Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Paul Klapperich 

On 2/15/07, James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Thursday 15 February 2007 11:38:29 Marius Vollmer wrote:
> With a version locked meta package, we can make sure that the user
> gets the right combinations of packages.

umm Maybe I'm missing something but since this is debian based .deb's
handle
this quite well.  XXX.deb can require YYY.deb version 2.1 or greater.  You
are going to not only go nuts building meta packages but also go nuts
trying
to re-invent in a way a wheel you already have.  I can understand the meta
for going from 2.0 to 2.2 for example (all done one fell swoop) but why
update everthing just to include a couple of K of changes.



I'm not sure you understand how metapackages work in debian--or maybe I
don't. Meta-packages are essentially virtual packages. They don't do
anything on their own, but have as dependencies lots and lots of other
packages. This means that instead of installing 300 some packages for the
Maemo system, you have 1 meta package that has 300 some dependencies.
Specific, version strict dependencies--although as you mention, it could be
done with "version or later" dependencies).

There won't be lots of meta packages, there will be one. When a system
package needs to be updated, a new version of the meta package will go on
the repository with a few of it's dependencies changed. A user clicks "check
for updates" and these new packages are requested for update. Those packages
that are already installed that don't need to be updated won't be. A meta
package is not some giant package that contains everything, it is actually a
package that contains absolutely nothing at all, it just requires lots of
other packages before it can be installed. Please read on for more
information [1]

What this will mean is that you can update the system incrementally, exactly
like Redhat, Suse, etc managed by YUM, or Debian, Ubuntu, etc managed by
aptitude. What's different is because Nokia provides tech support, they
don't want to support the newest version of package X until they are ready
and have fully tested it, so even if someone in the community builds package
X AND X is part of the main system, you won't be able to upgrade without
going to red pill or using apt-get. However, /you will still be able to
install the package by going to red pill or using apt-get/ and this will
/only/ effect main system packages.


I tried to install and test a debian armel pkg earlier today but I couldn't

because a core dependency isn't met on the Nokia.  No sweat, If I had had
the
armel repository in my repositories it would have given me the full chaos
of
the dependency chain then stopped and waited for my approval.



I don't know how to respond. I'm not sure quite what you're talking about...


Be careful when protecting idiots, you usually end up losing the people you

want to keep and getting stuck with a load of empty heads.



Please re-read the original post for this thread and look at the
proposition. They really aren't protecting idiots so much as offering a safe
way to provide incremental upgrades, just like desktop linux systems.

[1]http://people.debian.org/~tille/debian-med/talks/paper/debian-med-8.html

--Paul
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Re: [maemo-users] Verizon BT DUN?

2007-02-15 Thread Jonathan Greene 

thanks - much appreciated!


On 2/15/07, Acadia Secure Networks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


 Jonathan,

 here are the urls to some (overlapping) suggested solutions pertaining to
DUN (bluetooth and USB) and Verizon:


http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=825860&page=1&pp=15



http://www.pdaphonehome.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64889




http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=827559



 http://www.myehud.com/xv6600/usbmodem.html



 http://www.myehud.com/xv6600/dialer_driver.zip







Best Regards,



John Holmblad








 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
what settings are you guys using?  thanks!!

 On 2/15/07, Brad Midgley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Jonathan

 I am using a treo 700p this way, but it feels a little goofy when what I
 really wanted was just a simple flipphone. Also, it doesn't perform as
 well as my last phone, maxing out just short of 400kbps.

 I had a motorola e815 that was working great with a typical 600kbps.
 After a "mandatory" firmware upgrade, my 770 (and my dell axim with no
 verizon app) could no longer find the dun service.

 fwiw, I eventually got verizon to replace the e815 with the 700p at no
 charge.

 Brad

 > Has anyone had success connecting through a VZ phone for data
 > connectivity?  I have a friend who is going to return an N800 since he
 > can't get online through the phone...
 >
 > I know VZ and Sprint have made it tough previously... but someone must
 > have figured it out.
 >
 >
 > Thanks,
 > JG
 >








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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread James Sparenberg 
On Thursday 15 February 2007 11:38:29 Marius Vollmer wrote:
> "ext Levi Bard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > Say you've just released an OS metapackage, maemo 3.1 sturgeon, and
> > then one the guys working on cairo makes a huge breakthrough in
> > speed and stability.  You want users to be able to upgrade, but now
> > you have to release a new OS metapackage to do so, [...]
>
> Yes, and I actually see this as a feature, since there is no "apt-get
> upgrade" functionality in the Application Manager.  Users would get
> the newer vesion of cairo by accident, when they install or upgrade a
> non-hidden package that depends on cairo.
>
> Another example are security fixes: they too will require a meta
> package.  I think the additional burdon to maintain this meta package
> is not too high.
>
> >> The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' [...]
> >
> > I am wholly in favor of this, as may be gathered from my previous
> > paragraph.  And the "trusted repository" scheme means that the device
> > is just as locked down for support purposes.
>
> Not exactly: we do not only want to control which individual packages
> you can install, but also which combinations.  Say there is a new
> version of cairo, but we figure out that we also need to upgrade the
> internet radio applet since it had a bug that--by chance--wasn't
> triggered by the old version of cairo.  So we want to only support the
> new cairo together with the new radio applet.
>
> With a version locked meta package, we can make sure that the user
> gets the right combinations of packages.

umm Maybe I'm missing something but since this is debian based .deb's handle 
this quite well.  XXX.deb can require YYY.deb version 2.1 or greater.  You 
are going to not only go nuts building meta packages but also go nuts trying 
to re-invent in a way a wheel you already have.  I can understand the meta 
for going from 2.0 to 2.2 for example (all done one fell swoop) but why 
update everthing just to include a couple of K of changes.   

I tried to install and test a debian armel pkg earlier today but I couldn't 
because a core dependency isn't met on the Nokia.  No sweat, If I had had the 
armel repository in my repositories it would have given me the full chaos of 
the dependency chain then stopped and waited for my approval.  

Be careful when protecting idiots, you usually end up losing the people you 
want to keep and getting stuck with a load of empty heads.

James


>
> If you want to try out the new cairo anyway before Nokia releases the
> official meta package that pulls it in, you can do that of course by
> using apt-get or the red-pill mode.
> ___
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Re: [maemo-users] Verizon BT DUN?

2007-02-15 Thread Acadia Secure Networks 

Jonathan,

here are the urls to some (overlapping) suggested solutions pertaining 
to DUN (bluetooth and USB) and Verizon:


http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=825860&page=1&pp=15


   http://www.pdaphonehome.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64889

  
   http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=827559



   http://www.myehud.com/xv6600/usbmodem.html


   http://www.myehud.com/xv6600/dialer_driver.zip


Best Regards,



John Holmblad








[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

what settings are you guys using?  thanks!!

