Bach," JLSA 44 (2012): 1-22.
  >
  > ***Copy in the University Library, Amsterdam (NO Longer in the
  > Amsterdam public library).
  > Enjoy, Roland!
  >
  >
  >
  >  Arthur Ness
  >
  > arthurjn...@verizon.net
  >
  > -Original Message-
  > From: Stephan Olbertz <stephan.olbe...@web.de>
  > To: 'Lute Net' <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  > Sent: Tue, May 15, 2018 4:24 pm
  > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Johann Kropfgans
  > Think of the galant lute trio like a piano trio... You get the
  idea ;-)
  > Best
  >     Stephan
  > -UrsprÃÆÃ ¼ngliche Nachricht-
  > Von: lute-[2]a...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  [[3]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
  > Im Auftrag von Stewart McCoy
  > Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Mai 2018 21:05
  > An: Lute Net
  > Betreff: [LUTE] Johann Kropfgans
  > Dear Roland,
  > IÃÆà ¢Ã 

[LUTE] Johann Kropfgans

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear Roland,

   I’m afraid I don’t know about these trios by Johann Kropfgans, but I
   would very much like to know more about them. I see from a quick search
   on the internet that Kropfgans wrote chamber music for the lute, violin
   and cello, including one in C minor, but I see no evidence of lute
   trios. It is possible that Lutz Kirchhof made his own lute trio
   arrangements from those chamber music pieces, but I’m only guessing.
   Hopefully you’ll be able to find out more.

   Best wishes,

   Stewart.

   From: [1]Roland Hayes
   Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 7:10 PM
   To: [2]Wayne ; [3]Stewart McCoy
   Cc: [4]lute net
   Subject: Johann Kropfgans

   He wrote 32 lute trios? What are the sources? I just heard one in c
   minor w/ Lutz Kerchoff. Outstanding!! r

   --

References

   1. mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org
   2. mailto:wst...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:lu...@tiscali.co.uk
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu


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[LUTE] The article by Annette Otterstedt about David Dolata's book about tuning

[Stewart McCoy]

   Having read David Dolata's book, and reviewed it for the Viola da Gamba
   Society, I was disappointed to read Annette Otterstedt's unkind review.
   Dolata produces a lot of evidence to show that unequal temperaments
   were used in the past for fretted instruments. For example, vihuelists
   advised moving the fourth fret for pieces which required a flat note on
   the second course â g' flat for an instrument in g' â instead of f'#
   required for other pieces. Otterstedt ignores this, and in her first
   paragraph dismisses the whole idea of frets being moved, because she
   does not know of a surviving instrument with marks on the neck. I
   wonder how many surviving vihuelas she has examined.

   Dolata argues the case for unequal fretting on viols, at least when
   they are played with an organ, because organs were not tuned in equal
   temperament. Otterstedt seems to be saying that viols would have been
   tuned in equal temperament, and so would have been deliberately out of
   tune with the organ. I don't see the sense in this. According to Thomas
   Mace (Musick's Monument, (1676), p. 242), one of the reasons for having
   an organ was to help keep the viols in tune: "Because the Organ stands
   us in stead of a Holding, Uniting-Constant-Friend; and is as a
   Touch-stone, to try the certainty of All Things; especially the
   Well-keeping the Instruments in Tune, " Of course there will be
   problems with some enharmonic notes, because the position of one fret
   affects all six strings, but I find it hard to imagine a viol player
   ignoring Mace's advice, ignoring the organ, and doggedly sticking to
   his own tuning.

   I like Dolata's book, and although I could find fault with some things
   â for example, I find his chatty style of writing a distraction, and I
   prefer to talk about "unequal temperament" rather than meantone
   temperament" for fretted instruments â there is a wealth of information
   for us to examine, and much food for thought. Dolata's aim is to
   encourage today's players to think about temperament and to use unequal
   fretting systems themselves, and he deserves credit for that. I tried
   accessing Otterstedt's review on line again this morning, but without
   success. Apparently it is now "forbidden".

   Stewart McCoy


   --


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[LUTE] Ballard 1614

[Stewart McCoy]

My thanks too to Rainer and Ralf.

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message- 
From: Ron Andrico 
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2018 2:48 AM 
To: Lute List 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ballard 1614 


  Thanks, Rainer and thanks Ralf.
  RA
__

  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
  of Ralf Mattes <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
  Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 10:41 PM
  To: Nancy Carlin
  Cc: Lute List
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Ballard 1614

  Am Donnerstag, 11. Januar 2018 21:41 CET, Nancy Carlin
  <na...@nancycarlinassociates.com> schrieb:

  > About that download button - can you tell those of us who don't read
  > Russian, how to do this?
  I've put up a download link of a combined version here:
   [1]https://glarean.mh-freiburg.de/seafile/d/2025ae20089942bd90aa/
  Note: this link will be up for the next 10 days.
   Cheers, RalfD
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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  www.cs.dartmouth.edu
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  with a Subject: of "subscribe" to lute-requ...@cs.dartmouth.edu and
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  --

References

  1. https://glarean.mh-freiburg.de/seafile/d/2025ae20089942bd90aa/
  2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Vatican Library

[Stewart McCoy]

Many thanks, David. Much appreciated.

Stewart McCoy

-Original Message- 
From: David Smith

Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2017 1:34 AM
To: Jean-Marie Poirier
Cc: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vatican Library

And just so the accolades can continu:. I have downloaded the files for both 
4145 and 4177. The "download" button on the page creates unusable images, 
so, each of these is screen captured at the largest resolution I have 
available and then I did some editing to try to size them to be usable. I 
hope they are useful.


They can both be found at http://www.dolcesfogato.com/Music/ and search for 
Barberini.


Please let me know if there is more complete information on either of these. 
I found minimal from the Vatican.


Regards
David

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf 
Of Jean-Marie Poirier

Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 8:56 AM
Cc: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vatican Library

  I did not mean to press David Smith and I do agree that he must be
  thanked for all the services rendered to our community !

  Jean-Marie

  Le 24 nov. 2017 à 15:53, Ron Andrico <[1]praelu...@hotmail.com> a
  écrit :

  David Smith may be a wizard with technology but I believe he has to
  laboriously download each page and compile a pdf for general use.  This
  is a very time-consuming process, particularly when downloading from
  the Vatican library since one must recite an Ave Maria and Pater Noster
  for each page.

  Seriously, David may or may not have the time or inclination to produce
  a complete pdf for this digitized manuscript, but he is to be roundly
  applauded for all the work he has done and made available so far.
  RA
__

  From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
  behalf of Jean-Marie Poirier <[4]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr>
  Sent: Friday, November 24, 2017 1:00 PM
  To: 'Lute List'
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vatican Library

  ..David Smith, maybe, who seems to be a wizard for downloading whole
  files ??? ;-)
  Jean-Marie
  --

  >Thank you Magnus !
  >No way the whole ms. can be downloaded except page by page ?
  >
  >Best,
  >Jean-Marie
  >
  >
  >--
  >
  >>   Dear Lute friends,
  >>   I don �t know whether this is common knowledge already,
  >>   but I was very happy to see that the Vatican has digitized many
  >>   manuscripts-
  >>   among them Barberini lat. 4145, 4177.
  >>   [1][5]https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4145
  >>   [2][6]https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4177
  >>   Happy plucking and strumming,
  >>   Magnus
  >>
  >>   --
  >>
  >>References
  >>
  >>   1. [7]https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4145
  >>   2. [8]https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4177
  >>
  >>
  >>To get on or off this list see list information at
  >>[9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  [10]Lute Mail list technical information
  [11]www.cs.dartmouth.edu
  How do I get on the lute mail list? To get on the mail list, send email
  with a Subject: of "subscribe" to [12]lute-requ...@cs.dartmouth.edu and
  your name will be added to ...
  >
  >

  --

References

  1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com
  2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  4. mailto:jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
  5. https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4145
  6. https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4177
  7. https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4145
  8. https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Barb.lat.4177
  9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/
 12. mailto:lute-requ...@cs.dartmouth.edu

[LUTE] Bad lute music

[Stewart McCoy]

A lute walks into a bar: "Tonight's programme will be entertaining - we've 
got to get through 300 bars, and there aren't many rests."
A lute walks into a bar: "Oops! Sorry, I didn't see you. I thought I was in 
the Thibault manuscript."
A lute walks into a bar: "I'd like six courses, and there must be a rose on 
the table."

A lute walks into a bar: "I came just in case."
A lute walks into a bar: "Do you have spare ribs?"
A lute walks into a bar: "My mate Dowland fancies a Barley wine."
A lute walks into a bar in Holborne: "Where's the loo?"
A lute walks into a bar in Germany: "What's up? Are you short of staff?"

Stewart McCoy

-Original Message- 
From: Ron Andrico

Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 2:09 PM
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad lute music

   A lute walks into a bar: "I'd like to order a small Frei, please."
   A lute walks into a bar: "I'm under a lot of tension, I just stopped
  by to unwind."
   A lute walks into a bar: "Is this what may be called a loose bar?"
   A lute walks into a bar: "Don't fret, I'm here to tie one on."
   A lute walks into a bar: "I'd better stop, I think my table is
  bulging."
   A lute walks into a bar: "I'll have a double course."
__

  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
  of howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com>
  Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 4:26 AM
  To: Tristan von Neumann
  Cc: lutelist Net
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad lute music

  On Nov 12, 2017, at 7:45 PM, Tristan von Neumann
  <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
  >
  >
  > Am 11.11.2017 um 18:51 schrieb Alain Veylit:
  > Anyone with a good ending for: A lute walks into a bar
  >> ...?
  >
  > How about those:
  >
  > A lute walks into a bar: "I'll have a large beer please. No mug, I
  have a bowl."
  >
  > A lute walks into a bar. The barkeeper: "Why all those frets?"
  >
  > A lute walks into a bar. The barkeeper: "You have the guts to show
  your face in here?"
  >
  > A lute walks into a bar. "Can I have a beer?" - "No way, you already
  have a loose nut."
  >
  > I apologize if they're not good, I'm German. :)
  Without question, the best lute-walks-into-a-bar jokes I’ve ever read.
  To get on or off this list see list information at
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  2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Tact

[Stewart McCoy]

Thomas Mace uses the word "slur" for ascending notes, and "slide" for 
descending notes. See _Musick's Monument_ (London, 1676), page 108.


Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message- 
From: Matthew Daillie

Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 8:26 PM
To: dc ; lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tact

Dear Dennis,

Do you need a modern term or one that would be contemporary with Marais?
If modern, the word 'slur' springs to mind.

Best wishes,

Matthew

On 23/10/2017 18:27, dc wrote:
Is there a word in English (and/or German) for what Marais calls the 
"tact" - sounding a note with the left hand only?


/Il est très necessaire que je m’explique icy au sujet du tact, cette 
piece tres particuliere se peut joüer de deux manieres, la premiere selon 
l’intention dans laquelle je l’ay compose, qui est chaque notte se fasse 
avec un des doigts de la main gauche, sans aucune participation de la 
droite, tous les quatre doigts peuvent servir selon la situation des 
differentes nottes, cette premiere maniere est tres difficille et tres 
fatiguante, car il faut que chaque coup de doigt, fasse un tact qui se 
puisse faire entendre, ceux qui ont quelque teinture du theorbe, ou du 
luht (sic) , sont plus surs d’y reussir que les autres, a moins que l’on n’en 
acquiert l’habitude par une longue pratique/.



Thanks.

Dennis





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[LUTE] Barbella's little cross

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear, Ralf, Howard and Roman,

Thank you for your thoughts on Barbella's little cross. I think Roman is 
probably right to say it means ten. It sometimes appears in places where the 
treble parts are a ninth and tenth above the bass, and doubling these notes 
an octave lower on a harpsichord (as a second and third) would be 
inappropriate.


Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message- 
From: Ralf Mattes

Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 8:51 AM
To: howard posner
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Barbella's little cross


Am Donnerstag, 28. September 2017 07:36 CEST, howard posner 
<howardpos...@ca.rr.com> schrieb:




> On Sep 26, 2017, at 12:57 PM, Stewart McCoy <lu...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> The cross cannot
>   mean a sharp ( # ), because there are plenty of those elsewhere in the
>   piece. Please can anyone explain what the little cross means?

It could mean the printer ran out of #’s in his font.


Serioius? The printer used moveable type in the late 18. century?

Cheers, Ralf Mattes










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[LUTE] Cythara Sacra

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

Thank you very much indeed for the Reymann collection of psalms, and for the 
other sources available on your site. It is much appreciated.


Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: David Smith

Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:36 AM
To: G. C. ; Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cythara Sacra

It is now posted at: http://www.dolcesfogato.com/Music/

David

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf 
Of G. C.

Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 7:56 AM
To: Lute net 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cythara Sacra

  Thanks Rainer, I did it the hard way.
  Finished converting and optimizing Reymann to one pdf file. Size is now
  117 Mb. I've asked David Smith if he could post it on his site and he
  has agreed. The optimum would of course be to improve it further into a
  file of single pages.
  G

  On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 4:40 PM, Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
  wrote:

I have no idea why most people hate deja vu format.
There is an excellent viewer: [2]https://windjview.sourceforge.io/
Extract all the files to a new directory and open the first (small
file) with WinDjView.
Converting the whole thing to a single pdf is extremely easy: Print
it form WinDjView with a virtual pdf printer.
Takes about 1 minute.
If anybody wants to post it on a web page, give me the details of
your drop box.
The file is a bit large: 580 MB.
Rainer

  On 11.09.2017 15:27, G. C. wrote:

The djvu encoding is really "crap" and requires a lot of work
via
several programs to convert to PDF. I'm in the process of doing
it.
G.
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References

  1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
  2. https://windjview.sourceforge.io/
  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Replete for 3 lutes

[Stewart McCoy]

I've not looked at the Replete for a long time, but I seem to remember that 
using a bass lute nominally in F works slightly better than a lute in D, 
because the music for the treble lutes nominally in G then falls better 
under the hand. The Brogyntyn Replete reproduces the lowest four voices of a 
six-voice piece, so it is a bit of a handful; dividing those four voices 
between two lutes, as Gordon suggests, is a good idea, and makes it easier 
to bring out melodic lines.


Stewart McCoy

-Original Message- 
From: Martin Shepherd

Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 10:32 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Replete for 3 lutes

I like Gordon's suggestion of a quartet arrangement, but if you need a
trio version you should consider playing the bass part on a bass lute in
D so the trebles fit more comfortably on two G lutes.

M 




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[LUTE] Shakespeare songs

[Stewart McCoy]

   Thanks, Ron. You confirm what I feared: that there are no 17th-century
   songs for two sopranos accompanied by lute or theorbo, which are
   associated with Shakespeare. Thanks for suggesting Robert Jones' Sweet
   Kate. Faute de mieux I was planning to use Jones' songs for two voices
   anyway, but hadn't thought about the Kate connection with The Taming of
   the Shrew, which is useful, however tenuous.

   Best wishes,

   Stewart.

   -Original Message-
   From: Ron Andrico
   Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 11:49 AM
   To: Lute Net
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Shakespeare songs

  Having researched the repertory of Shakespeare songs in some depth,
  there are no surviving songs for two trebles with a secure
   connection
  to the plays - at least none that come to mind.  You might make a
   case
  for "Sweet Kate of late ranne away", from Robert Jones, _A Musicall
  Dreame_ (1609).  While tenuous, the connection might be drawn to
   Kate
  in Shakespeare's _The taming of the Shrew _.

  Duffin's book should be approached with caution if you want useful
  performing editions.  While there are several securely attributed
   texts
  presented, most are very speculative, and all of the melodies to
   tunes
  are stripped of their accompanying parts.  Many texts are
   speculatively
  set to known Elizabethan ballad tunes using a computer program.  A
  human element in the form of a real singer should have been
   introduced
  into the equation.

  RA
__

  From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
   behalf
  of Stewart McCoy <lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
  Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 10:33 PM
  To: Lute Net
  Subject: [LUTE] Shakespeare songs

 I am looking for 17th-century songs associated with Shakespeare
   for
  two
 sopranos and lute (or theorbo), and would be grateful for any
 suggestions.
 Thanks,
 Stewart McCoy.
 --
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   --

[LUTE] Shakespeare songs

[Stewart McCoy]

   I am looking for 17th-century songs associated with Shakespeare for two
   sopranos and lute (or theorbo), and would be grateful for any
   suggestions.

   Thanks,

   Stewart McCoy.

   --


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[LUTE] Welde ms question

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Nancy,

The Welde lute book was never part of Robert Spencer's collection. He 
discovered the manuscript and wrote about it in the Lute Society Journal. As 
far as I know, the book is still owned by the family. When I went to the 
house at Willey Park to photograph the book with John Robinson and Ian 
Harwood, we met old Lord Forester shuffling around in his bedroom slippers. 
I offered to play him some of the music in his book, but he declined, saying 
gruffly, "No. I'm not a musician." Sad. I believe he has since died, but I 
don't know exactly who has become the new owner. I don't think the book has 
a reference number.


Best wishes,

Stewart,

-Original Message- 
From: Nancy Carlin

Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 5:53 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Welde ms question

Is the Welde manuscript one of the Robert Spencer collection, so now
transferred to the Royal College library?  Or is it still owned by Lord
Forrester?  Does it have a ms number?
Nancy

--
Nancy Carlin
Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org

PO Box 6499
Concord, CA 94524
USA
925 / 686-5800

www.groundsanddivisions.info
www.nancycarlinassociates.com



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[LUTE] Leonardo da Vinci

[Stewart McCoy]

   What evidence do we have that Leonardo da Vinci played the lute?

