[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
On Oct 13, 2009, at 1:03 AM, <[1]chriswi...@yahoo.com> <[2]chriswi...@yahoo.com> wrote: Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished product, while smooth, often lacks life But would you really prefer to hear that flubbed note every time you listen to the same track? As for taking the life out of it by excessive editing, that, IMHO, is what a producer is for: to make sure that the recording has life. To know where to make the call, in other words. Different strokes for different folks I guess. The littlest mistake sometimes bugs me, when I listen to the same recording over and over. I'm talking about major names here. Nobody plays perfectly. That being said I enjoy funky live recordings a lot, especially if I had been there. cheers, Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [3]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:chriswi...@yahoo.com 3. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Isn't this google thing something. From George Thorogood. (Blues Joint), Guitar Player | August 01, 2003 | Cohen, Elliot Stephen What originally drew you to your trademark Gibson ES-125 guitar? They're the only ones that I can play! They stopped making them in 1970, so be sure to put this in your article: "Please don't steal George's guitars." I also use a Dobro pick, and they don't make those anymore, either. I'm screwed if my ... One needs to pay for the rest of the article, but, hah, I think we got the good part! What type of Dobro pick, what colour, and which pocket he keeps it in are still a mystery. I suspect he was purposefully vague so as to protect the elusive secret of his sound. I think he is also implying that it's is ok to steal one of his guitars, as long as it's not an ES-125! Now we just need his type, guage, and tension of string... - Original Message - From: "David Tayler" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2009 6:23 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age I have to say I would want to know exactly what kind of pick he had :) dt At 05:11 PM 10/12/2009, you wrote: I think the point George is making is that questions about minutiae are just that, and perhaps there are more important questions to be asked first. Sure the gear and technical details are interesting to many, but they easily get put before the music. While I'm not the biggest fan of George, I don't think that his choice of pick has a profound influence on the way he sounds. If I heard Django (ok, not possible, so maybe Stochelo Rosenberg) play a mind blowing solo, I certainly hope I would have the restraint not to ask, "That was great, what kind of pick was that you were using? And how exactly were you holding it? Ahhh.". On the other hand it can be difficult to ask meaningful non-technical, non-gear related questions. (e.g. "George, if your playing were a tree, what type of tree would it be and why?" or "What was the inspiration for 'I drink alone'?"). - Original Message ----- From: "vance wood" To: "Lute List >" ; "Stuart Walsh" Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age To someone who plays the instrument (what ever that instrument might be) things like picks, string tensions and string materials become important and interesting questions. As of this day and age discussion over the quality of reproduction Lutes, the way they are strung (octave or unison) and tunings with the use of additional frets are fodder for detailed discussion around here. If the professional being queried about such things thinks those subjects are irrelevant to the music then they are either lying or they do not want to reveal how they get the kind of sound that allows them to play the afore mentioned music in such a way that their performance becomes significant. After all thing are said and done, at least as far as "ancient music" is concerned, composers and their compositions and the matrix within which they occur have been discussed in great detail for many years. What is there about the music that we do not yet understand? What becomes important in this context is the performance; which brings us back to the original premise in the first sentence of this reply. - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Ron Andrico" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Ron Andrico wrote: I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. OK - but not the same genre and not really the same fundamental issue. As a parallel, if a lute player were asked for details of the string tensions they used, then maybe Thorogood's (?) response might be in order. But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - seem to fundamentally different from just about all other plectra... on any instrument. It's a bit like saying of someone who plays the lute with gloves on: look forget the gloves, just listen to the music, that's all that really matters. Ron Andrico www.mingarda.com > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: dwinh...@comcast.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection > that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented > performers- just go
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I have to say I would want to know exactly what kind of pick he had :) dt At 05:11 PM 10/12/2009, you wrote: >I think the point George is making is that questions about minutiae >are just that, and perhaps there are more important questions to be >asked first. Sure the gear and technical details are interesting to >many, but they easily get put before the music. While I'm not the >biggest fan of George, I don't think that his choice of pick has a >profound influence on the way he sounds. > >If I heard Django (ok, not possible, so maybe Stochelo Rosenberg) >play a mind blowing solo, I certainly hope I would have the >restraint not to ask, "That was great, what kind of pick was that >you were using? And how exactly were you holding it? Ahhh.". > >On the other hand it can be difficult to ask meaningful >non-technical, non-gear related questions. (e.g. "George, if your >playing were a tree, what type of tree would it be and why?" or >"What was the inspiration for 'I drink alone'?"). > > > >- Original Message - From: "vance wood" >To: "Lute List >" ; "Stuart Walsh" > >Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 8:19 PM >Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > >>To someone who plays the instrument (what ever that instrument >>might be) things like picks, string tensions and string materials >>become important and interesting questions. As of this day and age >>discussion over the quality of reproduction Lutes, the way they are >>strung (octave or unison) and tunings with the use of additional >>frets are fodder for detailed discussion around here. If the >>professional being queried about such things thinks those subjects >>are irrelevant to the music then they are either lying or they do >>not want to reveal how they get the kind of sound that allows them >>to play the afore mentioned music in such a way that their >>performance becomes significant. After all thing are said and >>done, at least as far as "ancient music" is concerned, composers >>and their compositions and the matrix within which they occur have >>been discussed in great detail for many years. What is there about >>the music that we do not yet understand? What becomes important in >>this context is the performance; which brings us back to the >>original premise in the first sentence of this reply. >>- Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" >>To: "Ron Andrico" >>Cc: ; >>Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:27 PM >>Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age >> >> >>>Ron Andrico wrote: >>>>I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player >>>>magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, >>>>George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more >>>>interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not >>>>discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. >>> >>> >>>OK - but not the same genre and not really the same fundamental >>>issue. As a parallel, if a lute player were asked for details of >>>the string tensions they used, then maybe Thorogood's (?) response >>>might be in order. >>> >>>But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - seem >>>to fundamentally different from just about all other plectra... >>>on any instrument. It's a bit like saying of someone who plays >>>the lute with gloves on: look forget the gloves, just listen to >>>the music, that's all that really matters. >>> >>> >>> >>>>Ron Andrico >>>>www.mingarda.com >>>> >>>>> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 >>>>> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >>>>> From: dwinh...@comcast.net >>>>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age >>>>> >>>>> Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection >>>>> that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented >>>>> performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like >>>>> the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings >>>>> done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django >>>>> Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings &g
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Yup--it is strangely ironic, but the lute solo market is very small and there is huge competition, so the I think there are other factors at play. The other irony is that making CDs a bar or two at a time reinforces very small phrases. dt At 06:30 AM 10/11/2009, you wrote: >David, et al, Has anyone caught the irony of the fact that in >our current musical culture, the (very commercial) rock music crowd >is inherently mistrustful of recordings that sound "too slick" while >we (very, very non-commercial) classical and early music types >obsess over making our recordings sound as technically perfect as >possible? The rockers, coming at their craft with virtually no >regard or even concept of historical performance, view an >overly-produced-sounding-recording as some kind of inauthentic >representation of the genre, while a large contingent of us HIPsters >strive to manufacture the most homogeneous product. That's gotta >say something about us. Chris --- O To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I don't have a day free to do it, and if I had a day free I would do something else, but it could be fairly easily done :) It is done in movies all the time when they put the sound in later if the set is noisy from the machinery. dt At 05:01 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote: >On Oct 11, 2009, at 7:52 AM, David Tayler wrote: > > By editing I mean the matching of different takes to remove all the > mistakes., not just changing camera angles. > >How can an edit be made so that it is undetectable with one camera? >Unless you dissolve to a different angle I don't see how it would be >done. There would be some slight jump in the visual. You would need two >cameras or two takes from different angles, wouldn't you? > >Unless I am missing something, I think we'll be able to enjoy one take >performances from people and know that they were not edited. I mean, >you see someone playing in their living room all from one angle, no >zooming, how do they edit two takes from that? >Ed Durbrow >Saitama, Japan >[1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >[2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > >-- > >References > >1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp >2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Stuart, --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Stuart Walsh wrote: > > But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - > seem to fundamentally different from just about all other > plectra.. on any instrument. It's a bit like saying > of someone who plays the lute with gloves on: look forget > the gloves, just listen to the music, that's all that really > matters. > ...or perhaps little thimbles with quills? ;-) Chris > > > > Ron Andrico > > www.mingarda.com > > > > > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 > -0700 > > > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > > > From: dwinh...