On 2/15/07, Brad Midgley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Jonathan

I am using a treo 700p this way, but it feels a little goofy when what I
really wanted was just a simple flipphone. Also, it doesn't perform as
well as my last phone, maxing out just short of 400kbps.

I had a motorola e815 that was working great with a typical 600kbps.
After a "mandatory" firmware upgrade, my 770 (and my dell axim with no
verizon app) could no longer find the dun service.

fwiw, I eventually got verizon to replace the e815 with the 700p at no
charge.

Brad

> Has anyone had success connecting through a VZ phone for data
> connectivity?  I have a friend who is going to return an N800 since he
> can't get online through the phone...
>
> I know VZ and Sprint have made it tough previously... but someone must
> have figured it out.
>
>
> Thanks,
> JG
>





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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread James Sparenberg 
On Thursday 15 February 2007 08:10:07 Marius Vollmer wrote:
> "ext Andy Mulhearn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> So are you looking to move away from the System Upgrade := reflash
> >> device model? If so, then GOOD!
> >
> > To be honest I prefer this route now, if only from the point of view
> > that if I bork my device I can reflash an image and get it working
> > again.
>
> I am not sure if there will always be flash image for each version of
> the meta package, but there will always be reasonably recent flash
> images so that upgrading from one to the latest 'patch level' should
> not be daunting.

That's reasonable IMHO ...  I mean on my laptop if I bork my Linux install 
(Like the day my then 2 year old discovered the up arrow and just as he hit 
return it was on rm -Rf *  ahh! )  I grab the latest CD I have and 
then wade through the updates till I'm on the current version.  What I like 
is that idea that a path is available.  

If I understand correctly then there will be three possibles.

1.  Total bork re-flash then update.
2.  Partial bork re-install current meta pkg to replace corruptions (Running 
but not running right) using for example apt-get --reinstall meta-pkg.deb 
3.  New packages are out upgrade.  

Advantage I see here big time is an easier way to run an unstable "branch" on 
packages or ideas.  

James

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Re: [maemo-users] VidConvert and WMV files

2007-02-15 Thread Jonathan Greene 

Thanks - yeah for viewing wmv, mp4 or mov you have to convert either
through bookmarket or upload... I know heywatch supports both.
VIdcovert is great for bookmarklet - though I have yet to try more
than flv.



On 2/15/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 03:18:12PM -0500, Jonathan Greene wrote:
> I have yet to try it, but I ran across http://heywatch.com yesterday
> an it's has some slick features like RSS and FTP subs for your
> files...

Thank you Jonathan, I can always count on yoiu to have some recently discovered 
and clever little app up your sleeve.  Unfortunately, it looks like Heywatch 
wants the videos to come from one of a number of online sources.  The ones I 
have are pretty esoteric training videos not on a Youtube site, rather on a 
university site.

Although viewing when not online would be ideal, I am usually connected to the 
Internet with my 770 and streaming is an option.  If only mplayer played wmv 
files...

thanks,
K

--
In Vino Veritas
http://astroturfgarden.com


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Re: [maemo-users] VidConvert and WMV files

2007-02-15 Thread ktneely 
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 03:18:12PM -0500, Jonathan Greene wrote:
> I have yet to try it, but I ran across http://heywatch.com yesterday
> an it's has some slick features like RSS and FTP subs for your
> files...

Thank you Jonathan, I can always count on yoiu to have some recently discovered 
and clever little app up your sleeve.  Unfortunately, it looks like Heywatch 
wants the videos to come from one of a number of online sources.  The ones I 
have are pretty esoteric training videos not on a Youtube site, rather on a 
university site.

Although viewing when not online would be ideal, I am usually connected to the 
Internet with my 770 and streaming is an option.  If only mplayer played wmv 
files...

thanks,
K

-- 
In Vino Veritas
http://astroturfgarden.com



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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread ktneely 
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 08:25:41AM -0800, Andy Mulhearn wrote:
>  
> On Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 04:12PM, "Marius Vollmer" <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >I am not sure if there will always be flash image for each version of
> >the meta package, but there will always be reasonably recent flash
> >images so that upgrading from one to the latest 'patch level' should
> >not be daunting.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation where you 
> reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your system and then have 
> to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to where you were.
> 

Nokia /could/ take a page from Microsoft's book and provide the ability to 
"slipstream" updates into a flash package.  Of course, this would probably lose 
the 'official' moniker, but would be a cool option for a user to re-flash the 
particular revisions and apps he/she uses.

I did this with SP2 for XP to lessen the time it takes to update.  Of course, 
there's no SP3, so it is still an arduous process, but better...

K

-- 
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http://astroturfgarden.com



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Re: [maemo-users] VidConvert and WMV files

2007-02-15 Thread Jonathan Greene 

I have yet to try it, but I ran across http://heywatch.com yesterday
an it's has some slick features like RSS and FTP subs for your
files...


On 2/15/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Has anyone experienced any problems converting WMV files using VidConvert?  I 
converted three today and they came out looking great, but no sound on my 770

If not, does anyone know of any alternatives?  Especially ones I could do using 
only my nokia?

thanks,
K

--
In Vino Veritas
http://astroturfgarden.com


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[maemo-users] Re: 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Neil MacLeod 

Neil MacLeod wrote:
I like the idea of being able to apply OS patches, however it sounds 
like this functionality doesn't quite fit in the Application Manager 
application so why not provide a separate "Upgrade Operating System" GUI 
application that has all the checks and balances you need built in to it 
without polluting the standard user-friendly Application Manager?


The "Upgrade OS" could be designed so that it applies all the latest 
patches/meta packages or just a single patch/package, and would not 
allow uninstallation of installed patches/packages.


There would be no relationship between an OS package and an application 
package, so the latter couldn't result in the installation of the former.


Since you are looking to add restrictions to the Application Manager for 
certain types of packages, it might make more sense to create a separate 
and tailored GUI for the restricted packages.




Maybe I'm talking to myself, but the ability to upgrade the operating system seems to be 
a misplaced function in a tool called "Application Manager".

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[maemo-users] VidConvert and WMV files

2007-02-15 Thread ktneely 
Has anyone experienced any problems converting WMV files using VidConvert?  I 
converted three today and they came out looking great, but no sound on my 770

If not, does anyone know of any alternatives?  Especially ones I could do using 
only my nokia?

thanks,
K

-- 
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http://astroturfgarden.com



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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Levi Bard 

Yes, and I actually see this as a feature, since there is no "apt-get
upgrade" functionality in the Application Manager.  Users would get
the newer vesion of cairo by accident, when they install or upgrade a
non-hidden package that depends on cairo.


