[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Stand Oil and Turpentine (or oher solvent) may well penetrate significantly but, of course, I'm not suggesting this. Use Stand Oil (air aged - do it yourself if necessary) alone as I described earlier. rgds MH Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, you say this but, I beg to differ having used plain Stand Oil (as > I already > described -clearly) for many years (and I know others who use > it). Perhaps > there's some difference between US Stand Oil and what we have in > ngland - > after all, thought you originally said that Stand Oil was merely Boiled > Linseed > Oil and I then explained it was not. It is not "merely" LO. There are basically 4 grades of linseed oil sold in the US. 1. Boiled (Industrial grade). 2. Boiled & bleached (Artist grade) 3. Stand (I don't think it is air aged anymore, must be some other chemical modification process) 4. Food grade (unbleached but purified) > > In short, it is indeed very viscous but by using a stiff rubber (thank > you > Howard) it can be applied as a thin surface coat which does not penetrate. > Why > don't you try it as I suggested to Rob? Of course, if your Stand > Oil over there is > different it will prove nothing. I often do all sorts of stain jobs for film scenery, and I assure you that stand+turpentine mix penetrates wood, and very beautifully. RT - All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
I have no idea, but a coat of sealant (rabbitskin glue???) inbetween would do the trick, as it certainly does in painting. RT > Roman, > > I really hate to disagree, but how come that violins 500 years old have > survived with their drying oils based varnishes though made of spruce and > maple? > > g > > > On 27.06.2006, at 23:23, Roman Turovsky wrote: > >> According to a colleague who was a paintings conservator at the Met >> Museum, >> linseed oil's acidic PH will react corrosively with alcaline one of such >> durable fiber as linen (if unprimed/sized). >> Linen is a lot more durable than spruce, to be sure. >> RT >> - Original Message - >> From: "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 5:04 PM >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I assume most of those ranting here have in fact tried to apply oil >>> to their soundboards. I have. Therefore I cannot believe that a small >>> quantity of drying oil does any harm AT ALL to the sound of the >>> finished instrument. Soundboard thickness is in the order of >>> magnitude of 1.5 mm. Well planed, it will accept a coat of say 0.02 >>> mm of any drying oil if applied not too generously. 0.02 mm is >>> approximately 1.3 percent of soundboard thickness. My congrats to >>> those with Golden Ears who hear the difference. >>> >>> g >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Roman, I really hate to disagree, but how come that violins 500 years old have survived with their drying oils based varnishes though made of spruce and maple? g On 27.06.2006, at 23:23, Roman Turovsky wrote: > According to a colleague who was a paintings conservator at the Met > Museum, > linseed oil's acidic PH will react corrosively with alcaline one of > such > durable fiber as linen (if unprimed/sized). > Linen is a lot more durable than spruce, to be sure. > RT > - Original Message - > From: "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 5:04 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) > > >> Hi all, >> >> I assume most of those ranting here have in fact tried to apply oil >> to their soundboards. I have. Therefore I cannot believe that a small >> quantity of drying oil does any harm AT ALL to the sound of the >> finished instrument. Soundboard thickness is in the order of >> magnitude of 1.5 mm. Well planed, it will accept a coat of say 0.02 >> mm of any drying oil if applied not too generously. 0.02 mm is >> approximately 1.3 percent of soundboard thickness. My congrats to >> those with Golden Ears who hear the difference. >> >> g >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > >
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
According to a colleague who was a paintings conservator at the Met Museum, linseed oil's acidic PH will react corrosively with alcaline one of such durable fiber as linen (if unprimed/sized). Linen is a lot more durable than spruce, to be sure. RT - Original Message - From: "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 5:04 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) > Hi all, > > I assume most of those ranting here have in fact tried to apply oil > to their soundboards. I have. Therefore I cannot believe that a small > quantity of drying oil does any harm AT ALL to the sound of the > finished instrument. Soundboard thickness is in the order of > magnitude of 1.5 mm. Well planed, it will accept a coat of say 0.02 > mm of any drying oil if applied not too generously. 0.02 mm is > approximately 1.3 percent of soundboard thickness. My congrats to > those with Golden Ears who hear the difference. > > g > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Hi all, I assume most of those ranting here have in fact tried to apply oil to their soundboards. I have. Therefore I cannot believe that a small quantity of drying oil does any harm AT ALL to the sound of the finished instrument. Soundboard thickness is in the order of magnitude of 1.5 mm. Well planed, it will accept a coat of say 0.02 mm of any drying oil if applied not too generously. 0.02 mm is approximately 1.3 percent of soundboard thickness. My congrats to those with Golden Ears who hear the difference. g To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
