Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[andre999]

Remco Rijnders a écrit :

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 09:33:44PM +0200, lebarhon wrote:

Le 19/06/2011 10:28, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit :

Nobody said anything against your efforts although I don't see any
reason there (and I haven't seen any discussion in the webteam where
it was decided to do so),

Who the hell are you to dare say I am a liar !


Guys, guys...

Can we tone it down a bit please? I am sure that we all are here to
participate and help Mageia succeed as a distribution and community. To
that end, we should always assume that all parties have a shared
interest in this, even when one acts or talks differently from what
you'd personally would have done.

At the risk of stealing rda's job, have a look at
http://hugs.mageia.org/ :-)

For what it's worth, I did find it useful to read the forum comments on
the topic on this list, even though I did not respond to any of it as it
is one of the few issues I have no outspoken opinion on ;-)

Let's keep it civil, and at the same time refrain from critisizing each
other too much?

Using the royal plural, we thank you all in advance :)

Cheers,

Remco

+1

--
André

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Remco Rijnders]

On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 09:33:44PM +0200, lebarhon wrote:

Le 19/06/2011 10:28, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit :

Nobody said anything against your efforts although I don't see any
reason there (and I haven't seen any discussion in the webteam where
it was decided to do so),

Who the hell are you to dare say I am a liar !


Guys, guys...

Can we tone it down a bit please? I am sure that we all are here to 
participate and help Mageia succeed as a distribution and community. To 
that end, we should always assume that all parties have a shared interest 
in this, even when one acts or talks differently from what you'd 
personally would have done.


At the risk of stealing rda's job, have a look at http://hugs.mageia.org/ 
:-)


For what it's worth, I did find it useful to read the forum comments on 
the topic on this list, even though I did not respond to any of it as it 
is one of the few issues I have no outspoken opinion on ;-)


Let's keep it civil, and at the same time refrain from critisizing each 
other too much?


Using the royal plural, we thank you all in advance :)

Cheers,

Remco


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

Le 19/06/2011 10:28, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit :

Nobody said anything against your efforts although I don't see any
reason there (and I haven't seen any discussion in the webteam where
it was decided to do so),

Who the hell are you to dare say I am a liar !

https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=570 



1 -  roadrunner asked if somebody could cross-post between the forum and 
the ML

2 - Anne posted in this thread and find nothing to say against it
3 - So, I volunteered for that
4 - maat agreed
5 - I suggested a method
6 - maat agreed again
7 - I began what I promised, and you posted behind without saying 
anything against it.


It was not enough to be fully authorized 

  people who read mailing lists are able to
read forums as well - if they don't want to, that's their decision.
They are able to, but they won't because "our team members still sleep 
during nights". These are Anne's own words.

But referring to the issue here I am pretty sure that nobody asked you
to write in HTML nor to transfer the off-topic banter.
Neither that nor the opposite. I never said I will re-write all the text 
nor I will read and sort the posts. Nobody prevented me to do that way. 
I stopped some of the off-topic banger, not each one.


Well, I made a mistake, I was told by misc, it's ok and I don't need a 
parrot repeating for a second layer.
I subscribed to this third Mageia ML at this purpose only and didn't 
read the other posts, so I am going to unsubscribe, this one at least.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Wolfgang Bornath]

2011/6/19 lebarhon :
> Le 18/06/2011 13:19, Michael Scherer a écrit :
>>
>> Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit :
>>
>> 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ?
>>
>> 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml
>> ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I
>> helped install them among others ),
>> can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ?
>>
> It was asked by the webteam, so you have to come yourselves to an agreement.

Nobody said anything against your efforts although I don't see any
reason there (and I haven't seen any discussion in the webteam where
it was decided to do so), people who read mailing lists are able to
read forums as well - if they don't want to, that's their decision.

But referring to the issue here I am pretty sure that nobody asked you
to write in HTML nor to transfer the off-topic banter. I wonder why
this has to be discussed, it's a matter of course.

-- 
wobo

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

Le 18/06/2011 13:19, Michael Scherer a écrit :

Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit :

1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ?

2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml
( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I
helped install them among others ),
can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ?


It was asked by the webteam, so you have to come yourselves to an agreement.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Maarten Vanraes]

Op zaterdag 18 juni 2011 15:59:33 schreef Michael Scherer:
> Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 13:42 +0200, Maarten Vanraes a écrit :
> > Op zaterdag 18 juni 2011 13:35:34 schreef Samuel Verschelde:
> > > Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit :
> > > > Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit :
> > > > 
> > > > 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ?
> > > > 
> > > > 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and
> > > > ml ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself,
> > > > as I helped install them among others ),
> > > > can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ?
> > > 
> > > Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic
> > > messages), but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. By the way,
> > > you didn't ask for this "gateway", but it is, at least a good
> > > intention, and personnally I think it is useful to forward what users
> > > say about it in the forum. You read them, but several people here
> > > recognized they don't want to or can't read the forums.
> > > 
> > > Samuel
> > 
> > i agree, i don't read the forums, i have no problem with people relaying
> > this on this subject, even though i feel that if they want to say
> > something they should talk here...
> > 
> > but, misc, iirc, you said that if someone wanted to capture the forums
> > reactions and take responsibility of being a bridge, they could.
> 
> What I said was "gather feedback for their own group", in the first mail
> of this thread. I guess I was not explicit enough, what would be useful
> is a summary.

