[LUTE] Re: Respighi and lute sources
Indeed. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Christopher Stetson Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2016 3:10 PM To: Andreas Schlegel Cc: lute list Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi and lute sources Hello, Andreas and all. Paul O'Dette has already done the research: [1]http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ancient-airs-and-dances-16th-century -songs-dances-for-lute-paul-odette/8650158 I don't have the CD at hand, but I believe the liner notes contain all the sources. It's also quite a nice recording, though now getting old. Best to all, Chris. On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 2:28 PM, Andreas Schlegel <[2]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote: Dear collected wisdom, i was asked by a friend about the exact sources to the three Respighi-suites [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances Some are easily to find (f.ex. Laura soave) - but others are quite difficult (f.ex. the Siciliana which is not in the collected works of Santino Garsi, ed. by Dieter Kirsch). Has somebody a list from the exact sources (with page/folio number)? Thanks a lot for any support! Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ancient-airs-and-dances-16th-century-songs-dances-for-lute-paul-odette/8650158 2. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi and Lute Sources
Dear Andreas Schlegel, (rev. 6/26) Prego, All of Respighi's pieces were orchestrated from various transcriptions from lute tablature by Oscar Chilesotti. As you requested. here are the originals from which O.C. worked. His transcriptions are also cited. I wonder if Paul played from the tablature or the transcriptions. His first CD was from the Chilesotti Codice Lauten-Buch. === The Original Sources for Respighi's Antiche Arie e Danse per Liuto Arthur J. Ness (2013) I. Suite (1917) 1. Simon Molinaro, "Ballo detto il Conte Orlande," Intavolatura di lauto ... Libro Primo (Venice: Amadino, 1599; Rpt. Florence, SPES,1978), p. 8. Respighi does not use the"Saltarello del preditto ballo" as the contrasting middle piece, but rather repeats the ballo in the minor mode (BalloMajor/BalloMinor/BalloMajor). Lautenspieler,* p. 139. 2a. Vincenzo Galilei,"Polymnia Gagliarda," Libro d'intavolatura di leuto (1584), Florence, Biblioteca nazionale centrale, Fondo anteriori a Galilei 6 (Facs. Florence, SPES, 1992), p. 189. 2b. The "Italiana" from the Lauten-Buch,* No. 59, alternates (Polymnia/Italiana/Polymnia) with the Gagliarda, but is not by Galilei, as some have claimed in cheap guitar editions. The pieces were conceived 820 km apart. The piece is a Dudelsack, the ostinato represents the drone and the top line, the chanter. Several similar pieces in Fuhrmann's tablature. 3. Villanella: "Orlando fa'che ti recordi," Lauten-Buch, No. 50. One of the most beautiful pieces of the Renaissance. 4. Passamezzo bonissimo, Lauten-Buch, No. 24 (continued as No. 66). 5. Mascherada (Trommeten Tanz), Lauten-Buch, No. 43. II. Suite (1923) 1. Fabritio Caroso,"Laura suave: Balletto con Gagliarda, Saltarello e Canario," NobilitA di Dames (Venice, 1600, 1605; Rpt Bologna, Forni, 1970), p. 111. In Chilesotti, ed., Danze del secolo XVI (Milan 1884?; Forni 1969), pp. 22-5. 2. Jean-Baptiste Besard, "Bransles de Village" for lute duet from Novus Partus: Isagoge (Augsburg, 1617; Rpt Geneva: Minkoff, 1983). Lautenspieler, 220 3. Incertis autoris. "Campagnae Parisiesis," Besard 1617. Lautenspieler, 226. 4. Antoine BoA<
[LUTE] Re: Respighi and lute sources
The Molinaro is pretty easy for me. ~45 years ago I acquired a copy of the complete "Intavolatura Di Liuto" by Molinari. It is 115 pages of music all transcribed to guitar notation by Giuseppe Gullino and Piero Jahier in 1963. I have put "Il Conte Orlando in a Dropbox folder for anyone to help themselves. It is a delight to play-just pretend you are playing an 8 string guitar and everything falls in place nicely. I would love to get the source for Laura Soave, or any of the others, because the Molinari is all I have. [1]https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1w2zw4b2gv353s6/AACH4aNgoZSVf4Z1N4acFu4ta ?dl=0 A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer EMail: [2]john.mardi...@asu.edu Cell: [3]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs) But don't call the labI won't be there! On Jun 25, 2016, at 12:09 PM, Christopher Stetson <[4]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote: Hello, Andreas and all. Paul O'Dette has already done the research: [1][5]http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ancient-airs-and-dances-16th-ce ntury -songs-dances-for-lute-paul-odette/8650158 I don't have the CD at hand, but I believe the liner notes contain all the sources. It's also quite a nice recording, though now getting old. Best to all, Chris. On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 2:28 PM, Andreas Schlegel <[2][6]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote: Dear collected wisdom, i was asked by a friend about the exact sources to the three Respighi-suites [3][7]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances Some are easily to find (f.ex. Laura soave) - but others are quite difficult (f.ex. the Siciliana which is not in the collected works of Santino Garsi, ed. by Dieter Kirsch). Has somebody a list from the exact sources (with page/folio number)? Thanks a lot for any support! Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at [4][8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9]http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ancient-airs-and-dances-16th-century -songs-dances-for-lute-paul-odette/8650158 2. [10]mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 3. [11]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances 4. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html References 1. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1w2zw4b2gv353s6/AACH4aNgoZSVf4Z1N4acFu4ta?dl=0 2. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu 3. tel:408-921-3253 4. mailto:christophertstet...@gmail.com 5. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ancient-airs-and-dances-16th-century 6. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ancient-airs-and-dances-16th-century-songs-dances-for-lute-paul-odette/8650158 10. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances 12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi and lute sources
Hello, Andreas and all. Paul O'Dette has already done the research: [1]http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ancient-airs-and-dances-16th-century -songs-dances-for-lute-paul-odette/8650158 I don't have the CD at hand, but I believe the liner notes contain all the sources. It's also quite a nice recording, though now getting old. Best to all, Chris. On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 2:28 PM, Andreas Schlegel <[2]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote: Dear collected wisdom, i was asked by a friend about the exact sources to the three Respighi-suites [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances Some are easily to find (f.ex. Laura soave) - but others are quite difficult (f.ex. the Siciliana which is not in the collected works of Santino Garsi, ed. by Dieter Kirsch). Has somebody a list from the exact sources (with page/folio number)? Thanks a lot for any support! Andreas To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ancient-airs-and-dances-16th-century-songs-dances-for-lute-paul-odette/8650158 2. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Airs_and_Dances 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Respighi/the birds/Gallot
Am 10.01.2013 18:09, schrieb Roland Hayes: Dear Collective Wisdom: Does anyone know which Gallot piece was used for the dove by Respighi as part of The Birds? Thanks in advance. r Dear Roland, thank you for bringing it to our attention! I can't help loving the stuff! How did he get to know Gallot's music? As for the sources have a look here: http://mss.slweiss.de/index.php?lang=deuid=2type=mssst=0title=pigkey=msnam=comp=Gallot Ornithological greetings Bernd To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Respighi/the birds/Gallot
Hello Roland, this seems to be Courante, La pigeonne (Jacques Gallot, CLFGal N°14) fis-moll- GallPiec / 35 Yes, now I even found the word in dict.leo.org: La pigeonne seems to mean female dove. Respighi didn't change the key - it is still in f# minor, but slowed down the tempo a little bit, isn't it? Best regards Markus Am 10.01.2013 18:09, schrieb Roland Hayes: Dear Collective Wisdom: Does anyone know which Gallot piece was used for the dove by Respighi as part of The Birds? Thanks in advance. r -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
On Friday 26 September 2008 17:16, Arthur Ness rattled on the keyboard: - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | POssibly because he doesn't want to quoted, for political reasons. | The same ones another (the same?) lutenist isn't talking about the | Melchiorre Chiesa archlute Ms. | Same situation. | RT ooo You can imagine that there might be some further developments in Italy about which we are unaware. Politics might very well be involved in the selection of an editor and publisher for a facsimile edition, or maybe a facsimile edition with a new (and better) transcription to replace Chilesotti's. There would be big bucks in such an edition. Every music library in the world would buy a copy, just for starters. Big bucks? Even when libraries acquire a copy it's not big bucks. Printing facsimile editions is for a small group of publishers who love to publish a beautiful book, they never have big money in mind. This is even valid for expensive editions of Mrs Minkoff. Taco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 3:53 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | On Friday 26 September 2008 17:16, Arthur Ness rattled on the keyboard: | - Original Message - | From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arthur Ness | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu | Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:26 AM | Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | | | POssibly because he doesn't want to quoted, for political reasons. | | The same ones another (the same?) lutenist isn't talking about the | | Melchiorre Chiesa archlute Ms. | | Same situation. | | RT | | ooo | You can imagine that there might be some further developments in Italy | about which we are unaware. Politics might very well be involved in the | selection of an editor and publisher for a facsimile edition, or maybe a | facsimile edition with a new (and better) transcription to replace | Chilesotti's. There would be big bucks in such an edition. Every music | library in the world would buy a copy, just for starters. | | Big bucks? Even when libraries acquire a copy it's not big bucks. Printing | facsimile editions is for a small group of publishers who love to publish a | beautiful book, they never have big money in mind. This is even valid for | expensive editions of Mrs Minkoff. | Taco o You may be entirely correct, Taco. I was thinking of something with a critical edition with transcrtions. And identfication of the various composers (e.g., Vecchi) and intabularos (e.g., Denss) represented, a correct spelling of the titles, and issued by a firm like A-R Editions. But even then, the numbers don;t get too highh. For Suzzane Court's A-R Edition of the Terzi lute fantasias, the World Catslogue lists 361 libraries owning a copy. That's not too good. But the Chilesotti name might pull in more. I couldn't get a count of the origoinal edition and Forni reprint volume, unless I went through 18 entries. But two of the 18 noted about 80 libraries with copies. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is CSchubert's Symphony No. 3 in D, D. 200 performed by the Orchestra della Svizzera Italiana, Alain Lombard, conductor. To download, click on the CML link here http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ My Web Page: Scores http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ Other Matters: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ === To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 5:53 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | Arthur, | | --- Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | ConcerTINO alla Mariachi for | Guitar and Orchestra. In his edition and in order | to win the argument | with the Segovia biographer, the guitarist had | upgraded the work from | Concertino to Concerto.g That's fraud, too, | because it would | artificially increase sales. | | Interesting. I don't know of this work at all. | This proves the point that such trickery wastes | valuable time and effort. You had to take the time to | track down the piece only to find that someone had | pulled a bait and switch with the title. AJNI was in that corner of the library to look at something else. So I took a look. It such a trivial matter anyway. Why get in a harangue about whether an obscure composer (Rafael Adame) wrote the first 20th-century guitar concerto, or a recognized master (Castelnuovo-Tedesco), whose concerto is played over and over. So I just sensed something was fishy, and decided to check it out.g | But, just to play devil's advocate, how did this | Mexican work called a concertino differ from a full | concerto? Was this piece simply a shorter concerto or | perhaps written for reduced orchestral forces? Lots | of pieces go by different names. AJNAdame probably chose the proper title, Concertino 3^o [=Terzo] Estilo Mariache. It uses mestizo-like thematic ideas, which the composer may have not considered serious enough to use in a full-blown concerto. The work is short, and like many concertinos, which have several short movements played without pause, the Adame concertino has three movements, the second and third joined. AJNThere was also at the time, as Slonmisky explains in his book on music in Latin America, much discussion regarding the establishment of a national Mexican musical style. Part of the controversy was over whether it was appropriate to use mestizo melodies. Maybe Adame was trying to avoid involvement, and by using a concertino form, he could avoid the controversy by casting light musical ideas in a semi-serious form. He also composed a 'cello concertino that (iirc) is also described as estilo mariache. | Scarlatti called his | famous keyboard works essercizi even though we call | them sonatas today. AJNWell, it's the Pleyel/Haydn fraud on another level. For your senior recital what would you rather program, a sonata or an exercise? | Although they're not the same | beast as the Hammerklavier, we're still comfortable | with the sonata label. AJNWell, you like all of us realize the term had different meanings at different times. AJNIncidentally, sometimes it is said that the first use of the term sonata is in a lute book by Giacomo Gorzanis. Doesn't that make you proud? Too bad, because someone misread something, and it is not the case. But I can't recall what happened. It's in Newman's first book on the history of the sonata idea. I took a look just now to refresh my memory. AJNThe piece in question is in Gorzanis' first book (1561), Pass'e mezzo ditto La dura partita, and Padoana del ditto. Dances!! No mention of sonata anywhere. How strange. It's our friend again, whose work should have been submitted for peer review. OSCAR CHILESOTTI called the dances Sonata per Liuto in one of his books, _*Sulla Melodia populare del Cinquecento*_ (1899), and Gustave Reese and Newman in turn thought the title was original. AJNBy the way, Newman has a good chapter The Meaning of Sonata in his baroque volume. | Ditto Weiss's Sonatas | which we should probably call suites or partitas. AJNBut some and even many are a combination if French and Italian movements, so which do you call a given work. Do you count the notes and use partita if there are more notes in the Italian dances? That's silly, of course. I imagie it was Doug Smith who made the decision what to call the pieces. And it was not an easy decision to make, I am certain. | For | that matter, is Rodrigo's Fantasia para un | Gentilhombre for guitar and orchestra a concerto or a | fantasy? (Its pretty clearly just a five movement | concerto, I think.) AJNI'd go along with that. See the New Harvard Dictionary for some wisdom on fantasias.g | In other words - was the Mexican guitarist essentially | right that an earlier concerto existed even if tried | to solidify his point by changing the label to | something more formal? It was an American guitarist. Yes, a concerto-like concertino was earlier. I just find it amusing that he'd change the title to win a silly, nonsensical argument over such a trivial matter. I think the arguments grew so heated that there were threats of lawsuits. | Chris Arthur. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | Arthur, Hello Chris, | I'm curious about the lutenist who may not be | named as well. Please don't misunderstand me. I was told the name of the lutenist by several persons, and there was apparently no reason for confidentiality at that time (1997). We discussed the discovery freely at a table witt some 20 persons who attended the Francesco conference in Milan. I just forgot his name, since it really wasn't important. No one has questioned the lutenist's veracity then or now, or his ability to vouch for the authenticy of the manuscript shown him. No one, that is, except for Eugene and Matanya. | Trustworthy as this fellow probably | is, there have been bigger hoaxes before so we have to | remain sceptical until the lutenist's name comes out | or there is some verifiable publication. I see no reason to doubt the lutenist's word that he saw and recognized the manuscript. We now know that it was not destroyed in a fire. And if a facsimile or microfilm were to be published it would be a very easy matter to determine if the manuscript is genuine. One means would be with some special knowledge I gathered about the manuscript. I have had access to notes that were made directly from the manuscript in 1886, BEFORE it was sent from Munich to Berlin and sold to Chilesotti ca. 1890. For example, on page 99 is the famous poem Lauten schlagen und singen, and on page 107 is a strange Latin acrostic that can be read left to right and from top to bottom. Also on page 145 there is a Latin text about the qualities of women. Chilesotti was offended by it, and says so in his preface: Septem propietates Mulierem (women should be quiet in church, industious in the kitchen, ferocious in bed, etc.) Wilhem Tappert (d. about 1906), and who coorresponded with Chilesotti and who took the notes provides complete quotes of much of this marginalia. It's the sort of thing one often encounters in commonplace books of the time, especialy books belonging to students. As I indicated before, I find it very unlikely that anyone would try to make a counterfeit of the manuscript. It is just too time consuming and expensive. It is 250 pages in length, and written in that dreadful old German script, that even Germans can't decipher. In fact I just had an exchange with a colleague about reading a sentence in that script. My friend thinks a word refers to keyboard (klavier) and who ever scribble the little note wasn't aware the the book was not keyboard music but lute music. Well I read the word as klemme (glue) and that it is a bookbinder's remark that he glued a gathering of pages back into the binding. The note is important because it has a date which would assist in ascertaining which pieces were copied into the book in Germany, and which in Naples. And of course, our lutenist probably would have had nothing to do with a counterfeit manuscript, anyway. He just played from it. Among hoaxes (really frauds) is the common practice of putting the name of a popular composer on the music of an inferior one, for example, the Pleyel string quartets that were published under the name of Haydn. But some works have been identied as hoaxes, when they are genuine works by the named composer. That is the case of the famous Vitali Chaconne which has falsely been attributed to Ferdinand David, the famous 18th-century violin virtuoso. The original score with the name of Vitalino (son of the composer Vitali) is in a library in Dresden, and is available in facsimile edition. The composer's father was somewhat of a Charles Ives, and composed works with adventuresom harmonic relations. The son picked up some of these, when for example his harmonies move from B flat to D sharp major, suggesting to some observors a the harmonic vocabulary if a 19th-century composer! The 18th-century copyist has been identified with a music copyist employed at the Dresden court, and is known by name (Landsman or something like that). And speaking of the Ponce/Segovia hoaxes. there's the one about who composed the first guitar concerto of the 20th century. As if it matters. A guitarist got into a terrible harangue with one of Segovia's biographers. The guitarist, perhaps because he had been kicked out of a Segovia mastercass, had taken a particular dislike to the old maestro. He argued that Segovia was lying when he bragged to have commissioned the first guitar concerto of the 20th century. The first concerto, he said, was composed by a Mexican composer a few years before the Segovia commission. And that Segovia was lying because he was in Mexico City when the concerto was premiered, and may even have attended. Well the composer was a member of a group of Mexican experimental composers who wrote
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
David was a 19th-century, not 18th- century violin virtuoso. Sorry. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Arthur, --- Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ConcerTINO alla Mariachi for Guitar and Orchestra. In his edition and in order to win the argument with the Segovia biographer, the guitarist had upgraded the work from Concertino to Concerto.g That's fraud, too, because it would artificially increase sales. Interesting. I don't know of this work at all. This proves the point that such trickery wastes valuable time and effort. You had to take the time to track down the piece only to find that someone had pulled a bait and switch with the title. But, just to play devil's advocate, how did this Mexican work called a concertino differ from a full concerto? Was this piece simply a shorter concerto or perhaps written for reduced orchestral forces? Lots of pieces go by different names. Scarlatti called his famous keyboard works essercizi even though we call them sonatas today. Although they're not the same beast as the Hammerklavier, we're still comfortable with the sonata label. Ditto Weiss's Sonatas which we should probably call suites or paritas. For that matter, is Rodrigo's Fantasia para un Gentilhombre for guitar and orchestra a concerto or a fantasy? (Its pretty clearly just a five movement concerto, I think.) In other words - was the Mexican guitarist essentially right that an earlier concerto existed even if tried to solidify his point by changing the label to something more formal? Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, September 28, 2008 3:27 pm Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Please don't misunderstand me... No one has questioned the lutenist's veracity then or now, or his ability to vouch for the authenticy of the manuscript shown him. No one, that is, except for Eugene and Matanya. I could ask that you please not misunderstand me, but that seems to be completely fruitless at this point, Arthur. Most thinking people with the discipline to be able to have earned a PhD understand that there is a tremendous difference between saying that I have seen nothing that can be externally verified by the community at large and expressing doubt in anybody's veracity or calling anybody a liar. I clearly stated that I adhere to the former position; you continually equate that to the latter. There also is a tremendous difference between listing a number of hypotheticals and arguing that any one of them is fact in the absence of evidence. I am not interested in arguing in favor of a position I do not hold. Remember, this whole stupid affair came of a single naive sentence in reference to a topic in which I have nothing more than a trivial interest. You may now feel free to stop using my name in reference to this topic. Sincerely, Eugene -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
On Sep 28, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: He argued that Segovia was lying when he bragged to have commissioned the first guitar concerto of the 20th century. What was this concerto Segovia was supposed to have commissioned? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
The Ponce Concierto del Sur, which was not the first of the century either; Castelnuovo-Tedesco and Rodrigo finished theirs first. On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 8:18 PM, howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 28, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Arthur Ness wrote: He argued that Segovia was lying when he bragged to have commissioned the first guitar concerto of the 20th century. What was this concerto Segovia was supposed to have commissioned? -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