> Well, you say this but, I beg to differ having used plain Stand Oil (as > I already > described -clearly) for many years (and I know others who use > it). Perhaps > there's some difference between US Stand Oil and what we have in > ngland - > after all, thought you originally said that Stand Oil was merely Boiled > Linseed > Oil and I then explained it was not. It is not "merely" LO. There are basically 4 grades of linseed oil sold in the US. 1. Boiled (Industrial grade). 2. Boiled & bleached (Artist grade) 3. Stand (I don't think it is air aged anymore, must be some other chemical modification process) 4. Food grade (unbleached but purified) > > In short, it is indeed very viscous but by using a stiff rubber (thank > you > Howard) it can be applied as a thin surface coat which does not penetrate. > Why > don't you try it as I suggested to Rob? Of course, if your Stand > Oil over there is > different it will prove nothing. I often do all sorts of stain jobs for film scenery, and I assure you that stand+turpentine mix penetrates wood, and very beautifully. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Dear Rob, Thank you fr ths. As said previously, and repeated again in my recent eml on ths to Roman T, stand oil, if sufficiently oxidised, will not soak into and permeate the wood; it will provide just the sort of surface film I understand you're seeking. If using this there's really no need, at least in my view, to mix with other substances but by all means do report your findings in due course. Best wishes, Martyn Rob Dorsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dearest Martyn, My dear fellow, I fear that we disagree on so many points that this forum fails to provide sufficient room or expediency to carry on the debate. I'm sure Mr. Van Edwards is a wonderful builder and having "reflected on his advice" I'm equally sure that someone has misunderstood him, in whole or in part. I'm quite certain in saying that no responsible maker would introduce oil into the tone wood. As for empirical evidence, over the years I/we have experimented with just about every varnish or coating imaginable on lutes (spirit varnishes, oil varnishes of the violin type, waxes and even bloody sprayed NC lacquer) so my opinions are base on direct observations, not whimsy. And, please don't assume that we don't know what stand oil is "over here". We paint as well. To perhaps facilitate a conciliation, however, I did just read of a practice of putting a bit, a teeny, tiny bit, of proper stand oil (the real kind, linseed, walnut oil or such which has been exposed to the air and allowed to thicken whilst being regularly stirred to preclude formation of a "skin") into the beeswax-turpentine paste used to wax the soundboard in order to color it and provide a bit of elasticity. This I have not experimented with but will do. I fear however, that what the soundboard least needs is elasticity. It wants protection of its light and brittle structure for brightness and projection, depending of course on the historical period of the instrument and style of playing. Remember, our lute tops are but 1.8mm in thickness at the thickest part and approach 1mm (the thickness of a halfpenny) at the thin parts. It takes little soaking to permeate the wood. In all, it sounds interesting and I'll make up a test batch and report to this forum on the findings although I'm skeptical of the results. As I said previously, I'll build 'em my way, you build 'em yours and we'll let the players decide. Right now I've got to go down and build a peg box and put some lovely thin shellac on a soundboard. All the Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:31 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) Dear Rob, Thank you again fr ths. Having pondered your views, I think you misunderstand the nature of Stand Oil: being so extremely viscous it does not penetrate the wood to any significant degree. Indeed, its characteristics are closer to a stiff varnish (be it oil or the spirirt based as you prefer to use) than to a low viscosity oil such as tool oil which may, indeed, soak into spruce to some depth (wether that is a good or bad thing is a different matter and needs some verifiable research). From your response I take it that you have not, in fact, tried proper Stand Oil; perhaps you might care experiment on off-cuts. Nonwithstanding the above, an earlier email mentions that David Van Edwards suggests using oil on bellies and, since he is widely recognised as being one of the finest lute makers around today, you may also care to reflect on this advice.. Linseed Oil has an ancient history of widespread use in painting, wood finishing and varnishes (including instrument varnishes) and was readily available to the Old Ones. Regarding spirit based finishes which you prefer to use, you may be aware that they have been castigated at various times for putting a hard and stiff coating onto instruments' bellies and stifling the sound. In fact, I know of no proper research which supports this view but neither of any which supports your own position of the superiority of spririt based coatings to oil based. rgds MH Rob Dorsey wrote: Hi Martyn, I hate to be redundant all over again but, in my humble opinion (my wife cautions me against that phrase owing that she reckons I've never had a humble opinion) no oil of any kind should be used on the soundboard of a lute, period, full stop, poink! Only nothing, a practical inconvenience because you can't keep the board clean, or pure light shellac, seals the wood and dries glass hard, or wax, issuing either from the bee or the wily carnauba which I am made to understand is devilishly difficult to catch. Again, in great fear of ranting (another of my bride's accusations) I will reiterate ad nauseum, NO OIL ON THE SOUNDBOARD. As for oth
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Dearest Martyn, My dear fellow, I fear that we disagree on so many points that this forum fails to provide sufficient room or expediency to carry on the debate. I'm sure Mr. Van Edwards is a wonderful builder and having "reflected on his advice" I'm equally sure that someone has misunderstood him, in whole or in part. I'm quite certain in saying that no responsible maker would introduce oil into the tone wood. As for empirical evidence, over the years I/we have experimented with just about every varnish or coating imaginable on lutes (spirit varnishes, oil varnishes of the violin type, waxes and even bloody sprayed NC lacquer) so my opinions are base on direct observations, not whimsy. And, please don't assume that we don't know what stand oil is "over here". We paint as well. To perhaps facilitate a conciliation, however, I did just read of a practice of putting a bit, a teeny, tiny bit, of proper stand oil (the real kind, linseed, walnut oil or such which has been exposed to the air and allowed to thicken whilst being regularly stirred to preclude formation of a "skin") into the beeswax-turpentine paste used to wax the soundboard in order to color it and provide a bit of elasticity. This I have not experimented with but will do. I fear however, that