Semi-related: how about an "Upgrade All" button on the "Check for Updates" page?


Not exactly: we do not only want to control which individual packages
you can install, but also which combinations.  Say there is a new
version of cairo, but we figure out that we also need to upgrade the
internet radio applet since it had a bug that--by chance--wasn't
triggered by the old version of cairo.  So we want to only support the
new cairo together with the new radio applet.

With a version locked meta package, we can make sure that the user
gets the right combinations of packages.


Wouldn't you just use standard dependencies for this?  Make the new
radio applet depend on the new cairo?

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[maemo-users] rsync repository

2007-02-15 Thread Benjamí Villoslada 
Hi,

I'm looking for rsync in order to use grsync, byt only see this: 
http://vidar.gimp.org/770/ 

Anyone knows the rsnync repository?  Thanks :)

-- 
Benjamí
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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
"ext Levi Bard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Say you've just released an OS metapackage, maemo 3.1 sturgeon, and
> then one the guys working on cairo makes a huge breakthrough in
> speed and stability.  You want users to be able to upgrade, but now
> you have to release a new OS metapackage to do so, [...]

Yes, and I actually see this as a feature, since there is no "apt-get
upgrade" functionality in the Application Manager.  Users would get
the newer vesion of cairo by accident, when they install or upgrade a
non-hidden package that depends on cairo.

Another example are security fixes: they too will require a meta
package.  I think the additional burdon to maintain this meta package
is not too high.

>> The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' [...]
>
> I am wholly in favor of this, as may be gathered from my previous
> paragraph.  And the "trusted repository" scheme means that the device
> is just as locked down for support purposes.

Not exactly: we do not only want to control which individual packages
you can install, but also which combinations.  Say there is a new
version of cairo, but we figure out that we also need to upgrade the
internet radio applet since it had a bug that--by chance--wasn't
triggered by the old version of cairo.  So we want to only support the
new cairo together with the new radio applet.

With a version locked meta package, we can make sure that the user
gets the right combinations of packages.

If you want to try out the new cairo anyway before Nokia releases the
official meta package that pulls it in, you can do that of course by
using apt-get or the red-pill mode.
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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Levi Bard 

My thought is that it might be worthwhile to have a constant warning written
at the bottom of the "Check for Updates" dialog in the Application manager.
A user should really backup before any update, but prompting with a dialog
that frequently will only encourage users to ignore it. Major updates should
definitely come with a dialog, and as this occurs less frequently perhaps
people might actually read it and heed the warning ;)


IMO a constant warning will become part of the scenery, and users will
forget about it, if indeed they notice it at all in the first place.

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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Levi Bard 

In the future, we hope to be able to provide official updates to the
operating system itself via packages, and we need to give the
end-users the confidence that when they intend to install a Nokia
provided operating system update, they actually get what they think
they are getting.


Great!  It'll be great to escape the backup->flash->restore->reinstall cycle!


This means that the Application Manager will not allow you to update
individual OS packages (or to install third party applications that
require this), since you would have to remove the meta package for
that.  It is still possible to install additional 'system' packages,
just not to upgrade already installed ones.

A second new feature is that the Application Manager will distinguish
between "trusted sources" and "non-trusted sources" (based on the key
used to sign the corresponding repository).  A package that has
originally been installed from a trusted source will only be allowed
to be updated (or replaced) from a trusted source.  The flash image is
also treated as a trusted source, so you will only be able to update
packages that are pre-installed in the device from trusted sources.


IMO the second new feature makes the first one irrelevant.  Locking
the OS metapackage to exact versions of depended packages will cause
headaches for nokia, developers, and users.

Say you've just released an OS metapackage, maemo 3.1 sturgeon, and
then one the guys working on cairo makes a huge breakthrough in speed
and stability.  You want users to be able to upgrade, but now you have
to release a new OS metapackage to do so, so you either need to make
users wait for another "full" release, or release a new OS metapackage
whose only change is an upgraded cairo dependency.  This potentially
means a lot of frivolous new OS releases.

However, the "trusted source" feature means that you don't have to
worry about this.  If you release OS metapackage maemo-3.2007-sturgeon
with the *greater than or equal*-style dependencies, people can only
upgrade those packages from Nokia.  This means that users don't have
to worry about the potential of getting a broken cairo package from
Joe's Repo, and that you can release a new cairo package when it's
ready without having to worry about synchronizing with other packages'
releases, announcing a new OS release, etc.


The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' of a package
instead of on "exactly this version'.  That would allow it to control
the update just as much, but would not lock down the configuration of
the device so much.  The motivation for this lock-down of the device
configuration is that Nokia (probably, IANAL) doesn't want to support
any other configuration, and having to 'hack' your system via the
red-pill mode or similar is a good indication that you are now on your
own.


I am wholly in favor of this, as may be gathered from my previous
paragraph.  And the "trusted repository" scheme means that the device
is just as locked down for support purposes.

--
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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Andy Mulhearn 


On 15 Feb 2007, at 16:39, Marius Vollmer wrote:


"ext Andy Mulhearn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:


I suppose that depends on how reliable is the incremental flash
process. If it's 100% then there should be no problems with what you
suggest.


That's one thing that we have to figure out.


Non-trivial I suspect.




My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation
where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your
system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to
where you were.


I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is
what you describe.


Grim. One of the levels of hell.

Andy
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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Andy Mulhearn 


On 15 Feb 2007, at 16:47, Paul Klapperich wrote:


On 2/15/07, Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation
> where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your
> system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to
> where you were.

I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is
what you describe.

That, in particular, would be solved by having a somewhat recent  
flash image like you mentioned earlier. What he's describing would  
be akin to having to install Ubuntu Dapper and then having to patch  
your way up to Feisty Fawn, or similar. Generally not a danger, but  
it certainly takes a long time.




With the added joys of having to authenticate your software, download  
a new copy of dpkg/apt-get, reboot three times, re-authenticate your  
licence, phone Microsoft when you fail authentication, reboot and  
wait an hour while all the patches install.


Andy

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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
Carlos Guerreiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> I grant you a brief peek into our internal software
>> requirements... :-)
>>
>>  22.3.1.3: The Application manager shall suggest a backup to be taken
>>before a system update is installed.
>>
>> Rebooting and checking for enough free flash will also be taken care
>> of.
>>
>> Yeah, we should be doing this kind of planning more in the open...
>>
> There's nothing stopping you :-)

Well, let's say our internal processes work very much differently and
I don't want to ping pong between external and internal discussions.
But yeah, I will be putting up-coming feature descriptions on the
garage pages of the hildon-app-mgr.
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Re: [maemo-users] OpenedHand dates -- evolution-data-server?