As a total outsider in this matter, I just wonder why the Italian living and breathing master lutenist is unnamed as of yet. Paul Pleijsier Op 26 sep 2008, om 04:24 heeft Arthur Ness het volgende geschreven: P.S. I should have posted this earlier. I found Eugene's accusations disturbing, and wanted to reply to them only after I had calmed down a bit. After all, the discovery of the manuscript for Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch was a major event for which we all should be cheering, and I felt the readers of this list would like to hear about it. To my chagrin Eugene charged that the discovery of the original manuscript is some kind of fraud. His allegations are wholly unjustified, often mean-spirited and false. ooo My word, Eugene! To equate some distant floating tree stump in a Scottish lake with a sighting of the mythical Nessie monster is hardly comparable to a master lutenist holding and playing from a 16th-century manuscript of lute music at a private function in northern Italy. The former is a fiction, the latter, a bona fide. Furthermore, I find it unfortunate that you would misrepresent the facts with your perversion of the word rumor. Consult your dictionary for the correct meaning and usage of the word rumor and you will discover that a rumor is a statement or report WITH NO DISCERNABLE SOURCE (my caps). Even a tenth-hand report, when attributed, is not a rumor, or folktale, I would like to point out. The manuscript used for OC's Codice Lauten-Buch was seen by a living, breathing Italian lutenist (whose name I have forgotten, but whose identify is known to many, including the several lute scholars and performers I encountered and with whom I discussed it at the various social gatherings at the 1997 Francesco Conference in Milan.). Thomas Schall also told this list about a meeting with the professional (see below). So we even have an immediate and direct (first hand) source--not a rumor of one. Furthermore, there is no necessity for further verification because that professional lutenist is fully qualified to pass on its authenticity and has already identified the manuscript as the original 16th-century manuscript used for Chilesotti's edition, _Da_un_Codice_Lauten-Buch._ Do you, Eugene, have factual evidence that the lutenist is a disreputable person, or phantom looth fairie (Matanya Ophee), who might spin a yarn and lie about the private recital and his host's treasured manuscript? What purpose is served by such deception? Do you have evidence that the lutenist lied to Dinko Fabris? Did he lie to Thomas Schall? Did he lie to the several individuals I met in Milan? This is not court-room testimony, nor is it the draft of a statement for a scholarly journal. Nevertheless, in a court of law, our lutenist might well qualify as an expert witness on the subject of manuscript lute music. Since when does a simple statement detailing the events and discoveries at a private recital remain invalid until scrutinized and approved in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal as you claim? And ecven if you had one, what good would it do you or your pal Matanya? Can you read titles written in 16th-century German script? I've never heard of such a thing in the discipline of musicology. Can you cite examples of peer-review to approve the authenticity of any manuscript? Do such certified works carry some kind of distinctive, notarized stamp on the flyleaf? Of course not, because such procedures have never been followed in any musicological context. Where'd you get the screwy idea they do? Usually if one discovers a new manuscript, everyone yells bravo! And you, Eugene? You scream, Get the approval stamp on the manuscript, get the stamp, or I'll report you as a liar and fraud! A phantom! That's a crazy way to act. Now you even get sillier, when, in order to malign a distinguished colleague in Italy you allege that he may have played from a fictitious Nessie-like fictional manuscript you describe as | a deliberately fraudulent reintabulation, | passed off if as sic an original. Think about it. Can't you thimk? Where would anyone find a person with the skills and leisure to counterfeit a 250-page manuscript written in old German script, which most Germans can't even decipher? Even if a professional forger were engaged, the resulting document would cost more to prepare than it would be to purchase the original. And what would motivate anyone to promulgate such an expensive hoax? Do think you could spot such a forgery if presented to you on the pages of a peer-reviewd journal? That's how screwy your idea is. You're really grasping at straws now, Eugene, as you try to defame the reputation of an eminent Italian lutenist by joining Matanya Ophee to claim he is some kind of phantom looth fairie. Do you claim that Thomas Schall was lying when he reported on his
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | As a total outsider in this matter, I just wonder why the Italian | living and breathing master lutenist is unnamed as of yet. | Paul Pleijsier ooo Dear Paul, I was told the name of the lutenist by several persons at the Francesco conference in 1997, but I did not recognize the name and subsequently forgot who it is. And I've never considered it so important that I'd seek out the name from my colleagues in Italy, or from Thomas Schall. The way the name was mentioned casually, the lutenist was a household name to those participating in the discussions. It was ten years ago. I never expected it would be so controversial. And the controversy is due solely to ugly comments by Matanya Ophee and now Eugene what's his name?. They are demanding information to which they are not necessarily entitled. and seem to think they will get the information by suggesting that we are liars, and by using other unkind epithets (looth fairies), and by characterizing the lutenist as a phantom. But I don't have the information they seek, and under the circumstances, wouldn't tell them even if I knew. The re-discovery of the manuscript was hot news at the conference. And several different persons told me about it. Sort of, breathlessly uttered, Did _you_ hear . . . And I did have an extended discussion about the discovery with at least one leading Italian lute scholar, who thought he was on the track of the person who purchased the manuscript shortly after Chilesotti's death in 1916. He named a famous Italian composer/musicologist (but not Respighi) who resided in northern Italy, not far from Chilesotti. Possibly it may be his family who still owns the manuscript. But that's just a guess, particularly because the manuscript seems never to have appeared on the auction or antiquarian markets, which are closely monitored by some of us. In 1997, noone told me the identity of the owner of the manuscript (it is possible noone knew)--information I surely would have tucked away for future reference in my 37-column article on the sources of lute music in the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. It was well-known that my revisions for the next edition were then in progress. That is probably the reason why so many people told me about the manuscript. When a new manuscript is discovered, I usually hear about it within a very short while. Two persons on this list have given me additional information privately about the Chilesotti manuscripts (plural). The present owner of the Codice Lauten-Buch manuscript may have been known to a mentor of one reader here, but the mentor is now deceased. The important matter is that Dinko Fabris (a leading Italian lute scholar, and an expert on the biography and works of Chilesotti) was able to determine that the manuscript was not destroyed in a fire. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
POssibly because he doesn't want to quoted, for political reasons. The same ones another (the same?) lutenist isn't talking about the Melchiorre Chiesa archlute Ms. Same situation. RT - Original Message - From: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:19 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi As a total outsider in this matter, I just wonder why the Italian living and breathing master lutenist is unnamed as of yet. Paul Pleijsier Op 26 sep 2008, om 04:24 heeft Arthur Ness het volgende geschreven: P.S. I should have posted this earlier. I found Eugene's accusations disturbing, and wanted to reply to them only after I had calmed down a bit. After all, the discovery of the manuscript for Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch was a major event for which we all should be cheering, and I felt the readers of this list would like to hear about it. To my chagrin Eugene charged that the discovery of the original manuscript is some kind of fraud. His allegations are wholly unjustified, often mean-spirited and false. ooo My word, Eugene! To equate some distant floating tree stump in a Scottish lake with a sighting of the mythical Nessie monster is hardly comparable to a master lutenist holding and playing from a 16th-century manuscript of lute music at a private function in northern Italy. The former is a fiction, the latter, a bona fide. Furthermore, I find it unfortunate that you would misrepresent the facts with your perversion of the word rumor. Consult your dictionary for the correct meaning and usage of the word rumor and you will discover that a rumor is a statement or report WITH NO DISCERNABLE SOURCE (my caps). Even a tenth-hand report, when attributed, is not a rumor, or folktale, I would like to point out. The manuscript used for OC's Codice Lauten-Buch was seen by a living, breathing Italian lutenist (whose name I have forgotten, but whose identify is known to many, including the several lute scholars and performers I encountered and with whom I discussed it at the various social gatherings at the 1997 Francesco Conference in Milan.). Thomas Schall also told this list about a meeting with the professional (see below). So we even have an immediate and direct (first hand) source--not a rumor of one. Furthermore, there is no necessity for further verification because that professional lutenist is fully qualified to pass on its authenticity and has already identified the manuscript as the original 16th-century manuscript used for Chilesotti's edition, _Da_un_Codice_Lauten-Buch._ Do you, Eugene, have factual evidence that the lutenist is a disreputable person, or phantom looth fairie (Matanya Ophee), who might spin a yarn and lie about the private recital and his host's treasured manuscript? What purpose is served by such deception? Do you have evidence that the lutenist lied to Dinko Fabris? Did he lie to Thomas Schall? Did he lie to the several individuals I met in Milan? This is not court-room testimony, nor is it the draft of a statement for a scholarly journal. Nevertheless, in a court of law, our lutenist might well qualify as an expert witness on the subject of manuscript lute music. Since when does a simple statement detailing the events and discoveries at a private recital remain invalid until scrutinized and approved in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal as you claim? And ecven if you had one, what good would it do you or your pal Matanya? Can you read titles written in 16th-century German script? I've never heard of such a thing in the discipline of musicology. Can you cite examples of peer-review to approve the authenticity of any manuscript? Do such certified works carry some kind of distinctive, notarized stamp on the flyleaf? Of course not, because such procedures have never been followed in any musicological context. Where'd you get the screwy idea they do? Usually if one discovers a new manuscript, everyone yells bravo! And you, Eugene? You scream, Get the approval stamp on the manuscript, get the stamp, or I'll report you as a liar and fraud! A phantom! That's a crazy way to act. Now you even get sillier, when, in order to malign a distinguished colleague in Italy you allege that he may have played from a fictitious Nessie-like fictional manuscript you describe as | a deliberately fraudulent reintabulation, | passed off if as sic an original. Think about it. Can't you thimk? Where would anyone find a person with the skills and leisure to counterfeit a 250-page manuscript written in old German script, which most Germans can't even decipher? Even if a professional forger were engaged, the resulting document would cost more to prepare than it would be to purchase the original. And what would motivate anyone to promulgate such an expensive hoax? Do think you
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
