Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Would that actually work? I'm trying it! Thanks! On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:54 PM you got me wrote: > one thing. there is a m100 like rom that is at the bare minimum= the > one for the KC-85. > > https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgRHXuUu57CeghxpVZyWgczeBWxO > <https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgRHXuUu57CeghxpVZyWgczeBWxO> > kc 85.zip <https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgRHXuUu57CeghxpVZyWgczeBWxO> > Shared via OneDrive > > -- > *From:* M100 on behalf of Stephen > Adolph > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 4:06:18 PM > *To:* m...@bitchin100.com > *Subject:* Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > I created an M100 rom variant, that was fully compatible, that had a ~100 > byte hole in it. might be useful. > > > On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:53 AM Ken Pettit wrote: > > You mean the word "TEENY"? Yes, I think so. There are 6 unused bytes > (currently NOPs) at the end of the M100 ROM! ;) > > Okay, taking the question seriously, based on what you are willing to > remove, there is space for just about anything. But you have to give up > something. > > Ken > > On 9/12/18 12:31 AM, VANDEN BOSSCHE JAN wrote: > > Is there enough place in the main ROM to squeeze in TEENY ? > > > > Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus / Jan-80@work > > > > *From:* M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com > ] *On Behalf Of *John R. Hogerhuis > *Sent:* woensdag 12 september 2018 0:45 > *To:* m...@bitchin100.com > *Subject:* Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > > > > > > -- bkw
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
one thing. there is a m100 like rom that is at the bare minimum= the one for the KC-85. https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgRHXuUu57CeghxpVZyWgczeBWxO [https://r1.res.office365.com/owa/prem/images/dc-zip_40.png]<https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgRHXuUu57CeghxpVZyWgczeBWxO> kc 85.zip<https://1drv.ms/u/s!AgRHXuUu57CeghxpVZyWgczeBWxO> Shared via OneDrive From: M100 on behalf of Stephen Adolph Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 4:06:18 PM To: m...@bitchin100.com Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games I created an M100 rom variant, that was fully compatible, that had a ~100 byte hole in it. might be useful. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:53 AM Ken Pettit mailto:petti...@gmail.com>> wrote: You mean the word "TEENY"? Yes, I think so. There are 6 unused bytes (currently NOPs) at the end of the M100 ROM! ;) Okay, taking the question seriously, based on what you are willing to remove, there is space for just about anything. But you have to give up something. Ken On 9/12/18 12:31 AM, VANDEN BOSSCHE JAN wrote: Is there enough place in the main ROM to squeeze in TEENY ? Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus / Jan-80@work From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of John R. Hogerhuis Sent: woensdag 12 september 2018 0:45 To: m...@bitchin100.com<mailto:m...@bitchin100.com> Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
I created an M100 rom variant, that was fully compatible, that had a ~100 byte hole in it. might be useful. On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 10:53 AM Ken Pettit wrote: > You mean the word "TEENY"? Yes, I think so. There are 6 unused bytes > (currently NOPs) at the end of the M100 ROM! ;) > > Okay, taking the question seriously, based on what you are willing to > remove, there is space for just about anything. But you have to give up > something. > > Ken > > On 9/12/18 12:31 AM, VANDEN BOSSCHE JAN wrote: > > Is there enough place in the main ROM to squeeze in TEENY ? > > > > Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus / Jan-80@work > > > > *From:* M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com > ] *On Behalf Of *John R. Hogerhuis > *Sent:* woensdag 12 september 2018 0:45 > *To:* m...@bitchin100.com > *Subject:* Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > > > > > >
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
You mean the word "TEENY"? Yes, I think so. There are 6 unused bytes (currently NOPs) at the end of the M100 ROM! ;) Okay, taking the question seriously, based on what you are willing to remove, there is space for just about anything. But you have to give up something. Ken On 9/12/18 12:31 AM, VANDEN BOSSCHE JAN wrote: Is there enough place in the main ROM to squeeze in TEENY ? Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus / Jan-80@work *From:*M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] *On Behalf Of *John R. Hogerhuis *Sent:* woensdag 12 september 2018 0:45 *To:* m...@bitchin100.com *Subject:* Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Is there enough place in the main ROM to squeeze in TEENY ? Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus / Jan-80@work From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of John R. Hogerhuis Sent: woensdag 12 september 2018 0:45 To: m...@bitchin100.com Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:39 PM John Gardner mailto:gof...@gmail.com>> wrote: ...If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it be a tpdd dos, or xmodem? How about Z-Modem? "8) Zmodem (which AFAIK there is no implementation of). -- John. VIVAQUA et HYDROBRU ont fusionné. VIVAQUA est votre société d'eau en Région de Bruxelles-Capitale. VIVAQUA en HYDROBRU zijn gefusioneerd. VIVAQUA is uw waterbedrijf in het Brusselse Hoofdstedelijk Gewest. [http://www.vivaqua.be/facebook.png] Rejoignez-nous sur Facebook - Volg ons op Facebook DISCLAIMER Pensez à l'environnement, n'imprimez cette page et ses annexes que si c'est nécessaire. Ce message électronique, y compris ses annexes, est confidentiel et réservé à l’attention de son destinataire. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire de ce message, merci de le détruire et d’en informer l’expéditeur. Toute divulgation, copie ou utilisation de ce mail est dans ce cas interdite. La sécurité et l'exactitude des transmissions de messages électroniques ne peuvent être garanties. Denk aan het milieu; druk deze pagina en de bijlagen alleen af als het nodig is. Dit e-mailbericht (inclusief zijn bijlagen) is vertrouwelijk en is uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Als dit bericht niet voor u bestemd is, wordt u verzocht het te wissen en de afzender te informeren. Het is in dat geval niet toegestaan dit bericht te verspreiden, te kopiëren of te gebruiken. We kunnen niet garanderen dat de gegevensoverdracht via het internet veilig en nauwkeurig is.