@comcast.net > > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the > Golden Age > > > > > > Very well put indeed. To realize the > unforced, unedited perfection > > > that IS attainable- albeit by nearly > superhumanly talented > > > performers- just go back to earlier > "Golden Ages" of recording, like > > > the old 78 rpm days. Studio > recordings as well as live recordings > > > done in one take. At the moment I am > recalling the likes of Django > > > Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at > least were taped- earlier recordings > > > were not only uneditable but the > performers also had to tailer the > > > movements to the time constraints of > what could fit on one side of a > > > 78 record surface. Without > sacrificing performance standards!) > > > > > > Dan > > > > > > Unfortunately, this exceptional > cleanliness is produced via a > > > huge number of digital edits which > will be undetectable and therefore > > > in a sense, "natural." The problem > with this is that the edits where > > > never conceived of or performed as > an organic whole so that finished > > > product, while smooth, often lacks > life. Imagine if Martin Luther > > > King Jr. would have recorded his "I > have a dream" speech by reciting > > > it 50 times, re-saying certain > problem clauses or stumbled words, > > > then having some audio engineer > piece the various takes (some perhaps > > > comprising a single syllable) > together with 900 edits. Yes, his > > > voice as an object might technically > sound "better" once the quivers > > > and explosions were taken out, but > would it have the same sense of > > > outrage and urgency? What would be > the point? > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list > information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > __ > > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM > protection. [1]Sign up now. > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus > Database: 270.14.11/2430 - Release Date: 10/12/09 04:01:00 > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I think the point George is making is that questions about minutiae are just that, and perhaps there are more important questions to be asked first. Sure the gear and technical details are interesting to many, but they easily get put before the music. While I'm not the biggest fan of George, I don't think that his choice of pick has a profound influence on the way he sounds. If I heard Django (ok, not possible, so maybe Stochelo Rosenberg) play a mind blowing solo, I certainly hope I would have the restraint not to ask, "That was great, what kind of pick was that you were using? And how exactly were you holding it? Ahhh.". On the other hand it can be difficult to ask meaningful non-technical, non-gear related questions. (e.g. "George, if your playing were a tree, what type of tree would it be and why?" or "What was the inspiration for 'I drink alone'?"). - Original Message - From: "vance wood" To: "Lute List >" ; "Stuart Walsh" Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 8:19 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age To someone who plays the instrument (what ever that instrument might be) things like picks, string tensions and string materials become important and interesting questions. As of this day and age discussion over the quality of reproduction Lutes, the way they are strung (octave or unison) and tunings with the use of additional frets are fodder for detailed discussion around here. If the professional being queried about such things thinks those subjects are irrelevant to the music then they are either lying or they do not want to reveal how they get the kind of sound that allows them to play the afore mentioned music in such a way that their performance becomes significant. After all thing are said and done, at least as far as "ancient music" is concerned, composers and their compositions and the matrix within which they occur have been discussed in great detail for many years. What is there about the music that we do not yet understand? What becomes important in this context is the performance; which brings us back to the original premise in the first sentence of this reply. - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Ron Andrico" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Ron Andrico wrote: I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. OK - but not the same genre and not really the same fundamental issue. As a parallel, if a lute player were asked for details of the string tensions they used, then maybe Thorogood's (?) response might be in order. But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - seem to fundamentally different from just about all other plectra... on any instrument. It's a bit like saying of someone who plays the lute with gloves on: look forget the gloves, just listen to the music, that's all that really matters. Ron Andrico www.mingarda.com > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: dwinh...@comcast.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection > that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented > performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like > the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings > done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django > Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings > were not only uneditable but the performers also had to tailer the > movements to the time constraints of what could fit on one side of a > 78 record surface. Without sacrificing performance standards!) > > Dan > > Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a > huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore > in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where > never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished > product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther > King Jr. would have recorded his "I have a dream" speech by reciting > it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, > then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps > compris
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
To someone who plays the instrument (what ever that instrument might be) things like picks, string tensions and string materials become important and interesting questions. As of this day and age discussion over the quality of reproduction Lutes, the way they are strung (octave or unison) and tunings with the use of additional frets are fodder for detailed discussion around here. If the professional being queried about such things thinks those subjects are irrelevant to the music then they are either lying or they do not want to reveal how they get the kind of sound that allows them to play the afore mentioned music in such a way that their performance becomes significant. After all thing are said and done, at least as far as "ancient music" is concerned, composers and their compositions and the matrix within which they occur have been discussed in great detail for many years. What is there about the music that we do not yet understand? What becomes important in this context is the performance; which brings us back to the original premise in the first sentence of this reply. - Original Message - From: "Stuart Walsh" To: "Ron Andrico" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 6:27 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Ron Andrico wrote: I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. OK - but not the same genre and not really the same fundamental issue. As a parallel, if a lute player were asked for details of the string tensions they used, then maybe Thorogood's (?) response might be in order. But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - seem to fundamentally different from just about all other plectra... on any instrument. It's a bit like saying of someone who plays the lute with gloves on: look forget the gloves, just listen to the music, that's all that really matters. Ron Andrico www.mingarda.com > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: dwinh...@comcast.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection > that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented > performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like > the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings > done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django > Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings > were not only uneditable but the performers also had to tailer the > movements to the time constraints of what could fit on one side of a > 78 record surface. Without sacrificing performance standards!) > > Dan > > Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a > huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore > in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where > never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished > product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther > King Jr. would have recorded his "I have a dream" speech by reciting > it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, > then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps > comprising a single syllable) together with 900 edits. Yes, his > voice as an object might technically sound "better" once the quivers > and explosions were taken out, but would it have the same sense of > outrage and urgency? What would be the point? > > Chris > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.11/2430 - Release Date: 10/12/09 04:01:00 __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4501 (20091012) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4501 (20091012) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Ron Andrico wrote: I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. OK - but not the same genre and not really the same fundamental issue. As a parallel, if a lute player were asked for details of the string tensions they used, then maybe Thorogood's (?) response might be in order. But Crawford Young's ideas on plectra - on the face of it - seem to fundamentally different from just about all other plectra... on any instrument. It's a bit like saying of someone who plays the lute with gloves on: look forget the gloves, just listen to the music, that's all that really matters. Ron Andrico www.mingarda.com > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: dwinh...@comcast.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection > that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented > performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like > the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings > done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django > Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings > were not only uneditable but the performers also had to tailer the > movements to the time constraints of what could fit on one side of a > 78 record surface. Without sacrificing performance standards!) > > Dan > > Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a > huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore > in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where > never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished > product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther > King Jr. would have recorded his "I have a dream" speech by reciting > it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, > then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps > comprising a single syllable) together with 900 edits. Yes, his > voice as an object might technically sound "better" once the quivers > and explosions were taken out, but would it have the same sense of > outrage and urgency? What would be the point? > > Chris > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.11/2430 - Release Date: 10/12/09 04:01:00