   Stewart McCoy

   --


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[LUTE] "The Kynges Balade"(??)

[Stewart McCoy]

   Omer,

   The words and music for Henry VIII's Pastime are at

   [1]http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/d/d3/IMSLP284506-PMLP
   374521-02-pastime---0-score.pdf

   Stewart McCoy

   -Original Message-
   From: Omer Katzir
   Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 5:25 AM
   To: List LUTELIST
   Subject: [LUTE] "The Kynges Balade"(??)

  so, I was looking for a quick lyrics of "Pastime with Good Company"
   and
  somehow I ended up in wikipedia, now, they claim it also called
   "The
  Kynges Balade" however, I couldn't find anything remotely close to
   this
  name.
  I went through several books, but yet again, nothing in that name.
  Now, I know wikipedia is full of errors, but this one (if an error)
  really annoying. Can anyone else give a source to their claim?
  Thanks.
  --
  Omer Katzir
  The Silent Troubadour
  [1]http://omerkatzir.com

  --

   References

  1. http://omerkatzir.com/


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   This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
   [2]www.avast.com

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References

   1. 
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/d/d3/IMSLP284506-PMLP374521-02-pastime---0-score.pdf
   2. 
https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient

[LUTE] Spencer Collection, Royal Academy of Music, London

[Stewart McCoy]

I think the Royal Academy paid £1,000,000 for the collection, which was 
probably a bit of a gift. Bob once told me that his books were his pension, 
and he would sell them off gradually as he needed money. The money from the 
RAM would have gone to his wife, Jill, to be her pension. It is sad that 
Bob's books are less accessible now than they were. When Bob was alive, 
you'd just go round to his house to see them. He was a generous man. He was 
keen for people to see his books, and would willingly make photocopies for 
you. He would bring originals to Lute Society meetings, and they would be 
passed round the room. That could never happen now.


Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: M Hall

Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 3:14 PM
To: 'WALSH STUART'
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spencer Collection, Royal Academy of Music, London

I'm not sure what the arrangements were.  Presumably it wasn't given to the
RAM free, gratis and for nothing. Probably other organizations would have
liked to get their hands on it.   To be honest I don't think the RAM was a
suitable location for it.   They don't or didn't have the facilities for
academic researchers.   Some of the entries in their catalogue are incorrect
too.   Their cataloguer doesn't seem to me to have the necessary expertise.
I pointed out some errors  to the librarian e.g. that there are two
different books by Corbetta titled "La guitarre royale" and the entry for
the Millioni book is all wrong - but as far as I know they have never been
corrected.  Bob taught at RAM but it would have been better if the
collection was given to the British Library.
Monica

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of WALSH STUART
Sent: 27 October 2015 11:21
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Spencer Collection, Royal Academy of Music, London

  I'm sure this quote from the Royal Academy of Music makes sense - but
  it seems puzzling. Did cash-rich museums/libraries abroad want to get
  the Collection and so money had to be raised in Britain to prevent it
  from being whisked away?
   The Spencer Collection was acquired by the Academy in 1998 with the
  help of the National Heritage Memorial Fund, Mrs Jill Spencer, the
  Britten-Pears Foundation and contributors to a public Appeal.
__

  [1]Avast logo

  This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
  [2]www.avast.com

  --

References

  1. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
  2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] Le bout de lan de Mr. Gautier

[Stewart McCoy]

Martin,

Le bout de lan literally means the end of the year. There is an apostrophe 
missing - it would be Le bout de l'an in modern French.


Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: Antony M Eastwell

Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 9:32 PM
To: Baroque Lute List
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Le bout de lan de Mr. Gautier

Dear All,

I’m wondering about the meaning of this title. Could anybody whose French is 
better than my 30 year old schoolboy Franglais, enlighten me?


With many thanks in advance

Martin



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[LUTE] Mass intabulation

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Monica,

I do like your interesting suggestion of intabulating just part of a mass -
just play passages where the music is reduced to two or three voices, so we
end up with odd bits from a large piece of music, say just bars 23-42, and
bars 69-93, and ignore all the rest. It seems utterly crazy, yet that is
exactly what happens in Lbl Add. MS 29246, one of the five extant lute books
of Edward Paston. He would have been familiar with vihuela sources.

-o-O-o-

Dear Jelle,

If you want to play a piece with too many parts to fit on a lute, arrange it
for two or three lutes. That makes it easier to sustain polyphonic lines,
and you don't end up with polyphony turned into a series of chords.

For example, if you have

_a__c__a__
__d___d___
__
__
__
__

in one voice, and

__c__a_a__c___
d_
__
__
__
__

in another, you end up with

__c__a__c__a__c___
__d_d_d___
__
__
__
__

The horizontal is obscured by the vertical: the effect on a single lute is
to lose the horizontal lines of two voices, and replace them with a series
of repeated chords.

Alternatively you could arrange the music you want to play, as lute songs, 
and find a friendly singer to share them with.


Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message- 
From: Monica Hall

Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2015 3:01 PM
To: Jelle Kalsbeek
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mass intabulation

I don't think anyone has ventured to arranged Machaut's mass for lute.  I
don't think it would be at all suitable.
As far as I know the only person foolish enough to try and arrange complete
masses by Josquin - for vihuela - is Pisador and his arrangements are not
much to write home about. I don't think Missa Pange lingua is one of them.
The less pretentious vihuelistas tend to arrange suitable movements, or
exerpts from movements - especially Fuenllana and and Valderrabano.   You
can find details in  Brown's Instrumental music printed before 1600.
If you want to do it yourself the thing to do is to look for suitable
passages where the number of voices is reduced to two or three.   These work
best.
Best
Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Jelle Kalsbeek jjwkalsb...@gmail.com

To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 2:17 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Mass intabulation



  Dear fellow lutenists,
  I love renaissance masses, like those of des Prez, Ockeghem,
  Palestrina, and Machaut. I have tried to make my own intabulations, but
  they leave something to be desired.
  I have a few questions related to this:
  -Do you have some intabulations of masses, or know where I can find
  them?
  I am especially looking for Machaut's Messe de Notre Dame and Josquin
  des Prez' Missa Pange lingua.
  -Are there books on intabulations and their related practise?A
  unrelated to the masses: Are there some books on (lute) improvisation?
  All the best,
  Jelle Kalsbeek

  --


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[LUTE] Archives

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Wayne,

Thank you very much for your help.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message- 
From: wayne cripps 
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2014 6:17 PM 
To: Stewart McCoy 
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Archives 



Hi Stewart -

 The Official lute mail list archives go back to the beginning, 
to a message from Caroline on Feb 11, 1992.  These archives are

in ftp form, at ftp://ftp.cs.dartmouth.edu/pub/lute (connect as
guest, or ftp) and are in multiple month files.  These days
you could download them all and store them on your computer for
easy searching.  Your message is there, in the file

 There are also various mail list archive sites on the web, and on
Aug 29 2003 I started sending messages to mail-archive.com.  Other
people have signed up to send messages to other archive sites 
at various times.  In the case of archive sites, I do not run the 
sites.  I just direct messages that way, and the site owners do the rest.

They have sometimes censored certain posts, or advertised pornography
on the margins, and I have no control of that.

 Every message gets automatically added to the FTP archives after a week.
I haven't gotten around to organizing the most recent years.

 Wayne


On Sep 2, 2014, at 7:20 AM, Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:


  Dear Wayne,

  How far back do the Lute Net Archives go? I have been trying to locate
  my first message to the Lute Net, which was on 8th September 1999,
  about the song As I me walked, but I can't find any messages that
  long ago.

  Best wishes,

  Stewart McCoy.





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[LUTE] Archives

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear Wayne,

   How far back do the Lute Net Archives go? I have been trying to locate
   my first message to the Lute Net, which was on 8th September 1999,
   about the song As I me walked, but I can't find any messages that
   long ago.

   Best wishes,

   Stewart McCoy.

   --


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[LUTE] Thibault MS

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Josef,

Just in case you were unaware, there are two articles on the Thibault 
manuscript by Lewis Jones in _The Lute_, 1982 (part 2) and 1983 (part 1). In 
the 1982 article he gives transcriptions of eight pieces from the 
manuscript, including the Calata on fol. 53r, but not the basse danses.


Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message- 
From: Josef Berger

Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:59 PM
To: Hector Sequera ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Thibault MS

  Hi Hector,
  thank you for the information. I hope that you'll be able to publish
  some of your research in scholarly journals, to make it more
  internationally accessible.
  I was mainly curious what you have written about the dances in the
  Thibault MS, and if there are any new concordances than those mentioned
  in Thibault 1958.
  I have the article by G.Thibault (Un manuscrit italien pour luth des
  premiAres annA(c)es du XVIe siAcle, pp. 43-76 in: J. Jaquot (ed.): Le
  luth et sa musique, Paris 1958) which contains transcriptions of pavana
  regia, saltarello, piva, pavana (fol.13r to 14r), a pavana (fol.25r)
  and a mysterious calata (fol.53). But Thibault (1958) did not include
  the basse danses of the manuscript (Basadanza, fol.15r and Spagna,
  fol.19v), so I was as hoping to find those somewhere.I found Sarge
  Gerbode's transcription of the Spagna in Thibault at
  [1]http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/VMD/pdf/Vmd27_spagna.pdf , but not
  the Basadanza (which might be another version of the popular Spagna
  theme?)
  Best wishes
  Josef Berger

  2014-07-11 16:11 GMT+02:00 Hector Sequera [2]hectorl...@mac.com:

Dear Josef,
My thesis is under contract by UMI so I cannot release it (you need
to buy it via ProQuest in the USA). If you have any specific
questions let me know. I am back at doing research on this topic and
hope to publish something next year.
All best wishes,
Hector
On 11 Jul 2014, at 14:57, Josef Berger [3]harpolek...@gmail.com
wrote:
 A  Dear collective wisdom,
 A  does somebody of you have access to the thesis of Hector
Sequera about
 A  the Thibault manuscript? Its PDF seems to be available only at
the
 A  University of North Texas...
 A  [1][4]http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc4652/
 A  HA(c)ctor J Sequera (2004): Selected Lute Music from Paris,
RA(c)s.
 A  Vmd. Ms. 27 from the BibliothAque Nationale: Reconstruction,
Edition,
 A  and Commentary.
 A  Best wishes from southern Sweden (which at this very moment
feels
 A  rather than some part of Africa)
 A  Josef Berger

 A  --

 References

 A  1. [5]http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc4652/


 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://gerbode.net/composers/Anon/VMD/pdf/Vmd27_spagna.pdf
  2. mailto:hectorl...@mac.com
  3. mailto:harpolek...@gmail.com
  4. http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc4652/
  5. http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc4652/
  6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Say love and Queen Elizabeth

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ron,

The reactions to my email about a possible connection between Dowland's Say
love and Queen Elizabeth's Galliard has drawn some predictable responses,
including a welcome and encouraging  Fascinating.  Bravo! from Arthur. I
can understand the reticence of Ralf and Howard in accepting musical
allusions in the music of John Dowland. Of course there will be the same
group of notes which appear in other compositions, a point Howard makes
well, but are we to throw the baby out with the bath water? Some allusions
are obvious, for example the notes of Swanee River appearing in Alexander's
Ragtime Band, but others will be more obscure.

Deciding whether a group of notes, a snippet of melody and/or harmony, is a
coincidence or a deliberate allusion, is not always easy, and there will be
a grey area, where some of us accept the notes as an allusion, and others
see them as mere coincidence. We all draw the line in different places, some
of us more cautious than others. However, I guess Dowland's use of the
Woods so wild folk tune in Can she excuse has enough notes for most of
us to accept as a musical allusion.

Music c.1600, in particular madrigals, is full of word-painting, and some
instances of it are more in evidence than others. The first four notes of
Dowland's Lachrimae often appear where the text includes the word weep. Is
this an allusion to Dowland's Lachrimae, or mere coincidence? John Bennet's
Weep oh mine eyes begins with AGFE in the bass, and with Dowland's
characteristic rhythm. In John Ward's Weep forth your tears, all six
voices enter with a similar four-note descending motif, but not always with
the tones and semitones in the same place. Were Bennet and Ward alluding to
Dowland's Lachrimae? I think they were, because Dowland's pavan was so well
known in England. However, in his book on Lachrimae, Peter Holman points out
that the falling tetrachord motif occurs for moments of grief in works by
Giovanni Gabrieli, Marenzio, Wert, Monteverdi, and even Josquin. On page 40
he writes, to establish a credible connection between 'Lachrimae' and
earlier compositions we need more than four notes in common.

Lassus' well-known Susanne un jour was widely disseminated, and appeared
in various guises c. 1600. Antoine Francisque included an intabulation of it
at the start of his Tresor d'Orphée (Paris, 1600). We can speculate why the
story of Susanna and the Elders and Lassus' setting of the words were so
important at that time, but occupying first place in a collection of music
is, I think, significant.

The first item in Robert Dowland's Musical Banquet (London, 1610) is his
father's Sir Robert Sidney his Galliard. The first five notes are the same
as Lassus' Susanne un jour. Another setting of this galliard appears in
Dd.2.11 as Susanna Galliard, proving that the allusion to Lassus is
deliberate. Diana Poulton, on page 150 of her book John Dowland, writes:
Without the use of the name 'Susanna' it might have been just possible to
accept the opening phrase as a coincidence, but as it stands there can be
little doubt that Dowland had the sixteenth-century _chanson_ in mind when
he wrote his galliard.

There is one more possible allusion which I have spotted in Dowland's music,
which I don't think has been noticed before. Lassus' Susanne un jour also
makes a cameo appearance at the start of John Dowland's First Book of Songs
(London, 1597). In Unquiet thoughts, for the words I'll cut the string
and make the hammer strike, there is an allusion to a passage towards the
end of Lassus' Susanne un jour. Mere coincidence? Perhaps, but in a world
where hidden meanings abound - one has only to think of Shakespeare - I am
inclined to think that there is more to music from this period than meets
the eye.

Best wishes,

Stewart.






-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Ron Andrico
Sent: 24 January 2014 13:09
To: R. Mattes; Stewart McCoy; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Say love and Queen Elizabeth

   Dear Ralf:
   Perhaps one is a bit hasty to pass judgement from afar on the sharpness
   of another person's tools without seeing the larger context of the
   work.  I observe here and on other comment forums that it is easy to
   throw a good idea off-track by distracting with humorous associations.
   In the end, we learn fascinating historical connections through a
   perceptive eye, a discerning ear, and a complete immersion into the
   subject matter and it's context.  I suppose one can find echoes of the
   cuckoo clock in nearly any musical phrase.
   Best,
   RA
Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2014 00:01:41 +0100
To: lu...@tiscali.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
From: r...@mh-freiburg.de
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Say love and Queen Elizabeth

   SNIP
Oh dear, that's what happens if you use the wrong tool to analyze.
I wouldn't call five stepwise notes downward an melody. Otherwise
you might claim that Dowland quotes the end

[LUTE] Say love and Queen Elizabeth

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear All,


   Earlier today I was accompanying Dowland's Say love, if ever thou
   didst find. I remarked to the singer and gamba player, that people
   today often assume the song refers to Queen Elizabeth. Though not
   named, she is likely to be the song's she.


   A similar use of the word she occurs in Now, oh now I needs must
   part and Can she excuse. The titles of their instrumental settings,
   The Frog Galliard (Frog = Duc d'Alenc,on) and The Earl of Essex
   Galliard, point us to the names of the characters referred to in Now,
   oh now and Can she, which in turn suggest that the Queen must be the
   unnamed she.


   The first few notes of Now, oh now match the first few notes of the
   well-known Aria del Gran Duca, a piece first performed in 1589  in
   Florence for a Medici wedding. The Duc d'Alenc,on was the son of Marie
   de Medici, Queen of France, so Dowland appears to be using music for a
   grand duke at a successful Medici wedding in his song about a failed
   courtship by a different Medici grand duke.


   In the second part of Now, oh now, there is a modulation to the
   supertonic; there is a similar modulation in the second part of
   Monsieur's Almain. Monsieur was the name commonly used for the Duc
   d'Alenc,on; Frog was Queen Elizabeth's nickname for him.


   Many years ago I wrote on this list about Now, oh now and its
   associations, and there were some who were not convinced. They argued
   that such things were mere coincidences, yet musical references abound
   in music from this period. Another example is a quotation from The
   Sacred End Pavan in Henry Unton's Funeral, showing that Henry has
   come to his own sacred end. Dowland's Farewell has links with a
   madrigal by Weelkes, and references to Dowland's Lachrimae for weeping
   (e.g. John Bennet's Weep oh mine eyes) are ubiquitous.


   If the first few notes of Now, oh now point to the Duc d'Alenc,on,
   what about the first few notes of Say love? This afternoon I noticed
   that they are exactly the same as the first few notes of Dowland's
   Queen Elizabeth's Galliard. Was Dowland using his own galliard to
   show that the song really is about the Queen?


   Best wishes,


   Stewart McCoy.



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[LUTE] Articles Needed

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Graham,

You can acquire a legal copy of the facsimile edition of Dd.2.11 from the
Lute Society via http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/catalogue .

