[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
Alexander, Thanks for these links. I would agree that the detailed mechanics of spider's silk is beyond most of us on this list (beginning with myself), but I am wondering whether the reported elasticity of some spider's web silk, might make it better for creating Meanes and bass strings, as opposed to stiffer? spider and silk worm cocoon silk (perhaps better for trebles, but just letting my imagination run riot, I admit). % As I understand it, the big problem would be the ammount of webs or cocoons needed. I read that in 1709, a Frenchman, Bon de Saint-Hilaire, made silk material with it, but it needed 1.3 million spider cocoons to produce one kilogram of silk. http://ednieuw.home.xs4all.nl/Spiders/InfoNed/webthread.html % It seems that the nano complexity of the micro spatial arrangements of the filaments is beginning to be understood: Inspired by spider silk, a naturally occurring strong and stretchy substance, MIT researchers have now devised a way to produce a material that begins to mimic this combination of desirable properties. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070119115103.htm (and also MIT researchers Sinan Keten and [1]Markus J. Buehler have developed and applied a framework for predicting the nanostructure of spider silk using atomistic principles. http://www.nanowerk.com/spotlight/spotid880.php) % That might seem to be the way to go (synthesizing it), rather than attempting to harvest spider silk, even by genetic mutation. However, I imagine we might be a long way off actually being able to use this material for music strings. That is probably the last interest of these MIT searchers. % But Spun fibres, natural and man-made, rely on the extrusion process to facilitate molecular orientation and bonding. http://www.nature.com/nmat/journal/v5/n11/full/nmat1762.html Thus could extrusion polymer flow theory (rheology) perhaps be used to clarify our understanding of natural silk spinning, and that in turn be translatable to models for extruding artificial silk, and even musical string production (as this article, above, which I haven't been able to read fully, seems to suggest). $ I am very very dimly grasping what this might involve, and suppose it is all rather a long way off? and imagine there is still a call for natural silk strings, and hope you will keep us informed about your research in this area. Regards Anthony (appologies for any confusion, but as you say this complex topic is rather beyond me) __ De : alexander voka...@verizon.net A : Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Cc : agno3ph...@yahoo.com; t...@heartistrymusic.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mercredi 7 mars 2012 15h54 Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics of the subject on this list, which are rather complex. It matters to say that the spider silk research is an immensely long and difficult endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The cultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly surprises the heck out of itself. It is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it moths or spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much the same elements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and fingernails, just in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue holding filaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. The sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' composition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported by the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on a micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes on. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial arrangement needs to be overcome and some new one created, which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness the spider just put into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, and the fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives the one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then respect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far as the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary straightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the string. This destroys the fancy spider's footwork. Curiously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the latices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too fancy to be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is never taken
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
...@heartistrymusic.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoyé le : Mercredi 7 mars 2012 15h54 Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics of the subject on this list, which are rather complex. It matters to say that the spider silk research is an immensely long and difficult endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The cultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly surprises the heck out of itself. It is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it moths or spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much the same elements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and fingernails, just in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue holding filaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. The sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' composition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported by the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on a micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes on. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial arrangement needs to be overcome and some new one created, which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness the spider just put into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, and the fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives the one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then respect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far as the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary straightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the string. This destroys the fancy spider's footwork. Curiously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the latices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too fancy to be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is never taken apart into tiny filaments, as silk is. This gives gut strings all the qualities we all love and enjoy. TO see the following links, remove spaces in http. h t t p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf h t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va h t t p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider-silk-textile-on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/ alexander r. On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 + Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? RA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
