[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Dear Arto, I for my part am very grateful that you record these pieces, which are vary rarely heard. I much enjoy listening to them, often they are of great charme and gracefulness. And even if you say it's not perfect, it's an opportunity to get an idea how the pieces sounded in the first place. I am often struggling to find a lute or vihuela piece recorded on internet, so any recording of some quality is greatly appreciated. This is certainly a difference to piano music where the main repertoire and even much of more remote stuff can be found recorded by the giant performers time and again thus amateur recordings are not needed in these cases (though they are welcome with rarely recorded pieces). Best Franz __ From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Arto Wikla Sent: Sat 31.03.2012 06:03 To: 'Lute Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity The url should be [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2wfeature=youtu.be Arto On 31/03/12 02:56, David Smith wrote: Utube claims it is a bad formed url. The Vimeo works fine. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arto Wikla Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:48 PM To: 'Lute Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I continue my quantity postings... ;) Today I tried to tube L'Imperieuse, Allemande de Mouton (ms. Praha Kk 80). Far, very far, from perfect. And yes, I do know quite well quite a few places that should and could have been done better... Anyhow, this style of music - fragmentary, kind of vague here and there, short phrases, etc. - pleases me much! Vague as life! I'll try to become better in showing that also to others... Here is what I could do today: [1][3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2w and [2][4]http://vimeo.com/39492200 And the Courante is coming... Sorry ;-) Best, Arto On 28/03/12 22:26, Arto Wikla wrote: Still more quantity to the tubes! I just tried to solve one puzzle of unmeasured preludes - this time Mouton's puzzle in g-minor. I think I found something, but I am very sure there is also much that I did not get: [3][5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?vIM2IYAh0Cg and the same also in [4][6]http://vimeo.com/39352252 Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [5][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2w 2. [9]http://vimeo.com/39492200 3. [10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C3%8EM2IYAh0Cg 4. [11]http://vimeo.com/39352252 5. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2wfeature=youtu.be 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2w 4. http://vimeo.com/39492200 5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?vIM2IYAh0Cg 6. http://vimeo.com/39352252 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2w 9. http://vimeo.com/39492200 10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C3%8EM2IYAh0Cg 11. http://vimeo.com/39352252 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I believe you've hit the nail on the head, there, Franz. There are so many thousands of solo pieces for lute and similar instruments that have never been recorded, it is great to have them available for reference, even when the performance isn't of concert standard. I'm working my way through Rene Mesangeau's works and putting them onto SoundCloud as I record them. I did do a few Youtubings, but the video side was a hassle for me - especially when I was getting into double-digit takes - so I decided to content myself with sound only. As I go along, I'm finding that my standard is improving - recording technique as well as playing, so at some point I'll probably redo some of the ropier early recordings. Of course SoundCloud isn't as widely used as YouTube, but it is easy to search and home in on whatever interests you. It also seems to be the medium of choice for music industry professionals. Bill From: Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk To: Arto Wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi; Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 31 March 2012, 9:35 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity Dear Arto, I for my part am very grateful that you record these pieces, which are vary rarely heard. I much enjoy listening to them, often they are of great charme and gracefulness. And even if you say it's not perfect, it's an opportunity to get an idea how the pieces sounded in the first place. I am often struggling to find a lute or vihuela piece recorded on internet, so any recording of some quality is greatly appreciated. This is certainly a difference to piano music where the main repertoire and even much of more remote stuff can be found recorded by the giant performers time and again thus amateur recordings are not needed in these cases (though they are welcome with rarely recorded pieces). Best Franz __ From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Arto Wikla Sent: Sat 31.03.2012 06:03 To: 'Lute Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity The url should be [1][2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2wfeature=youtu.be Arto On 31/03/12 02:56, David Smith wrote: Utube claims it is a bad formed url. The Vimeo works fine. David -Original Message- From: [3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]mailto:[4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arto Wikla Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:48 PM To: 'Lute Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I continue my quantity postings... ;) Today I tried to tube L'Imperieuse, Allemande de Mouton (ms. Praha Kk 80). Far, very far, from perfect. And yes, I do know quite well quite a few places that should and could have been done better... Anyhow, this style of music - fragmentary, kind of vague here and there, short phrases, etc. - pleases me much! Vague as life! I'll try to become better in showing that also to others... Here is what I could do today: [1][3][5]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2w and [2][4][6]http://vimeo.com/39492200 And the Courante is coming... Sorry ;-) Best, Arto On 28/03/12 22:26, Arto Wikla wrote: Still more quantity to the tubes! I just tried to solve one puzzle of unmeasured preludes - this time Mouton's puzzle in g-minor. I think I found something, but I am very sure there is also much that I did not get: [3][5][7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?vIM2IYAh0Cg and the same also in [4][6][8]http://vimeo.com/39352252 Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [5][7][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [8][10]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2w 2. [9][11]http://vimeo.com/39492200 3. [10][12]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C3%8EM2IYAh0Cg 4. [11][13]http://vimeo.com/39352252 5. [12][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [15]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2wfeature=youtu.be 2. mailto:[16]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [17]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2w 4. [18]http://vimeo.com/39492200 5. [19]http://www.youtube.com/watch?vIM2IYAh0Cg 6. [20]http://vimeo.com/39352252 7. [21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. [22]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2w 9. [23]http://vimeo.com/39492200 10. [24]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C3%8EM2IYAh0Cg 11
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I continue my quantity postings... ;) Today I tried to tube L'Imperieuse, Allemande de Mouton (ms. Praha Kk 80). Far, very far, from perfect. And yes, I do know quite well quite a few places that should and could have been done better... Anyhow, this style of music - fragmentary, kind of vague here and there, short phrases, etc. - pleases me much! Vague as life! I'll try to become better in showing that also to others... Here is what I could do today: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2w and [2]http://vimeo.com/39492200 And the Courante is coming... Sorry ;-) Best, Arto On 28/03/12 22:26, Arto Wikla wrote: Still more quantity to the tubes! I just tried to solve one puzzle of unmeasured preludes - this time Mouton's puzzle in g-minor. I think I found something, but I am very sure there is also much that I did not get: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?vIM2IYAh0Cg and the same also in [4]http://vimeo.com/39352252 Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2w 2. http://vimeo.com/39492200 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C3%8EM2IYAh0Cg 4. http://vimeo.com/39352252 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Utube claims it is a bad formed url. The Vimeo works fine. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arto Wikla Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:48 PM To: 'Lute Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I continue my quantity postings... ;) Today I tried to tube L'Imperieuse, Allemande de Mouton (ms. Praha Kk 80). Far, very far, from perfect. And yes, I do know quite well quite a few places that should and could have been done better... Anyhow, this style of music - fragmentary, kind of vague here and there, short phrases, etc. - pleases me much! Vague as life! I'll try to become better in showing that also to others... Here is what I could do today: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2w and [2]http://vimeo.com/39492200 And the Courante is coming... Sorry ;-) Best, Arto On 28/03/12 22:26, Arto Wikla wrote: Still more quantity to the tubes! I just tried to solve one puzzle of unmeasured preludes - this time Mouton's puzzle in g-minor. I think I found something, but I am very sure there is also much that I did not get: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?vIM2IYAh0Cg and the same also in [4]http://vimeo.com/39352252 Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2w 2. http://vimeo.com/39492200 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C3%8EM2IYAh0Cg 4. http://vimeo.com/39352252 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
The url should be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B745bzjjG2wfeature=youtu.be Arto On 31/03/12 02:56, David Smith wrote: Utube claims it is a bad formed url. The Vimeo works fine. David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Arto Wikla Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:48 PM To: 'Lute Net' Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I continue my quantity postings... ;) Today I tried to tube L'Imperieuse, Allemande de Mouton (ms. Praha Kk 80). Far, very far, from perfect. And yes, I do know quite well quite a few places that should and could have been done better... Anyhow, this style of music - fragmentary, kind of vague here and there, short phrases, etc. - pleases me much! Vague as life! I'll try to become better in showing that also to others... Here is what I could do today: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.45bzjjG2w and [2]http://vimeo.com/39492200 And the Courante is coming... Sorry ;-) Best, Arto On 28/03/12 22:26, Arto Wikla wrote: Still more quantity to the tubes! I just tried to solve one puzzle of unmeasured preludes - this time Mouton's puzzle in g-minor. I think I found something, but I am very sure there is also much that I did not get: [3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?vIM2IYAh0Cg and the same also in [4]http://vimeo.com/39352252 Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C2%B745bzjjG2w 2. http://vimeo.com/39492200 3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v%C3%8EM2IYAh0Cg 4. http://vimeo.com/39352252 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Still more quantity to the tubes! I just tried to solve one puzzle of unmeasured preludes - this time Mouton's puzzle in g-minor. I think I found something, but I am very sure there is also much that I did not get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeM2IYAh0Cg and the same also in http://vimeo.com/39352252 Best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Agreed 200 percent ! Best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 25-03-2012, 16:12:23 == It's already a few years I watch videos on youtube of lutenists (and early guitarists). I must say the number of recordings tripled in just a few years but to be honest and not wanting to hurt anybody, some of the recordings are very wrong if not moronic at all... In between there are the real recordings which doesn't has a subtitle like: I was first reading the piece... or I just started to play the lute a few minutes ago and I thought to record it... or I was tired and the lute was miraculously out of tune... or my favorite: I tried a different interpretation... What do you think, is it helpful to fill the YT with this things or: lesser is better? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
