Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
yes, I wrote that backwards. but thanks I feel like I got all my questions sorted. On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 12:58 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > So, hole "covered" tells the drive to write at 2x the speed! > Interesting, and makes sense. > > Well, no, hole "covered" signals 250Kbps low write current DD so if > anything it's the other way around (unless my aging brain is even more > confused than usual). > > But I think the actual data rate is determined by the controller when > writing, and the disk data when reading, so it will always be 250Kbps. > > What causes the problem IMO is that the drive electronics are 'tuned' to > the wrong frequency when it's reading 250Kbps while set to 500; some of the > newer 'intelligent' drives may even detect an error and suppress the ready > or index signals when they see this situation. > > > - Original Message ----- > From: Stephen Adolph > To: m...@bitchin100.com > Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 12:29 PM > Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. > > > Thanks Mike, that must be the answer. > > > I notice that the formatting process for an HD disk in an HD drive on the > COCO fails after the first pass on the disk formatting run. > That must mean - reading back to verify the format is failing. > > > So, hole "covered" tells the drive to write at 2x the speed! > Interesting, and makes sense. > > > and you are right, I am buying a couple of boxes of DD disks locally. > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 12:23 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > The difference in coercivity between DD and HD 3.5" diskettes is actually > relatively small, ~660 vs. ~720 Oersteds, compared to the much larger 290 > vs. 660 difference of 5.25" diskettes. > > But the thickness of the coating is also different, HD being less than > half that of DD, and different materials are used with the HD having a > finer granularity. > > Nevertheless, you can usually get away with using HD diskettes at DD (with > the hole covered if using an HD drive), although it's not quite as reliable > as using the proper media, especially regarding long-term data retention > (probably because the lower DD write current makes them more susceptible to > being erased); even the other way around often works, i.e. a DD diskette > with a hole punched at HD, although this is even less reliable. > > Anecdotally it seems that 3.5" HD diskettes in general have become > somewhat unreliable, even used at HD, which may at least partially account > for folks having issues using them at DD. > > But I think we're missing the more important issue; the reason for all > these differences is to squeeze more bits per inch on a track; unlike > 5.25", 3.5" diskettes all have 80 tracks and run at the same 300 RPM, so of > course this means that data will normally be written and read at twice the > rate in HD mode (500Kbps) than at the DD rate (250Kbps). > > I assume that the CoCo controller only transfers data at 250Kbps whereas > with the HD hole uncovered the drive will expect to see data at 500Kbps > (and use HD write current) and I suspect that's why Steve's having trouble. > > 3.5" DD diskettes are still around; why not use the right media in the > first place. > > m > - Original Message - > From: Kurt McCullum > To: m100@lists.bitchin100.com > Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 11:02 AM > Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. > > > Yeah that does sound strange. And I agree, the drive 'should' switch based > on the hole in the disk. Does it format to 720 or 1.44 when the hole is > covered? > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote: > > Kurt, agree with everything you have said. > > > > The odd thing is- > > > > * using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape, > would seem to be BAD > > ---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current settings > for the actual disk media. > > > > However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional. > > > > so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the > drive decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie". > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: > > > > The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks. It > requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD > disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's > because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
> So, hole "covered" tells the drive to write at 2x the speed! Interesting, > and makes sense. Well, no, hole "covered" signals 250Kbps low write current DD so if anything it's the other way around (unless my aging brain is even more confused than usual). But I think the actual data rate is determined by the controller when writing, and the disk data when reading, so it will always be 250Kbps. What causes the problem IMO is that the drive electronics are 'tuned' to the wrong frequency when it's reading 250Kbps while set to 500; some of the newer 'intelligent' drives may even detect an error and suppress the ready or index signals when they see this situation. - Original Message - From: Stephen Adolph To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. Thanks Mike, that must be the answer. I notice that the formatting process for an HD disk in an HD drive on the COCO fails after the first pass on the disk formatting run. That must mean - reading back to verify the format is failing. So, hole "covered" tells the drive to write at 2x the speed! Interesting, and makes sense. and you are right, I am buying a couple of boxes of DD disks locally. On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 12:23 PM Mike Stein wrote: The difference in coercivity between DD and HD 3.5" diskettes is actually relatively small, ~660 vs. ~720 Oersteds, compared to the much larger 290 vs. 660 difference of 5.25" diskettes. But the thickness of the coating is also different, HD being less than half that of DD, and different materials are used with the HD having a finer granularity. Nevertheless, you