Re: Message in the Dark app [was Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy}

[josh gregory]

Oh ok, thanks!

On 8/21/12, Esther  wrote:
> Hi Josh,
>
> This is another iOS app that uses predictive typing for social networking
> • Message In The Dark ($1.99) by Dudi Shani-Gabay
> http://itunes.apple.com/app/id498349077?mt=8
> I think its for Twitter, texting, Facebook, and mail, with no general copy
> to clipboard.  I have no idea if it's accessible.
>
> HTH.  Cheers,
>
> Esther
>
> On Aug 21, 2012, at 10:53, josh gregory wrote:
>
>> Andrea, do you know what platform this is for, mac or iOS? Thanks!
>> Best,
>> Josh
>>
>> On 8/21/12, Andrea Breier  wrote:
>>> I saw a post the other day letting everyone know about another app like
>>> Fleksy. It is called message in the dark. It is listed for one dollar and
>>> ninety nine cents. I know nothing about it, but found it interesting.
>>>
>>> Hugs,
>>> Andrea m. Breier
>
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Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Andrea Breier]

It is supposed to be for mobile apple devices   As always ester says it best 
lol. I believe it was forwarded from another blind list, but how accessible it 
is, no one said  

Hugs, 
Andrea m. Breier
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 21, 2012, at 3:53 PM, josh gregory  wrote:

> Andrea, do you know what platform this is for, mac or iOS? Thanks!
> Best,
> Josh
> 
> On 8/21/12, Andrea Breier  wrote:
>> I saw a post the other day letting everyone know about another app like
>> Fleksy. It is called message in the dark. It is listed for one dollar and
>> ninety nine cents. I know nothing about it, but found it interesting.
>> 
>> Hugs,
>> Andrea m. Breier
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Aug 20, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Esther  wrote:
>> 
>>> Interesting that there's now a TUAW (The Unofficial Apple Weblog) article
>>> today about Fleksy:
>>> http://www.tuaw.com/2012/08/20/fleksy-is-an-alternate-text-input-tool-for-the-visually-impaired/
>>> 
>>> Not a lot of details, but it does show there's broader interest in this
>>> kind of app.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Esther
>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>>> 
>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to
>>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>>> 
>>> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum
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>>> 
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Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

Hey Nick,

Great post and one of the reasons I like this list.  No slamming detected.

Like yourself, I'm reporting bugs to Apple all the time and giving the same 
feedback.  Also like yourself (I think anyway?) I write my own software so 
believe me, oh gods believe me, I know all about bug-tracking etc.  I mention 
this to give a context to my replies.

Ok the Fleksy stuff.  I've been chatting with the devs quite a bit so I won't 
comment too much more on that save to say that, as you suggest, their stuff can 
be incorporated into other apps in exactly the manner you describe.

Now to the more substantive point.  We're in 100% agreement on the issue of 
extensions.  I'm not in the least thinking of jaws-style scripting; it's evil.  
I'll try (and given how tired I am with a young baby in the house probably 
fail) to convey what I mean.

Jaws scripting essentially tries to fix apps that are broken.  It adds 
functionality to a screenreader which makes apps accessible.  (Relax gordon, 
I'm only mentioning it for context I'm not going to discuss it).  When I talk 
of an "extension" I mean something akin to Fleksy that enhances the 
functionality of what's provided.  It's an optional add-on if you will that 
doesn't detract from the original screenreader.   So take the work I'm doing on 
mathematical accessibility.  I have two choices; 1. create a self voicing app 
or 2. try to plug into a screenreader (voiceover in this case).  That is a very 
specific contextual use that does not impinge on the other uses of the 
screenreader rather it enhances the functionality (sorry I can't say how) in an 
area not covered.

Sorry if I gave the impression that I wanted to go down the old road used on 
other Os's and AT that couldn't be further from what I'm suggesting.  I guess 
I'm talking about a flexible dynamic architecture which permits personalisation 
and adaptivity to both users and contexts of use.  This, as you say in your 
mail, can be done (with effort, digging and knowledge of hidden APIS) on 
desktop but IOS is closed and I dont' like that as it makes my life as a 
researcher and developer miserable and awkward, and this makes me grumpy! 
*smile*

All the best, and feel free to contact me offlist if you want more specifics as 
I probably won't be looking at the folder containing my mac-access mails for a 
bit so may not contribute more to this thread.