The problem with ALL self-publishing: there are no editors. At the current increasing rate of low quality product uploaded onto the web (in all media), I wonder what the web will look like in 10 years. Will it even be possible to find quality? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Will it be possible to find anything at all in 10 years time.? Monica - Original Message - From: theoj89...@aol.com To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 3:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity The problem with ALL self-publishing: there are no editors. At the current increasing rate of low quality product uploaded onto the web (in all media), I wonder what the web will look like in 10 years. Will it even be possible to find quality? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Perhaps the question is why people are posting music on YT (and other). You are waiting only for top quality , like CD (oh I also know some bad CDs...) or is YT a place were people can express themselves, what ever is their level or abilities ? It is the same for all instruments, not just lute and early gutiars, look for videos of amateur pianist or classical guitarist, mandolin and so... Some people play for their friend and family, for their own pleasure, for making themselves friends, for their ego (principal reason I guess). Where is the problem ? Should it be a censure ? Should only graduate people from the best school be authorized to post ? Or is it a free place ? And you can choose to listen, like, favorite some and not others. In fact for my sake I'm quite happy many people take the lute, because then more people heard about, come to the concerts, buy the CDs, buy a lute, take lessons. And from time to time I find a new lutenist playing so well that I'm inspired by (last one for me was Philippe Cuny and I'm very glad he start posting). Ok there is good and bad, lets take the good and ignore the bad. ;-) Val (I'm afraid many would send me on the bad side, but in fact, I don't care...) -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de hera caius Envoyé : dimanche 25 mars 2012 16:16 À : Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Quality vs Quantity It's already a few years I watch videos on youtube of lutenists (and early guitarists). I must say the number of recordings tripled in just a few years but to be honest and not wanting to hurt anybody, some of the recordings are very wrong if not moronic at all... In between there are the real recordings which doesn't has a subtitle like: I was first reading the piece... or I just started to play the lute a few minutes ago and I thought to record it... or I was tired and the lute was miraculously out of tune... or my favorite: I tried a different interpretation... What do you think, is it helpful to fill the YT with this things or: lesser is better? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I think Hera's point is worth addressing. As to when and why I publish pieces to youtube, I would say that - as a less than advanced player - I do work hard on a piece before publishing, and I record as many takes as seems reasonable to make sure I am recording the piece about as well as I can play it at that time. Also I try to make sure the sound quality is at least decent. A large part of the reason I record and publish is to motivate myself to work on a piece hard enough to feel I can 'present' it to someone else without embarrassment, and to do so under the pressure of recording. That being said, since I am practicing daily and trying to improve my playing, when I feel I have progressed with a piece beyond where I was when I published it to youtube, I will delete the old recording and make a new one. And, beyond having played the piece longer and knowing it better, the new one may be different in interpretation simply because my skill level has advanced enough t! o allow for a different interpretation. So, at what point should one feel he or she is ready to publish something to youtube? There is a vast skill level between professional, or advanced amateur, and beginner. I wouldn't attempt to proscribe, and think we ultimately must leave that decision up to the individual player. It is our option to not watch, or to make a comment which includes constructive criticism. Ned On Mar 25, 2012, at 10:12 AM, hera caius wrote: It's already a few years I watch videos on youtube of lutenists (and early guitarists). I must say the number of recordings tripled in just a few years but to be honest and not wanting to hurt anybody, some of the recordings are very wrong if not moronic at all... In between there are the real recordings which doesn't has a subtitle like: I was first reading the piece... or I just started to play the lute a few minutes ago and I thought to record it... or I was tired and the lute was miraculously out of tune... or my favorite: I tried a different interpretation... What do you think, is it helpful to fill the YT with this things or: lesser is better? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I rather agree with Valéry. In not quite so many words. RT From: Sauvage Valéry sauvag...