can usually get away with using HD diskettes at DD (with the hole covered if using an HD drive), although it's not quite as reliable as using the proper media, especially regarding long-term data retention (probably because the lower DD write current makes them more susceptible to being erased); even the other way around often works, i.e. a DD diskette with a hole punched at HD, although this is even less reliable. Anecdotally it seems that 3.5" HD diskettes in general have become somewhat unreliable, even used at HD, which may at least partially account for folks having issues using them at DD. But I think we're missing the more important issue; the reason for all these differences is to squeeze more bits per inch on a track; unlike 5.25", 3.5" diskettes all have 80 tracks and run at the same 300 RPM, so of course this means that data will normally be written and read at twice the rate in HD mode (500Kbps) than at the DD rate (250Kbps). I assume that the CoCo controller only transfers data at 250Kbps whereas with the HD hole uncovered the drive will expect to see data at 500Kbps (and use HD write current) and I suspect that's why Steve's having trouble. 3.5" DD diskettes are still around; why not use the right media in the first place. m - Original Message - From: Kurt McCullum To: m100@lists.bitchin100.com Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 11:02 AM Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. Yeah that does sound strange. And I agree, the drive 'should' switch based on the hole in the disk. Does it format to 720 or 1.44 when the hole is covered? On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote: Kurt, agree with everything you have said. The odd thing is- * using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape, would seem to be BAD ---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current settings for the actual disk media. However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional. so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the drive decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie". On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks. It requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for your new format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase the existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and therefore work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a sensor for the open hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher level of write energy to properly work with the media. When that hole is covered, it will use a lower level which is what the 720k media is looking for. Though I do remember that formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive didn't always work when going back to a 720k drive. Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably with HD dis
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
... But it's actually 256 bytes/sector, 18 sectors/track, 35 tracks ...
;-)
- Original Message -
From: Mike Stein
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
Sounds similar to the original IBM 5.25" format, single-sided, 512
bytes/sector, 8 sectors/track, 40 tracks, 250Kbps.
- Original Message -
From: Stephen Adolph
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
when attached to a CoCo, you get 160k.
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 11:02 AM Kurt McCullum wrote:
Yeah that does sound strange. And I agree, the drive 'should' switch
based on the hole in the disk. Does it format to 720 or 1.44 when the hole is
covered?
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote:
Kurt, agree with everything you have said.
The odd thing is-
* using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape,
would seem to be BAD
---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current
settings for the actual disk media.
However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional.
so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the
drive decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie".
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum
wrote:
The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular
disks. It requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a
blank HD disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance.
That's because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for
your new format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase
the existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and
therefore work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a sensor
for the open hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher level of
write energy to properly work with the media. When that hole is covered, it
will use a lower level which is what the 720k media is looking for. Though I do
remember that formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive didn't always work when
going back to a 720k drive.
Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably
with HD disks. I have only been able to format one properly and it had data
failure shortly after.
Kurt
On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Stephen Adolph wrote:
interestingly,
Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear
to be a DD disk, then it works.
But why?
the floppy is capable of both formats...
On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein
wrote:
Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or
similar?
- Original Message -
From: Stephen Adolph
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
the Coco is using it's standard controller
When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for
180kB.
The combination of
(Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy)
works
whereas
(Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy)
does not work
this is something I don't understand!
On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill
wrote:
likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or
high density.. most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd
40 track.. are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track?