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Zmodem's a load, Roger that... "8)
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:39 PM John Gardner wrote: > ...If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it > be a tpdd dos, or xmodem? > > How about Z-Modem? "8) > > Zmodem (which AFAIK there is no implementation of). -- John.
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
And in any event, I did actually say "I think I might actually go with xmodem or y or zmodem or kermit etc,.." On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 6:42 PM Brian White wrote: > I assume zmodem is out of the question for an 8085 with 32k of main rom > which is mostly already used up by...main rom. > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 6:39 PM John Gardner wrote: > >> ...If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it >> be a tpdd dos, or xmodem? >> >> How about Z-Modem? "8) >> >> On 9/11/18, Kurt McCullum wrote: >> > UR-II and Sardine both have TS-DOS code that is stripped down to the >> > bare minimum. Basically just a loader for a specific filename ( >> DOS100.CO >> > or SAR100.CO). Sardine has the same loader plus a couple other >> features. >> > The TPDD protocol works. It may not be the 'standard' for anything but >> > our Model-Ts but after all these years that's what we've got. Having TS- >> > DOS in ROM solves a lot of problems. >> > Kurt >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Brian White wrote: >> >> If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it be >> >> a tpdd dos, or xmodem?> >> >> Remember, tpdd was only one of a few different kinds of disks, it's >> >> only a sort of defacto standard now because of various reasons, >> >> probably mostly because it works over the serial port and the protocol >> >> was simple enough to be reverse engineered and re-implimented by >> >> others, making all the emulators possible.> If I had to choose one >> thing >> >> to go right into the main rom, I think I >> >> might actually go with xmodem or y or zmodem or kermit etc, some >> >> standard generic binary capable serial protocol, rather than tpdd. And >> >> rts/cts support in TELCOM & BASIC.> That's probably the single thing >> about >> >> the 600 that I like. It has >> >> xmodem built in to it's telcom app, and that makes it no problem to >> >> recover from resets any time any where. You can regenerate the utility >> >> disk and install BASIC from scratch with just a serial cable and the >> >> downloaded files.> What other things would people say should be in >> there, >> >> after 30 years >> >> of hindsight? How about, rather than some more software baked in, just >> >> more, and more useful hooks? Like how UR2 loads TS-DOS without >> >> containing TS-DOS, or like the few hooks that do exist that the DVI >> >> uses, but more and better?> How about... the MFORTH rom with a minimal >> set >> >> of baked-in features, >> >> maybe implemented in forth themselves. Like right now there are a >> >> bunch of ML routines that various utils and BASIC all use, while this >> >> would be forth has all the ml, and everything else just uses forth. >> >> And the bulk of apps and utils would be forth programs in ram and as >> >> little as possible in rom. Use as much of the rom space as possible to >> >> make forth itself as good as possible. And the rom just has enough >> >> features baked-in to make it easy to load the real apps from elsewhere >> >> any time.> I guess really I wouldn't want any rom at all except just >> >> something >> >> tiny that didn't do anything except load the real "os" from somewhere >> >> else, so you could do that forth idea and then have an updated forth >> >> the next year, but I'm trying to stay within the context of 1983 and >> >> Tandy's cost and time limits.> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:03 PM Kevin Becker >> >> wrote:>> SCHEDL and ADDRSS could both go for >> me, >> >> but I suspect they are >> >>> pretty small>> >> >>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:56 PM, you got me >> >>> wrote:>>> would ts-dos fit on the main rom if >> >>> SCHEDULE was taken off? Who >> >>>> uses that?>>> >> >>>> *From:* M100 on behalf of Kurt >> >>>> McCullum *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2018 >> >>>> 7:42:24 PM *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com *Subject:* Re: [M100] >> >>>> call for programs and games>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and >> >>>> 8300) have multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
I assume zmodem is out of the question for an 8085 with 32k of main rom which is mostly already used up by...main rom. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 6:39 PM John Gardner wrote: > ...If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it > be a tpdd dos, or xmodem? > > How about Z-Modem? "8) > > On 9/11/18, Kurt McCullum wrote: > > UR-II and Sardine both have TS-DOS code that is stripped down to the > > bare minimum. Basically just a loader for a specific filename (DOS100.CO > > or SAR100.CO). Sardine has the same loader plus a couple other features. > > The TPDD protocol works. It may not be the 'standard' for anything but > > our Model-Ts but after all these years that's what we've got. Having TS- > > DOS in ROM solves a lot of problems. > > Kurt > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Brian White wrote: > >> If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it be > >> a tpdd dos, or xmodem?> > >> Remember, tpdd was only one of a few different kinds of disks, it's > >> only a sort of defacto standard now because of various reasons, > >> probably mostly because it works over the serial port and the protocol > >> was simple enough to be reverse engineered and re-implimented by > >> others, making all the emulators possible.> If I had to choose one thing > >> to go right into the main rom, I think I > >> might actually go with xmodem or y or zmodem or kermit etc, some > >> standard generic binary capable serial protocol, rather than tpdd. And > >> rts/cts support in TELCOM & BASIC.> That's probably the single thing > about > >> the 600 that I like. It has > >> xmodem built in to it's telcom app, and that makes it no problem to > >> recover from resets any time any where. You can regenerate the utility > >> disk and install BASIC from scratch with just a serial cable and the > >> downloaded files.> What other things would people say should be in > there, > >> after 30 years > >> of hindsight? How about, rather than some more software baked in, just > >> more, and more useful hooks? Like how UR2 loads TS-DOS without > >> containing TS-DOS, or like the few hooks that do exist that the DVI > >> uses, but more and better?