2007-02-15 Thread Jon A. Solworth 

Luca Donaggio wrote:
2007/2/15, Jon A. Solworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>:


   I added in the repository for bora on openhand, to get dates and
contacts.
(By the way, it would be much easier to google for these things if it
was called
o-hand-dates or some such thing).

   The libraries in the repository can't be installed (Incompatible
application package),
and as a consequence there seems to be no evolution-data-server.  (I'd
like to download
my calendar/contacts/.. from my desktop).  This is on an n800 by
the way
(bora repository).
Contacts and dates install fine.

   Any ideas?

thanks,
Jon

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Do you set-up in your Application Inastaller this repo?

repository.maemo.org 
bora
free non-free


   Yes, that's in the application installer.  Any other ideas?



It's needed to install some of the dependencies of both Dates and Contacts

Luca Donaggio


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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Carlos Guerreiro 



I grant you a brief peek into our internal software
requirements... :-)

 22.3.1.3: The Application manager shall suggest a backup to be taken
   before a system update is installed.

Rebooting and checking for enough free flash will also be taken care
of.

Yeah, we should be doing this kind of planning more in the open...
  

There's nothing stopping you :-)

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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
"ext Paul Klapperich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> 22.3.1.3: The Application manager shall suggest a backup to be taken
>before a system update is installed.
>
> Would this just be for major updates--perhaps those than cause a
> change in the firmware revision number--or would this be any time a
> "system" package gets an upgrade?

It is under control of the meta package, actually.  Each version of
the meta package can specify whether the dialog should pop up or
not.  Likewise for reboots.
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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Paul Klapperich 

On 2/15/07, Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I grant you a brief peek into our internal software
requirements... :-)

22.3.1.3: The Application manager shall suggest a backup to be taken
   before a system update is installed.

Rebooting and checking for enough free flash will also be taken care
of.

Yeah, we should be doing this kind of planning more in the open...



Would this just be for major updates--perhaps those than cause a change in
the firmware revision number--or would this be any time a "system" package
gets an upgrade?

My thought is that it might be worthwhile to have a constant warning written
at the bottom of the "Check for Updates" dialog in the Application manager.
A user should really backup before any update, but prompting with a dialog
that frequently will only encourage users to ignore it. Major updates should
definitely come with a dialog, and as this occurs less frequently perhaps
people might actually read it and heed the warning ;)

The trade off, I suppose, is such a constant warning will take up screen
real estate. My $0.02

--Paul
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Re: [maemo-users] OpenedHand dates -- evolution-data-server?

2007-02-15 Thread Luca Donaggio 

2007/2/15, Jon A. Solworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


   I added in the repository for bora on openhand, to get dates and
contacts.
(By the way, it would be much easier to google for these things if it
was called
o-hand-dates or some such thing).

   The libraries in the repository can't be installed (Incompatible
application package),
and as a consequence there seems to be no evolution-data-server.  (I'd
like to download
my calendar/contacts/.. from my desktop).  This is on an n800 by the way
(bora repository).
Contacts and dates install fine.

   Any ideas?

thanks,
Jon

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Do you set-up in your Application Inastaller this repo?

repository.maemo.org
bora
free non-free


It's needed to install some of the dependencies of both Dates and Contacts

Luca Donaggio
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[maemo-users] Re: 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Neil MacLeod 

Marius Vollmer wrote:

There is going to be a 'meta' package that represents the whole
operating system.  Updates to the OS are done by updating this meta
package in the Application Manager.  The meta package will have
dependencies on all packages with their exact versions that make up
the official OS releases.  The Application Manager will not allow the
removal of the meta package.



I like the idea of being able to apply OS patches, however it sounds like this 
functionality doesn't quite fit in the Application Manager application so why not provide 
a separate "Upgrade Operating System" GUI application that has all the checks 
and balances you need built in to it without polluting the standard user-friendly 
Application Manager?

The "Upgrade OS" could be designed so that it applies all the latest 
patches/meta packages or just a single patch/package, and would not allow uninstallation 
of installed patches/packages.

There would be no relationship between an OS package and an application 
package, so the latter couldn't result in the installation of the former.

Since you are looking to add restrictions to the Application Manager for 
certain types of packages, it might make more sense to create a separate and 
tailored GUI for the restricted packages.

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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Paul Klapperich 

On 2/15/07, Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation
> where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your
> system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to
> where you were.

I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is
what you describe.



That, in particular, would be solved by having a somewhat recent flash image
like you mentioned earlier. What he's describing would be akin to having to
install Ubuntu Dapper and then having to patch your way up to Feisty Fawn,
or similar. Generally not a danger, but it certainly takes a long time.
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[maemo-users] OpenedHand dates -- evolution-data-server?

2007-02-15 Thread Jon A. Solworth 
  I added in the repository for bora on openhand, to get dates and 
contacts.
(By the way, it would be much easier to google for these things if it 
was called

o-hand-dates or some such thing).

  The libraries in the repository can't be installed (Incompatible 
application package),
and as a consequence there seems to be no evolution-data-server.  (I'd 
like to download
my calendar/contacts/.. from my desktop).  This is on an n800 by the way 
(bora repository).

Contacts and dates install fine.

  Any ideas?

thanks,
Jon

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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
"ext Eero Tamminen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> ext Andy Mulhearn wrote:
>
>> But if you can just apply a major firmware upgrade by accepting it
>> in application manager and you don't think to backup first, what
>> happens it goes wrong leaving you with an unworkable system?
>
> Good point, I think the application manager should prompt user
> to do a backup before trying to do a system upgrade.

I grant you a brief peek into our internal software
requirements... :-)

 22.3.1.3: The Application manager shall suggest a backup to be taken
   before a system update is installed.

Rebooting and checking for enough free flash will also be taken care
of.

Yeah, we should be doing this kind of planning more in the open...
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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
"ext Andy Mulhearn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I suppose that depends on how reliable is the incremental flash
> process. If it's 100% then there should be no problems with what you
> suggest.

That's one thing that we have to figure out.

> My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation
> where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your
> system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to
> where you were.

I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is
what you describe.
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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Eero Tamminen 

Hi,

ext Andy Mulhearn wrote:
So are you looking to move away from the System Upgrade := reflash 
device model? If so, then GOOD!

To be honest I prefer this route now, if only from the point of view
that if I bork my device I can reflash an image and get it working
again.

