[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
You are missing the point. You are talking to the few hundred people on Earth who play old lute pieces... Imagine Average Joe of today with a score of a Beatles song. Yeah. On 05.06.20 18:23, G. C. wrote: So people on this list, are playing Renaissance and Baroque music because they have the records? H G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
uggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de > > >Angelin de > > >>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply > > speculation > > > >around > > >>>similar word association. > > >>>regards, > > >>>Martyn > > >>> > > >>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes > > >>><[2][4] rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > > mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > wrote: > > >>> While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they > > >surely > > >>play > > >>>and > > >>> sound like Bartolotti. > > >>> Is there any other theorbo player from that time that > > we > > >know > > >>of, who > > >>> could match the style and technique of these pieces? > > >>> r > > >>> Get [1]Outlook for Android > > >>> > > >> > > __ > > >>> From: [1][3][5] lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > >>> <[2][4][6] lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > mailto:lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > on behalf > > >of > > >>Monica Hall > > >>> <[3][5][7] mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > > >>> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM > > >>> To: [4][6][8] yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > ><[5][7][9] yuval.dvo...@posteo.de mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de >; > > >>LuteList > > >>> <[6][8][10] lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo > > >>> Thanks for this. > > >>> I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any > > reasons > > >for > > >>> thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. > > >>> Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library > > to > > >check > > >>any > > >>> other sources but if I do eventually find some > > evidence I > > >will > > >>let > > >>>you > > >>> know. > > >>> Cheers > > >>> Monica > > >>> > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9][11] > > yuval.dvo...@posteo.de mailto:yuval.dvo...@posteo.de > > >wrote: > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the > > >literature? > > >>There > > >>>is: > > >>> > > > >>> > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, > > but > > >he > > >>gives a > > >>> bunch > > >>> > of literature which I don't know) > > >>> > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, > > S. > > >>121-125 (he > > >>> > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo > > pieces, > > >but > > >>I > > >>> > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript > > there's a > > >piece > > >>by > > >>> > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as > > >>Bartolotti as > > >>> > well. And also there you'll find a lot of > > literature.) > > >>> > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: Ã ¢A. > > M. > >
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>>>>time to time. >>>>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de >>Angelin de >>>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation >>>around >>>>similar word association. >>>>regards, >>>>Martyn >>>> >>>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes >>>><[2][4] [13]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org mailto:[14]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > wrote: >>>> While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they >>surely >>>play >>>>and >>>> sound like Bartolotti. >>>> Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we >>know >>>of, who >>>> could match the style and technique of these pieces? >>>> r >>>> Get [1]Outlook for Android >>>> >>> __ >>>> From: [1][3][5] [15]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[16]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu >>>> <[2][4][6] [17]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[18]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > on behalf >>of >>>Monica Hall >>>> <[3][5][7] [19]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[20]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM >>>> To: [4][6][8] [21]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de mailto:[22]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de >><[5][7][9] [23]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de mailto:[24]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de >; >>>LuteList >>>> <[6][8][10] [25]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[26]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo >>>> Thanks for this. >>>> I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons >>for >>>> thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. >>>> Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to >>check >>>any >>>> other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I >>will >>>let >>>>you >>>> know. >>>> Cheers >>>> Monica >>>> > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9][11] [27]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de mailto:[28]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de >>wrote: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the >>literature? >>>There >>>>is: >>>> > >>>> > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but >>he >>>gives a >>>> bunch >>>> > of literature which I don't know) >>>> > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. >>>121-125 (he >>>> > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, >>but >>>I >>>> > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a >>piece >>>by >>>> > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as >>>Bartolotti as >>>> > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) >>>> > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: à ¢A. M. >>>Bartolotti, >>>> Pià ¨ces >>>> > pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth &g
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
So people on this list, are playing Renaissance and Baroque music because they have the records? H G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
If we didn't have recordings, people would have to play them on instruments... I think many of those songs would have disappeared already... On 05.06.20 18:03, G. C. wrote: What are 80 years? We are still enjoying playing and listening to Beatles and Stones music, near 60 years old. And even older Jazz music. Why would people in the 17th century have been any different? G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
What are 80 years? We are still enjoying playing and listening to Beatles and Stones music, near 60 years old. And even older Jazz music. Why would people in the 17th century have been any different? G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