what the soundboard least needs is elasticity. It wants protection of its light and brittle structure for brightness and projection, depending of course on the historical period of the instrument and style of playing. Remember, our lute tops are but 1.8mm in thickness at the thickest part and approach 1mm (the thickness of a halfpenny) at the thin parts. It takes little soaking to permeate the wood. In all, it sounds interesting and I'll make up a test batch and report to this forum on the findings although I'm skeptical of the results. As I said previously, I'll build 'em my way, you build 'em yours and we'll let the players decide. Right now I've got to go down and build a peg box and put some lovely thin shellac on a soundboard. All the Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 2:31 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) Dear Rob, Thank you again fr ths. Having pondered your views, I think you misunderstand the nature of Stand Oil: being so extremely viscous it does not penetrate the wood to any significant degree. Indeed, its characteristics are closer to a stiff varnish (be it oil or the spirirt based as you prefer to use) than to a low viscosity oil such as tool oil which may, indeed, soak into spruce to some depth (wether that is a good or bad thing is a different matter and needs some verifiable research). From your response I take it that you have not, in fact, tried proper Stand Oil; perhaps you might care experiment on off-cuts. Nonwithstanding the above, an earlier email mentions that David Van Edwards suggests using oil on bellies and, since he is widely recognised as being one of the finest lute makers around today, you may also care to reflect on this advice.. Linseed Oil has an ancient history of widespread use in painting, wood finishing and varnishes (including instrument varnishes) and was readily available to the Old Ones. Regarding spirit based finishes which you prefer to use, you may be aware that they have been castigated at various times for putting a hard and stiff coating onto instruments' bellies and stifling the sound. In fact, I know of no proper research which supports this view but neither of any which supports your own position of the superiority of spririt based coatings to oil based. rgds MH Rob Dorsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Martyn, I hate to be redundant all over again but, in my humble opinion (my wife cautions me against that phrase owing that she reckons I've never had a humble opinion) no oil of any kind should be used on the soundboard of a lute, period, full stop, poink! Only nothing, a practical inconvenience because you can't keep the board clean, or pure light shellac, seals the wood and dries glass hard, or wax, issuing either from the bee or the wily carnauba which I am made to understand is devilishly difficult to catch. Again, in great fear of ranting (another of my bride's accusations) I will reiterate ad nauseum, NO OIL ON THE SOUNDBOARD. As for others who counsel oil I'm afraid that if God himself told me to put an oil varnish on a lute belly, I'd reckon him wrong, gently forect him (he's...you know...after all) and hope I didn't get transformed into a newt for my arrogance. Oil and spruce, or cedar or redwood for that matter, don' mix unless you plan to live in it or sit on it. Thus endeth the rant, for the moment, Rob Dorsey http://robdorsey.com <http://robdorsey.com/>
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Well, you say this but, I beg to differ having used plain Stand Oil (as I already described -clearly) for many years (and I know others who use it). Perhaps there's some difference between US Stand Oil and what we have in England - after all, I thought you originally said that Stand Oil was merely Boiled Linseed Oil and I then explained it was not. In short, it is indeed very viscous but by using a stiff rubber (thank you Howard) it can be applied as a thin surface coat which does not penetrate. Why don't you try it as I suggested to Rob? Of course, if your Stand Oil over there is different it will prove nothing. rgds MH Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Having said this, To make it clear, stand oil cannot be used at all without being diluted in turpentine, and in its usable form it certainly can penetrate any wood. RT > Thank you fr this. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: by having an > 'ancient history' I did not mean an history going back to antiquity > (Greek/ Roman etc) but a long history of usage (in Europe). First > (European) use in the 1400s, as you report, is quite old enough for me to > give it a pedigree! > > > MH > > > > Roman Turovsky wrote: > > >> Nonwithstanding the above, an earlier email mentions that David Van >> Edwards suggests using oil on bellies and, since he is widely recognised >> as being > one of the finest lute makers around today, you may also care >> to reflect on this advice.. >> >> Linseed Oil has an ancient history of widespread use in painting, wood >> finishing and varnishes (including instrument varnishes) and was readily >> available to the Old Ones. > Linseed oil has no ancient history in painting. > It was first used as a painting medium in Flanders by VanEyk in the > 1400's, > and brought into Italy by his student Antonello da Messina. The ancients > already new that it had PH detrimental to fiber and required gelatin > sealant > barrier. > RT > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > - > The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address > from your Internet provider. > -- > - All New Yahoo! Mail Tired of [EMAIL PROTECTED]@! come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. --