Dónal
On 21 Aug 2012, at 18:22, Nicolai Svendsen  wrote:

> Hi Dónal
> 
> Just to throw in my two cents also.
> 
> Fleksy is a nice application because it lets you type incredibly fast, and 
> this even applies to when VoiceOver is off for sighted users. Sighted users 
> don't have to focus as much on what they're typing if they already know how 
> to touch-type, and it makes their typing speed infinitely better. Also, 
> because APIs exist which allow certain areas of the screen to accept regular 
> gestures, Fleksy being a case where this is used, this could technically be 
> incorporated into iOS as a global keyboard method. However, incorporating 
> this globally isn't as easy as it would be with a simple keyboard that does 
> not exist in iOS, such as the Emoji keyboard in iOS 4 because Developers need 
> to have certain APIs sandboxed or create an SDK, which Fleksy has done. In 
> this case, Apple would need to make it happen if you wanted something like 
> this to be globally available. Installing an application which lets you 
> select its input method as a keyboard in any text field is one thing, but 
> this is a completely different approach.
> 
> As for OS X, lots of bugs still exist. However, speaking from the perspective 
> of someone who submits them and actively receives feedback on them when 
> something changes, it sometimes takes months for Apple to review the bugs you 
> send in. When they do review them and get back to you in detail, they often 
> tell you to reproduce it again in hope of the issue being fixed, or say that 
> they cannot reproduce it. It gets a lot more complicated when they can't 
> reproduce it, because a lot of bugs are sometimes machine-specific, or depend 
> on your configuration. If they depend on your configuration, it also depends 
> on how VoiceOVer is configured, how you installed OS X as well as how you 
> modified the application exhibiting the behaviour. Logs don't always tell you 
> everything. Secondly, fixing one bug sometimes breaks something else, which 
> is very common. I will say that some of these bugs have been around for a 
> very long time, and some features purely don't exist when they should be 
> available. Obviously, this just means Apple's engineers need to focus a bit 
> more on the smaller bugs which eventually add up and become very annoying. 
> Every time I've talked to their engineers, the critical  bugs seem to be  the 
> most important ones. This is understandable, but the issue seems to be that 
> when a lot of these bugs have been ironed out, the smaller bugs are left to 
> grow. Som

Message in the Dark app [was Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy}

[Esther]

Hi Josh,

This is another iOS app that uses predictive typing for social networking
• Message In The Dark ($1.99) by Dudi Shani-Gabay
http://itunes.apple.com/app/id498349077?mt=8
I think its for Twitter, texting, Facebook, and mail, with no general copy to 
clipboard.  I have no idea if it's accessible.

HTH.  Cheers,

Esther

On Aug 21, 2012, at 10:53, josh gregory wrote:

> Andrea, do you know what platform this is for, mac or iOS? Thanks!
> Best,
> Josh
> 
> On 8/21/12, Andrea Breier  wrote:
>> I saw a post the other day letting everyone know about another app like
>> Fleksy. It is called message in the dark. It is listed for one dollar and
>> ninety nine cents. I know nothing about it, but found it interesting.
>> 
>> Hugs,
>> Andrea m. Breier

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Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[josh gregory]

Andrea, do you know what platform this is for, mac or iOS? Thanks!
Best,
Josh

On 8/21/12, Andrea Breier  wrote:
> I saw a post the other day letting everyone know about another app like
> Fleksy. It is called message in the dark. It is listed for one dollar and
> ninety nine cents. I know nothing about it, but found it interesting.
>
> Hugs,
> Andrea m. Breier
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 20, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Esther  wrote:
>
>> Interesting that there's now a TUAW (The Unofficial Apple Weblog) article
>> today about Fleksy:
>> http://www.tuaw.com/2012/08/20/fleksy-is-an-alternate-text-input-tool-for-the-visually-impaired/
>>
>> Not a lot of details, but it does show there's broader interest in this
>> kind of app.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Esther
>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>>
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to
>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>>
>> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum
>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive:
>> 
>> or at the public Mail Archive:
>> .
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>> 
>>
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>> and worm-free!
>>
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>> the list website at:
>> 
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
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>
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Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[josh gregory]

Right, I get that a lot hasn't been done. But, features are still
beeing added (even if they are few).

