[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
We all know that wooden frets have largely been an optional extra on
lutes- indeed, I had none on my 6-course for years, no problem at all
going above the gut frets for melodic runs in Francesco, Milan,
Dal'Aquila, et al. In fact, provides a nice, different "3rd Register" of
sound in addition to unison & 8ve stringed fretted sound.
But it takes a far better lutenist than I will ever be in my wildest
dreams to play the 3, 4, 5, and even 6 note chords- including full bar
chords- that occur almost routinely, spanning 7th to 10th, even 11th &
12th semitones- that Melchior Neusidler puts in all his Fantasias &
Intabulations. Try the "Susanne Ung Jour" by Orlandus Lassus that he
intabbed in his "Libro Secundo" in Italian Tab. without 12 good frets.
Dan
On 10/31/2013 5:15 AM, William Samson wrote:
Funny thing - Although body frets were not unknown back in the day,
there's very little evidence of them actually being in general use.
Few surviving instruments show signs of ever having had them and they
are equally rare in the iconography. I wonder if the players back then
weren't as bothered as we are about sustain and they must have been
pretty good at planting their LH finger in just the right spot.
Bill
From: Dan Winheld
To:
Cc: lute
Sent: Wednesday, 30 October 2013, 18:24
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
Thanks all for the great replies. Lilac? That is the most intriguing of
all. Holly and bamboo sound like good candidates also.
Sterling- thanks for reminding me of those amazing frets! I must have
seen them at Cleveland some time ago. A top professional guitar builder
in my neighborhood recommends bone over ivory for strength &
durability- I am considering letting him do my body frets this time
around.
Dan
On 10/30/2013 9:23 AM, Eric Hansen wrote:
>A few years ago I was visiting luthier Joel Van Lennep, who showed
me
>his favorite material for fixed (body) frets: lilac. He said he
>preferred it because it's very hard, and yet still flexible.
>
>
>
>Best to all,
>
>Eric
>
>On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Sterling
<[1][1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
> I have body frets on one lute made of an ivory-ebony sandwich
and
> they sound great up to the 14th fret. Cutting ivory is not easy
> though as it tends to shatter. Another lute I have has
> holly-ebony-holly frets. I like these flashy frets, but my
friend
> Bob Hieronimus hates them and prefers that the body frets are
almost
> invisible.
> Sterling
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Dan Winheld <[2][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>
wrote:
>> Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best
material
>for body frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that
dances
>around in the lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra,
Milan's
>advanced fantasias, etc. The plain wooden frets I have now-
probably
>Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound pretty terrible compared to the gut
frets.
>I am thinking Ebony, some other dense tropical hardwood, bone, or
even
>some modern synthetic- but only if aesthetically acceptable &
sonically
>superior. If anyone knows of some magic non-metallic body fret
material
>I would really like to know.
>>
>> Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results
from a
>squared off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them
down for
>proper clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be
crowned- or
>at least rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even
>before installation for the non-luthier DIY amateur.