ah yes, that would be easier.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Michael Scherer]

Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 13:42 +0200, Maarten Vanraes a écrit :
> Op zaterdag 18 juni 2011 13:35:34 schreef Samuel Verschelde:
> > Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit :
> > > Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit :
> > > 
> > > 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ?
> > > 
> > > 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml
> > > ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I
> > > helped install them among others ),
> > > can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ?
> > 
> > Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic messages),
> > but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. By the way, you didn't ask
> > for this "gateway", but it is, at least a good intention, and personnally
> > I think it is useful to forward what users say about it in the forum. You
> > read them, but several people here recognized they don't want to or can't
> > read the forums.
> > 
> > Samuel
> 
> i agree, i don't read the forums, i have no problem with people relaying this 
> on this subject, even though i feel that if they want to say something they 
> should talk here...
> 
> but, misc, iirc, you said that if someone wanted to capture the forums 
> reactions and take responsibility of being a bridge, they could.

What I said was "gather feedback for their own group", in the first mail
of this thread. I guess I was not explicit enough, what would be useful
is a summary. 

-- 
Michael Scherer

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Michael Scherer]

Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 13:35 +0200, Samuel Verschelde a écrit :
> Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit :
> > Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit :
> > 
> > 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ?
> > 
> > 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml
> > ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I
> > helped install them among others ),
> > can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ?
> 
> Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic messages), 
> but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. 

It was also asked twice by Colin
( https://mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/2011-June/005593.html ,
https://mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/2011-June/005560.html ). 

But I guess I could have been a little bit smoother, sorry about that.
-- 
Michael Scherer

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Maarten Vanraes]

Op zaterdag 18 juni 2011 13:35:34 schreef Samuel Verschelde:
> Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit :
> > Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit :
> > 
> > 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ?
> > 
> > 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml
> > ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I
> > helped install them among others ),
> > can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ?
> 
> Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic messages),
> but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. By the way, you didn't ask
> for this "gateway", but it is, at least a good intention, and personnally
> I think it is useful to forward what users say about it in the forum. You
> read them, but several people here recognized they don't want to or can't
> read the forums.
> 
> Samuel

i agree, i don't read the forums, i have no problem with people relaying this 
on this subject, even though i feel that if they want to say something they 
should talk here...

but, misc, iirc, you said that if someone wanted to capture the forums 
reactions and take responsibility of being a bridge, they could.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Samuel Verschelde]

Le samedi 18 juin 2011 13:19:16, Michael Scherer a écrit :
> Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit :
> 
> 1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ?
> 
> 2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml
> ( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I
> helped install them among others ),
> can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ?

Misc, I agree with the main idea (html and forward only on topic messages), 
but not with the way you say it, a bit sharp. By the way, you didn't ask for 
this "gateway", but it is, at least a good intention, and personnally I think 
it is useful to forward what users say about it in the forum. You read them, 
but several people here recognized they don't want to or can't read the 
forums.

Samuel

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Michael Scherer]

Le samedi 18 juin 2011 à 12:12 +0200, lebarhon a écrit :

1) can you please avoid posting as html to the list ?

2) if you wish to serve as a human gateway really between forum and ml
( which I didn't ask, I am smart enough to read forum by myself, as I
helped install them among others ), 
can you at least be smart and forward only on topic discussion ? 

-- 
Michael Scherer

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

by *keksbaecker 
* » 
Jun 18th, '11, 11:07
I am also just a simple end user and for me it is more important to have 
a stable and running System than having the the latest Desktop 
Environment installed.


Personally I think a new release every nine months would be great but I 
could also imagine a release every year if it is possible to install a 
newer (even it is not the newest) version of e.g. LibreOffice or Pidgin 
using the official Mageia repositories instead of downloading it from 
their Homepage and maybe have to compile myself (I tried once and failed)..

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

  
  
by wobo
» Jun 18th, '11, 00:54

  
magnus wrote:(In the past ELP had a song
  "Lucky man")
  
  
  Most people forget that Lucky Man became worm fodder at the end of
  the song.
  But you can always enter the Zeppelin and take the Stairway to
  Heaven for spiritual healing... 
  
  (...Clementine is now playing ELP's 4-Bridges-Suite)
  

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

  
  
by magnus
» Jun 17th, '11, 20:55

  
isadora wrote:Today i started adding the
  cauldron-repositories, and did a first update to my
  test-Mageia.
  
  
  Today I have done the same job.
  about 20 minutes - good internet connection and ssd 
  
  (In the past ELP had a song "Lucky man")
  
  one package has a missing signature
  
  
isadora wrote:... but you have to be
  familiar with the command-line.
  
  
  I think for Cauldron is the command-line with "urpmi
  --auto-update" the better way for updates
  

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

by *isadora 
* » 
Jun 17th, '11, 20:04
Must admit magnus is right about the difference between "technical" and 
"regular"-users.
Today i started adding the cauldron-repositories, and did a first update 
to my test-Mageia.