@orange.fr To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:51 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity Perhaps the question is why people are posting music on YT (and other). You are waiting only for top quality , like CD (oh I also know some bad CDs...) or is YT a place were people can express themselves, what ever is their level or abilities ? It is the same for all instruments, not just lute and early gutiars, look for videos of amateur pianist or classical guitarist, mandolin and so... Some people play for their friend and family, for their own pleasure, for making themselves friends, for their ego (principal reason I guess). Where is the problem ? Should it be a censure ? Should only graduate people from the best school be authorized to post ? Or is it a free place ? And you can choose to listen, like, favorite some and not others. In fact for my sake I'm quite happy many people take the lute, because then more people heard about, come to the concerts, buy the CDs, buy a lute, take lessons. And from time to time I find a new lutenist playing so well that I'm inspired by (last one for me was Philippe Cuny and I'm very glad he start posting). Ok there is good and bad, lets take the good and ignore the bad. ;-) Val (I'm afraid many would send me on the bad side, but in fact, I don't care...) -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de hera caius Envoyé : dimanche 25 mars 2012 16:16 À : Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Quality vs Quantity It's already a few years I watch videos on youtube of lutenists (and early guitarists). I must say the number of recordings tripled in just a few years but to be honest and not wanting to hurt anybody, some of the recordings are very wrong if not moronic at all... In between there are the real recordings which doesn't has a subtitle like: I was first reading the piece... or I just started to play the lute a few minutes ago and I thought to record it... or I was tired and the lute was miraculously out of tune... or my favorite: I tried a different interpretation... What do you think, is it helpful to fill the YT with this things or: lesser is better? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Example: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY As I watch it several times...more and more it became strange and I try to understand... P.S.This is one of my favorites -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Could it be that this is a joke? That in his straight faced, deadpan manner, he's putting us on? Ned On Mar 25, 2012, at 11:22 AM, hera caius wrote: Example: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY As I watch it several times...more and more it became strange and I try to understand... P.S.This is one of my favorites -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I'm with Valery and Ned on this one. Different people are offended by different things - Some hate beginners' hesitancy, mistakes or poor interpretation; Others (myself included) shudder when inauthentic technique is used, no matter how fine the performance. Even subtly inauthentic technique (like thumb-inside for baroque lute, or pinky too far from the bridge) can cause the more sensitive souls among us to take to a darkened room and suck our thumbs. The great thing is that it's easy to press the 'Stop' button as soon as you realise it's going to bother you. On the plus side, beginners and improvers can get helpful feedback from other musicians. Used this way, it's like a rather chaotic global music school - but still much better than working in isolation. Anyway, like it or not, it's something we have to live with. Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Oh, here the case is clear... Make money... (with advertising) ;-) V; -Message d'origine- De : lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] De la part de hera caius Envoyé : dimanche 25 mars 2012 17:23 À : Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity Example: [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY As I watch it several times...more and more it became strange and I try to understand... P.S.This is one of my favorites -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I already can't find my glasses half the time. On Mar 25, 2012, at 7:43 AM, Monica Hall wrote: Will it be possible to find anything at all in 10 years time.? Ed Durbrow In Grass Valley, CA at the moment tel. 530 263 8721 Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow Homepage: http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I think you have to think of it as open mic night. For myself, I enjoy open mic night. Ed Durbrow In Grass Valley, CA at the moment tel. 530 263 8721 Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow Homepage: http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Lute karaoke would be good! From: Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp To: LuteNet list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 25 March 2012, 17:20 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I think you have to think of it as open mic night. For myself, I enjoy open mic night. Ed Durbrow In Grass Valley, CA at the moment tel. 530 263 8721 Youtube channel: [1]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow Homepage: [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