>>
>> Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>--
>Eric Hansen
>Librarian & lutenist --
>
> References
>
>1. mailto:[4]spiffys84...@yahoo.com
>2. mailto:[5]dwinh...@lmi.net
>3. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com
2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
4. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com
5. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
A good point, Bill, and I don't think I've seen any body frets (old or new lutes) with body frets for the bass notes. There are pieces that do, however, call for an 'l' on the 6th course. ...usually that dreaded F chord w/ that passing tone up from the 'h' on the 6th course. If my strings are a shade wonky then I appreciate some wiggle room. Last year my 12th popped off and a neglected to fix it for a while. It was an interesting challange to use my ears to find the 'n' rather than simply go 'plink' w/ the little finger. I eventually fixed it and now just curl my lip DCheney-style at the note I get. Unless your string intonation is perfect, a fixed fret is counterproductive. On the other hand, why would some players prefer 10 frets on the neck over 8 or 9? If they had constant access to quality strings then a wooden fretted high notes make more sense. If you don't --the more likely scenerio-- that gut 10th fret is perfectly useful for adjusting the intonation up there. Plus you get more neck to play on, of course. And that 10th fret (in the bass, anyway) is nearly always a root -- never(?) a 3rd or 6th-- and for that you want it to be pretty true, arguing for either a good quality string or the ability to stop it precisely. Relatedly, the metal string tech apparently produced a more regular string (and the scalloped frets less intonational interference) so those citterns and orphariae could take advantage of all those 'p's and 'q's. I've had the pleasure here in the SF bay area to hear some very nice mean-toned, wire strung instruments: one being a fanned fret orpharion as well as some good citterns (diatonic and chromatic) and it's amazing how much more in tune they can be 'up the neck'. Sean On Oct 31, 2013, at 5:15 AM, William Samson wrote: Funny thing - Although body frets were not unknown back in the day, there's very little evidence of them actually being in general use. Few surviving instruments show signs of ever having had them and they are equally rare in the iconography. I wonder if the players back then weren't as bothered as we are about sustain and they must have been pretty good at planting their LH finger in just the right spot. Bill From: Dan Winheld To: Cc: lute Sent: Wednesday, 30 October 2013, 18:24 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best body fret material? Thanks all for the great replies. Lilac? That is the most intriguing of all. Holly and bamboo sound like good candidates also. Sterling- thanks for reminding me of those amazing frets! I must have seen them at Cleveland some time ago. A top professional guitar builder in my neighborhood recommends bone over ivory for strength & durability- I am considering letting him do my body frets this time around. Dan On 10/30/2013 9:23 AM, Eric Hansen wrote: A few years ago I was visiting luthier Joel Van Lennep, who showed me his favorite material for fixed (body) frets: lilac. He said he preferred it because it's very hard, and yet still flexible. Best to all, Eric On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Sterling <[1][1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> wrote: I have body frets on one lute made of an ivory-ebony sandwich and they sound great up to the 14th fret. Cutting ivory is not easy though as it tends to shatter. Another lute I have has holly-ebony-holly frets. I like these flashy frets, but my friend Bob Hieronimus hates them and prefers that the body frets are almost invisible. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Dan Winheld <[2][2]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material for body frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances around in the lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's advanced fantasias, etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. I am thinking Ebony, some other dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even some modern synthetic- but only if aesthetically acceptable & sonically superior. If anyone knows of some magic non-metallic body fret material I would really like to know. Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a squared off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for proper clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or at least rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even before installation for the non-luthier DIY amateur. Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Eric Hansen Librarian & lutenist -- References 1. m
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
Funny thing - Although body frets were not unknown back in the day, there's very little evidence of them actually being in general use. Few surviving instruments show signs of ever having had them and they are equally rare in the iconography. I wonder if the players back then weren't as bothered as we are about sustain and they must have been pretty good at planting their LH finger in just the right spot. Bill From: Dan Winheld To: Cc: lute Sent: Wednesday, 30 October 2013, 18:24 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best body fret material? Thanks all for the great replies. Lilac? That is the most intriguing of all. Holly and bamboo sound like good candidates also. Sterling- thanks for reminding me of those amazing frets! I must have seen them at Cleveland some time ago. A top professional guitar builder in my neighborhood recommends bone over ivory for strength & durability- I am considering letting him do my body frets this time around. Dan On 10/30/2013 9:23 AM, Eric Hansen wrote: >A few years ago I was visiting luthier Joel Van Lennep, who showed me >his favorite material for fixed (body) frets: lilac. He said he >preferred it because it's very hard, and yet still flexible. > > > >Best to all, > >Eric > >On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Sterling <[1][1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> >wrote: > > I have body frets on one lute made of an ivory-ebony sandwich and > they sound great up to the 14th fret. Cutting ivory is not easy > though as it tends to shatter. Another lute I have has > holly-ebony-holly frets. I like these flashy frets, but my friend > Bob Hieronimus hates them and prefers that the body frets are almost > invisible. > Sterling > Sent from my iPhone > >On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Dan Winheld <[2][2]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: >> Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material >for body frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances >around in the lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's >advanced fantasias, etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably >Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. >I am thinking Ebony, some other dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even >some modern synthetic- but only if aesthetically acceptable & sonically >superior. If anyone knows of some magic non-metallic body fret material >I would really like to know. >> >> Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a >squared off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for >proper clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or >at least rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even >before installation for the non-luthier DIY amateur. >> >> Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. >> >> Dan >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- >Eric Hansen >Librarian & lutenist -- > > References > >1. mailto:[4]spiffys84...