Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Vance, you have the official and easiest explanation for the holocaust (you're missing a few important elements, I would recommend you some serious historians rather than Hollywood movies), and I insist: according to serious researchers, Judaism is not a race. But do not worry, to my that isn't really important. The main point in which we disagree, is in considering Mr. Thames to be out of place after having used the word nazi, in a context where every side was able to say whatever they wanted. A
RE: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
rofl -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 8:11 PM To: Vance Wood; lute list Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Sorry Roman again you are wrong, Bonsai is not an ethnic group within a group of trees, Bonsai is a method where by any tree from any back ground can be grown as a bonsai. Bonsai means tree in a pot, loosely translated. I have been growing bonsai for nearly fifty years and some of that as a semi-professional. I think putting trees in ghettos is inhuman. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Ariel: I never said Judaism was a race, you had better read the string again, Judaism is the religion practiced by the Jewish people in general and various others that choose to accept it. I had a history minor in University, though I am not a source authority I am not ignorant as you seem to wish to convey. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 1:22 AM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Dear Vance, you have the official and easiest explanation for the holocaust (you're missing a few important elements, I would recommend you some serious historians rather than Hollywood movies), and I insist: according to serious researchers, Judaism is not a race. But do not worry, to my that isn't really important. The main point in which we disagree, is in considering Mr. Thames to be out of place after having used the word nazi, in a context where every side was able to say whatever they wanted. A
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance said: I never said Judaism was a race, you had better read the string again, Judaism is the religion practiced by the Jewish people in general and various others that choose to accept it. This is not what you've said, but doesn't matter. I was a fool by getting into this particular thing again. I didn't say you're an ignorant (and I don't necessary think so), though your comments about the holocaust and the historical motivations were a bit simplistic. I still don't get why do you feel offended or uncomfortable when M. Thames or RT use certain expressions, but you didn't say a single word when, for example, MO started calling me things (idiot, etc.) before I even had the chance to breath, and before he knew who I was and what I do (he doesn't right now). If your intention is bringing peace back, I'm afraid you're not doing such a great job being so partial. Don't you think? A
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
No, he tossed it out openly, if it is true why should he be ashamed of the circumstances. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Christian is not a race or family of people, Jewish is, though it is possible to convert to Judaism doing so does not make you genetically a person of Jewish back ground, that is what the holocaust was all about if you forget your history. MT made the statement, and tossed it out on the tired old string of personal assaults as a defense for making the Nazi comment. I simply asked how this was possible. Vance Wood. Could you ask him PRIVATELY? RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Ariel: I AM NOT THE ONE WHO KEEPS ASKING ME THE QUESTIONS. I don't care if MT is a Druid. However he used the term Jewish after the discussion where he used the term Nazi. He tossed out the Jewish family ties as a defense to his calling MO a Nazi, in much the same way a racist, in defense of his or her racism, will say that some of their best friends are this that or another. JEWISH IS A RACE, Judaism is a religion. I am dumb struck that you do not understand that. During the Holocaust The Jews were persecuted because of their race not their religion. Hitler was interested in eliminating the Jewish race not the religion. It is a know fact that many of them converted to Christianity but that did not keep them out of the concentration camps, if their genealogies showed that they had Jewish blood in their backgrounds off to the camps they went. It amazes me that there are a few who have responded to this dreary posting who don't understand that. I have always been of the opinion that this group was considered highly educated, I guess I am wrong on that point. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 12:31 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Vance, if you know very well that doesn't really matter what's the religion, race or political filiation of the family of Mr Thames (or any other member), why do you carry on with this? Didn't you want this thing to stop? Weren't you the one who recommended not to express ideas that doesn't have to do with our main subject? You can be Jewish just by feeling it that way, as a religion is based in faith and nothing but that (Judaism is not a race) , but I don't think that's something interesting to talk about it here. Ariel.