The first bunch of packages (about 40) went without a hassle through MCC.
But then MCC stopped functioning, and i had to change to konsole to get 
in the other 600.
Due to a sloppy internet-connection, i had to restart the 
updating-process twice, and in the end i was missing four packages.
I managed to install them all in the end, but you have to be familiar 
with the command-line.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

  
  
by magnus
» Jun 17th, '11, 19:26 I think the whole discussion is dominated by
"technical" users.
I, as a simple user, need a stable, secure system where I can use my
applications.

Gnome 2, 3, 4 ??? KDE 4.6, 4. 7, 5.0 ??? What does it matter.
At the office a must use a system called xp, but for our 10.000
girls and boys it runs stable.
That's it.

I admit, this is a very simple view. 
But for me and a lot of users a very important criterion.
I don`t believe this can provide a "rolling release" (in the
moment).

So I prefer a a reasonable release cycle with enough time for the
development and the qa.
For example, a new release every nine months brings me the new
developments, not just the latest. 
But I can also update my system with a clear conscience and without
great risks.

The technicans can play with cauldron and the latest developments 
  

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

by *wobo 
* » 
Jun 17th, '11, 18:50

Several points jumped through my synapses reading Trio3b's post.

A thought I had many times before: are the users ready for such Linux 
distributions? I do not mean any technical skills, no user is supposed 
to learn how to create scripts and configure things by editing config 
files any more. But I often see that users lack the mindset, the way of 
thinking which is required by administrating your own *nix system. One 
nice example was the KDE switch to 4.x which Trio3b described as fiasco. 
But was this fiasco not really caused by the users demand for "the 
latest" although KDE stated that 4.0 (and a few following versions) were 
not for userland? With the proper mindset users without development 
skills would have stayed away from KDE 4 until it was declared as 
"userland-ready", which was with 4.2 [1]. This is just one example but 
could also be ported to other "fiascos".


As often said, Linux is a system which forces the user to be a sysadmin 
as well - but as a sysadmin you think different than a user does. IMHO 
this is one point which is not communicated enough to the user. Of 
course, marketing would have a fit seeing the question "Are you ready to 
be a sysadmin?" all over the portal site of our Linux distribution. But 
isn't this really the question here when we talk about backports, 
updates, rolling releases and all the rest? These are expressions and 
tasks for a sysadmin, not a user.


In business we do have IT departments and sysadmins who care for those 
things - your average Dilbert in his cubicle is not supposed to care for 
updates. But for the user at home we see this dual personality with the 
different mindsets to be a given fact. Is that so?


As you can see, I did not aim at a certain conclusion here, I just let 
my thoughts roam free (could well be an exposé for a editor's article).


[1] Of course, for the real "fiasco" we have to blame a certain 
distribution as well which could not wait to be "the first to offer the 
new KDE!" and thus caused other distributions to follow.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

by *Trio3b 
* » 
Jun 17th, '11, 17:55
Must preface this reply by saying I am not a coder, developer, packager. 
Just an end user. Long time MDV user (ver. 10.0). I have tried almost 
every distro out there for fun but on my main desktop I use MDV 
2008.1KDE3.5.x and have stuck with it b/c it is used for business.


I have been tinkering with PCLOS for the past two years. It is very easy 
to succumb to the "grass is greener" mindset and I too have fallen into 
that trap with PCLOS. It really is a fine distro (originally and to some 
extent still based on MDV) but have come to the conclusion that for fun, 
upgrading/Updating is fine, but for day to day business use it is not 
really an option.


I understand that Mageia has little or no control over certain elements 
of the IT landscape.Witness KDE fiasco with distro forums full of 
problems, breaks, memory leaks, Plasma configuration problems. I have 
experienced that with PCLOS being a rolling distro so I have NOT 
migrated to it for business as of yet.


I believe that a great deal of credibility can be given to opensource if 
it can be seen to be stable and useable for long periods of time in the 
business community. I haven't a clue about the technical requirements in 
determining a release schedule but can speak from a users standpoint and 
that is many small businesses such as myself CAN NOT employ technology 
people. I really enjoy installing and configuring linux OS on various 
hardware but I have to be realistic and stand firm in the belief that if 
one of my office crew is faced with a blank screen (as has happened with 
recent PCLOS2011.6 test release), then the fun of "fixing" it must take 
a back seat to getting on with work.


It is mentioned that several releases can be maintained at the same 
time. Can't a long term stable release be made to sync up with new 
advances every couple years, with the long term user UNDERSTANDING that 
a major reinstall will be necessary at the end of that 2-3 yr . THAT IS 
INFINITELY preferable to an upgrade that breaks something.


Speaking of planning, when you KNOW you have to upgrade you will have 
your work flow and backups planned. An upgrade that breaks a system 
disrupts workflow and even if you have data backed up it destroys 
confidence in the ability of the software to support workflow.