At 10:26 AM 9/26/2008, Arthur Ness wrote: I never expected it would be so controversial. And the controversy is due solely to ugly comments by Matanya Ophee and now Eugene what's his name?. They are demanding information to which they are not necessarily entitled. and seem to think they will get the information by suggesting that we are liars, and by using other unkind epithets (looth fairies), and by characterizing the lutenist as a phantom. But I don't have the information they seek, and under the circumstances, wouldn't tell them even if I knew. Arthur, you appear to be obsessed over a topic in which I have nothing more than an unsatisfied idle curiosity. You also are both attributing me with some contrary beliefs that I do not hold and thus have no interest in defending as well as with words I never typed and would never type (you seem to be confused by the fact that I personally am not Matanya). I have no interest in waging an unproductive war with you or anybody else. Feel free to re-read my comments and carry on with all the warring you'd like. Sorry, you'll have to do so without me. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | POssibly because he doesn't want to quoted, for political reasons. | The same ones another (the same?) lutenist isn't talking about the | Melchiorre Chiesa archlute Ms. | Same situation. | RT ooo You can imagine that there might be some further developments in Italy about which we are unaware. Politics might very well be involved in the selection of an editor and publisher for a facsimile edition, or maybe a facsimile edition with a new (and better) transcription to replace Chilesotti's. There would be big bucks in such an edition. Every music library in the world would buy a copy, just for starters. For political reasons some libraries are known to conceal rare books in their collection because they want to save them for a local scholar. I've heard that charge from musicologists who were in a position to know. E.g., the Berlin materials in Cracow. They were acknowledged to be in Cracow, but the Russian tanks moved into Hungary, and the books were no longer there.g You must have misunderstood me, Professor Heartz. We don't have the autograph manuscript for Magic Flute in our library. Sorry. I don't understand why you thought I was sending you a microfilm. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= ooo| | - Original Message - | From: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu | Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:19 AM | Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | | | As a total outsider in this matter, I just wonder why the Italian living | and breathing master lutenist is unnamed as of yet. | Paul Pleijsier | | | | Op 26 sep 2008, om 04:24 heeft Arthur Ness het volgende geschreven: | | P.S. I should have posted this earlier. I found Eugene's | accusations disturbing, and wanted to reply to them only after I had | calmed down a bit. | | After all, the discovery of the manuscript for Chilesotti's Codice | Lauten-Buch was a major event for which we all should be cheering, and I | felt the readers of this list would like to hear about it. To my | chagrin | Eugene charged that the discovery of the original manuscript is some | kind of fraud. His allegations are wholly unjustified, often | mean-spirited and false. |ooo | | My word, Eugene! To equate some distant floating tree stump in a | Scottish | lake with a sighting of the mythical Nessie monster is hardly | comparable | to a master lutenist holding and playing from a 16th-century manuscript | of | lute music at a private function in northern Italy. | | The former is a fiction, the latter, a bona fide. | | Furthermore, I find it unfortunate that you would misrepresent the facts | with your perversion of the word rumor. | | Consult your dictionary for the correct meaning and usage of the word | rumor and you will discover that a rumor is a statement or report | WITH | NO DISCERNABLE SOURCE (my caps). Even a tenth-hand report, when | attributed, is not a rumor, or folktale, I would like to point out. | | The manuscript used for OC's Codice Lauten-Buch was seen by a living, | breathing Italian lutenist (whose name I have forgotten, but whose | identify is known to many, including the | several lute scholars and performers I encountered and with whom I | discussed it at the various social gatherings at the 1997 Francesco | Conference in Milan.). Thomas Schall also told this | list about a meeting with the professional (see below). So we even have | an immediate and direct (first hand) source--not a rumor of one. | | Furthermore, there is no necessity for further verification because | that | professional lutenist is fully qualified to pass on its authenticity and | has | already identified the manuscript as the original 16th-century | manuscript | used for Chilesotti's edition, _Da_un_Codice_Lauten-Buch._ Do you, | Eugene, | have factual evidence that the lutenist is a disreputable person, or | phantom | looth fairie (Matanya Ophee), who might spin a yarn and lie about the | private recital and his host's treasured manuscript? What purpose is | served by such deception? | | Do you have evidence that the lutenist lied to Dinko Fabris? | | Did he lie to Thomas Schall? | | Did he lie to the several individuals I met in Milan? | | This is not court-room testimony, nor is it the draft of a statement for | a | scholarly journal. Nevertheless, in a court of law, our lutenist might | well qualify as an expert witness on the subject of manuscript lute | music. | | Since when does a simple statement detailing the events and discoveries
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: EUGENE BRAIG IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi You have quite deliberately quoted private correspondence way out of context and misrepresented or completely misconstrued the statements I made on this public forum. You're right, this discussion has descended into the silly. I am done with it. SNIP When you send me private correspondence, you should label it as such. Those many messages you sent to me, to Roman (and others?) and to the list arrived in my mail box under the label of the [LUTE] list. And perhaps you would be best advised to stick to biology, and not attempt to act as a surrogate for Matanya Ophee. He's not a musicologist either. --AJN. | Sincerely sorry, | Eugene SNIP To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
At 12:02 PM 9/26/2008, Arthur Ness wrote: - Original Message - From: EUGENE BRAIG IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi You have quite deliberately quoted private correspondence way out of context and misrepresented or completely misconstrued the statements I made on this public forum. You're right, this discussion has descended into the silly. I am done with it. SNIP When you send me private correspondence, you should label it as such. Those many messages you sent to me, to Roman (and others?) and to the list arrived in my mail box under the label of the [LUTE] list. And perhaps you would be best advised to stick to biology, and not attempt to act as a surrogate for Matanya Ophee. He's not a musicologist either. --AJN. All but one of those correspondences were sent to the list at large. Which is which is easily revealed in use of the reply button. Fortunately for me, it's extremely rare that I would ever write a thing to anybody that I wouldn't be comfortable sharing with the world. The only that wasn't sent to the list was the one from which you selectively excerpted one hypothetical but didn't see fit to add my statement that I am not saying the tale DID originate in either of those [hypothetical] possibilities; I am saying that without a scholarly process being publicly subject to peer review, there is no way for me to know. I haven't come to any conclusions at all about the existence of an original because there is not enough for me to personally evaluate in forming conclusion. I am not a surrogate for Matanya and no more universally share his opinions than I do yours. I thought I had made that clear, but you continually refer to Matanya's opinions and writings as though they were mine (which I believe do differ from his if you'd take the time to actually consider what I have written...not to mention the tone with which it was written) and continually disregard what I myself have written on this topic (please note that I'm the one who favors a more cordial air than either of you). You appear to consider all discussion of this topic through the filter of obsession with a war that is not mine and in which I have no interest. Unless you actually *are* citing me, please do not cite me in the future as you wage your wars. I do intend to stick to biology professionally (I'm better at arriving at friendly consensus with biologists of differing opinions), but I will continue to enjoy music as hobby and its discussion here as well. Frankly, discussions like this provide very strong disincentive for entry into the field of musicology. (Now, organology...) I am sorry to appear to have lost your acquaintance. Sincerely, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Arthur, I'm curious about the lutenist who may not be named as well. Trustworthy as this fellow probably is, there have been bigger hoaxes before so we have to remain sceptical until the lutenist's name comes out or there is some verifiable publication. The Segovia/Ponce frauds for example didn't happen so long ago as to be unthinkable today. For those who might not know, Andres Segovia and Manuel Ponce conspired to pass off Ponce's original guitar compositions as the work of past masters. These included transciptions of piano pieces (sic) by Allesandro Scarlatti, a Suite in A minor by Weiss, and the Sonata Classica by Sor - all entirely the work of Ponce. While today it seems incredible that anyone could be fooled for a minute (Ponce was a mediocre composer at best) these sham works were recorded and published in the 1950's under the baroque composers' names. Since these pieces were vouched for by such giants in the field, they got passed around and accepted as part of the repertoire. For years, Segovia and Ponce fooled audiences, critics and musicologists. John Williams' Wigmore Hall debut included the Scarlatti and Weiss pieces. Heitor Villa-Lobos tried to argue that the Weiss was so good that it must in fact be by J.S. Bach(!). When the master guitarist and respected composer were finally discovered, they claimed it had all been just a little joke. Ha-ha. I believe that all of these pieces are still in print under Ponce's name. Chris --- Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | As a total outsider in this matter, I just wonder why the Italian | living and breathing master lutenist is unnamed as of yet. | Paul Pleijsier ooo Dear Paul, I was told the name of the lutenist by several persons at the Francesco conference in 1997, but I did not recognize the name and subsequently forgot who it is. And I've never considered it so important that I'd seek out the name from my colleagues in Italy, or from Thomas Schall. The way the name was mentioned casually, the lutenist was a household name to those participating in the discussions. It was ten years ago. I never expected it would be so controversial. And the controversy is due solely to ugly comments by Matanya Ophee and now Eugene what's his name?. They are demanding information to which they are not necessarily entitled. and seem to think they will get the information by suggesting that we are liars, and by using other unkind epithets (looth fairies), and by characterizing the lutenist as a phantom. But I don't have the information they seek, and under the circumstances, wouldn't tell them even if I knew. The re-discovery of the manuscript was hot news at the conference. And several different persons told me about it. Sort of, breathlessly uttered, Did _you_ hear . . . And I did have an extended discussion about the discovery with at least one leading Italian lute scholar, who thought he was on the track of the person who purchased the manuscript shortly after Chilesotti's death in 1916. He named a famous Italian composer/musicologist (but not Respighi) who resided in northern Italy, not far from Chilesotti. Possibly it may be his family who still owns the manuscript. But that's just a guess, particularly because the manuscript seems never to have appeared on the auction or antiquarian markets, which are closely monitored by some of us. In 1997, noone told me the identity of the owner of the manuscript (it is possible noone knew)--information I surely would have tucked away for future reference in my 37-column article on the sources of lute music in the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. It was well-known that my revisions for the next edition were then in progress. That is probably the reason why so many people told me about the manuscript. When a new manuscript is discovered, I usually hear about it within a very short while. Two persons on this list have given me additional information privately about the Chilesotti manuscripts (plural). The present owner of the Codice Lauten-Buch manuscript may have been known to a mentor of one reader here, but the mentor is now deceased. The important matter is that Dinko Fabris (a leading Italian lute scholar, and an expert on the biography and works of Chilesotti) was able to determine that the manuscript was not destroyed in a fire. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Presenting contemporary works as historical is a long tradition in the music biz-- See Charles Cudworth, Ye Olde Spuriosity Shoppe, or Put in the Anhang in Notes 12 (1954-55). The program notes to a recent Naxos recording of Ponce's solo guitar music recounts this episode. Segovia was merely trying to keep up with the other international virtuosi of the day (Landowska, among others ), who were unearthing and performing old, obscure masterpieces--sometimes actual historical pieces, sometimes new compositions. I'm not entirely sure Segovia every acknowledged the hoax while Ponce was still alive. jeff - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 12:47 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi Arthur, I'm curious about the lutenist who may not be named as well. Trustworthy as this fellow probably is, there have been bigger hoaxes before so we have to remain sceptical until the lutenist's name comes out or there is some verifiable publication. The Segovia/Ponce frauds for example didn't happen so long ago as to be unthinkable today. For those who might not know, Andres Segovia and Manuel Ponce conspired to pass off Ponce's original guitar compositions as the work of past masters. These included transciptions of piano pieces (sic) by Allesandro Scarlatti, a Suite in A minor by Weiss, and the Sonata Classica by Sor - all entirely the work of Ponce. While today it seems incredible that anyone could be fooled for a minute (Ponce was a mediocre composer at best) these sham works were recorded and published in the 1950's under the baroque composers' names. Since these pieces were vouched for by such giants in the field, they got passed around and accepted as part of the repertoire. For years, Segovia and Ponce fooled audiences, critics and musicologists. John Williams' Wigmore Hall debut included the Scarlatti and Weiss pieces. Heitor Villa-Lobos tried to argue that the Weiss was so good that it must in fact be by J.S. Bach(!). When the master guitarist and respected composer were finally discovered, they claimed it had all been just a little joke. Ha-ha. I believe that all of these pieces are still in print under Ponce's name. Chris --- Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Paul Pleijsier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:19 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | As a total outsider in this matter, I just wonder why the Italian | living and breathing master lutenist is unnamed as of yet. | Paul Pleijsier ooo Dear Paul, I was told the name of the lutenist by several persons at the Francesco conference in 1997, but I did not recognize the name and subsequently forgot who it is. And I've never considered it so important that I'd seek out the name from my colleagues in Italy, or from Thomas Schall. The way the name was mentioned casually, the lutenist was a household name to those participating in the discussions. It was ten years ago. I never expected it would be so controversial. And the controversy is due solely to ugly comments by Matanya Ophee and now Eugene what's his name?. They are demanding information to which they are not necessarily entitled. and seem to think they will get the information by suggesting that we are liars, and by using other unkind epithets (looth fairies), and by characterizing the lutenist as a phantom. But I don't have the information they seek, and under the circumstances, wouldn't tell them even if I knew. The re-discovery of the manuscript was hot news at the conference. And several different persons told me about it. Sort of, breathlessly uttered, Did _you_ hear . . . And I did have an extended discussion about the discovery with at least one leading Italian lute scholar, who thought he was on the track of the person who purchased the manuscript shortly after Chilesotti's death in 1916. He named a famous Italian composer/musicologist (but not Respighi) who resided in northern Italy, not far from Chilesotti. Possibly it may be his family who still owns the manuscript. But that's just a guess, particularly because the manuscript seems never to have appeared on the auction or antiquarian markets, which are closely monitored by some of us. In 1997, noone told me the identity of the owner of the manuscript (it is possible noone knew)--information I surely would have tucked away for future reference in my 37-column article on the sources of lute music in the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. It was well-known that my revisions for the next edition were then in progress. That is probably the reason why so many people told me about the manuscript. When a new manuscript is discovered, I usually hear about it within a very short while
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
On Sep 26, 2008, at 11:40 AM, Jeffrey Noonan wrote: Segovia was merely trying to keep up with the other international virtuosi of the day (Landowska, among others ), who were unearthing and performing old, obscure masterpieces--sometimes actual historical pieces, sometimes new compositions. I'm not entirely sure Segovia every acknowledged the hoax while Ponce was still alive. Segovia had a way of making old masterpieces sound obscure. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
At 02:44 PM 9/26/2008, howard posner wrote: On Sep 26, 2008, at 11:40 AM, Jeffrey Noonan wrote: Segovia was merely trying to keep up with the other international virtuosi of the day (Landowska, among others ), who were unearthing and performing old, obscure masterpieces--sometimes actual historical pieces, sometimes new compositions. I'm not entirely sure Segovia every acknowledged the hoax while Ponce was still alive. Segovia had a way of making old masterpieces sound obscure. Very nice! Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Jeff, --- Jeffrey Noonan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Presenting contemporary works as historical is a long tradition in the music biz-- So is outright stealing and piracy. The program notes to a recent Naxos recording of Ponce's solo guitar music recounts this episode. Segovia was merely trying to keep up with the other international virtuosi of the day Yes, Fritz Kreisler was another famous one. We can chuckle about it now, remembering what colorful characters the big names of yesterday were. But it was horribly irresponsible even in those days. From a musicological standpoint, such stunts could potentially waste countless hours as researchers try to track down sources that don't exist. This is a serious issue. (In Ponce's case, musicologists _should_ have picked up on the stylistic discrepancies immediately, but I suspect they simply weren't paying attention to what was happening in the guitar world.) From the listener's standpoint, such behavior on the part of performers is disrespectful to say the least. Ponce/Segovia/Kreisler, et al are free to use whatever nom de plume of their own invention that they so choose. I've done it myself with a couple of my compositions. When they compose, perform, publish and record music under the name of a (long dead and safely un-litigious) musical giant, however, they are intentionally misrepresenting themselves by riding on the coat tails of another's reputation. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_Hoax RT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Presenting contemporary works as historical is a long tradition in the music biz-- So is outright stealing and piracy. The program notes to a recent Naxos recording of Ponce's solo guitar music recounts this episode. Segovia was merely trying to keep up with the other international virtuosi of the day Yes, Fritz Kreisler was another famous one. We can chuckle about it now, remembering what colorful characters the big names of yesterday were. But it was horribly irresponsible even in those days. From a musicological standpoint, such stunts could potentially waste countless hours as researchers try to track down sources that don't exist. This is a serious issue. (In Ponce's case, musicologists _should_ have picked up on the stylistic discrepancies immediately, but I suspect they simply weren't paying attention to what was happening in the guitar world.) From the listener's standpoint, such behavior on the part of performers is disrespectful to say the least. Ponce/Segovia/Kreisler, et al are free to use whatever nom de plume of their own invention that they so choose. I've done it myself with a couple of my compositions. When they compose, perform, publish and record music under the name of a (long dead and safely un-litigious) musical giant, however, they are intentionally misrepresenting themselves by riding on the coat tails of another's reputation. Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Dear Fabio, Thank you for the clarification. Do you recall in which Italian journal the list appeared? Yes, it was a special issue of Orfeo. Il mensile di musica antica e barocca, published in August 1998, and entirely dedicated to the O'Dette's cd, included with the magazine. Orfeo is not still in print, so I've made a copy of it in Pdf format: http://www.esnips.com/doc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/orfeo_8-2008 The title Da un codice del Cinquecento . . . is not correct. Well, the title Da un codice / Lauten-Buch / del Cinquecento is really meaningless, in Italian. I'm quite sure that Chilesotti simply titled the book Da un Codice del Cinquecento (From a Sixteenth Century Codex), and that the German title Lauten-Buch was not original, but simply added by the publishers (Breikopf Härtel) to please their German customers. Unfortunately, the choice to put it *whitin* the Italian title was very poor, from a typographic point of view... Regards, Fabio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
At 11:12 AM 9/23/2008, Arkadia Trio wrote: Dear Fabio, Thank you for the clarification. Do you recall in which Italian journal the list appeared? Yes, it was a special issue of Orfeo. Il mensile di musica antica e barocca, published in August 1998, and entirely dedicated to the O'Dette's cd, included with the magazine. Orfeo is not still in print, so I've made a copy of it in Pdf format: http://www.esnips.com/doc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/orfeo_8-2008 I'd love to see, but this link does not appear to be correct. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
http://www.esnips.com/doc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/orfeo_8-2008 I'd love to see, but this link does not appear to be correct. Maybe this? http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/?action=forceDL To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
On Sep 24, 2008, at 1:10 AM, Arkadia Trio wrote: Maybe this? http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/? action=forceDL Maybe. Maybe I just don't understand esnipes. It always brings me to my own page there. How do I find the file? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
At 12:10 PM 9/23/2008, Arkadia Trio wrote: http://www.esnips.com/doc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/orfeo_8-2008 I'd love to see, but this link does not appear to be correct. Maybe this? http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/?action=forceDL Possibly, but this one requires members to sign in. Unfortunately (in this instance), I am not an esnips member. Thanks for the effort to make this available, however. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