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Having said this, To make it clear, stand oil cannot be used at all without being diluted in turpentine, and in its usable form it certainly can penetrate any wood. RT > Thank you fr this. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: by having an > 'ancient history' I did not mean an history going back to antiquity > (Greek/ Roman etc) but a long history of usage (in Europe). First > (European) use in the 1400s, as you report, is quite old enough for me to > give it a pedigree! > > > MH > > > > Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> Nonwithstanding the above, an earlier email mentions that David Van >> Edwards suggests using oil on bellies and, since he is widely recognised >> as being > one of the finest lute makers around today, you may also care >> to reflect on this advice.. >> >> Linseed Oil has an ancient history of widespread use in painting, wood >> finishing and varnishes (including instrument varnishes) and was readily >> available to the Old Ones. > Linseed oil has no ancient history in painting. > It was first used as a painting medium in Flanders by VanEyk in the > 1400's, > and brought into Italy by his student Antonello da Messina. The ancients > already new that it had PH detrimental to fiber and required gelatin > sealant > barrier. > RT > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > - > The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address > from your Internet provider. > -- >
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Thank you fr this. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear: by having an 'ancient history' I did not mean an history going back to antiquity (Greek/ Roman etc) but a long history of usage (in Europe). First (European) use in the 1400s, as you report, is quite old enough for me to give it a pedigree! MH Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Nonwithstanding the above, an earlier email mentions that David Van > Edwards suggests using oil on bellies and, since he is widely recognised > as being > one of the finest lute makers around today, you may also care > to reflect on this advice.. > > Linseed Oil has an ancient history of widespread use in painting, wood > finishing and varnishes (including instrument varnishes) and was readily > available to the Old Ones. Linseed oil has no ancient history in painting. It was first used as a painting medium in Flanders by VanEyk in the 1400's, and brought into Italy by his student Antonello da Messina. The ancients already new that it had PH detrimental to fiber and required gelatin sealant barrier. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. --
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
> > Nonwithstanding the above, an earlier email mentions that David Van > Edwards suggests using oil on bellies and, since he is widely recognised > as being > one of the finest lute makers around today, you may also care > to reflect on this advice.. > > Linseed Oil has an ancient history of widespread use in painting, wood > finishing and varnishes (including instrument varnishes) and was readily > available to the Old Ones. Linseed oil has no ancient history in painting. It was first used as a painting medium in Flanders by VanEyk in the 1400's, and brought into Italy by his student Antonello da Messina. The ancients already new that it had PH detrimental to fiber and required gelatin sealant barrier. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Dear Rob, Thank you again fr ths. Having pondered your views, I think you misunderstand the nature of Stand Oil: being so extremely viscous it does not penetrate the wood to any significant degree. Indeed, its characteristics are closer to a stiff varnish (be it oil or the spirirt based as you prefer to use) than to a low viscosity oil such as tool oil which may, indeed, soak into spruce to some depth (wether that is a good or bad thing is a different matter and needs some verifiable research). From your response I take it that you have not, in fact, tried proper Stand Oil; perhaps you might care experiment on off-cuts. Nonwithstanding the above, an earlier email mentions that David Van Edwards suggests using oil on bellies and, since he is widely recognised as being one of the finest lute makers around today, you may also care to reflect on this advice.. Linseed Oil has an ancient history of widespread use in painting, wood finishing and varnishes (including instrument varnishes) and was readily available to the Old Ones. Regarding spirit based finishes which you prefer to use, you may be aware that they have been castigated at various times for putting a hard and stiff coating onto instruments' bellies and stifling the sound. In fact, I know of no proper research which supports this view but neither of any which supports your own position of the superiority of spririt based coatings to oil based. rgds MH Rob Dorsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Martyn, I hate to be redundant all over again but, in my humble opinion (my wife cautions me against that phrase owing that she reckons I've never had a humble opinion) no oil of any kind should be used on the soundboard of a lute, period, full stop, poink! Only nothing, a practical inconvenience because you can't keep the board clean, or pure light shellac, seals the wood and dries glass hard, or wax, issuing either from the bee or the wily carnauba which I am made to understand is devilishly difficult to catch. Again, in great fear of ranting (another of my bride's accusations) I will reiterate ad nauseum, NO OIL ON THE SOUNDBOARD. As for others who counsel oil I'm afraid that if God himself told me to put an oil varnish on a lute belly, I'd reckon him wrong, gently forect him (he's...you know...after all) and hope I didn't get transformed into a newt for my arrogance. Oil and spruce, or cedar or redwood for that matter, don' mix unless you plan to live in it or sit on it. Thus endeth the rant, for the moment, Rob Dorsey http://robdorsey.com - From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 1:18 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and hardens as a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is applied with a stiff rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any experience of it? There is evidence that some violins (eg Joseph Michelmas ' Violin Varnish' et alia) were given a ground coat which was allowed to harden prior to varnishing. MH - All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Thank you for this Rob, However I disagree. As mentioned earlier there are other sources (eg Michelmas) who discuss this further. regards MH PS what do you think the Old Ones used? Rob Dorsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Martyn, I hate to be redundant all over again but, in my humble opinion (my wife cautions me against that phrase owing that she reckons I've never had a humble opinion) no oil of any kind should be used on the soundboard of a lute, period, full stop, poink! Only nothing, a practical inconvenience