Greg
On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph
wrote:
I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion,
but just looking to understand something.
I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The
drive is a standard PC drive and it is working well.
Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that
drive. They don't seem to want to format.
I really don't understand where the problem could be.
- the drive and the floppy are compatible
- the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC
- if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI?
Does anyone know what's going on?
thx
Steve
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
Thanks Mike, that must be the answer. I notice that the formatting process for an HD disk in an HD drive on the COCO fails after the first pass on the disk formatting run. That must mean - reading back to verify the format is failing. So, hole "covered" tells the drive to write at 2x the speed! Interesting, and makes sense. and you are right, I am buying a couple of boxes of DD disks locally. On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 12:23 PM Mike Stein wrote: > The difference in coercivity between DD and HD 3.5" diskettes is actually > relatively small, ~660 vs. ~720 Oersteds, compared to the much larger 290 > vs. 660 difference of 5.25" diskettes. > > But the thickness of the coating is also different, HD being less than > half that of DD, and different materials are used with the HD having a > finer granularity. > > Nevertheless, you can usually get away with using HD diskettes at DD (with > the hole covered if using an HD drive), although it's not quite as reliable > as using the proper media, especially regarding long-term data retention > (probably because the lower DD write current makes them more susceptible to > being erased); even the other way around often works, i.e. a DD diskette > with a hole punched at HD, although this is even less reliable. > > Anecdotally it seems that 3.5" HD diskettes in general have become > somewhat unreliable, even used at HD, which may at least partially account > for folks having issues using them at DD. > > But I think we're missing the more important issue; the reason for all > these differences is to squeeze more bits per inch on a track; unlike > 5.25", 3.5" diskettes all have 80 tracks and run at the same 300 RPM, so of > course this means that data will normally be written and read at twice the > rate in HD mode (500Kbps) than at the DD rate (250Kbps). > > I assume that the CoCo controller only transfers data at 250Kbps whereas > with the HD hole uncovered the drive will expect to see data at 500Kbps > (and use HD write current) and I suspect that's why Steve's having trouble. > > 3.5" DD diskettes are still around; why not use the right media in the > first place. > > m > > - Original Message - > *From:* Kurt McCullum > *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com > *Sent:* Monday, March 25, 2019 11:02 AM > *Subject:* Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. > > Yeah that does sound strange. And I agree, the drive 'should' switch based > on the hole in the disk. Does it format to 720 or 1.44 when the hole is > covered? > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote: > > Kurt, agree with everything you have said. > > The odd thing is- > > * using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape, > would seem to be BAD > ---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current settings > for the actual disk media. > > However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional. > > so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the > drive decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie". > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: > > > The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks. It > requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD > disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's > because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for your > new format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase > the existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and > therefore work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a > sensor for the open hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher > level of write energy to properly work with the media. When that hole is > covered, it will use a lower level which is what the 720k media is looking > for. Though I do remember that formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive > didn't always work when going back to a 720k drive. > > Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably with HD > disks. I have only been able to format one properly and it had data failure > shortly after. > > Kurt > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Stephen Adolph wrote: > > interestingly, > > Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be > a DD disk, then it works. > > But why? > > the floppy is capable of both formats... > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > > Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? > > - Original Message - > *From:*
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
Sounds similar to the original IBM 5.25" format, single-sided, 512 bytes/sector, 8 sectors/track, 40 tracks, 250Kbps. - Original Message - From: Stephen Adolph To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. when attached to a CoCo, you get 160k. On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 11:02 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: Yeah that does sound strange. And I agree, the drive 'should' switch based on the hole in the disk. Does it format to 720 or 1.44 when the hole is covered? On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote: Kurt, agree with everything you have said. The odd thing is- * using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape, would seem to be BAD ---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current settings for the actual disk media. However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional. so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the drive decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie". On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks. It requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for your new format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase the existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and therefore work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a sensor for the open hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher level of write energy to properly work with the media. When that hole is covered, it will use a lower level which is what the 720k media is looking for. Though I do remember that formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive didn't always work when going back to a 720k drive. Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably with HD disks. I have only been able to format one properly and it had data failure shortly after. Kurt On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Stephen Adolph wrote: interestingly, Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be a DD disk, then it works. But why? the floppy is capable of both formats... On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? - Original Message - From: Stephen Adolph To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. the Coco is using it's standard controller When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. The combination of (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works whereas (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not work this is something I don't understand! On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill wrote: likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? Greg On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph wrote: I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just looking to understand something. I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a standard PC drive and it is working well. Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They don't seem to want to format. I really don't understand where the problem could be. - the drive and the floppy are compatible - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? Does anyone know what's going on? thx Steve
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
The difference in coercivity between DD and HD 3.5" diskettes is actually
relatively small, ~660 vs. ~720 Oersteds, compared to the much larger 290 vs.