Workflow disruption is an enemy to running a business and constant KDE4 
upgrades have kept me from leaving KDE3.5.x


Hope this helps some devs

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[magnus]

2011/6/16 lebarhon 

> It would be useful if there were a nice user friendly way to upgrade
> Blender when it is backported. Something to let ordinary users know a newer
> version is available and a simple click to upgrade it.
>

Look to Mageia App DB (in testing)
There is growing a good interface.

http://88.191.121.20/madb/mageia/index.php/rpm/list/distrelease/2/application/0/arch/2/source/0/listtype/updates_testing/page/1
The link shows the update soon coming.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

Le 16/06/2011 19:57, lebarhon a écrit :
 by *pmithrandir 
* 
» Jun 13th, '11, 20:21

On my side, I think mageia should do a "mix" of others idea.

I would say :
- A release every year.
- During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, 
chrome, libreoffice...)
- During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if 
there is some instant success for a new software.


Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain 
for 4 years.


So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode :
- The LTS
- The common release
- The cauldron.

With that kind of stuff, you should have no more than one release for 
public at a time, and just one LTS.
If you update main software(we could define a list of no more than 20 
software) people who are crasy about new function, or developper who 
need tham to develop new stuff would be happy.


BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia 
should have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or 
maybe another forum.
It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes 
to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic 
on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to 
know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others 
distributions.
by *claire 
* 
» Jun 16th, '11, 14:27


pmithrandir wrote:On my side, I think mageia should do a "mix" of
others idea.

I would say :
- A release every year.
- During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox,
chrome, libreoffice...)
- During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or
if there is some instant success for a new software.

Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be
maintain for 4 years.

So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode :
- The LTS
- The common release
- The cauldron.



I completely agree with this. There is no real need to rush releases 
as long as new versions are easily available. I know backports repo is 
available but its not very user friendly. As an example, the newer 
versions of Openshot video editor have a very nice feature of being 
able to do animated titles. To be able to use them you need Blender 
2.5. Whilst Mageia includes Openshot 1.3.1 (which errors with missing 
plugins btw) which at time of writing is current it still has Blender 
2.49b.


It would be useful if there were a nice user friendly way to upgrade 
Blender when it is backported. Something to let ordinary users know a 
newer version is available and a simple click to upgrade it.


LTS releases in Ubuntu IMHO are a great idea and one which would add 
value to mageia as a potential server/business OS where stability over 
time is crucial.


I dont think Joe Bloggs really cares about a 6 monthly distribution 
upgrade, only that new versions of the software they use are easily 
obtainable in the mean time and won't break the distribution upgrade 
when it comes around.
by *roadrunner 
* » 
Jun 16th, '11, 15:35


   claire wrote:

   pmithrandir wrote:I dont think Joe Bloggs really cares about a 6
   monthly distribution upgrade, only that new versions of the
   software they use are easily obtainable in the mean time and
   won't break the distribution upgrade when it comes around.

Speaking as a typical "Joe Bloggs", all I'm interested in is keeping my 
applications up to date with the occasional distribution upgrade. I'm 
not interested in regular release cycles because I feel that this leads 
to "rush-jobs", which in turn, leads to bugs galore. I'm more interested 
in a solid reliable distribution upgrade on the "it'll be ready when 
it's ready" basis.


.\\artin
- Mageia 1 32-bit - KDE SC 4.6.3 -
- AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ CPU -
- 4Gb RAM - nVidia 8500GT GPU -

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

 by *pmithrandir 
* » 
Jun 13th, '11, 20:21

On my side, I think mageia should do a "mix" of others idea.

I would say :
- A release every year.
- During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, 
chrome, libreoffice...)
- During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if 
there is some instant success for a new software.


Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain 
for 4 years.


So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode :
- The LTS
- The common release
- The cauldron.

With that kind of stuff, you should have no more than one release for 
public at a time, and just one LTS.
If you update main software(we could define a list of no more than 20 
software) people who are crasy about new function, or developper who 
need tham to develop new stuff would be happy.


BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should 
have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe 
another forum.
It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes 
to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on 
a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know 
what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions.
by *claire 
* » 
Jun 16th, '11, 14:27


   pmithrandir wrote:On my side, I think mageia should do a "mix" of
   others idea.

   I would say :
   - A release every year.
   - During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox,
   chrome, libreoffice...)
   - During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or
   if there is some instant success for a new software.

   Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain
   for 4 years.

   So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode :
   - The LTS
   - The common release
   - The cauldron.



I completely agree with this. There is no real need to rush releases as 
long as new versions are easily available. I know backports repo is 
available but its not very user friendly. As an example, the newer 
versions of Openshot video editor have a very nice feature of being able 
to do animated titles. To be able to use them you need Blender 2.5. 
Whilst Mageia includes Openshot 1.3.1 (which errors with missing plugins 
btw) which at time of writing is current it still has Blender 2.49b.


It would be useful if there were a nice user friendly way to upgrade 
Blender when it is backported. Something to let ordinary users know a 
newer version is available and a simple click to upgrade it.


LTS releases in Ubuntu IMHO are a great idea and one which would add 
value to mageia as a potential server/business OS where stability over 
time is crucial.


I dont think Joe Bloggs really cares about a 6 monthly distribution 
upgrade, only that new versions of the software they use are easily 
obtainable in the mean time and won't break the distribution upgrade 
when it comes around.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

by *pmithrandir 
* » 
Jun 13th, '11, 20:21

On my side, I think mageia should do a "mix" of others idea.