because you can't keep the board clean, or pure light shellac, seals the wood and dries glass hard, or wax, issuing either from the bee or the wily carnauba which I am made to understand is devilishly difficult to catch. Again, in great fear of ranting (another of my bride's accusations) I will reiterate ad nauseum, NO OIL ON THE SOUNDBOARD. As for others who counsel oil I'm afraid that if God himself told me to put an oil varnish on a lute belly, I'd reckon him wrong, gently forect him (he's...you know...after all) and hope I didn't get transformed into a newt for my arrogance. Oil and spruce, or cedar or redwood for that matter, don' mix unless you plan to live in it or sit on it. Thus endeth the rant, for the moment, Rob Dorsey http://robdorsey.com _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 1:18 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and hardens as a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is applied with a stiff rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any experience of it? There is evidence that some violins (eg Joseph Michelmas ' Violin Varnish' et alia) were given a ground coat which was allowed to harden prior to varnishing. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine --
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Rob is absolutely right. Linseed oil enters into a chemical reaction with any thin vegetable support, such as wood, linen or canvas, and CORRODES it. For Art's purposes this is dealt with by putting a gelatinous barrier (sizing of rabbitskin glue) between the linen/canvas/wood and the layer of linseed oil based gesso. This is not a problem in furniture, but it contains a lot more wood. RT > Again, in great fear of ranting (another of my bride's accusations) I will > reiterate ad nauseum, NO OIL ON THE SOUNDBOARD. As for others who counsel > oil I'm afraid that if God himself told me to put an oil varnish on a lute > belly, I'd reckon him wrong, gently forect him (he's...you know...after > all) > and hope I didn't get transformed into a newt for my arrogance. Oil and > spruce, or cedar or redwood for that matter, don' mix unless you plan to > live in it or sit on it. > > Thus endeth the rant, for the moment, > Rob Dorsey > http://robdorsey.com > > _ > > From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 1:18 AM > To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) > > > > True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and > hardens as a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is > applied with a stiff rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any > experience of it? > > There is evidence that some violins (eg Joseph Michelmas ' Violin > Varnish' > et alia) were given a ground coat which was allowed to harden prior to > varnishing. > > MH > > -- > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Hi Martyn, I hate to be redundant all over again but, in my humble opinion (my wife cautions me against that phrase owing that she reckons I've never had a humble opinion) no oil of any kind should be used on the soundboard of a lute, period, full stop, poink! Only nothing, a practical inconvenience because you can't keep the board clean, or pure light shellac, seals the wood and dries glass hard, or wax, issuing either from the bee or the wily carnauba which I am made to understand is devilishly difficult to catch. Again, in great fear of ranting (another of my bride's accusations) I will reiterate ad nauseum, NO OIL ON THE SOUNDBOARD. As for others who counsel oil I'm afraid that if God himself told me to put an oil varnish on a lute belly, I'd reckon him wrong, gently forect him (he's...you know...after all) and hope I didn't get transformed into a newt for my arrogance. Oil and spruce, or cedar or redwood for that matter, don' mix unless you plan to live in it or sit on it. Thus endeth the rant, for the moment, Rob Dorsey http://robdorsey.com _ From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2006 1:18 AM To: Rob Dorsey; Lute Net Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and hardens as a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is applied with a stiff rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any experience of it? There is evidence that some violins (eg Joseph Michelmas ' Violin Varnish' et alia) were given a ground coat which was allowed to harden prior to varnishing. MH -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
All oil used in NORMAL painting has to be diluted. Pure stand oil would create enormous amorphous buildup. It has to produce thinnest possible film to be stable. Bees' or sinthetic wax is added to all artists' oil paint for added stability. The problem with linseed oil or any derivative thereof is that it NEVER really oxidizes and still "moves" hundreds years later, in spite of "drying" overnight, which in turn creates problems for restorers. The preservation department at the Metropolitan Museum thus always uses acrylic to patch the damaged areas. Our Ken Be is presumed to do the same at Cleveland. RT > Yes, I was aware of the widespread historic use of linseed oil in > painting: in your expert view is there an optimum time for using stand > oil? By this I mean, at what level of oxidation does it become unworkable > for painting before the use of alcohol or turpentine is required to thin > it. For example, I have some stood for 10 years which seems almost solid > but when rubbed breaks down ie liquifies to some degree - the only problem > with this is that on instrument bellies (especially lutes) to break down > such a very oxidised oil can require so much pressure as to put the belly > and bars in jeopardy. On the plus side, however, it hardens overnight! > > I generally use stand oil which has aged/stood for 3/4 years. > > MH > > Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and >> hardens as > a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is >> applied with a stiff >> rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any experience of it? >> > I use use Stand Oil for all of my painting (seen at http://turovsky.org). > It > is my favorite medium. It easily thins out in mineral spirits or > turpentine. > RT > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > - > Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All > New Yahoo! Mail. > -- >