gt;>email messages? > >That's a consequent of how this list is set up. Reply-to-all will > send > >copies > >to the list as well as the original poster(s). > >Cheers, RalfD > >>On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall > >><[2] mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > mailto:mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > >>For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is > >dated > >>1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was > >printed - > >>so born 1620 or earlier. > >>He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrà > >©tariat de > >>la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682 > >>recording that the possessions of a certain Italian > "Miquelange" > >were > >>assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y > >servant > >>depuis neuf ans". > >>Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time > >>previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine > the > >>possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property > >of the > >>King to dispose of as he saw fit. There are no references to > >>Bartolotti after that date. > >>Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could > have > >been > >>copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. > It > >does > >>not have to have been copied during their life times. > >>It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo > >Michel in > >>all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a > >very > >>common name so open to question... > >>We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in > the > >>manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are > >concordant > >>with those in the Goess ms. > >>Cheers > >>MOnica > >>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson > >><[1][3] hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > mailto:hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>Dear Roland, > >>>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but > c.1630 > >- > >>1682 > >>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for > lute > >by > >>Losy > >>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms > >>suggests a > >>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation. > >>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for > >>continuo in > >>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few > >pieces > >>for > >>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as > >well > >>as > >>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in > >collections > >>from > >>>time to time. > >>>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de > >Angelin de > >>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply > speculation > >>around > >>>similar word association. > >>>regards, > >>>Martyn > >>> > >>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes > >>><[2][4] rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > mailto:rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org > wrote: > >>> While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they > >surely > > >play > >>>and > >>> sound like Bartolotti. > >>> Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we > >k
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 12:27 CEST, Monica Hall schrieb: > To be honest I don't think it is the usual classic scholarly course to > attempt to date a source by its contents and style. Someone on an earlier > occasion on the list commented That's what I just wanted to reply as well. > "As a musicologist student, I learned that style criticism should be > avoided because it cannot be valid evidence”. Same here - because it leads to the circular reinforcement I mentioned in my first post. > Music continued to be popular and played after it was first composed. Some of > Corbetta's music is found in sources copied 50 years after his death. > > The only way to date a manuscript with any sort of accuracy is from its > bibliographical makeup and even that is not straight forward. Indeed! Cheers, RalfD -- Ralf Mattes Hochschule für Musik Freiburg Projektleitung HISinOne Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg http://www.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
y and Gintler could have >been >>copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It >does >>not have to have been copied during their life times. >>It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo >Michel in >>all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a >very >>common name so open to question... >>We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the >>manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are >concordant >>with those in the Goess ms. >>Cheers >>MOnica >>> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson >><[1][3][5]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >>> >>> >>>Dear Roland, >>>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 >- >>1682 >>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute >by >>Losy >>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms >>suggests a >>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation. >>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for >>continuo in >>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few >pieces >>for >>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as >well >>as >>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in >collections >>from >>>time to time. >>>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de >Angelin de >>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation >>around >>>similar word association. >>>regards, >>>Martyn >>> >>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes >>><[2][4][6]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: >>> While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they >surely >>play >>>and >>> sound like Bartolotti. >>> Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we >know >>of, who >> > could match the style and technique of these pieces? >>> r >>> Get [1]Outlook for Android >>> >> __ >>> From: [1][3][5][7]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu >>> <[2][4][6][8]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf >of >>Monica Hall >>> <[3][5][7][9]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM >>> To: [4][6][8][10]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de ><[5][7][9][11]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; >>LuteList >>> <[6][8][10][12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo >>> Thanks for this. >>> I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons >for >>> thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. >>> Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to >check >>any >>> other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I >will >>let >>>you >>> know. >>> Cheers >>> Monica >>> > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9][11][13]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de >wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the >literature? >>There >>>is: >>> > >>> > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but >he >>gives a >>> bunch >>
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
1682 >>>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute >by >>Losy >>>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms >>suggests a >>>date around 1680/90 for its compilation. >>>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for >>continuo in >>>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few >pieces >>for >>>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as >well >>as >>>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in >collections >>from >>>time to time. >>>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de >Angelin de >>>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation >>around >>>similar word association. >>>regards, >>>Martyn >>> >>>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes >>><[2][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: >>> While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they >surely >>play >>>and >>> sound like Bartolotti. >>> Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we >know > >of, who >>> could match the style and technique of these pieces? >>> r >>> Get [1]Outlook for Android >>> >>__ >>> From: [1][3][5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu >>> <[2][4][6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf >of >>Monica Hall >>> <[3][5][7]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM >>> To: [4][6][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de ><[5][7][9]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; >>LuteList >>> <[6][8][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo >>> Thanks for this. >>> I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons >for >>> thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. >>> Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to >check >>any >>> other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I >will >>let >>>you >>> know. >>> Cheers >>> Monica >>> > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9][11]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de >wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the >literature? >>There >>>is: >>> > >>> > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but >he >>gives a >>> bunch >>> > of literature which I don't know) >>> > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. >>121-125 (he >>> > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, >but >>I >>> > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a >piece >>by >>> > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as >>Bartolotti as >>> > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) >>> > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: à ¢A. M. >>Bartolotti, >>> Pià ¨ces >>> > pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth >to >>check! >>> > >>> > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what >you're >>going >>> to >>> > find on this subject :-) >>> > Yuval >>> > >>> > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: >>> > > Thanks Martyn >>> > > That's very helpful.
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
;[2][4]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: >> While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely >play >>and >> sound like Bartolotti. >> Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know >of, who >> could match the style and technique of these pieces? >> r >> Get [1]Outlook for Android >> >__ >> From: [1][3][5]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > <[2][4][6]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of >Monica Hall >> <[3][5][7]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM >> To: [4][6][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][7][9]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; >LuteList >> <[6][8][10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo >> Thanks for this. >> I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for >> thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. >> Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check >any >> other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will >let >>you >> know. >> Cheers >> Monica >> > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9][11]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: >> > >> > >> > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? >There >>is: >> > >> > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he >gives a >> bunch >> > of literature which I don't know) >> > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. >121-125 (he >> > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but >I >> > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece >by >> > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as >Bartolotti as >> > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) >> > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: à ¢A. M. >Bartolotti, >> Pià ¨ces >> > pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to >check! >> > >> > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're >going >> to >> > find on this subject :-) >> > Yuval >> > >> > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: >> > > Thanks Martyn >> > > That's very helpful. >> > > Regards >> > > Monica >> > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson >> > >> <[8][10][12]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>Dear Monica, >> > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for >attributing >>the >> > >> other >> > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of >course, >> being >> > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of >the >> > >> Allemande >> > >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r. >> > >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v >> (reversed >> > >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, >as >> does >> > >> the >> > >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be >happy to >> accept >> > >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The >fact >> that >> > >> the >> > >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not >have >>t
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 10:34 CEST, Martyn Hodgson schrieb: >Dear Monica, >Indeed - the Ms may have been copied later than the 1680/90s I >suggest. But bear in mind that most of the lute works are from the >earlier generation such as Pinel (d. 1661) Strobel (d.1669), Hotman >(also a tiorba player d.1663), Dufault (d. 1672), Gautier d'Angleterre >(d. 1652) et al, who were no longer particularly fashionable by the >late seventeenth/early eighteenth century. That's a classic case of circular reasoning. -> The music wasn't fashionable because it isn't contained in MS. from that time. -> That Ms. can't be from that time because it contains unfashionable music . >So it seems reasonable to me >that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the compilation of the Ms is a >decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for example I know >nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc. >regards >Martyn >PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple copies of these >email messages? That's a consequent of how this list is set up. Reply-to-all will send copies to the list as well as the original poster(s). Cheers, RalfD >On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: >For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is dated >1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was printed - >so born 1620 or earlier. >He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrétariat de >la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682 >recording that the possessions of a certain Italian "Miquelange" were >assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y servant >depuis neuf ans". >Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time >previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine the >possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property of the >King to dispose of as he saw fit. There are no references to >Bartolotti after that date. >Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have been >copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It does >not have to have been copied during their life times. >It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo Michel in >all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a very >common name so open to question... >We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the >manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are concordant >with those in the Goess ms. >Cheers >MOnica >> On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson ><[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> >> >>Dear Roland, >>Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - >1682 >>may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by >Losy >>(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms >suggests a >>date around 1680/90 for its compilation. >>The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for >continuo in >>this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces >for >>solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well >as >>famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections >from >>time to time. >>Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de >>Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation >around >>similar word association. >>regards, >>Martyn >> >>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes >><[2]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: >> While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely >play >>and >> sound like Bartolotti. >> Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know >of, who >> could match the style and technique of these pieces? >> r >> Get [1]Outlook for Android >> >__ >> From: [1][3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > > <[2][4]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of >Monica Hall >> <[3][5]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM >> To: [4][6]yuval.dvo...@