I am not sure if there will always be flash image for each version of
the meta package, but there will always be reasonably recent flash
images so that upgrading from one to the latest 'patch level' should
not be daunting.


I suppose that depends on how reliable is the incremental flash process. If it's 100% then there should be no problems with what you suggest. 


My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation where you 
reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your system and then have 
to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to where you were.

Microsoft have put a lot of effort into windows update to get around the fact 
that they can't redistribute windows CDs where with the N770/N800 we're in the 
reverse situation where redistribution of the firmware image is relatively 
painless.

It also occurs to me that when you reflash, you know you have to do a backup or you lose your data. The fact that when you boot for the first time with a fresh image, the N800 sees the backups and offers to reinstall your settings makes that a relatively painless process. 


But if you can just apply a major firmware upgrade by accepting it in 
application manager and you don't think to backup first, what happens it goes 
wrong leaving you with an unworkable system?


Good point, I think the application manager should prompt user
to do a backup before trying to do a system upgrade.



Andy, voting for both the old and the new approach...



- Eero

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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Andy Mulhearn 
 
On Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 04:12PM, "Marius Vollmer" <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
>"ext Andy Mulhearn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>>> So are you looking to move away from the System Upgrade := reflash 
>>> device model? If so, then GOOD!
>>
>> To be honest I prefer this route now, if only from the point of view
>> that if I bork my device I can reflash an image and get it working
>> again.
>
>I am not sure if there will always be flash image for each version of
>the meta package, but there will always be reasonably recent flash
>images so that upgrading from one to the latest 'patch level' should
>not be daunting.
>
>

I suppose that depends on how reliable is the incremental flash process. If 
it's 100% then there should be no problems with what you suggest. 

My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation where you 
reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your system and then have 
to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to where you were.

Microsoft have put a lot of effort into windows update to get around the fact 
that they can't redistribute windows CDs where with the N770/N800 we're in the 
reverse situation where redistribution of the firmware image is relatively 
painless.

It also occurs to me that when you reflash, you know you have to do a backup or 
you lose your data. The fact that when you boot for the first time with a fresh 
image, the N800 sees the backups and offers to reinstall your settings makes 
that a relatively painless process. 

But if you can just apply a major firmware upgrade by accepting it in 
application manager and you don't think to backup first, what happens it goes 
wrong leaving you with an unworkable system?

Andy, voting for both the old and the new approach...
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Re: [maemo-users] Verizon BT DUN?

2007-02-15 Thread Jonathan Greene 

what settings are you guys using?  thanks!!

On 2/15/07, Brad Midgley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Jonathan

I am using a treo 700p this way, but it feels a little goofy when what I
really wanted was just a simple flipphone. Also, it doesn't perform as
well as my last phone, maxing out just short of 400kbps.

I had a motorola e815 that was working great with a typical 600kbps.
After a "mandatory" firmware upgrade, my 770 (and my dell axim with no
verizon app) could no longer find the dun service.

fwiw, I eventually got verizon to replace the e815 with the 700p at no
charge.

Brad

> Has anyone had success connecting through a VZ phone for data
> connectivity?  I have a friend who is going to return an N800 since he
> can't get online through the phone...
>
> I know VZ and Sprint have made it tough previously... but someone must
> have figured it out.
>
>
> Thanks,
> JG
>





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m 917.560.3000
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Re: [maemo-users] Verizon BT DUN?

2007-02-15 Thread Brad Midgley 
Jonathan

I am using a treo 700p this way, but it feels a little goofy when what I
really wanted was just a simple flipphone. Also, it doesn't perform as
well as my last phone, maxing out just short of 400kbps.

I had a motorola e815 that was working great with a typical 600kbps.
After a "mandatory" firmware upgrade, my 770 (and my dell axim with no
verizon app) could no longer find the dun service.

fwiw, I eventually got verizon to replace the e815 with the 700p at no
charge.

Brad

> Has anyone had success connecting through a VZ phone for data
> connectivity?  I have a friend who is going to return an N800 since he
> can't get online through the phone...
> 
> I know VZ and Sprint have made it tough previously... but someone must
> have figured it out.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> JG
> 

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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
"ext Andy Mulhearn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> So are you looking to move away from the System Upgrade := reflash 
>> device model? If so, then GOOD!
>
> To be honest I prefer this route now, if only from the point of view
> that if I bork my device I can reflash an image and get it working
> again.

I am not sure if there will always be flash image for each version of
the meta package, but there will always be reasonably recent flash
images so that upgrading from one to the latest 'patch level' should
not be daunting.
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Re: [maemo-users] Verizon BT DUN?

2007-02-15 Thread Acadia Secure Networks 

JG,

yes. I have successfully tested it  with a N800 DUN-ning to a Verizon 
XV6700. I am surprised how well it works, in fact, better than my 
Bluetooth headset to the 6700.  Verizon Wireless as you know is not 
friendly towards tethering because Verizon Wireless offers a lower price 
on their EVDO service when it is associated with a EVDO capable handset 
than when it is associated with a PCMCIA card (data only service). 
Sprint, on the other hand, I believe, does not have a commercial issue 
or hostility toward tethering.


There is advice available on the www on how to enable Bluetooth and USB DUN.


Best Regards,



John Holmblad





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Has anyone had success connecting through a VZ phone for data
connectivity?  I have a friend who is going to return an N800 since he
can't get online through the phone...

I know VZ and Sprint have made it tough previously... but someone must
have figured it out.


Thanks,
JG

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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
"ext David Hagood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Might I suggest two meta packages - one locked down to "This version
> only" and one specifying "this version or later."

As Paul says, I think we can leave this second meta package out of the
official releases.
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Re: [maemo-users] Dropbear-client broken?

2007-02-15 Thread Tuukka Tolvanen 

ext Marius Gedminas wrote:

On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 09:06:35PM +0100, Magnus Larsson wrote:



[: ==: unknown operand


Bug in dropbear's postinst script.  Find the line that uses == inside [ ]
and replace it with =.  You can do that in
/var/lib/dpkg/info/dropbear-client.postinst, I think, but it would be
better to fix the package itself.


dpkg: error processing dropbear-client (--configure):
subprocess post-installation script killed by signal (Segmentation fault)


Whoa, Segmentation fault?  Where did that one come from?


to paraphrase,

$ sh
$ PS1='X '
X [ bogus bogus ]
[: bogus: unknown operand
Segmentation fault
$

't.
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[maemo-users] Verizon BT DUN?

2007-02-15 Thread Jonathan Greene 

Has anyone had success connecting through a VZ phone for data
connectivity?  I have a friend who is going to return an N800 since he
can't get online through the phone...