660 difference of 5.25" diskettes.
But the thickness of the coating is also different, HD being less than half
that of DD, and different materials are used with the HD having a finer
granularity.
Nevertheless, you can usually get away with using HD diskettes at DD (with the
hole covered if using an HD drive), although it's not quite as reliable as
using the proper media, especially regarding long-term data retention (probably
because the lower DD write current makes them more susceptible to being
erased); even the other way around often works, i.e. a DD diskette with a hole
punched at HD, although this is even less reliable.
Anecdotally it seems that 3.5" HD diskettes in general have become somewhat
unreliable, even used at HD, which may at least partially account for folks
having issues using them at DD.
But I think we're missing the more important issue; the reason for all these
differences is to squeeze more bits per inch on a track; unlike 5.25", 3.5"
diskettes all have 80 tracks and run at the same 300 RPM, so of course this
means that data will normally be written and read at twice the rate in HD mode
(500Kbps) than at the DD rate (250Kbps).
I assume that the CoCo controller only transfers data at 250Kbps whereas with
the HD hole uncovered the drive will expect to see data at 500Kbps (and use HD
write current) and I suspect that's why Steve's having trouble.
3.5" DD diskettes are still around; why not use the right media in the first
place.
m
- Original Message -
From: Kurt McCullum
To: m100@lists.bitchin100.com
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
Yeah that does sound strange. And I agree, the drive 'should' switch based on
the hole in the disk. Does it format to 720 or 1.44 when the hole is covered?
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote:
Kurt, agree with everything you have said.
The odd thing is-
* using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape,
would seem to be BAD
---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current settings
for the actual disk media.
However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional.
so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the drive
decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie".
On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum wrote:
The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks.
It requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD
disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's
because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for your new
format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase the
existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and therefore
work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a sensor for the open
hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher level of write energy to
properly work with the media. When that hole is covered, it will use a lower
level which is what the 720k media is looking for. Though I do remember that
formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive didn't always work when going back to
a 720k drive.
Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably with
HD disks. I have only been able to format one properly and it had data failure
shortly after.
Kurt
On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Stephen Adolph wrote:
interestingly,
Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to
be a DD disk, then it works.
But why?
the floppy is capable of both formats...
On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote:
Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or
similar?
- Original Message -
From: Stephen Adolph
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
the Coco is using it's standard controller
When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for
180kB.
The combination of
(Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works
whereas
(Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does
not work
this is something I don't understand!