On Mar 25, 2012, at 9:09 AM, William Samson wrote: Even subtly inauthentic technique (like thumb-inside for baroque lute, or pinky too far from the bridge) can cause the more sensitive souls among us to take to a darkened room and suck our thumbs. Unless you can show some proof that no lute player in the 1700's ever played with thumb inside the fingers and there was only one acceptable right-hand location, your thumb is taking some unnecessary abuse. Of course, your thumb may enjoy getting sucked, but that's really none of my business. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I have the impression that he is serious as many many people on the net showing their skills... --- On Sun, 3/25/12, mathias.roe...@t-online.de mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, March 25, 2012, 7:23 PM Example: [1][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY As I watch it several times...more and more it became strange and I try to understand... P.S.This is one of my favorites But, hey, he is making fun of it, isn't he? I take it to be comedy. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Hi all! Well this has been recorded about 30 minutes ago just for fun: [1]http://youtu.be/JajT1g-yhHs Ah yes I play ren guitar only for few days. I'd finished it this week :) Attention! Not authentic technique and poor quality. But if someone like it I'll be glad. Anyway it's a great fun for me to play and to share theese little vids. Best wishes, Eugene. -- References 1. http://youtu.be/JajT1g-yhHs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I do get a bit tired of people who look down their nose at anything that doesn't meet their exalted standards. It's worth noting that, to the extent that we are concerned about HIP, a lot of historical performance was in fact by amateurs of varying degrees of ability and training. If we want to be historically informed listeners, we need to be tolerant of performers that aren't quite up to the level of Paul or Nigel (or even within a light year or two). Even Paul and Nigel aren't quite up to that level if you compare live performance to a highly produced recording. I think the real problem with YT is not so much one of quality as of expectations. I enjoy dinner with friends just as much (if not more) than I do dinner at Le Gourmand, although the quality of the food is vastly superior at Le Gourmand; I have a different set of expectations for the two. The real problem with YT isn't so much the highly variable quality but that it's hard to know what to expect unless you happen to know the performer. That's not to say that everything on YT is worth watching (far from it) but still... (FWIW, Le Gourmand is a real restaurant, one of Seattle's finest, but we keep it a secret since it has only a few tables). Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Smith Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:18 AM To: 'hera caius'; Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I have to admit as someone that was considering posting my poor attempts on youtube I find this a somewhat chilling set of observations. I have to admit that my motivations are purely selfish - looking for support in my feeble attempts to learn my instruments, showing off the instruments (certainly not my playing), and motivation to perfect something well enough to be willing to share it. I agree there is much on the web that is worthless and uninteresting. As a professional performance platform it is poor. As a community square where you can hear all kinds of music and their performance it is pretty nice (especially for us in a region of the world that is not full of live early music performance - Oregon can be somewhat of a wasteland). I am somewhat embarrassed that the performer of the Expert Baroque Lute went to University of Portland (at least according to his notes). Regards David -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of hera caius Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 9:28 AM To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I have the impression that he is serious as many many people on the net showing their skills... --- On Sun, 3/25/12, mathias.roe...@t-online.de mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: mathias.roe...@t-online.de mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, March 25, 2012, 7:23 PM Example: [1][1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY As I watch it several times...more and more it became strange and I try to understand... P.S.This is one of my favorites But, hey, he is making fun of it, isn't he? I take it to be comedy. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
AHA Typical blogers attitude...just a few replies and we have already the reality distorted... Can't be more simple... WARNING: READ CAREFULLY AND ONLY THAN REPLY!!! --- On Sun, 3/25/12, Guy Smith guy_m_sm...@comcast.net wrote: From: Guy Smith guy_m_sm...@comcast.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity To: 'David Smith' d...@dolcesfogato.com, 'hera caius' caiush2...@yahoo.com, Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, March 25, 2012, 9:00 PM I do get a bit tired of people who look down their nose at anything that doesn't meet their exalted standards. It's worth noting that, to the extent that we are concerned about HIP, a lot of historical performance was in fact by amateurs of varying degrees of ability and training. If we want to be historically informed listeners, we need to be tolerant of performers that aren't quite up to the level of Paul or Nigel (or even within a light year or two). Even Paul and Nigel aren't quite up to that level if you compare live performance to a highly produced recording. I think the real problem with YT is not so much one of quality as of expectations. I enjoy dinner with friends just as much (if not more) than I do dinner at Le Gourmand, although the quality of the food is vastly superior at Le Gourmand; I have a different set of expectations for the two. The real problem with YT isn't so much the highly variable quality but that it's hard to know what to expect unless you happen to know the performer. That's not to say that everything on YT is worth watching (far from it) but still... (FWIW, Le Gourmand is a real restaurant, one of Seattle's finest, but we keep it a secret since it has only a few tables). Guy -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of David Smith Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 10:18 AM To: 'hera caius'; [3]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I have to admit as someone that was considering posting my poor attempts on youtube I find this a somewhat chilling set of observations. I have to admit that my motivations are purely selfish - looking for support in my feeble attempts to learn my instruments, showing off the instruments (certainly not my playing), and motivation