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Morgan: Thank you...I think. Speaking of attention span, our new CD has more than 70 minutes of chansons that last two minutes or so. We had to search for additional verses, and I threw in a seven-minute lute solo just to demonstrate we weren't suffering from attention span deficit. I guess they had the same problem in 16th century France. Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com > From: mcornw...@ns.sympatico.ca > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > CC: praelu...@hotmail.com > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:45:30 -0300 > > Ron, > > With all those flashy edits, this is more MTV than EMTV. I suppose you are > trying to appeal to the younger generation who have a limited attention > span. > > Just kidding, I thought this was lovely. > > morgan > > p.s. I noticed tonight on EMTV the there is a special live tribute to the > Ramones on cittern! Should be exciting! I think it is called, 'If you > Baroque it, you'll pay for it'. It's on right after 'Laser Milano', the > laser light tribute to Francesco. > > > > - Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Andrico" > To: ; > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 8:34 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > > > David: > > We have been reading your observations with some interest and wondering > > a little why you chose to make them proximate to our video posting > > yesterday. The nicely edited video you posted last week did in fact > > inspire Donna to try her hand at making a silk purse from the > > ridiculously bad windows movie maker, which introduced some abrupt cuts > > that were made worse by Youtube. But we're puzzled why you didn't make > > your comments in reference to your own video. > > Our video was from a session at a local recording venue, which is an > > acoustically pleasing old church. The audio, which was unedited, was > > by a professional engineer but the video was from a few cheap cameras, > > one of which had an amateur behind it. Nothing so smooth as the very > > professional steady hand that zoomed so well on your Monteverdi video. > > We really had nothing to prove here - no position on meantone tuning or > > anything else that would have prompted Zappa to say "shut up and play > > your guitar". We were just interested in the reaction people might > > have if we spent a few moments cleaning up the visuals and shared what > > we thought was some good music played well with conviction and > > commitment. The experiment has produced some interesting results. > > Yes, we're bridging the gap a bit, as we are professionals who still > > have the true amateur's love for the music, but we are by no means > > new. (You forget that I used to play in a band with your old chum > > Brad-the teller of stories, so I know I've been around longer.) A > > difference is that we have not had the funding and support that some > > other early music professionals enjoy. Our CDs have minimal editing > > because we simply can't afford to go the typical route and piece > > together bits from many takes. Our CD, Divine Amarillis, was recorded, > > mixed and finished in ten hours of studio time with no edits. Our > > Oxford CD was made in six weeks from idea to delivery of the > > manufactured CD. Our most recent CD took a little more time but each > > piece was a complete take. We may be old-fashioned but we think this > > approach gives the music a chance. > > We'll continue to experiment with visuals, since it seems to have > > become the standard, a fact reinforced by your pronouncement, but our > > music is the real thing. > > Best wishes, > > Ron Andrico > > www.mignarda.com > __ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Guy, There's a storm in somewhere in Hoppy's Vieux Gaultier CD taht they didn't bother to take out. One of my all time favorite lute CDs. Chris --- On Mon, 10/12/09, Guy Smith wrote: > From: Guy Smith > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > To: nedma...@aol.com, chriswi...@yahoo.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, > vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 2:14 PM > One problem is that a lot of EM > recordings are not done in a studio. They > are done in churches or what have you, which are not > acoustically isolated > and are subject to things like traffic noise. I've got a > copy of a > performing version of a Baltimore Consort piece which has > "Traffic" penciled > in towards the end. It was a note (by Ronn, I think) to > splice in another > take there, because of traffic noise. > > Guy > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > On Behalf > Of nedma...@aol.com > Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 11:04 AM > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com; > lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; > vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Hi Chris, > > > > Thanks for bearing with my lack of > experience listening to recent EM > recordings. I'm intigued by what > you say and will be doing more > listening. I think that the high > cost of getting an orchestra into a > studio for recording has resulted in a > good thing for later repetoire - > more recordings done live. Of > course there is still editing, but if > the recording is made from only two or > three performances, it is > necessarily limited. EM > being done by smaller ensembles, I guess that > the studio is still the main recording > venue. And perhaps, as you say, > the editing is overdone and leads to > sterile performances. (Of > course, this 'over' use of editing > predates digital, witness Glenn > Gould's recordings - which I still find > thrilling). There is, too, the > problem that many of us don't have the > opportunity to hear much EM > live. For us - other than our own > playing - recordings are our only > reference for what the music sounds > like. You - and other > professional performers - are not under > that disadvantage. > > > > Ned > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Ron, With all those flashy edits, this is more MTV than EMTV. I suppose you are trying to appeal to the younger generation who have a limited attention span. Just kidding, I thought this was lovely. morgan p.s. I noticed tonight on EMTV the there is a special live tribute to the Ramones on cittern! Should be exciting! I think it is called, 'If you Baroque it, you'll pay for it'. It's on right after 'Laser Milano', the laser light tribute to Francesco. - Original Message - From: "Ron Andrico" To: ; Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 8:34 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age David: We have been reading your observations with some interest and wondering a little why you chose to make them proximate to our video posting yesterday. The nicely edited video you posted last week did in fact inspire Donna to try her hand at making a silk purse from the ridiculously bad windows movie maker, which introduced some abrupt cuts that were made worse by Youtube. But we're puzzled why you didn't make your comments in reference to your own video. Our video was from a session at a local recording venue, which is an acoustically pleasing old church. The audio, which was unedited, was by a professional engineer but the video was from a few cheap cameras, one of which had an amateur behind it. Nothing so smooth as the very professional steady hand that zoomed so well on your Monteverdi video. We really had nothing to prove here - no position on meantone tuning or anything else that would have prompted Zappa to say "shut up and play your guitar". We were just interested in the reaction people might have if we spent a few moments cleaning up the visuals and shared what we thought was some good music played well with conviction and commitment. The experiment has produced some interesting results. Yes, we're bridging the gap a bit, as we are professionals who still have the true amateur's love for the music, but we are by no means new. (You forget that I used to play in a band with your old chum Brad-the teller of stories, so I know I've been around longer.) A difference is that we have not had the funding and support that some other early music professionals enjoy. Our CDs have minimal editing because we simply can't afford to go the typical route and piece together bits from many takes. Our CD, Divine Amarillis, was recorded, mixed and finished in ten hours of studio time with no edits. Our Oxford CD was made in six weeks from idea to delivery of the manufactured CD. Our most recent CD took a little more time but each piece was a complete take. We may be old-fashioned but we think this approach gives the music a chance. We'll continue to experiment with visuals, since it seems to have become the standard, a fact reinforced by your pronouncement, but our music is the real thing. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Not only early music, this is an issue with art music in general, especially chamber music. The art-music status quo simply is unamplified, acoustic instruments. Astute hearers seem to tend to favor the ambience of a responsive hall (or at least believe they do). Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Guy Smith > Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 2:14 PM > To: nedma...@aol.com; chriswi...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; > vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > One problem is that a lot of EM recordings are not done in a studio. They > are done in churches or what have you, which are not acoustically isolated > and are subject to things like traffic noise. I've got a copy of a > performing version of a Baltimore Consort piece which has "Traffic" > penciled > in towards the end. It was a note (by Ronn, I think) to splice in another > take there, because of traffic noise. > > Guy > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf > Of nedma...@aol.com > Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 11:04 AM > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > >Hi Chris, > > > >Thanks for bearing with my lack of experience listening to recent EM >recordings. I'm intigued by what you say and will be doing more >listening. I think that the high cost of getting an orchestra into a >studio for recording has resulted in a good thing for later repetoire - >more recordings done live. Of course there is still editing, but if >the recording is made from only two or three performances, it is >necessarily limited. EM being done by smaller ensembles, I guess that >the studio is still the main recording venue. And perhaps, as you say, >the editing is overdone and leads to sterile performances. (Of >course, this 'over' use of editing predates digital, witness Glenn >Gould's recordings - which I still find thrilling). There is, too, the >problem that many of us don't have the opportunity to hear much EM >live. For us - other than our own playing - recordings are our only >reference for what the music sounds like. You - and other >professional performers - are not under that disadvantage. > > > >Ned > >-- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
