Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 28 March 2011 02:15, Ahmad Samir wrote: >>> And do you have any objective compelling reason to include qt3-devel, >>> other than an arbitrary reason based on personal preferences ? >> >> For the same reason that you added Qt3: LSB >> >> If we want to be LSB compliant, it seems reasonable to provide the tools >> to build LSB-compliant packages. >> >> And also for qcad. >> >> If you think Qt3 is not maintained and should not be supported, then >> just drop the package... >> I see no reason for having half of the package. >> >> -- >> Olivier Blin - blino >> > > IIRC, stewbintn said qt3 dep will/is planned to be dropped from LSB upstream. > > And just so that I make myself clearer, from my POV this thread is not > about adding, half-adding or half-removing or throwing qt3-devel out > the window... IMHO this is about whether or not to add Trinity to the > Mageia repos, that's the more important issue. Given how much a sticky > situation mdv was in with KDE4 in main and KDE3 in contrib that > doesn't look like an ideal situation for Mageia (IMHO). > > (Also in one of the posts in this thread, someone said Trinity is > planning port KDE3 apps to Qt4, and here's me thinking that the > porting-of-kde3-apps-to-Qt4 has already happened in a project called > KDE4 that made its first initial release on the 11th of January 2008, > about 3 years ago, c.f. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE_Software_Compilation_4) Although I would agree to have qt3-devel, I do remember the upgrade disaster due to kde3 being in contribs. It was there due to good intentions from some contributors but it resulted in errors while performing network upgrade ending in half upgrades of gtk+/perl/ which broke our tools (among them rpmdrake). We do have to consider our past experience...
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 27 March 2011 23:02, Olivier Blin wrote: > nicolas vigier writes: > >> And do you have any objective compelling reason to include qt3-devel, >> other than an arbitrary reason based on personal preferences ? > > For the same reason that you added Qt3: LSB > > If we want to be LSB compliant, it seems reasonable to provide the tools > to build LSB-compliant packages. > > And also for qcad. > > If you think Qt3 is not maintained and should not be supported, then > just drop the package... > I see no reason for having half of the package. > > -- > Olivier Blin - blino > IIRC, stewbintn said qt3 dep will/is planned to be dropped from LSB upstream. And just so that I make myself clearer, from my POV this thread is not about adding, half-adding or half-removing or throwing qt3-devel out the window... IMHO this is about whether or not to add Trinity to the Mageia repos, that's the more important issue. Given how much a sticky situation mdv was in with KDE4 in main and KDE3 in contrib that doesn't look like an ideal situation for Mageia (IMHO). (Also in one of the posts in this thread, someone said Trinity is planning port KDE3 apps to Qt4, and here's me thinking that the porting-of-kde3-apps-to-Qt4 has already happened in a project called KDE4 that made its first initial release on the 11th of January 2008, about 3 years ago, c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE_Software_Compilation_4) -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
nicolas vigier writes: > And do you have any objective compelling reason to include qt3-devel, > other than an arbitrary reason based on personal preferences ? For the same reason that you added Qt3: LSB If we want to be LSB compliant, it seems reasonable to provide the tools to build LSB-compliant packages. And also for qcad. If you think Qt3 is not maintained and should not be supported, then just drop the package... I see no reason for having half of the package. -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Romain d'Alverny a écrit : On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:38, Tux99 wrote: Also is there an official rule somewhere that specifies: "because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository" or is this simply an arbitrary rule that restricts freedoms of users and other packagers? Nothing is always written down on paper. Saying it's arbitrary because it comes out of packagers' experience is a tad extreme. Saying that "restricts freedoms of users" is clearly excessive here. Again, it's not as if it was a closed product: users can open the box and package stuff too (ah yes, it's not dead obvious to do so, but that's something we can aim to improve in the coming years). What will come out of Mageia, in June, won't satisfy everyone. Choices will have been done. A choice is arbitrary, always. It always says no to something. Implying that this would "restrict freedoms of users" would be laughable at best, offensive at worst, especially since this is an open source project. That's not to say that people will just have to help themselves, we expect to make something cool and useful, but we're not going to say "yes!" to everything and everyone either. In the early days a 'contrib' repo was suggested for not officially supported packages (I was for that idea too), this would be a good situation where a 'contrib' repo would solve this matter for everyone. Please open a bug for that if you think it's worth discussing it again. Romain Isn't