On 8/21/12, Dónal Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> Hi Esther,
>
> Absolutely everything you say is spot on and I guess I didn't make my
> meaning clear.  I wasn't having a pop at Fleksy; far from it.  Rather I was
> bemoaning the stagnation and lack of enhancements in Apple's own work over
> the past number of years.  In a properly architected system fleksy could be
> incorporated as an add-on.
>
> I also think you're right in terms of the algorithm.  It seems to draw
> vectors from point-to-point thus giving the word selection.  Nothing
> remotely rocket-science in it, but very nice all the same.  Still not buying
> it though! *smile*
> On 21 Aug 2012, at 02:04, Esther  wrote:
>
>> Hi Dónal and Others,
>>
>> First off, there are a number of predictive typing apps available for
>> people who want to take advantage of this on the virtual keyboard of iOS
>> devices.  There are also applications like TextExpander, which make input
>> of text on computers and iOS devices more efficient by custom snippet
>> definitions, whether using the virtual keyboard or a hardware keyboard,
>> and go way beyond simple text substitution.  These are not blindness
>> specific.
>>
>> I think that the predictive algorithm that Fleksy uses is more
>> sophisticated than the explanation you gave Travis, but I don't know this
>> for a fact.  I'd guess that it uses relative position changes -- so if you
>> weren't certain of the absolute position of letters on the screen, but
>> still knew that "e" and "r" are in the same row, but that "n" is way below
>> and to the right, you'd still get a match.  So, if you placed the phone on
>> a flat table and tried to type -- not that I ever use the iPhone this way
>> -- and if you got the approximate spatial relationships between keys
>> correct, but not the absolute position of the bottom row of keys, you
>> would still get good matches to the word predictions.
>>
>> There are many cases where even people with good spatial awareness might
>> have difficulty typing on the virtual keyboard.  For example, one of the
>> arguments for the TypeInBraille app was that there were situations like
>> trying to enter text on a moving bus where it can be difficult to type
>> letters with precision.   Also, depending on how steady your touch is
>> (e.g., tremors due to various conditions, especially ones that might be
>> age-related, such as Parkinson's disease), you might benefit from such an
>> application.
>>
>> Fleksy is an app where increased use is likely to provide increased gains
>> in the efficiency advantage.  I find that I still spend a bit too much
>> energy in the swipes to enter words.  Also, the basic dictionary may not
>> be matched to what you need to write, so the ability to import/export
>> words that was added is a help.  My first experience trying to speed type
>> "famous documents and quotations" from memory hit an immediate vocabulary
>> related snag when the fairly common words were just not common enough to
>> be recognized by the algorithm until I entered them exactly and added them
>> to the dictionary.
>>
>> Fleksy could take the route that TextExpander did, and make its API freely
>> available to all developers to include.  TextExpander gained enormous
>> popularity that way, and even though we have alternative ways to input
>> text now, and dictation works even for languages where typing accented
>> characters used to be extra work, I still find that any really good text
>> editing app will have support for TextExpander (and Dropbox) built in.
>>
>> HTH.  Just my thoughts. YMMV.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Esther
>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>>
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to
>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>>
>> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum
>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive:
>> 
>> or at the public Mail Archive:
>> .
>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
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>>
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>> and worm-free!
>>
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>
> Dónal Fitzpatrick
> dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie
>
>
>
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>
> To reply to this post, please address your message to
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> Subscribe to the list's 

Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Andrea Breier]

I saw a post the other day letting everyone know about another app like Fleksy. 
It is called message in the dark. It is listed for one dollar and ninety nine 
cents. I know nothing about it, but found it interesting. 

Hugs, 
Andrea m. Breier
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Esther  wrote:

> Interesting that there's now a TUAW (The Unofficial Apple Weblog) article 
> today about Fleksy:
> http://www.tuaw.com/2012/08/20/fleksy-is-an-alternate-text-input-tool-for-the-visually-impaired/
> 
> Not a lot of details, but it does show there's broader interest in this kind 
> of app.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Esther
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> 
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> .
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> 
> 
> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
> worm-free!
> 
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> the list website at:
> 
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Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Nicolai Svendsen]

Hi Dónal

Just to throw in my two cents also.

Fleksy is a nice application because it lets you type incredibly fast, and this 
even applies to when VoiceOver is off for sighted users. Sighted users don't 
have to focus as much on what they're typing if they already know how to 
touch-type, and it makes their typing speed infinitely better. Also, because 
APIs exist which allow certain areas of the screen to accept regular gestures, 
Fleksy being a case where this is used, this could technically be incorporated 
into iOS as a global keyboard method. However, incorporating this globally 
isn't as easy as it would be with a simple keyboard that does not exist in iOS, 
such as the Emoji keyboard in iOS 4 because Developers need to have certain 
APIs sandboxed or create an SDK, which Fleksy has done. In this case, Apple 
would need to make it happen if you wanted something like this to be globally 
available. Installing an application which lets you select its input method as 
a keyboard in any text field is one thing, but this is a completely different 
approach.

As for OS X, lots of bugs still exist. However, speaking from the perspective 
of someone who submits them and actively receives feedback on them when 
something changes, it sometimes takes months for Apple to review the bugs you 
send in. When they do review them and get back to you in detail, they often 
tell you to reproduce it again in hope of the issue being fixed, or say that 
they cannot reproduce it. It gets a lot more complicated when they can't 
reproduce it, because a lot of bugs are sometimes machine-specific, or depend 
on your configuration. If they depend on your configuration, it also depends on 
how VoiceOVer is configured, how you installed OS X as well as how you modified 
the application exhibiting the behaviour. Logs don't always tell you 
everything. Secondly, fixing one bug sometimes breaks something else, which is 
very common. I will say that some of these bugs have been around for a very 
long time, and some features purely don't exist when they should be available. 
Obviously, this just means Apple's engineers need to focus a bit more on the 
smaller bugs which eventually add up and become very annoying. Every time I've 
talked to their engineers, the critical  bugs seem to be  the most important 
ones. This is understandable, but the issue seems to be that when a lot of 
these bugs have been ironed out, the smaller bugs are left to grow. Some of 
them are just difficult to deal with, such as the issue with page loading which 
is apparently a bug that is very hard to fix. That bug is just one example 
though, because some of those bugs are not so easy to fix if you understand the 
technical aspects. I mention that because some people find a bug and figure 
it'll be very easy to fix when it seems like a small glitch, but what a good 
part of users don't realise is that a lot of these issues are interconnected. 
Fix one thing, and you might break another. Again, the page loading is a good 
example here.