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Am Freitag, 05. Juni 2020 10:16 CEST, Martyn Hodgson schrieb: [...] >Note the tiorba works are copied from the last leaf of the book going >forwards No - the book was started with the theorbo pieces and then someone continued with the baroque pieces from the end of the book ... (I'm actually only partially joking, the binding is, from all I can tell, pretty symetric) Cheers, RalfD > >On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:58:49 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: >I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of this >particular ms. only the Goess ms. >Monica >> On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com" ><[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: >> >>It would be very interesting to see what this music looks like. >Are there any images online? >> >>Sent from my Huawei phone >> >> >> Original message >>From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >>Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21 >>To: [5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList ><[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Monica Hall <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, >Roland Hayes <[8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> >>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo >> >>?space?-- Dear Roland, > Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682 > may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy > (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a > date around 1680/90 for its compilation. > The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo >in > this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for > solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as > famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections >from > time to time. > Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de > Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around > similar word association. > regards, > Martyn > On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes > <[9]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: >While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play > and >sound like Bartolotti. >Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, >who >could match the style and technique of these pieces? >r >Get [1]Outlook for Android > >__ >From: [1][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu ><[2][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica >Hall > <[3][12]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM >To: [4][13]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][14]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; >LuteList ><[6][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo >Thanks for this. >I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for >thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. >Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any >other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let > you >know. >Cheers >Monica >> On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][16]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: >> >> >> Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There > is: >> >> Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives >a >bunch >> of literature which I don't know) >> Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 >(he >> doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I >> apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by >> "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti >as >> well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) >> And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. >Bartolotti, >Pià ¨ces >> pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! >> >> Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're >going >to >> find on this subject :-) >> Yuval >> >> Am 0
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Dear Monica, Indeed - the Ms may have been copied later than the 1680/90s I suggest. But bear in mind that most of the lute works are from the earlier generation such as Pinel (d. 1661) Strobel (d.1669), Hotman (also a tiorba player d.1663), Dufault (d. 1672), Gautier d'Angleterre (d. 1652) et al, who were no longer particularly fashionable by the late seventeenth/early eighteenth century. So it seems reasonable to me that a terminal date around 1680/90 for the compilation of the Ms is a decent guess. But others are certainly possible - for example I know nothing of the dating of the paper, watermarks etc. regards Martyn PS Incidentally, are other people receiving multiple copies of these email messages? On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:57:47 BST, Monica Hall wrote: For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is dated 1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was printed - so born 1620 or earlier. He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682 recording that the possessions of a certain Italian "Miquelange" were assigned to one "Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y servant depuis neuf ans". Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time previously. Under the French law known as the droit d'aubaine the possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property of the King to dispose of as he saw fit. There are no references to Bartolotti after that date. Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have been copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It does not have to have been copied during their life times. It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo Michel in all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a very common name so open to question... We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are concordant with those in the Goess ms. Cheers MOnica > On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > >Dear Roland, >Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682 >may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy >(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a >date around 1680/90 for its compilation. >The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in >this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for >solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as >famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from >time to time. >Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de >Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around >similar word association. >regards, >Martyn > >On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes ><[2]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: > While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play >and > sound like Bartolotti. > Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who > could match the style and technique of these pieces? > r > Get [1]Outlook for Android > __ > From: [1][3]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[2][4]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall > <[3][5]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM > To: [4][6]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList > <[6][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo > Thanks for this. > I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for > thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. > Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any > other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let >you > know. > Cheers > Monica > > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][9]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: > > > > > > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There >is: > > > > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather use