Hello Alexander As a gut string user, and ready to try silk if it was easilly available, I am not actually advocating for lutenists and other musicians to go over to synthetic strings (or natural spider strings). Indeed, I would hope improvements in research on historic natural strings might encourage more lutenists to stay with gut or silk. I must make that clear, and I suppose I should do so whenever discussing a synthetic string. % On the other hand, knowing that many lutenists will never use natural strings, and that a number only use natural strings for recording, I wonder whether it is not better that these synthetics strings, be as close as possible in behaviour to what we believe were the qualities of historic strings (but also seeing some dangers in such research). Gut strings can be twisted and treated with chemicals to become more flexible, and suitable for Meanes, but synthetic gut can't be (or at least I don't think it can), flexiblity must be part of the polymer structure (due to the ingredients or to the extruding). I was simply thinking that this could possibly be achieved by simulating the spider's extrusion technique (with the extrudor) rather than just varying the ingedients. This might actually result in a synthetic string closer to the flexible gut Meanes. However, for me this is still science fiction, I just wondered whether according to you it was a possibility, not at all advocating anything, and certainly not advocating genetic modification. Sorry not to have been more clear, I was not thinking about using natural spider silk, which has never to my knowledge been a historic ingredient for strings, just improving the structure of synthetic Meanes. % I realize improvements in synthetics may make it too easy for those who haven't already left natural strings. I have mixed feelings about that. Regards Anthony __ De : alexander voka...@verizon.net A : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Vendredi 9 mars 2012 16h31 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) Greetings, Anthony. Well, you, of all people, quite certainly can grasp the problems involved here. Du Pont regularly announces, with great pomp, their new creation of an absolutely perfect spider silk imitation, to only, without any pomp at all, quietly retreat until the next announcement. The last such announcement was just the last year. Now there is hardly any mentioning of it, except for the christian doomsday sites, as in this last instance Du Pont was using genetically pickled goats, to produce silk instead of, the more common, milk. For us, the string connoisseurs, having a goat with an exchangeable variable nipple extruder tips for the most common lute string sizes, and a chance, on feeding the animal some copper powder, to have our own perfectly loaded basses, - would be perfect, don't you say? While spider silk sounds extremely attractive, particularly to the military killer gadget junkies, in fact to a lutanist, please understand this, it is a disappointing distraction. There is a plethora of natural materials (to name but hemp and linen fibers, and, especially - discarded fingernail shavings) which, if arranged on the same, not very microscopic level, as spiders' signal line (the most closely befitting to be a musical string, not like a war monkeys salivatizing drag line - just google drag line kevlar), can produce a musical string with infinitely adjustable qualities, to match gut or what not. Only if the same amount of time, research and funding is applied. No need for genetically adjusted goats. For crying out loud, they made bulletproof materials out of both - hemp and linen, does this tell you what is possible? I have made, in a conventional manner, just by twisting and glueing, both linen and hemp gamba strings, which not only were more durable then gut or silk, but sounded on par. Now imagine if these fibers plus some keratin and collagen would be liquified and ran through the microfluidics extruder mimicking the spider line arrangement - there is your perfect string. I'm sure they will get to this as soon as they kill off enough people to finally notice all the lute players there. If we really want THEM to notice US... alexander r. On Fri, 09 Mar 2012 14:00:24 + (GMT) Anthony Hind [1]agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: Alexander, Thanks for these links. I would agree that the detailed mechanics of spider's silk is beyond most of us on this list (beginning with myself), but I am wondering whether the reported elasticity of some spider's web silk, might make it better for creating Meanes and bass
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
Yes, testing a string is not easy if you can't make a direct comparison with some other known value (see my report on the synthetic loaded bass). A change of room could make more difference than a change of string or instrument. Then of course with a recording, the mics and recorder all have their own tone. As you imply, probably, you can abstract from the recording quality if the string you hear is immediately compared with a known string on the same instrument, and recorded in exactly the same conditions. However, blind tests of Strads (etc) against modern violins seem to show that perception can also be strongly effected by a musicians expectation or prior knowledge. If you hope an instrument (or string) should be good, you will possibly hear it as such. Apparently, a blind test can cancel some bias, and give quite different results than expected. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/in-play-off-between-old-and-n ew-violins-stradivarius-lags.html Indeed, when I spoke to two lutensists about the new synthetic loaded strings: a lutenist who uses loaded gut and another who uses wirewounds, their expectations immediately became apparent; the loaded gut player expressed his fears that the synthetic loaded bass would probably sound plasticky, and the wirewounds player asked me whether the new string was as true as wirewounds, or a little false like loaded gut strings. This fear or expectancy would no doubt bias their judgement of the new string. Blind testing would possibly counteract this. I can't pretend to be less biassed, I think we are all biassed by the strings we are most used to, which become our norm from which all else is compared. Regards Anthony __ De : t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com A : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mercredi 7 mars 2012 8h08 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread I saw this two days ago on BBC, and after listening to the sound bite I thought, There's no way to compare. Give me a sample sound bite of a good violin with Thomastik strings, and the SAME violin with spider silk strings. Then I will have a basis for comparison. With their current sound sample I can't tell if it's the violin that's responsible for the overall sound and tone, or the string(s). Still, very cool. Tom D Yes- I got the news from one of my lute students yesterday. I heard a sample sound bite on the radio on the way home from work today, somewhat strange sounding- reedy, webby, a touch ethereal otherworldly in a nice way. How the hell did they harvest and process it? About 12 years ago some archery folks tried to gather spider silk for bow strings (apparently the strength to mass/weight ratio is unbelievable) but they got tangled up in a sticky, nasty web mess and abandoned the project. Dan On Mar 6, 2012, at 12:41 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Violin strings out of spider's thread: [1]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17232058 Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [3]http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 -- References 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17232058 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? RA Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:59:04 + To: t...@heartistrymusic.com CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) Yes, testing a string is not easy if you can't make a direct comparison with some other known value (see my report on the synthetic loaded bass). A change of room could make more difference than a change of string or instrument. Then of course with a recording, the mics and recorder all have their own tone. As you imply, probably, you can abstract from the recording quality if the string you hear is immediately compared with a known string on the same instrument, and recorded in exactly the same conditions. However, blind tests of Strads (etc) against modern violins seem to show that perception can also be strongly effected by a musicians expectation or prior knowledge. If you hope an instrument (or string) should be good, you will possibly hear it as such. Apparently, a blind test can cancel some bias, and give quite different results than expected. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/in-play-off-between-old-and-n ew-violins-stradivarius-lags.html Indeed, when I spoke to two lutensists about the new synthetic loaded strings: a lutenist who uses loaded gut and another who uses wirewounds, their expectations immediately became apparent; the loaded gut player expressed his fears that the synthetic loaded bass would probably sound plasticky, and the wirewounds player asked me whether the new string was as true as wirewounds, or a little false like loaded gut strings. This fear or expectancy would no doubt bias their judgement of the new string. Blind testing would possibly counteract this. I can't pretend to be less biassed, I think we are all biassed by the strings we are most used to, which become our norm from which all else is compared. Regards Anthony __ De : t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com A : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mercredi 7 mars 2012 8h08 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread I saw this two days ago on BBC, and after listening to the sound bite I thought, There's no way to compare. Give me a sample sound bite of a good violin with Thomastik strings, and the SAME violin with spider silk strings. Then I will have a basis for comparison. With their current sound sample I can't tell if it's the violin that's responsible for the overall sound and tone, or the string(s). Still, very cool. Tom D Yes- I got the news from one of my lute students yesterday. I heard a sample sound bite on the radio on the way home from work today, somewhat strange sounding- reedy, webby, a touch ethereal otherworldly in a nice way. How the hell did they harvest and process it? About 12 years ago some archery folks tried to gather spider silk for bow strings (apparently the strength to mass/weight ratio is unbelievable) but they got tangled up in a sticky, nasty web mess and abandoned the project. Dan On Mar 6, 2012, at 12:41 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Violin strings out of spider's thread: [1]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17232058 Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music [3]http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 -- References 1. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17232058 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html --
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics of the subject on this list, which are rather complex. It matters to say that the spider silk research is an immensely long and difficult endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The cultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly surprises the heck out of itself. It is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it moths or spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much the same elements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and fingernails, just in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue holding filaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. The sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' composition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported by the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on a micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes on. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial arrangement needs to be overcome and some new one created, which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness the spider just put into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, and the fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives the one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then respect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far as the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary straightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the string. This destroys the fancy spider's footwork. Curiously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the latices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too fancy to be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is never taken apart into tiny filaments, as silk is. This gives gut strings all the qualities we all love and enjoy. TO see the following links, remove spaces in http. h t t p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf h t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va h t t p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider-silk-textile-on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/ alexander r. On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 + Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? RA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
Thanks Anthony for that link about old violins - excellent!! Yes, testing a string is not easy if you can't make a direct comparison with some other known value (see my report on the synthetic loaded bass). A change of room could make more difference than a change of string or instrument. Then of course with a recording, the mics and recorder all have their own tone. As you imply, probably, you can abstract from the recording quality if the string you hear is immediately compared with a known string on the same instrument, and recorded in exactly the same conditions. However, blind tests of Strads (etc) against modern violins seem to show that perception can also be strongly effected by a musicians expectation or prior knowledge. If you hope an instrument (or string) should be good, you will possibly hear it as such. Apparently, a blind test can cancel some bias, and give quite different results than expected. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/science/in-play-off-between-old-and- new-violins-stradivarius- lags.html Indeed, when I spoke to two lutensists about the new synthetic loaded strings: a lutenist who uses loaded gut and another who uses wirewounds, their expectations immediately became apparent; the loaded gut player expressed his fears that the synthetic loaded bass would probably sound plasticky, and the wirewounds player asked me whether the new string was as true as wirewounds, or a little false like loaded gut strings. This fear or expectancy would no doubt bias their judgement of the new string. Blind testing would possibly counteract this. I can't pretend to be less biassed, I think we are all biassed by the strings we are most used to, which become our norm from which all else is compared. Regards Anthony De: t...@heartistrymusic.com t...@heartistrymusic.com À: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoyé le : Mercredi 7 mars 2012 8h08 Objet: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread I saw this two days ago on BBC, and after listening to the sound bite I thought, There's no way to compare. Give me a sample sound bite of a good violin with Thomastik strings, and the SAME violin with spider silk strings. Then I will have a basis for comparison.With their current sound sample I can't tell if it's the violin that's responsible for the overall sound and tone, or the string(s). Still, very cool. Tom D Yes- I got the news from one of my lute students yesterday. I heard a sample sound bite on the radio on the way home from work today, somewhat strange sounding- reedy, webby, a touch ethereal otherworldly in a nice way. How the hell did they harvest and process it? About 12 years ago some archery folks tried to gather spider silk for bow strings (apparently the strength to mass/weight ratio is unbelievable) but they got tangled up in a sticky, nasty web mess and abandoned the project. Dan On Mar 6, 2012, at 12:41 PM, Anthony Hind wrote: Violin strings out of spider's thread: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17232058 Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362 Tom Draughon Heartistry Music http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html 714 9th Avenue West Ashland, WI 54806 715-682-9362
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
The sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' composition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported by the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on a micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes on. This reminded me that MP of Aquila told me that my remarks on strong gut strings using either chemical treatment or beef gut were rather mistaken. He said that it was much more the number of gut strands and the way they were twisted that made up the strength (not of course in the way you describe above). Nevertheless, I suppose that chemical treatment, hardening the gut could make the string stronger (but perhaps MP did not use this method). Sorry, I am slightly away from the silk issue, here, but thought I shopuld mention it while I was reminded of it. Anthony __ De : alexander voka...@verizon.net A : Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Cc : agno3ph...@yahoo.com; t...@heartistrymusic.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoye le : Mercredi 7 mars 2012 15h54 Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics of the subject on this list, which are rather complex. It matters to say that the spider silk research is an immensely long and difficult endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The cultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly surprises the heck out of itself. It is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it moths or spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much the same elements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and fingernails, just in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue holding filaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. The sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' composition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported by the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on a micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes on. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial arrangement needs to be overcome and some new one created, which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness the spider just put into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, and the fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives the one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then respect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far as the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary straightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the string. This destroys the fancy spider's footwork. Curiously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the latices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too fancy to be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is never taken apart into tiny filaments, as silk is. This gives gut strings all the qualities we all love and enjoy. TO see the following links, remove spaces in http. h t t p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf h t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va h t t p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider-silk-textile- on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/ alexander r. On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 + Ron Andrico [1]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? RA -- References 1. mailto:praelu...@hotmail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
Anyone from Australia? Scoop up this bounty of spider webs and make some lute strings for us! http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/17273309 -Original Message- From: alexander voka...@verizon.net To: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com Cc: agno3phile agno3ph...@yahoo.com; tom t...@heartistrymusic.com; lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics of the subject on this ist, which are rather complex. It matters to say that the spider silk research s an immensely long and difficult endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The ultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly surprises he heck out of itself. t is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it moths r spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much the same lements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and fingernails, ust in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue holding ilaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. he sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' omposition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported y the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes n. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial arrangement needs to be vercome and some new one created, which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness he spider just put into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, nd the fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives he one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then espect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far s the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary traightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the string. his destroys the fancy spider's footwork. uriously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the atices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too fancy o be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is never aken apart into tiny filaments, as silk is. This gives gut strings all the ualities we all love and enjoy. O see the following links, remove spaces in http. t t p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va t t p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider-silk-textile-on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/ lexander r. n Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 + on Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? RA To get on or off this list see list information at ttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
What a tangled web we weave, Of oxen gut and silken sleeve. Cobdoggerel Smith On Mar 7, 2012, at 11:12 AM, Arto Wikla wrote: Actually they have a brilliant survival strategy. Normally spiders do not co-operate, but in the case of emergency... Well they have had 400 million years to adapt to the events in nature... Compare that to the time span to ours... Arto On 07/03/12 20:20, cyndi...@netscape.net wrote: Anyone from Australia? Scoop up this bounty of spider webs and make some lute strings for us! http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/17273309 -Original Message- From: alexandervoka...@verizon.net To: Ron Andricopraelu...@hotmail.com Cc: agno3phileagno3ph...@yahoo.com; tomt...@heartistrymusic.com; lutelute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics of the subject on this ist, which are rather complex. It matters to say that the spider silk research s an immensely long and difficult endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The ultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly surprises he heck out of itself. t is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it moths r spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much the same lements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and fingernails, ust in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue holding ilaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. he sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' omposition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported y the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes n. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial arrangement needs to be vercome and some new one created, which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness he spider just put into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, nd the fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives he one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then espect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far s the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary traightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the string. his destroys the fancy spider's footwork. uriously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the atices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too fancy o be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is never aken apart into tiny filaments, as silk is. This gives gut strings all the ualities we all love and enjoy. O see the following links, remove spaces in http. t t p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va t t p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider-silk- textile-on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/ lexander r. n Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 + on Andricopraelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? RA To get on or off this list see list information at ttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?)