I would say :
- A release every year.
- During this year, a way to update some popular stuff (firefox, chrome, 
libreoffice...)
- During this year also a way to add some new package if needed or if 
there is some instant success for a new software.


Every 3 years, the release is LTS and that mean it would be maintain for 
4 years.


So at the same time, mageia would be in 3 mode :
- The LTS
- The common release
- The cauldron.

With that kind of stuff, you should have no more than one release for 
public at a time, and just one LTS.
If you update main software(we could define a list of no more than 20 
software) people who are crasy about new function, or developper who 
need tham to develop new stuff would be happy.


BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated and that mageia should 
have a special section in this forum for these discussion, or maybe 
another forum.
It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes to 
follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic on a 
forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to know 
what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others distributions.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

  
  
by dave
» Jun 14th, '11, 22:32
One release every year with the related updated
  (don't wait one year for have ad updated software) is better. The
  best could be an half-rolling like chakra but this option isn't in
  the proposals 


  

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Wolfgang Bornath]

2011/6/14 Margot :
>
> Forums aren't exactly 'modern' - they're just a BBS with added
> graphics.

You put the whole discussion into the perspective it deserves!
Thx for making my day!

-- 
wobo

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Maarten Vanraes]

Op dinsdag 14 juni 2011 22:35:21 schreef Margot:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:57:03 +0200
> 
> Maarten Vanraes  wrote:
> > Op dinsdag 14 juni 2011 16:22:42 schreef Lee Forest:
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Android mail does that by default. But that just proves my
> > > other point. Half the time these replies complaining about top
> > > posting, lazyness, or 'netiquette' are being shot back instead
> > > of useful respones. In a forum this is much less of a problem.
> > > Most forums are only setup to send just your own reply to the
> > > topic, and quoting a specific post instead of the whole thread.
> > > Thus not letting the user quote that much at a time by default.
> > > Less redundancy by design, and we can move past the
> > > 'netiquette' complaints and focus on the topics more. And in
> > > the process actually modernize this communication system in a
> > > way that moves AWAY from mailboxes bombed with redundancy.
> > > Don't count on the users to use 'netiquette' because its been
> > > long proven that 'common sense is not all that common', and its
> > > by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use it. Because it
> > > will always be a problem with some new users who are new to
> > > mailing lists.
> > 
> > I never visit any of the forums.
> > 
> > the problem with forums is:
> >  - no textonly, so too much junk like html, colors, fonts and
> > 
> > whatnot: this means emphasis on appearance and not on content.
> > 
> >  - there are more than one forums in all kinds of languages
> > 
> > so you see, there's people who like forums and people who like ML
> > and it's one of the holy wars like the vi vs emacs one, just like
> > wobo said.
> > 
> > this is completely open, everyone is allowed to say their saying,
> > there are only a few rules.
> > 
> > i mean, if you _DO_ want to say your opinion, i think it's only
> > normal to make an effort for it. if you can't make the effort,
> > then perhaps it's not as high priority to yourself as you would
> > like to believe.
> > 
> > and lastly, i am not fond of your wording choice: "modernizing" ?
> > makes me feel like an old dinosaur...
> 
> Forums aren't exactly 'modern' - they're just a BBS with added
> graphics.

lol +1

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Margot]

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:57:03 +0200
Maarten Vanraes  wrote:

> Op dinsdag 14 juni 2011 16:22:42 schreef Lee Forest:
> [...]
> > Android mail does that by default. But that just proves my
> > other point. Half the time these replies complaining about top
> > posting, lazyness, or 'netiquette' are being shot back instead
> > of useful respones. In a forum this is much less of a problem.
> > Most forums are only setup to send just your own reply to the
> > topic, and quoting a specific post instead of the whole thread.
> > Thus not letting the user quote that much at a time by default.
> > Less redundancy by design, and we can move past the
> > 'netiquette' complaints and focus on the topics more. And in
> > the process actually modernize this communication system in a
> > way that moves AWAY from mailboxes bombed with redundancy.
> > Don't count on the users to use 'netiquette' because its been
> > long proven that 'common sense is not all that common', and its
> > by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use it. Because it
> > will always be a problem with some new users who are new to
> > mailing lists.
> 
> I never visit any of the forums.
> 
> the problem with forums is:
>  - no textonly, so too much junk like html, colors, fonts and
> whatnot: this means emphasis on appearance and not on content.
>  - there are more than one forums in all kinds of languages
> 
> so you see, there's people who like forums and people who like ML
> and it's one of the holy wars like the vi vs emacs one, just like
> wobo said.
> 
> this is completely open, everyone is allowed to say their saying,
> there are only a few rules.
> 
> i mean, if you _DO_ want to say your opinion, i think it's only
> normal to make an effort for it. if you can't make the effort,
> then perhaps it's not as high priority to yourself as you would
> like to believe.
> 
> and lastly, i am not fond of your wording choice: "modernizing" ?
> makes me feel like an old dinosaur...

Forums aren't exactly 'modern' - they're just a BBS with added
graphics.