there a repo just for testing packages ? (Maybe "people" or "software" ?) Maybe if they use that they'll feel a little less "demotivated". And maybe once their project is stable, qt3-devel could be considered just for building their package, until they switch to qt4 ? Just some ideas ... -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 02:10:54PM +0100, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: Robert Xu wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 13:53 > > > Hi, > > > > Based on all this conversation here, it is clear that we have gotten > > off topic. > > My suggestion would be to make a separate repository for Trinity. > > Beware, we also updated Qt to version 3.3.8c (just a few minor > > changes, no idea if bugs remain) while we finish the porting to Qt4. > > Thanks Robert, I might take up your offer of a repo on the Trinity servers > if I decide to continue to build Trinty packages for Mageia. But right now > I'm a bit demotivated to continue with this and in fact to continue with > Mageia at all. > > Maybe I will rather help you to make some great Trinity packages for > Redhat/Centos since I'm also a Redhat/Centos user, but right now I have to > first make up my mind. > > -- > Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/ You’re quite quick to demotivate yourself. I waited nearly 2 years to have my window manager inside my distribution, because it relies on a specific compile option on a much used package (cairo). During all that time, I _listened_ to people, and though it was kinda heartbraking to admit they were right, I had to understand the reason behind this. Recently, I finally decided to get my hands dirty and to make cairo available for every package, while at the same time providing a mean to get the other cairo available for my package. It seems you do not want to listen to other people concerns, that’s bad, because that prevents you to find a solution that will make everyone happy. Now, people suggested you to do some things, and provide a way to have what you want, please consider it, you’ll understand that people are not against having qt3-devel if there is really such a need, and that TDE can be included once it has been proven to not wreck havok in the distribution (I know these last words are hard to read, because I was in the same situation, but that concern is real). Reassure people, by providing builds in a separate place so that people can test having TDE and KDE, perhaps help you fix issues ! I wish you good luck for this, this is not an easy task, but please change your way of doing things, it’s not by shouting louder than the others that you will get something (you nearly replied to everyone in this thread), people don’t want words, people want acts. You have the freedom to act, take this opportunity :-) my 2 cents -- Rémy CLOUARD () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments pgpbaOEIbmZ1A.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op vrijdag 25 maart 2011 10:39:28 schreef Tux99: > Quote: xi wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:32 > > > As always, please don't drop too fast the packages that you find > > useless. There are still some users like me who may use QT3. > > > > I still use some "not so common" applications (eg tools for electronic) > > > > which needs QT3 and it is always much more convenient to simply do a > > "urpmi libqt3-devel" than downloading and compiling qt3 ... especially > > > > if libqt3 is already included in Mageia ! > > Exactly my point, thanks Xavier. > > This is about not restricting other people's freedoms. iirc, it was mentioned somewhere that qt3 (without devel) was only submitted to satisfy the lsb requirements (which are ridiculously unrealisticly outdated imho, but there is talk of upgrading). I read this as: 'we just put it there, but noone even tested it to see if it's actually working', it might as well have been an empty package or not there. i think that during this huge (boring) thread to me, this has been misunderstood a few times. as some people mentioned: - make TDE build and run well locally (because TDE obviously is what you want, and it does give a good test-run on qt3 on almost all parts) - co-install it with KDE4 and make it both run very well - discuss with current maintainers/packagers/your mentor of qt3 how to support/maintain this (i suspect there is no real maintainer, but check the commit logs who worked on it). - after all these steps (quite a bit of work), start committing your stuff and submitting to core/testing - organize a few testers to test it out - move to core/release I don't think anyone disagrees with these steps, if they do, you could have packaging leaders/council decide on this. (IMHO, it would be nice to test this procedure of council decisions, i would love to see this happening) I suspect due to the freeze that this will hit cauldron after mageia release 1 good luck
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op vrijdag 25 maart 2011 12:43:28 schreef Colin Guthrie: > 'Twas brillig, and Tux99 at 25/03/11 11:14 did gyre and gimble: [...] > "Freedom" is in no way restricted. [...] totally off topic here, but: Freedom is always restricted, if there is unrestricted freedom, other people will not be free again to choose what they want. Rules are there to restrict the freedom, so everyone has a bit of freedom...