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Graham Freeman
Sent: 26 November 2013 13:28
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Articles Needed

   All,
   I'm away from my books at the moment and I wonder if anyone might be
   able to provide scans of the following;
   Ian Harwood. A Lecture in Music, The Lute 45 (2005), 1-70
   Also, I'd really like a scan of the scholarly introductory material for
   the new edition of the Matthew Holmes Lutebook. If anyone were able to
   help me out with these, I'd really appreciate it.
   Best,
   Graham Freeman



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[LUTE] Chord fingering

[Stewart McCoy]

That E flat chord

_a_
_b_
_b_
_c_
_d_
___

Dan is right to say that much depends on the thickness of the end of your
first finger, but I believe there are more people capable of covering all
four strings of two courses with one finger, than a few double bass players
with banana-like fingers. The E flat chord should ideally be played without
a barré of any sort. You should aim between the second and third courses,
with your first finger curved exactly as it would be if it were holding down
just one course. Whenever I have said this to people in the past, their
immediate reaction is, I can't do it, and many give up at once. However,
it is worth persevering. Covering four strings at a time with one fingertip
is certainly daunting. At first you will probably manage to hold down the
two middle strings (one string of each course), and the outside two strings
make a faint, barely audible, damped noise. Be happy with that, and stick
with it. Eventually, when you are not thinking about it, you will find that
you are covering all four strings. A barré is not possible, because the open
first course needs to sound. Half-barrés are not at all satisfactory,
because the last joint of the finger is bent back the wrong way, which is
not strong, and involves too much extra movement. If my fingering just won't
work for you, you can try turning your left hand slightly, more as a
violinist holds his hand, which enables the first finger to hold down a
wider area across the strings. Turning your left hand like that can help
with a chord which occurs in Galilei's intabulation of Palestrina's Vestiva
i colli in _Il Fronimo_:

_c__
_d_
_d_
_e_
_f_
___

You should finger it as you would the E flat chord, with the added
complication that the second joint of the first finger covers c1. That means
the first finger holds down three courses - c1, d2, d3 - and the little
finger is not used at all. In the Galilei intabulation, the little finger is
needed for the next note: f4.

In all of this, one should remember a rule I've never seen mentioned by
anyone else, that you should normally put down first whichever finger is
nearest to the bridge. That means, for the E flat chord or Galilei's chord,
you should put down your third finger first. If you try playing these chords
by putting the first finger down first, you'll never get anywhere.

Stewart McCoy





-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of jean-michel Catherinot
Sent: 09 September 2013 13:33
To: Edward C. Yong; Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: chord fingering

   petit barre avec l'index; that's the canonical way. (Leroy,...). It
   works easily with a not wide spacing.
 __

   De : Edward C. Yong edward.y...@gmail.com
   A : Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Lundi 9 septembre 2013 12h19
   Objet : [LUTE] chord fingering
   Hi collective wisdom of lutenists!
   is there a preferred fingering for this:
   _0_
   _1_
   _1_
   _2_
   _3_
   ___
   everything feels awkward :(
   Thanks everyone!
   Edward Chrysogonus Yong
   [1]edward.y...@gmail.com
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   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

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References

   1. mailto:edward.y...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Master of the Half Lengths

[Stewart McCoy]

Thanks, Arthur. I'll see if I can get hold of it.

All the best,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: Arthur Ness [mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net] 
Sent: 03 June 2013 13:58
To: Stewart McCoy
Subject: Fw: Paintings of lady concerts . . .'Jouissance', (Imagio musicae
1 [1981])

It includes Paintings of lady concerts . . .'Jouissance', (Imagio musicae
1 [1981]).  Colin has spent quite a bit of research time seeking out the
identifications of music quoted in paintings. This is an anthology of his
studies.

Greetings, Arthur

- Original Message -
From: donotre...@worldcat.oclc.org
To: arthurjn...@verizon.net
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2013 8:02 AM
Subject: Paintings of lady concerts . . .'Jouissance', (Imagio musicae 1
[1981])A library item you might like from worldcat.org


I thought you might be interested in this item at
 http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/47225425

 Title:  Painting music in the sixteenth century : essays in 
 iconography
 Author:  H  Colin Slim
 Publisher:  Aldershot,UK; Brookfield, USA : Ashgate,  Co.; 2002.

 ISBN/ISSN: 0860788695  9780860788690
 OCLC:47225425
 



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[LUTE] Master of the Half Lengths

[Stewart McCoy]

   Many paintings are attributed to the so-called Master of the Half
   Lengths, and may be seen at


   [1]http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Master+of+the+half+lengthstbm=isch
   tbo=usource=univsa=Xei=2GqsUZydFOfX0QXp_4CQDgvedDYQsAQbiw6bihH3


   The three ladies making music together (top row, 6th painting along)
   are performing Claudin de Sermisy's Jouyssance vous donneray. Does
   anyone know what music is being played by the other musicians, for
   example, the soloist (top row, 2nd painting along)?


   Stewart McCoy




   --

References

   1. 
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Master+of+the+half+lengthstbm=ischtbo=usource=univsa=Xei=2GqsUZydFOfX0QXp_4CQDgvedDYQsAQbiw%926bihH3


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[LUTE] Harp-Lute

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Rob,

Congratulations on a very pleasing performance. Lucky you. I have long
wanted to play such an instrument.

There is an original harp-like instrument by Light - no frets and
fingerboard, just harp-like strings - on sale for £3000 at Tony Bingham's
shop in London. Details at
http://www.oldmusicalinstruments.co.uk/instruments/instrument_list.php?cat=P
S .

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Rob MacKillop
Sent: 06 April 2013 20:13
To: Lute
Subject: [LUTE] Harp-Lute

   Some of you might have a passing interest in the so-called harp-lute.
   Somebody gave a loan of one yesterday, by Edward Light, and also a
   tutor by him. I managed to knock out three tunes today.
   Video and more info here: [1]http://19th-centuryguitar.com/harp-lute/
   Rob

   --

References

   1. http://19th-centuryguitar.com/harp-lute/


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[LUTE] English renaissance Christmas songs

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ed,

There is a lute intabulation Byrd's Lullaby in one of the Paston lute
books. There is a modern intabulation of Byrd's Out of the orient crystal
skies in _Eight Consort Songs by William Byrd_, published by Fretwork
editions, FE3 A, in 1990. Both intabulations include the lowest four voices
of five.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
Of Edward Martin
Sent: 26 September 2012 19:02
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] English renaissance Christmas songs

Dear Collective wisdom,

I was just employed to perform in a number of concerts with a choral group
in December.  A special request is for one lute song, sung in English, with
either a direct or implied Christmas theme.  I am 
drawing a blank. any ideas?   Thanks in advance,

ed



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[LUTE] Selling a guitar

[Stewart McCoy]

   A friend of mine is trying to sell a 4-course renaissance guitar. I
   suggested he try Wayne's site at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html . Are there any
   other websites - lute, guitar, ukulele - where instruments can be
   advertised for sale? Any help much appreciated.


   Stewart McCoy

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html


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[BAROQUE-LUTE] The rhythm shape of French cadences?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Arto and Mathias,

I think Leif Karlson is right. French ornaments normally begin with an
appoggiatura, which is notated by a comma. The appoggiatura may or may
not be followed by a trill depending on the circumstances.

A baroque trill consists of three elements:

1) An appoggiatura, i.e. play the note above the written note first
(b2).

2) A trill with as many turns as you can sensibly fit in (a2 b2 a2 b2
a2).

3) A termination (optional) which rounds off the trill (d3 a2).

|\   |\  |\  |\   |\|
||   |\  |\   |\|
||   |\  ||\|
||   |\  |.   |\|
___
___a__|__b___a_b_a_b_a___a__|__
___d__|___d_d___|__
__|__c__|__
__|_|__
__|_|__

The reason for having an appoggiatura is to create dissonance at the
start of it all, which resolves itself amongst a flurry of notes. To
enjoy the dissonance you should hold onto the dissonant note - lean on
it and savour it before proceeding. It is this dissonance which
contributes to the characteristic sound of French music.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Mathias Rösel
Sent: 06 April 2012 12:05
To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: The rhythm shape of French cadences?

 |\| |\|
 | | |\|
 | |.| |
 
 ___a__|__a,__a___|__
 ___d__|d_d___|__
 __|__c___|__
 __|__|__
 __|__|__
 
 
 My former lute teacher, Leif Karlson - a student of Michael Schaeffer,
btw
-
 once suggested to this kind of example the shape (in d-minor tuning):
 c-d in two | eb-d-eb in 3, d-eb-d-c-d in 5, c in 1 |
 So something like even - trioli - quintoliHe later on denied
this
solution, anyhow...
 How do you interprete this type of cadence?

Perhaps a bit old-fashioned, I take the main note as the most important.
I
have often heard players immediately start a trill beginning the upper
auxiliary note that fastens quickly. But for me, the actual ornament is
two-fold, i.e. back-fall first, then a trill. And I like fastening, but
not
premature, trills.

Since the main note is dotted, the back-fall should take two thirds of
it.
Only on the 3rd third it's time for the trill which necessarily will be
a
short upper mordent, so that the main note will eventually stand for a
very
short moment, before the final quick two notes come in.

Mathias


 By the way, today I walked 1.5 hours in the woods. And nearly all the
time
I was
 trying to get 2|3|5|1 to match to my steps... Perhaps it should sound
like
letting
 a coin drop in between your fingers against the table. Also the sound
getting
 more silent could match to the idea?
 
 Who knows what that shape really was?
 
 Best,
 
 Arto
 
 
 
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[LUTE] Miking a lute/theorbo

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Brad,

You can hear that tinny, brittle, distorted sound if you put your ear
right up to the ribs of the lute as you play it. (It's easier with a
lute than a theorbo.) A mike placed very close to the instrument will
capture some of that tinny sound.

If you listen to a lute or theorbo from 6-9 feet away, the sound will be
totally different - the sound we expect to hear. It makes sense then, if
you want a more natural sound, to put the mike two or three yards away
from the instrument.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Brad Walton
Sent: 03 April 2012 17:06
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] miking a lute/theorbo

Hello folks,


On the weekend I recorded two pieces in a professional recording 
studio.  I was accompanying a singer on the theorbo.  The recording 
engineer aimed two mikes quite close to the body of the theorbo.


On the recording, the sound of the theorbo is very tinny and distorted, 
and bears almost no similarity to the natural/ acoustic sound of the 
instrument.


Has anybody had experience with miking a lute or theorbo for recording?

What mike placement gave you the best results so far as concerned 
fidelity to the natural sound of the instrument?


Thanks,


Brad



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[LUTE] An anonymous (?) fantasia from Hortus Musarum (1552)

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Lex,

Yes, the piece appears on folio 63v of Valderrábano's book. Phalèse
nicked quite a few things from Valderrábano, and didn't always get them
right.

At the beginning of this piece three voices enter one after the other.
It is odd that the second voice in both sources has an extra note to
start, and I wonder if that is a mistake.

What is definitely a mistake is Phalèse missing out one of
Valderrábano's bars (which equals half one of Phalèse's bars), so that
the bass doesn't imitate the other two voices. To aid comparison, I'll
notate both sources in French tablature. (Don't forget to read the music
with a mono-spaced font like Courrier, or the vertical alignment will go
to pot.) The first four bars are the same in each source.

 |\ |\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\ |\
 |  |\ |  |   |  |\ |\ |  |\  |  |  |  |\ |\  |  |\ |  |
 |. |  |  |   |  |  |  |. |   |  |  |  |  |   |. |  |  |
_c__a__c__d__c__a__c_a__d_ca___
|_aa|_a__b_a|_a__|_
|_d_|_d_||_
|___|___||_
|___|___|_c__a__c__d_|_
|___|___||_

then they differ:

Valderrábano

 |\ |\ |\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\ |\ |\
 |  |\ |\ |  |   |  |  |  |\ |\  |\ |\ |  |  |
 |  |  |  |  |   |  |  |  |  |   |  |  |  |  |
__c__c_d_c___a
___|___|d__b_d__|_
_d_|___|__d_|_
_c_|b__c___||_
c__a__c|__d|___a_c__|_
___|___||_


Phalèse

  |\ |\  |\ |\ |\ |\ |\  |\ |\ |\ |\ |\
  |  |   |  |  |  |\ |\  |\ |\ |  |  |
  |  |   |  |  |  |  |   |  |  |  |  |
__c__c_d_c___a
___|___|d__b_d__|_
___|___|__d_|_
_c_|b__c___||_
__c|__d|___a_c__|_
___|___||_


Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.




-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Lex van Sante
Sent: 02 April 2012 08:55
To: lute mailing list list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: An anonymous (?) fantasia from Hortus Musarum (1552)

This music also appears in Silva de Sirenas by Valderrabano of 1547.
He probably is the composer.

Lex
Op 1 apr 2012, om 23:56 heeft Stuart Walsh het volgende geschreven:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0l5uYBgIMM
 
 
 
 Stuart





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[LUTE] Being too clever, knowing always how it is...

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Arto,

I'm not so sure. He may not be right.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Arto Wikla
Sent: 14 March 2012 22:13
To: Lutelist List
Subject: [LUTE] Being too clever, knowing always how it is...

Dear lutenists,

after having read every now and then some quite strong opinions how it 
really is here in our List, I cannot resist posting a perhaps slightly 
OT message, but there is a great wisdom in a comment by Charles
Bukowski:

The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of 
doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence.

Actually that is very pessimistic, but anyhow

all the best,

Arto




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[LUTE] Being too clever, knowing always how it is...

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Eugene,

Try playing a few scales, and remember the thread started with Arto in
Finland.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Braig, Eugene
Sent: 15 March 2012 11:03
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Being too clever, knowing always how it is...

In fishes, depending upon the degree of group responsiveness, the
swarm behavior is usually referred to as shoaling (for somewhat
loose associations) or schooling (in more tight-knit associations).
Closely schooling fishes often feature a highly developed lateralis
system for acute hydrodynamic sensory perception.  The classic example
is found in the herring family (clupeids) that completely lack the
lateral line along the body customarily associated with fishes, but that
have a complex system of lateralis pores and canals entirely
concentrated in the head and face.  However, I'm having a really hard
time relating all this to lutes...unless we are about to consider the
benefits of fish glue.

Tongue-in-cheekishly Eugene


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Franz Mechsner
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:45 AM
To: wikla; Stewart McCoy
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Being too clever, knowing always how it is...

   There's a nice story about always knowing for sure and leadership,
   this time in some fishes. It's not only amazing that a swarm of
fishes
   stays together but that - at least in some species - swarms may
change
   direction almost synchronously, like a big swimming organism. Now the
   story: Researchers found out that, in a certain species of fish,
there
   was always a leader in a swarm who's direction all of the others
   followed. Of course the obvious question arose: What makes the
natural
   leader here? Is it a particuarly clever fish? Or a fish who knows
   instinctively what direction is the best ist most circumstances? The
   answer which turned out was: Fishes have a tendency to adjust their
   direction with that of their neighbors in the swarm. There is always
   one fish in a swarm who does NOT adjust to any other fish - thus his
   direction wins over any other direction in the end. So much for
   apparent knowledge for sure and natural leadership.

   F

   
   Dr. Franz Mechsner
   Reader
   Northumbria University, Dept. of Psychology
   Northumberland Building
   Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 8ST (UK)
   Tel:  +44(0) 191 243 7479






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[LUTE] Nazi rules for jazz performers

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Gary,

Thank you for letting us see this extraordinary list of dos and don'ts
compiled by a Nazi Gauleiter with regard to jazz. State interference in
the performance of music is a sure sign that something is seriously
wrong.

In Great Britain you are not allowed to play sacred music at a civil
wedding ceremony. On one occasion, when the bride was very late
arriving, we musicians had to keep playing for a long time to keep
everyone entertained. When I announced that we would next play Bach's
Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, the registrar stepped forward and told us
that we were not allowed to play it, because it was sacred music.

On another occasion, in a different part of the country, I was required
to submit details of all music to played at a civil ceremony weeks
beforehand, so that the registrar could vet the music, and ensure that
the programme did not include any sacred pieces.

A couple getting married at a civil ceremony cannot request music with
sacred connotations, whatever reason they may have for wanting it
played. 

Ironically, the Anglican Church allows any music, sacred or not, to be
played during wedding ceremonies.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Gary Digman
Sent: 13 March 2012 08:38
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nazi rules for jazz performers

   Famed Czech radical Josef Skvorecky recently died at 87 in his
adopted
   land of Canada.
   In the Atlantic, JJ Gould remembers Skvorecky through his memoirs,
   including a detailed list of the rules for jazz performers during the
   Nazi occupation. The Reich's Gauleiter for the Nazi Protectorate of
   Bohemia and Moravia issued a 10-point regulation that Gould calls
the
   single most remarkable example of 20th-century totalitarian invective
   against jazz.





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[LUTE] Funny story

[Stewart McCoy]

   I have just received this little story from a friend in Austria. Names
   have been removed to preserve anonymity.


   [The teacher] has a new guitar pupil, a seven-year-old boy called
   [...] . He came for his second lesson yesterday, and asked, what is
   that thing hanging on the wall there? - the lute. So it was explained
   to him, it is an old instrument, related to the guitar. The light
   dawned: wie der Gorilla und der Mensch ...


   Best wishes,


   Stewart McCoy.