In the past, I have also mentioned issues that I have had which have not 
plagued everyone else on the list who responded to my problem. This is another 
case in point.

Just to clarify. I'm not defending Apple, because I think, too, that some of 
these bugs at least need to be put down and fixed even though Apple already 
knows about them. That having been said, your note about "extensions" worries 
me. I see two sides to this, however, and that is firstly that it can be an 
advantage, at least in the case of OS X. OS X is  a lot more open than iOS 
because it doesn't limit you in the case of modifications if you know how, and 
this also includes VoiceOVer. iOS is different because everything relies on 
Sandboxing unless you jailbreak. My concern about extensions, though, is that 
people might become dependent on them. Plugging in to the screen reader makes 
me think of JAWS on the Windows side where everything is scripted and you can 
make changes to an application through scripts to make it easier to use. 
Depending on what you'd use extensions for, I wouldn't consider them a benefit 
personally. You can already use AppleScript to make some tasks easier, but 
they're not direct extensions or modifications to VoiceOVer. You can extend 
VoiceOVer's features if you know how to do it, but it's painstaking and 
requires a lot of effort to get to what you want. For instance, you can get 
tables to read properly in any application which uses them by plugging in to 
the right frameworks, but by making use of VoiceOVer-specific technology which 
Apple does not leak on the Developer website.

I'm speaking  as someone who's had intimate experience with VoiceOVer, and keep 
in mind I'm not at all slamming your post. I actually agree, but it's worth 
getting both sides.

Regards,
Nicolai
On Aug 21, 2012, at 12:24 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick  
wrote:

> Travis,
> 
> I've played with the free app and personally have no intention of paying the

Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

Hi Esther,

Absolutely everything you say is spot on and I guess I didn't make my meaning 
clear.  I wasn't having a pop at Fleksy; far from it.  Rather I was bemoaning 
the stagnation and lack of enhancements in Apple's own work over the past 
number of years.  In a properly architected system fleksy could be incorporated 
as an add-on.

I also think you're right in terms of the algorithm.  It seems to draw vectors 
from point-to-point thus giving the word selection.  Nothing remotely 
rocket-science in it, but very nice all the same.  Still not buying it though! 
*smile*
On 21 Aug 2012, at 02:04, Esther  wrote:

> Hi Dónal and Others,
> 
> First off, there are a number of predictive typing apps available for people 
> who want to take advantage of this on the virtual keyboard of iOS devices.  
> There are also applications like TextExpander, which make input of text on 
> computers and iOS devices more efficient by custom snippet definitions, 
> whether using the virtual keyboard or a hardware keyboard, and go way beyond 
> simple text substitution.  These are not blindness specific.
> 
> I think that the predictive algorithm that Fleksy uses is more sophisticated 
> than the explanation you gave Travis, but I don't know this for a fact.  I'd 
> guess that it uses relative position changes -- so if you weren't certain of 
> the absolute position of letters on the screen, but still knew that "e" and 
> "r" are in the same row, but that "n" is way below and to the right, you'd 
> still get a match.  So, if you placed the phone on a flat table and tried to 
> type -- not that I ever use the iPhone this way -- and if you got the 
> approximate spatial relationships between keys correct, but not the absolute 
> position of the bottom row of keys, you would still get good matches to the 
> word predictions.
> 
> There are many cases where even people with good spatial awareness might have 
> difficulty typing on the virtual keyboard.  For example, one of the arguments 
> for the TypeInBraille app was that there were situations like trying to enter 
> text on a moving bus where it can be difficult to type letters with 
> precision.   Also, depending on how steady your touch is (e.g., tremors due 
> to various conditions, especially ones that might be age-related, such as 
> Parkinson's disease), you might benefit from such an application.
> 
> Fleksy is an app where increased use is likely to provide increased gains in 
> the efficiency advantage.  I find that I still spend a bit too much energy in 
> the swipes to enter words.  Also, the basic dictionary may not be matched to 
> what you need to write, so the ability to import/export words that was added 
> is a help.  My first experience trying to speed type "famous documents and 
> quotations" from memory hit an immediate vocabulary related snag when the 
> fairly common words were just not common enough to be recognized by the 
> algorithm until I entered them exactly and added them to the dictionary.
> 
> Fleksy could take the route that TextExpander did, and make its API freely 
> available to all developers to include.  TextExpander gained enormous 
> popularity that way, and even though we have alternative ways to input text 
> now, and dictation works even for languages where typing accented characters 
> used to be extra work, I still find that any really good text editing app 
> will have support for TextExpander (and Dropbox) built in.
> 
> HTH.  Just my thoughts. YMMV.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Esther  
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
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> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
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Dónal Fitzpatrick
dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie



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Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Esther]

Interesting that there's now a TUAW (The Unofficial Apple Weblog) article today 
about Fleksy:
http://www.tuaw.com/2012/08/20/fleksy-is-an-alternate-text-input-tool-for-the-visually-impaired/

Not a lot of details, but it does show there's broader interest in this kind of 
app.