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
2011/3/25 xi : > Hoyt Duff wrote: >> >> I agree, there is no 'compelling reason' not to offer it. The people >> doing the work just don't want to because enabling it means they have >> to support it. _Since Mageia doesn't need it for anything_, it makes no >> sense to enable it; it consumes scarce resources for no direct >> benefit. You are free to re-compile QT3 and enable it yourself, which >> is what i suggest. > > You are wrong, there are software which need qt3-devel, but they have been > removed from Mageia! > I have just taken a look at Mageia "missing package" list, and QCad will be > removed because it is built against QT3 (quoting: "qcad: stewb - > noimport(started to do this one, but as I understand we'd like to drop Qt3, > so I stopped)") Well, without going into any technical details and only by looking at the basic question, there seem to be: - Some users who are working with old (but still usable and working!) software who are using this with Mandriva, so these users would like to be able to use it in another distribution. - The devels of that other distribution had to decide which software they will import into their new[1] distribution. Given the low ressources in manpower at this point in time they had to decide to leave this or that package out, especially when the import of such a package demands extended support. This means no harm to the users of those packages, they can still use them the way they did until now (with Mandriva in this case). Therefore the argument by those users that they are left out in the rain if this software will not be imported is not valid. Looks to me a valid decision of the devels of the new distribution. [1] Please do not argue that Mageia is a sequel to Mandriva (somebody did that in this thread) because it is not. If Mandriva would have closed shop, then you may have a point in asking for some continouity. But this is not the case. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, xi wrote: > > Hi again, > > You are wrong, there are software which need qt3-devel, but they have been > removed from Mageia! > I have just taken a look at Mageia "missing package" list, and QCad will be > removed because it is built against QT3 (quoting: "qcad: stewb - > noimport(started to do this one, but as I understand we'd like to drop Qt3, > so I stopped)") > > Remember: QCad is a 2D professional drawing tool and it has NO equivalent > on Linux, so removing it is clearly a regression compared to Mandriva. Mandriva is also removing qt3. As well as most distributions. So if QCad developers want their software to be usable on recent distributions, they need to port it to qt4. And it seems some people are working on it, and have it working : http://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php?t=1162&sid=34c9830d18b8abe49c13e31b08496d6f If you want it, you can help making a QCad package using qt4.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Hoyt Duff wrote: On 3/25/11, Tux99 wrote: Quote: yves wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 09:42 Hi, QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated ? You are missing the point. QT3 is already part of Mageia and it wasn't me who added it. All I'm asking is if there is any compelling reason not to enable qt3-devel in the existing qt3 source package that is part of Mageia. If there isn't any COMPELLING reason, then qt3-devel should be reenabled as long as someone wishes it. You're missing their point. I agree, there is no 'compelling reason' not to offer it. The people doing the work just don't want to because enabling it means they have to support it. _Since Mageia doesn't need it for anything_, it makes no sense to enable it; it consumes scarce resources for no direct benefit. You are free to re-compile QT3 and enable it yourself, which is what i suggest. [...] Hi again, You are wrong, there are software which need qt3-devel, but they have been removed from Mageia! I have just taken a look at Mageia "missing package" list, and QCad will be removed because it is built against QT3 (quoting: "qcad: stewb - noimport(started to do this one, but as I understand we'd like to drop Qt3, so I stopped)") Remember: QCad is a 2D professional drawing tool and it has NO equivalent on Linux, so removing it is clearly a regression compared to Mandriva. Sad to see that "you" are stuck at removing as useful packages as qt3-devel. Contrarily to what you wrote, It _is_ still needed (not only for my personal needs) and removing it has side effects because it implies removing software (with no replacement) from the mandriva list ... Please reconsider your choices, Xavier P.S. I use Mandriva and QCad at work.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 25 March 2011 13:27, John Balcaen wrote: > The only problem we faced is that we're not agree about packaging qt3-devel Totally off topic: are you french :-) ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
'Twas brillig, and Tux99 at 25/03/11 13:42 did gyre and gimble: > > > Quote: Colin Guthrie wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 14:36 > >> It was Donald Knuth who said "Premature optimization is the root of >> all >> evil", and the same can be said of "Speculative Packaging" IMO! > > Actually you just made my point here, excluding qt3-devel out of 'neatness' > is quite clearly premature optimization, therefore "the root of all evil" > as you wisely quote... :) "optimization" and "concious decision" are two very different things, but feel free to distort it to make yourself feel better if you like! And I'm not going to get into a debate about semantics here. Such debates are for late nights and a few good whiskies... :p Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Colin Guthrie wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 14:36 > It was Donald Knuth who said "Premature optimization is the root of > all > evil", and the same can be said of "Speculative Packaging" IMO! Actually you just made my point here, excluding qt3-devel out of 'neatness' is quite clearly premature optimization, therefore "the root of all evil" as you wisely quote... :) -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