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Yes, I was aware of the widespread historic use of linseed oil in painting: in your expert view is there an optimum time for using stand oil? By this I mean, at what level of oxidation does it become unworkable for painting before the use of alcohol or turpentine is required to thin it. For example, I have some stood for 10 years which seems almost solid but when rubbed breaks down ie liquifies to some degree - the only problem with this is that on instrument bellies (especially lutes) to break down such a very oxidised oil can require so much pressure as to put the belly and bars in jeopardy. On the plus side, however, it hardens overnight! I generally use stand oil which has aged/stood for 3/4 years. MH Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and > hardens as > a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is > applied with a stiff > rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any experience of it? > I use use Stand Oil for all of my painting (seen at http://turovsky.org). It is my favorite medium. It easily thins out in mineral spirits or turpentine. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New Yahoo! Mail. --
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
> True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and > hardens as > a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is > applied with a stiff > rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any experience of it? > I use use Stand Oil for all of my painting (seen at http://turovsky.org). It is my favorite medium. It easily thins out in mineral spirits or turpentine. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Martyn Hodgson wrote: > True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) > and hardens as a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. > It is applied with a stiff rubber Two countries separated by a common language indeed. Most of us Yanks are familiar with "treacle" in the sense of "sentimental rubbish" but don't actually know what treacle is (either molasses or something like it?) and over here the idea of applying something with a stiff rubber sets the mind reeling. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
True Stand Oil is extremely thick and viscous (rather like treacle) and hardens as a surface film rather than 'soaking into the wood'. It is applied with a stiff rubber and cannot be 'painted' on. Have you any experience of it? There is evidence that some violins (eg Joseph Michelmas ' Violin Varnish' et alia) were given a ground coat which was allowed to harden prior to varnishing. MH Rob Dorsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: All, I truly hate to muddy this arcane thread with an opinion but I would strongly counsel against introducing oil of any kind into the soundboard. The cellular and resin characteristics of something as fragile as spruce are substantially and irrevocably altered by introducing oils into the grain. And, it will soak in and permeate the structure, forever altering the soundboard. That is, you cannot get it out once it's in. Water or alcohol based coatings, like spirit varnish or plain shellac, remain brittle and hard so they are acoustically viable in a vibrating system. Wax, likewise, is hard and only microns thick, imparting little to the sound of the board. Oil, that's a different matter and I would not recommend that anyone introduce it into their soundboard without a lot of soul searching and "sound" research. Sorry to so strongly opine but I felt that, in this casem a gram of intervention was worth a kilo of cure. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider. --
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Ron, With all respect, that premise could not be more wrongheaded and I shudder to think of such soundboards. Oil is the enemy of spruce. The early violin makers who used an "oil varnish" invariably did so after applying a sealer of egg white or shellac. They used an oil based varnish only because of availability. I use an oil varnish, a simple drying oil based on linseed, walnut or such, only on the ebony or rosewood surfaces. I would never, never, use oil on the delicate and fragile surface of the "speaking" parts of the lute. These need the sealing power and acoustic properties of a hard and thin non-penetrating coating like shellac or wax. In short, oil and spruce do not mix. While I am a lute heretic and often advocate alternate and modern methods on this list, some things are beyond alteration. I'm sure that an oil varnish, lovingly applied LOOKS great but the alteration and damage to the sound of the soundboard are immense. I would hasten to dissuade anyone from such a practice. Cutting to the chase, you make'em your way and I'll make'em mine. See you at the recompense. Passion is the stuff life is made of, what, what? Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Ron Fletcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:44 PM To: 'Rob Dorsey' Subject: RE: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) Hi Rob, Several readers on this list have made their own lutes with guidance from David van Edwards. I am fairly sure he advocated the use of Danish Oil to seal the soundboard. Lightly rubbed over with a soft cloth. I think applying it this way is not going to saturate the fibres of the whole thickness of the soundboard. It dries like a very thin varnish. This is quite easily available in UK DIY stores. I think there was mention of it being called something else in the US, or an ingredient of it. China/Japanese Nut Oil? - I will have to look on the tin next time I go into my garage! Best Wishes Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
On Jun 24, 2006, at 9:59 AM, Rob Dorsey wrote: > ...We are so lucky now, with the technology of every aspect of > instrument making from tool steels to glues to coatings not to > mention the > plethora of exotic woods unavailable to the historical makers, that > copying > a 16th century technique seems archaic at best. Isn't that mostly what we do in the lute world: copy archaic techniques? There certainly seems to be little argument against copying 16th-century playing techniques, consulting archaic sources for advice (and at times even ironclad doctrine) on performance practice, poring over archaic sources for any crumbs of enlightening scholarly information they might contain. We even research the historically correct "body comportment," presumably in order to emulate it in some way. I realize that "authentic" in it's extremely purist sense has long since been debunked in the early-music world, and that we have in fact moved on to "historically informed," which means that we can be "aware" of something in history without particularly having to copy it if we don't want to. But personally I love the idea of copying archaic techniques: to me that's more than half the fun of luteplaying! David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