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
I AM NOT THE ONE WHO KEEPS ASKING ME THE QUESTIONS. I don't care if MT is a Druid. However he used the term Jewish after the discussion where he used the term Nazi. He tossed out the Jewish family ties as a defense to his calling MO a Nazi, in much the same way a racist, in defense of his or her racism, will say that some of their best friends are this that or another. JEWISH IS A RACE, Judaism is a religion. I am dumb struck that you do not understand that. During the Holocaust The Jews were persecuted because of their race not their religion. Hitler was interested in eliminating the Jewish race not the religion. It is a know fact that many of them converted to Christianity but that did not keep them out of the concentration camps, if their genealogies showed that they had Jewish blood in their backgrounds off to the camps they went. It amazes me that there are a few who have responded to this dreary posting who don't understand that. I have always been of the opinion that this group was considered highly educated, I guess I am wrong on that point. VW, you are not wrong, but not right either, mistaking an ethnic group for a whole race. To make it clearer for you: Bonsai is an ethnic group within a race of trees. Like pygmies among normal sized africans. Or to actually make it RELEVANT: Mandora is an ethnos within the testudinal race. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JEWISH IS A RACE, Judaism is a religion. I am dumb struck that you do not understand that. During the Holocaust The Jews were persecuted because of their race not their religion. That's pretty much how Goebbels put it. More objective observers attribute it to the peculiar Nazi ideology that characterized Jewish (among others) as a race in defiance of social and biological science. You'd be on firmer ground if you characterized Jewish as an ethnicity, but frankly, you'd still be in quicksand from the point of view of the lute list. Let this thread drop. H
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Howard: I've stood in quicksand before when I know I am right. Your analysis does not make sense. However I am not the one that keeps throwing out the misinformation. Why does the word race frighten you? Racism is an ugly word. I have yet to here that kind of thing applied to Ethnicity. Would that be an ethnicist? Or would the practice be ethnicism. I don't think either of those two words are actually recognized words. I guess it is easy to be a racist when you avoid the word race. I'm not accusing you of that ugliness I am just pointing out what you and a couple of others seem to want to avoid. I did not start this but I am not going to cowed into backing down on it either. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 5:29 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JEWISH IS A RACE, Judaism is a religion. I am dumb struck that you do not understand that. During the Holocaust The Jews were persecuted because of their race not their religion. That's pretty much how Goebbels put it. More objective observers attribute it to the peculiar Nazi ideology that characterized Jewish (among others) as a race in defiance of social and biological science. You'd be on firmer ground if you characterized Jewish as an ethnicity, but frankly, you'd still be in quicksand from the point of view of the lute list. Let this thread drop. H
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Sorry Roman again you are wrong, Bonsai is not an ethnic group within a group of trees, Bonsai is a method where by any tree from any back ground can be grown as a bonsai. Bonsai means tree in a pot, loosely translated. I have been growing bonsai for nearly fifty years and some of that as a semi-professional. I think putting trees in ghettos is inhuman. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
As far as the Third Riche was concerned religion or philosophy had nothing to do with how The Jews were dealt with. So Nouveau Riche must be the Forth Reich... RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance wrote, No, he tossed it out openly, if it is true why should he be ashamed of the circumstances. Michael wrote, Vance, I have been watching you flop in the sand like a fish caught on the hook, line, and sinker I threw you. Your mind goes straight for the obvious doesn't it? I will now give an answer to the puzzle of my sisters ethnicity. But I must say you got a big fat ZERO for figuring it out. We have the same mother. My Sisters Father was a Russian Jew, my Sister married into a very wealthy Jewish family and presently live's on Martha' Vineyard, with her Jewish Husband. As a side note, My father is of German decent, and my wife is Italian, and her English is getting better all the time. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 4:01 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) No, he tossed it out openly, if it is true why should he be ashamed of the circumstances. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:54 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Christian is not a race or family of people, Jewish is, though it is possible to convert to Judaism doing so does not make you genetically a person of Jewish back ground, that is what the holocaust was all about if you forget your history. MT made the statement, and tossed it out on the tired old string of personal assaults as a defense for making the Nazi comment. I simply asked how this was possible. Vance Wood. Could you ask him PRIVATELY? RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
It doesn't make any difference, I wouldn't worry about that. How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to choosing the Jewish faith of her husband?