   --


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[LUTE] Ford Airs de Coeur

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Tom,

You'll find the tablature at

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=u4ujSrX0DgsCdq=%22thomas+ford%22+%2B
+luteprintsec=frontcoversource=blots=hX3jUgVnd2sig=i_GiCbv0NH-sai6bo
vDkVNk5q_0hl=enei=QadTSq7XON6RjAeZla2LCQsa=Xoi=book_resultct=result
resnum=4#v=onepageq=%22thomas%20ford%22%20%2B%20lutef=false

The music is for two lyra viols, so the tablature will need adjusting to
fit on lutes, because the tuning of the viols is not the same as the
lutes.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com
Sent: 24 February 2012 18:07
To: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Ford Airs de Coeur

   Dear Lute Friends,

 A student of mine heard some Thomas Ford airs de coeur on

   public radio performed by Godelieve Monden and Narcisso Yepes.

 The selections are:

   Allemande

   Forget Me Not

   A Pavan

   A Galliard

   The Bagpipes

   The Wild Goose Chase

 Are these available anywhere in Fronimo or PDF?

   Thanks,

 Tom

   Tom Draughon

   Heartistry Music

   http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html

   714  9th Avenue West

   Ashland, WI  54806

   715-682-9362

   --


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[LUTE] Message for Ed Martin (names of lute strings)

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

Thomas Robinson gives the names of the strings of a 6-course lute as
follows:

Treble.
Small Meanes.
Great Meanes.
Contra-tenor.
Tenor.
Bass.

Presumably the strings used for the 5th and 6th courses were too thick
to be used for frets.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of David R
Sent: 15 February 2012 17:20
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Message for Ed Martin

I was talking to someone the other day about viol fretting,  
specifically:  using old strings as fret gut.  Along with some  
information on that, he sent me this quote from Dowland.  He didn't  
specify John or Robert:

therefore doe this; let the two first frets neerest the head of the  
Instrument (being the greatest) be of the size of your Countertenor,  
then the third and fourth frets must be of the size of your great  
Meanes : the fift and sixt frets of the size of your small Meanes :  
and all the rest sized with Trebles. These rules serue also for  
Viols, or any other kinde of Instrument whereon frets are tyed.

I'm not familiar with the terms countertenor, great meanes or  
small means.  I assume Dowland is referring to lute strings, but  
can anyone tell me which courses he's referring to?

Also, I've been so out of touch over the last year or so, I've lost  
track of people's e-mail addresses.  Ed Martin, can you drop me an e- 
mail?  Something I wanted to ask you about:  d_lu...@comcast.net.

Thanks.

David Rastall



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[LUTE] Chow Bente

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Leonard and David,

John Robinson explains the origin of Chow Bent in footnote 133 on page
24 of the Introduction to the Lute Society facsimile of Dd.2.11, for
which Rainer aus dem Spring is thanked in the Acknowledgements on page
8.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of David Tayler
Sent: 14 February 2012 03:25
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Chow Bente

   Haven't read Rainer's explanation but Chowbent is another name for
   Atherton
   Tunes were often named for towns, like Edinboro or Richmond and
in
   some dialects tune is pronounced the same as town
   [1]http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Atherton/index.html
   aEUR~The lads of Chowbent were there
And had brought their dogs to the bear
   But they had no time to play
   They danced away the day
   For thither then they had brought Knex
   To play Chowbent hornpipe, that Nick's
   Tommy's and Geffrey's shoon
   Were worn quite through to the tune'
   dt
 __

   From: Leonard Williams arc...@verizon.net
   To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Mon, February 13, 2012 5:12:28 PM
   Subject: [LUTE] Chow Bente
   The introduction to the Lute Society's facsimile edition of
   Matthew
   Holmes acknowledges the assistance of Rainer aus dem Spring and his
   explanation of the title of piece #256, Chow Bente;  however, that
   explanation does not seem to appear in the edition.  What is it
(sounds
   Italian)?
   Thanks and regards,
   Leonard Williams
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Atherton/index.html
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Guitar temperament

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Dominic,

It has to be equal temperament.

The question of temperament crops up from time to time on this list, and
some subscribers have expressed strong views either for or against
having fretted instruments in equal temperament. Our debate echoes the
same debate musicians had during the 16th and 17th century.

Those in favour of unequal temperament will refer to evidence such as:

1) 16th-century vihuela players moving the 4th fret for the sake of
pieces in flat keys, e.g. Luis Milan in 1536;

2) Christopher Simpson's _Compendium_ in 1667 describing how some viol
players and theorbo men had an extra first fret on their instrument.

Those in favour of equal temperament will refer to:

1) Galilei espousing equal temperament for lutes in 1582 with his 18:17
ratio for the placing of frets;

2) Praetorius stating unequivocally in 1619 that lutes and viols were
fretted in equal temperament.

Much of the evidence may be found in Mark Lindley's excellent _Lutes,
Viols  Temperaments_ (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1984). One
may fairly quibble about his dubious conclusion that Valderrabano must
have used equal temperament (page 22), but there is a wealth of
information on the subject supporting both sides of the argument.

Your evidence derived from Bartolotti is an important contribution to
the debate, and adds weight to the argument that baroque guitars were
fretted in equal temperament.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Dominic Robillard
Sent: 18 January 2012 23:12
Cc: lute list lute list
Subject: [LUTE] guitar temperament

   Hi luters,
   Bartolotti starts with  a passacaille in book I. Each passacaille
   modulates to a different key.  Was he ahead of Wagner?  Were
performers
   of passacailles through all keys allowed to stop to tune, and change
   fret spacing within a work?  Was that okay and normal for the
audience?
   Was there an audience?   Equal temperament sounds so bad, it just
can't
   be.
   I refuse to stop using meantone, 1/6, but I can't seem to get passed
   the 4th fret on my guitar.  How many tastinos will it take?  I was
told
   by pros, including Stubbs, that things get looser up there, but I
think
   that is just continuo talk.  Even playing Sanz  doesn't pan out, can
   anyone help?
   Dominic

   --


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[LUTE] Ornithology

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bernd,

This question came up some years ago, and there were many interesting
contributions. It may be possible to trace the thread in the Lute Net
archives.

There is a nice Anonymous This merry pleasant spring for voice and
lute in the Turpyn Book of Lute Songs, and lute songs by John Bartlett:
Of all the birds, and nos 19-21 in his _Booke of Ayres_ (1606),
including The thrush did pipe full cleare.

There are many pieces called Robin, but almost certainly not
associated with the bird of that name.

Ravenscroft's There were three ravens could easily be arranged as a
lute song.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Bernd Haegemann
Sent: 11 January 2012 21:58
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] ornithology

Dear all,

please name me some lute pieces dedicated to birds.
I have the whole Gallot collection, a Gautier rossignol, there is the
nice rossignol 
duet..
Thank your for your suggestions!

Bernd




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

To confirm what you say, Morley's oft-requested It was a lover and his
lass is fearfully difficult for the lutenist to play at the printed
pitch, but it works a treat transposed down a tone. It also helps
singers who don't like singing top g, and my ears which don't like
hearing top g.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of David van Ooijen
Sent: 04 December 2011 19:09
To: lute
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight

On 4 December 2011 19:58, David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
   especially Airs to Cour but also English lute songs, and here down a
   tone is the most common, followed by up a tone.

I've noticed some lute songs become easier down a tone. Particularly
Morley songs. I always wondered about his songs - were they written a
tone lower but publisehd a tone up? Funny, that.

David





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[LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear Martyn,


   I don't really want to speculate why Morley's songs are in the keys
   they are. The aim of my message was simply to make people aware, if
   they were not already, that It was a lover and his lass is much
   easier to play and sing when transposed down a tone from the printed
   pitch.


   Best wishes,


   Stewart.


   -Original Message-
   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: 05 December 2011 10:45
   To: Stewart McCoy
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight


   Dear Stewart,


   But isn't it interesting that, if Morley did write the original in
   staff notation and the piece was then intabulated,  this particular key
   was choosen?  Or is the suggestion that whoever did it didn't think
   it mattered whatever key they put it in because the lutenist would
   transpose (on sight.). Why would they do this if they expected to
   generate sales? - or are you also suggesting that any 'experienced'
   lutenist at the time could transpose intabulated lute songs on sight?


   rgds


   Martyn
   --- On Mon, 5/12/11, Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight
 To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Monday, 5 December, 2011, 10:03

   Dear David,
   To confirm what you say, Morley's oft-requested It was a lover and his
   lass is fearfully difficult for the lutenist to play at the printed
   pitch, but it works a treat transposed down a tone. It also helps
   singers who don't like singing top g, and my ears which don't like
   hearing top g.
   Best wishes,
   Stewart McCoy.
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   Behalf Of David van Ooijen
   Sent: 04 December 2011 19:09
   To: lute
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight
   On 4 December 2011 19:58, David Tayler [3]vidan...@sbcglobal.net
   wrote:
  especially Airs to Cour but also English lute songs, and here down
   a
  tone is the most common, followed by up a tone.
   I've noticed some lute songs become easier down a tone. Particularly
   Morley songs. I always wondered about his songs - were they written a
   tone lower but publisehd a tone up? Funny, that.
   David
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


   --

References

   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vidan...@sbcglobal.net
   4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re: A=392]

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Arthur,

I suppose it is worth mentioning in this context that Cabezon and
Henestrosa's keyboard music was for tecla, harpa y vihuela, so
keyboard players, harpists and vihuela players were all expected to play
from the same notation, which is a form of tablature. As you know, there
is a little bit of Francesco da Milano in there.

It is interesting what you say about the possibility of keyboard players
learning to play from lute tablature, because of the scarcity of
keyboard music in print. They would have to find their music from
somewhere.

By the way, I can manage German tablature straight on to the piano, as
long as it's from Hans Newsidler's books, because the music is not too
difficult to read, and many of his pieces are not too difficult to play.
Reading music by Melchior Newsidler from a manuscript source would be
asking too much of me, but not, apparently, of Orazio Michi dell'Arpa.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of A. J. Ness
Sent: 02 December 2011 23:38
To: William Samson; Stuart Walsh
Cc: Baroque Lute List
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re:
A=392]

It's not difficult to play from lute tablature at a keyboard. I have
played
at sight from Italian tablature at a keyboard without ever having
practicing 
the technique.  I've never tried
German, but it would be even easier because there is one distinct note
for
each tablature cipher.  I'm limited by my modest keyboard skills.  I've 
witnessed Daniel
Heartz, a piano virtuoso, when he ripped through a lute tablature at
tempo.

I wonder historically how often Renaissance keyboard players turned to
lute
tablature.  There was relatively so little printed keyboard
music from those days.  Printing keyboard notation must have been very
difficult, and that may account _*in part*_ for its scarcity.  And
playing
from lute tablature would be an easy way for keyboard players to augment
their repertory.  And lute music sounds very nice when played on a
portative
organ, for example.

Roman added that historic harpist played from lute tablature.  I know of
one
piece of evidence for this.  Ms Rès 429 at the Bibliothèque nationale in
Paris has on its cover the ex-libris of Orazio Michi dell'Arpa
(1594-1649),
perhaps the most famous harpist of his day. This is the fascicle
manuscript
with music by Melchior Newsidler (autograph)
and Francesco (copied from the Naples print of 1536).  More information:
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/id30.html (scroll down).

Arthur.
- Original Message - 
From: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com
Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 4:13 AM
Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was Re:
A=392]

   Hi Stuart,
SNIP
   Having said that, I can't remember if you were at the Lute Soc
Summer
   School when Eugen Dombois was giving master classes?  He was having
   some injury problems and couldn't play his lute, so he borrowed a
   clavichord and sight read from lute tablature flawlessly.  Not the
same
   skill, of course, but I wouldn't have believed it possible if I
hadn't
   seen it.
   Bill
   From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com
   To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   Cc: Baroque Lute List (E-mail) baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2011, 22:10
   Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Transposing lute tablature on sight [was
   Re: A=392]
   On 30/11/2011 16:37, David van Ooijen wrote:
On 30 November 2011 17:28, howard
posner[1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com
   wrote:
On Nov 30, 2011, at 7:39 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:
   
Ask your colleagues if they can
transpose a lute song.
What evidence do you have that he has colleagues?
ROTFLOL!
   Not sure I am.
   Professionals on this list don't often 'pull rank', or make a very,
   very  big deal of showing off their professional skills to the
majority
   of us who are just enthusiastic amateurs.
   Firstly, I'll say I haven't looked at a lute song accompaniment in a
   very, very long time. Yet, although I'd feel quite confident in
having
   a go at sight reading lute duets and other lute parts (depending on
   difficulty, of course), I'd be far less sure about sight reading
lute
   song accompaniments, let alone transposing at sight! The parts are
just
   too difficult to sight read, let alone, transpose. Can you do this,
   Howard?
   On the other hand, of course,  players of other instruments do
   transpose at sight as a matter of course. Many pianists (and other
   keyboard players) can transpose at sight, though I've always assumed
   they were transposing fairly simple music, not Bartok piano
concertos.
   Do your colleagues, do this sort of thing, David?
   I have an amateur musician colleague, another teacher - of physics.
He
   plays trombone. Trombone players play in different clefs and in 

[LUTE] Transposing lute tablature on sight

[Stewart McCoy]

Transposing tablature at sight, or playing a keyboard instrument while
reading tablature, are not impossible. I find the first tricky, and the
second remarkably easy, as long as the tablature is French. It all
depends on how you learned the lute in the first place. If you started
with tablature, you are likely to see the letters only as positions on
the fingerboard, and transposition will be well nigh impossible. If, on
the other hand, you started with staff notation, those tablature letters
are more likely to represent pitch, making transposition or playing the
music straight on a piano much easier.

Roman's point about temperament is a bit of a red herring, because the
evidence points towards equal temperament being the norm for lute and
viols by the beginning of the 17th century.

Stewart McCoy





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[LUTE] Something old and something new - Conrad Paumann and Gilbert Isbin

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Stuart,

I think Ich beger nit mer would be Ich begiere nicht mehr in modern
German, meaning I long no more.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Stuart Walsh
Sent: 26 November 2011 22:27
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Something old and something new - Conrad Paumann and
Gilbert Isbin

Paumann's 'Ich beger nit mer'  from the Buxheimer Orgerlbuch. Paumann 
played the lute (and perhaps, fingerstyle) as well as the organ and - 
maybe - he played it in a similar way on both instruments.  It fits a G 
lute well and only need five courses.

Online German translators don't recognise 'beger',  'nit' nor 'mer' as 
German so I don't have a clue what the title means.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HInorS2jmIk




Gilbert Isbin's 'Recall', (August? 2011)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKJxE7mTkmg


Stuart



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[LUTE] Something old and something new - Conrad Paumann and Gilbert Isbin

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ralf,

Thanks for correcting my mistake. I was mixing up the verb with the
noun, die Begier (desire, longing).

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of R. Mattes
Sent: 27 November 2011 00:12
To: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Something old and something new - Conrad Paumann and
Gilbert Isbin

On Sat, 26 Nov 2011 23:07:13 -, Stewart McCoy wrote
 Dear Stuart,
 
 I think Ich beger nit mer would be Ich begiere nicht mehr in
modern
 German, meaning I long no more.

Just for the records: there's no such word as begieren - modern german
verb is begehren (#8599; mhd. 'gêren').

 Cheers, RalfD





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[LUTE] Il me suffit in Ms Mus 2987

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Arthur,

Many thanks for the reference to Hiroyuki Minamino's excellent article
in The Lute. Yes, it's a pity the reproduction of the page from Ms Mus
2987 is so poor - details like the little horizontal lines for tied
notes are completely lost - but at least we can see it clearly on line
now.

All the best,

Stewart.




-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of A. J. Ness
Sent: 11 October 2011 08:46
To: Lute List; Stewart McCoy
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Il me suffit in Ms Mus 2987

   Nothing New Under the Sun.  The intabulation in score format from Mus
   Ms 2987 (fol. 2) is examined in context in Hiroyuki Minamino, The
   Schlick-Virdung Lute Intabulation Controversy, The Lute 46 (2006):
   54-67.  Alas the reproduction of the Munich folio on page 57 is
reduced
   and totally illegible.  Here again is the link to that page:



 
[1]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0004/bsb00049370/images/inde
 
x.html?id=00049370fip=qrsqrseayaensdaseayaenqrsxdsydensdasno=44seite
   =15



   For more information on the topic, see Hiro's dissertation,
   Sixteenth-Century Lute Treatises with Emphasis on Process and
   Techniques of Intabulation, Ph.D. diss., University of Chicago,
1988.



   ajn




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[LUTE] Il me suffit in Ms Mus 2987

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

Thanks for the reference to what you have written online about Virdung's
intabulation of O haylige onbeflecte zart junkfrawschafft Marie. I too
used to think that Virdung didn't know what he was doing, but having
spotted Il me suffit in Ms. Mus. 2987 the other day, I came to the
conclusion that he was not as daft as he appeared, or as daft as Schlick
had made him out to be. Virdung was trying to show the intabulation
process, not a completed intabulation, so he included mistakes which
had yet to be ironed out, just as there are in Ms. Mus. 2987. I think
Hiroyuki Minamino is spot on in his article - the one Arthur referred to
- where he shows what Virdung was really trying to do. Schlick's
criticism has more to do with personal animosity than incompetence on
Virdung's part. All very interesting.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of David van Ooijen
Sent: 11 October 2011 11:34
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Il me suffit in Ms Mus 2987

On 11 October 2011 09:45, A.  J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net wrote:
   Nothing New Under the Sun.  The intabulation in score format from
Mus
   Ms 2987 (fol. 2) is examined in context in Hiroyuki Minamino, The
   Schlick-Virdung Lute Intabulation Controversy, The Lute 46 (2006):



Or here:

http://home.kpn.nl/ooije006/david/writings/maria_f.html


David





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[LUTE] Il me suffit in Ms Mus 2987

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Arthur,

Many thanks for your message. I now realise that what at first appears
to be a useless, difficult-to-read intabulation of Il me suffit, is in
fact a necessary half-way house, assuming one is trying to intabulate
polyphonic music from a set of partbooks where there are no barlines.
You have to create a score first to be able to intabulate the piece for
solo lute.