I go with ye Rob! Please stay away from any oils on the soundboard. They will only get in the wood in stead of protecting it. It may also cause the wood to swell up (although I'm not really sure of that). Wax will stay on the wood as a sort of small film and thus protecting it. If you really want a protection against stains etc, use shellac, but of course it will make a (slight) difference in sound (like factory finished guitars against luthier finished guitars: Polyurethane lacquer against shellac). Cheers, Ernstjan Ernstjan van Geest - Luthier van Geest Gitaar & Luitbouw - Hasselt, Belgium www.vangeest.be 011 / 43.77.71 -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Rob Dorsey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: zaterdag 24 juni 2006 19:27 Aan: 'Roman Turovsky'; 'Lutelist' Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) All, I truly hate to muddy this arcane thread with an opinion but I would strongly counsel against introducing oil of any kind into the soundboard. The cellular and resin characteristics of something as fragile as spruce are substantially and irrevocably altered by introducing oils into the grain. And, it will soak in and permeate the structure, forever altering the soundboard. That is, you cannot get it out once it's in. Water or alcohol based coatings, like spirit varnish or plain shellac, remain brittle and hard so they are acoustically viable in a vibrating system. Wax, likewise, is hard and only microns thick, imparting little to the sound of the board. Oil, that's a different matter and I would not recommend that anyone introduce it into their soundboard without a lot of soul searching and "sound" research. Sorry to so strongly opine but I felt that, in this casem a gram of intervention was worth a kilo of cure. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
All, I truly hate to muddy this arcane thread with an opinion but I would strongly counsel against introducing oil of any kind into the soundboard. The cellular and resin characteristics of something as fragile as spruce are substantially and irrevocably altered by introducing oils into the grain. And, it will soak in and permeate the structure, forever altering the soundboard. That is, you cannot get it out once it's in. Water or alcohol based coatings, like spirit varnish or plain shellac, remain brittle and hard so they are acoustically viable in a vibrating system. Wax, likewise, is hard and only microns thick, imparting little to the sound of the board. Oil, that's a different matter and I would not recommend that anyone introduce it into their soundboard without a lot of soul searching and "sound" research. Sorry to so strongly opine but I felt that, in this casem a gram of intervention was worth a kilo of cure. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
All linseed oil is boiled to remove the impurities. I don't think Stand Oil (Olypha, Drying Oil) is air aged anymore (it is a common art material), but rather boiled more, possibly with additives. Otherwise it would cost a great deal more than it does. RT > > The stuff you mention is called ' Boiled Linseed Oil' in England; Stand > Oil is as I described earlier. > > MH > > Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Try Stand Oil - ie linseed oil which has partly oxidised (and therefore >> thick and > very viscous) by being exposed to air (12 months or more I >> believe). > It is made by boiling bleached linseed oil. > RT > > > > > > - > Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to > use" - The Wall Street Journal > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
The stuff you mention is called ' Boiled Linseed Oil' in England; Stand Oil is as I described earlier. MH Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Try Stand Oil - ie linseed oil which has partly oxidised (and therefore > thick and > very viscous) by being exposed to air (12 months or more I > believe). It is made by boiling bleached linseed oil. RT - Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail . "The New Version is radically easier to use" The Wall Street Journal -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
> Try Stand Oil - ie linseed oil which has partly oxidised (and therefore > thick and > very viscous) by being exposed to air (12 months or more I > believe). It is made by boiling bleached linseed oil. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Try Stand Oil - ie linseed oil which has partly oxidised (and therefore thick and very viscous) by being exposed to air (12 months or more I believe). This hardens in a couple of days to a generally mattish sheen. Various violin varnish books mention it as a possible ground prior to varnishing. MH "Bruce O. Bowes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Can anybody give me information on what and how this should be done. The raw wood is already becoming stained from the oils in my hand and arm. The lute is a Pakistani lute so we are not talking about a very fine or delicate instrument. The sound board is not the finest spruce either. Thank you. Bruce -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 7p a photo. --
