Re: please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Jean-Pierre Chrétien]

Le 25/10/2016 à 22:50, Uwe Stöhr a écrit :


as I pointed out and as we also agreed is to do these kind of changes only for
major LyX releases. To if you would do this for LyX 2.3 this would be great.


Sure, I will try when 2.3 will be out or next to be so.

--
Jean-Pierre

Re: please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 25.10.2016 um 22:39 schrieb Guillaume Munch:


I can revert the menu name to "Source Pane" in 2.2.x for the
documentation reasons you gave.


Please do so.


Done.


Many thanks.

regards Uwe

Re: please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 25.10.2016 um 09:19 schrieb Jean-Pierre Chrétien:


I can do it when the time comes if you like, if I have the ftp access to
the site.


Many thanks Jean-Pierre.

as I pointed out and as we also agreed is to do these kind of changes 
only for major LyX releases. To if you would do this for LyX 2.3 this 
would be great.


regards Uwe

Re: please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Guillaume Munch]

Le 24/10/2016 à 23:55, Uwe Stöhr a écrit :

Am 24.10.2016 um 00:38 schrieb Guillaume Munch:


You are not being rude at all, in fact you are quite polite.


OK. I felt I was rude. I thought about it and began to update the docs
when I realized what an impact these renaming have. Then I searched the
Wiki and googled around. The source code window is referenced all over
the place a lot. So changing this produces a lot of work for me, breaks
the idea that the docs for LyX 2.2.x are valid for all 2.2 releases
(except bugfixes of course) and finally I didn't see a benefit for the
renaming at all.


Sorry for all the work. It helps to see it as lifting a lot of small
confusions all over the place. I can also help with the change (maybe it
won't be needed if Jean-Pierre's magical solution works).



So if you think the changed name is an improvement and the others agree,
I am fine with this change in master but not for branch.


I can revert the menu name to "Source Pane" in 2.2.x for the
documentation reasons you gave.


Please do so.


Done.




I can also revert it in master if
the majority wants it. But I hope that my explanation reassured
you.


If your experience is that the new name helps users, it is OK, I mean
many things I do here are also driven from user feedback and are perhaps
sometimes hard to understand by developers. For me user feedback is very
important. So +1 from me.


Of course what I can only say is that the old name did not help.


I don't know if there was already a vote. if
not, I suggest to do one because this menu is used quite often and
better to decide now than later in the RC cycle.


Yes, if there are dissenting opinions, now is the time. And then if
rationally it cannot be decided, then it might be needed to resort to a
vote.

Guillaume

Re: please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Jean-Pierre Chrétien]

Le 24/10/2016 à 22:55, Uwe Stöhr a écrit :

Am 24.10.2016 um 00:38 schrieb Guillaume Munch:


You are not being rude at all, in fact you are quite polite.


OK. I felt I was rude. I thought about it and began to update the docs when I
realized what an impact these renaming have. Then I searched the Wiki and
googled around. The source code window is referenced all over the place a lot.


As the wiki uses flat files (as opposite to sql architecture), you might
 * retrieve the wiki pages through ftp
 * make a global substitution
 * upload the updated stuff (only the modified pages)
 I see one drawback: the changes will not appear in the history, but these are 
"Minor changes".


I can do it when the time comes if you like, if I have the ftp access to the 
site.

--
Jean-Pierre

Re: please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 24.10.2016 um 00:38 schrieb Guillaume Munch:


You are not being rude at all, in fact you are quite polite.


OK. I felt I was rude. I thought about it and began to update the docs 
when I realized what an impact these renaming have. Then I searched the 
Wiki and googled around. The source code window is referenced all over 
the place a lot. So changing this produces a lot of work for me, breaks 
the idea that the docs for LyX 2.2.x are valid for all 2.2 releases 
(except bugfixes of course) and finally I didn't see a benefit for the 
renaming at all.


So if you think the changed name is an improvement and the others agree, 
I am fine with this change in master but not for branch.



First, surely you do not mean to revert the entire commit. The main
purpose of the patch is to change the title of GuiViewSource to "LaTeX
(pdflatex) preview", "LyXHTML preview", etc. The default title "Code
Preview" does not appear in practice. I think you are mainly referring
to the change in the menu name.


Exactly. The window title is not the problem, but the menu name should stay.


I think that the best solution instead is to have
"Code Preview Pane|S" as a reminiscence of the former name


I opt to change the accelerator of the name is changed. Otherwise 2 
years later it will be confusing.



I can revert the menu name to "Source Pane" in 2.2.x for the
documentation reasons you gave.


Please do so.