One problem is that a lot of EM recordings are not done in a studio. They are done in churches or what have you, which are not acoustically isolated and are subject to things like traffic noise. I've got a copy of a performing version of a Baltimore Consort piece which has "Traffic" penciled in towards the end. It was a note (by Ronn, I think) to splice in another take there, because of traffic noise. Guy -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of nedma...@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 11:04 AM To: chriswi...@yahoo.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Hi Chris, Thanks for bearing with my lack of experience listening to recent EM recordings. I'm intigued by what you say and will be doing more listening. I think that the high cost of getting an orchestra into a studio for recording has resulted in a good thing for later repetoire - more recordings done live. Of course there is still editing, but if the recording is made from only two or three performances, it is necessarily limited. EM being done by smaller ensembles, I guess that the studio is still the main recording venue. And perhaps, as you say, the editing is overdone and leads to sterile performances. (Of course, this 'over' use of editing predates digital, witness Glenn Gould's recordings - which I still find thrilling). There is, too, the problem that many of us don't have the opportunity to hear much EM live. For us - other than our own playing - recordings are our only reference for what the music sounds like. You - and other professional performers - are not under that disadvantage. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Hi Chris, Thanks for bearing with my lack of experience listening to recent EM recordings. I'm intigued by what you say and will be doing more listening. I think that the high cost of getting an orchestra into a studio for recording has resulted in a good thing for later repetoire - more recordings done live. Of course there is still editing, but if the recording is made from only two or three performances, it is necessarily limited. EM being done by smaller ensembles, I guess that the studio is still the main recording venue. And perhaps, as you say, the editing is overdone and leads to sterile performances. (Of course, this 'over' use of editing predates digital, witness Glenn Gould's recordings - which I still find thrilling). There is, too, the problem that many of us don't have the opportunity to hear much EM live. For us - other than our own playing - recordings are our only reference for what the music sounds like. You - and other professional performers - are not under that disadvantage. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
..And one of my great loves is classical mandolin, its last "golden era" coinciding with the dawn of the pre-electric recording industry. Note the performances of composed, virtuosic art music by Raffaele Calace, Giovanni Giovale, Samuel Siegel, Valentine Abt, Bernado de Pace, et al. to cylinders and 78s. Similarly delicious to those pioneers of jazz and similarly less edited. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Ron Andrico > Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:48 PM > To: dwinh...@comcast.net; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > >Dan: >I'm pleased that you made mention of this. One of my great loves is >jazz guitar from the 30s, Eddie Lang, Dick McDonough, Carl Kress, >George van Eps and Teddy Bunn. These guys were playing a style known >as chord melody, which is really improvising in three or four parts >with good voice leading. I feel that their mode of improvisation, >creating instrumentally brilliant settings of popular songs, makes them >direct decendents of 16th century lutenists with their intabulations of >chansons and motets. >While it is true that the performance on a 78 record was not edited, in >most cases multiple takes were played. They just kept and issued the >best one. >I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player >magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, >George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more >interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not >discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. >Ron Andrico >www.mingarda.com > > > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu >> From: dwinh...@comcast.net >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age >> >> Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection >> that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented >> performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like >> the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings >> done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django >> Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings >> were not only uneditable but the performers also had to tailer the >> movements to the time constraints of what could fit on one side of a >> 78 record surface. Without sacrificing performance standards!) >> >> Dan >> >> Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a >> huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore >> in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where >> never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished >> product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther >> King Jr. would have recorded his "I have a dream" speech by reciting >> it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, >> then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps >> comprising a single syllable) together with 900 edits. Yes, his >> voice as an object might technically sound "better" once the quivers >> and explosions were taken out, but would it have the same sense of >> outrage and urgency? What would be the point? >> >> Chris >> >> -- >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > __ > >Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. >-- > > References > >1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Dan: I'm pleased that you made mention of this. One of my great loves is jazz guitar from the 30s, Eddie Lang, Dick McDonough, Carl Kress, George van Eps and Teddy Bunn. These guys were playing a style known as chord melody, which is really improvising in three or four parts with good voice leading. I feel that their mode of improvisation, creating instrumentally brilliant settings of popular songs, makes them direct decendents of 16th century lutenists with their intabulations of chansons and motets. While it is true that the performance on a 78 record was not edited, in most cases multiple takes were played. They just kept and issued the best one. I'll add my two cents worth on the other thread. In a Guitar Player magazine interview from the 80s, when asked what kind of pick he used, George Thorogood's response was, "If you can't think of something more interesting to talk about, this interview is over." I guess we're not discussing the same genre but amusing anyway. Ron Andrico www.mingarda.com > Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:26:08 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: dwinh...@comcast.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection > that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented > performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like > the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings > done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django > Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings > were not only uneditable but the performers also had to tailer the > movements to the time constraints of what could fit on one side of a > 78 record surface. Without sacrificing performance standards!) > > Dan > > Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a > huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore > in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where > never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished > product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther > King Jr. would have recorded his "I have a dream" speech by reciting > it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, > then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps > comprising a single syllable) together with 900 edits. Yes, his > voice as an object might technically sound "better" once the quivers > and explosions were taken out, but would it have the same sense of > outrage and urgency? What would be the point? > > Chris > > -- > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