It also restores my faith in Virdung. His intabulation is a similar
half-way house. Showing the intabulation process would have been more
use to his readers than just giving them a finished intabulation they
could find anywhere.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: A. J. Ness [mailto:arthurjn...@verizon.net] 
Sent: 10 October 2011 00:09
To: Stewart McCoy; Lute Net
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Il me suffit in Ms Mus 2987

Dear Stewart,

Mus Ms 2987 is a fascicle manuscript.  That is several (3?) manuscripts
bound together in the mid-19th century. (One fascicle is in the hand of
Melchior Newsidler.  Willi Apel has published the keyboard pieces.) Some
of
the pages were discovered in 1840 loose in one of the huge Lassus choir
books (5 foot tall!), where they must have been for two centuries.

I see no reason to doubt that they are the first stage in making an
intabulation.  There is, however, an unrelated manuscript in the Munich
University library that has German tablature likewise in score format.
But
the pieces are for viols since some parts are labeled Geygen.  There's
lute music in that manuscript also.

Back across the street to D-Mbs. Mus Ms 1511C has some sketchy pages
(lots
of corrections) of intabuations of Aspice dominum by Jachet, followed
by
similar sketchy intabulation of Willaert's Audi filia.  Now in the
middle
of Aspice is a page of German tablature in SATB score format (fol. 3v).
It's a tricky
passage for Audi filia that the intabulator worked out in SATB
tablature
score  and
then copied into the tablature.  At the end of that fascile is a
dedication
to a priest, Al reverendo patre fra matio.  (For a related matter see
my
response to Henner's inquiry.)

AJN
- Original Message - 
From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 5:16 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Il me suffit in Ms Mus 2987


   Whilst browsing through the lute music at the Bayerische
   Staatsbibliothek on line, I noticed an extraordinary intabulation of
   Claudin de Sermisy's Il me suffit in German lute tablature in Ms.
Mus.
   2987. The manuscript contains music in organ tablature, German lute
   tablature, French lute tablature and Italian lute tablature. What is
so
   unusual about Il me suffit is that each of the four voices has been
   given a separate set of rhythm signs. I have only ever seen this
once
   before, which was in Virdung's Musica getutscht und ausgezogen
(1511).
   Seeing the voices intabulated separately in this way helps one
   understand why the system of one set of conflated rhythm signs
evolved
   as the norm. It is just possible that this copy of Il me suffit was
   intended for four viols - after all, Hans Gerle used German
tablature
   for viols - but having the four voices so compact, as a score rather
   than in separate parts, makes me think that the music was intended
for
   lute solo. Underneath Il me suffit is the start of another piece,
which
   I don't recognise. You can see how the scribe drew his staves and
bar
   lines before writing in the numbers and letters for the notes with a
   rhythm sign for each note. There is a description of the manuscript
in
   Boetticher's RISM volume, p. 224. You can see the manuscript at:



[1]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0004/bsb00049370/images/inde

x.html?id=00049370fip=qrsqrseayaensdaseayaenqrsxdsydensdasno=44seite
   =15


   Stewart McCoy.


   --

 References

   1.

http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0004/bsb00049370/images/index.ht
ml?id=00049370fip=qrsqrseayaensdaseayaenqrsxdsydensdasno=44seite=15


 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Il me suffit in Ms Mus 2987

[Stewart McCoy]

   Whilst browsing through the lute music at the Bayerische
   Staatsbibliothek on line, I noticed an extraordinary intabulation of
   Claudin de Sermisy's Il me suffit in German lute tablature in Ms. Mus.
   2987. The manuscript contains music in organ tablature, German lute
   tablature, French lute tablature and Italian lute tablature. What is so
   unusual about Il me suffit is that each of the four voices has been
   given a separate set of rhythm signs. I have only ever seen this once
   before, which was in Virdung's Musica getutscht und ausgezogen (1511).
   Seeing the voices intabulated separately in this way helps one
   understand why the system of one set of conflated rhythm signs evolved
   as the norm. It is just possible that this copy of Il me suffit was
   intended for four viols - after all, Hans Gerle used German tablature
   for viols - but having the four voices so compact, as a score rather
   than in separate parts, makes me think that the music was intended for
   lute solo. Underneath Il me suffit is the start of another piece, which
   I don't recognise. You can see how the scribe drew his staves and bar
   lines before writing in the numbers and letters for the notes with a
   rhythm sign for each note. There is a description of the manuscript in
   Boetticher's RISM volume, p. 224. You can see the manuscript at:


   [1]http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0004/bsb00049370/images/inde
   x.html?id=00049370fip=qrsqrseayaensdaseayaenqrsxdsydensdasno=44seite
   =15


   Stewart McCoy.


   --

References

   1. 
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0004/bsb00049370/images/index.html?id=00049370fip=qrsqrseayaensdaseayaenqrsxdsydensdasno=44seite=15


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] My Lord Chamberlain

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Val,

Thanks for the clip. I would make two observations:

1) It would have been better if the player playing the low notes played
nearer the bridge. That way you get clear, crisp chords in the bass, and
sweet single-line notes in the treble. If the chords are played too far
from the bridge, you tend to get splats (strings crashing together) as
with this performance. Splats are a big problem with the lute, but not
the guitar.

2) It is a mistake to keep stopping in the third section so as to make
the change of left-hand position easier. If Dowland had wanted extra
rests, he would have written them. By adding extra time for their
convenience, they destroy the rhythm of the galliard.

A quick search through YouTube produces the following variety of hand
placement:

As I suggest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBW1-Kectiofeature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsBr3RYcjX8feature=related

Not as I suggest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5EIIb9-2L0feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqgsI2lVEjcfeature=related

Both ways:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6Bx8gMVxY

A complete cop-out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLDnkJUHS24

Best wishes,

Stewart.

PS to make Dowland turn in his grave - eight hands on one guitar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THJcvexjtGgfeature=related


Cher Val,

Merci pour le clip. Je ferais deux observations:

1) Il aurait valu mieux si le musicien qui joue les notes basses jouait
plus près du chevalet. Comme ça on produit des accords clairs et vifs,
tandis que les notes individuelles de la mélodie sont douces. Si on joue
les accords trop loin du chevalet, les deux cordes d'une choeur peuvent
se frapper, comme dans ce clip. C'est un grand problème chez le luth,
mais pas chez la guitarre.

2) C'est une erreur si on s'arrête continuellement dans la troisième
partie seulement pour faciliter le changement des mains. Si Dowland
avait voulu plus de pauses, il les aurait écrites. En ajoutant du temps
seulement pour les aider à changer position, ils détruisent le rhythme
du gaillard.

On peut trouver vite chez YouTube des façons différentes de tenir les
mains:

Ma suggestion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBW1-Kectiofeature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsBr3RYcjX8feature=related

Pas ma suggestion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5EIIb9-2L0feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqgsI2lVEjcfeature=related

Les deux façons, l'une après l'autre:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR6Bx8gMVxY

Se défiler complètement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLDnkJUHS24

Amitiés,

Stewart.

PS pour faire Dowland se retourner dans sa tombe: huit mains sur une
seule guitarre:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THJcvexjtGgfeature=related

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Valery Sauvage
Sent: 20 September 2011 13:20
To: le_l...@yahoogroupes.fr; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] My Lord Chamberlain

   Another try :

   Une autre tentative...


   [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hudZxUzNNo



   Val.



   --

References

   1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hudZxUzNNo


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[LUTE] Ian Harwood

[Stewart McCoy]

   Ian Harwood's obituary appeared in this morning's Daily Telegraph, and
   may be seen on line at


   [1]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/music-
   obituaries/8691938/Ian-Harwood.html


   His daughter Jenny told me that there would be an obituary in The Times
   and The Guardian as well.


   Stewart McCoy



   --

References

   1. 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/music-obituaries/8691938/Ian-Harwood.html


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[LUTE] Mersenne / ML

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Rainer,

Thanks for your interesting observation about Mersenne.

I had always assumed that the music on folio 1v of the ML lute book was
associated with change-ringing. Bob Spencer cautiously suggests this as
a possibility on page xxi of the facsimile:

Forty-six permutations of the scale of C major in bass clef, suggesting
changes for bell ringers, or sight-singing exercises.

The seventeenth century was when change-ringing evolved in England, so
the connection with Folio 1v is not implausible. The first bar consists
of a downward scale of 8 notes in C major. It is normal for bell-ringers
to begin with a series of these downward scales, called rounds, before
branching off onto some method or other. I think it is significant that
the notes alter, from one bar to the next, with adjacent notes changing
places, just as they do in bell-ringing. For example, after that first
bar of CBAGFEDC, there comes CBAFGEDC. In other words, F and G (in 4th
and 5th places) have swapped places. In the next bar we have CBAFEGDC,
so G and E (in 5th and 6th places) have swapped places. This is what
happens in change ringing. As far as I know, the changes on folio 1v do
not make up a recognised method, but I could try to find out more.

Wild speculation: one of the scribes of the ML Lute Book was into bell
ringing.

Further speculation: she was called Margaret. :-)

All the best,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Rainer
Sent: 08 August 2011 18:52
To: Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Mersenne / ML

Dear lute netters,

as some of you may know Robert Spencer (editor of the facsimile edition
of the 
ML lute book) was puzzled by the f 1v which contains a list of 46
permutations 
of 8 notes and by the list of factorials on 56r.

Yesterday I noticed that Mersenne's

HARMONICORVM LIBER PRIMVS

published in 1636 (I am afraid I even don't know if this is a Latin
version of 
his famous Harmonie Universelle) contains:

* A complete list of all 24 permutations of 4 notes.

* A list of factorials from 1 to 64.

Note: 64! has 90 digits and this is probably the largest factorial
calculated 
without computers.


By the way, a complete list of all permutations of 8 notes would require
to 
write down 8! = 40320 permutations, which is beyond discussion.

Anyway, obviously the scribe computed 8! on f. 56r which probably is not
a 
coincidence.


Wild speculation:

One of the scribes knew Mersenne's book.

Rainer adS



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[LUTE] What's the point to 'historical sound'

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Mathias,

As a man of the cloth, you will know that music has long been able to
have a powerful effect on the listener:

And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that
David took an harp, and played with his hand; so Saul was refreshed. And
was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. [1, Samuel, 16, 23]

One can speculate about the extent of David's self-expression through
music, and whether or not this was possible for someone living before
the 19th century. The important thing for me, which transcends HIP/
non-HIP considerations, is the effect of the music we play on the
listener. After hearing me play the lute in a primary school some years
ago, the most disruptive pupil in the class wrote, When I heard the
lute, I felt I wanted to cry. Therein lies the point of what we do.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Mathias Roesel
Sent: 02 July 2011 22:38
To: 'lutelist Net'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: What's the point to 'historical sound'

 Would you consider Lachrimae as a personal artistic expression of
Dowland
or
 as an example of more general craftsmanship?

An expression of his sublime art, certainly. I do resist the notion,
however, that Dowland had personally fallen in love with queen
Elizabeth. On
the other hand, I had the opportunity to attend a recital where an
American
soprano sang this song and moved me to tears. I happened to make her
acquaintance and came to know that she was endlessly sad because her
husband
had to live in the US while she was trying to settle in Europe. I won't
go
more into the details, think you'll get the idea.

 Maybe Francesco,
 Dowland or Weiss didn't feel about their art as we today imagine
Beethoven
felt
 about his art, but does that make their art less of a personal
expression?


Okay, probably I have misunderstood what to you is a personal
expression. To
me it is expressing your own true emotions and feelings towards others.
That
is difficult business if there is no appropriate musical language for
doing
that. Composers from Beethoven to Wagner and Strauss (to name a few
Europeans) invented a musical language so as to express personal
feelings
explicitly.

 in essence there was no difference between Beethoven and earlier
composers
 like Weiss, Dowland or Francesco. There was a difference in their
social
role and
 stature, the value and regard of their works, but perhaps not in their
own
 attitude to what must have been their children: ther compositions.

We'll never know for sure as they didn't elaborate on this topic (as far
as
I know). There is an anecdote about Chopin that I read somewhere. When
Chopin came to Paris, he heard a local pianist playing music by Chopin.
Chopin is said to have been startled as that pianist was playing the
music
so emotionally 

  But taking pieces of lute music as
  expressing personal emotions of their composers
 
 That could never be the basis of an interpretation. Only as a starting
point of
 how we would feel what we imagine the composer would have felt.
Today's
 interpreter is the translator of these feelings.

Yes. Take e. g. the Tombeaux for Logy and for Cajetan by Weiss. Very
expressive pieces, full of dark minor chords and remote keys. Perhaps we
like to take them as personal expressions of grief. Weiss would not have
dared, I suppose.

  settings that the music probably was performed in (like royal
  festivities with dances, civic parties etc.)
 
 How boring: music without emotions but historical setting only. 

I'm sorry? Festivities and parties without emotions? Without expression
of
true personal emotions, possibly, but certainly not without emotions!
Every
little musical phrase expresses gestures which are connected to
emotions.
That's the thing with any kind of code: If only you're trained to
appreciate, you'll be able to enjoy.

 For sure, the
 programmes I play are full of historical references, I play early
music
after all,
 but to make it into sounding music, the stuff that makes people cry or
laugh, I
 have to bring in emotions ...

. of your own. 

  rather than on possible personal
  expressions of the composers.
 
 .. and what better source of emotions, in a historical setting, can I
draw
on than
 the emotions that the composer is conveying to me through his
composition?

The composer is conveying? The opposite is true, I think, in that we
carry
our emotions into what we hear because we always search for meaning.

 'Flow my tears' -  what more do I need for inspiration?

And that's what makes you an accomplished artist. I'm sure, though, you
will
perform it differently from E. Karamazov who didn't need more for
inspiration as well.

 That's the beauty of it: convince yourself and you'll convince your
audience. And
 if it doesn't work, find another job. ;-) People who are making music
for
their
 audiences only, are entertainers. A good job, and we can learn much
from
them,
 but it needs a 

[LUTE] Bandora tunes

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Stuart,

Very nice playing. It's a pleasant change to hear solos played on the
bandora. I would guess that the instrument you are using has unequal
fretting in some sort of meantone system, because the third of the last
chord of the second piece is (inevitably?) slightly sharp.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Stuart Walsh
Sent: 13 June 2011 12:29
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] bandora tunes

I've got the Lute Society's bandora on loan. It's a nice instrument.  
used to have one years ago but I'd  forgotten how difficult it is to get

these things tolerably in tune. Here's a go at three very short pieces 
from Thomas Brown's 'Bandore and lyra viol book' (about which I know 
nothing), copied out years ago by Donald Gill. (And thanks to Peter 
Forrester). The tuning isn't quite right - but not too far out, I hope.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipGcIA8EUX8

and here's a couple of RT's uke tunes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f22GLlsLZug


Stuart



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[LUTE] My playing

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Konstantin,

Well done on your YouTube performance. There are many positive things
you do, but you invite criticism, so here are a few thoughts, which I
hope you will find helpful.

Firstly your lute playing. Make sure you play every note cleanly. For
example, I cannot hear e6 at the end of the second bar, although I can
see that your third finger is in the correct place for it.

I notice that there are places where you don't play exactly what is
written. For example, you play

 |\  |\
 |\  |
 |\  |
a
___e__c__e___
_d___
_
_
_c___

instead of

 |\  |\
 |\  |
 |\  |
_
f__e__c__e___
_d___
_
_
_c___


and


_e__
_a__

_c__


instead of


_e__
_f__
_e__
_c__



I think it is better to stick with what Dowland wrote. You may find it
easier to use a barré for


  |\ |\
  |\ |
  |\ |
_
4f__3e__1c__3e___
_2d__
_
_
_1c__


Speed is a subjective matter, but I feel the song is a little too fast,
and there is a feeling of rushing. The song is about love, so take your
time.

There are some things which need to be corrected by your singer friend.
He has a nice voice well suited to lute songs, but he is singing in a
foreign language, so makes a few mistakes.

Come again needs to be more of a welcome, and one which includes the
audience. His eyes need to be looking up, not glued to the music.

The t of delight is lost, which is actually a very common thing with
native English singers, but the t needs to be heard.

The words to share should be to hear. This is all very sensual
stuff, with Dowland going through the senses, a courtship consisting of
five increasingly erotic verbs: to see, to hear, to touch, to kiss, to
die (which is nothing to do with death). Dowland is very careful to
write crotchet rests, and, without hamming it up, it is appropriate to
introduce some heavy breathing - a little audible gasp on each crotchet
rest. It is very important to give the word die its full length (your
friend clips it short each time). Many singers overlook the crotchet
rest after die, and think it is more musical to have a long,
uninterrupted line, but this is not what Dowland wrote. The rests are
very important, and all must be observed.