'Twas brillig, and Tux99 at 25/03/11 12:10 did gyre and gimble: > > > Quote: Colin Guthrie wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:43 > >> "Freedom" is in no way restricted. I see absolutely no problem with >> compiling a qt3 package yourself with the -devel package enabled if >> you >> want to use it. > > But isn't one of the reasons for participating in a community distro, > wanting to share what each of us builds for ourselves? > > And if such sharing is being vetoed preemptively in advance without an > objective reason based on facts but rather based on fears and personal > opinions, isn't that an unnecessary restriction of freedom that doesn't > suit a true community distro? Compare it to sharing an apartment/house with some friends. Do you want the other people to leave their unwashed clothes all over the laundry room, or unwashed dishes piling up in the kitchen? Or would you prefer that everyone works together to keep things neat and tidy? If you take each individual freedom to it's logical extreme, then sharing a house would allow for the messiest person in the world to share space with the tidiest. Each has the right to their own feelings and ways of being, but in reality such a combination simply wouldn't work. There has to be middle ground that is reached. That's the whole point in a community. You cannot expect everyone to automatically agree with your take on things. It's clear that some people do agree with your and some don't. This shouldn't be overly surprising. Personally I'd rather keep things tidy and not enable things unless there is a direct need for it (e.g. a dependency). If and when there is an app that requires qt3 in the official repos, then that is such a dep, but until then, it makes sense to keep things neat, especially when rebuilding qt3 with the devel package (and patching it accordingly it seems) is such a trivial step compared to the relatively massive job of the TDE itself. If TDE is going to be made available in Mageia directly then by all means, qt3 will have to be patched and updated accordingly, but it seems rather pre-emptive to get worried about something that remains to be proven at the current time. Real reasons are better than hypothetical ones. And if I'm honest, you've referred to other peoples opinions continually as "non-objective" while I'm pretty sure all the reasons I've seen on this thread (and my own feelings) are perfectly objective and logical and I find it rather dismissive that someone should belittle others by continually stating they are not. They are not non-objective, you just happen not to agree with them! That's fine, you are perfectly within your rights to disagree, just don't confuse the two. There is a very clear route forward and it's incredibly simple, just rebuild your own QT3. As said above, if/when the whole of TDM goes into Mageia, then the "official" qt3 can be adjusted as it's needed. It was Donald Knuth who said "Premature optimization is the root of all evil", and the same can be said of "Speculative Packaging" IMO! Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Am 25.03.2011 14:06, schrieb Tux99: At this point I don't think there is any chance that TDE ever goes into the Mageia repos, given the attitudes I have faced here. I don't see why. Just let me summarize the whole discussion from my point of view: There are (at least) 2 users how would be happy to have qt3-devel in the mageia repos (to compile software more easy on there local machines). One of them volunteers itself to become the maintainer of this package and asked if there are any concerns about it. Possible concerns are: qt3 is deprecated and they (mageia developer) don't wont to have software build on it in the repos, because they don't want the mageia users to use deprecated software. -> But both users don't ask for having software which builds on it to have in the repos. Right? One possible concern which gets in my mind is: To mess the repos with unsophisticated packages which probably is only used by very few users, which lets the repos grow to much. -> But I don't think there are many of such packages, that this can be become acute. So, IMHO I don't really get the point why it should be a problem if Tux99 agrees to maintain this package. The whole debate about TDE is something different and shouldn't influence this discussion. Regards, Thorsten
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 3/25/11, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: yves wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 09:42 > >> Hi, >> QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? >> So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated >> ? > > You are missing the point. QT3 is already part of Mageia and it wasn't me > who added it. All I'm asking is if there is any compelling reason not to > enable qt3-devel in the existing qt3 > source package that is part of Mageia. > > If there isn't any COMPELLING reason, then qt3-devel should be reenabled as > long as someone wishes it. > You're missing their point. I agree, there is no 'compelling reason' not to offer it. The people doing the work just don't want to because enabling it means they have to support it. Since Mageia doesn't need it for anything, it makes no sense to enable it; it consumes scarce resources for no direct benefit. You are free to re-compile QT3 and enable it yourself, which is what i suggest. But I see your point as well. While Mageia may not need it, legacy apps may. It would seem to make no sense to deliberately break compatibility with legacy apps on purpose. Indeed, one of the strengths of Linux is the ability to support legacy apps. And since qt3-devel is not a stand-alone package and requires a flip of the switch to produce when they are compiling qt3 anyway, it seems only logical to go ahead and produce it too. The people who are responsible for making the final decision have decided not to do it, leaving you with two choices: either re-compile it yourself to your satisfaction or fork Mageia and make the decisions for the forked distro. Again, i suggest you just re-compile QT3 for your personal use and make the -devel.srpm and -devel.rpm available for others to use. You need to move past this issue. -- Hoyt
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Robert Xu wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 13:53 > Hi, > > Based on all this conversation here, it is clear that we have gotten > off topic. > My suggestion would be to make a separate repository for Trinity. > Beware, we also updated Qt to version 3.3.8c (just a few minor > changes, no idea if bugs remain) while we finish the porting to Qt4. Thanks Robert, I might take up your offer of a repo on the Trinity servers if I decide to continue to build Trinty packages for Mageia. But right now I'm a bit demotivated to continue with this and in fact to continue with Mageia at all. Maybe I will rather help you to make some great Trinity packages for Redhat/Centos since I'm also a Redhat/Centos user, but right now I have to first make up my mind. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: John Balcaen wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 13:27 > > As I said earlier in this thread I have of course already rebuilt > > the qt3 > > package on my box and started working on the TDE packages (thanks > > to work > > done by Tim for Mandriva it's far easier for me now). > > > So we can now work on next step ? I said I "started working on the TDE packages", not that I have completed and fully debugged them. Right now I'm quite demotivated to continue with this since I don't see the point given that it won't be included in the repos. Xavier's post about qt3-devel are also being completely ignored and they have nothing to do with TDE, but are at least as valid. > > At this point I don't think there is any chance that TDE ever goes > > into the > > Mageia repos, given the attitudes I have faced here. > > > I don't see why. Maybe because core members of Mageia have explicitly said they are against TDE being included in the Mageia repos earlier in this thread? > We started a new distribution and we made choices, one of them was to > not > have Qt3 apps. Who is "we"? I don't recall any debate about this and even less a consensus being formed in the community. > It's not like we were providing Qt3 & others apps & suddently someone > decides to drop all of them from the distribution... This could be seen > as > arbitrary and unnecessary limitations because suddently you can loose > functionnality, here we started *without* thoses because we decided to > start > like this. Mageia claims to be an upgrade for Mandriva, so yes, this is packages being dropped and loss of functionality for existing users, see also Xavier's posts. John, please don't get me wrong you and Blino have been some of the few voices of reason in this thread and I appreciate that. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Hi, Based on all this conversation here, it is clear that we have gotten off topic. My suggestion would be to make a separate repository for Trinity. Beware, we also updated Qt to version 3.3.8c (just a few minor changes, no idea if bugs remain) while we finish the porting to Qt4. -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
2011/3/25 Tux99 > > > Quote: Balcaen John wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:30 > > > > As as already said earlier, if you want to compile TDE, you can also > > compile > > qt3 with devel enable because you 'll need to *patch* qt3 to be able to > > > > compile TDE >=3.5.12 cf > > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/Qt3 > > I'm aware of the patch needed for TDE >=3.5.12, but my current interest is > 3.5.12. > After that when the patch is needed for future versions then I will look at > applying the patch to the qt3 package. > > > So i'll repeat myself once more : > > -> enable qt3 with devel support on your box > > -> patch it (because i expect you want to fix some TDE bugs available > > in 3.5.12 > > & you'll need to patch for TDE from svn > 1214094 > > -> compile, test TDE on your computer with a prefix in /usr (¬ > > /opt) > > -> if everything is ok, ask for a space online (i can help if it's > > really > > needed for that) to provide TDE in a contrib for more tests > > -> & than if it's ok we can start thinking about including some part of > > it > > As I said earlier in this thread I have of course already rebuilt the qt3 > package on my box and started working on the TDE packages (thanks to work > done by Tim for Mandriva it's far easier for me now). > So we can now work on next step ? Assume you can build it without problem, that's it's including without problem in mageia, put it on an external repository for more test and after discuss again about it's inclusion in mandriva. > The point is with the overwhelmingly negative attitude directed towards me > even 'thinking' about TDE in Mageia, I don't think my reaction is that > surprising, or is it? > I did not see any negative attitude directed towards you, most of people told you that for the moment it was a no-go in order to enable qt3-devel until you'll be able to prove that TDE can integrate nicely in Mageia, that's all. They also explained : -> why qt3 was still in mageia & why we did not package the -devel files. We could have close this thread far earlier > At this point I don't think there is any chance that TDE ever goes into the > Mageia repos, given the attitudes I have faced here. > I don't see why. The only problem we faced is that we're not agree about packaging qt3-devel for the moment, that's all. We proposed you to packaged TDE , get it reviewed etc etc. Some of us indeed ask for a Qt4 TDE and not a Qt3 TDE.. > Also this is not really about my ideas as Xavier's post showed, there are > others too that are affected by these arbitrary and unnecessary > limitations (they are probably just less outspoken than I am). > We started a new distribution and we made choices, one of them was to not have Qt3 apps. It's not like we were providing Qt3 & others apps & suddently someone decides to drop all of them from the distribution... This could be seen as arbitrary and unnecessary limitations because suddently you can loose functionnality, here we started *without* thoses because we decided to start like this. -- Balcaen John Jabber-Id: mik...@jabber.littleboboy.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Colin Guthrie wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:43 > "Freedom" is in no way restricted. I see absolutely no problem with > compiling a qt3 package yourself with the -devel package enabled if > you > want to use it. But isn't one of the reasons for participating in a community distro, wanting to share what each of us builds for ourselves? And if such sharing is being vetoed preemptively in advance without an objective reason based on facts but rather based on fears and personal opinions, isn't that an unnecessary restriction of freedom that doesn't suit a true community distro? -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
nicolas vigier wrote: On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:08 Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. So you are arbitrarily making life harder to people like Xavier and myself. And you want to arbitrarily make life a lot harder to people who want to make sure the distribution is not based on obsolete and unmaintained software. On the other hand, rebuilding a qt3 package yourself takes a few minutes. [...] You're building other software, but you can't rebuild a qt3 package yourself ? Sorry but I can't agree here: when I build a software, I like to build _just_ the software, not the whole system around! (I would use a Gentoo otherwise). I loved Mandriva because of this point: it was at the same time simple to use AND full of resource to build and customize specialized applications. If you are on this way, you can also remove QCad*: yes it is old, unmaintained and based on QT3 - but still the best free 2D drawing software on Linux ... As a user, I still use applications which needs qt3 and with no equivalent based on QT4 ; so I would like qt3-devel to be included in Mageia I can't see the point in not including packages just because they are unmaintained. They are still used and useful + you have people who want to package them, so ? Thanks for reading me, Xavier * maybe it is already removed from Mageia, I didn't checked. But I think I can find a lot of other example of obsolete & unmaintained software but still useful which were in Mandriva (eg xmms).