to perfect something well enough to be willing to share it. I agree there is much on the web that is worthless and uninteresting. As a professional performance platform it is poor. As a community square where you can hear all kinds of music and their performance it is pretty nice (especially for us in a region of the world that is not full of live early music performance - Oregon can be somewhat of a wasteland). I am somewhat embarrassed that the performer of the Expert Baroque Lute went to University of Portland (at least according to his notes). Regards David -Original Message- From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of hera caius Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 9:28 AM To: [6]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I have the impression that he is serious as many many people on the net showing their skills... --- On Sun, 3/25/12, [7]mathias.roe...@t-online.de [8]mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: From: [9]mathias.roe...@t-online.de [10]mathias.roe...@t-online.de Subject: [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity To: [11]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, March 25, 2012, 7:23 PM Example: [1][1][12]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY As I watch it several times...more and more it became strange and I try to understand... P.S.This is one of my favorites But, hey, he is making fun of it, isn't he? I take it to be comedy. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at [2][13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [14]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFSbnTIRxqY 2. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mathias.roe...@t-online.de 8. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mathias.roe...@t-online.de 9. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mathias.roe...@t-online.de 10. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=mathias.roe...@t-online.de 11. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=Lute
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Congratulations on your guitar, and do keep sharing. Ned On Mar 25, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Eugene Kurenko wrote: Hi all! Well this has been recorded about 30 minutes ago just for fun: [1]http://youtu.be/JajT1g-yhHs Ah yes I play ren guitar only for few days. I'd finished it this week :) Attention! Not authentic technique and poor quality. But if someone like it I'll be glad. Anyway it's a great fun for me to play and to share theese little vids. Best wishes, Eugene. -- References 1. http://youtu.be/JajT1g-yhHs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Thanks a lot Edward! I'll try do my best for further sharing. 2012/3/25 Edward Mast [1]nedma...@aol.com Congratulations on your guitar, and do keep sharing. Ned On Mar 25, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Eugene Kurenko wrote: Hi all! Well this has been recorded about 30 minutes ago just for fun: [1][2]http://youtu.be/JajT1g-yhHs Ah yes I play ren guitar only for few days. I'd finished it this week :) Attention! Not authentic technique and poor quality. But if someone like it I'll be glad. Anyway it's a great fun for me to play and to share theese little vids. Best wishes, Eugene. -- References 1. [3]http://youtu.be/JajT1g-yhHs To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:nedma...@aol.com 2. http://youtu.be/JajT1g-yhHs 3. http://youtu.be/JajT1g-yhHs 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
In response to Bill (whose postings I always enjoy very much, by the way) let me try to recall the essence of a statement I ran across in my research some time ago. It went something like this: . . .and let it be noted, dear sirs, that all the good advices of all the best teachers shall mean little if the results give not pleasure to the ear and soul of the player. For music is, and must needs be, a most beneficial means of lifting the hearts of those who would play it. And for this effect to be most pronounced, 'tis the duty of the player to draw the sound from his instrument that most pleaseth his ear, so that his soul may be uplifted. And verily, then, if he findeth that this most pleasing sound comes forth from his instrument (lute) when he plucks the strings close to the bridge, so let him plucketh; but if he finds this most pleasing sound to come forth when he plucks the strings closer to the rose, so, again, let him plucketh there. And in the very same manner, let him find how his instrument responds to his hand when he extends his thumb out beyond the fingers, and playeth it in that manner if the sound is pleaseth to the ear beyond measure. If, howsoev! er, he findeth that by extending his fingers beyond the thumb, the sound issues forth in the most excellent and pleasurable manner, then let him adopt this manner of playing; for it is to be considered beyond dispute that for music to pleaseth and uplift the soul, it must in the first event, pleaseth and uplift the soul of the player. Ned On Mar 25, 2012, at 12:09 PM, William Samson wrote: I'm with Valery and Ned on this one. Different people are offended by different things - Some hate beginners' hesitancy, mistakes or poor interpretation; Others (myself included) shudder when inauthentic technique is used, no matter how fine the performance. Even subtly inauthentic technique (like thumb-inside for baroque lute, or pinky too far from the bridge) can cause the more sensitive souls among us to take to a darkened room and suck our thumbs. The great thing is that it's easy to press the 'Stop' button as soon as you realise it's going to bother you. On the plus side, beginners and improvers can get helpful feedback from other musicians. Used this way, it's like a rather chaotic global music school - but still much better than working in isolation. Anyway, like it or not, it's something we have to live with. Bill -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