The words with they again should be with thee again.

It is important to pronounce th correctly: sympathy, not
sympa-tee, and through, not true. The letter i is not right in
sit, which your friend pronounces as seat. The word deadly should
sound deddly, not diddly.

Dowland's Come again is one of the most erotic songs of all time. The
words come and die have two meanings. If your singer friend can give
more thought to the meaning of the words, sing from memory, look up, and
gently seduce his audience, he will win many admirers.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.














-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Êîíñòàíòèí Ùåíèêîâ
Sent: 06 June 2011 23:59
To: lute List
Subject: [LUTE] My playing

Hi, all
Me and my friend recorded two songs by Jonn Dowland.
I will be glad to know your opinions, tips. I wait criticism))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riT4fMWnxaQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlnaVfE2-7Y

Konstantin Shchenikov


--

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[LUTE] Streaming lute gig

[Stewart McCoy]

Musicians in the Middle Ages were strolling minstrels; lutenists play
mediaeval music on a mediaeval instrument, so all lutenists must be
strolling minstrels, who wander around when they play.

When faced with this sort of thinking, I don't bother giving a potted
history of the lute. Instead I explain that strolling minstrels strolled
from one gig to the next, but when they got there, they actually sat
down to play. I then ask for a chair without arms, a socket to plug in
my amplifier, and free beer for the duration of the gig. It's important
to give an authentic performance.

Dressing up in daft outfits is a pain, and should be avoided at all
costs. Charging extra for a performance in costume is a useful
deterrent. You can be sure that anyone who wants you to dress up, is not
interested in listening to the music. Always start with Greensleeves.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Ron Andrico
Sent: 06 June 2011 11:44
To: christophertstet...@gmail.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: streaming lute gig

   Chris:
   There is some pictorial evidence of strolling lutenists from the
   English masque and French ballet de cour.  I'm only venturing a guess
   about this but perhaps the cinematic idea of the strolling lutenist
   came from the influence of German directors like Fritz Lang in the
   early days of Hollywood, incorporating echos of the Wandervogel
   aesthetic.
   Best wishes,
   Ron Andrico
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 23:23:08 -0400
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
From: christophertstet...@gmail.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: streaming lute gig
However, I'm wondering where the idea of the strolling lutenist
comes
from. I'm not an expert, and I don't play one on TV, but I can't
recall any original pictorial or written sources indicating anyone
playing the lute and walking. Is it a 19th century romanticisation?
A pre-Raphaelite fantasy? Anyone know, or have an opinion?
   --


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[LUTE] Sally Gardens

[Stewart McCoy]

Very nice indeed. Well done. I hadn't realised that sally meant
willow.

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Guitar  Lute
Sent: 24 May 2011 13:41
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Sally Gardens

Sally Gardens from my book The Magic Lute performed by Trond 
Bengtson, this is really a wonderful wonderful performance of my 
arrangement and variation. Thank you so much for posting this Trond. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vgWcrEbIpE

Allan

www.guitarandlute.com



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[LUTE] Private lesson - s*p*a*m*m*e*r* again

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear David,

Pastor Steven contacted me too. If he arranges lessons for all the
people he has contacted, Evelyn will be a busy girl. However, I would be
happy to meet either or both of them on Mat 10th - a non-existent date
for a non-existent Pastor and a non-existent daughter.

All the best,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of David van Ooijen
Sent: 30 April 2011 21:44
To: lutelist Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: private lesson - s*p*a*m*m*e*r* again

   This time it's Pastor Steven fishing with his daughter as bait for
your
   whatever's on your bank account (not much, if you're a musician ...).
   David

   -- Forwarded message --
   From: pastor.steven Paul [1]pastor.stevenpa...@yahoo.com
   Date: 30 April 2011 19:34
   Subject: private lesson
   To:
   Hello,
  How are you today?I got your contact email while searching for
music
   or dance teacher on the internet. I have a daughter(Evelyn) who is
   interested studying music or dancing. Evelyn doesn't have any
previous
   in the music but she is ready to learn.She's a 15 year old girl with
a
   very sharp brain. she's coming down there to your location for the
   lessons. We base in Toronto but I just got a new job appointment in
   Edinburgh,UK and i want Evelyn to come over to your present location
to
   attend the lessons before she will finally come to Edinburgh,UK to
stay
   with me. If you have agreed to accept Evelyn as your student,please
get
   back to me with the following information..

   *Total fees for two months lessons(two hours lessons in a week)

   *Your teaching location and phone number.

I want the lessons to start by Mat 10th.

Looking forward to hearing from you.

   --
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [3]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
   --

References

   1. mailto:pastor.stevenpa...@yahoo.com
   2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/


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[LUTE] My first lute solo

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Êîíñòàíòèí Ùåíèêîâ,

Well done for playing Queen Elizabeth's Galliard from memory. Am I right
in thinking that you learned the piece from a transcription in staff
notation, rather the original tablature?

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Êîíñòàíòèí Ùåíèêîâ
Sent: 06 April 2011 17:02
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Net
Subject: [LUTE] My first lute solo

This is my first recording on lute solo.
I am guitarist, I play lute 4 months.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeNbkf1u1SQ
What do you think about it?



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[LUTE] My first lute solo

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Konstantin,

Thanks for your message. The reason I thought you might have learned the
piece from staff notation is that there is a wrong note (d1 instead of
e1) which occurs four times (in bars 8, 16, 21 and 29). It is so easy to
mix up accidentals when reading from staff notation - something I do
frequently - but it is less likely to occur when reading from tablature.

However, more important than these few notes is the overall impression
of your performance, which I think is very good, and your phrasing and
expression show an innate musicality. Good luck with your lute playing,
and I look forward to further clips on YouTube.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: Êîíñòàíòèí Ùåíèêîâ [mailto:konstantin.n...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 08 April 2011 12:15
To: Stewart McCoy
Subject: Re: [LUTE] My first lute solo

Hi, Stewart! 
You are partly right.
In first time I played this piece on guitar from transcription. Later,
when I started playing the lute I played from original tabulature. But
the transcription is stuck deep in my memory what confuses me sometime.

Konstantin Shchenikov





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[LUTE] lute music of shakespeare's time' Newcomb

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Charles,

This book is essentially a modern edition of William Barley, _A new
Booke of Tabliture_ (London, 1596). Newcomb gives the tablature with a
transcription into staff notation. His introduction uses a proper font,
but all the music is copied by hand.

There is a bit about Newcomb's edition at

http://www.psupress.org/books/titles/0-271-73080-3.html

and about a facsimile edition of Barley's book at

http://www.saulbgroen.nl/pdf/bandora.pdf

(This last is followed by a description of a lute book from Mars.)

There is a facsimile of Barley's book online at

http://musickshandmade.com/lute/facbooks

although I had problems accessing it with my computer just now.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Charles Browne
Sent: 05 April 2011 21:28
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] [lute]lute music of shakespeare's time' Newcomb

Dear lutelist. 
can anyone tell me whether this book is worth getting, for its music
content? I understand that there was an article about it in JSTOR but I
cant get it in our library and I was wondering about the book's contents
thanks

Charles 









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[LUTE] Crotchet rests

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear All,


   Not specifically about lutes, I'm afraid, but I thought maybe someone
   might be able to help with a query which was passed on to me this
   morning.


   In the 18^th century a crotchet rest looked like a mirror image of a
   quaver rest. We don't write them like that any more. When is it the
   modern crotchet rest replaced the old one? This is the message I
   received:


   Hope I'm not being a nuisance but thought you might have a quick answer
   on a rather abstruse point about the dating of crotchet rests. Someone
   here has just given me the printed parts for a 'Premiere Divertissement
   pour flute, violon et guitarre'. There's no title page and no
   composer's name. The donor is the wife of a flute playing retired GP
   who has had to give up his music because of failing mental capacity. He
   remembers the German colleague who gave him the music but he has no
   further recollection of the music or idea who its composer might be.
   The music is, I think, early 19th century but I have failed to identify
   it. (If I sent you a photocopy do you think you (or Philip) could look
   at it to see if you had any ideas ?). The music is not, I further
   suspect, of any great significance but it is pleasant enough. The parts
   are engraved and printed on laid (i.e.hand-made) rag paper - which is
   something of a pointer to an early(ish) date. I have, though, not been
   able to spot any identifying water marks. The crotchet rests are like
   reversed quaver rests (i.e. not the kind that have two curved lines one
   above the other).  How far would this be a clue to the date ?  When did
   the more modern type of crotchet rest come into normal use ? Please
   don't waste time on this but I wondered whether you knew when the
   change in the normal form of the rest happened and could give a quick
   answer.


   Can anyone offer any thoughts?


   Stewart McCoy.



   --


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[LUTE] Crotchet rests

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Meg,

Many thanks indeed for your message. In fact this does help a lot,
because it rules out using the crotchet rest as a means of dating
musical sources. Clearly I shall need to get hold of a copy of the music
to be able to make any progress in finding out what it is.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Margaret Munck
Sent: 13 March 2011 15:44
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Crotchet rests

   I don't think you will be able to pin down a very precise date, and
it
   probably varied from country to country and publisher to publisher. I
   have some late 19thC editions of piano music with the modern crotchet
   rest and others from the same period with the old style.
   On my shelves I find The Revised Church Hymnary (OUP 1929) is still
   using the old style, but The Church Anthem Book (OUP 1933) uses new
   style.  Both of these are properly engraved, i.e. not movable type.
   FWIW, I still use a version of the old style when copying by hand -
it
   is much quicker. The stroke goes down-up-right, and looks a bit like
a
   letter r. Some hire orchestral parts are reproductions of hand
copied
   originals, and some of these, e.g. Malcolm Arnold, also use old
style,
   no doubt for the same reason. Arnold's copyist's version looks
similar
   a handwritten square root sign, with a curl at the bottom left rather
   than an acute angle.
   I don't thinks this helps you very much!
   regards
   Meg

   On 13 March 2011 13:15, Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

   Dear All,
   Not specifically about lutes, I'm afraid, but I thought maybe
 someone
   might be able to help with a query which was passed on to me this
   morning.
   In the 18^th century a crotchet rest looked like a mirror image
of
 a
   quaver rest. We don't write them like that any more. When is it
 the
   modern crotchet rest replaced the old one? This is the message I
   received:
   Hope I'm not being a nuisance but thought you might have a quick
 answer
   on a rather abstruse point about the dating of crotchet rests.
 Someone
   here has just given me the printed parts for a 'Premiere
 Divertissement
   pour flute, violon et guitarre'. There's no title page and no
   composer's name. The donor is the wife of a flute playing retired
 GP
   who has had to give up his music because of failing mental
 capacity. He
   remembers the German colleague who gave him the music but he has
 no
   further recollection of the music or idea who its composer might
 be.
   The music is, I think, early 19th century but I have failed to
 identify
   it. (If I sent you a photocopy do you think you (or Philip) could
 look
   at it to see if you had any ideas ?). The music is not, I further
   suspect, of any great significance but it is pleasant enough. The
 parts
   are engraved and printed on laid (i.e.hand-made) rag paper -
which
 is
   something of a pointer to an early(ish) date. I have, though, not
 been
   able to spot any identifying water marks. The crotchet rests are
 like
   reversed quaver rests (i.e. not the kind that have two curved
 lines one
   above the other).  How far would this be a clue to the date ?
 When did
   the more modern type of crotchet rest come into normal use ?
 Please
   don't waste time on this but I wondered whether you knew when the
   change in the normal form of the rest happened and could give a
 quick
   answer.
   Can anyone offer any thoughts?
   Stewart McCoy.
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 To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. mailto:lu...@tiscali.co.uk
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] MORE Re: Crotchet rests

[Stewart McCoy]

Thanks very much for your help, Arthur. Following your lead I have
located the music by Kummer at the ISMLP site. I'll pass on the web
address to the chap who asked about the music. Hopefully it will match
what he has. If not, I hope to get a scan of what he has.

All the best,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of A. J. Ness
Sent: 13 March 2011 20:03
To: A. J. Ness; Stewart McCoy; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] MORE Re: Crotchet rests

I downloaded the ISMLP copy, Stewart.  I have trouble sending *.PDF
files, 
so if you can download it yourself, that would be best.  If I send it,
I'd 
have to split it into several files.  But will do so if you wish.
- Original Message - 
From: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net
To: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk; Lute Net 
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:51 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Crotchet rests


 For some reason I have never been able to remember English terminology
for
 musical notes. But that's my problem, not yours, Stewart.

 You asked about an undated, anonymous Premier Divertissement--sic
 (Divertissement is masculine,
 but maybe the publisher misspelled it), most likely the work by
Kummer***:

   In the 18th century a crotchet [quarter-note, hereafter Q] rest
   looked like a mirror image [hereafter mE=Q] of a
   quaver [eighth-note, hereafter E] rest. We don't write them
   like that way any more. When is it the
   modern crotchet rest replaced the old one?

 I don't think the shape of  Q and E rests could be used as a reliable
 indicator of the date of a given piece of music.   The mE=Q rest 
 originates
 in
 the earliest mensural notation.  Yet, in the Clavier Übung
 (1739) engraved by JSB
 himself the modern Q rest is clearly used.  Also in the 18th (and 
 earlier?)
 century
 the
 Q rest was sometimes shaped like a lowercase Z. When I played
 professionally, often from ancient orchestral parts at
 outdoor ballet and opera concerts in San Francisco's Stern Grove, I
 encountered printed parts, invariably from France as late as the
 1940s which used the mE=Q rest (e.g., Les Sylphides [1940] and
 Carmen) .  You would expect that while in such long use someone would
have
 taken a
 pencil
 and marked the mE=Q rests as Q rests.  But the parts I read from were
 always clean.  It's
 surprisingly very easy to sight read music that uses E and mE=Q rests.
 Literally sight read.  Those afternoon concerts had 2 hours of music
 prepared
 in a single one-hour morning rehearsal.

 ***It's probably Kaspar Kummer, [Trois] Divertissement[s], Op. 92,
first
 publ. in
 Offenbach aM, by André ca. 1872; plate no. 6268.  There's a copy in
the
 ISMLP.
 The first divertissement is in C major, Allegretto scherzando.  But
you
 probably have another edition.

 AJN
 ==

 This is the message I received:

   Hope I'm not being a nuisance but thought you might have a quick
answer
   on a rather abstruse point about the dating of crotchet rests.
Someone
   here has just given me the printed parts for a 'Premiere
Divertissement
   pour flute, violon et guitarre'. There's no title page and no
   composer's name. The donor is the wife of a flute playing retired
GP
   who has had to give up his music because of failing mental
capacity. He
   remembers the German colleague who gave him the music but he has no
   further recollection of the music or idea who its composer might
be.
   The music is, I think, early 19th century but I have failed to
identify
   it. (If I sent you a photocopy do you think you (or Philip) could
look
   at it to see if you had any ideas ?). The music is not, I further
   suspect, of any great significance but it is pleasant enough. The
parts
   are engraved and printed on laid (i.e.hand-made) rag paper - which
is
   something of a pointer to an early(ish) date. I have, though, not
been
   able to spot any identifying water marks. The crotchet rests are
like
   reversed quaver rests (i.e. not the kind that have two curved lines
one
   above the other).  How far would this be a clue to the date ?  When
did
   the more modern type of crotchet rest come into normal use ? Please
   don't waste time on this but I wondered whether you knew when the
   change in the normal form of the rest happened and could give a
quick
   answer.


   Can anyone offer any thoughts?


   Stewart McCoy.



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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 

[LUTE] Sistine Chapel

[Stewart McCoy]

Thanks, Monica. I'll pass this on to the chap who sent me the link.

All the best,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Monica Hall
Sent: 21 February 2011 17:55
To: Monica Hall
Cc: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sistine Chapel

It is the Benedictus from Palestrina's Missa Papae Marcelli.

Monica



- Original Message - 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Sistine Chapel



 - Original Message - 
 From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk
 To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 2:54 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Sistine Chapel


   Not specifically about lutes, I'm afraid, but probably of interest
to
   some members of this list. I forward the message which was sent to
me
   this afternoon. I would be interested to know what the music is.


   Stewart McCoy.





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[LUTE] Sistine Chapel

[Stewart McCoy]

   Not specifically about lutes, I'm afraid, but probably of interest to
   some members of this list. I forward the message which was sent to me
   this afternoon. I would be interested to know what the music is.


   Stewart McCoy.


   -Original Message-
   Sent: 21 February 2011 14:37
   Subject: Sistine Chapel


   This is the most amazing link (at the bottom of this email).  When it
   opens, just move the mouse slowly around the whole room.  Just touch
   the plus sign in the left corner and you can see the paintings up
   close.  Just like being there.  Right click and choose full screen.


   Make sure your sound is on.  The music is out of this world!


   Play with the mouse and move this around and increase, decrease the
   size.makes you dizzy. This is amazing..
   Pretty neat - it will get you dizzy if you are not careful. Use your
   Mouse to slide and roll for a very interesting full tour of the Sistine
   Chapel. Hold your cursor down on right side of screen and slowly move
   pictures around. Amazing sight.
   TO VIEW EVERY PART OF THE MICHAEL ANGELO'S MASTERPIECE,


   JUST CLICK AND DRAG YOUR ARROW IN THE DIRECTION YOU WISH TO SEE.
   MOVE THE CURSOR SLOWLY!!!