I know VZ and Sprint have made it tough previously... but someone must
have figured it out.


Thanks,
JG

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m 917.560.3000
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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Paul Klapperich 

On 2/15/07, Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The set of trusted sources will be under control of a power-user: you
can just add some GPG keys to the right place, but there is no UI to
do it.  You can also switch the whole lock-down machinery off by going
to red-pill mode.

So whaddaya think?  Useful?  Too painful?  Too difficult to escape
from?



I like it. The whole thing, especially the part quoted above. I don't think
there's any need for a this version or newer meta-package with the ability
to override the system or add trusted sources as you described above. The
community can always create such a package if it really becomes necessary
for power-users; meta packages are straight forward enough. But after
bricking my device at least twice during the first week I had it by doing
"apt-get dist-upgrade" it would be nice to have a strict version-dependent
meta package. Then even apt-get would complain about conflicts on the
command line.

I like it. How soon can we start ;)

--Paul
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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Acadia Secure Networks 

All,

there is a company, rpath, that is providing some if not all of what is 
needed for management of the OS codebase. Here is the url to a press 
release for their product:


   
http://www.rpath.com/corp/news-and-events/rpath-continues-momentum-with-addition-of-9.1m-in-fu-5.html


Maybe Nokia is using such a tool internally but if not, it appears to be 
worth considering.



Best Regards,



John Holmblad






[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

As for the concrete plan:

There is going to be a 'meta' package that represents the whole
operating system.  Updates to the OS are done by updating this meta
package in the Application Manager.  The meta package will have
dependencies on all packages with their exact versions that make up
the official OS releases.  The Application Manager will not allow the
removal of the meta package.

I have found through experience this is a very powerful way to use standard 
distribution tools and still hold control. I've implimented a mechanism like 
this and it works well. We made it such that (and from the sounds of it this 
will be the same) a developer could remove the meta lock package and wreak 
havoc on the system. This was a good thing. Hardcore devels could do bad 
things, but they will always do bad things. This gave them the last hurdle to 
say, you are now out of control. It also means that support can easily tell 
when a user has willfully removed the meta lock and thus absolve themselevs 
of some level of support. 
  

This means that the Application Manager will not allow you to update
individual OS packages (or to install third party applications that
require this), since you would have to remove the meta package for
that.  It is still possible to install additional 'system' packages,
just not to upgrade already installed ones.

A second new feature is that the Application Manager will distinguish
between "trusted sources" and "non-trusted sources" (based on the key
used to sign the corresponding repository).  A package that has
originally been installed from a trusted source will only be allowed
to be updated (or replaced) from a trusted source.  The flash image is
also treated as a trusted source, so you will only be able to update
packages that are pre-installed in the device from trusted sources.

This makes it easier for the user to be sure that he doesn't pick up
unwanted system software updates by accident.

The set of trusted sources will be under control of a power-user: you
can just add some GPG keys to the right place, but there is no UI to
do it.  You can also switch the whole lock-down machinery off by going
to red-pill mode.

So whaddaya think?  Useful?  Too painful?  Too difficult to escape
from?

Presonally I think the one or two one-time extra steps will not be a burdne 
for hackers and yet provide some safety to users. Overall I think it solves 
much of the 'rouge' package concerns. 

As you said it does not solve all the problems. But no single solution will 
solve everything, but this is a strong first step. 


Thanks
Brian

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Re: [maemo-users] important message for maemo.org wiki users

2007-02-15 Thread Henri Bergius 

Hi!

On 2/15/07, Ferenc Szekely <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We are in the middle of converting the old documentation to our new Midgard
Content Management System. As part of this activity we have created a tool that
will import the existing wiki pages to Midgard's Markdown [1] syntax.


Actually, this is the extended Markdown version, Markdown Extra. This
means you can also do things like tables and definition lists...

http://www.michelf.com/projects/php-markdown/extra/

http://blog.thingoid.com/2006/01/markdown-cheat-sheet/


ferenc


/Henri

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Re: [maemo-users] Booting from MMC as a de-bricking method

2007-02-15 Thread Paule Ecimovic 
Thanks Frantisek and all for your responses. I am most concerned about the 
bricking scenarios resulting from flashing a 770 to set it into R&D mode, 
where the 770 sometimes bricks after rebooting. Are there bricking scenarios 
in this reboot situation which involve corruption beyond MMC reboot? Any 
chance of hard-disk based ITOS for Nokia Internet Tablet's. I know this 
would require more power and possibly a larger footprint and many 
architectural modifications which might defeat the (nascent niche) purpose, 
but it would allow rebooting in various modes and under various privledge 
schemes without the threat of irreparable bricking.


Cheers,

   Paule
- Original Message - 
From: "Frantisek Dufka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Paule Ecimovic" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [maemo-users] Booting from MMC as a de-bricking method



Paule Ecimovic wrote:

Hi, all
 Is it possible to boot from MMC (assuming one sets up this booting 
option by cloning the 770 on a suitably-large MMC and installing the 
alternate boot loader and all the rest) to recover from a bricking flash?


Boot from mmc can help you only when the problem is in rootfs partition 
i.e. (a bit simplistic explanation) when booting the device blue 
progressbar on the bottom starts.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'bricking flash' but any device reflash with 
full firmware image removes modified initfs with boot menu and then you 
cannot boot from mmc at all (without reflashing modified initfs back). But 
this is not big problem because booting from mmc allows you to stop fixing 
problems with your device by reflashing. Instead of reflashing you can 
boot clean system and either mount broken system and fix it (if you know 
how) or save data from it and clone your clean system to mmc and start 
again.


Are there bricking scenarios from which it is not possible to recover via 
booting from MMC?