Cheers,

Esther
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Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Esther]

Hi Dónal and Others,

First off, there are a number of predictive typing apps available for people 
who want to take advantage of this on the virtual keyboard of iOS devices.  
There are also applications like TextExpander, which make input of text on 
computers and iOS devices more efficient by custom snippet definitions, whether 
using the virtual keyboard or a hardware keyboard, and go way beyond simple 
text substitution.  These are not blindness specific.

I think that the predictive algorithm that Fleksy uses is more sophisticated 
than the explanation you gave Travis, but I don't know this for a fact.  I'd 
guess that it uses relative position changes -- so if you weren't certain of 
the absolute position of letters on the screen, but still knew that "e" and "r" 
are in the same row, but that "n" is way below and to the right, you'd still 
get a match.  So, if you placed the phone on a flat table and tried to type -- 
not that I ever use the iPhone this way -- and if you got the approximate 
spatial relationships between keys correct, but not the absolute position of 
the bottom row of keys, you would still get good matches to the word 
predictions.

There are many cases where even people with good spatial awareness might have 
difficulty typing on the virtual keyboard.  For example, one of the arguments 
for the TypeInBraille app was that there were situations like trying to enter 
text on a moving bus where it can be difficult to type letters with precision.  
 Also, depending on how steady your touch is (e.g., tremors due to various 
conditions, especially ones that might be age-related, such as Parkinson's 
disease), you might benefit from such an application.

Fleksy is an app where increased use is likely to provide increased gains in 
the efficiency advantage.  I find that I still spend a bit too much energy in 
the swipes to enter words.  Also, the basic dictionary may not be matched to 
what you need to write, so the ability to import/export words that was added is 
a help.  My first experience trying to speed type "famous documents and 
quotations" from memory hit an immediate vocabulary related snag when the 
fairly common words were just not common enough to be recognized by the 
algorithm until I entered them exactly and added them to the dictionary.

Fleksy could take the route that TextExpander did, and make its API freely 
available to all developers to include.  TextExpander gained enormous 
popularity that way, and even though we have alternative ways to input text 
now, and dictation works even for languages where typing accented characters 
used to be extra work, I still find that any really good text editing app will 
have support for TextExpander (and Dropbox) built in.

HTH.  Just my thoughts. YMMV.

Cheers,

Esther  
<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

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You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
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Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[josh gregory]

Aggreed. That's the pretense in a lot of technology and what we do today.