-- 
Margot
~~ 
**Otford Ducks Computers**
We teach, you learn...
...and, if you don't do your homework, we set the cat on you!
~~

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Maarten Vanraes]

Op dinsdag 14 juni 2011 16:22:42 schreef Lee Forest:
[...]
> Android mail does that by default. But that just proves my other point.
> Half the time these replies complaining about top posting, lazyness, or
> 'netiquette' are being shot back instead of useful respones. In a forum
> this is much less of a problem. Most forums are only setup to send just
> your own reply to the topic, and quoting a specific post instead of the
> whole thread. Thus not letting the user quote that much at a time by
> default. Less redundancy by design, and we can move past the
> 'netiquette' complaints and focus on the topics more. And in the process
> actually modernize this communication system in a way that moves AWAY
> from mailboxes bombed with redundancy. Don't count on the users to use
> 'netiquette' because its been long proven that 'common sense is not all
> that common', and its by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use
> it. Because it will always be a problem with some new users who are new
> to mailing lists.

I never visit any of the forums.

the problem with forums is:
 - no textonly, so too much junk like html, colors, fonts and whatnot: this 
means emphasis on appearance and not on content.
 - there are more than one forums in all kinds of languages

so you see, there's people who like forums and people who like ML and it's one 
of the holy wars like the vi vs emacs one, just like wobo said.

this is completely open, everyone is allowed to say their saying, there are 
only a few rules.

i mean, if you _DO_ want to say your opinion, i think it's only normal to make 
an effort for it. if you can't make the effort, then perhaps it's not as high 
priority to yourself as you would like to believe.

and lastly, i am not fond of your wording choice: "modernizing" ? makes me 
feel like an old dinosaur...

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Colin Guthrie]

'Twas brillig, and Lee Forest at 14/06/11 13:52 did gyre and gimble:
> mailing list might work best for a couple people but is it worth
> inconveniencing the rest of the word because you are a die hard mailing
> list user

I've posted the arguments before and I'll do it again, despite this
thread going dangerously off topic.

I find the use of forums to be a great drawback to project engagement as
an upstream developer. I have to read communities from several updateam
projects and I get as annoyed about forums as I do about people posting
in HTML on mailing lists.

Forums are disjoint and individually styled. When you are jumping from
one project to another to get through your daily grind of information,
it is exceptionally annoying to have to adjust your eyes and the way you
operate to cope with the styles, features, login system etc. of each
individual forums (forii, forum?).

I want the information from these 30 or so projects I'm involved in to
be available to me in one place, not have a series of inconvenient
bookmarks and a procedure of checking one, then the next then the one
after that until I've done the rounds (and of course repeating that
procedure throughout the day if I want to see any new topics!). It's
much less time consuming to have a single UI and central store of
information in which I can look.

Perhaps if all the forums could be aggregated into one handy feed per
project and stripped of all their styling I could agree, but then that
would just be reinventing mailing lists!

It's all too easy to get lured by the guise of a forum-based system when
you only follow a couple of projects, but please consider those of us
who have several projects to follow.



As for the server traffic argument, this is what NNTP is for and GMane
does an excellent service of collecting and aggregating mailing list
from most open source projects. When you look at the size of their feeds
you'll realise just how many projects are run on mailing lists.


Just like IRC, the fresh faced and full of wonder souls (not to mention
many other types of souls too, I'm just picking on one demographic that
suggests it more often than others!) often comment about how some more
"modern" system is more appropriate for interaction. I don't dispute the
lower barrier of entry for forums, and they can be a good way to engage
with a less technical audience, but I will never be able to get involved
in them (except when people specifically ask me to comment on topics) as
it's just far too much of an intrusion in my daily grind.


Build a nice forum to mail gateway (and vice versa) and it would likely
please everyone. Technology can solve this!

I won't comment again on this topic (at least on this thread!).

Col




-- 

Colin Guthrie
mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie
http://colin.guthr.ie/

Day Job:
  Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/]
Open Source:
  Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/]
  PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/]
  Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Frank Griffin]

On 06/14/2011 10:22 AM, Lee Forest wrote:

On 06/14/2011 10:03 AM, Frank Griffin wrote:

That's not caused by an ML, it's caused by people being lazy and
quoting the entire message to which they're replying, which is a
breach of netiquette.  As is top-posting :-)

Android mail does that by default.

So does Thunderbird.  That's no reason to not prune the quote.


But that just proves my other point.
Half the time these replies complaining about top posting, lazyness, or
'netiquette' are being shot back instead of useful respones.


Well, aside from the fact that nobody here "owes" you a reply, and that 
you're lucky to get one at all if you abuse the rules of the ML, forums 
use considerably more system resource than text-based MLs as regards 
footprint of the servers and clients and bandwidth.  
Unnecessarily-quoted text is only a resource problem to archiving 
services, and if you're not one you don't get to complain.


You don't have to receive emails to be registered on most MLs.  You can 
register, which allows you to post to the ML, and opt to receive no mail 
from the list, then use the archives to read what you want.



Don't count on the users to use
'netiquette' because its been long proven that 'common sense is not all
that common', and its by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use
it. Because it will always be a problem with some new users who are new
to mailing lists.