@yahoo.com >2. mailto:[5]dwinh...@lmi.net >3. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 5. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
Rock Maple, used primarily for the bridges of bowed instruments, would work nicely. It's very very hard, and very light in color. Chris -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Winheld Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:24 PM Cc: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Best body fret material? Thanks all for the great replies. Lilac? That is the most intriguing of all. Holly and bamboo sound like good candidates also. Sterling- thanks for reminding me of those amazing frets! I must have seen them at Cleveland some time ago. A top professional guitar builder in my neighborhood recommends bone over ivory for strength & durability- I am considering letting him do my body frets this time around. Dan On 10/30/2013 9:23 AM, Eric Hansen wrote: > A few years ago I was visiting luthier Joel Van Lennep, who showed me > his favorite material for fixed (body) frets: lilac. He said he > preferred it because it's very hard, and yet still flexible. > > > > Best to all, > > Eric > > On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Sterling <[1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > I have body frets on one lute made of an ivory-ebony sandwich and > they sound great up to the 14th fret. Cutting ivory is not easy > though as it tends to shatter. Another lute I have has > holly-ebony-holly frets. I like these flashy frets, but my friend > Bob Hieronimus hates them and prefers that the body frets are almost > invisible. > Sterling > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Dan Winheld <[2]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > > Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material > for body frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances > around in the lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's > advanced fantasias, etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably > Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. > I am thinking Ebony, some other dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even > some modern synthetic- but only if aesthetically acceptable & sonically > superior. If anyone knows of some magic non-metallic body fret material > I would really like to know. > > > > Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a > squared off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for > proper clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or > at least rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even > before installation for the non-luthier DIY amateur. > > > > Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > Eric Hansen > Librarian & lutenist -- > > References > > 1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com > 2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
Thanks all for the great replies. Lilac? That is the most intriguing of all. Holly and bamboo sound like good candidates also. Sterling- thanks for reminding me of those amazing frets! I must have seen them at Cleveland some time ago. A top professional guitar builder in my neighborhood recommends bone over ivory for strength & durability- I am considering letting him do my body frets this time around. Dan On 10/30/2013 9:23 AM, Eric Hansen wrote: A few years ago I was visiting luthier Joel Van Lennep, who showed me his favorite material for fixed (body) frets: lilac. He said he preferred it because it's very hard, and yet still flexible. Best to all, Eric On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Sterling <[1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> wrote: I have body frets on one lute made of an ivory-ebony sandwich and they sound great up to the 14th fret. Cutting ivory is not easy though as it tends to shatter. Another lute I have has holly-ebony-holly frets. I like these flashy frets, but my friend Bob Hieronimus hates them and prefers that the body frets are almost invisible. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Dan Winheld <[2]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material for body frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances around in the lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's advanced fantasias, etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. I am thinking Ebony, some other dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even some modern synthetic- but only if aesthetically acceptable & sonically superior. If anyone knows of some magic non-metallic body fret material I would really like to know. > > Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a squared off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for proper clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or at least rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even before installation for the non-luthier DIY amateur. > > Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. > > Dan > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Eric Hansen Librarian & lutenist -- References 1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