On Sep 24, 2008, at 1:27 AM, Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Maybe this? http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/? action=forceDL Possibly, but this one requires members to sign in. Unfortunately (in this instance), I am not an esnips member. Thanks for the effort to make this available, however. But I am a member. However, I still don't understand. Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Maybe. Maybe I just don't understand esnipes. It always brings me to my own page there. How do I find the file? Okat, let's try this: http://fabiorizza.altervista.org/orfeo_8-1998.pdf (16.4 Mb) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Dear Fabio, Thank you very much for the additional information. Alas I was unable to get the *.pdf files you posted, but the one you just posted worked fine. I am revising and updating an article on the manuscript that I wrote several years ago. The German lute scholar Wilhelm Tappert (d. about 1906) made extensive notes from the original mauscript when he saw it at antiquarian book dealers in Munich and Berlin, and his papers shed important light on the manuscript with details that Chilesotti omitted. He for example OC changed some of the titles and left out written materials which Tappert copied out. The manuscript was compiled by a Nuremberg merchant, that's why I thought Chilesotti deliberately refered to the word Lauten-Buch using that archaic spelling. Alas Tappert gives no information about the titlepage or the binding which might carry that word. Thanks again for the information. =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Chopin's 3 Mazurkas, Op. 59, performed by Abdel Rahman El Bacha, pianist. To download, click on the CML link here http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ My Web Page: Scores http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ Other Matters: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ === - Original Message - From: Arkadia Trio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; ml [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Arthur Ness [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | Dear Fabio, | | Thank you for the clarification. Do you recall in which Italian journal | the list appeared? | | | | Yes, it was a special issue of Orfeo. Il mensile di musica antica e | barocca, published in August 1998, and entirely dedicated to the O'Dette's | cd, included with the magazine. Orfeo is not still in print, so I've made | a copy of it in Pdf format: | http://www.esnips.com/doc/4268cda5-2bc2-4846-b6c9-c77d8102b232/orfeo_8-2008 | | | | The title Da un codice del Cinquecento . . . is not correct. | | | | Well, the title Da un codice / Lauten-Buch / del Cinquecento is really | meaningless, in Italian. I'm quite sure that Chilesotti simply titled the | book Da un Codice del Cinquecento (From a Sixteenth Century Codex), and | that the German title Lauten-Buch was not original, but simply added by | the publishers (Breikopf Härtel) to please their German customers. | Unfortunately, the choice to put it *whitin* the Italian title was very | poor, from a typographic point of view... | | Regards, | Fabio | | | | | | | | To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
At 02:38 PM 9/23/2008, Arkadia Trio wrote: Maybe. Maybe I just don't understand esnipes. It always brings me to my own page there. How do I find the file? Okat, let's try this: http://fabiorizza.altervista.org/orfeo_8-1998.pdf (16.4 Mb) Yes, this one works. Thanks again. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Dear Eugene, Arthur All: Actually, Respighi's other major source for material for his 'Ancient Airs Dances' suites was Chilesotti's _Lautenspieler des XVI Jahrhunderts_, published in 1891. This volume contains 'guitar' transcriptions of the bits by V. Galilei, Molinaro, Besard, Gianoncelli, Boesset (via Marin, 1636), as well as a host of other good composers of good lute music. The volume was reprinted by Forni, Bologna at some unknown date, and is a worthy anthology ripe for re-transcripiton into lute tablature. As for the 'rumor' qualifications of the existence of Chilesotti's other original ms., one has to agree with Eugene that, until published, it remains folklore. We would all truly love to see the evidence and encourage the Italian lutenist to make his story more widely available. Best wishes, Ron Andrico [1]www.mignarda.com Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:19:23 -0400 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi Greetings Arthur et al. I very sincerely intended no disrespect in referring to the existence of the original as a rumor. I have read these accounts before. I do not know the lutenist referenced nor the owner of the manuscript. I am also a biologist who deals with wild things. Eyewitness accounts are why the Loch Ness monster isn't on the books amongst those in my profession. I am not doubting what the lutenist in question saw. It's only that I have not seen it, have not seen this referenced in any known catalogues, have not had any corroboration beyond this singular account, etc. Again, I very sincerely intend absolutely no disrespect, but without more than a single un-verifiable account, this particular book is rumor from my perspective. I do not claim to speak from anybody else's perspective. I am also very fully aware that Respighi drew from a great many sources (Roncalli's guitar music, e.g.). Feel free to read again: nowhere did I write nor intend to imply that Respighi only drew from the Codice Lauten-Buch--nowehere did I write that whole of Respighi's Ancient Airs could be located in Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch. Anybody who took me to mean that Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch was Respighi's sole source read far more in my brief note than I'd actually written. Also, anybody who dedicates years to a musicological wild goose chase based upon what a biologist/amateur musician posts to a public electronic forum deserves to find nothing at all. I also do not represent some kind of isolated, isolationist guitar world any more than I do an even odder 6-course, baroque-era mandolino world...or a pre-Chambure, speculative vihuela world. Personally, I love everybody's music and wouldn't dare to contain myself to one facet. Again, I intended no disrespect at all, but there is nothing I or the interested public can confirm of tablature originals of Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch. That was my only point. Sincerely, Eugene - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi To: Eugene C. Braignbsp;IV lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;, List Lute lt;lute@cs.dartmouth.edugt; gt; - Original Message - gt; From: Eugene C. Braignbsp;IV lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; gt; To: List Lute lt;lute@cs.dartmouth.edugt; gt; Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 2:36 PM gt; Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi gt; gt; gt; | At 09:40 PM 9/16/2008, howardnbsp;posnernbsp;wrote: gt; | gt;In 1994 Dick Hoban's Lyre Music Publications published Oscar gt; | gt;Chilesotti's Da un Codice Lauten-buch, Dick's re- gt; intabulation of gt; | gt;Chilesotti's transcriptions in neat, easy-to-read large-type French gt; | gt;tablature, spiral bound. You can order it from: gt; | gt; gt; | gt;http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lyre/lyre.html gt; | gt; | Because original tablature versions of the Chilesotti book gt; only appear gt; to gt; | exist in occasionally-referenced, third-person rumors, I gt; believe Paul gt; | O'Dette took a similar approach to his Ancient Airs recording: gt; | re-intabulating from Chilesotti's staff-notation version. gt; gt; Dear Eugene, gt; gt; This common misunderstanding about the gt; Respighi Ancient Aires seems to surface from the guitar world each gt; and every time the Respighi suites are mentioned! All you gt; do is send gt; readers on a wild goose chase looking for pieces that are NOT in the gt; Codice Lauten-Buch. gt; gt; Can you imagine how frustrating it is to look through gt; 100 scores in an attempt to find a work that is not there? gt; gt; We've all done t. gt; gt; First
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Obviously, Ron, I wholeheartedly agree with your agreement with me. I feel obliged to add a little clarification. Again, all, please keep in mind that the following only represents my personal perspective on the value of third-hand eyewitness accounts; I don't claim to speak for anybody else. I would contend that the passing from hand to hand (or ear to ear) of any eyewitness account could be considered a decent working definition of rumor. Many rumors do have a kernel of truth in their origin, and obviously, some sources are more credible than others. However, as soon as that account passes outside of the hands of the eyewitness with first-hand experience relaying his account to an individual who then has second-hand knowledge of it, as the account enters the realm of the third-hand, it *is* rumor even if based in fact. Paul O'Dette himself (whose Ancient Airs... liner notes do list the sources he used for all the pieces) refers to the existence of a tablature original as unconfirmed reports (which would seem another decent definition of rumor). O'Dette couldn't track down the original at that time and concedes within those liner notes to recreating tablatures for those six pieces from Chilesotti's staff-notation version of the Codice in question. As a biologist based in at least a little scholarship, I really do not believe eyewitness accounts are anything upon which scholarship can be based. Good eyewitness accounts can serve as an impetus for interested scholars to do more work, but reference to the account itself is not a good basis for scholarship. I don't even think publication of the whole document is necessary for a tablature original of Chilesotti's Codice to enter the realm of the scholarly. I would love to see a brief study of the document with a few simple photographic facsimiles appear in a reputable, peer-review publication like the LSA Journal, Early Music, etc. That would be interesting, of much more value to the scholarly community than any word-of-mouth eyewitness account, and would solidly remove any rumor stigma associated with this bit of lute folklore. Best, Eugene At 06:30 AM 9/22/2008, Ron Andrico wrote: Dear Eugene, Arthur All: Actually, Respighi's other major source for material for his 'Ancient Airs Dances' suites was Chilesotti's _Lautenspieler des XVI Jahrhunderts_, published in 1891. This volume contains 'guitar' transcriptions of the bits by V. Galilei, Molinaro, Besard, Gianoncelli, Boesset (via Marin, 1636), as well as a host of other good composers of good lute music. The volume was reprinted by Forni, Bologna at some unknown date, and is a worthy anthology ripe for re-transcripiton into lute tablature. As for the 'rumor' qualifications of the existence of Chilesotti's other original ms., one has to agree with Eugene that, until published, it remains folklore. We would all truly love to see the evidence and encourage the Italian lutenist to make his story more widely available. Best wishes, Ron Andrico [1]www.mignarda.com Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:19:23 -0400 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi Greetings Arthur et al. I very sincerely intended no disrespect in referring to the existence of the original as a rumor. I have read these accounts before. I do not know the lutenist referenced nor the owner of the manuscript. I am also a biologist who deals with wild things. Eyewitness accounts are why the Loch Ness monster isn't on the books amongst those in my profession. I am not doubting what the lutenist in question saw. It's only that I have not seen it, have not seen this referenced in any known catalogues, have not had any corroboration beyond this singular account, etc. Again, I very sincerely intend absolutely no disrespect, but without more than a single un-verifiable account, this particular book is rumor from my perspective. I do not claim to speak from anybody else's perspective. I am also very fully aware that Respighi drew from a great many sources (Roncalli's guitar music, e.g.). Feel free to read again: nowhere did I write nor intend to imply that Respighi only drew from the Codice Lauten-Buch--nowehere did I write that whole of Respighi's Ancient Airs could be located in Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch. Anybody who took me to mean that Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch was Respighi's sole source read far more in my brief note than I'd actually written. Also, anybody who dedicates years to a musicological wild goose chase based upon what a biologist/amateur musician posts to a public electronic forum deserves to find nothing at all