Definitely yes but most things that can normally go wrong happen in 
rootfs. Examples:


- you install bad/incompatible package
- you try apt-get upgrade
- you are trying to hack startup sequence
- device reboots in wrong moment and some system files get lost or become 
corrupted (yes this really happens sometimes if you are unlucky)


Frantisek 


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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Brian Waite 
>
> As for the concrete plan:
>
> There is going to be a 'meta' package that represents the whole
> operating system.  Updates to the OS are done by updating this meta
> package in the Application Manager.  The meta package will have
> dependencies on all packages with their exact versions that make up
> the official OS releases.  The Application Manager will not allow the
> removal of the meta package.
I have found through experience this is a very powerful way to use standard 
distribution tools and still hold control. I've implimented a mechanism like 
this and it works well. We made it such that (and from the sounds of it this 
will be the same) a developer could remove the meta lock package and wreak 
havoc on the system. This was a good thing. Hardcore devels could do bad 
things, but they will always do bad things. This gave them the last hurdle to 
say, you are now out of control. It also means that support can easily tell 
when a user has willfully removed the meta lock and thus absolve themselevs 
of some level of support. 
>
> This means that the Application Manager will not allow you to update
> individual OS packages (or to install third party applications that
> require this), since you would have to remove the meta package for
> that.  It is still possible to install additional 'system' packages,
> just not to upgrade already installed ones.
>
> A second new feature is that the Application Manager will distinguish
> between "trusted sources" and "non-trusted sources" (based on the key
> used to sign the corresponding repository).  A package that has
> originally been installed from a trusted source will only be allowed
> to be updated (or replaced) from a trusted source.  The flash image is
> also treated as a trusted source, so you will only be able to update
> packages that are pre-installed in the device from trusted sources.
>
> This makes it easier for the user to be sure that he doesn't pick up
> unwanted system software updates by accident.
>
> The set of trusted sources will be under control of a power-user: you
> can just add some GPG keys to the right place, but there is no UI to
> do it.  You can also switch the whole lock-down machinery off by going
> to red-pill mode.
>
> So whaddaya think?  Useful?  Too painful?  Too difficult to escape
> from?
Presonally I think the one or two one-time extra steps will not be a burdne 
for hackers and yet provide some safety to users. Overall I think it solves 
much of the 'rouge' package concerns. 

As you said it does not solve all the problems. But no single solution will 
solve everything, but this is a strong first step. 

Thanks
Brian

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Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Andy Mulhearn 
 
On Thursday, February 15, 2007, at 01:09PM, "David Hagood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>Marius Vollmer wrote:
>> We would like to get your feedback on these plans, both from the
>> end-user point of view and from the point of view of package
>> developers.
>>
>>   
>Thank you for asking. That attitude is one of the reasons I like this 
>platform.
>> There is going to be a 'meta' package that represents the whole
>> operating system.  Updates to the OS are done by updating this meta
>> package in the Application Manager. 
>>   
>So are you looking to move away from the System Upgrade := reflash 
>device model? If so, then GOOD!

To be honest I prefer this route now, if only from the point of view that if I 
bork my device I can reflash an image and get it working again. If it's one or 
the other but not both I want to stick as we are.

Andy
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[maemo-users] important message for maemo.org wiki users

2007-02-15 Thread Ferenc Szekely 
Dear maemo.org wiki Editors and Readers,

We are in the middle of converting the old documentation to our new Midgard
Content Management System. As part of this activity we have created a tool that
will import the existing wiki pages to Midgard's Markdown [1] syntax. The
documents written by you will be integrated with the other maemo documentation.
So, how-tos will go to a how-to section, tutorials will be placed among
"official" maemo tutorials. We try to unite the community by integrating your
contributions properly.

In order to retain editing rights you must have a valid garage account.
Unfortunately we are not able to transfer your wiki accounts to garage, but we
will send a reminder to every wiki editors separately. If you have a garage
account already then you don't need to take any action.

I plan to import the current wiki pages during the coming weekend and beginning
of next week. This process can be followed at test.maemo.org. I will inform you
once the import has finished.

We would like to encourage all of you to start using the new pages as soon as
the wiki import has been completed. However the current maemo wiki will be
available for some time, but we will do __no more__ automated page conversion.
We could be radical and disable editing of the "old" pages, but this may cause
too much harm. We try to add a note to each old page about the transition
though. So please stay tuned.

Cheers,
ferenc

[1] http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/
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Re: [maemo-users] Load a browser

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Gedminas 
On Thu, Feb 15, 2007 at 12:04:00AM +, Carlos GP wrote:
> I'm trying to load a browser into maemo emulator (in xephyr) but:
> 
> - I can't find neither the source nor the binaries

Opera is closed-source.  It is not available for the emulator.



Marius Gedminas
-- 
Anybody who doesn't cut his speed at the sight of a police car is
probably parked.


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Re: [maemo-users] Dropbear-client broken?

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Gedminas 
On Wed, Feb 14, 2007 at 09:06:35PM +0100, Magnus Larsson wrote:
> I have just set up ssh on my N770, using dropbear. However, in the list 
> of installed applications the dropbear-client is marked as broken. This 
> seem not to affect ssh-server though, as there is no problems accessing 
> the N770 from my laptop.

FWIW OpenSSH works fine on the 770 (both client and server).

> In the terminal, I get the following:
> 
> /home/user # dpkg -l | grep dropbear
> rF  dropbear-client
> 0.48.1-1mh4  lightweight SSH2 client
> ii  dropbear-server
> 0.48.1-1mh4  lightweight SSH2 server
> 
> and:
> 
> /home/user # apt-get install dropbear-client
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree... Done
> dropbear-client is already the newest version.
> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 6 not upgraded.
> 1 not fully installed or removed.
> Need to get 0B of archives.
> After unpacking 0B of additional disk space will be used.
> /bin/sh: /usr/sbin/dpkg-preconfigure: not found
> Setting up dropbear-client (0.48.1-1mh4) ...
> [: ==: unknown operand

Bug in dropbear's postinst script.  Find the line that uses == inside [ ]
and replace it with =.  You can do that in
/var/lib/dpkg/info/dropbear-client.postinst, I think, but it would be
better to fix the package itself.

> dpkg: error processing dropbear-client (--configure):
> subprocess post-installation script killed by signal (Segmentation fault)

Whoa, Segmentation fault?  Where did that one come from?

> Errors were encountered while processing:
> dropbear-client
> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)

Marius Gedminas
-- 
The BeOS takes the best features from the major operating systems. It's got
the power and flexibility of Unix, the interface and ease of use of the MacOS,
and Minesweeper from Windows.
-- Tyler Riti


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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread David Hagood 

Marius Vollmer wrote:

We would like to get your feedback on these plans, both from the
end-user point of view and from the point of view of package
developers.

  
Thank you for asking. That attitude is one of the reasons I like this 
platform.

There is going to be a 'meta' package that represents the whole
operating system.  Updates to the OS are done by updating this meta
package in the Application Manager. 
  
So are you looking to move away from the System Upgrade := reflash 
device model? If so, then GOOD!



So whaddaya think?  Useful?  Too painful?  Too difficult to escape
from?

  

Sounds good so far.

Some variants that come to mind:

The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' of a package
instead of on "exactly this version'.  That would allow it to control
the update just as much, but would not lock down the configuration of
the device so much.  The motivation for this lock-down of the device
configuration is that Nokia (probably, IANAL) doesn't want to support
any other configuration, and having to 'hack' your system via the
red-pill mode or similar is a good indication that you are now on your
own.
  