On 8/20/12, Dónal Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> no question Josh.  But my fear is that Apple thinks it has done all it needs
> to for those of us who are blind and need to access these devices.  They
> have responded to the need to provide accessibility by developing voiceover.
>  Yep it's free, generally usable and ticks oh I'd say, 85% of the boxes.  I
> just think they still can refine it.  Fleksy is just such a refinement.
>
> Let's just say I've heard enough skuttlebut which would indicate that blind
> users aren't a priority, and that other disabilities are.  I believe the job
> isn't finished.
>
> Dónal
> On 20 Aug 2012, at 23:47, josh gregory  wrote:
>
>> Ok I get what you're saying, but, it's better than Windows where you
>> have to use Narrator to get a screen reader from the Internet. Now i'm
>> not bashing windows, it's still good for what Vo can't do. But I just
>> think vo is more universally accessible.
>>
>> On 8/20/12, Dónal Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>>> Travis,
>>>
>>> I've played with the free app and personally have no intention of paying
>>> the
>>> "blind tax" that seems to be on these apps.  However I'll also add that
>>> I've
>>> begun to chat with the developers (*smile* as a result of a mildly
>>> offensive
>>> and rather negative tweet about the app) and they are very nice guys who
>>> are
>>> extremely committed to what they are doing.
>>>
>>> Wearing my usability hat for a second, I think what they're trying to do
>>> makes sense.  I don't know about you, but I don't hit letters accurately
>>> 100% of the time.  So in essence all they are doing is building in error
>>> correction for inaccurate keypresses.  That's an over simplification but
>>> in
>>> essence that's how I see it.  Now from the standpoint of the research,
>>> taken
>>> heuristically as it were, that makes sense to me.  Allowing the device
>>> to
>>> "assist" or "second guess" the user for whom traditional input doesn't
>>> quite
>>> work is a good idea.
>>>
>>> Where it falls down in my view is the fact that this input method isn't
>>> available globally.  So one cannot, as it were, select the "fleksy
>>> keyboard"
>>> as opposed to apple's own variants.  As an aside, they tell me that
>>> developers can in fact incorporate their work into their apps and they
>>> have
>>> had interest in this.
>>>
>>> What jumps out at me is that a software developer has seen a niche/gap
>>> in
>>> the market and filled it.  The reason, and again this is pure opinion on
>>> my
>>> part, is that voiceover (whether on IOS or the desktop platforms) has
>>> stagnated.  There, I've said it and now the apple fanboys/girls will no
>>> doubt create a strong rope made of iPhone cables with which to hang me
>>> from
>>> the nearest cellphone mast.  However, let's think about it.  We all
>>> (well
>>> certainly I and a number of my friends did) were delighted with the
>>> emergence of Alex, trackpad use, access to touchscreens etc.  However
>>> what's
>>> happened since?  We still have the same bugs, the gesture/keyboard
>>> interactions haven't been refined and software such as Pages, Numbers,
>>> Keynote and Preview still are not, in my opinion, usable to the extent
>>> they
>>> should be.
>>>
>>> So returning to Fleksy and what I think it shows.  I think it shows that
>>> Apple don't have the monopoly on ideas.  I think it shows the problems
>>> inherent in the design of voiceover on both mobile and desktop platforms
>>> in
>>> that developers cannot "plug in" to the screenreader and create
>>> extensions.
>>> That is bad, ladies and gentlemen because it means as long as we stick
>>> on
>>> Apple platforms, we've got to put up with what they give us and that,
>>> for
>>> the past few years hasn't been much.  I now expect the usual blind
>>> response
>>> of "oh but we should all be grateful to apple because. (blah blah)" and
>>> all
>>> of that is perfect true.  But how long do we have to remain grateful
>>> for?
>>> We're paying our money just like anyone else so should expect
>>> improvements
>>> in the user experience.  There are seven, yes only seven, new voiceover
>>> features in mountain lion, and many bugs that have been there for years
>>> are
>>> still there.  So yes I am delighted apple introduced a free
>>> screenreader,
>>> but they're happy too as they have got money from me (and other blind
>>> users)
>>> as a consequence that they otherwise wouldn't have received.
>>>
>>> I could wax lyrical on some theoretical analysis I've done on all this
>>> but
>>> most people would accuse me of being boring so I won't.
>>>
>>> that's my few cents worth on Fleksy, apple and the world according to
>>> Garp.
>>>
>>> Dónal
>>> On 20 Aug 2012, at 22:09, Travis Siegel  wrote:
>>>
 Ahh, Donald, an excellent summary of the app, and exactly what I
 needed.
 I couldn't figure out from previous emails what the point was, so
 thanks
 for that.
 It does sound lik

Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

no question Josh.  But my fear is that Apple thinks it has done all it needs to 
for those of us who are blind and need to access these devices.  They have 
responded to the need to provide accessibility by developing voiceover.  Yep 
it's free, generally usable and ticks oh I'd say, 85% of the boxes.  I just 
think they still can refine it.  Fleksy is just such a refinement.

Let's just say I've heard enough skuttlebut which would indicate that blind 
users aren't a priority, and that other disabilities are.  I believe the job 
isn't finished.

Dónal
On 20 Aug 2012, at 23:47, josh gregory  wrote:

> Ok I get what you're saying, but, it's better than Windows where you
> have to use Narrator to get a screen reader from the Internet. Now i'm
> not bashing windows, it's still good for what Vo can't do. But I just
> think vo is more universally accessible.
> 
> On 8/20/12, Dónal Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>> Travis,
>> 
>> I've played with the free app and personally have no intention of paying the
>> "blind tax" that seems to be on these apps.  However I'll also add that I've
>> begun to chat with the developers (*smile* as a result of a mildly offensive
>> and rather negative tweet about the app) and they are very nice guys who are
>> extremely committed to what they are doing.
>> 
>> Wearing my usability hat for a second, I think what they're trying to do
>> makes sense.  I don't know about you, but I don't hit letters accurately
>> 100% of the time.  So in essence all they are doing is building in error
>> correction for inaccurate keypresses.  That's an over simplification but in
>> essence that's how I see it.  Now from the standpoint of the research, taken
>> heuristically as it were, that makes sense to me.  Allowing the device to
>> "assist" or "second guess" the user for whom traditional input doesn't quite
>> work is a good idea.
>> 
>> Where it falls down in my view is the fact that this input method isn't
>> available globally.  So one cannot, as it were, select the "fleksy keyboard"
>> as opposed to apple's own variants.  As an aside, they tell me that
>> developers can in fact incorporate their work into their apps and they have
>> had interest in this.
>> 
>> What jumps out at me is that a software developer has seen a niche/gap in
>> the market and filled it.  The reason, and again this is pure opinion on my
>> part, is that voiceover (whether on IOS or the desktop platforms) has
>> stagnated.  There, I've said it and now the apple fanboys/girls will no
>> doubt create a strong rope made of iPhone cables with which to hang me from
>> the nearest cellphone mast.  However, let's think about it.  We all (well
>> certainly I and a number of my friends did) were delighted with the
>> emergence of Alex, trackpad use, access to touchscreens etc.  However what's
>> happened since?  We still have the same bugs, the gesture/keyboard
>> interactions haven't been refined and software such as Pages, Numbers,
>> Keynote and Preview still are not, in my opinion, usable to the extent they
>> should be.
>> 
>> So returning to Fleksy and what I think it shows.  I think it shows that
>> Apple don't have the monopoly on ideas.  I think it shows the problems
>> inherent in the design of voiceover on both mobile and desktop platforms in
>> that developers cannot "plug in" to the screenreader and create extensions.
>> That is bad, ladies and gentlemen because it means as long as we stick on
>> Apple platforms, we've got to put up with what they give us and that, for
>> the past few years hasn't been much.  I now expect the usual blind response
>> of "oh but we should all be grateful to apple because. (blah blah)" and all
>> of that is perfect true.  But how long do we have to remain grateful for?
>> We're paying our money just like anyone else so should expect improvements
>> in the user experience.  There are seven, yes only seven, new voiceover
>> features in mountain lion, and many bugs that have been there for years are
>> still there.  So yes I am delighted apple introduced a free screenreader,
>> but they're happy too as they have got money from me (and other blind users)
>> as a consequence that they otherwise wouldn't have received.
>> 
>> I could wax lyrical on some theoretical analysis I've done on all this but
>> most people would accuse me of being boring so I won't.
>> 
>> that's my few cents worth on Fleksy, apple and the world according to Garp.
>> 
>> Dónal
>> On 20 Aug 2012, at 22:09, Travis Siegel  wrote:
>> 
>>> Ahh, Donald, an excellent summary of the app, and exactly what I needed.
>>> I couldn't figure out from previous emails what the point was, so thanks
>>> for that.
>>> It does sound like it could be a useful app.  However, for now, I'll stick
>>> with apple's method, I like it, and it works for me, and I'm relatively
>>> quick, so I don't see a need to change everything now. :)
>>> Yes, I'm a bit stuck in my ways. :)
>>> Thanks for the explanation, it makes a whole lot of sense now.
>>> 
>>> <---

Re: (what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[josh gregory]

Ok I get what you're saying, but, it's better than Windows where you
have to use Narrator to get a screen reader from the Internet. Now i'm
not bashing windows, it's still good for what Vo can't do. But I just
think vo is more universally accessible.

On 8/20/12, Dónal Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> Travis,
>
> I've played with the free app and personally have no intention of paying the
> "blind tax" that seems to be on these apps.  However I'll also add that I've
> begun to chat with the developers (*smile* as a result of a mildly offensive
> and rather negative tweet about the app) and they are very nice guys who are
> extremely committed to what they are doing.
>
> Wearing my usability hat for a second, I think what they're trying to do
> makes sense.  I don't know about you, but I don't hit letters accurately
> 100% of the time.  So in essence all they are doing is building in error
> correction for inaccurate keypresses.  That's an over simplification but in
> essence that's how I see it.  Now from the standpoint of the research, taken
> heuristically as it were, that makes sense to me.  Allowing the device to
> "assist" or "second guess" the user for whom traditional input doesn't quite
> work is a good idea.
>
> Where it falls down in my view is the fact that this input method isn't
> available globally.  So one cannot, as it were, select the "fleksy keyboard"
> as opposed to apple's own variants.  As an aside, they tell me that
> developers can in fact incorporate their work into their apps and they have
> had interest in this.
>
> What jumps out at me is that a software developer has seen a niche/gap in
> the market and filled it.  The reason, and again this is pure opinion on my
> part, is that voiceover (whether on IOS or the desktop platforms) has
> stagnated.  There, I've said it and now the apple fanboys/girls will no
> doubt create a strong rope made of iPhone cables with which to hang me from
> the nearest cellphone mast.  However, let's think about it.  We all (well
> certainly I and a number of my friends did) were delighted with the
> emergence of Alex, trackpad use, access to touchscreens etc.  However what's
> happened since?  We still have the same bugs, the gesture/keyboard
> interactions haven't been refined and software such as Pages, Numbers,
> Keynote and Preview still are not, in my opinion, usable to the extent they
> should be.
>
> So returning to Fleksy and what I think it shows.  I think it shows that
> Apple don't have the monopoly on ideas.  I think it shows the problems
> inherent in the design of voiceover on both mobile and desktop platforms in
> that developers cannot "plug in" to the screenreader and create extensions.
> That is bad, ladies and gentlemen because it means as long as we stick on
> Apple platforms, we've got to put up with what they give us and that, for
> the past few years hasn't been much.  I now expect the usual blind response
> of "oh but we should all be grateful to apple because. (blah blah)" and all
> of that is perfect true.  But how long do we have to remain grateful for?
> We're paying our money just like anyone else so should expect improvements
> in the user experience.  There are seven, yes only seven, new voiceover
> features in mountain lion, and many bugs that have been there for years are
> still there.  So yes I am delighted apple introduced a free screenreader,
> but they're happy too as they have got money from me (and other blind users)
> as a consequence that they otherwise wouldn't have received.
>
> I could wax lyrical on some theoretical analysis I've done on all this but
> most people would accuse me of being boring so I won't.
>
> that's my few cents worth on Fleksy, apple and the world according to Garp.
>
> Dónal
> On 20 Aug 2012, at 22:09, Travis Siegel  wrote:
>
>> Ahh, Donald, an excellent summary of the app, and exactly what I needed.
>> I couldn't figure out from previous emails what the point was, so thanks
>> for that.
>> It does sound like it could be a useful app.  However, for now, I'll stick
>> with apple's method, I like it, and it works for me, and I'm relatively
>> quick, so I don't see a need to change everything now. :)
>> Yes, I'm a bit stuck in my ways. :)
>> Thanks for the explanation, it makes a whole lot of sense now.
>>
>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>>
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to
>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>>
>> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum
>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive:
>> 
>> or at the public Mail Archive:
>> .
>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
>> 
>>
>> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus
>> and worm-free!
>>
>> Please remember to update your membership options periodically 