. . .and let it be noted, dear sirs, that all the good advices of all the best teachers shall mean little if the results give not pleasure to the ear and soul of the player. For music is, and must needs be, a most beneficial means of lifting the hearts of those who would play it. And for this effect to be most pronounced, 'tis the duty of the player to draw the sound from his instrument that most pleaseth his ear, so that his soul may be uplifted. And verily, then, if he findeth that this most pleasing sound comes forth from his instrument (lute) when he plucks the strings close to the bridge, so let him plucketh; but if he finds this most pleasing sound to come forth when he plucks the strings closer to the rose, so, again, let him plucketh there. And in the very same manner, let him find how his instrument responds to his hand when he extends his thumb out beyond the fingers, and playeth it in that manner if the sound is pleaseth to the ear beyond measure. If, howsoev! er, he findeth that by extending his fingers beyond the thumb, the sound issues forth in the most excellent and pleasurable manner, then let him adopt this manner of playing; for it is to be considered beyond dispute that for music to pleaseth and uplift the soul, it must in the first event, pleaseth and uplift the soul of the player. No better or worse in matters of taste. Do as you please. And I'm glad my keyboard has a delete button (no offense intended). Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I love YouTube. I love watching the Good the Bad and the Ugly. I hardly ever finish a clip, but the suggestions take me places I never dreamed of. I love watching 13 years old girls singing off-key to their own approximations of guitar playing and being both ashamed and proud of their efforts at the same time. I love 40+ amateurs having a their go at playing lute with an equal mixture shame and of pride. Both are making music and it doesn't get more real than this. It's a stage, it's a community, it's open mic night, it's friends sharing their efforts. And all of that in the same place as the real heroes, not to mention old TV-series, all the pop songs you were sure you forgot, lessons in anything you ever wanted to learn. You want to see Victor Wooten go over the top in a 10 minute bass guitar solo, breaking a string in the middle but going on as if nothing happend? Want to see Nigel North or Anthony Bailes play their polished cd recordings? Want to see Oscar Peterson or Julian Bream live? For that matter, want to see any of your heroes live in any concert in the last 40-odd years? Go to YouTube; it's all there. I make guitar lessons for my pupils on YouTube. I know I am far form perfect, but I do hope it will at least induce them to share their own efforts with the world. YouTube is about sharing, not about perfection. If you want perfection, buy a cd and you know what you will get. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I love YouTube. I love watching the Good the Bad and the Ugly. Me too. I'm not always sure quite why some people who aren't very good want to put their videos up there, but I rather enjoy watching people of all abilities, and it is a way for me to connect with some musical acquaintances across the globe who I'll otherwise never get to hear play. And if any purists are around whenever I play anything, I usually ask them to leave the room first, because otherwise the performance will be unsatisfactory for *both* of us... jt -- Templeman Consulting Limited IT Consulting and Training To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
I once did a Google images search for thumb in, thumb over and thumb under, using every keyword and artists name I could think of and was really amazed at how many playing positions there are--in fact, the only really inauthentic way to play is for a large group of people to follow a rule. dt On Mar 25, 2012, at 9:09 AM, William Samson wrote: Even subtly inauthentic technique (like thumb-inside for baroque lute, or pinky too far from the bridge) can cause the more sensitive souls among us to take to a darkened room and suck our thumbs. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
The problem with ALL self-publishing: there are no editors. At the current increasing rate of low quality product uploaded onto the web (in all media), I wonder what the web will look like in 10 years. Will it even be possible to find quality? Agreed, although I think the lute videos are much higher quality than many others. I pity young people who are trying to sift through it all (am I sounding OLD, or what?). How can one develop a filter for what is good art, or music, or film, or TV, when there is so much junk to wade through? Tom To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
Yes and no, I think, David. Glenn Gould edited as much or as more than any musician, I believe, but he was the real thing. And there are companies recording classical music (Telarc comes to mind) that - I'm reasonably sure - use minimal if any compression. And I'm reminded of the Water Lily recording of the Mahler 5th with the Saint Petersburg Philharmonic recorded with single pair of microphones arranged in Blumlein configuration, and no compression. One of the most natural orchestral recordings one could hear, but the critics hated it because if the volume was set so that the loudest sections weren't too loud, the soft sections were too soft. No compression. But on the issue of serious amateurs, doesn't the digital medium afford them the opportunity to record themselves in very good sound without hiring a studio or paying many thousands for equipment? I've certainly heard more than one you tube recording that actually sounds more natural than many professionally produced CDs. I'm wondering if - actually hoping that - this situation may encourage professional players to abandon over produced and processed recordings in favor of more natural ones. Ones less edited and less processed. I applaud you for doing this yourself. Ned On Mar 25, 2012, at 7:42 PM, David Tayler wrote: CDs are fake; YouTube is relatively real (with caveats) My take on this, FWIW, is that CDs do tremendous