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
To any still interested and Dr.Oakroot: Christian is not a race or family of people, Jewish is, though it is possible to convert to Judaism doing so does not make you genetically a person of Jewish back ground, that is what the holocaust was all about if you forget your history. MT made the statement, and tossed it out on the tired old string of personal assaults as a defense for making the Nazi comment. I simply asked how this was possible. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Doctor Oakroot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) My brother is Christian, but I'm not... what's so strange about that? :) Vance Wood wrote: How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to choosing the Jewish faith of her husband? Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:27 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) My sister and brother in law are both Jewish. My remark was not directed towards any specific race, and I think in the context that it was delivered this is obvious. But those who choose to make an issue about this, have every freedom. However I've noticed that some of these individuals are the very one's crying for a stop to this insanity, but when shown there own nose in a mirror can't see it. In this case it was directed at an individual who sought to impose his way of thinking upon me, not an equal exchange of ideas and philosophy, only through strong handed tactics, insulting my ignorance, standing in the guitar and lute world, criminalizing me, and so on. I responded with absurdities. If he were a universal monarch, I have no doubt, he would have chosen to wipe me off the face of the earth for my belief's, because they were different then his. In the future, I will do my best to deliver any and all, ill intent, insults, bad wishes, and hypocrisy, In the mannerly way in which one can attain the most devastating effect. A skill I have now acquired by observing the best of the best on this list. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Dear Vance, regardless of whether I find the whole thing (argument) to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the context the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this case- and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' sector, and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I don't really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit between the acceptable or not. ATB, A -- Rough-edged songs from a dark place in the soul: http://DoctorOakroot.com
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Christian is not a race or family of people, Jewish is, though it is possible to convert to Judaism doing so does not make you genetically a person of Jewish back ground, that is what the holocaust was all about if you forget your history. MT made the statement, and tossed it out on the tired old string of personal assaults as a defense for making the Nazi comment. I simply asked how this was possible. Vance Wood. Could you ask him PRIVATELY? RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, You are going much too far. I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. Bernd, take it from an MO expert, what he has is not patience. He actually seems to derive pleasure from ill-will he causes. Quite often I have the impression that those, the ill-willing, mails by MO don't reach my little computer due to some strange manipulations of the mail system. I can only see a little bit of sarcasm, and I don't find his opinion so provoking that bad insults should be allowed. best regards from B.H. Accusations of theft and hypocrisy are usually sufficient. Whenl an occasion permits he also pulls out compositional deficiencies or plagiarism. The last 2 are mutually exclusive, and it is funny to see him oscillate between these. The examples a plentiful, look in the archives. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Roman: I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to mean as you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are totally off base. I can think of no four letter word, invective or insult that would prick the heart of an individual whose family was decimated by the horrors of WWII and the holocaust than to be referred to as a Nazi. OK, MO is not a nazi, he just looks/sounds like one. Please note that there are others who lost relatives in the same circumstances (Ariel et al., as well as yours truly), but we never permit ourselves the bad taste of invoking that for the purpose of rendering ourselves immune to criticism like MO. MO's loss certainly didn't make him a better person, he was and remains a rhinocerotide with a cigar (please DO NOTE that I upgraded him on the biological ladder). RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Howard, * BTW, what is a roach assumption? Is this a characterization of methodology, or of substances that affected your sobriety in making it? Or some rule of thumb about the visibility of actual visible cockroaches to hidden ones? * Roman gives, in another message, an estimate of 4 to 1 for hidden to visible roaches. As a former resident of NYC I can say he is optimistic. The ratio is more like 1000 to 1. Best, Jon
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance wrote, conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to stoop to that level MT wrote, Vance your hypocrisy knows no bounds! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Dear Roman: I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to mean as you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are totally off base. I can think of no four letter word, invective or insult that would prick the heart of an individual whose family was decimated by the horrors of WWII and the holocaust than to be referred to as a Nazi. To prove a point go out into the street and use the work Nigger to a black man and see what happens. Words do mean something and this event has crossed the line. It seems to me that those who come from a Liberal/Socialist point of view seem to think of every body who is conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to stoop to that level. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: LUTE-LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, You are going much too far. Please read your statements carefully before you send them to the world. I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. B.H. Also: Bernd, In the States word nazi is now divorced from its original meaning and is used rather indiscriminately. In NYC there is a soup restaurant, whose owner likes to decide which soup each particular customer has to have, and if you don't like that then you may eat elsewhere. He is known as the soup nazi. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Roman, hello all, They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, You are going much too far. I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. Bernd, take it from an MO expert, what he has is not patience. He actually seems to derive pleasure from ill-will he causes. Quite often I have the impression that those, the ill-willing, mails by MO don't reach my little computer due to some strange manipulations of the mail system. I can only see a little bit of sarcasm, and I don't find his opinion so provoking that bad insults should be allowed. best regards from B.H.