On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill
wrote:
likely the floppy controller doesn't suppor
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
when attached to a CoCo, you get 160k. On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 11:02 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: > Yeah that does sound strange. And I agree, the drive 'should' switch based > on the hole in the disk. Does it format to 720 or 1.44 when the hole is > covered? > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote: > > Kurt, agree with everything you have said. > > The odd thing is- > > * using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape, > would seem to be BAD > ---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current settings > for the actual disk media. > > However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional. > > so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the > drive decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie". > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: > > > The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks. It > requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD > disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's > because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for your > new format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase > the existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and > therefore work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a > sensor for the open hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher > level of write energy to properly work with the media. When that hole is > covered, it will use a lower level which is what the 720k media is looking > for. Though I do remember that formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive > didn't always work when going back to a 720k drive. > > Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably with HD > disks. I have only been able to format one properly and it had data failure > shortly after. > > Kurt > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Stephen Adolph wrote: > > interestingly, > > Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be > a DD disk, then it works. > > But why? > > the floppy is capable of both formats... > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > > Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? > > - Original Message - > *From:* Stephen Adolph > *To:* m...@bitchin100.com > *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM > *Subject:* Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. > > the Coco is using it's standard controller > > When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. > > The combination of > (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works > > whereas > (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not work > > this is something I don't understand! > > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill > wrote: > > likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. > most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. > are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? > > Greg > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph > wrote: > > I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just > looking to understand something. > > I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a > standard PC drive and it is working well. > > Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They don't > seem to want to format. > > I really don't understand where the problem could be. > - the drive and the floppy are compatible > - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC > - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? > > Does anyone know what's going on? > > thx > Steve > > > >
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
Yeah that does sound strange. And I agree, the drive 'should' switch based on the hole in the disk. Does it format to 720 or 1.44 when the hole is covered? On Mon, Mar 25, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Stephen Adolph wrote: > Kurt, agree with everything you have said. > > The odd thing is- > > * using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape, would > seem to be BAD > ---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current settings for > the actual disk media. > > However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional. > > so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the drive > decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie". > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: >> __ >> The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks. It >> requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD >> disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's >> because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for your >> new format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase the >> existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and >> therefore work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a sensor >> for the open hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher level of >> write energy to properly work with the media. When that hole is covered, it >> will use a lower level which is what the 720k media is looking for. Though I >> do remember that formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive didn't always work >> when going back to a 720k drive. >> >> Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably with HD >> disks. I have only been able to format one properly and it had data failure >> shortly after. >> >> Kurt >> >> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Stephen Adolph wrote: >>> interestingly, >>> >>> Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be a >>> DD disk, then it works. >>> >>> But why? >>> >>> the floppy is capable of both formats... >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: >>>> __ >>>> Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? >>>>> - Original Message - >>>>> *From:* Stephen Adolph <mailto:twospru...@gmail.com> >>>>> *To:* m...@bitchin100.com >>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. >>>>> >>>>> the Coco is using it's standard controller >>>>> >>>>> When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. >>>>> >>>>> The combination of >>>>> (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works >>>>> >>>>> whereas >>>>> (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not >>>>> work >>>>> >>>>> this is something I don't understand! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. >>>>>> most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. >>>>>> are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? >>>>>> >>>>>> Greg >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just >>>>>>> looking to understand something. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a >>>>>>> standard PC drive and it is working well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They >>>>>>> don't seem to want to format. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I really don't understand where the problem could be. >>>>>>> - the drive and the floppy are compatible >>>>>>> - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC >>>>>>> - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone know what's going on? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> thx >>>>>>> Steve >>