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Many thanks!! Monica > On 05 June 2020 at 09:16 Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > > >see here >[1]A-Wn MusHs 17706 > > [scribd.png] > > A-Wn MusHs 17706 > >Note the tiorba works are copied from the last leaf of the book going >forwards >M > >On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:58:49 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: >I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of this >particular ms. only the Goess ms. >Monica >> On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com" ><[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: >> >>It would be very interesting to see what this music looks like. >Are there any images online? >> >>Sent from my Huawei phone >> >> >> Original message >>From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >>Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21 >>To: [5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList ><[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Monica Hall <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, >Roland Hayes <[8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> >>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo >> >>?space?-- Dear Roland, > Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682 > may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy > (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a > date around 1680/90 for its compilation. > The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo >in > this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for > solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as > famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections >from > time to time. > Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de > Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around > similar word association. > regards, > Martyn > On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes > <[9]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: >While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play > and >sound like Bartolotti. >Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, >who >could match the style and technique of these pieces? >r >Get [1]Outlook for Android > >__ >From: [1][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu ><[2][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica >Hall ><[3][12]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM >To: [4][13]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][14]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; >LuteList ><[6][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo >Thanks for this. >I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for >thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. >Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any >other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let > you >know. >Cheers >Monica >> On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][16]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: >> >> >> Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There > is: >> >> Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives >a >bunch >> of literature which I don't know) >> Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 >(he >> doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I >> apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by >> "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti >as >> well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) >> And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. >Bartolotti, >Pià ¨ces >> pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! >> >> Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're >going >to >> find on this subject :-) >> Yuval >> >> Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: >&g
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Just follow the link given in the database
([1]https://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?id=1=ms=A-Wn17706=A
=deu=all)
Peter
Mail priva di virus. [2]www.avg.com
Il giorno ven 5 giu 2020 alle ore 10:20 Martyn Hodgson
<[3]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> ha scritto:
see here
[1]A-Wn MusHs 17706
[scribd.png]
A-Wn MusHs 17706
Note the tiorba works are copied from the last leaf of the book
going
forwards
M
On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:58:49 BST, Monica Hall
<[4]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of
this
particular ms. only the Goess ms.
Monica
> On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "[2][5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com"
<[3][6]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> It would be very interesting to see what this music looks
like.
Are there any images online?
>
> Sent from my Huawei phone
>
>
> Original message
> From: Martyn Hodgson
<[4][7]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21
> To: [5][8]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList
<[6][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Monica Hall
<[7][10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>,
Roland Hayes <[8][11]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org>
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>
> ?space?-- Dear Roland,
Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 -
1682
may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute
by Losy
(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms
suggests a
date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for
continuo
in
this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few
pieces for
solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as
well as
famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in
collections
from
time to time.
Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin
de
Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation
around
similar word association.
regards,
Martyn
On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
<[9][12]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote:
While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they
surely play
and
sound like Bartolotti.
Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know
of,
who
could match the style and technique of these pieces?
r
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: [1][10][13]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[2][11][14]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf
of Monica
Hall
<[3][12][15]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
To: [4][13][16]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
<[5][14][17]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>;
LuteList
<[6][15][18]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Thanks for this.
I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons
for
thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to
check any
other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I
will let
you
know.