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Dear Vance, regardless of whether I find the whole thing (argument) to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the context the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this case- and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' sector, and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I don't really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit between the acceptable or not. ATB, A
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to choosing the Jewish faith of her husband? Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:27 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) My sister and brother in law are both Jewish. My remark was not directed towards any specific race, and I think in the context that it was delivered this is obvious. But those who choose to make an issue about this, have every freedom. However I've noticed that some of these individuals are the very one's crying for a stop to this insanity, but when shown there own nose in a mirror can't see it. In this case it was directed at an individual who sought to impose his way of thinking upon me, not an equal exchange of ideas and philosophy, only through strong handed tactics, insulting my ignorance, standing in the guitar and lute world, criminalizing me, and so on. I responded with absurdities. If he were a universal monarch, I have no doubt, he would have chosen to wipe me off the face of the earth for my belief's, because they were different then his. In the future, I will do my best to deliver any and all, ill intent, insults, bad wishes, and hypocrisy, In the mannerly way in which one can attain the most devastating effect. A skill I have now acquired by observing the best of the best on this list. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Dear Vance, regardless of whether I find the whole thing (argument) to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the context the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this case- and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' sector, and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I don't really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit between the acceptable or not. ATB, A
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Michael: Your ability to see only what you want to see, and understand what you want to understand is a true source of amazement. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Vance wrote, conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to stoop to that level MT wrote, Vance your hypocrisy knows no bounds! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Dear Roman: I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to mean as you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are totally off base. I can think of no four letter word, invective or insult that would prick the heart of an individual whose family was decimated by the horrors of WWII and the holocaust than to be referred to as a Nazi. To prove a point go out into the street and use the work Nigger to a black man and see what happens. Words do mean something and this event has crossed the line. It seems to me that those who come from a Liberal/Socialist point of view seem to think of every body who is conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to stoop to that level. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: LUTE-LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, You are going much too far. Please read your statements carefully before you send them to the world. I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. B.H. Also: Bernd, In the States word nazi is now divorced from its original meaning and is used rather indiscriminately. In NYC there is a soup restaurant, whose owner likes to decide which soup each particular customer has to have, and if you don't like that then you may eat elsewhere. He is known as the soup nazi. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Michael: Your ability to see only what you want to see, and understand what you want to understand is a true source of amazement. Vance Wood What is the purpose of continuing this Vance, weren't you the voice of reason we all looked to. Where is Dudly Do right when we need him? Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:41 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Michael: Your ability to see only what you want to see, and understand what you want to understand is a true source of amazement. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:02 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Vance wrote, conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to stoop to that level MT wrote, Vance your hypocrisy knows no bounds! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 5:17 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Dear Roman: I disagree, and, I agree. In some circles this term has come to mean as you have described, in other circles, especially where there is a Jewish back ground haunted by memories of the holocaust, you and Michael are totally off base. I can think of no four letter word, invective or insult that would prick the heart of an individual whose family was decimated by the horrors of WWII and the holocaust than to be referred to as a Nazi. To prove a point go out into the street and use the work Nigger to a black man and see what happens. Words do mean something and this event has crossed the line. It seems to me that those who come from a Liberal/Socialist point of view seem to think of every body who is conservative as a Nazi. Personally I am conservative and I consider the tag Nazi as an insult. If you wish I could return the favor but I choose not to stoop to that level. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Bernd Haegemann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: LUTE-LIST [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 7:37 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, You are going much too far. Please read your statements carefully before you send them to the world. I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. B.H. Also: Bernd, In the States word nazi is now divorced from its original meaning and is used rather indiscriminately. In NYC there is a soup restaurant, whose owner likes to decide which soup each particular customer has to have, and if you don't like that then you may eat elsewhere. He is known as the soup nazi. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Vance wrote, How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to choosing the Jewish faith of her husband? MT wrote, I really think it's none of your business. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:55 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) How can your sister be Jewish and you are not? Or are you referring to choosing the Jewish faith of her husband? Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED]; arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:27 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) My sister and brother in law are both Jewish. My remark was not directed towards any specific race, and I think in the context that it was delivered this is obvious. But those who choose to make an issue about this, have every freedom. However I've noticed that some of these individuals are the very one's crying for a stop to this insanity, but when shown there own nose in a mirror can't see it. In this case it was directed at an individual who sought to impose his way of thinking upon me, not an equal exchange of ideas and philosophy, only through strong handed tactics, insulting my ignorance, standing in the guitar and lute world, criminalizing me, and so on. I responded with absurdities. If he were a universal monarch, I have no doubt, he would have chosen to wipe me off the face of the earth for my belief's, because they were different then his. In the future, I will do my best to deliver any and all, ill intent, insults, bad wishes, and hypocrisy, In the mannerly way in which one can attain the most devastating effect. A skill I have now acquired by observing the best of the best on this list. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: arielabramovich [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 4:20 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Dear Vance, regardless of whether I find the whole thing (argument) to be fine or not, I'd love to mention that part of my family was also exterminated by the Nazis in the WWII, and I clearly see that in the context the word (nazi) had little to do with it's original meaning. I belong to the (according to your thinking structure, which in this case- and for my taste- tends to be a bit simplistic) Liberal/Socialist' sector, and I believe that a conservative is actually a conservative, and not necessary a Nazi (can sometimes be both, plus many other things). Generalizations aren't always a very good idea. I don't think anyone should be consider a victim in this case, and I don't really believe that the simple use of the word nazi determines the limit between the acceptable or not. ATB, A
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
I am going to take a risk. There have been comments among us about specific religious associatians. And specifically a comment that M.O. insulted Sephardim. Well then, is M.O. an Ashkenazi conducting an internal confrontation? He says he has Sephardic family, but who knows what that is. Bear with me. If you listen to the Christian Gospel singers you'll find that King David invented the harp, and I'm sure he did. But then there might be other claims. The lute is definitely a Christian instrument, as it was played in medieval times in Europe by the Trouveres and Troubadours. Never mind that it came from the oud of the Muslim middle east. And I'm not so damned sure what the music of the ancient Jews was, the current Israelis use a sort of a combination of middle eastern scale (but really a modality of the western, as currently executed) and the modern western. Is that music from the days of Moses or David, or is it from the interpretations by the central European enclaves of later years? So here is my statement. I don't give a damn about any internecine warfare between the Sephardim and the Ashkenazi, nor do I care about the warfare within the Anglican Church at the moment (it's on the TV). Or whether I can count the number of angels on the head of a pin. Music is music, and that is our topic. Some of the finest music written has been for one god or another, the particular choice doesn't change the music. I could write a piece honoring the seventh avenue subway, and if it were a good piece with lasting musical value it might last an eternity - and long after both the subway and the avenue were gone. Best, Jon - Original Message - From: Miles Dempster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 5:28 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) Matanya, Please address this issue privately with RT. Thanks On Sunday, December 7, 2003, at 03:57 PM, Matanya Ophee wrote: At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then MO proceeded to insult Sephardim, and I took an exception to that Interesting perception. Me insulting Sephardim. My brother in law is a Sephardi, my son in law is a Sephardi and my four grand children are Sephardi. So what it was I said about Sephardim that was insulting? do refresh my memory. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Matanya, You are quite right that the issues of publishers, socialists and rip offs are public matters. But one does have to define the nature of a public forum. A list server (listserv in old computer speak) is a community of people with a common interest, and when particular interests within that community take over the conversation by massive messages to all it is a disservice to the rest of the community. In my nearly twenty years of dealing with listservs (and often as administrator) I've seen a number of them die when a few take over the volume of mail and the primary function of the list becomes secondary. You, as a publisher with an interest, have every right to express your opinion. But then I also use this list to find out how to play the lute. Is this the Lute Society, or the Publisher's Society? I have an MBA from many years ago, shall I start posting messages as to the value of investing in the stocks of luthiers? (If there is a publically held luthier g). Perhaps the research aspect of the LSA, as to the music, should be split from the direct questions on the use of the lute, but that would be asking too much of Wayne, and would limit the responses. So perhaps direct replies rather than to the list might be a matter of self disclipine. Best, Jon
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Roman Turovsky at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The funny thing is that old postings in those flame wars are nowhere as interesting as they seemed at the time.. I'm afraid they weren't as interesting as all that at the time, Roman. What's interesting (or, for that matter, persuasive) to the writer in the heat of combat is a far cry from what's interesting to the reader. BTW, what is a roach assumption? Is this a characterization of methodology, or of substances that affected your sobriety in making it? Or some rule of thumb about the visibility of actual visible cockroaches to hidden ones? And as long as I've sort of touched on it, I know this is OT, but in light of recent remarks by Roman, Stewart and Matanya, the following excerpt from a set of program notes I recently finished somehow seems relevant: While in the hospital recuperating from his heart attack, Shostakovich read through a collection of poems by Alexander Blok The dark tone of Blok¹s poems must have matched Shostakovich¹s mood. When the cellist Mstislav Rostropovich, a longtime friend, asked him to compose songs for cello and soprano for Rostropovich and his wife, Galina Vishnevskaya, Shostakovich turned to Blok¹s poems. A few days after he finished the cycle on February 3, 1967, he told a visiting friend that though he had conceived it well before Rostropovich¹s request, he was unable to compose it until he found a bottle of brandy that his wifewho was otherwise vigilant and ruthless in keeping her ailing husband away from potentially harmful substanceshad not hidden thoroughly enough. After a reviving shot of the brandy, Shostakovich said, he finished the cycle in three days. Cheers, Howard
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
The funny thing is that old postings in those flame wars are nowhere as interesting as they seemed at the time.. I'm afraid they weren't as interesting as all that at the time, Roman. What's interesting (or, for that matter, persuasive) to the writer in the heat of combat is a far cry from what's interesting to the reader. Note that I said SEEMED. But a few actually WERE. BTW, what is a roach assumption? Is this a characterization of methodology, or of substances that affected your sobriety in making it? Or some rule of thumb about the visibility of actual visible cockroaches to hidden ones? The latter: 1 to 4 I believe, but gave a conservative eslimate. And as long as I've sort of touched on it, I know this is OT, but in light of recent remarks by Roman, Stewart and Matanya, the following excerpt from a set of program notes I recently finished somehow seems relevant: While in the hospital recuperating from his heart attack, Shostakovich read through a collection of poems by Alexander Blok The dark tone of Bloks poems must have matched Shostakovichs mood. When the cellist Mstislav Rostropovich, a longtime friend, asked him to compose songs for cello and soprano for Rostropovich and his wife, Galina Vishnevskaya, Shostakovich turned to Bloks poems. A few days after he finished the cycle on February 3, 1967, he told a visiting friend that though he had conceived it well before Rostropovichs request, he was unable to compose it until he found a bottle of brandy that his wife?who was otherwise vigilant and ruthless in keeping her ailing husband away from potentially harmful substances?had not hidden thoroughly enough. After a reviving shot of the brandy, Shostakovich said, he finished the cycle in three days. Fine, but there is no implication that he drank to visible excess. Ditto RT.. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, You are going much too far. Please read your statements carefully before you send them to the world. I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. B.H. Bernd, take it from an MO expert, what he has is not patience. He actually seems to derive pleasure from ill-will he causes. I have seen it both here and CG newsgroup. My impression is that his purpose is to make sufficient noise to prevent us from accomplishing anything, in other words he is simply a saboteur. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, You are going much too far. Please read your statements carefully before you send them to the world. I admire Mr. Ophee for his patience. B.H. Also: Bernd, In the States word nazi is now divorced from its original meaning and is used rather indiscriminately. In NYC there is a soup restaurant, whose owner likes to decide which soup each particular customer has to have, and if you don't like that then you may eat elsewhere. He is known as the soup nazi. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