> How about... the MFORTH rom with a minimal > set > >> of baked-in features, > >> maybe implemented in forth themselves. Like right now there are a > >> bunch of ML routines that various utils and BASIC all use, while this > >> would be forth has all the ml, and everything else just uses forth. > >> And the bulk of apps and utils would be forth programs in ram and as > >> little as possible in rom. Use as much of the rom space as possible to > >> make forth itself as good as possible. And the rom just has enough > >> features baked-in to make it easy to load the real apps from elsewhere > >> any time.> I guess really I wouldn't want any rom at all except just > >> something > >> tiny that didn't do anything except load the real "os" from somewhere > >> else, so you could do that forth idea and then have an updated forth > >> the next year, but I'm trying to stay within the context of 1983 and > >> Tandy's cost and time limits.> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:03 PM Kevin Becker > >> wrote:>> SCHEDL and ADDRSS could both go for > me, > >> but I suspect they are > >>> pretty small>> > >>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:56 PM, you got me > >>> wrote:>>> would ts-dos fit on the main rom if > >>> SCHEDULE was taken off? Who > >>>> uses that?>>> > >>>> *From:* M100 on behalf of Kurt > >>>> McCullum *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2018 > >>>> 7:42:24 PM *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com *Subject:* Re: [M100] > >>>> call for programs and games>>> > >>>> > >>>> This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and > >>>> 8300) have multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is identical to the > >>>> 27c256 ROM with the exception of pin 1 which is for address 15. > >>>> Could a 27C512 be inserted with pin 1 bent to stick out to the side > >>>> and then a wire run from pin 1 to the enable pin of bank 2? So > >>>> switching banks also switches OptRoms?>>> > >>>> I have read an article about installing a switch to do this but I > >>>> wasn't sure if this could be done by taping the
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:34 PM Kurt McCullum wrote: > UR-II and Sardine both have TS-DOS code that is stripped down to the bare > minimum. Basically just a loader for a specific filename (DOS100.CO or > SAR100.CO). Sardine has the same loader plus a couple other features. > > The TPDD protocol works. It may not be the 'standard' for anything but our > Model-Ts but after all these years that's what we've got. Having TS-DOS in > ROM solves a lot of problems. > > Kurt > > Come to think of it, if one were to get rid of something cohesive in the ROM, probably it's cassette support and maybe 300 baud modem stuff (probably not much there). And put in a DOS loader as you suggest. Or *maybe* TEENY would fit. Probably not, but maybe. Of course you will break some applications and optroms that have any dependency on bytes in the cassette code. And I do mean bytes... some things just depend on short subroutines or just raw data content of the ROM for various tricks. In CloudT I hook all the cassette stuff to create a simple file/load save system to a browser file queue because there is a bunch of code there that knows how to deal with the Model T file system and formats. It was a hack but it works. -- John.
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
...If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it be a tpdd dos, or xmodem? How about Z-Modem? "8) On 9/11/18, Kurt McCullum wrote: > UR-II and Sardine both have TS-DOS code that is stripped down to the > bare minimum. Basically just a loader for a specific filename (DOS100.CO > or SAR100.CO). Sardine has the same loader plus a couple other features. > The TPDD protocol works. It may not be the 'standard' for anything but > our Model-Ts but after all these years that's what we've got. Having TS- > DOS in ROM solves a lot of problems. > Kurt > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Brian White wrote: >> If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it be >> a tpdd dos, or xmodem?> >> Remember, tpdd was only one of a few different kinds of disks, it's >> only a sort of defacto standard now because of various reasons, >> probably mostly because it works over the serial port and the protocol >> was simple enough to be reverse engineered and re-implimented by >> others, making all the emulators possible.> If I had to choose one thing >> to go right into the main rom, I think I >> might actually go with xmodem or y or zmodem or kermit etc, some >> standard generic binary capable serial protocol, rather than tpdd. And >> rts/cts support in TELCOM & BASIC.> That's probably the single thing about >> the 600 that I like. It has >> xmodem built in to it's telcom app, and that makes it no problem to >> recover from resets any time any where. You can regenerate the utility >> disk and install BASIC from scratch with just a serial cable and the >> downloaded files.> What other things would people say should be in there, >> after 30 years >> of hindsight? How about, rather than some more software baked in, just >> more, and more useful hooks? Like how UR2 loads TS-DOS without >> containing TS-DOS, or like the few hooks that do exist that the DVI >> uses, but more and better?> How about... the MFORTH rom with a minimal set >> of baked-in features, >> maybe implemented in forth themselves. Like right now there are a >> bunch of ML routines that various utils and BASIC all use, while this >> would be forth has all the ml, and everything else just uses forth. >> And the bulk of apps and utils would be forth programs in ram and as >> little as possible in rom. Use as much of the rom space as possible to >> make forth itself as good as possible. And the rom just has enough >> features baked-in to make it easy to load the real apps from elsewhere >> any time.> I guess really I wouldn't want any rom at all except just >> something >> tiny that didn't do anything except load the real "os" from somewhere >> else, so you could do that forth idea and then have an updated forth >> the next year, but I'm trying to stay within the context of 1983 and >> Tandy's cost and time limits.> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:03 PM Kevin Becker >> wrote:>> SCHEDL and ADDRSS could both go for me, >> but I suspect they are >>> pretty small>> >>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:56 PM, you got me >>> wrote:>>> would ts-dos fit on the main rom if >>> SCHEDULE was taken off? Who >>>> uses that?>>> >>>> *From:* M100 on behalf of Kurt >>>> McCullum *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2018 >>>> 7:42:24 PM *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com *Subject:* Re: [M100] >>>> call for programs and games>>> >>>> >>>> This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and >>>> 8300) have multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is identical to the >>>> 27c256 ROM with the exception of pin 1 which is for address 15. >>>> Could a 27C512 be inserted with pin 1 bent to stick out to the side >>>> and then a wire run from pin 1 to the enable pin of bank 2? So >>>> switching banks also switches OptRoms?>>> >>>> I have read an article about installing a switch to do this but I >>>> wasn't sure if this could be done by taping the existing hardware.>>> >>>> Kurt >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Another simple approach that's often used is to have an adapter >>>>> with an (E)EPROM large enough to hold several ROM images and a >>>>> physical (or logical) switch to select among them (essentially what >>>>> my adapter does, but with only one OptROM image).>>>> >>>>> Unfortunate