Wasn't nylon originally discovered by research into spiderweb/silk materials, i.e. investigating the C-N peptide bond? My chemistry experience is now 40 years outdated, but i seem to remember that tidbit. Actually they have a brilliant survival strategy. Normally spiders do not co-operate, but in the case of emergency... Well they have had 400 million years to adapt to the events in nature... Compare that to the time span to ours... Arto On 07/03/12 20:20, cyndi...@netscape.net wrote: Anyone from Australia? Scoop up this bounty of spider webs and make some lute strings for us! http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/17273309 -Original Message- From: alexandervoka...@verizon.net To: Ron Andricopraelu...@hotmail.com Cc: agno3phileagno3ph...@yahoo.com; tomt...@heartistrymusic.com; lutelute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, Mar 7, 2012 9:54 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Violin strings out of spider's thread (objective blind test?) I seriously doubt there is an interest in the mechanics of the subject on this ist, which are rather complex. It matters to say that the spider silk research s an immensely long and difficult endeavor, without a clear end in sight. The ultured silk research, going on for some 600 years, still regularly surprises he heck out of itself. t is generally agreed that, with small variations, all the silks, be it moths r spiders, or some fishes and mammals (yes!) consist of pretty much the same lements - fibroin, based on the proteins similar to our hair and fingernails, ust in somewhat different proportions and mixtures, and a glue holding ilaments together, in case of moths and spiders - sericin. he sometimes enormous strength of spider silk results not from its' omposition, but rather from the spacial arrangement of the filaments, supported y the smart bends and nicks with a judicial dab of glue here and there, both on micro and macro level. and this is where the enormous amount of research goes n. TO make a useful musical strings, this spacial arrangement needs to be vercome and some new one created, which cancels all the wonderful inventiveness he spider just put into the process... The glue bits are melted in the process, nd the fancy curly hair go straight, as the perm in the shower. Sure it gives he one who makes such a string a painless pastime, and lots of it, and then espect for being persistent, and girls and free drinks that follow. But as far s the string goes, - nothing fancy here, exactly because of the necessary traightening of the tiny filaments to arrange them laterally into the string. his destroys the fancy spider's footwork. uriously enough, the gut strings, on the other hand, completely preserve the atices of arrangement among the filaments, as they are too strong and too fancy o be destroyed by the processing and stretching. You see, the gut is never aken apart into tiny filaments, as silk is. This gives gut strings all the ualities we all love and enjoy. O see the following links, remove spaces in http. t t p://web.mit.edu/course/3/3.064/www/slides/Ko_spider_silk.pdf t t p://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2012/01/spider-silk-va t t p://theheritagetrust.wordpress.com/2012/01/25/rare-spider- silk-textile-on-display-at-the-victoria-albert-museum/ lexander r. n Wed, 07 Mar 2012 13:23:12 + on Andricopraelu...@hotmail.com wrote: I feel inclined to point out that we have one of the foremost authorities on silk strings contributing to this list, Alex Rakov. While spider silk may vary slightly from typical silkworm stuff, I'm sure they behave in a similar fashion. Alex? RA To get on or off this list see list information at ttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