David: Thanks very much for your clarification. I think I know what you mean. Ron www.mignarda.com > Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2009 10:22:57 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Ron--sorry about the timing, there is always a video coming out, I > was thinking specifically about some commercial early music video > which shall remain nameless. I should have waited for a lull. > dt > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsofts powerful SPAM protection. [1]Sign up now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Very well put indeed. To realize the unforced, unedited perfection that IS attainable- albeit by nearly superhumanly talented performers- just go back to earlier "Golden Ages" of recording, like the old 78 rpm days. Studio recordings as well as live recordings done in one take. At the moment I am recalling the likes of Django Reinhardt and Art Tatum (who at least were taped- earlier recordings were not only uneditable but the performers also had to tailer the movements to the time constraints of what could fit on one side of a 78 record surface. Without sacrificing performance standards!) Dan Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther King Jr. would have recorded his "I have a dream" speech by reciting it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps comprising a single syllable) together with 900 edits. Yes, his voice as an object might technically sound "better" once the quivers and explosions were taken out, but would it have the same sense of outrage and urgency? What would be the point? Chris -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Hi Ned, You should definitely listen to some new recordings. One of the things I find exciting about early music is that new information is constantly coming to light that makes us re-think the way we approach the music. Entire genres that were once dismissed as mere trifles can become compelling gems when approached from a different perspective. You would find more of what I'm talking about on more recent examples. I'm not saying that every single EM recording is pure oatmeal. I'm saying that the frame of reference for the standard of excellence has shifted from musical interpretation to technical cleanliness. Recordings nowadays are expected to be clean. Case closed. Unfortunately, this exceptional cleanliness is produced via a huge number of digital edits which will be undetectable and therefore in a sense, "natural." The problem with this is that the edits where never conceived of or performed as an organic whole so that finished product, while smooth, often lacks life. Imagine if Martin Luther King Jr. would have recorded his "I have a dream" speech by reciting it 50 times, re-saying certain problem clauses or stumbled words, then having some audio engineer piece the various takes (some perhaps comprising a single syllable) together with 900 edits. Yes, his voice as an object might technically sound "better" once the quivers and explosions were taken out, but would it have the same sense of outrage and urgency? What would be the point? Chris --- On Mon, 10/12/09, nedma...@aol.com wrote: > From: nedma...@aol.com > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Date: Monday, October 12, 2009, 9:51 AM > "Meanwhile, big > names in our field try to get everything to sound > even". > > > > Since my interest in the lute and early > music has only recently been > re-awakened, most of my lute and early > music recordings are from the > 1960-70s. As I hear more recent > recordings in our field, I'll listen > for what Chris is describing. I > wonder if the reference is to both > ensemble and solo recordings. . . I > will say that I have some HIP > recordings of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven > works that I don't find bland > in the least. Actually, > to my ear, some of the most natural sounding > recordings that I have. > > > > Ned > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
"Meanwhile, big names in our field try to get everything to sound even". Since my interest in the lute and early music has only recently been re-awakened, most of my lute and early music recordings are from the 1960-70s. As I hear more recent recordings in our field, I'll listen for what Chris is describing. I wonder if the reference is to both ensemble and solo recordings. . . I will say that I have some HIP recordings of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven works that I don't find bland in the least. Actually, to my ear, some of the most natural sounding recordings that I have. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
MP4 has been around since 2001. Basically, all these compression schemes sound fine at high bit rates, and at low bit rates some of them sound less worse. dt At 08:23 PM 10/11/2009, you wrote: >From: Rob MacKillop [1]luteplay...@googlemail.com > I haven't quite reached a million hits (wow!) but the number of plays > far outnumbers the number of CDs I've sold, or mp3 files downloaded. >It > is the primary medium for reaching people. For those of us interested > in sound, this is not a good thing as the sound tends to be poor, and > usually played on crap computer speakers. > >Hello Rob, > >Take a look at this link >[2]http://prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/343/Over-the-Limit-2-Th >e-End-of-the-Loudness-War.aspx >to an article by Rip Rowan of prorec fame. > >In the comments section at the bottom, mp3-is-not-the-answer mentions a >hope for a new mp4 format that will be standardized and have much >better and consistant sound quality than the current non-standardized >mp3s. > >Computer speakers themselves do tend to be low-end. But don't a lot >people download the music from the computer to play it on their mp3 >players through decent headphones/earbuds? > >You might like to check out the archives to the Linux Audio Users group >or join their mailing list to find out some of the interesting things >going on in the world of music played on and made by computers. >[3]http://lad.linuxaudio.org/subscribe/lau.html > >Best, >"The Other" Stephen Stubbs. > >-- > >References > >1. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com >2. > http://prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/343/Over-the-Limit-2-The-End-of-the-Loudness-War.aspx >3. http://lad.linuxaudio.org/subscribe/lau.html > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Fuzz tone covers a multitude of sins. Gary - Original Message - From: To: ; ; Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 2:45 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age Ned, --- On Sun, 10/11/09, nedma...@aol.com wrote: From: nedma...@aol.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age To: chriswi...@yahoo.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, vidan...@sbcglobal.net Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 10:50 AM "The rockers. . .view an overly-produced-sounding-recording as some kind of inauthentic representation of the genre. . ." Unless a rock recording is from a live performance, this seems to me an ingenuous view. Even on a performance stage, rock musicians are totally reliant on electronic processing for their sound; in a studio the processing is even far greater. If it doesn't sound "slick" to the consumer, it's because the engineers have taken great care to make sure it doesn't. Just my view. Quite right. But that's why I was careful to write "overly-produced-_sounding_" rather than just "overly-produced." Many rock/pop artists sound absolutely wretched without editing and a bunch of studio bells and whistles. There's lots of overdubbing, too. None the less, some sort of unpolished character is expected. Meanwhile, big names in our field try to get everything to sound even. The result is no less artificial than a rock/pop recording, but it ends up being far blander. Its a professional standard that never existed in early music and is unfortunately detrimental to the art. Hmmm, maybe we should try to remember who sells more and think twice before editing out every last fret buzz. Chris Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.421 / Virus Database: 270.14.8/2423 - Release Date: 10/08/09 18:33:00
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
From: Rob MacKillop [1]luteplay...@googlemail.com I haven't quite reached a million hits (wow!) but the number of plays far outnumbers the number of CDs I've sold, or mp3 files downloaded. It is the primary medium for reaching people. For those of us interested in sound, this is not a good thing as the sound tends to be poor, and usually played on crap computer speakers. Hello Rob, Take a look at this link [2]http://prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/343/Over-the-Limit-2-Th e-End-of-the-Loudness-War.aspx to an article by Rip Rowan of prorec fame. In the comments section at the bottom, mp3-is-not-the-answer mentions a hope for a new mp4 format that will be standardized and have much better and consistant sound quality than the current non-standardized mp3s. Computer speakers themselves do tend to be low-end. But don't a lot people download the music from the computer to play it on their mp3 players through decent headphones/earbuds? You might like to check out the archives to the Linux Audio Users group or join their mailing list to find out some of the interesting things going on in the world of music played on and made by computers. [3]http://lad.linuxaudio.org/subscribe/lau.html Best, "The Other" Stephen Stubbs. -- References 1. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com 2. http://prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryId/343/Over-the-Limit-2-The-End-of-the-Loudness-War.aspx 3. http://lad.linuxaudio.org/subscribe/lau.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Ned, --- On Sun, 10/11/09, nedma...@aol.com wrote: > From: nedma...@aol.com > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > To: chriswi...@yahoo.com, lute@cs.dartmouth.edu, vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009, 10:50 AM > "The rockers. . > .view an overly-produced-sounding-recording as some > kind of inauthentic representation of the > genre. . ." > > Unless a rock recording is from a live > performance, this seems to me an > ingenuous view. Even on a > performance stage, rock musicians are > totally reliant on electronic processing > for their sound; in a studio > the processing is even far greater. > If it doesn't sound "slick" to the > consumer, it's because the engineers have > taken great care to make sure > it doesn't. Just my view. > > Quite right. But that's why I was careful to write "overly-produced-_sounding_" rather than just "overly-produced." Many rock/pop artists sound absolutely wretched without editing and a bunch of studio bells and whistles. There's lots of overdubbing, too. None the less, some sort of unpolished character is expected. Meanwhile, big names in our field try to get everything to sound even. The result is no less artificial than a rock/pop recording, but it ends up being far blander. Its a professional standard that never existed in early music and is unfortunately detrimental to the art. Hmmm, maybe we should try to remember who sells more and think twice before editing out every last fret buzz. Chris > > Ned > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