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
UR-II and Sardine both have TS-DOS code that is stripped down to the bare minimum. Basically just a loader for a specific filename (DOS100.CO or SAR100.CO). Sardine has the same loader plus a couple other features. The TPDD protocol works. It may not be the 'standard' for anything but our Model-Ts but after all these years that's what we've got. Having TS- DOS in ROM solves a lot of problems. Kurt On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Brian White wrote: > If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it be > a tpdd dos, or xmodem?> > Remember, tpdd was only one of a few different kinds of disks, it's > only a sort of defacto standard now because of various reasons, > probably mostly because it works over the serial port and the protocol > was simple enough to be reverse engineered and re-implimented by > others, making all the emulators possible.> If I had to choose one thing to > go right into the main rom, I think I > might actually go with xmodem or y or zmodem or kermit etc, some > standard generic binary capable serial protocol, rather than tpdd. And > rts/cts support in TELCOM & BASIC.> That's probably the single thing about > the 600 that I like. It has > xmodem built in to it's telcom app, and that makes it no problem to > recover from resets any time any where. You can regenerate the utility > disk and install BASIC from scratch with just a serial cable and the > downloaded files.> What other things would people say should be in there, > after 30 years > of hindsight? How about, rather than some more software baked in, just > more, and more useful hooks? Like how UR2 loads TS-DOS without > containing TS-DOS, or like the few hooks that do exist that the DVI > uses, but more and better?> How about... the MFORTH rom with a minimal set of > baked-in features, > maybe implemented in forth themselves. Like right now there are a > bunch of ML routines that various utils and BASIC all use, while this > would be forth has all the ml, and everything else just uses forth. > And the bulk of apps and utils would be forth programs in ram and as > little as possible in rom. Use as much of the rom space as possible to > make forth itself as good as possible. And the rom just has enough > features baked-in to make it easy to load the real apps from elsewhere > any time.> I guess really I wouldn't want any rom at all except just something > tiny that didn't do anything except load the real "os" from somewhere > else, so you could do that forth idea and then have an updated forth > the next year, but I'm trying to stay within the context of 1983 and > Tandy's cost and time limits.> > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:03 PM Kevin Becker > wrote:>> SCHEDL and ADDRSS could both go for me, but > I suspect they are >> pretty small>> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:56 PM, you got me >> wrote:>>> would ts-dos fit on the main rom if SCHEDULE >> was taken off? Who >>> uses that?>>> >>> *From:* M100 on behalf of Kurt >>> McCullum *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2018 >>> 7:42:24 PM *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com *Subject:* Re: [M100] >>> call for programs and games>>> >>> >>> This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and >>> 8300) have multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is identical to the >>> 27c256 ROM with the exception of pin 1 which is for address 15. >>> Could a 27C512 be inserted with pin 1 bent to stick out to the side >>> and then a wire run from pin 1 to the enable pin of bank 2? So >>> switching banks also switches OptRoms?>>> >>> I have read an article about installing a switch to do this but I >>> wasn't sure if this could be done by taping the existing hardware.>>> >>> Kurt >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >>>> >>>> Another simple approach that's often used is to have an adapter >>>> with an (E)EPROM large enough to hold several ROM images and a >>>> physical (or logical) switch to select among them (essentially what >>>> my adapter does, but with only one OptROM image).>>>> >>>> Unfortunately there's very little vertical clearance in these >>>> babies so there's not much room to use the old trick of stacking >>>> several chips with the select lines brought out the side. I haven't >>>> looked at my T102 but in the M100 there is enough room for one piggy- >>>> backed chip which would give you at least three 32KB OptROM images, >>>> but it does lift the keyboard slightly unless you remove the >>&
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
If you could make room for only one thing in the main rom, would it be a tpdd dos, or xmodem? Remember, tpdd was only one of a few different kinds of disks, it's only a sort of defacto standard now because of various reasons, probably mostly because it works over the serial port and the protocol was simple enough to be reverse engineered and re-implimented by others, making all the emulators possible. If I had to choose one thing to go right into the main rom, I think I might actually go with xmodem or y or zmodem or kermit etc, some standard generic binary capable serial protocol, rather than tpdd. And rts/cts support in TELCOM & BASIC. That's probably the single thing about the 600 that I like. It has xmodem built in to it's telcom app, and that makes it no problem to recover from resets any time any where. You can regenerate the utility disk and install BASIC from scratch with just a serial cable and the downloaded files. What other things would people say should be in there, after 30 years of hindsight? How about, rather than some more software baked in, just more, and more useful hooks? Like how UR2 loads TS-DOS without containing TS-DOS, or like the few hooks that do exist that the DVI uses, but more and better? How about... the MFORTH rom with a minimal set of baked-in features, maybe implemented in forth themselves. Like right now there are a bunch of ML routines that various utils and BASIC all use, while this would be forth has all the ml, and everything else just uses forth. And the bulk of apps and utils would be forth programs in ram and as little as possible in rom. Use as much of the rom space as possible to make forth itself as good as possible. And the rom just has enough features baked-in to make it easy to load the real apps from elsewhere any time. I guess really I wouldn't want any rom at all except just something tiny that didn't do anything except load the real "os" from somewhere else, so you could do that forth idea and then have an updated forth the next year, but I'm trying to stay within the context of 1983 and Tandy's cost and time limits. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 4:03 PM Kevin Becker wrote: > SCHEDL and ADDRSS could both go for me, but I suspect they are pretty small > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:56 PM, you got me wrote: > >> would ts-dos fit on the main rom if SCHEDULE was taken off? Who uses that? >> -- >> *From:* M100 on behalf of Kurt >> McCullum >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2018 7:42:24 PM >> *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com >> *Subject:* Re: [M100] call for programs and games >> >> This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and 8300) >> have multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is identical to the 27c256 ROM with >> the exception of pin 1 which is for address 15. Could a 27C512 be inserted >> with pin 1 bent to stick out to the side and then a wire run from pin 1 to >> the enable pin of bank 2? So switching banks also switches OptRoms? >> >> I have read an article about installing a switch to do this but I wasn't >> sure if this could be done by taping the existing hardware. >> >> Kurt >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> >> >> Another simple approach that's often used is to have an adapter with an >> (E)EPROM large enough to hold several ROM images and a physical (or >> logical) switch to select among them (essentially what my adapter does, but >> with only one OptROM image). >> >> Unfortunately there's very little vertical clearance in these babies so >> there's not much room to use the old trick of stacking several chips with >> the select lines brought out the side. I haven't looked at my T102 but in >> the M100 there is enough room for one piggy-backed chip which would give >> you at least three 32KB OptROM images, but it does lift the keyboard >> slightly unless you remove the socket; depending on the socket used you >> might also gain some clearance if you trim the IC leads. >> >> Another approach to using several and/or larger ROMs is to make a little >> board that puts the chips upside down in the space beside the system ROM; >> as a matter of fact the plan with this prototype board was to add another >> RAM or ROM socket beside the existing one: >> >> >> >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Greg Swallow" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:34 AM >> Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games >> >> > Multiple ROMs would be easy enough with a REX. Of course if the REX >> goes, you could be out of luck. >> >> >> > -- bkw
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Sched is itty bitty. Plus it's cool. If folks are not using it, probably don't know what it is. It's an ingenious little line oriented text database that you can use for anything you want. Really all it is is a super simple text search that shows you matching lines but that goes a long way with very few code bytes. I suggest looking at the the David Lien book for inspiration on how to use the text databases. There is almost no room in the main rom for anything. And the code is highly optimized interdependent unseparable ball of spaghetti. Plus no one really changes the rom because you never know what programs depend on. It would break stuff. It's good spaghetti though. -- John. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 12:56 PM you got me wrote: > would ts-dos fit on the main rom if SCHEDULE was taken off? Who uses that? > -- > *From:* M100 on behalf of Kurt > McCullum > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2018 7:42:24 PM > *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com > *Subject:* Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and 8300) have > multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is identical to the 27c256 ROM with the > exception of pin 1 which is for address 15. Could a 27C512 be inserted with > pin 1 bent to stick out to the side and then a wire run from pin 1 to the > enable pin of bank 2? So switching banks also switches OptRoms? > > I have read an article about installing a switch to do this but I wasn't > sure if this could be done by taping the existing hardware. > > Kurt > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > > Another simple approach that's often used is to have an adapter with an > (E)EPROM large enough to hold several ROM images and a physical (or > logical) switch to select among them (essentially what my adapter does, but > with only one OptROM image). > > Unfortunately there's very little vertical clearance in these babies so > there's not much room to use the old trick of stacking several chips with > the select lines brought out the side. I haven't looked at my T102 but in > the M100 there is enough room for one piggy-backed chip which would give > you at least three 32KB OptROM images, but it does lift the keyboard > slightly unless you remove the socket; depending on the socket used you > might also gain some clearance if you trim the IC leads. > > Another approach to using several and/or larger ROMs is to make a little > board that puts the chips upside down in the space beside the system ROM; > as a matter of fact the plan with this prototype board was to add another > RAM or ROM socket beside the existing one: > > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Greg Swallow" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:34 AM > Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > > Multiple ROMs would be easy enough with a REX. Of course if the REX > goes, you could be out of luck. > > >
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