Nobody here is "counting" on anything.  People who don't bother to 
follow netiquette will generally just be ignored after the first few 
violations, which doesn't bother the rest of us a bit.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Lee Forest]

On 06/14/2011 10:03 AM, Frank Griffin wrote:
> On 06/14/2011 09:38 AM, Lee Forest wrote:
>>
>> And keeping one golden rule of software development in mind, don't
>> let your system do redundant tasks. Look how many times a
>> conversation is repeated throughout its life time in a mailing list.
>> Thats alot of redundant data using up server traffic.
>>
> That's not caused by an ML, it's caused by people being lazy and
> quoting the entire message to which they're replying, which is a
> breach of netiquette.  As is top-posting :-)
Android mail does that by default. But that just proves my other point.
Half the time these replies complaining about top posting, lazyness, or
'netiquette' are being shot back instead of useful respones. In a forum
this is much less of a problem. Most forums are only setup to send just
your own reply to the topic, and quoting a specific post instead of the
whole thread. Thus not letting the user quote that much at a time by
default. Less redundancy by design, and we can move past the
'netiquette' complaints and focus on the topics more. And in the process
actually modernize this communication system in a way that moves AWAY
from mailboxes bombed with redundancy. Don't count on the users to use
'netiquette' because its been long proven that 'common sense is not all
that common', and its by definition 'insane' to expect everyone to use
it. Because it will always be a problem with some new users who are new
to mailing lists.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Romain d'Alverny]

On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 15:38, Lee Forest  wrote:
> And keeping one golden rule of software development in mind, don't let your
> system do redundant tasks.

As golden as the need to not to have redundancy: it depends.
Redundancy can be very, very appreciated. But not always in a
discussion (be it with mail or web-based forum) where appropriately
quoting is very, very appreciated too. :-)

> What about being able to [...]

Yes, that could be nice, only, Mageia is not about building first an
improved mail/forum gateway, but about building first an improved
operating system. You can't blame people for focusing on this and
doing it with tools they are productive with already.

Migrating everyone to forums is, here, not acceptable. Dismissing
others from each side as well. Migrating everyone to ml was not even
considered (or we wouldn't have planned to have forums, or we would
have let them to local groups only).

That this question gets discussed on and on is a (good) sign that
people are motivated to participate. But are you motivated enough to
cross the bridge, to change your habits and to meet the people where
they gather to build this thing, and to instill improvements? The
bridge is wide open and there's so much to built it further. Only,
it's not necessarily what you expect it to be, at first.

There have been several suggestions as to build a forum/mail gateway,
only without the means to actually implement it within our
infrastructure. For what is existing, tux99 used to provide a 3rd
place showcase gateway in the past but I am not sure what its future
status will be; or you have
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.mageia.devel or
http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.linux.mageia.devel or we could consider
another gateway if it's worth it (Google groups? other?) and if
there's someone to lend a hand to... no, to join sysadmin team for
that (and other things).

Speaking of focus, this thread is about the release cycle. Now you are
welcome to open a bug http://bugs.mageia.org/ in the Websites,
forums.mageia.org section I guess; if you think it's worth it to
dig/document this ml/forum thing further (and even better, if you have
a better workable solution at hand). But please let this thread on
topic.

Romain

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Frank Griffin]

On 06/14/2011 09:38 AM, Lee Forest wrote:


And keeping one golden rule of software development in mind, don't let 
your system do redundant tasks. Look how many times a conversation is 
repeated throughout its life time in a mailing list. Thats alot of 
redundant data using up server traffic.


That's not caused by an ML, it's caused by people being lazy and quoting 
the entire message to which they're replying, which is a breach of 
netiquette.  As is top-posting :-)

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Lee Forest]

And keeping one golden rule of software development in mind, don't let your
system do redundant tasks. Look how many times a conversation is repeated
throughout its life time in a mailing list. Thats alot of redundant data
using up server traffic. In a forum everything is more central. A lot less
redundancy. and you can still get topic replies. What about being able to
reply to the notification email to reply to the thread? That would be a
start on a compromise. Nice feature for a modern forum/mailing system. Maybe
also be able to subscribe  to forum catagories. This would allow those who
wish for emails to still use mail.
On Jun 14, 2011 9:16 AM, "Frank Griffin"  wrote:
> On 06/14/2011 09:07 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote:
>> So, IMHO this discussion is as meaningless as the famous/infamous vi
>> vs emacs discussions of way back when.
>
> +1
>
> Not to mention that if you don't like getting emails, you can always
> simply use the archives to find what interests you.
>

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Bruno Cornec]

Lee Forest said on Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 08:52:50AM -0400:

> Only a couple people so far are hooked on mailing
> lists. 

Yes, all the ones who really work on making the distro ! And I can't take
that opportunity to thank them :-)

My self +1 for ML, -1 for forums.

Bruno.
-- 
Open Source & Linux Profession Lead EMEA   / http://opensource.hp.com
HP/Intel/Red Hat Open Source Solutions Initiative  / http://www.hpintelco.net
http://www.HyPer-Linux.org  http://mondorescue.org http://project-builder.org
La musique ancienne?  http://www.musique-ancienne.org http://www.medieval.org

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Frank Griffin]

On 06/14/2011 09:07 AM, Wolfgang Bornath wrote:

So, IMHO this discussion is as meaningless as the famous/infamous vi
vs emacs discussions of way back when.