I am going to take a risk. There have been comments among us about specific religious associatians. And specifically a comment that M.O. insulted Sephardim. Well then, is M.O. an Ashkenazi conducting an internal confrontation? He says he has Sephardic family, but who knows what that is. Bear with me. No, the reason for conflagration is simply MO name brand recognition at all costs. RT
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Music is music, and that is our topic. Some of the finest music written has been for one god or another, the particular choice doesn't change the music. I could write a piece honoring the seventh avenue subway, and if it were a good piece with lasting musical value it might last an eternity - and long after both the subway and the avenue were gone. NO. Actually any great music semantically depends on religion, because it needs a system of symbols, an language of expression, even if a particular piece of music may seem to have no obvious religious connotations. There is no equality between such systems in circulation, and there is a reason why we have Bach and they don't. Golgotha has a distinctly different musical value in comparison with Times Square. So any music not rooted in Christian semantics (like MacOSX rooted in Unix) is doomed to being not quite that memorable (see Pagan, Islamic, Judaic etc., and don't hold you breath for a Ramadan oratorio). Again, it doesn't have to have overtly religious. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The truce more or less lasted until Doug Smith's campaign against Sautscheck. Thank you for confirming the reason and the rationale for your anti-MO abusive demagoguery. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then MO proceeded to insult Sephardim, and I took an exception to that Interesting perception. Me insulting Sephardim. My brother in law is a Sephardi, my son in law is a Sephardi and my four grand children are Sephardi. So what it was I said about Sephardim that was insulting? do refresh my memory. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Matanya, Please address this issue privately with RT. Thanks On Sunday, December 7, 2003, at 03:57 PM, Matanya Ophee wrote: At 03:33 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then MO proceeded to insult Sephardim, and I took an exception to that Interesting perception. Me insulting Sephardim. My brother in law is a Sephardi, my son in law is a Sephardi and my four grand children are Sephardi. So what it was I said about Sephardim that was insulting? do refresh my memory. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
At 05:28 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, you wrote: Matanya, Please address this issue privately with RT. I am sorry, but the issue of publishers being ripped off by socialist do gooders is not a personal matter. It is a public issue, and as a publisher yourself it should concern you too. If you do not feel concerned, that's your choice to make. Besides, I resent the insinuation that the I have to do anything with this flame war. It was started by Michael Thames addressing me as Montana and by Romany Turovsky referring to me as a mixture of yeast and fecal matter. If the flame bothers you so much, please address the initial culprits. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world)
Matanya wrote, It was started by Michael Thames addressing me as Montana and by Romany Turovsky referring to me as a mixture of yeast and fecal matter. If the flame bothers you so much, please address the initial culprits From MT, It started between Albert and myself , after asking the now famous question about copyrights on facsimile, after pondering the input I was receiving, I decided the best thing was to ask Albert, I sent him an email, very politely asking his permission to post facsimile on my site in exchange for advertising. Thinking he received my letter, and getting his rather over the top response, I wrote him back a nasty letter. After realizing the mix up between the letters, I promptly apologized to Albert and the entire lute list, for my over the top response. End of story!!! After that is when you first appeared, butting in and insulting my intelligence. The rest as they say is history. By the way, you think we have it bad on the lute list. We should be thankful were not guitarists. They have to listen to this neo nazi bastard all the time, as many of them tell me he completely dominates their list, with nothing but negative crap! Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 6:19 PM Subject: Re: State of Lutenet (was Size of the lute world) At 05:28 PM 12/7/2003 -0500, you wrote: Matanya, Please address this issue privately with RT. I am sorry, but the issue of publishers being ripped off by socialist do gooders is not a personal matter. It is a public issue, and as a publisher yourself it should concern you too. If you do not feel concerned, that's your choice to make. Besides, I resent the insinuation that the I have to do anything with this flame war. It was started by Michael Thames addressing me as Montana and by Romany Turovsky referring to me as a mixture of yeast and fecal matter. If the flame bothers you so much, please address the initial culprits. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com