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Craig, You, of course, are right about the egg white "varnish". I seems to have been popular with the Italian makers (most of whom were expatriate Germans) and the Cremonese violin makers through most of the "golden age" and into the late 17th century. However, and you explanation of capturing the stuff is quite nice, particularly the crème brule part, I've experimented with the egg white and am unimpressed with the results. A thin wash of really good, lightest blond shellac (my favorite soundboard coating) is far superior in my opinion. We are so lucky now, with the technology of every aspect of instrument making from tool steels to glues to coatings not to mention the plethora of exotic woods unavailable to the historical makers, that copying a 16th century technique seems archaic at best. I offered the beeswax fix because it is easy and it works, but not so well as the shellac. (Other makers please note that I am talking about a 1/2 strength cut of very blond shellac which is followed by beeswax. It is well argued that over-finishing of the soundboard can dramatically alter the sound.) Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:47 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table) Rob Dorsey wrote: >First, I'm a bit surprised that the soundboard had no finish. Lots of >the historical instruments had a finish on the board to preclude >handling stains and what we hope was wine/beer damage. However, the fix >for yours is probably what most historical instruments in fact had, simple bees wax. I don't know if beeswax was or was not used on Renaissance or earlier lutes, but I de recall reading a citation from period describing what the Italians called "white varnish". This was simply glair, a substance made from egg white. I know several calligraphers who recreate illuminated manuscripts who use glair as a base for adding gilding, and David van Edwards talked about its use as a varnish for lute tops in his Renaissance lute building course (but I can't find the citation just now). To make it simply separate several eggs and place the whites in a bowl in your refrigerator for a few days (reserve the yolks to make creme brule which has nothing to do with varnish but can be enjoyed with a nice glass of Port while listening to your favorite lute recordings). The whites will separate further into a watery substance and a viscous substance. Save the watery bits as this is the glair and toss the rest. Brush it on sparingly and evenly and let dry. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Hi, I know the Pakistani lutes (I have of few of them myself for rental/initiation). They are not the best "sounding" lute but (with a few alterations) they give you a good way to learn playing the lute. The soundboard is protected with some sort of wax I guess. To keep it simple and cheap here, I would suggest buying plain cabinet-wax (or however you may call it) Just a tin of beeswax/carnauba wax mixture with some turpentine as a softener. There's a very wide range commercially available, but choose a non coloured one. Apply it gently with a clean cloth and wipe off any excess. Cheers, Ernstjan Ernstjan van Geest - Luthier van Geest Gitaar & Luitbouw - Hasselt, Belgium www.vangeest.be 011 / 43.77.71 -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Bruce O. Bowes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: zaterdag 24 juni 2006 2:20 Aan: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Onderwerp: [LUTE] Protecting the unfinished top (table) Can anybody give me information on what and how this should be done. The raw wood is already becoming stained from the oils in my hand and arm. The lute is a Pakistani lute so we are not talking about a very fine or delicate instrument. The sound board is not the finest spruce either. Thank you. Bruce -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Rob Dorsey wrote: >First, I'm a bit surprised that the soundboard had no finish. Lots of the >historical instruments had a finish on the board to preclude handling stains >and what we hope was wine/beer damage. However, the fix for yours is >probably what most historical instruments in fact had, simple bees wax. I don't know if beeswax was or was not used on Renaissance or earlier lutes, but I de recall reading a citation from period describing what the Italians called "white varnish". This was simply glair, a substance made from egg white. I know several calligraphers who recreate illuminated manuscripts who use glair as a base for adding gilding, and David van Edwards talked about its use as a varnish for lute tops in his Renaissance lute building course (but I can't find the citation just now). To make it simply separate several eggs and place the whites in a bowl in your refrigerator for a few days (reserve the yolks to make creme brule which has nothing to do with varnish but can be enjoyed with a nice glass of Port while listening to your favorite lute recordings). The whites will separate further into a watery substance and a viscous substance. Save the watery bits as this is the glair and toss the rest. Brush it on sparingly and evenly and let dry. Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Protecting the unfinished top (table)
Bruce, First, I'm a bit surprised that the soundboard had no finish. Lots of the historical instruments had a finish on the board to preclude handling stains and what we hope was wine/beer damage. However, the fix for yours is probably what most historical instruments in fact had, simple bees wax. Go to any art store and buy a small block of pure beeswax. Put it in a container and cover it with turpentine. In a day or so it will dissolve the wax into a creamy paste the color and constancy of whipped honey. Wipe the belly first with a cloth dampened in turpentine and try to clean up the oil stains and let it dry. Then, put a nice coat of the wax on the whole belly surface, buffing it out with a soft cloth immediately. No need to wait for it to dry. Repeat this about 4 times and you will have a fairly shiny coating that will resist your dirtiest hands. If it does discolor, just wipe the area with turpentine again and re-apply the wax. The paste has a shelf life measured in decades and is the best wax I've used. It rivals the product "Renaissance Wax" which is a bit better for cleaning and waxing the whole lute. This stuff is best for bare wood protection. Best, Rob Dorsey, luthier http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: Bruce O. Bowes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 8:20 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Protecting the unfinished top (table) Can anybody give me information on what and how this should be done. The raw wood is already becoming stained from the oils in my hand and arm. The lute is a Pakistani lute so we are not talking about a very fine or delicate instrument. The sound board is not the finest spruce either. Thank you. Bruce -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