+1

Not to mention that if you don't like getting emails, you can always 
simply use the archives to find what interests you.

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Wolfgang Bornath]

I've been around when there were no forums, just news groups and
mailing lists. And I have been posting in forums since they were
invented (even in early CompuServe times). What I found out over all
these years:

1. All these reasons which have been posted here and in previous
threads since the beginning of Mageia communication are the very same
reasons (in favor and against both platforms) which have been posted
10 years ago and zillions of times in between - nothing has changed
one little bit on either side.

2. If you handle both platforms right there is no difference at all
between them (except that mailing lists are easier to handle in a
text-only environment, which is quite rare these days)

So, IMHO this discussion is as meaningless as the famous/infamous vi
vs emacs discussions of way back when.

-- 
wobo

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Lee Forest]

I agree. Mailing lists are messy and hard to follow. And sometimes the only
response you get is about how you sent the message wrong. I bet more people
would use the forums. Only a couple people so far are hooked on mailing
lists. Im seeing more and more comments coming in about this. forums would
at least would allow people to follow one version of the discussion instead
of everyone posting a copy with their reply. And its easier to review past
messages without sorting through all your emails that practically spam your
box. People can subscribe to the topics they actually want, and browse the
messages at their leisure. mailing list might work best for a couple people
but is it worth inconveniencing the rest of the word because you are a die
hard mailing list user?
On Jun 14, 2011 6:42 AM, "lebarhon"  wrote:
> by *roadrunner
> * »
> Jun 13th, '11, 22:24
>
> pmithrandir wrote:BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated
> and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for
> these discussion, or maybe another forum.
> It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes
> to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic
> on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to
> know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others
> distributions.
>
> Well said, I couldn't have put it better mysef and I agree 100%
>
> .\\artin

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[Colin Guthrie]

'Twas brillig, and lebarhon at 14/06/11 11:42 did gyre and gimble:
> by *roadrunner
> * »
> Jun 13th, '11, 22:24
> 
> pmithrandir wrote:BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated
> and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for
> these discussion, or maybe another forum.
> It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes
> to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic
> on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to
> know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others
> distributions.
> 
> Well said, I couldn't have put it better mysef and I agree 100%

This email is not about release cycles and peoples opinions of the
options presented for discussion.

While it's maybe a valid feeling that may require it's own discussion
(I've already explained why I believe the exact opposite and that the
use of forums for projects would seriously limit my ability to
participate), it's not part of this discussion per se.

Col


-- 

Colin Guthrie
mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie
http://colin.guthr.ie/

Day Job:
  Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/]
Open Source:
  Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/]
  PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/]
  Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

by *roadrunner 
* » 
Jun 13th, '11, 22:24


   pmithrandir wrote:BTW : I think mailing list are totally outdated
   and that mageia should have a special section in this forum for
   these discussion, or maybe another forum.
   It's totally impossible for people who want to participate sometimes
   to follow you emails everydays. It's much faster to read some topic
   on a forum than dozens emails. And your final user should be able to
   know what happen easily. It would be a big + in front of others
   distributions.

Well said, I couldn't have put it better mysef and I agree 100%

.\\artin

Re: [Mageia-dev] Release cycles proposals, and discussion - messages from the forum

[lebarhon]

by *corbintech 
* » 
Jun 13th, '11, 22:12
I quit the ML because I was not doing it right (never used a list like 
that before).


So if I may, I will post here what somebody responded to me and write my 
response here.


   complete rolling release would put a QA strain on each of the
   levels. think
   about it, it's not only the current package being updated, but also the
   combinations with other packages. (AND also all the long time supported
   versions)

   This would mean that for each package being release, it'll have to
   work with
   the current set of other packages, but also with the packages you'll
   be doing
   next.

   if you have this constant level of QA, you need alot of resources
   (which we
   don't have in QA), and as an extra result, you'll not have the same
   level of
   QA you could have, when you're doing a release.

   it's much easier (as devs) to just choose a subset of packages, and
   test those
   out.

   if you have X QA-devs, and you have 1 subset of versions of
   packages, you can
   test alot more than if you have several versions of several packages
   that need
   to work all with each other in almost any combinations...

   not to mention that you need an extra step with QA to put a "group" of
   packages from one level to the next...

   sorry, but with our current resources, i vote no. i want current
   resources to
   be used much more efficiently than with a rolling release.



Why do we keep acting like there is no other way to pool resources? I 
have never helped develop in any way, teach me something and I'll lend a 
hand... Others may do the same.. ASK!


QA comes from testing... Test... Test... And test more... To make sure 
what you have works and works well. Let's change up my idea a bit and 
satisfy everyone... Let's compromise...


How about Cooker (or whatever you call) rolls to rolling (can be very 
stable???!!!) with release cycle releases based on a snapshot of either 
of the rolling models and supported for X amount of time? This could 
make those whom want a rolling release model happy and those whom want a 
release cycle.


Would this be hard? I don't really think so as development is already 
based on a rolling model (cooker or whatever), all that will have to be 
done is packages roll down the line. I seen in the start of all these 
talks you wanted to support 3 structures of systems... Here they are!


What about this? Get the community involved!