> Maybe that is true, but there are thousands of CDs--maybe in some > sense those recordings are some sort of dream world :) > > I don't think the unedited videos will stop. I just think we are now > in a new stage. Editing is a feature of most commercial releases, for several decades now, long before digital technology entered the scene. Audio editing used to be a significant challenge using analog procedures, but with todays digital editing software it is far simpler. Video editing, even with software, should be more difficult as the several parallel video and audio tracks will have different splice points for maximal smoothness. -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Maybe that is true, but there are thousands of CDs--maybe in some sense those recordings are some sort of dream world :) I don't think the unedited videos will stop. I just think we are now in a new stage. And the former one was like a real window into what we were really doing, or about as real as it could be. dt And >On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:17 AM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: > > >I've not yet put myself playing on line, but rather hope that > > one day > >I'll feel confident enough to do so. I doubt that I'll ever > > have the > >equipment necessary to edit myself. But I also wonder if I > > would want > >to do that. I think now (will my views change?) that if I'm not > > able > >to give a presentable performance of a piece without editing, > > that I > >would simply wait until I were able to. Thus far, I've assumed > > that > >everything I've seen on line has been unedited, and I've been very > >impressed by these performances. > >If you're primary concern is self-promotion, or if you live in a >world where no differentiation exists between iconography and real >life, then yes, you're going to want to edit yourself. But if >neither the arrogance rat-race nor the dream world appeal to you, >and all you want to do is share your music-making with others, warts >and all, just for the love of the lute, which I've always believef >was the reason for having the lute list in the first place, then I >don't see that the "Golden Age Is Over." That's nonsense. > >Best, > >David Rastall >dlu...@verizon.net >www.rastallmusic.com > > >-- > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
From the heart and to the point. I agree wholeheartedly. It's what I will tell my students, when any of them feel the need to record & present themselves. The amateur (in the best, original sense of the word) videos seem to also be a new "venue" for student concerts, of a sort. > I've not yet put myself playing on line, but rather hope that one day >I'll feel confident enough to do so. I doubt that I'll ever have the >equipment necessary to edit myself. But I also wonder if I would want >to do that. I think now (will my views change?) that if I'm not able >to give a presentable performance of a piece without editing, that I >would simply wait until I were able to. Thus far, I've assumed that >everything I've seen on line has been unedited, and I've been very >impressed by these performances. > >Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Ron--sorry about the timing, there is always a video coming out, I was thinking specifically about some commercial early music video which shall remain nameless. I should have waited for a lull. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
"The rockers. . .view an overly-produced-sounding-recording as some kind of inauthentic representation of the genre. . ." Unless a rock recording is from a live performance, this seems to me an ingenuous view. Even on a performance stage, rock musicians are totally reliant on electronic processing for their sound; in a studio the processing is even far greater. If it doesn't sound "slick" to the consumer, it's because the engineers have taken great care to make sure it doesn't. Just my view. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
On Oct 11, 2009, at 10:17 AM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: >I've not yet put myself playing on line, but rather hope that > one day >I'll feel confident enough to do so. I doubt that I'll ever > have the >equipment necessary to edit myself. But I also wonder if I > would want >to do that. I think now (will my views change?) that if I'm not > able >to give a presentable performance of a piece without editing, > that I >would simply wait until I were able to. Thus far, I've assumed > that >everything I've seen on line has been unedited, and I've been very >impressed by these performances. If you're primary concern is self-promotion, or if you live in a world where no differentiation exists between iconography and real life, then yes, you're going to want to edit yourself. But if neither the arrogance rat-race nor the dream world appeal to you, and all you want to do is share your music-making with others, warts and all, just for the love of the lute, which I've always believef was the reason for having the lute list in the first place, then I don't see that the "Golden Age Is Over." That's nonsense. Best, David Rastall dlu...@verizon.net www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I've not yet put myself playing on line, but rather hope that one day I'll feel confident enough to do so. I doubt that I'll ever have the equipment necessary to edit myself. But I also wonder if I would want to do that. I think now (will my views change?) that if I'm not able to give a presentable performance of a piece without editing, that I would simply wait until I were able to. Thus far, I've assumed that everything I've seen on line has been unedited, and I've been very impressed by these performances. Ned -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
David, et al, Has anyone caught the irony of the fact that in our current musical culture, the (very commercial) rock music crowd is inherently mistrustful of recordings that sound "too slick" while we (very, very non-commercial) classical and early music types obsess over making our recordings sound as technically perfect as possible? The rockers, coming at their craft with virtually no regard or even concept of historical performance, view an overly-produced-sounding-recording as some kind of inauthentic representation of the genre, while a large contingent of us HIPsters strive to manufacture the most homogeneous product. That's gotta say something about us. Chris --- On Sat, 10/10/09, David Tayler wrote: > From: David Tayler > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" > Date: Saturday, October 10, 2009, 6:52 PM > I'm not saying it is a bad thing, I'm > just saying it is the end of an > era. We have a number of unedited videos from this period, > and now it > is not really possible to tell new videos are edited or > not. Or > people want them edited, and so on. > I think this period served as a sort of reality check > compared to > years and years of heavily edited CDs. There is no > stopping > technology, and in the future we will see the same thing in > video, > flawless performances, and so on. > > I don't consider reverb or removing refrigerator sounds > editing so > music as processing. Same goes for color correction. By > editing I > mean the matching of different takes to remove all the > mistakes., not > just changing camera angles. > > Interestingly enough, even in the dawn of the CD age, there > never was > a similar period--the digital audio was sometimes even > rerecorded to > tape, cut with scissors, and then put back on CD. There are > also > early CDs before the development of digital crossfade tools > where the > takes are just > spliced together with no fade--just a kind of bumping > sound. > > I think what Rob is saying about the real sound is true, > although > obviously the amount of reverb is variable. But CDs aren't > "true" in > the performance sense. > I do look forward to 3D! I'm already experimentingit is > almost here > And hopefully live concerts will continue. > I think what CDs ceated was kind of a class issue--well > funded > artists with big recording companies could produce near > perfect recordings. > I'm seeing stuff on the net now that obviously cost tens of > thousands > of dollars, and makes the artists look very good indeed. > And hey, > maybe that is a good thing. I'll go work on learning my new > "hair" plugin. > And lose me a few pounds :) > dt > > > > > Hey, maybe it is a good thing. > At 02:31 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote: > > I don't know, David. When was it decided > that the artistic > > performance should be real? Sounds like a > New Puritanism to me, and > > these movements rarely last long. I agree > that it has been an > > interesting period, and one that I > imagine will continue for some time > > yet. > > > > > > > > Editing: I only ever added reverb, which > I wouldn't say effected the > > performance. My use of reverb lessened > over time, and now I use none or > > so little it is almost impossible to > detect. The problem is that with > > no sound shaping, just a dry recording, > the resultant sound did not > > sound like it did when I was playing. So > which is the real sound? None > > of the above. The use of reverb was an > attempt to give an impression of > > the sound I heard, but I never managed > it. Of course, I spent no more > > than 100 GB Pounds... > > > > > > > > I always viewed the video phenomenon as a > meeting in the park or in the > > bar, where a few of us share a few tunes > and chat about our passion for > > music. I never saw it as a professional > promo. > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > -- > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
David: We have been reading your observations with some interest and wondering a little why you chose to make them proximate to our video posting yesterday. The nicely edited video you posted last week did in fact inspire Donna to try her hand at making a silk purse from the ridiculously bad windows movie maker, which introduced some abrupt cuts that were made worse by Youtube. But we're puzzled why you didn't make your comments in reference to your own video. Our video was from a session at a local recording venue, which is an acoustically pleasing old church. The audio, which was unedited, was by a professional engineer but the video was from a few cheap cameras, one of which had an amateur behind it. Nothing so smooth as the very professional steady hand that zoomed so well on your Monteverdi video. We really had nothing to prove here - no position on meantone tuning or anything else that would have prompted Zappa to say "shut up and play your guitar". We were just interested in the reaction people might have if we spent a few moments cleaning up the visuals and shared what we thought was some good music played well with conviction and commitment. The experiment has produced some interesting results. Yes, we're bridging the gap a bit, as we are professionals who still have the true amateur's love for the music, but we are by no means new. (You forget that I used to play in a band with your old chum Brad-the teller of stories, so I know I've been around longer.) A difference is that we have not had the funding and support that some other early music professionals enjoy. Our CDs have minimal editing because we simply can't afford to go the typical route and piece together bits from many takes. Our CD, Divine Amarillis, was recorded, mixed and finished in ten hours of studio time with no edits. Our Oxford CD was made in six weeks from idea to delivery of the manufactured CD. Our most recent CD took a little more time but each piece was a complete take. We may be old-fashioned but we think this approach gives the music a chance. We'll continue to experiment with visuals, since it seems to have become the standard, a fact reinforced by your pronouncement, but our music is the real thing. Best wishes, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com > Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 23:10:39 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > The video boom will continue, you will just see more and more edited > stuff, along with some new names, and some famous names as well. > But many of the internationally known names on all > instruments--especially piano and violin, but lute, viol, > harpsichord, etc, have been waiting for the editing tools to be > available, and now that they are here, I think you will see a lot of > players of all instruments join in. > > I can tell you from a technical point of vview, it is really > impossible to tell if it has been edited. > > So it is just the end of one age and the beginning of another. I > never liked CDs, because of all the editing--between 700 and 2,000 > per CD, and it is a shame to see video go the same way. > > But there will be many beautiful performances captured, and people > all over the world can see it. > > dt > > At 10:57 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote: > > >I agree with Rob's point of view, Being alone far from people and > >cities, videos are may way to share music with others, and an open > >window on the world (so many people I "virtually" met since I post) > >and of course not a professional promo, as I've nothing to sale... > >;-) Sharing passion... > >(I'm near one million views now... I never believe it could be > >possible one day, but so little regarding some rock and roll vids...) > >Golden age ? over ? why... For my sake I will go one as long as I > >can do it. and I don't see so many "professional" edited videos of > >lute music. Yes a few... But I would love to have more and more of > >Jacob Herringman, Paul O'Dette, Robert Barto (some already, thanks > >Danny, and for Ronn too) but not enough... > >V. > > > >- Original Message - From: "Rob MacKillop" > > > >> I always viewed the video phenomenon as a meeting in the park or in the > >> bar, where a few of us share a few tunes and chat about our passion for > >> music. I never saw it as a professional promo. > >> Rob > > > > > > > >
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I imagine the 'folk' culture of playing to a camera in your kitchen/computer room, whatever, will continue, and yes, we will have posh promo videos from 'signed' artists and would-bees, especially young recently-qualified students looking to make their mark. The casual viewer can look forward to a lot more videos. I haven't quite reached a million hits (wow!) but the number of plays far outnumbers the number of CDs I've sold, or mp3 files downloaded. It is the primary medium for reaching people. For those of us interested in sound, this is not a good thing as the sound tends to be poor, and usually played on crap computer speakers. I remember reading about some studies a computer science lab had done on audience perception at a classical concert. 90 per cent was visual. Only 7 percent was aural. And of that 7 per cent, 83 per cent was given to the obvious mistakes! It is little wonder videos are so popular, and why some artists want to hide their mistakes... Rob PS David, glad you liked my De Visee! I can't play it now, so it's good to have a reminder! Proof for my grandchildren :-) -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
The video boom will continue, you will just see more and more edited stuff, along with some new names, and some famous names as well. But many of the internationally known names on all instruments--especially piano and violin, but lute, viol, harpsichord, etc, have been waiting for the editing tools to be available, and now that they are here, I think you will see a lot of players of all instruments join in. I can tell you from a technical point of vview, it is really impossible to tell if it has been edited. So it is just the end of one age and the beginning of another. I never liked CDs, because of all the editing--between 700 and 2,000 per CD, and it is a shame to see video go the same way. But there will be many beautiful performances captured, and people all over the world can see it. dt At 10:57 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote: >I agree with Rob's point of view, Being alone far from people and >cities, videos are may way to share music with others, and an open >window on the world (so many people I "virtually" met since I post) >and of course not a professional promo, as I've nothing to sale... >;-) Sharing passion... >(I'm near one million views now... I never believe it could be >possible one day, but so little regarding some rock and roll vids...) >Golden age ? over ? why... For my sake I will go one as long as I >can do it. and I don't see so many "professional" edited videos of >lute music. Yes a few... But I would love to have more and more of >Jacob Herringman, Paul O'Dette, Robert Barto (some already, thanks >Danny, and for Ronn too) but not enough... >V. > >- Original Message - From: "Rob MacKillop" > >> I always viewed the video phenomenon as a meeting in the park or in the >> bar, where a few of us share a few tunes and chat about our passion for >> music. I never saw it as a professional promo. >> Rob > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I agree with Rob's point of view, Being alone far from people and cities, videos are may way to share music with others, and an open window on the world (so many people I "virtually" met since I post) and of course not a professional promo, as I've nothing to sale... ;-) Sharing passion... (I'm near one million views now... I never believe it could be possible one day, but so little regarding some rock and roll vids...) Golden age ? over ? why... For my sake I will go one as long as I can do it. and I don't see so many "professional" edited videos of lute music. Yes a few... But I would love to have more and more of Jacob Herringman, Paul O'Dette, Robert Barto (some already, thanks Danny, and for Ronn too) but not enough... V. - Original Message - From: "Rob MacKillop" I always viewed the video phenomenon as a meeting in the park or in the bar, where a few of us share a few tunes and chat about our passion for music. I never saw it as a professional promo. Rob To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I'm recording sound on separate device (zoom H2) as integrated mics on the camera aren't good enough, but I'm using wave files coming out the zoom without any treatment, no reverb or any ehancement. The only editing I'm doing is to cut edges and add titles, and have a fade out at the end on sound file (but often sound is already over) All my vids are "one shot" (not the first one, I make some takes (many...) and keep the one I think is the best (or the not worst... ) So what you hear is what you see and vice versa. Perhaps I should add some reverb to make my vids more "pro" but it is not my aim, neither my taste. The only reverb I like is when recording in a natural reverbing place (church...) Val ;-) - Original Message - From: "David van Ooijen" To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 10:35 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:37 PM, wikla wrote: I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is not what you hear. How can you do that? My tiny digital camera doesn't have a very good .. steep to me; I cannot imagine how to replace the sound track. Perhaps better so? In a way, yes. What I do, and others too, is record the audio track on a seperate device, and only synchronise it with the video after editing/adding reverb/whatever. Another option is to seperate the audio from the video, treat it and then reconnect it. All those bedrooms that sound like churches, never wondered about that? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I like how the conversation can flag but we all know the playing continues. Does anyone else see the lutenet as an afterdinner conversation? In my analogy sometimes we wander off to a room and mention we have a tune going, so to speak. It's in that spirit that I don't feel the need to polish things up. Or, more prohibitively, wait the 50 years until I've got everything polished up. Sean On Oct 10, 2009, at 3:58 PM, David Tayler wrote: Dan's computer room, Valery's kitchen table, Rob's amazing Visee from the original score, Sean's dark closeups, and the others, this is the golden age for me. dt I didn't. No reverbs or sound enhancements or edits. It took a good many (ok, a bad many ;^) takes to get a reasonable piece together. Unfortunately the ones in the rep I like are often 3-6 minutes in length. By the end of the session I couldn't believe my exhaustion. And plenty of wincing later on the elimination rounds. Still, I see it as a fantastic tool if only for personal education purposes as well as feedback from a peer group I can generally trust. Between Valery's kitchen table, Dan's computer room and my garage I'm not sure where a Golden Age fits into this. If we're being upstaged by professional/digital enhancements so be it. 'Twas ever thus. Sean ps here's a short entry of my own in the "72 club". http://vimeo.com/3951942 On Oct 10, 2009, at 12:47 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:37 PM, David Tayler wrote: The Golden Age of live video performance is now officially over, as more and more videos are now edited for presentation. I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is not what you hear. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
On Oct 11, 2009, at 7:52 AM, David Tayler wrote: By editing I mean the matching of different takes to remove all the mistakes., not just changing camera angles. How can an edit be made so that it is undetectable with one camera? Unless you dissolve to a different angle I don't see how it would be done. There would be some slight jump in the visual. You would need two cameras or two takes from different angles, wouldn't you? Unless I am missing something, I think we'll be able to enjoy one take performances from people and know that they were not edited. I mean, you see someone playing in their living room all from one angle, no zooming, how do they edit two takes from that? Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [1]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp [2]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- References 1. mailto:edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 2. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Dan's computer room, Valery's kitchen table, Rob's amazing Visee from the original score, Sean's dark closeups, and the others, this is the golden age for me. dt >I didn't. No reverbs or sound enhancements or edits. It took a good >many (ok, a bad many ;^) takes to get a reasonable piece together. >Unfortunately the ones in the rep I like are often 3-6 minutes in >length. By the end of the session I couldn't believe my exhaustion. >And plenty of wincing later on the elimination rounds. > >Still, I see it as a fantastic tool if only for personal education >purposes as well as feedback from a peer group I can generally trust. >Between Valery's kitchen table, Dan's computer room and my garage I'm >not sure where a Golden Age fits into this. If we're being upstaged by >professional/digital enhancements so be it. 