   In the lower left corner, click on the plus to move closer, on the
   minus to move away.
   This virtual tour of the Sistine Chapel is incredible. Apparently done
   by Villanova at the request of the Vatican...
   [1]Http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html



   --

References

   1. http://www.vatican.va/various/cappelle/sistina_vr/index.html


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[LUTE] Pier Francesco Valentini

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear All,


   I have a SPES facsimile of two manuscripts compiled by Pier Francesco
   Valentini in the 1640s: Ordine il quale serve a sonare, et intavolare
   nel Lauto; Il Leuto Anatomizzato. Among many things, he seems to
   advocate equal temperament. The quality of the facsimile is not good,
   and it is difficult to read. Is there a modern transcription available?


   Stewart McCoy.

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[LUTE] Future facsimiles from the Lute Society

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Martyn,

I've found it. The resolution isn't brilliant, but it's better than
nothing. It's at

http://musickshandmade.com/lute/facbooks/view/17

All the best,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson
Sent: 02 February 2011 09:42
To: 'lute net'; Denys Stephens
Cc: lute...@aol.com
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society



   Dear Denys,

   That  the Lord Herbert Of Cherbury facsimile is next on the Society's
   facsimile publication list is good news indeed - thank you.

   For those who can't wait,  there was a digital download available on
   the internet a couple of years ago and for the most part pretty
   readable. I printed off a couple of pages to replace some of my old,
   very poor, copy but recall that all pages seemed to be there.  It may
   still be out there but unfortunately I forgot to note the
   source/address - perhaps others know?

   Of course the problem with it is that there are none of the excellent
   scholarly notes, concordances etc we have from you and collegues in
the
   Society. So I look forward to this edition.

   Martyn

 From: Denys Stephens denyssteph...@sky.com
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
 To: 'lute net' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Cc: lute...@aol.com
 Date: Tuesday, 1 February, 2011, 20:37

   Dear Arthur  All,
   Further to Chris Goodwin's comments reported below I am glad to be
able
   to
   add
   that preparatory work on the Lord Herbert Of Cherbury facsimile is at
   an
   advanced stage and is going well. I would hesitate to predict a
   completion
   date -
   as with all Lute Society publications the preparation is carried out
by
   dedicated individuals giving their time to the work involved, and
   sometimes
   there are unexpected interruptions. But it is definitely the next
   planned
   Lute Society facsimile, and a publication date within the next year
   seems
   entirely possible at the moment. When to publish it after the
   preparation is
   complete will be a committee decision, and as has already been said,
   the
   Lute Society's ability to produce new facsimilies does depend on
   support
   for the existing publications.
   It's good to see Robert Spencer's name mentioned in the context of
the
   Cherbury manuscript. His vision of making lute manuscripts available
   in facsimile is still a major inspiration for the Lute Society's work
   in that field. We don't have specific plans beyond Cherbury, but I
   very much hope that the series will be able to continue, ideally
   until every English lute manuscript is in print. That will take
   some time, but it's good to hold onto the vision.
   Best wishes,
   Denys
   Denys Stephens
   General Editor of Music Editions
   The Lute Society
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
   Of A. J. Ness
   Sent: 01 February 2011 15:08
   To: [3]simon.lamb...@stfc.ac.uk; Lute List
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
   Here's a link to the Society's list of facsimiles, etc., in case
there
   are
   other things that interest you. Dd 2.11 isn't listed yet:
   [4]http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/pages/catalogue
   Some of us have had to wait for 30 years for the Lord Herbert
   facsimile.
   Bob Spencer had it at the top of his list, but was unsuccessful in
   getting
   the library to release it for a facsimile. It would be at the top of
my
   list, too. It was quite a frustrating experience for him.  He would
   mutter,
   We'll just have to wait until he [the librarian] retires.
   Dd 2.11 is listed in the pipeline:
   [5]http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/pages/pipeline
   - Original Message -
   From: [6]simon.lamb...@stfc.ac.uk
   To: [7]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 7:39 AM
   Subject: [LUTE] Future facsimiles from the Lute Society
There have been some queries about the Lute Society's future plans
   for
publishing facsimiles, following the launch of Cambridge Dd.2.11.
   Chris
Goodwin, the Secretary of the Society, tells me that the next on
the
   list
is Herbert of Cherbury, though Dd.2.11 will have to pay for itself
   first -
which sounds like a good reason to go and buy a copy if you haven't
   yet
done so!
   
Simon Lambert
Oxford, England
   
--
Scanned by iCritical.
   
   
   
To get on or off this list see list information at
[8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   2.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=simon.lamb...@stfc.ac.uk
   4. http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/pages/catalogue
   5. http://www.lutesoc.co.uk/pages/pipeline
   6.

[LUTE] Lute songs for bass voice?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Franz,

You could make a start with Fuenllana. Some of his songs have the bottom
line sung by the soloist.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Franz Mechsner
Sent: 24 January 2011 08:45
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] lute songs for bass voice?

   Dear Lutenists,

   I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or
   vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find
any
   for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed
   for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty -
weren't
   there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they could)
   in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources?

   Best regards
   Franz


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[LUTE] Lute songs for bass voice?

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Franz,

You have touched on a fundamental problem with renaissance music. So
much of it was conceived in terms of polyphony, so singing soprano and
alto lines down an octave rarely works well. The frottole collected by
Bossinensis and published by Petrucci in 1509 and 1511, for example, are
a dead loss when sung down an octave. It's OK to use instruments instead
of singers, so a soprano accompanied by a lute and/or a few viols
playing the lowest voices will work well.

Unfortunately, transposing the cantus down an octave is unsatisfactory,
since it obscures the polyphony. That is presumably why Fuenllana did
what he did. Rather than transpose the top line down an octave, he gave
one of the lines to a singer to sing at the correct pitch, including
some songs where the soloist sang the bass line. I think that is the way
for a solo bass singer to proceed with polyphonic music.

A hundred years later, songs were conceived more as solo songs, and I
have in mind English lute songs from 1597 onwards. Although many of them
were published so that they could be sung as part-songs with four
voices, they are essentially solo songs. We know from Robert Dowland's
_Musical Banquet_ (London, 1610), that the songs in that collection were
to be sung down an octave by a man, not at the written pitch. Doing that
generally works well with other English lute songs too, but that isn't
going to help you find repertoire as a bass singer.

There is much you can do if you find a friendly soprano, including
singing duets such as Dowland's Flow my teares or the dialogue Humor
say, but that doesn't answer your question about solo songs for a bass
singer. I hope there will be some more specific suggestions forthcoming
from Lutenetters to add to Fuenllana's songs.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Hector
Sent: 24 January 2011 09:55
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute songs for bass voice?

Dear Franz, 

There are many songs in the alto range that should fit you comfortably.
The 'problem' is that you will be singing at a transposed range (down an
octave) thus not matching the lute in the 'usual' way. I really don't
mind that, although some people do care. You can also take songs in the
soprano range and transpose them down a 4th or 5th and play them with a
big lute in E or D (a classical guitar will do the trick for six course
music). The 'singing' line for many of the vihuela songs is the tenor
line, you could take those songs and transpose them down a 4th or 5th,
play them with a big lute and voila!

Quick vihuela examples:

Milan: Con pavor recordó el moro 
Narvaez: Y la mi cinta dorada
Valderrábano: Fuga a tres, primero grado (for solmisation, bass line)

There is also Valderrábano's 'Segundo Libro de motetes y otras cosas
para cantar y tañer contrabaxo y en otras partes tenor' [Second book of
motets and other things to sing and play the bass and in other instances
the tenor].

Hope this helps,

Hector
 



On Jan 24, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Franz Mechsner wrote:

   Dear Lutenists,
 
   I would love to sing some of the beautiful Renaissance lute (or
   vihuela) songs by myself (in private of course...), but cannot find
any
   for bass voice. Is it that songs were exclusively or mainly composed
   for higher pitches of voice? If it was for an ideal of beauty -
weren't
   there male amateurs who liked to sing as well (as good as they
could)
   in these times? Could you point me to some suitable sources?
 
   Best regards
   Franz
 
 
   --
 
 
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 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Shakespeare settings

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Ben,

I guess you already have the obvious ones:

Morley - It was a lover and his lass
Morley - O Mistress Mine
Anon - Willow Song
Jones - Farewell dear love
Robert Johnson - Full fathom Five, Where the bee sucks, etc

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.


-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of be...@interlog.com
Sent: 11 January 2011 16:08
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Shakespeare settings

Hi, all! I'm doing a concert of Renaissance and Restoration settings  
of Shakespeare lyrics, as well as including some lutesong from the  
Elizabethan era - Dowland, Pilkington. I've got some Thomas Arne  
settings of lyrics from As You Like It. Any other suggestions for  
similar rep? There are a number of singers involved for madrigal  
singing, as well as theorbo/lute and harpshichord/organ. Thanks! Ben S



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[LUTE] Kapsperger's temperament

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Bruno,

It could well be that equal temperament was intended. It has become
fashionable in recent years for lutenists and viol players to experiment
with unequally placed frets. I have done so myself. However, the
historical evidence, e.g. Praetorius, points to the widespread use of
equal temperament in the 17th century.

Best wishes,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Bruno Correia
Sent: 07 January 2011 19:08
To: List LUTELIST
Subject: [LUTE] Kapsperger's temperament

   A question for those who play Kapsperger lute pieces: what
temperament
   fits best his music? I find 1/4 mesotonic quite good, but there are a
   few spots that are not that sweet. I just started using a tastino on
   the 1st fret and that creates some problems too. For example, when
   there is a barre on the first position (Db major chord), the d flat
on
   the 3rd course (4rth fret) is really out of tune...



   Any advice is welcomed.











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[LUTE] Kapsperger's temperament

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear Andrew,


   The best place to find a multitude of historical references to
   temperaments on fretted instruments is Mark Lindley, Lutes, Viols 
   Temperaments (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1984). The passage
   from Praetorius is quoted on page 36:


   Vff den Violen da Gamba, vnd den Lauten ... die Semitonia, weder majora
   noch minora, sondern vielmehr intermedia koennen vnd muessen genennt
   werden. Sintemal meines erachtens ein jeder Bund ... 4 1/2 Commata in
   sich halten thut/da sonsten das Semitonium majus fuenff , das Semit.
   Minus aber nur vier Commata in sich begreiffet.


   Translated as


   On gambas and lutes, the semitones can and must be called
   'intermediate' much rather than either 'major' or 'minor', since, in my
   opinion, each fret marks off 4 1/2 commas. Whereas otherwise the major
   semitone [would] comprise five and the minor semitone only four commas.


   The violin fingerboard you mention sounds most interesting. Please
   could you give more details.


   Best wishes,


   Stewart.




   -Original Message-
   From: Andrew White [mailto:andywh...@optusnet.com.au]
   Sent: 09 January 2011 12:50
   To: Stewart McCoy
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Kapsperger's temperament


   Stewart,


   Do you have any references from Praetorious handy? I'd be interested to
   hear them.

   I've been reading Ross Duffin's recent book and he has a rather
   different opinion.


   Interestingly, someone recently showed me a violin finger board from
   the 18th century (I believe) with slots cut in it, intended for
   students to know where to place their fingers. What I noticed, and this
   hadn't even occurred to the person showing it to me, was that the slot
   were unequally spaced.


   Andrew




   On 09/01/2011, at 10:31 PM, Stewart McCoy wrote:


Dear Bruno,

   

It could well be that equal temperament was intended. It has become

fashionable in recent years for lutenists and viol players to
   experiment

with unequally placed frets. I have done so myself. However, the

historical evidence, e.g. Praetorius, points to the widespread use of

equal temperament in the 17th century.

   

Best wishes,

   

Stewart.

   

-Original Message-

From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On

Behalf Of Bruno Correia

Sent: 07 January 2011 19:08

To: List LUTELIST

Subject: [LUTE] Kapsperger's temperament

   

  A question for those who play Kapsperger lute pieces: what

temperament

  fits best his music? I find 1/4 mesotonic quite good, but there are
   a

  few spots that are not that sweet. I just started using a tastino
   on

  the 1st fret and that creates some problems too. For example, when

  there is a barre on the first position (Db major chord), the d flat

on

  the 3rd course (4rth fret) is really out of tune...

   

   

   

  Any advice is welcomed.

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

   

  --

   

   

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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   

   

   


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[LUTE] lute piece by Brian Wright (and fret n)

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Stuart,

John Dowland's Mr Langton's Galliard requires fret p. Cf. Poulton, p.
119.

One reason notes don't sound so good above the L fret may be because
your finger dampens the fingerboard a little, when it holds down
strings, which it wouldn't do pressing against the fingerboard. 

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Stuart Walsh
Sent: 14 December 2010 11:16
To: sterling price
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: lute piece by Brian Wright (and fret n)

On 14/12/2010 00:02, sterling price wrote:

 Most lutes have way too small body frets as they come from the maker.
I always
 make bigger more suitable frets on my lutes. This often means that
they get
 -taller- as they go up from fret K, especially if there is 14 frets.
Of course
 this all depends on the action of the lute.

 --Sterling


14 frets? Is there music that calls for 14 frets?

On my lute the high g, fret n, sounds weak, very plinky an unfocused. I 
can't imagine what a fourteenth fret would sound like!


Stuart




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[LUTE] Leycester's Commonplace book

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear Rainer,


   Sorry to be slow replying. I have been away in Germany for a few days.


   Perhaps the most frustrating thing about Sir Peter Leycester, is the
   inventory of books in his library - all kinds of musical sources, both
   printed and manuscript, and nearly all of them now lost.


   The so-called Tabley lute book survives, and Robert Spencer had plans
   for Boethius/ Severinus Press to publish it in facsimile. Unfortunately
   Bob died before the project could be completed.


   As far as I know, there are three other surviving sources of interest
   to musicians:


   1) DLT/B 31: Sir Peter Leycester's music book. I have a photocopy of
   this manuscript, which I bought from Chester Archives in 1980. It
   begins with a long history of music stretching back to biblical times,
   together with information about the viol. All this is similar to the
   sort of things in Mary Burwell's lute tutor. There follows a
   considerable amount of music in tablature for the lyra viol, and if I
   remember right, there are nine different tunings.


   2) Manuscript DLT/18: A manuscript written by Sir Peter about music. I
   looked at this manuscript some time in 1980 when I visited the Chester
   Archives, but did not find much of interest. I copied a few items from
   this manuscript in pencil, but I can't guarantee my accuracy, because
   it was such a long time ago. This is what I copied:


   f.9. Josephus de Instrumentis musicis quae David laudandum dominum
   paravit, sic scribit libro septimo antiquitatum Iudaicum ca. 10


   f. 9b. Isaacus Casaubonus in animadversionibus in Athenaeum Dip. Lib 8
   12. Solentmusici et harmonici 15b. Hydraulis instrumentum musicum apud
   Graecos.


   f.16. Hen. Stephanus. Cithara Graece


   f.17. Frigonum refertum esse a Syris inquit Jubas lib 4.


   f.18. De instrumentis musicis quae in usu erant apud Antquos Graecos et
   Romanos. De Cithara. [none of the other instruments is given]


   -o-O-o-


   I must have given up at that point, there being nothing of interest
   specifically about lutes and viols.


   3) DLT/B 33. When I visited the Chester Archives, I spent most of my
   time looking at this manuscript. (The viol book wasn't there.) I copied
   much of it, and my notes began:


   A Booke of miscellany Collections by mee

   P. Leycester.

   Anno Christi, 1656

   Written for the use of my sonne

   Liber. S.


   P. num: g.


   [Tells son how to behave.]

   On money.

   Armories.

   Surnames:

   Esquires Knights Guns

   Of sneezinge.

   Wassaile.

   Cursue.

   Wakes

   Of Homer

   Of the compasse of the earthe

   The measure of a mile

   Measures etc.

   Zodiaque/ Astronomers

   Archimedes.

   Of Musicke

   Of the land of Nod

   Of the Heathen Gods.


   -o-O-o-


   I then copied what Peter Leycester had to say about music, from folio
   72r to 90v. Mercifully he wrote in English. Perhaps of some interest to
   Lutenetters, is what Sir Peter writes about the cittern (fols 84v-85r):


   ffor the little Instrument called a Psittyrne, Anthony Holborne, and
   Tho: Robinson were most famous of any before them: and have both of
   them set out a Booke of Lessons for this Instrument: Holborne hath
   composed a Basse=parte for the viole to play unto the Psitterne with
   those Lessons set out in his booke: these lived about anno Do.^ni.
   1600. This instrument is not so apt for the voyce as the Lute or Viole:
   but yeilds a sweete and gentle sound, w.^ch the name importeth: for 4
   [4 letters in Greek = Psithera?] is a Greeke word,  commeth of [more
   Greek letters], w.^ch signifyes a whisperinge sound: like to which is
   the sound of this Instrument: some write it citharen, but falsely: for
   psithyren,  by contraction Psittyrne: It con=tayneth foure course of
   strings as at this day we use it: each course beinge doubled, havinge
   two stringes of one sound in each course: They are wire stringes:  is
   a [?] played uppon with a little peice of a Quill or Pen, wherewith the
   stringes be touched: It is now us=ually taught by Letters, not by Notes
   of Musicke.