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Dear Fabio, Thank you for the clarification. Do you recall in which Italian journal the list appeared? I think I'll revive an old article on the Codice Lauten-Buch and post it on my web site. In the meantime, perhaps you'll permit me to add a few comments to your helpful list. It surely is more extensive and informative than anything posted so far to this thread. I'll add my comments in and 's, but refer you to my article for identiication of composers, corrections of misspelled and unreported titles, transcripts of the jokes in the original, etc. - Original Message - From: Arkadia Trio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; ml [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 5:22 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | Dear lutelisters, | | I was listening to the 1st Suite by Respighi (Antiche Arie e Danze), | and became curious: the first and second pieces are by Molinaro and V. | Galilei, and the 3rd and 4th are Anon. | | Which pieces exactly are the originals used by Respighi? Where are | they available (I mean the intabs, of course)? | | | An Italian magazine published years ago the following list: | | SUITE nr. 1 1917 | Simone Molinaro, Ballo detto Il conte Orlando Saltarello del predetto | ballo, from Intavolatura per liuto - Libro primo (1599) Respighi does not use the saltarello. Instead, perhaps to make a broader opening statement for his suite, he rewrote the ballo in the minor mode The major mode ballo then is heard da capo to make an ABA form. | Vincenzo Galilei, Polymnia gagliarda The original is in one of Galilei's own manuscripts dated 1584. Respighi got the transcrption from an article by OC in some Italian music magazine. Polymnia is the muse of sacred music, and that accounts for the unusually intense contrapuntal texture. In one phrase the melody is in a middle voice, almost hidden from many players--but NOT from Paul O'Dette. I have a transcription for guitar that I'll post to my web page. | Anon., Italiana from Oscar Chilesotti's Da un codice del Cinquecento The title Da un codice del Cinquecento . . . is not correct. Some rip-off editions try to make the manuscript appear of Italian origin. It is Bavarian. The largest word on OC's title page is Lauten-Buch, in the archaic spelling that Chilesotti probably found on the cover. A Codice Lautenbuch is simply a handwritten (codice) lute book, as opposed to a printed one. Although Chilesotti takes pains to indicate the pieces are for seven-course lute (transcribed for seven-string lute-guitar), in actuality most are for six-course instrument, often in Abzug--that is with the sixth course tuned a tone lower, as in this Italiana. This is No. 59 in the Codice Lauten-Buch. It is a bagpipe piece. The ostinato F-c-f represents the drones, and the high wandering melody, the chanter melody. The manuscript was probably copied in Nuremberg and there are similar bagpipe pieces in Fuhrmann's Testudo Gallo-Germanica (interestingly also Nuremberg, 1615). Other bagpipe pieces were written by Giulio Caesare Barbetta (one in the Herold MS, ed. in Facsimile by Schlegel and Goy for TREE EDITIONS) and Dowland (The Battel Galliard--bagpipers of course led the soldiers into battle.) JUdging from his orchestration, Respighi was unaware that this is a piece in imitation of bagpipes. Then the Polymnia Galliard is heard again, da capo, making an ABA structure. For this reason some guitar editions falsely attribute the Italiana to Galilei, since it appears that the galiarda and Italian are one ABA piece. The rip-off artists did not realize (as you correctly indicate) that Respighi combined the pieces from entirely separate, unrelated sources, one German and the other Italian. | Anon., Orlando fa' che ti raccordi (villanella) Codice Lauten-Buch, No. 50. This is a strange item. I suspect the underlaid text from Orlando furioso was added by OC. It is nevertheless one of the most devastatingly beautiful lute pieces from the Renaissance. I have been unsuccessful in locating the vocal original, if one exists. | Anon., Italiana from Oscar Chilesotti's Da un codice del Cinquecento No. 49. The tempo indication lento is editorial. The Orlando villanella then returns to make an ABA piece in Respighi's suite. | Anon., Passo mezzo bonissimo Codice Lauten-Buch, No. 24. In 4 partes. Also see No. 66 for a continuation with 5 more partes (not used by OR). | Anon., Mascherada Codice Lauten-Buch, No. 43. Some cognate sources give the title Trommeten [or Drommeten] Tanz (Trumpet Dance), then Passo mezzo da capo in Respighi | SUITE nr. 2 1923 | Fabrizio Caroso, Laura soave See Caroso, 1600, 1605. | Jean-Baptiste Besard, Bransles de Village, from Novus partus (1671 1617) For lute duet | Anon., Campanae parisienses Ibid. The famous carillon piece. | Antoine Boësset, Divine Amaryllis, from Mersenne's Harmonie Universelle | (1636) | Bernardo Gianoncelli, Tasteggiata Bergamasca publ. Venice, 1650; OC's
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: Ron Andrico [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: EUGENE BRAIG IV [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 6:30 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | Dear Eugene, Arthur All: | | Actually, Respighi's other major source for material for his 'Ancient | Airs Dances' suites was Chilesotti's _Lautenspieler des XVI | Jahrhunderts_, published in 1891. I would hardly call THREE of 22 pieces a major source. Once again you join Eugene in sending readers off on a wild goose chase. | This volume contains 'guitar' | transcriptions of the bits by V. Galilei, The Galilei gagliarda used by Respighi is NOT in Lautenspieler. Please note: None of the other pieces in the suites are by Galilei. The Italiana (Suite I, No. 2B), often attributed to Galilei in rip-pff guitar editions, is Anonynous. | Molinaro, Nope! The piece Respighi used is not in Lautenspieler. | Besard, Just the Bransle and Campagnae. None of the airs de cour are in Lautenspieler. They are from a different Chilesotti book, one of two collections of airs de cour from 1914-15. Both collections also in Forni reprints from 1968. | Gianoncelli, The Bergamasca and tasteggiata, combined by Respighi into one piece. | Boesset (via Marin, 1636), Nope. Not in Lautenspieler. In the other anthology? | as well as a host of other good | composers of good lute music. The volume was reprinted by Forni, | Bologna at some unknown date, The date for the Forni reprint given in the book is 1978 (see the colophon). The original was publ. in 1891. | and is a worthy anthology ripe for | re-transcripiton into lute tablature. The whole point I was attempting to establish is that for ALL of the other (non-Codice) pieces in the Respighi suites, the original tablature is easily obtained, and there is no need to re-intabulate the pieces from transcriptions. The whereabouts of only one source (the Codicetto) used in Lautenspieler is unknown. For all the other pieces the original tablatures are easily obtained, many in modern facsimile editions. | As for the 'rumor' qualifications of the existence of Chilesotti's | other original ms., one has to agree with Eugene that, until | published, | it remains folklore. We would all truly love to see the evidence and | encourage the Italian lutenist to make his story more widely | available. Do you know the meaning of the word rumor? You might also check on the meaning of the word folklore. Do you and Eugene mean to tell us that the Italian lutenist (whose name I can no longer recall, even if I wished to reveal it in this context), Thomas Schall, Dinko Fabris, Paul O'Dette, all the others and I are all LIARS? Or that the Italian lutenist doesn't exist? Please see my response to Howard's message, Parts 1 and 2. I don't know what more evidence you want. The only folklore about the Lauten-Buch is the long established misinformation that Chilesotti's home went up in flames in a spectacular midnight blaze. Nothing of the sort happened, as Dinko discovered. Furthermore, all of Chilesotti's papers survive, as I indicated, and would likewise have been destroyed if such a fire had destroyed his library. | Best wishes, | | Ron Andrico =AJN (Boston, Mass.)= This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Chopin's 3 Mazurkas, Op. 59, performed by Abdel Rahman El Bacha, pianist. To download, click on the CML link here http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ My Web Page: Scores http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ Other Matters: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ === To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
- Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List Lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 2:36 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi | At 09:40 PM 9/16/2008, howard posner wrote: | In 1994 Dick Hoban's Lyre Music Publications published Oscar | Chilesotti's Da un Codice Lauten-buch, Dick's re-intabulation of | Chilesotti's transcriptions in neat, easy-to-read large-type French | tablature, spiral bound. You can order it from: | | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lyre/lyre.html | | Because original tablature versions of the Chilesotti book only appear to | exist in occasionally-referenced, third-person rumors, I believe Paul | O'Dette took a similar approach to his Ancient Airs recording: | re-intabulating from Chilesotti's staff-notation version. Dear Eugene, This common misunderstanding about the Respighi Ancient Aires seems to surface from the guitar world each and every time the Respighi suites are mentioned! All you do is send readers on a wild goose chase looking for pieces that are NOT in the Codice Lauten-Buch. Can you imagine how frustrating it is to look through 100 scores in an attempt to find a work that is not there? We've all done t. First--fast through. Nothing. Slower. Nothing. But Eugene said they're there. Once more--very slowly and carefully. Damn! There's no there there! All of the transcriptions used by Respighi come from SEVERAL articles on lute music published by Chilesotti in various places, including some rather obscure Italian music journals, which are particularly troublesome to locate. The three suites (publ. 1917, 1923 and 1931--after OC's death in 1916) contain 24 pieces, and ONLY SIX are taken from the Codice Lauten-Buch! And the tablature for one of the six pieces is reproduced in Chilesotti's book in facsimile. So one would only have to re-intabulate 5 of the pieces, because all of the others are available in the original tablatures, many in convenient facsimile editions or modern editions wth tablature. As for the third-person rumors, I take exception elsewhere in this thread. I'd rather say they are not rumors, but an eye-witness account by a professional Italian lutenist who played a private recital in the home of the manuscript's current owner in the late 1990s. He is said to have performed directly directly from the original manuscript Lauten-Buch. AJN snip | Best, | Eugene | | | | To get on or off this list see list information at | http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html |
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Greetings Arthur et al. I very sincerely intended no disrespect in referring to the existence of the original as a rumor. I have read these accounts before. I do not know the lutenist referenced nor the owner of the manuscript. I am also a biologist who deals with wild things. Eyewitness accounts are why the Loch Ness monster isn't on the books amongst those in my profession. I am not doubting what the lutenist in question saw. It's only that I have not seen it, have not seen this referenced in any known catalogues, have not had any corroboration beyond this singular account, etc. Again, I very sincerely intend absolutely no disrespect, but without more than a single un-verifiable account, this particular book is rumor from my perspective. I do not claim to speak from anybody else's perspective. I am also very fully aware that Respighi drew from a great many sources (Roncalli's guitar music, e.g.). Feel free to read again: nowhere did I write nor intend to imply that Respighi only drew from the Codice Lauten-Buch--nowehere did I write that whole of Respighi's Ancient Airs could be located in Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch. Anybody who took me to mean that Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch was Respighi's sole source read far more in my brief note than I'd actually written. Also, anybody who dedicates years to a musicological wild goose chase based upon what a biologist/amateur musician posts to a public electronic forum deserves to find nothing at all. I also do not represent some kind of isolated, isolationist guitar world any more than I do an even odder 6-course, baroque-era mandolino world...or a pre-Chambure, speculative vihuela world. Personally, I love everybody's music and wouldn't dare to contain myself to one facet. Again, I intended no disrespect at all, but there is nothing I or the interested public can confirm of tablature originals of Chilesotti's Codice Lauten-Buch. That was my only point. Sincerely, Eugene - Original Message - From: Arthur Ness lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Respighi To: Eugene C. Braignbsp;IV lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;, List Lute lt;lute@cs.dartmouth.edugt; gt; - Original Message - gt; From: Eugene C. Braignbsp;IV lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; gt; To: List Lute lt;lute@cs.dartmouth.edugt; gt; Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 2:36 PM gt; Subject: [LUTE] Re: Respighi gt; gt; gt; | At 09:40 PM 9/16/2008, howardnbsp;posnernbsp;wrote: gt; | gt;In 1994 Dick Hoban's Lyre Music Publications published Oscar gt; | gt;Chilesotti's Da un Codice Lauten-buch, Dick's re- gt; intabulation of gt; | gt;Chilesotti's transcriptions in neat, easy-to-read large-type French gt; | gt;tablature, spiral bound. You can order it from: gt; | gt; gt; | gt;http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lyre/lyre.html gt; | gt; | Because original tablature versions of the Chilesotti book gt; only appear gt; to gt; | exist in occasionally-referenced, third-person rumors, I gt; believe Paul gt; | O'Dette took a similar approach to his Ancient Airs recording: gt; | re-intabulating from Chilesotti's staff-notation version. gt; gt; Dear Eugene, gt; gt; This common misunderstanding about the gt; Respighi Ancient Aires seems to surface from the guitar world each gt; and every time the Respighi suites are mentioned! All you gt; do is send gt; readers on a wild goose chase looking for pieces that are NOT in the gt; Codice Lauten-Buch. gt; gt; Can you imagine how frustrating it is to look through gt; 100 scores in an attempt to find a work that is not there? gt; gt; We've all done t. gt; gt; First--fast through. Nothing. gt; Slower. Nothing. gt; But Eugene said they're there. gt; Once more--very slowly and carefully. gt; Damn! There's no gt; there there! gt; gt; All of the transcriptions used by Respighi come from SEVERAL articles gt; on lute music published by Chilesotti in various places, gt; including some gt; rather obscure Italian music journals, which are particularly gt; troublesometo locate. The three suites (publ. 1917, 1923 and gt; 1931--after OC's death gt; in 1916) contain 24 pieces, and ONLY SIX are taken from the Codice gt; Lauten-Buch! And the tablature for one of the six pieces gt; is reproduced gt; in Chilesotti's book in facsimile. So one would only have to gt; re-intabulate 5 of the pieces, because all of the others are available gt; in the original tablatures, many in convenient facsimile gt; editions or gt; modern editions wth tablature. gt; gt; As for the third-person rumors, I take exception elsewhere in this gt; thread. I'd rather say they are not rumors, but an eye- gt; witness account gt; by a professional Italian lutenist who played a private recital gt; in the gt; home of the manuscript's current owner in the late 1990s. gt; He is said to gt; have performed gt; directly directly from the original manuscript Lauten-Buch. gt; gt; AJN gt; gt; lt;lt