'Twas ever thus. > >Sean > > >ps here's a short entry of my own in the "72 club". >http://vimeo.com/3951942 > > >On Oct 10, 2009, at 12:47 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: > >>On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:37 PM, David Tayler >> wrote: >>>The Golden Age of live video performance is now officially over, as >>>more and more videos are now edited for presentation. >> >>I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is >>not what you hear. >> >>David >> >> >>-- >>*** >>David van Ooijen >>davidvanooi...@gmail.com >>www.davidvanooijen.nl >>*** >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I'm not saying it is a bad thing, I'm just saying it is the end of an era. We have a number of unedited videos from this period, and now it is not really possible to tell new videos are edited or not. Or people want them edited, and so on. I think this period served as a sort of reality check compared to years and years of heavily edited CDs. There is no stopping technology, and in the future we will see the same thing in video, flawless performances, and so on. I don't consider reverb or removing refrigerator sounds editing so music as processing. Same goes for color correction. By editing I mean the matching of different takes to remove all the mistakes., not just changing camera angles. Interestingly enough, even in the dawn of the CD age, there never was a similar period--the digital audio was sometimes even rerecorded to tape, cut with scissors, and then put back on CD. There are also early CDs before the development of digital crossfade tools where the takes are just spliced together with no fade--just a kind of bumping sound. I think what Rob is saying about the real sound is true, although obviously the amount of reverb is variable. But CDs aren't "true" in the performance sense. I do look forward to 3D! I'm already experimentingit is almost here And hopefully live concerts will continue. I think what CDs ceated was kind of a class issue--well funded artists with big recording companies could produce near perfect recordings. I'm seeing stuff on the net now that obviously cost tens of thousands of dollars, and makes the artists look very good indeed. And hey, maybe that is a good thing. I'll go work on learning my new "hair" plugin. And lose me a few pounds :) dt Hey, maybe it is a good thing. At 02:31 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote: >I don't know, David. When was it decided that the artistic >performance should be real? Sounds like a New Puritanism to me, and >these movements rarely last long. I agree that it has been an >interesting period, and one that I imagine will continue for some time >yet. > > > >Editing: I only ever added reverb, which I wouldn't say effected the >performance. My use of reverb lessened over time, and now I use none or >so little it is almost impossible to detect. The problem is that with >no sound shaping, just a dry recording, the resultant sound did not >sound like it did when I was playing. So which is the real sound? None >of the above. The use of reverb was an attempt to give an impression of >the sound I heard, but I never managed it. Of course, I spent no more >than 100 GB Pounds... > > > >I always viewed the video phenomenon as a meeting in the park or in the >bar, where a few of us share a few tunes and chat about our passion for >music. I never saw it as a professional promo. > > > >Rob > >-- > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I didn't. No reverbs or sound enhancements or edits. It took a good many (ok, a bad many ;^) takes to get a reasonable piece together. Unfortunately the ones in the rep I like are often 3-6 minutes in length. By the end of the session I couldn't believe my exhaustion. And plenty of wincing later on the elimination rounds. Still, I see it as a fantastic tool if only for personal education purposes as well as feedback from a peer group I can generally trust. Between Valery's kitchen table, Dan's computer room and my garage I'm not sure where a Golden Age fits into this. If we're being upstaged by professional/digital enhancements so be it. 'Twas ever thus. Sean ps here's a short entry of my own in the "72 club". http://vimeo.com/3951942 On Oct 10, 2009, at 12:47 PM, David van Ooijen wrote: On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:37 PM, David Tayler wrote: The Golden Age of live video performance is now officially over, as more and more videos are now edited for presentation. I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is not what you hear. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I don't know, David. When was it decided that the artistic performance should be real? Sounds like a New Puritanism to me, and these movements rarely last long. I agree that it has been an interesting period, and one that I imagine will continue for some time yet. Editing: I only ever added reverb, which I wouldn't say effected the performance. My use of reverb lessened over time, and now I use none or so little it is almost impossible to detect. The problem is that with no sound shaping, just a dry recording, the resultant sound did not sound like it did when I was playing. So which is the real sound? None of the above. The use of reverb was an attempt to give an impression of the sound I heard, but I never managed it. Of course, I spent no more than 100 GB Pounds... I always viewed the video phenomenon as a meeting in the park or in the bar, where a few of us share a few tunes and chat about our passion for music. I never saw it as a professional promo. Rob -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Alas, David, I'm afraid you have only yourself to blame! The likes of the very beautifully edited Monteverdi video you posted last week can only serve to inspire the rest of us foot-dragging Luddites to attempt to follow suit. If you want honest WYHIWYG, there's plenty to be had on our Youtube page! I'm sure a cursory listen to any of our previous videos would convince anyone that they were live and unretouched. Interesting that this, our first experiment with actual video editing (albeit with free software on an abysmally slow computer) should attract a couple hundred hits in its first 8 hours online - something we haven't seen before. It looks like people want better production values and sound quality. Is this a bad thing? Donna > Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 13:01:40 -0700 > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age > > Yes, that's probably true, but maybe it is as close as we will ever get. > dt > > At 12:47 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote: > >On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:37 PM, David Tayler wrote: > > > The Golden Age of live video performance is now officially over, as > > > more and more videos are now edited for presentation. > > > >I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is > >not what you hear. > > > >David > > > > > >-- > >*** > >David van Ooijen > >davidvanooi...@gmail.com > >www.davidvanooijen.nl > >*** > > > > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > __ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. [1]Get it now. -- References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 10:37 PM, wikla wrote: > >> I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is >> not what you hear. > > How can you do that? My tiny digital camera doesn't have a very good .. > steep to me; I cannot imagine how to replace the sound track. Perhaps > better so? In a way, yes. What I do, and others too, is record the audio track on a seperate device, and only synchronise it with the video after editing/adding reverb/whatever. Another option is to seperate the audio from the video, treat it and then reconnect it. All those bedrooms that sound like churches, never wondered about that? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
> I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is > not what you hear. How can you do that? My tiny digital camera doesn't have a very good microphone and of course no mic input. It could be nice to record the sound in some better way. Not to speak of editing the sound... ;-) One problem is that the learning curve in using the Quick Time Pro is too steep to me; I cannot imagine how to replace the sound track. Perhaps better so? Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Yes, that's probably true, but maybe it is as close as we will ever get. dt At 12:47 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote: >On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:37 PM, David Tayler wrote: > > The Golden Age of live video performance is now officially over, as > > more and more videos are now edited for presentation. > >I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is >not what you hear. > >David > > >-- >*** >David van Ooijen >davidvanooi...@gmail.com >www.davidvanooijen.nl >*** > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
I think we all have to thank Valéry, Daniel, Rob, Trond and all the others--I don't mean to leave anyone out here but these guys really made a lot of videos-- for all their work. Thanks guys. dt At 12:37 PM 10/10/2009, you wrote: The Golden Age of live video performance is now officially over, as more and more videos are now edited for presentation. This is not meant as a criticism, this process is an absolutely inevitable and natural result of people experimenting with the technology and refining it. Eventually, all video will be edited in a process similar to audio CDs, and new art forms--mistake free art forms, but art forms nonetheless--are emerging. Thanks to everyone who participated; I think this was truly an historic period in the modern revival of the lute. It is historical because for this brief moment in time it showed how people really played. I wish it had lasted longer, but it is amazing that it happened at all. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:37 PM, David Tayler wrote: > The Golden Age of live video performance is now officially over, as > more and more videos are now edited for presentation. I think from the start people tweaked the audio-bit. What you see is not what you hear. David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The End of the Golden Age
Don't schedule the funeral too soon, David. I, for one (and who knows how many other Neanderthals I speak for) will always be at least five years behind- and sometimes never catch up- with emerging technologies. You will ALWAYS be able to experience my lute playing as it really is, God help us. Dan >The Golden Age of live video performance is now officially over, as >more and more videos are now edited for presentation. >This is not meant as a criticism, this process is an absolutely >inevitable and natural result of people experimenting the technology >and refining it. >Eventually, all video will be edited in a process similar to audio >CDs, and new art forms--mistake free art forms, but art forms >nonetheless--are emerging. >Thanks to everyone who participated; I think this was truly an >historic period in the modern revival of the lute. >It is historical because for this brief moment in time it showed how >people really played. >I wish it had lasted longer, but it is amazing that it happened at all. > >dt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