SCHEDL and ADDRSS could both go for me, but I suspect they are pretty small On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 3:56 PM, you got me wrote: > would ts-dos fit on the main rom if SCHEDULE was taken off? Who uses that? > -- > *From:* M100 on behalf of Kurt > McCullum > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 11, 2018 7:42:24 PM > *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com > *Subject:* Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and 8300) have > multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is identical to the 27c256 ROM with the > exception of pin 1 which is for address 15. Could a 27C512 be inserted with > pin 1 bent to stick out to the side and then a wire run from pin 1 to the > enable pin of bank 2? So switching banks also switches OptRoms? > > I have read an article about installing a switch to do this but I wasn't > sure if this could be done by taping the existing hardware. > > Kurt > > > On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > > Another simple approach that's often used is to have an adapter with an > (E)EPROM large enough to hold several ROM images and a physical (or > logical) switch to select among them (essentially what my adapter does, but > with only one OptROM image). > > Unfortunately there's very little vertical clearance in these babies so > there's not much room to use the old trick of stacking several chips with > the select lines brought out the side. I haven't looked at my T102 but in > the M100 there is enough room for one piggy-backed chip which would give > you at least three 32KB OptROM images, but it does lift the keyboard > slightly unless you remove the socket; depending on the socket used you > might also gain some clearance if you trim the IC leads. > > Another approach to using several and/or larger ROMs is to make a little > board that puts the chips upside down in the space beside the system ROM; > as a matter of fact the plan with this prototype board was to add another > RAM or ROM socket beside the existing one: > > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Greg Swallow" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:34 AM > Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > > Multiple ROMs would be easy enough with a REX. Of course if the REX > goes, you could be out of luck. > > >
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
would ts-dos fit on the main rom if SCHEDULE was taken off? Who uses that? From: M100 on behalf of Kurt McCullum Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 7:42:24 PM To: m100@lists.bitchin100.com Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and 8300) have multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is identical to the 27c256 ROM with the exception of pin 1 which is for address 15. Could a 27C512 be inserted with pin 1 bent to stick out to the side and then a wire run from pin 1 to the enable pin of bank 2? So switching banks also switches OptRoms? I have read an article about installing a switch to do this but I wasn't sure if this could be done by taping the existing hardware. Kurt On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Mike Stein wrote: Another simple approach that's often used is to have an adapter with an (E)EPROM large enough to hold several ROM images and a physical (or logical) switch to select among them (essentially what my adapter does, but with only one OptROM image). Unfortunately there's very little vertical clearance in these babies so there's not much room to use the old trick of stacking several chips with the select lines brought out the side. I haven't looked at my T102 but in the M100 there is enough room for one piggy-backed chip which would give you at least three 32KB OptROM images, but it does lift the keyboard slightly unless you remove the socket; depending on the socket used you might also gain some clearance if you trim the IC leads. Another approach to using several and/or larger ROMs is to make a little board that puts the chips upside down in the space beside the system ROM; as a matter of fact the plan with this prototype board was to add another RAM or ROM socket beside the existing one: [cid:9214B61DEE7143D89836A26EE9CD94D5@310e2] [cid:725B1C8D815D4C9DAAD31C91CC30ED7E@310e2] - Original Message - From: "Greg Swallow" mailto:gswal...@mchsi.com>> To: mailto:m...@bitchin100.com>> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games > Multiple ROMs would be easy enough with a REX. Of course if the REX goes, you > could be out of luck.
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
This brings a question to mind. The Tandy 200 and NEC 8201 (and 8300) have multiple banks. Since the 27c512 is identical to the 27c256 ROM with the exception of pin 1 which is for address 15. Could a 27C512 be inserted with pin 1 bent to stick out to the side and then a wire run from pin 1 to the enable pin of bank 2? So switching banks also switches OptRoms? I have read an article about installing a switch to do this but I wasn't sure if this could be done by taping the existing hardware. Kurt On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 9:36 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > Another simple approach that's often used is to have an adapter with > an (E)EPROM large enough to hold several ROM images and a physical (or > logical) switch to select among them (essentially what my adapter > does, but with only one OptROM image).> > Unfortunately there's very little vertical clearance in these babies > so there's not much room to use the old trick of stacking several > chips with the select lines brought out the side. I haven't looked at > my T102 but in the M100 there is enough room for one piggy-backed > chip which would give you at least three 32KB OptROM images, but it > does lift the keyboard slightly unless you remove the socket; > depending on the socket used you might also gain some clearance if > you trim the IC leads.> > Another approach to using several and/or larger ROMs is to make a > little board that puts the chips upside down in the space beside the > system ROM; as a matter of fact the plan with this prototype board > was to add another RAM or ROM socket beside the existing one:> > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Greg Swallow" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:34 AM > Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > > Multiple ROMs would be easy enough with a REX. Of course if the REX > > goes, you could be out of luck.
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Another simple approach that's often used is to have an adapter with an (E)EPROM large enough to hold several ROM images and a physical (or logical) switch to select among them (essentially what my adapter does, but with only one OptROM image). Unfortunately there's very little vertical clearance in these babies so there's not much room to use the old trick of stacking several chips with the select lines brought out the side. I haven't looked at my T102 but in the M100 there is enough room for one piggy-backed chip which would give you at least three 32KB OptROM images, but it does lift the keyboard slightly unless you remove the socket; depending on the socket used you might also gain some clearance if you trim the IC leads. Another approach to using several and/or larger ROMs is to make a little board that puts the chips upside down in the space beside the system ROM; as a matter of fact the plan with this prototype board was to add another RAM or ROM socket beside the existing one: - Original Message - From: "Greg Swallow" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games > Multiple ROMs would be easy enough with a REX. Of course if the REX goes, you > could be out of luck.