Cheers
Monica
> On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][16][19]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
wrote:
>
>
> Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature?
There
is:
>
> Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he
gives
a
bunch
> of literature which I don't know)
> Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S.
121-125
(he
> doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces,
but I
> apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a
piece by
> "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as
Bartolotti
as
> well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
> And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: à ¢A. M.
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
see here [1]A-Wn MusHs 17706 [scribd.png] A-Wn MusHs 17706 Note the tiorba works are copied from the last leaf of the book going forwards M On Friday, 5 June 2020, 08:58:49 BST, Monica Hall wrote: I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of this particular ms. only the Goess ms. Monica > On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "[2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com" <[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > >It would be very interesting to see what this music looks like. Are there any images online? > >Sent from my Huawei phone > > > Original message >From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> >Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21 >To: [5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Monica Hall <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>, Roland Hayes <[8]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo > >?space?-- Dear Roland, Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682 may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a date around 1680/90 for its compilation. The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from time to time. Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around similar word association. regards, Martyn On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes <[9]rha...@legalaidbuffalo.org> wrote: While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play and sound like Bartolotti. Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who could match the style and technique of these pieces? r Get [1]Outlook for Android __ From: [1][10]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[2][11]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall <[3][12]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM To: [4][13]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5][14]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList <[6][15]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo Thanks for this. I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let you know. Cheers Monica > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7][16]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: > > > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There is: > > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a bunch > of literature which I don't know) > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti, Pià ¨ces > pour thà ©orbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! > > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going to > find on this subject :-) > Yuval > > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: > > Thanks Martyn > > That's very helpful. > > Regards > > Monica > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson > >> <[8][17]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >> > >> > >>Dear Monica, > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the > >> other > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Inci
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
I was wondering about that as I don't actually have a copy of this particular
ms. only the Goess ms.
Monica
> On 05 June 2020 at 08:45 "s.wa...@ntlworld.com" wrote:
>
> It would be very interesting to see what this music looks like. Are there
> any images online?
>
> Sent from my Huawei phone
>
>
> Original message
> From: Martyn Hodgson
> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020, 08:21
> To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de, LuteList , Monica Hall
> , Roland Hayes
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
>
> ?space?-- Dear Roland,
Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682
may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy
(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a
date around 1680/90 for its compilation.
The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in
this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for
solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as
famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from
time to time.
Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de
Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around
similar word association.
regards,
Martyn
On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes
wrote:
While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play
and
sound like Bartolotti.
Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who
could match the style and technique of these pieces?
r
Get [1]Outlook for Android
__
From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall
<[3]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM
To: [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList
<[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Thanks for this.
I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for
thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti.
Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any
other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let
you
know.
Cheers
Monica
> On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote:
>
>
> Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There
is:
>
> Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a
bunch
> of literature which I don't know)
> Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he
> doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I
> apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by
> "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as
> well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.)
> And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti,
Pièces
> pour théorbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check!
>
> Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going
to
> find on this subject :-)
> Yuval
>
> Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall:
> > Thanks Martyn
> > That's very helpful.
> > Regards
> > Monica
> >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson
> >> <[8]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>Dear Monica,
> >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing
the
> >> other
> >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course,
being
> >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the
> >> Allemande
> >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r.