I can also revert it in master if
the majority wants it. But I hope that my explanation reassured
you.


If your experience is that the new name helps users, it is OK, I mean 
many things I do here are also driven from user feedback and are perhaps 
sometimes hard to understand by developers. For me user feedback is very 
important. So +1 from me. I don't know if there was already a vote. if 
not, I suggest to do one because this menu is used quite often and 
better to decide now than later in the RC cycle.


regards Uwe

Re: please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Richard Heck]

On 10/23/2016 06:38 PM, Guillaume Munch wrote:
>
> I can revert the menu name to "Source Pane" in 2.2.x for the
> documentation reasons you gave. I can also revert it in master if
> the majority wants it. But I hope that my explanation reassured
> you.
>

I think that's a good idea for 2.2.x, and I'm sorry I didn't catch it
before.
As you say, the rest of the commit is fine, and helpful.

Richard

Re: please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Guillaume Munch]

Le 23/10/2016 à 23:20, Uwe Stöhr a écrit :

commit a36706c3ffe9570588962a5ad3206d57e63ffcfd
Author: Guillaume Munch 
Date:   Sun Aug 28 21:57:17 2016 +0100

Better title for ViewSource


Sorry for being quite rude here:
I am strictly opposed to these changes. LyX 2.2.x are bugfix releases.
If the developers agree also some new features can go in. But these
string changes are completely unnecessary in a bugfix release.

The documentation is for all 2.2.x releases, as their title says. Unless
bugs are fixed, there is no reason to change menu names. The consequence
is that the docs of 2.2.x would differ for every release in a way that
new users don't find the appropriate menu name.

I can also not find a discussion where we made a decision to rename menu
names without fixing a bug in a bugfix release.

Therefore please revert these renamings.

In general, what is the benefit of renaming
"Source Pane|S"
to
"Code Preview Pane|P" ?
I cannot see any advantage other than a lot of works to update the docs
and the Wiki pages.
Moreover, this changes the accelerator key. So you force users to learn
a new one one an unchanged feature.
Source is the Code.  So what?

thanks and regards



Hi Uwe,


You are not being rude at all, in fact you are quite polite. And it is
not too late to re-open an old discussion given that nothing has been
released yet.

First, surely you do not mean to revert the entire commit. The main
purpose of the patch is to change the title of GuiViewSource to "LaTeX
(pdflatex) preview", "LyXHTML preview", etc. The default title "Code
Preview" does not appear in practice. I think you are mainly referring
to the change in the menu name.

During the discussions, I saw some confusion about the meaning of
"source" and "code", and you even say that they mean the same to you.
This is not true, and this change is meant for people who make the
distinction. You say that it does not fix a bug, but I already explained
that the former name introduced the confusion that LyX is a LaTeX
editor. Maybe I was not clear enough, I am really concrete here: I saw
new users (coming from LaTeX) focusing on GuiViewSource, trying hard to
"edit" the ViewSourceWidget, thinking it was really the source, and
ending up very disappointed.

I have to admit that I was careless about changing the accelerator. I
understand your point. I think that the best solution instead is to have
"Code Preview Pane|S" as a reminiscence of the former name (just like
GuiViewSource is going to remain GuiViewSource). I am ready to have this
cosmetic discrepancy to fix such an issue.

I can revert the menu name to "Source Pane" in 2.2.x for the
documentation reasons you gave. I can also revert it in master if
the majority wants it. But I hope that my explanation reassured
you.


Guillaume

please revert: [LyX/2.2.x] Better title for ViewSource

[Uwe Stöhr]

commit a36706c3ffe9570588962a5ad3206d57e63ffcfd
Author: Guillaume Munch 
Date:   Sun Aug 28 21:57:17 2016 +0100

Better title for ViewSource


Sorry for being quite rude here:
I am strictly opposed to these changes. LyX 2.2.x are bugfix releases. 
If the developers agree also some new features can go in. But these 
string changes are completely unnecessary in a bugfix release.


The documentation is for all 2.2.x releases, as their title says. Unless 
bugs are fixed, there is no reason to change menu names. The consequence 
is that the docs of 2.2.x would differ for every release in a way that 
new users don't find the appropriate menu name.


I can also not find a discussion where we made a decision to rename menu 
names without fixing a bug in a bugfix release.


Therefore please revert these renamings.

In general, what is the benefit of renaming
"Source Pane|S"
to
"Code Preview Pane|P" ?
I cannot see any advantage other than a lot of works to update the docs 
and the Wiki pages.
Moreover, this changes the accelerator key. So you force users to learn 
a new one one an unchanged feature.

Source is the Code.  So what?

thanks and regards
Uwe