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Brian, Having done this myself with the SARDOS ROM, I can tell you it is not easy. I managed to merged two OPTROM images together to make one. The only reason I had success is because Traveling Software just happened to build their TS-DOS ROM in a location of the 32K OPTROM space that allowed it to sit just above the T-Word/Sardine code after removing the internal dictionary. I did have to cut some code from the end of Sardine and relocate it but not more than a couple strings of data. In theory, any CO file can be converted to an OPTROM. But whenever you make a call to the main ROM, you have to switch over to it and then come back. I don't know all the details of this process but it isn't a trivial matter. There are some nice utilities that I would love to add to SARDOS for the NEC such as the LINE command in BASIC, which is only about 750 bytes, and the bank transfer code. The space is there at the top of the 32k image but when I started looking at converting a CO file into OPTROM code, I was quickly lost. Kurt On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, at 4:59 AM, Brian White wrote: > You know... thinking about that problem of needing a way to get a dos > back if you wipe ram, why can't we have multiple roms? Would it be > theoretically possible, assuming some new hardware, to break up the > 32k rom address space into smaller seperate chunks, so instead of > having to choose ts-dos rom as your only rom, or some other whole > rom... what would it take to have a 1k or 5k chunk that is just teeny > or ts-dos that stays there all the time like a normal rom, except it's > only 1k, while the remainder can be some other rom of your choosing as > long as it fits?> > For that matter, assuming the magic fictional hardware for the moment, > why not assignable chucks through out the whole 32k? Basically so you > could have whatever combination of apps you wanted. Like a bunch of > virtual 2k chip sockets.>
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
There is SARDOS for instance - ts-dos and sardine hacked into a single ROM. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 09:34 Greg Swallow wrote: > Multiple ROMs would be easy enough with a REX. Of course if the REX goes, > you could be out of luck. > > I have invested gated in a very small state of developing a smaller OS > that would be in bits much, as I imagine, you are talking about. My > professional work started on old NCR Tower system with quarter inch tape > and Modus shared/networked hard drive systems. All of this running AT/NCR > Unix System V R3.2. My personal computers at the time were a Color Computer > 1 with 512k and 4 FDD running OS-9 Level 1 and my M100. OS-9 has a similar > structure in that the kernel boots it all to a prompt and nearly all > commands are called from disk. > > Something along these lines might be the way to go. I have been wondering > if something could be written using Mike Stein's PCB with a 27C512. The > System ROM space holding the kernel and the Option ROM space other commands > including BASIC, TELCOM, TEXT, ADDRSS, and SCHEDL. This would leave room > for commands plus TPDD and DVI support/bootstrap in the System ROM. The OS > commands could be called on by the kernel when used at a prompt. For > example: > > RAM> FILES 0:*.* > > Might CALL 63012 passing 0:*.* to the command of call another off set > (63023) for a different command. It wouldn't be CP/M let alone Unix, but it > could be useful. I suppose the same thing could be done with a REX so that > someone could have other ROMware installed; e.g. Ultimate or Super ROM. > > Am I way off in my thinking? Maybe this is were the CP/M for M100 was > going. > > > God Bless, > > GregS <>< > > - Original Message ----- > From: "Brian White" > To: m...@bitchin100.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 4:59:47 AM > Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games > > You know... thinking about that problem of needing a way to get a dos back > if you wipe ram, why can't we have multiple roms? Would it be theoretically > possible, assuming some new hardware, to break up the 32k rom address space > into smaller seperate chunks, so instead of having to choose ts-dos rom as > your only rom, or some other whole rom... what would it take to have a 1k > or 5k chunk that is just teeny or ts-dos that stays there all the time like > a normal rom, except it's only 1k, while the remainder can be some other > rom of your choosing as long as it fits? > > For that matter, assuming the magic fictional hardware for the moment, why > not assignable chucks through out the whole 32k? Basically so you could > have whatever combination of apps you wanted. Like a bunch of virtual 2k > chip sockets. > > Just in theory I mean. Of course I know no existing roms can operate this > way simply because they weren't written to. > > Maybe what we *could* have, is a rom image builder, where you pick .co apps > in a ui, and it spits out a rom image. I assume the apps would each need to > be modified along the way by the image builder. It might have to supply a > menu too. Kind of like rex & rexmgr, but working within a single rom, and > not needing any special hardware to actually do the switching that rex > does. no cpld. Just a thing that outputs a single rom image that only needs > to be flashed to a plain old 32k rom. Like a build-your-own-UR2. >
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Multiple ROMs would be easy enough with a REX. Of course if the REX goes, you could be out of luck. I have invested gated in a very small state of developing a smaller OS that would be in bits much, as I imagine, you are talking about. My professional work started on old NCR Tower system with quarter inch tape and Modus shared/networked hard drive systems. All of this running AT/NCR Unix System V R3.2. My personal computers at the time were a Color Computer 1 with 512k and 4 FDD running OS-9 Level 1 and my M100. OS-9 has a similar structure in that the kernel boots it all to a prompt and nearly all commands are called from disk. Something along these lines might be the way to go. I have been wondering if something could be written using Mike Stein's PCB with a 27C512. The System ROM space holding the kernel and the Option ROM space other commands including BASIC, TELCOM, TEXT, ADDRSS, and SCHEDL. This would leave room for commands plus TPDD and DVI support/bootstrap in the System ROM. The OS commands could be called on by the kernel when used at a prompt. For example: RAM> FILES 0:*.