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks. It requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for your new format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase the existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and therefore work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a sensor for the open hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher level of write energy to properly work with the media. When that hole is covered, it will use a lower level which is what the 720k media is looking for. Though I do remember that formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive didn't always work when going back to a 720k drive. Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably with HD disks. I have only been able to format one properly and it had data failure shortly after. Kurt On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Stephen Adolph wrote: > interestingly, > > Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be a > DD disk, then it works. > > But why? > > the floppy is capable of both formats... > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: >> __ >> Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? >>> - Original Message - >>> *From:* Stephen Adolph <mailto:twospru...@gmail.com> >>> *To:* m...@bitchin100.com >>> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. >>> >>> the Coco is using it's standard controller >>> >>> When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. >>> >>> The combination of >>> (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works >>> >>> whereas >>> (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not work >>> >>> this is something I don't understand! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill >>> wrote: >>>> likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. >>>> most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. >>>> are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? >>>> >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph >>>> wrote: >>>>> I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just >>>>> looking to understand something. >>>>> >>>>> I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a >>>>> standard PC drive and it is working well. >>>>> >>>>> Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They don't >>>>> seem to want to format. >>>>> >>>>> I really don't understand where the problem could be. >>>>> - the drive and the floppy are compatible >>>>> - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC >>>>> - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone know what's going on? >>>>> >>>>> thx >>>>> Steve
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
Kurt, agree with everything you have said. The odd thing is- * using an HD disk in an DD/HD drive, and covering the hole with tape, would seem to be BAD ---> because you are telling the drive to use the wrong current settings for the actual disk media. However, this is apparently the way to make my system functional. so, strange. I would have thought it would be the opposite - let the drive decide what current to use, matched to the "cookie". On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM Kurt McCullum wrote: > The magnetic coercivity on HD disks is different than on regular disks. It > requires more energy to lay down the tracks. If you start with a blank HD > disk rather than a pre-formatted disk then you have a better chance. That's > because once the HD tracks are laid down, you need to erase them for your > new format. If your drive doesn't have enough energy to completely erase > the existing track, it wont work. 720k disks have a lower coercivity and > therefore work with either a 720k or 1.44mb drive. A 1.44 drive has a > sensor for the open hole and when it sees that hole, it will use a higher > level of write energy to properly work with the media. When that hole is > covered, it will use a lower level which is what the 720k media is looking > for. Though I do remember that formatting a 720k disk in a 1.44mb drive > didn't always work when going back to a 720k drive. > > Not sure about the Coco drive, but my TPDD2 does not work reliably with HD > disks. I have only been able to format one properly and it had data failure > shortly after. > > Kurt > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019, at 6:32 PM, Stephen Adolph wrote: > > interestingly, > > Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be > a DD disk, then it works. > > But why? > > the floppy is capable of both formats... > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > > Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? > > ----- Original Message - > *From:* Stephen Adolph > *To:* m...@bitchin100.com > *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM > *Subject:* Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. > > the Coco is using it's standard controller > > When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. > > The combination of > (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works > > whereas > (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not work > > this is something I don't understand! > > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill > wrote: > > likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. > most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. > are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? > > Greg > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph > wrote: > > I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just > looking to understand something. > > I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a > standard PC drive and it is working well. > > Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They don't > seem to want to format. > > I really don't understand where the problem could be. > - the drive and the floppy are compatible > - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC > - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? > > Does anyone know what's going on? > > thx > Steve > > >
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
In article , Stephen Adolph wrote: > I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just > looking to understand something. > I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a > standard PC drive and it is working well. > Does anyone know what's going on? The media itself in a 1.44M disk is different, "denser" in some way. It needs a stronger magnetic field for it to be written reliably. Even with a 1.44M drive, writing at Double Density rather than High Density just isn't going to be reliable. It can be done, yes, tape over the HD hole, but the lifetime of the write will be from hours to weeks. And yes, I found this out the hard way... :-( > thx > Steve -- Willard Goosey goo...@sdc.org Socorro, New Mexico, USA I search my heart and find Cimmeria, land of Darkness and the Night. --Robert E. Howard
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
The controller/computer probably can't handle the higher data rate of the HD format (twice the DD rate). - Original Message - From: Stephen Adolph To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2019 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. interestingly, Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be a DD disk, then it works. But why? the floppy is capable of both formats... On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? - Original Message - From: Stephen Adolph To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. the Coco is using it's standard controller When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. The combination of (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works whereas (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not work this is something I don't understand! On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill wrote: likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? Greg On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph wrote: I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just looking to understand something. I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a standard PC drive and it is working well. Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They don't seem to want to format. I really don't understand where the problem could be. - the drive and the floppy are compatible - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? Does anyone know what's going on? thx Steve