> >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v
(reversed
> >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as
does
> >> the
> >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to
accept
> >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The fact
that
> >> the
> >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have
the
> >>attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but
> >>regards,
> >>Martyn
> &g
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
For the record Bartolotti's Libro primo de chitarra Spagnola is dated 1640. He must have at least been in his twenties when it was printed - so born 1620 or earlier. He died before January 1682. In the record books of the Secrétariat de la Maison du Roi (Louis XIV) there is an entry in January, 1682 recording that the possessions of a certain Italian “Miquelange” were assigned to one “Launay, Garde de la Compagnie de Luxemburg, y servant depuis neuf ans”. Assuming that this was Bartolotti, he must have died some time previously. Under the French law known as the droit d’aubaine the possessions of foreigners who died in France became the property of the King to dispose of as he saw fit. There are no references to Bartolotti after that date. Having said that his music and that of Losy and Gintler could have been copied any time in the late 17th century or early 18th century. It does not have to have been copied during their life times. It seems to be assumed that any reference to the name Angelo Michel in all its different permutations refers to Bartolotti but it was a very common name so open to question... We are still no nearer to knowing whether the other pieces in the manuscript are by our man. I assume that none of them are concordant with those in the Goess ms. Cheers MOnica > On 05 June 2020 at 08:21 Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > > >Dear Roland, >Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682 >may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy >(b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a >date around 1680/90 for its compilation. >The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in >this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for >solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as >famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from >time to time. >Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de >Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around >similar word association. >regards, >Martyn > >On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes > wrote: > While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play >and > sound like Bartolotti. > Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who > could match the style and technique of these pieces? > r > Get [1]Outlook for Android >__ > From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu > <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall > <[3]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM > To: [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList > <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo > Thanks for this. > I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for > thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. > Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any > other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let >you > know. > Cheers > Monica > > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: > > > > > > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There >is: > > > > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a > bunch > > of literature which I don't know) > > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he > > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I > > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by > > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as > > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) > > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti, > Pièces > > pour théorbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! > > > > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going > to > > find on this subject :-) > > Yuval > > > > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: > > > Thanks Martyn > > > That's very helpful. > > > Regards > > > Monica > > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson > > >> <[8]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: &
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Dear Roland, Bartolotti's precise dates seem unknown at present but c.1630 - 1682 may be a reasonable estimate. The inclusion of works for lute by Losy (b.1650) and Ginter(b.1661) in the earlier part of this Ms suggests a date around 1680/90 for its compilation. The tiorba was, of course, a widely employed instrument for continuo in this period and, in my view, it's unsurprising that a few pieces for solo instruments by various unidentified tiorba players, as well as famed players such as Bartolotti, shouldn't turn up in collections from time to time. Petyer Steur suggests the lute piece on f.26v (Gigue de Angelin de Rome) is by A M Bartolotii but this may be simply speculation around similar word association. regards, Martyn On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 20:53:14 BST, Roland Hayes wrote: While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play and sound like Bartolotti. Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who could match the style and technique of these pieces? r Get [1]Outlook for Android __ From: [1]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu <[2]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Monica Hall <[3]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM To: [4]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de <[5]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de>; LuteList <[6]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo Thanks for this. I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let you know. Cheers Monica > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 [7]yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: > > > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There is: > > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a bunch > of literature which I don't know) > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti, Pièces > pour théorbe", Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! > > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going to > find on this subject :-) > Yuval > > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: > > Thanks Martyn > > That's very helpful. > > Regards > > Monica > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson > >> <[8]hodgsonmar...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >> > >> > >>Dear Monica, > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the > >> other > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the > >> Allemande > >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r. > >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed > >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does > >> the > >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept > >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The fact that > >> the > >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the > >>attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but > >>regards, > >>Martyn > >> > >>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall > >><[9]mjlh...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >>Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 > >> pieces > >>for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on > >> f.92r is > >>attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the > >>other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti? > >>Thanks > >>Monica > >>-
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