* Might CALL 63012 passing 0:*.* to the command of call another off set (63023) for a different command. It wouldn't be CP/M let alone Unix, but it could be useful. I suppose the same thing could be done with a REX so that someone could have other ROMware installed; e.g. Ultimate or Super ROM. Am I way off in my thinking? Maybe this is were the CP/M for M100 was going. God Bless, GregS <>< - Original Message - From: "Brian White" To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2018 4:59:47 AM Subject: Re: [M100] call for programs and games You know... thinking about that problem of needing a way to get a dos back if you wipe ram, why can't we have multiple roms? Would it be theoretically possible, assuming some new hardware, to break up the 32k rom address space into smaller seperate chunks, so instead of having to choose ts-dos rom as your only rom, or some other whole rom... what would it take to have a 1k or 5k chunk that is just teeny or ts-dos that stays there all the time like a normal rom, except it's only 1k, while the remainder can be some other rom of your choosing as long as it fits? For that matter, assuming the magic fictional hardware for the moment, why not assignable chucks through out the whole 32k? Basically so you could have whatever combination of apps you wanted. Like a bunch of virtual 2k chip sockets. Just in theory I mean. Of course I know no existing roms can operate this way simply because they weren't written to. Maybe what we *could* have, is a rom image builder, where you pick .co apps in a ui, and it spits out a rom image. I assume the apps would each need to be modified along the way by the image builder. It might have to supply a menu too. Kind of like rex & rexmgr, but working within a single rom, and not needing any special hardware to actually do the switching that rex does. no cpld. Just a thing that outputs a single rom image that only needs to be flashed to a plain old 32k rom. Like a build-your-own-UR2.
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
You know... thinking about that problem of needing a way to get a dos back if you wipe ram, why can't we have multiple roms? Would it be theoretically possible, assuming some new hardware, to break up the 32k rom address space into smaller seperate chunks, so instead of having to choose ts-dos rom as your only rom, or some other whole rom... what would it take to have a 1k or 5k chunk that is just teeny or ts-dos that stays there all the time like a normal rom, except it's only 1k, while the remainder can be some other rom of your choosing as long as it fits? For that matter, assuming the magic fictional hardware for the moment, why not assignable chucks through out the whole 32k? Basically so you could have whatever combination of apps you wanted. Like a bunch of virtual 2k chip sockets. Just in theory I mean. Of course I know no existing roms can operate this way simply because they weren't written to. Maybe what we *could* have, is a rom image builder, where you pick .co apps in a ui, and it spits out a rom image. I assume the apps would each need to be modified along the way by the image builder. It might have to supply a menu too. Kind of like rex & rexmgr, but working within a single rom, and not needing any special hardware to actually do the switching that rex does. no cpld. Just a thing that outputs a single rom image that only needs to be flashed to a plain old 32k rom. Like a build-your-own-UR2. On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 5:40 AM John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > TEENY.CO is a good thing to keep as a sound file :-) > > Just be careful having it on your music player. You don't want to have > teeny playing on your car stereo. > > True story. > > -- John. >
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
TEENY.CO is a good thing to keep as a sound file :-) Just be careful having it on your music player. You don't want to have teeny playing on your car stereo. True story. -- John.
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
That's great, but, what do you think should be available in WAV format? On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 15:12, Jesus R wrote: > > Team, I now have: 1. Simple communication between my computer and my T100. 2. > I can also save files from my T100 as WAV files and upload them to Google > Docs for easy download on the go via a cell phone or computer. I only have a > few programs and games to add to my database though. If you can send me your > programs and games...I'll start adding them to my database so everyone can > access them. The programs and games should be freeware / shareware. > > Link to database: > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m7QRN1I5KpJJO_RKYnwFhmrluDjbYm6bEe_rIgz80ug/edit?usp=sharing > > Please submit the following with your files: > 1. Author name > 2. Program name > 3. Genre: game, utility, etc. > 4. Year > >
Re: [M100] call for programs and games
Have you looked at: http://bitchin100.com/wiki/index.php?title=Model_T_File_Transfer Various transfer methods described there. How about Club100.org? http://www.club100.org/ Lots of programs there, including games: http://www.club100.org/library/libgam.html Note that files ending in .DO on that site are usually instructions; files ending in .BA are usually text versions of BASIC programs that you should rename to a .DO extension before loading them into the M100 (change the name if there already is a .DO file with the same name). Some of the transfer servers will take care of this for you, but it's a good idea to check: if you open a .BA program and can actually read BASIC text then loading that file as is (without renaming to .DO) will almost certainly crash the computer. m - Original Message - From: Jesus R To: m100@lists.bitchin100.com Sent: Monday, September 10, 2018 6:12 PM Subject: [M100] call for programs and games Team, I now have: 1. Simple communication between my computer and my T100. 2. I can also save files from my T100 as WAV files and upload them to Google Docs for easy download on the go via a cell phone or computer. I only have a few programs and games to add to my database though. If you can send me your programs and games...I'll start adding them to my database so everyone can access them. The programs and games should be freeware / shareware. Link to database: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m7QRN1I5KpJJO_RKYnwFhmrluDjbYm6bEe_rIgz80ug/edit?usp=sharing Please submit the following with your files: 1. Author name 2. Program name 3. Genre: game, utility, etc. 4. Year