A few years ago I was visiting luthier Joel Van Lennep, who showed me his favorite material for fixed (body) frets: lilac. He said he preferred it because it's very hard, and yet still flexible. Best to all, Eric On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 6:21 AM, Sterling <[1]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> wrote: I have body frets on one lute made of an ivory-ebony sandwich and they sound great up to the 14th fret. Cutting ivory is not easy though as it tends to shatter. Another lute I have has holly-ebony-holly frets. I like these flashy frets, but my friend Bob Hieronimus hates them and prefers that the body frets are almost invisible. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Dan Winheld <[2]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material for body frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances around in the lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's advanced fantasias, etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. I am thinking Ebony, some other dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even some modern synthetic- but only if aesthetically acceptable & sonically superior. If anyone knows of some magic non-metallic body fret material I would really like to know. > > Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a squared off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for proper clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or at least rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even before installation for the non-luthier DIY amateur. > > Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. > > Dan > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Eric Hansen Librarian & lutenist -- References 1. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
I have body frets on one lute made of an ivory-ebony sandwich and they sound great up to the 14th fret. Cutting ivory is not easy though as it tends to shatter. Another lute I have has holly-ebony-holly frets. I like these flashy frets, but my friend Bob Hieronimus hates them and prefers that the body frets are almost invisible. Sterling Sent from my iPhone On Oct 29, 2013, at 11:05 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: > Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material for body > frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances around in the > lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's advanced fantasias, > etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound > pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. I am thinking Ebony, some other > dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even some modern synthetic- but only if > aesthetically acceptable & sonically superior. If anyone knows of some magic > non-metallic body fret material I would really like to know. > > Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a squared > off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for proper > clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or at least > rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even before installation > for the non-luthier DIY amateur. > > Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. > > Dan > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
Two factors are of importance here. First the fret has to be crowned to get a good tone however, many soundboards are very thin in the area where the body frets are supposed to be located. This makes tone production a wobbly affair. It is easy to know where the bars are situated because where the body fret is positioned on or very close to a bar the sound is much improved. Some luthiers glue additional bars to the soundboard to stiffen it up in the critical area, although the old ones sometimes do not have those bars. Not all historical lutes had body frets or so it seems. My favorite fret material is bamboo as it is very easy to split and after glueing it on is very easy to crown and adjust the height with a small chisel. Take care not to dig in the belly though! Happy luting! Lex Op 30 okt 2013, om 06:05 heeft Dan Winheld het volgende geschreven: > Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material for body > frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances around in the > lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's advanced fantasias, > etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound > pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. I am thinking Ebony, some other > dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even some modern synthetic- but only if > aesthetically acceptable & sonically superior. If anyone knows of some magic > non-metallic body fret material I would really like to know. > > Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a squared > off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for proper > clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or at least > rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even before installation > for the non-luthier DIY amateur. > > Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. > > Dan > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
Bamboo. Comes pre-shaped in the form of bbq/fondue skewers and/or tooth picks. David *** David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** On 30 October 2013 06:05, Dan Winheld <[3]dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material for body frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances around in the lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's advanced fantasias, etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. I am thinking Ebony, some other dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even some modern synthetic- but only if aesthetically acceptable & sonically superior. If anyone knows of some magic non-metallic body fret material I would really like to know. Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a squared off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for proper clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or at least rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even before installation for the non-luthier DIY amateur. Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 3. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Best body fret material?
Definitely rounded. I can't see how you'd shape them down in place on the belly so knock them off and make new ones. Tonewise, I don't think the material makes a significant difference but they'll sound a lot nicer when they are rounded. Much like the effect when you trade those old flat-topped gut frets for new ones. s On Oct 29, 2013, at 10:05 PM, Dan Winheld wrote: Talk of tastini has gotten me wondering, what is the best material for body frets? I have been playing a lot of music recently that dances around in the lute's stratosphere- Melchior Neusidler, Mudarra, Milan's advanced fantasias, etc. The plain wooden frets I have now- probably Maple, maybe Boxwood; sound pretty terrible compared to the gut frets. I am thinking Ebony, some other dense tropical hardwood, bone, or even some modern synthetic- but only if aesthetically acceptable & sonically superior. If anyone knows of some magic non- metallic body fret material I would really like to know. Part of the problem is the buzzing, unclean sound that results from a squared off fret- an inevitable result of having to shave them down for proper clearance after gluing down. Ideally, they should be crowned- or at least rounded edges for best tone. Tough, fussy job to do even before installation for the non-luthier DIY amateur. Thanks all for any enlightenment on this bit of lute pain. Dan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