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Hi, Christopher, Howard and Edward, thank you very very much for your answers! I'll try to find that POD CD, and will order Hoban's publication as well! Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo El 17/09/2008, a las 6:04, Edward Martin escribió: Howard is correct. The first suite of Respighi does include the latter pieces from Chilesotti Lute Book. The other suites contain pieces from some of the airs du cour from Besard's Thesaurus Harmonicus. There is also some Gianoncelli, Roncalli, Caroso, and Garsi da Parma thrown into the mix as well. It is a nice recording, and Paul mentioned that it took him a good deal of time to hunt down all the original pieces from which Respighi had taken inspiration. ed At 06:40 PM 9/16/2008 -0700, howard posner wrote: I believe the remaining pieces are from the Chilesotti Lute Book (Da un Codice Lauten-buch), a book of musicologist Oscar Chilesotti's transcriptions of a lute manuscript, which was published in 1891. The original lute book has not been available publicly, if at all, for more than a century. Rumors of its whereabouts drift around from time to time. Arthur Ness will doubtless have something to say on that subject. In 1986 Paul O'Dette recorded a CD on Hyperion of all the pieces Respighi used, in the order they appear in Antiche Arie e Danze, titled Ancient Airs and Dances. He mentioned most, if not all, of the sources in the CD booklet, but I can't swear that if you buy the CD now you'll get the same booklet. In 1994 Dick Hoban's Lyre Music Publications published Oscar Chilesotti's Da un Codice Lauten-buch, Dick's re-intabulation of Chilesotti's transcriptions in neat, easy-to-read large-type French tablature, spiral bound. You can order it from: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lyre/lyre.html Dick's foreword mentions that numbers 59, 50, 49, 24 and 43 are in Respighi's first suite. On Sep 16, 2008, at 5:23 PM, ml wrote: I was listening to the 1st Suite by Respighi (Antiche Arie e Danze), and became curious: the first and second pieces are by Molinaro and V. Galilei, and the 3rd and 4th are Anon. Which pieces exactly are the originals used by Respighi? Where are they available (I mean the intabs, of course)? The first is played by POD in his Molinaro CD, and I could locate it in the SPES edition, but regarding the other three I have no idea where to look at... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1674 - Release Date: 9/16/2008 8:15 AM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Dear Manolo: You mentioned the first 'Ancient Airs Dances' suite by Respighi: The second and third suites contain music from Besard's Thesaurus Harmonicus (1603), as well as one from his Novus Partus (1617). These are all available - with Besard's many original errors corrected - in our edition of Airs de court from Besard. [1]http://mignarda.com/editions Best wishes, Ron Andrico Donna Stewart [2]www.mignarda.com Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:23:15 +0200 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [LUTE] Respighi Dear lutelisters, I was listening to the 1st Suite by Respighi (Antiche Arie e Danze), and became curious: the first and second pieces are by Molinaro and V. Galilei, and the 3rd and 4th are Anon. Which pieces exactly are the originals used by Respighi? Where are they available (I mean the intabs, of course)? The first is played by POD in his Molinaro CD, and I could locate it in the SPES edition, but regarding the other three I have no idea where to look at... Thank you very much for your answer, Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. [3]See Now -- References 1. http://mignarda.com/editions 2. http://www.mignarda.com/ 3. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Dear lutelisters, I was listening to the 1st Suite by Respighi (Antiche Arie e Danze), and became curious: the first and second pieces are by Molinaro and V. Galilei, and the 3rd and 4th are Anon. Which pieces exactly are the originals used by Respighi? Where are they available (I mean the intabs, of course)? An Italian magazine published years ago the following list: SUITE nr. 1 Simone Molinaro, Ballo detto Il conte Orlando Saltarello del predetto ballo, from Intavolatura per liuto - Libro primo (1599) Vincenzo Galilei, Polymnia Anon., Italiana from Oscar Chilesotti's Da un codice del Cinquecento Anon., Orlando fa' che ti raccordi (villanella) Anon., Italiana from Oscar Chilesotti's Da un codice del Cinquecento Anon., Passo mezzo bonissimo Anon., Mascherada SUITE nr. 2 Fabrizio Caroso, Laura soave Jean-Baptiste Besard, Bransles de Village, from Novus partus (1671) Anon., Campanae parisienses Antoine Boësset, Divine Amaryllis, from Mersenne's Harmonie Universelle (1636) Bernardo Gianoncelli, Tasteggiata Bergamasca SUITE nr. 3 Anon., Italiana Santino Garsi, La Cesarina Jean-Baptiste Besard, 6 Airs de court, from Thesaurus Harmonicus (1603) Anon., Spagnoletta Ludovico Roncalli, Passacaglia, from Capricci armonici (1692) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
At 09:40 PM 9/16/2008, howard posner wrote: In 1994 Dick Hoban's Lyre Music Publications published Oscar Chilesotti's Da un Codice Lauten-buch, Dick's re-intabulation of Chilesotti's transcriptions in neat, easy-to-read large-type French tablature, spiral bound. You can order it from: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lyre/lyre.html Because original tablature versions of the Chilesotti book only appear to exist in occasionally-referenced, third-person rumors, I believe Paul O'Dette took a similar approach to his Ancient Airs recording: re-intabulating from Chilesotti's staff-notation version. If you don't mind staff notation, there was a modern edition published in 2002 as well. See: http://www.editionsorphee.com/lute/codice.html Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
I believe the remaining pieces are from the Chilesotti Lute Book (Da un Codice Lauten-buch), a book of musicologist Oscar Chilesotti's transcriptions of a lute manuscript, which was published in 1891. The original lute book has not been available publicly, if at all, for more than a century. Rumors of its whereabouts drift around from time to time. Arthur Ness will doubtless have something to say on that subject. In 1986 Paul O'Dette recorded a CD on Hyperion of all the pieces Respighi used, in the order they appear in Antiche Arie e Danze, titled Ancient Airs and Dances. He mentioned most, if not all, of the sources in the CD booklet, but I can't swear that if you buy the CD now you'll get the same booklet. In 1994 Dick Hoban's Lyre Music Publications published Oscar Chilesotti's Da un Codice Lauten-buch, Dick's re-intabulation of Chilesotti's transcriptions in neat, easy-to-read large-type French tablature, spiral bound. You can order it from: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lyre/lyre.html Dick's foreword mentions that numbers 59, 50, 49, 24 and 43 are in Respighi's first suite. On Sep 16, 2008, at 5:23 PM, ml wrote: I was listening to the 1st Suite by Respighi (Antiche Arie e Danze), and became curious: the first and second pieces are by Molinaro and V. Galilei, and the 3rd and 4th are Anon. Which pieces exactly are the originals used by Respighi? Where are they available (I mean the intabs, of course)? The first is played by POD in his Molinaro CD, and I could locate it in the SPES edition, but regarding the other three I have no idea where to look at... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Hi, I don't have it to hand, but POD (with RCC) recorded as many of Respighi's original sources as possible on a CD entitled Ancient Airs and Dances: http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Airs-Dances-Century-Songs/dp/B0001O2J22/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8s=musicqid=1221614950sr=1-5. I think the notes give fairly detailed sources. If you can't find it, and in the unlikely event that some other member can't give you detailed source information off the top of their heads, I can look for the CD and get it for you. Good luck! Chris. ml [EMAIL PROTECTED] 9/16/2008 8:23 PM Dear lutelisters, I was listening to the 1st Suite by Respighi (Antiche Arie e Danze), and became curious: the first and second pieces are by Molinaro and V. Galilei, and the 3rd and 4th are Anon. Which pieces exactly are the originals used by Respighi? Where are they available (I mean the intabs, of course)? The first is played by POD in his Molinaro CD, and I could locate it in the SPES edition, but regarding the other three I have no idea where to look at... Thank you very much for your answer, Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Respighi
Howard is correct. The first suite of Respighi does include the latter pieces from Chilesotti Lute Book. The other suites contain pieces from some of the airs du cour from Besard's Thesaurus Harmonicus. There is also some Gianoncelli, Roncalli, Caroso, and Garsi da Parma thrown into the mix as well. It is a nice recording, and Paul mentioned that it took him a good deal of time to hunt down all the original pieces from which Respighi had taken inspiration. ed At 06:40 PM 9/16/2008 -0700, howard posner wrote: I believe the remaining pieces are from the Chilesotti Lute Book (Da un Codice Lauten-buch), a book of musicologist Oscar Chilesotti's transcriptions of a lute manuscript, which was published in 1891. The original lute book has not been available publicly, if at all, for more than a century. Rumors of its whereabouts drift around from time to time. Arthur Ness will doubtless have something to say on that subject. In 1986 Paul O'Dette recorded a CD on Hyperion of all the pieces Respighi used, in the order they appear in Antiche Arie e Danze, titled Ancient Airs and Dances. He mentioned most, if not all, of the sources in the CD booklet, but I can't swear that if you buy the CD now you'll get the same booklet. In 1994 Dick Hoban's Lyre Music Publications published Oscar Chilesotti's Da un Codice Lauten-buch, Dick's re-intabulation of Chilesotti's transcriptions in neat, easy-to-read large-type French tablature, spiral bound. You can order it from: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lyre/lyre.html Dick's foreword mentions that numbers 59, 50, 49, 24 and 43 are in Respighi's first suite. On Sep 16, 2008, at 5:23 PM, ml wrote: I was listening to the 1st Suite by Respighi (Antiche Arie e Danze), and became curious: the first and second pieces are by Molinaro and V. Galilei, and the 3rd and 4th are Anon. Which pieces exactly are the originals used by Respighi? Where are they available (I mean the intabs, of course)? The first is played by POD in his Molinaro CD, and I could locate it in the SPES edition, but regarding the other three I have no idea where to look at... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1674 - Release Date: 9/16/2008 8:15 AM Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