Might I suggest two meta packages - one locked down to "This version 
only" and one specifying "this version or later." Have a mechanism 
whereby a power user can upgrade from meta-lockdown to meta-power (e.g. 
red pill mode). Have a mechanism whereby the status of what is installed 
is quickly apparent to customer service (e.g. a file that is displayed 
as part of the Device info page that gets changed) so that Customer 
Service can quickly say "Sorry, you have to reflash to standard before 
we can help you."


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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
"ext Jonathan Greene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> As a user, I like how this sounds.  I hope it also means that the
> Application Manager and user experience will be largely free of
> having to add repositories.

That is a separate thing, but yes, locking down system package
upgrades might make it more acceptable to ship the device with more
repositories pre-configured.  The maemo Extras repository comes to
mind, of course, and maybe even the maemo SDK repository.

> This could make finding new applications easier and more complete
> than the current process which still requires some desire to explore
> and understand the dependency factor.

Hopefully the new Application Catalogue with the .install files makes
adding repositories easy enough.

> Is it possible for some of the installs to simply ask for a password -
> in the same way that Apple OSX does it.

I don't see this happening.
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Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Jonathan Greene 

As a user, I like how this sounds.  I hope it also means that the
Application Manager and user experience will be largely free of having
to add repositories.  This could make finding new applications easier
and more complete than the current process which still requires some
desire to explore and understand the dependency factor.

Is it possible for some of the installs to simply ask for a password -
in the same way that Apple OSX does it.  If you are going to need to
add a file (simple install) it just works, but if the app needs to
write into the system you need to authenticate which alerts you to the
slightly more intense needs of the installer.

Thanks,
JG

On 2/15/07, Marius Vollmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,

we are planning to put some features into the Application Manager that
will make it more restrictive when handling the packages that make up
the operating system itself (as opposed to third party applications).

We would like to get your feedback on these plans, both from the
end-user point of view and from the point of view of package
developers.

In the future, we hope to be able to provide official updates to the
operating system itself via packages, and we need to give the
end-users the confidence that when they intend to install a Nokia
provided operating system update, they actually get what they think
they are getting.

As for the concrete plan:

There is going to be a 'meta' package that represents the whole
operating system.  Updates to the OS are done by updating this meta
package in the Application Manager.  The meta package will have
dependencies on all packages with their exact versions that make up
the official OS releases.  The Application Manager will not allow the
removal of the meta package.

This means that the Application Manager will not allow you to update
individual OS packages (or to install third party applications that
require this), since you would have to remove the meta package for
that.  It is still possible to install additional 'system' packages,
just not to upgrade already installed ones.

A second new feature is that the Application Manager will distinguish
between "trusted sources" and "non-trusted sources" (based on the key
used to sign the corresponding repository).  A package that has
originally been installed from a trusted source will only be allowed
to be updated (or replaced) from a trusted source.  The flash image is
also treated as a trusted source, so you will only be able to update
packages that are pre-installed in the device from trusted sources.

This makes it easier for the user to be sure that he doesn't pick up
unwanted system software updates by accident.

The set of trusted sources will be under control of a power-user: you
can just add some GPG keys to the right place, but there is no UI to
do it.  You can also switch the whole lock-down machinery off by going
to red-pill mode.

So whaddaya think?  Useful?  Too painful?  Too difficult to escape
from?


Some variants that come to mind:

The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' of a package
instead of on "exactly this version'.  That would allow it to control
the update just as much, but would not lock down the configuration of
the device so much.  The motivation for this lock-down of the device
configuration is that Nokia (probably, IANAL) doesn't want to support
any other configuration, and having to 'hack' your system via the
red-pill mode or similar is a good indication that you are now on your
own.

The locked-down upgrade path could support more than one set of
trusted sources down to the granularity of repositories.  This would
allow other parties than Nokia to make use of this feature.  That's
just a smop and might be done.


(And please understand that all this has nothing to do with preventing
bad software from doing bad things on your device; it is just about
giving the user an indication that something fishy is happening (by
accident) that he probably didn't intend to happen.)

Thanks!
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m 917.560.3000
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[maemo-users] 'Locking down' software installation

2007-02-15 Thread Marius Vollmer 
Hi,

we are planning to put some features into the Application Manager that
will make it more restrictive when handling the packages that make up
the operating system itself (as opposed to third party applications).

We would like to get your feedback on these plans, both from the
end-user point of view and from the point of view of package
developers.

In the future, we hope to be able to provide official updates to the
operating system itself via packages, and we need to give the
end-users the confidence that when they intend to install a Nokia
provided operating system update, they actually get what they think
they are getting.

As for the concrete plan:

There is going to be a 'meta' package that represents the whole
operating system.  Updates to the OS are done by updating this meta
package in the Application Manager.  The meta package will have
dependencies on all packages with their exact versions that make up
the official OS releases.  The Application Manager will not allow the
removal of the meta package.

This means that the Application Manager will not allow you to update
individual OS packages (or to install third party applications that
require this), since you would have to remove the meta package for
that.  It is still possible to install additional 'system' packages,
just not to upgrade already installed ones.

A second new feature is that the Application Manager will distinguish
between "trusted sources" and "non-trusted sources" (based on the key
used to sign the corresponding repository).  A package that has
originally been installed from a trusted source will only be allowed
to be updated (or replaced) from a trusted source.  The flash image is
also treated as a trusted source, so you will only be able to update
packages that are pre-installed in the device from trusted sources.

This makes it easier for the user to be sure that he doesn't pick up
unwanted system software updates by accident.

The set of trusted sources will be under control of a power-user: you
can just add some GPG keys to the right place, but there is no UI to
do it.  You can also switch the whole lock-down machinery off by going
to red-pill mode.

So whaddaya think?  Useful?  Too painful?  Too difficult to escape
from?


Some variants that come to mind:

The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' of a package
instead of on "exactly this version'.  That would allow it to control
the update just as much, but would not lock down the configuration of
the device so much.  The motivation for this lock-down of the device
configuration is that Nokia (probably, IANAL) doesn't want to support
any other configuration, and having to 'hack' your system via the
red-pill mode or similar is a good indication that you are now on your
own.

The locked-down upgrade path could support more than one set of
trusted sources down to the granularity of repositories.  This would
allow other parties than Nokia to make use of this feature.  That's
just a smop and might be done.


(And please understand that all this has nothing to do with preventing
bad software from doing bad things on your device; it is just about
giving the user an indication that something fishy is happening (by
accident) that he probably didn't intend to happen.)

Thanks!
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