   -o-O-o-


   There is quite a bit more. The easiest thing to do would be for me to
   try scanning my pencilled notes, and send them to you off List. Wayne's
   robot would intercept attachments.


   Best wishes,


   Stewart.






   -Original Message-
   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   Behalf Of adS
   Sent: 23 November 2010 21:24
   To: Lute net
   Subject: [LUTE] Leycester's Commonplace book


   Dear lute netters,


   does anbyody out there know (anything about) the  Commonplace of

   Sir Philip Leycester, dated 1656?


   Rainer adS




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   http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

[LUTE] EMS Lutes

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Andrew,

If you are looking for a reasonably priced lute, you could try James
Marriage. He sells a student lute @ £823:

http://www.jminstruments.com/instruments.aspx

Good luck,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Andrew White
Sent: 22 November 2010 02:46
To: lute list lute
Subject: [LUTE] EMS Lutes

Hi all,

I have a student interested in taking up the lute, but she doesn't want
to spent too much money initially. She asked about the EMS lutes,
unfortunately I have never seen or heard one before so I can't really
offer she any advise. 

I was hoping anyone familiar with these lutes could comment on their
quality / value for money, and whether these lutes are a good option for
a beginner with a small budget. 

Cheers,
Andrew




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[LUTE] EMS Lutes

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Andrew,

Your student would be better advised to look elsewhere.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Andrew White
Sent: 22 November 2010 02:46
To: lute list lute
Subject: [LUTE] EMS Lutes

Hi all,

I have a student interested in taking up the lute, but she doesn't want
to spent too much money initially. She asked about the EMS lutes,
unfortunately I have never seen or heard one before so I can't really
offer she any advise. 

I was hoping anyone familiar with these lutes could comment on their
quality / value for money, and whether these lutes are a good option for
a beginner with a small budget. 

Cheers,
Andrew




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[LUTE] Looking for the Robarts Lute Book (facsimile)

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Luca,

You could try Jacks, Pipes  Hammers.

http://www.jackspipesandhammers.com/

I think they sell old Boethius Press facsimiles. It would be worth
asking them.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Luca Manassero
Sent: 24 October 2010 16:15
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Looking for the Robarts Lute Book (facsimile)

Dear List,

 I am looking for the Robarts Lute Book in facsimile (not any 
partial transcription, like the one available for Django).
Boethius Press printed it in 1978 and is more or less impossible to buy,

despite many references on the web.
If somebody has a copy and is willing to put it in a scanner, I'll be 
EXTREMELY grateful. Just in case; I'd need Robert Spencer's introduction

as well ;-)

Thank you in advance,

Luca



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[LUTE] Resources

[Stewart McCoy]

Page 16 of the Caroso is a riot.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of G. Crona
Sent: 22 October 2010 14:17
To: Lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Resources

Yes, but that book is also available on sites elsewhere, f. ex. 
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/caroso/facsimile/ and the copy here is 30
Mb. 
862 (!) pages, many of them blank.

G.

- Original Message - 
From: mc41mc mc4...@yahoo.com
To: G. Crona kalei...@gmail.com
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 2:45 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Resources


   Hi,

   I also noticed this:

   Il ballarino di M. Fabritio Caroso da Sermoneta, diuiso in due
trattati
   m 



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[LUTE] Lute volume

[Stewart McCoy]

   Dear Martyn,


   The problem with discussions of this sort is that we often have
   different things in mind, and the thread has covered different kinds of
   performance.


   I agree that an amplifier would be out of place for a HIP performance
   say for a lute recital in a church, but if, for example, you agree to
   play the lute as background music for a social occasion, when people
   are sipping champagne, munching canapes, and talking loudly to each
   other, you have to be amplified or you won't be heard. My view is that
   it is better for people to hear and enjoy amplified lute music on such
   occasions, than not hear and not enjoy HIP lute music without
   amplification. I don't see anything odd about that.


   Best wishes,


   Stewart.




   -Original Message-
   From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk]
   Sent: 20 October 2010 08:55
   To: Stewart McCoy
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute volume



   Dear Stewart,


   This seems an odd view to me - surely if we have any pretensions to
   trying to hear what the early auditors heard we ought to eschew such
   electronic amplification - otherwise we end up with a sound world the
   composer could not have reasonable expected. If the lute is not audible
   and the player's skill (and ability to play loud - for a lute) is
   undoubted perhaps the difficulty lies in the unecessarily raised volume
   of other parts (vocal and instrumental)?


   I think the key is where you say 'if you want people to hear what you
   are playing' .


   yours


   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 20/10/10, Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [LUTE] Lute volume
 To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 20 October, 2010, 0:59

   Cher Valery,
   No, it's not HIP to play with amplification, but if you want people to
   hear what you are playing, there are times when amplification has its
   uses. Better to be amplified than not heard at all.
   Amities,
   Stewart.
   -Original Message-
   From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
   Behalf Of Sauvage Valery
   Sent: 19 October 2010 10:18
   To: [3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
   Is it an HIP position to play with amplification ? Not sure it is
   coherent
   with what was said about gut strings...
   If you want to search for the lost sound... gut strings, no amps. Same
   conditions as yesteryears...
   No ?
   V ;-)
   -Message d'origine-
   De : [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   De la
   part
   de Peter Martin
   Envoye : mardi 19 octobre 2010 11:11
   A : Lute list
   Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
  Ah, amplification...
  I remember that David T and others made some recommendations a
   couple
  of years ago about contact mikes suitable for lutes.  Any fresh
  updates?
  I fear my lute and saxophone combo won't ever get started without a
  little electronic help.
  Peter
  On 19 October 2010 09:44, Stewart McCoy [1][6]lu...@tiscali.co.uk
   wrote:
Dear Howard,
I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which
counts
with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor
   may
choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice,
because it
will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There
has
to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one)
   to
get
it right.
One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other
instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of
chemicals.
For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord,
reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet,
silvery
tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that
people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo
   in
a
group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice
the
difference if it wasn't there.
There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the
theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo
instruments to sit out.
I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument
   which
cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That
   is
one
reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years
   ago
-
why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players
   playing
the
same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would
   be
no
orchestra.
However, there are circumstances (playing background music while
people
talk, playing outside

[LUTE] Lute volume

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Howard,

I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which counts
with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may
choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice, because it
will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There has
to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to get
it right.

One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other
instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of chemicals.
For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord,
reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet, silvery
tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that
people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in a
group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice the
difference if it wasn't there.

There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the
theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo
instruments to sit out.

I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument which
cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That is one
reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years ago -
why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing the
same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would be no
orchestra.

However, there are circumstances (playing background music while people
talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room, playing
alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when plucked
instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all, and it
is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If that is
the case, there is little point playing without amplification. It is sad
if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of a
performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of howard posner
Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume

On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote:

 Howard,

Huh?  Wait, that's me!

   Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not hear me
as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable part
of the composite tonal aggregate?  

Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes.  There's no reason
to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850 or is
now.  Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other
instruments to form a homogenized sound.  Listen to a Schumann symphony
for an extreme example in its time. 

BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at your
concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the
answer would have been, Never.  I couldn't distinguish your sound from
the other first violinists'.  The same is true of the organist in most
ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz big
band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter).  The issue in these cases
is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the
group sounds with it than without it.  35 years ago Rick Kemp, then the
Steeleye Span bass player, told me how fascinated he was watching Neil
Young's bass player staring at the drummer's foot so he'd play together
with the bass drum, making one percussive bass instrument.  I don't
know whether it's good or bad, Kemp said.

 Frankly, I'm not a believer in this way of thinking for baroque music.
There's no evidence that baroque composers thought of blending tone
colors into new sonorities or Klangfarbenmelodie in the manner of
Ravel or Schoenberg.

But as you point out in your very next sentence, they very
conventionally blended tone colors into familiar combinations of
sonorities. 

   Yes, bassoons double cellos and basses and oboes and violins play
the same line in tuttis, but his rather goes to show how little regard
baroque composers had for the actual colors of the instruments:

I'd be inclined to disagree with this characterization of their regard,
but since it pretty much proves my point, there's a limit to how hard
I'll protest.  In his operas, Handel typically expected one treble sound
composed of oboe/violin, and a bass sound composed of
cello/bassoon/harpsichord/theorbo/violone.  He was obviously unconcerned
with whether the bassoons were heard as bassoons: he just wanted a good,
strong sound.

 If the part fits your register, play it for all I care.  

I'd be inclined to disagree with this characterization even more than I
was inclined to agree with the characterization above (with which was I
inclined to disagree, as noted above in the sentence that started I'd
be inclined to disagree...) but since it pretty much proves etc. ...

 If Bach didn't have an oboist on a particular day

[LUTE] Lute volume

[Stewart McCoy]

Cher Valéry,

No, it's not HIP to play with amplification, but if you want people to
hear what you are playing, there are times when amplification has its
uses. Better to be amplified than not heard at all.

Amitiés,

Stewart.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Sauvage Valéry
Sent: 19 October 2010 10:18
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume

Is it an HIP position to play with amplification ? Not sure it is
coherent
with what was said about gut strings...
If you want to search for the lost sound... gut strings, no amps. Same
conditions as yesteryears...
No ?
V ;-)

-Message d'origine-
De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la
part
de Peter Martin
Envoyé : mardi 19 octobre 2010 11:11
À : Lute list
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Lute volume

   Ah, amplification...

   I remember that David T and others made some recommendations a couple
   of years ago about contact mikes suitable for lutes.  Any fresh
   updates?
   I fear my lute and saxophone combo won't ever get started without a
   little electronic help.
   Peter
   On 19 October 2010 09:44, Stewart McCoy [1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk
wrote:

 Dear Howard,
 I think you are right to say that it is the overall sound which
 counts
 with an ensemble. When choosing voices for a choir, a conductor may
 choose not to invite a soloist with a strong, distinct voice,
 because it
 will stick out like a sore thumb. So it is with instruments. There
 has
 to be a balance, and it is up to the conductor (if there is one) to
 get
 it right.
 One of the strengths of the theorbo is that it enhances the other
 instruments of the group, as a catalyst may do in a mixing of
 chemicals.
 For example, it covers up mechanical clatter from a harpsichord,
 reinforcing the bass, and letting the audience hear the sweet,
 silvery
 tones of the harpsichord's treble notes. It is often the case that
 people in the audience do not recognise the sound of the theorbo in
 a
 group, because they are unfamiliar with it, but they would notice
 the
 difference if it wasn't there.
 There are times when a conductor may want the audience to hear the
 theorbo clearly, in which case he asks players of other continuo
 instruments to sit out.
 I sympathise with Chris's frustration at playing an instrument
which
 cannot be heard, or at least cannot easily be distinguished. That
is
 one
 reason why I gave up playing the double bass in orchestras years
ago
 -
 why bother turning up, if there are five other bass players playing
 the
 same notes? The trouble is, if everyone thought that, there would
be
 no
 orchestra.
 However, there are circumstances (playing background music while
 people
 talk, playing outside in the open air or in too big a room, playing
 alongside six trombones in a large, modern orchestra) when plucked
 instruments, particularly lutes, simply cannot be heard at all, and
 it
 is futile trying to thrash the instrument into audibility. If that
 is
 the case, there is little point playing without amplification. It
is
 sad
 if one is reduced to contributing only to the visual aspect of a
 performance, merely for the sake of the cheque afterwards.
 Best wishes,
 Stewart McCoy.
 -Original Message-
 From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of howard posner
 Sent: 19 October 2010 05:15
 To: Lute List
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute volume
 On Oct 18, 2010, at 6:12 PM, Christopher Wilke wrote:
  Howard,
 Huh?  Wait, that's me!
Alright, so next time I'll should ask people if they did not
 hear me
 as a discrete component, but rather as a subconsciously perceivable
 part
 of the composite tonal aggregate?
 Subconscious, no; part of the tonal aggregate, yes.  There's no
 reason
 to think the concept was any stranger in 1700 than it was in 1850
or
 is
 now.  Lots of instruments have the job of combining with other
 instruments to form a homogenized sound.  Listen to a Schumann
 symphony
 for an extreme example in its time.
 BTW, if the violinist sharing the stand with the concertmaster at
 your
 concert had asked someone in the audience Could you hear me? the
 answer would have been, Never.  I couldn't distinguish your sound
 from
 the other first violinists'.  The same is true of the organist in
 most
 ensembles, including rock bands, or the rhythm guitarist in a jazz
 big
 band (or lots of rock bands, for that matter).  The issue in these
 cases
 is not whether you can hear the instrument, but how much better the
 group sounds with it than without it.  35 years ago Rick Kemp

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Chords for the baroque lute

[Stewart McCoy]

Many thanks to everyone for their contributions to this thread. I have
forwarded all your replies to my friend who asked the question in the
first place, and he is most grateful. He has written to say that it is
just the sort of thing I was hoping for.

Best wishes,

Stewart.





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[LUTE] Francesco and flat back lute?

[Stewart McCoy]

The viola da mano which Alexander Batov made from a painting is a most
beautiful instrument. The sound is exceptionally good - ideal for music
by Francesco da Milano. You can see pictures at

http://www.vihuelademano.com/viola-da-mano/daiLibri.htm

There will be one of these violas at the Lute Society weekend in Oxford
in a couple of days' time, if anyone wants a closer look.

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Stuart Walsh
Sent: 17 August 2010 21:54
To: wikla
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco and flat back lute?

wikla wrote:
 Thanks Daniel and Edward,

 I know that only very few Spanish vihuelas exists today. Did any
Italian
 version manage to survive? And has any modern luthier tried to
recreate
 those Italian hand violas?

 Arto

   
Alexander Batov has.

http://www.vihuelademano.com/index.html


And here also:
http://www.anselmus.ch/fr/guitares/guitare_general.htm#signet_01

The violas with deeply incurved sides look very attractive I think.


Stuart





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[LUTE] Facsimiles

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Sean,

An interesting question. I would suggest these five for starters:

1) Robert Dowland, Varietie of Lute-Lessons (1610)
2) Board Lute Book
3) Dd.2.11
4) John Dowland, First Booke of Songes (1597)
5) Thomas Mace, Musick's Monument (1676)

Best wishes,

Stewart McCoy.

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Sean Smith
Sent: 10 August 2010 02:19
To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Facsimiles


Dear all,

Though this arises coincidentally from the Passereau question, it's  
actually been brewing in my head for some time. For a lute student of  
between 1-3 years what would you suggest are the 5 most important  
facsimiles to own? I was going to say have access to but I feel that  
any serious player should be starting their own libraries by this time.

I'll ask this from the point of view of a renaissance lutenist as well  
as the baroque players who will have their own lists. I'm not so  
interested in where they come from --I realize their availability  
comes and goes-- but from the student/player/historian aspect of  
learning the lute, its repertory and its place in history.

Yes, I know, 5 books is mighty limiting but feel free to add a second  
5 books if you need. As I see it every player has to start somewhere.  
Eventually I plan to tally the results and put a paragraph or 3 in an  
upcoming LSA Quarterly. And here.

Thanks in advance; I look forward to your replies!

Sean




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[LUTE] Facsimiles

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Mathias,

In choosing my five facsimiles I tried to look wider than just lute
solos. The lute involves other things too, hence my choice of Dowland's
First Booke of Songes, which I consider to be the most significant
collection of lute songs of all time. I think Mace's Musick's Monument
is important, not so much for his music, which is nice but not special,
but for what he has to say about the lute, the theorbo and the viol.

It is a pity not to have included any foreign sources, but I thought it
best to stick to French tablature. Otherwise the Capirola lute book
would be high on my list, along with Spinacino's two books (1507),
Casteliono's Intabolatura (1536), and Newsidler's Ein Newgeordnet
Künstlich Lautenbuch (1536). To make the list ten, I would add Besard's
Thesaurus Harmonicus (1603).

Best wishes,

Stewart.



-Original Message-
From: Mathias Rösel [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de] 
Sent: 10 August 2010 12:49
To: Stewart McCoy
Cc: Lute Net
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Facsimiles

Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk schrieb:
 An interesting question. I would suggest these five for starters:
..
 5) Thomas Mace, Musick's Monument (1676)

Mace? I mean, it's a marvelous book, I love it, and stuff, but for a
start? You can count on the fingers of one hand guys who play French
flat tuning in Mace's pitch (g' - e - c - a - e - B - A-G-F-E-D-C), I so
I sometimes guess when I feel lonely.

Mathias

 Dear all,
 
 Though this arises coincidentally from the Passereau question, it's  
 actually been brewing in my head for some time. For a lute student of

 between 1-3 years what would you suggest are the 5 most important  
 facsimiles to own? I was going to say have access to but I feel that

 any serious player should be starting their own libraries by this
time.
 
 I'll ask this from the point of view of a renaissance lutenist as well

 as the baroque players who will have their own lists. I'm not so  
 interested in where they come from --I realize their availability  
 comes and goes-- but from the student/player/historian aspect of  
 learning the lute, its repertory and its place in history.
 
 Yes, I know, 5 books is mighty limiting but feel free to add a second

 5 books if you need. As I see it every player has to start somewhere.

 Eventually I plan to tally the results and put a paragraph or 3 in an

 upcoming LSA Quarterly. And here.
 
 Thanks in advance; I look forward to your replies!
 
 Sean
 
 
 
 
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-- 
Viele Grüße

Mathias Rösel

http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com 
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