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
the controller and fat probably are not.. they were designed before that disk size was available.. On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 6:32 PM Stephen Adolph wrote: > interestingly, > > Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be > a DD disk, then it works. > > But why? > > the floppy is capable of both formats... > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: > >> Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? >> >> - Original Message - >> *From:* Stephen Adolph >> *To:* m...@bitchin100.com >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM >> *Subject:* Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. >> >> the Coco is using it's standard controller >> >> When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. >> >> The combination of >> (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works >> >> whereas >> (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not >> work >> >> this is something I don't understand! >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill >> wrote: >> >>> likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high >>> density.. most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 >>> track.. are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just >>>> looking to understand something. >>>> >>>> I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a >>>> standard PC drive and it is working well. >>>> >>>> Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They >>>> don't seem to want to format. >>>> >>>> I really don't understand where the problem could be. >>>> - the drive and the floppy are compatible >>>> - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC >>>> - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? >>>> >>>> Does anyone know what's going on? >>>> >>>> thx >>>> Steve >>>> >>>
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
interestingly, Yes, if I take an HD disk, and tape over the hole to make it appear to be a DD disk, then it works. But why? the floppy is capable of both formats... On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 7:39 PM Mike Stein wrote: > Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? > > - Original Message - > *From:* Stephen Adolph > *To:* m...@bitchin100.com > *Sent:* Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM > *Subject:* Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. > > the Coco is using it's standard controller > > When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. > > The combination of > (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works > > whereas > (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not work > > this is something I don't understand! > > > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill > wrote: > >> likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. >> most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. >> are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? >> >> Greg >> >> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph >> wrote: >> >>> I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just >>> looking to understand something. >>> >>> I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a >>> standard PC drive and it is working well. >>> >>> Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They >>> don't seem to want to format. >>> >>> I really don't understand where the problem could be. >>> - the drive and the floppy are compatible >>> - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC >>> - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? >>> >>> Does anyone know what's going on? >>> >>> thx >>> Steve >>> >>
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
Have you tried closing the HD sense hole with a piece of tape or similar? - Original Message - From: Stephen Adolph To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2019 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks. the Coco is using it's standard controller When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. The combination of (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works whereas (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not work this is something I don't understand! On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill wrote: likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? Greg On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph wrote: I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just looking to understand something. I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a standard PC drive and it is working well. Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They don't seem to want to format. I really don't understand where the problem could be. - the drive and the floppy are compatible - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? Does anyone know what's going on? thx Steve
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
the Coco is using it's standard controller When issuing the DSKINI 0 command the coco tries to format for 180kB. The combination of (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 720kB dd floppy) works whereas (Coco, std controller, PC 1.44MB drive + a 1.44MBB hd floppy) does not work this is something I don't understand! On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 5:42 PM Gregory McGill wrote: > likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. > most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. > are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? > > Greg > > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph > wrote: > >> I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just >> looking to understand something. >> >> I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a >> standard PC drive and it is working well. >> >> Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They don't >> seem to want to format. >> >> I really don't understand where the problem could be. >> - the drive and the floppy are compatible >> - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC >> - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? >> >> Does anyone know what's going on? >> >> thx >> Steve >> >
Re: [M100] question regarding floppy disks.
likely the floppy controller doesn't support 80 tracks or high density.. most of the controllers of the era are ds/sd 40 track or dsdd 40 track.. are you able to format 720k? ds/dd 80 track? Greg On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:38 PM Stephen Adolph wrote: > I'll start by saying this isn't an M100 or TPDD discussion, but just > looking to understand something. > > I have a Tandy Coco3 with a 3.5 inch floppy drive. The drive is a > standard PC drive and it is working well. > > Seems though that I cannot use 1.44 MB floppies in that drive. They don't > seem to want to format. > > I really don't understand where the problem could be. > - the drive and the floppy are compatible > - the disk is known good and formats at 1.44MB in a PC > - if it can support 135 TPI, why can't it support 35 TPI? > > Does anyone know what's going on? > > thx > Steve >