harm to the music world. The editing, the processing, the compression, that is all bad enough. But the real evil is that it prevents the serious amateur from taking the next steps, by creating an imaginary hurdle that is too high. CDs push people out of the talent pool before they even start. Oh, so you want to learn to run? Come back when you can run a ten second mile. Also, really talented people who are looking for a real challenge, can now try to hit a home run without being able to walk to the 360 foot centerfield wall and drop the ball over. They can climb the mountain without a magical transporter beam. They will go for it. We need a bigger base to keep music, early music, classical music afloat. And here it comes. People should feel free to share whatever they want on the internet, and the viewers will watch, or not watch. More videos means a larger audience, which will set the stage for the next generation of players drawn from outside the traditional, tiny circles of Early Music. Makers of CDs--and I number myself among them--will decide whether they want to show people what they really sound like, and be held up to the standard of their recorded works. I am now much more comfortable releasing material that has a few mistakes in it. Now, anything I do is compared to other real videos, instead of fake CDs with 2,000 edits. Millions--millions--of people who have never seen a lute before are joining us on our musical adventure. I have to believe, I hope, that one of the reasons that they like it, and are watching in record numbers, is because they prefer a real apple to a plastic one, real cheese to Velveeta, and the sound of wood and strings instead of compression, EQ and reverb. Quality vs Quantity? The quality is there; and it will rapidly get even better. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
You raise some valid points, David. I agree that editing in the process of making CDs, going into 1000 edits, IS fake. It's not a performance. However, I don't think that video is the answer. How can we keep the bar high? Personally, I think video, which came to the fore in the early '1980's, was the WORST thing that ever happened to popular music. It shifted the focus from sound to images. Music became secondary. I have actually had people say to me, Well the song's not all that great, BUT YOU SHOULD SEE THE VIDEO! Now, everybody with GarageBand thinks they'll be the next rock star, and everybody with a camcorder thinks they'll be the next viral youtube star. There are no producers to say, Not good enough, lads (or lasses). Go back and polish it some more. Serious amateurs have no excuses: the technology is astoundingly cheap and leaps and bounds above what the Beatles had to use. What serious amateurs DON'T have is a producer and record label money and marketing power to help them get to the next level. I don't think CDs push people out of the talent pool. No, I think they contribute to the already overwhelming amount of bad recordings that exist because everybody thinks they're a recording tech because they have a computer and a condenser microphone from Musician's Friend. More mediocre videos will simply translate over time to a lot more mediocre videos. Good video is over 90% audio... I would agree that you are right: there IS the opportunity for artists to work to the highest possible standard and hit a homerun with their video. But, will anybody be able to sift it out and watch it? Hopefully artists WILL continue to pursue a grand slam. Like you, I retain hope that people will find quality live performance of lute and other early music, and see how cool it really is. It's amazing what one can find on YouTube. But there's even another component: unless you're an audiophile, why buy music when you can hear and watch it on YouTube for free? We live in a very strange world! All the best, Tom CDs are fake; YouTube is relatively real (with caveats) My take on this, FWIW, is that CDs do tremendous harm to the music world. The editing, the processing, the compression, that is all bad enough. But the real evil is that it prevents the serious amateur from taking the next steps, by creating an imaginary hurdle that is too high. CDs push people out of the talent pool before they even start. Oh, so you want to learn to run? Come back when you can run a ten second mile. Also, really talented people who are looking for a real challenge, can now try to hit a home run without being able to walk to the 360 foot centerfield wall and drop the ball over. They can climb the mountain without a magical transporter beam. They will go for it. We need a bigger base to keep music, early music, classical music afloat. And here it comes. People should feel free to share whatever they want on the internet, and the viewers will watch, or not watch. More videos means a larger audience, which will set the stage for the next generation of players drawn from outside the traditional, tiny circles of Early Music. Makers of CDs--and I number myself among them--will decide whether they want to show people what they really sound like, and be held up to the standard of their recorded works. I am now much more comfortable releasing material that has a few mistakes in it. Now, anything I do is compared to other real videos, instead of fake CDs with 2,000 edits. Millions--millions--of people who have never seen a lute before are joining us on our musical adventure. I have to believe, I hope, that one of the reasons that they like it, and are watching in record numbers, is because they prefer a real apple to a plastic one, real cheese to Velveeta, and the sound of wood and strings instead of compression, EQ and reverb. Quality vs Quantity? The quality is there; and it will rapidly get even better. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity
-Message d'origine- Objet : [LUTE] Re: Quality vs Quantity I love watching the Good the Bad and the Ugly. Love this song too, by the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain... Lol !!! V. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