(what Fleksy means for us) was Re: Fleksy

[Dónal Fitzpatrick]

Travis,

I've played with the free app and personally have no intention of paying the 
"blind tax" that seems to be on these apps.  However I'll also add that I've 
begun to chat with the developers (*smile* as a result of a mildly offensive 
and rather negative tweet about the app) and they are very nice guys who are 
extremely committed to what they are doing.

Wearing my usability hat for a second, I think what they're trying to do makes 
sense.  I don't know about you, but I don't hit letters accurately 100% of the 
time.  So in essence all they are doing is building in error correction for 
inaccurate keypresses.  That's an over simplification but in essence that's how 
I see it.  Now from the standpoint of the research, taken heuristically as it 
were, that makes sense to me.  Allowing the device to "assist" or "second 
guess" the user for whom traditional input doesn't quite work is a good idea.

Where it falls down in my view is the fact that this input method isn't 
available globally.  So one cannot, as it were, select the "fleksy keyboard" as 
opposed to apple's own variants.  As an aside, they tell me that developers can 
in fact incorporate their work into their apps and they have had interest in 
this.

What jumps out at me is that a software developer has seen a niche/gap in the 
market and filled it.  The reason, and again this is pure opinion on my part, 
is that voiceover (whether on IOS or the desktop platforms) has stagnated.  
There, I've said it and now the apple fanboys/girls will no doubt create a 
strong rope made of iPhone cables with which to hang me from the nearest 
cellphone mast.  However, let's think about it.  We all (well certainly I and a 
number of my friends did) were delighted with the emergence of Alex, trackpad 
use, access to touchscreens etc.  However what's happened since?  We still have 
the same bugs, the gesture/keyboard interactions haven't been refined and 
software such as Pages, Numbers, Keynote and Preview still are not, in my 
opinion, usable to the extent they should be.

So returning to Fleksy and what I think it shows.  I think it shows that Apple 
don't have the monopoly on ideas.  I think it shows the problems inherent in 
the design of voiceover on both mobile and desktop platforms in that developers 
cannot "plug in" to the screenreader and create extensions.  That is bad, 
ladies and gentlemen because it means as long as we stick on Apple platforms, 
we've got to put up with what they give us and that, for the past few years 
hasn't been much.  I now expect the usual blind response of "oh but we should 
all be grateful to apple because. (blah blah)" and all of that is perfect true. 
 But how long do we have to remain grateful for?  We're paying our money just 
like anyone else so should expect improvements in the user experience.  There 
are seven, yes only seven, new voiceover features in mountain lion, and many 
bugs that have been there for years are still there.  So yes I am delighted 
apple introduced a free screenreader, but they're happy too as they have got 
money from me (and other blind users) as a consequence that they otherwise 
wouldn't have received.

I could wax lyrical on some theoretical analysis I've done on all this but most 
people would accuse me of being boring so I won't.

that's my few cents worth on Fleksy, apple and the world according to Garp.

Dónal
On 20 Aug 2012, at 22:09, Travis Siegel  wrote:

> Ahh, Donald, an excellent summary of the app, and exactly what I needed.
> I couldn't figure out from previous emails what the point was, so thanks for 
> that.
> It does sound like it could be a useful app.  However, for now, I'll stick 
> with apple's method, I like it, and it works for me, and I'm relatively 
> quick, so I don't see a need to change everything now. :)
> Yes, I'm a bit stuck in my ways. :)
> Thanks for the explanation, it makes a whole lot of sense now.
> 
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> 
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> .
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> 
> 
> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
> worm-free!
> 
> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting 
> the list website at:
> 

Dónal Fitzpatrick
dfitz...@computing.dcu.ie



<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own