While the unascribed pieces could by someone else, they surely play and sound like Bartolotti. Is there any other theorbo player from that time that we know of, who could match the style and technique of these pieces? r Get [1]Outlook for Android __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, June 4, 2020 3:10:50 PM To: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de ; LuteList Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo Thanks for this. I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let you know. Cheers Monica > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: > > > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There is: > > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a bunch > of literature which I don't know) > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: âA. M. Bartolotti, Pièces > pour théorbeâ, Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! > > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going to > find on this subject :-) > Yuval > > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: > > Thanks Martyn > > That's very helpful. > > Regards > > Monica > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>Dear Monica, > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the > >> other > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the > >> Allemande > >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r. > >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed > >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does > >> the > >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept > >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The fact that > >> the > >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the > >>attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but > >>regards, > >>Martyn > >> > >>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall > >> wrote: > >>Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 > >> pieces > >>for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on > >> f.92r is > >>attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the > >>other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti? > >>Thanks > >>Monica > >>-- > >>To get on or off this list see list information at > >>[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >>-- > >> > >> References > >> > >>1. [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> This message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and return the original message to us at i...@legalaidbuffalo.org -- References 1. https://aka.ms/ghei36 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Thanks for this. I have the Moscardi edition but he doesn't give any reasons for thinking the pieces are by Bartolotti. Unfortunately with lockdown I can't visit the library to check any other sources but if I do eventually find some evidence I will let you know. Cheers Monica > On 04 June 2020 at 17:03 yuval.dvo...@posteo.de wrote: > > > Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There is: > > Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a bunch > of literature which I don't know) > Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he > doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I > apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by > "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as > well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) > And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: „A. M. Bartolotti, Pièces > pour théorbe“, Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! > > Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going to > find on this subject :-) > Yuval > > Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: > > Thanks Martyn > > That's very helpful. > > Regards > > Monica > >> On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>Dear Monica, > >>No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the > >> other > >>tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being > >>adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the > >> Allemande > >>(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r. > >>The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed > >>folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does > >> the > >>concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept > >>these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The fact that > >> the > >>earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the > >>attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but > >>regards, > >>Martyn > >> > >>On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall > >> wrote: > >>Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 > >> pieces > >>for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on > >> f.92r is > >>attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the > >>other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti? > >>Thanks > >>Monica > >>-- > >>To get on or off this list see list information at > >>[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >> > >>-- > >> > >> References > >> > >>1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >>
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Maybe it's worth to take a look on some of the literature? There is: Boetticher: RISM B VII, p. 351-352 (rather useless, but he gives a bunch of literature which I don't know) Meyer (ed.): Sources Manuscrites en Tablature III/1, S. 121-125 (he doesn't give any information on the other theorbo pieces, but I apparently in the lute part of the mansucript there's a piece by "Angelin de Rome" which Meyer supposed to identify as Bartolotti as well. And also there you'll find a lot of literature.) And there's a new edition by Massimo Moscardo: „A. M. Bartolotti, Pièces pour théorbe“, Paris (SFL) 1995, which could be worth to check! Please keep us informed, in fact I'm very curious what you're going to find on this subject :-) Yuval Am 04.06.2020 17:45 schrieb Monica Hall: Thanks Martyn That's very helpful. Regards Monica On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Monica, No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the other tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the Allemande (Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r. The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does the concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The fact that the earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but regards, Martyn On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall wrote: Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 pieces for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on f.92r is attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti? Thanks Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Thanks Martyn That's very helpful. Regards Monica > On 04 June 2020 at 14:35 Martyn Hodgson > wrote: > > >Dear Monica, >No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the other >tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being >adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the Allemande >(Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r. >The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed >folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does the >concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept >these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The fact that the >earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the >attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but >regards, >Martyn > >On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: >Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 pieces >for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on f.92r is >attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the >other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti? >Thanks >Monica >-- >To get on or off this list see list information at >[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti music for theorbo
Dear Monica, No - I don't know if there are any grounds for attributing the other tiorba pieces in this Ms to Bartolotti other than, of course, being adjacent in the same Ms. Incidentally the attribution of the Allemande (Allemanda di Angelo Michiele) is on f.89r. not 92r. The following Corrente with a variatione on 88r to 87v (reversed folios) seems stylistically very close to the Allemanda, as does the concluding Sarabanda with its variatione, so I'd be happy to accept these as part of a suite by the same composer AM. The fact that the earlier Ms pieces for tiorba (ie from 92 to 89) do not have the attribution to AM might suggest they're not by him, but regards, Martyn On Thursday, 4 June 2020, 09:56:59 BST, Monica Hall wrote: Ms. 17706 in the Austrian National Library in Vienna includes 10 pieces for theorbo usually attributed to Bartolotti. The Allemanda on f.92r is attributed to Angelo Michiele. Does anyone know on what grounds the other nine pieces are attributed to Bartolotti? Thanks Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