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: tux99 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:47 > Quote: Balcaen John wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:30 > > > > As as already said earlier, if you want to compile TDE, you can > > also compile > > qt3 with devel enable because you 'll need to *patch* qt3 to be > > able to > > compile TDE >=3.5.12 cf > > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/Qt3 > > I'm aware of the patch needed for TDE >=3.5.12, but my current interest > is 3.5.12. > After that when the patch is needed for future versions then I will > look at applying the patch to the qt3 package. Correction: I meant to say the patch is needed for TDE >3.5.12, TDE 3.5.12 does not require it AFAIK. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Balcaen John wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:30 > > As as already said earlier, if you want to compile TDE, you can also > compile > qt3 with devel enable because you 'll need to *patch* qt3 to be able to > > compile TDE >=3.5.12 cf > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/Qt3 I'm aware of the patch needed for TDE >=3.5.12, but my current interest is 3.5.12. After that when the patch is needed for future versions then I will look at applying the patch to the qt3 package. > So i'll repeat myself once more : > -> enable qt3 with devel support on your box > -> patch it (because i expect you want to fix some TDE bugs available > in 3.5.12 > & you'll need to patch for TDE from svn > 1214094 > -> compile, test TDE on your computer with a prefix in /usr (¬ > /opt) > -> if everything is ok, ask for a space online (i can help if it's > really > needed for that) to provide TDE in a contrib for more tests > -> & than if it's ok we can start thinking about including some part of > it As I said earlier in this thread I have of course already rebuilt the qt3 package on my box and started working on the TDE packages (thanks to work done by Tim for Mandriva it's far easier for me now). The point is with the overwhelmingly negative attitude directed towards me even 'thinking' about TDE in Mageia, I don't think my reaction is that surprising, or is it? At this point I don't think there is any chance that TDE ever goes into the Mageia repos, given the attitudes I have faced here. Also this is not really about my ideas as Xavier's post showed, there are others too that are affected by these arbitrary and unnecessary limitations (they are probably just less outspoken than I am). -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
'Twas brillig, and Tux99 at 25/03/11 11:14 did gyre and gimble: > My concerns here are exactly because I'm getting the feeling that freedom > is being unnecessarily restricted in Mageia. This is a very, very subjective statement, and I am rather concerned that it's being used as some kind of leverage here (perhaps include a picture of a puppy with sad eyes too! :p) "Freedom" is in no way restricted. I see absolutely no problem with compiling a qt3 package yourself with the -devel package enabled if you want to use it. If you come up with a set of applications that then build off it that you want to be included in Mageia repos, then I'm sure this can be discussed at the time. Saying that a certain packaging option "restricts freedom" is a statement I find rather offensive. Nothing is restricted, you simply have to rebuild things. Ahmad disabled gvfs-iphone the other day as it requires a newer (and apparently less stable) libimobiledevice. Does that "restrict my freedom"? No, of course it does not. I don't necessarily agree with the decision and I'll test the stability of the new combo in coming weeks to see if it can be included officially. This isn't restricting my freedom, it's just a process I have to go through. This is exactly the same with your qt3-devel issue. Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 12:14, Tux99 wrote: > Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:56 >> A choice is arbitrary, always. It always says no >> to something. Implying that this would "restrict freedoms of users" >> would be laughable at best, offensive at worst, especially since this >> is an open source project. > > You seem to be confusing different concepts here, just because a project is > based on open source software that doesn't automatically guarantee that the > community based on it is a community that values freedom. Re-read our project docs, then (announcement, values, code of conduct). And understand that it's not about the freedom of getting all that you want without consideration for what it is, who makes it, and when and how. > My concerns here are exactly because I'm getting the feeling that freedom > is being unnecessarily restricted in Mageia. My feeling here is that, even before the technical issues at hand, your attitude (or at least how it is perceived) is very much the cause of the crispation. You seem to take this whole project as if it was a given to you. When people object to you based on their experience, you understand that as an unappropriate preference and don't even seem to listen to what is proposed. When things appear to you not as you expected them, you look like ready to dismiss the goodwill of the same people that make this whole project possible every single day. And that taints a lot the points you're trying to make, whatever these are. Collaboration is not only about facts, desires, opinions. If you are not able to go along well within the packaging team, only in discussion, it's unfortunately possible that you won't like it; others won't like it either. Nothing good will come out of this. >> Please open a bug for that if you think it's worth discussing it >> again. > > Is that now the procedure for this? For opening a bug? https://bugs.mageia.org/ => New, and explain the thing. > I would also appreciate it, if you could clarify the procedures with > regards to the council I asked about in my last reply to you. The board/council lists are not setup yet, unfortunately. However you may have seen on -discuss that a preparation document is available for next council meeting; although this coming meeting is already quite full, you may append your point for the next one. And that doesn't prevent from asking clearly here or on discuss that you want the topic to be reviewed by the council. But even there, you being an apprentice, I would suggest you: - first, review this with your mentor; - second, review this again with the packaging team; - third, push this to the council if needed (where it will need to have both sides expose their points, for the record and the decision). Cool. And good luck. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Friday 25 March 2011 08:18:38, Tux99 wrote: > Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:08 > > > Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. > > So you are arbitrarily making life harder to people like Xavier and > myself. If you think so... As as already said earlier, if you want to compile TDE, you can also compile qt3 with devel enable because you 'll need to *patch* qt3 to be able to compile TDE >=3.5.12 cf http://www.trinitydesktop.org/wiki/bin/view/Developers/Qt3 So it's just not about « enable -devel » in qt3 package because i guess you're not going to stick with with TDE 3.5.12 i guess ? So i'll repeat myself once more : -> enable qt3 with devel support on your box -> patch it (because i expect you want to fix some TDE bugs available in 3.5.12 & you'll need to patch for TDE from svn > 1214094 -> compile, test TDE on your computer with a prefix in /usr (¬ /opt) -> if everything is ok, ask for a space online (i can help if it's really needed for that) to provide TDE in a contrib for more tests -> & than if it's ok we can start thinking about including some part of it Regards, -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:08 > > > Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. > > So you are arbitrarily making life harder to people like Xavier and > myself. And you want to arbitrarily make life a lot harder to people who want to make sure the distribution is not based on obsolete and unmaintained software. On the other hand, rebuilding a qt3 package yourself takes a few minutes. > > > And you still didn't explain why you want it, if it's not to build > > software based on it. > > Of course I want to build sw based on it, I said so in the first post of > this thread, but that doesn't automatically imply that t this software > will be in the Mageia repos (that's a separate issue). You're building other software, but you can't rebuild a qt3 package yourself ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 12:08 > Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. So you are arbitrarily making life harder to people like Xavier and myself. > And you still didn't explain why you want it, if it's not to build > software based on it. Of course I want to build sw based on it, I said so in the first post of this thread, but that doesn't automatically imply that t this software will be in the Mageia repos (that's a separate issue). > And do you have any objective compelling reason to include qt3-devel, > other than an arbitrary reason based on personal preferences ? See the first post of this thread and indeed even the subject of this thread. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:56 > A choice is arbitrary, always. It always says no > to something. Implying that this would "restrict freedoms of users" > would be laughable at best, offensive at worst, especially since this > is an open source project. You seem to be confusing different concepts here, just because a project is based on open source software that doesn't automatically guarantee that the community based on it is a community that values freedom. My concerns here are exactly because I'm getting the feeling that freedom is being unnecessarily restricted in Mageia. And no a choice is definitely not always arbitrary. Choices can be forced by unsurmountable limitations or technical incompatibilities or they can be arbitrary (i.e. not objectively necessary). > > In the early days a 'contrib' repo was suggested for not > > officially > > supported packages (I was for that idea too), this would be a good > > situation where a 'contrib' repo would solve this matter for > > everyone. > > Please open a bug for that if you think it's worth discussing it > again. Is that now the procedure for this? I would also appreciate it, if you could clarify the procedures with regards to the council I asked about in my last reply to you. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:50 > > > > Having a qt3-devel packages does not automatically imply having > > > packages > > > based on it in the official repos. > > > > Why do you want to have a qt3-devel package on the official repos, if > > it's not to have other packages based on it ? > > Why do you NOT want to have it in the repo? Because we want to be sure that nothing is built on this library. And you still didn't explain why you want it, if it's not to build software based on it. > I have only seen arbitrary reasons based on personal preferences, not an > objective compelling reason. And do you have any objective compelling reason to include qt3-devel, other than an arbitrary reason based on personal preferences ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:33, Tux99 wrote: > Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:53 >> If you can't work here by that, or if you are not happy with how >> things go here, you are free to discuss this openly with members of >> the council or of the board to sort it out. > > Is there a procedure for that somewhere? > I would think such discussions are supposed to happen on the MLs (rather > than in private) and given that board/council members posted in this > thread I would assume that this discussion is happening here. That's still a discussion, where views and directions are given. No strict decision. Because I'm a board member does not mean that everything I say in any discussion is a de-facto board view/decision (thankfully). It can hint about what my views are and how I would express them in a board meeting; but it doesn't mean that this will necessarily be what I'll vote for either. > Are you saying that the members of the council that posted here in this > thread would give a different answer if I contacted them formally (how?) > as members of the council? Not necessarily, but it can happen. As a reminder: - council meeting/decisions are made by team representatives, that express their team's views; - board meeting/decisions are made by board members, that express their own views, with consideration given to the council (hence teams) and community views at large + project objectives & means. That does not prevent individual members of each, out of these instances, to express their own views, without these having the force of a rule at once (again, thankfully). > I have no problem co-maintaining the package (with regards to the devel > side of it) but I'm not aware of any formal procedure to take maintenance > of a package. > Is there such a procedure formalized somewhere? See that with your mentor. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:50 > > Having a qt3-devel packages does not automatically imply having > > packages > > based on it in the official repos. > > Why do you want to have a qt3-devel package on the official repos, if > it's not to have other packages based on it ? Why do you NOT want to have it in the repo? Does it affect you if it's in the repo? Did you read Xavier's post? > Nothing prevent you from building the package on your computer if you > want it. But we don't want it on the repository for the reasons > already > explained ... I have only seen arbitrary reasons based on personal preferences, not an objective compelling reason. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:38, Tux99 wrote: > Also is there an official rule somewhere that specifies: > > "because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in > the repository" > > or is this simply an arbitrary rule that restricts freedoms of users and > other packagers? Nothing is always written down on paper. Saying it's arbitrary because it comes out of packagers' experience is a tad extreme. Saying that "restricts freedoms of users" is clearly excessive here. Again, it's not as if it was a closed product: users can open the box and package stuff too (ah yes, it's not dead obvious to do so, but that's something we can aim to improve in the coming years). What will come out of Mageia, in June, won't satisfy everyone. Choices will have been done. A choice is arbitrary, always. It always says no to something. Implying that this would "restrict freedoms of users" would be laughable at best, offensive at worst, especially since this is an open source project. That's not to say that people will just have to help themselves, we expect to make something cool and useful, but we're not going to say "yes!" to everything and everyone either. > In the early days a 'contrib' repo was suggested for not officially > supported packages (I was for that idea too), this would be a good > situation where a 'contrib' repo would solve this matter for everyone. Please open a bug for that if you think it's worth discussing it again. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:20 > > > The COMPELLING reason has already been said. It's because we don't > > want > > to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository. > > That is not a compelling reason as Xavier's post showed for example. > > Having a qt3-devel packages does not automatically imply having packages > based on it in the official repos. Why do you want to have a qt3-devel package on the official repos, if it's not to have other packages based on it ? > > Also is there an official rule somewhere that specifies: > > "because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in > the repository" > > or is this simply an arbitrary rule that restricts freedoms of users and > other packagers? Nothing prevent you from building the package on your computer if you want it. But we don't want it on the repository for the reasons already explained ...
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 11:20 > The COMPELLING reason has already been said. It's because we don't > want > to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository. That is not a compelling reason as Xavier's post showed for example. Having a qt3-devel packages does not automatically imply having packages based on it in the official repos. Also is there an official rule somewhere that specifies: "because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository" or is this simply an arbitrary rule that restricts freedoms of users and other packagers? In the early days a 'contrib' repo was suggested for not officially supported packages (I was for that idea too), this would be a good situation where a 'contrib' repo would solve this matter for everyone. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:53 > You can't force a maintainer to do something you want and that she > judges not right for her set of packages. We seem to be having a communication issue. Where did I force a maintainer to do anything? I asked if there is any COMPELLING reason for me not to reenable qt3-devel. If there isn't, then of course I will reenable it. It wasn't me who then started a long off-topic discussion about imagined or otherwise risks of TDE. > If you can't work here by that, or if you are not happy with how > things go here, you are free to discuss this openly with members of > the council or of the board to sort it out. Is there a procedure for that somewhere? I would think such discussions are supposed to happen on the MLs (rather than in private) and given that board/council members posted in this thread I would assume that this discussion is happening here. Are you saying that the members of the council that posted here in this thread would give a different answer if I contacted them formally (how?) as members of the council? TBH I didn't even want any grand discussion, to repeat myself I was just trying to find out if there is anything blocking the reenabling of qt3-devel. (I hope this point is finally clear enough by now) > So why all the fuss? Take the maintainance of the package, make your > changes, submit it and here you are. If you re-read the thread you will find that I didn't start "the fuss", in fact it was started by people expressing fears about TDE and some board/council members putting preemptive vetos on TDE. I have no problem co-maintaining the package (with regards to the devel side of it) but I'm not aware of any formal procedure to take maintenance of a package. Is there such a procedure formalized somewhere? -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, 25 Mar 2011, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:30 > > > Wait. What you seem to forget is that this is not only about rights > > but too about duties. The "freedom" above comes from people that take > > their time to craft and package things, so they are verily in their > > right and duty to make choices - documented, discussed, agreed. And > > it's not because just one or two people argue and argue the contrary > > that the maintainer should ... "obey". > > As a general principle in a community that values freedom anything that > doesn't affect others negatively shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted. > Also I never asked anyone else to do anything, I said I would reenable > qt3-devel unless there is a COMPELLING (i.e. blocking) reason not to do > so. The COMPELLING reason has already been said. It's because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository. The only reason that we keep the library and only removed the devel package is that some external LSB programs could use it, so we need it to be compatible with LSB.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:37, Tux99 wrote: > Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:30 > >> Wait. What you seem to forget is that this is not only about rights >> but too about duties. The "freedom" above comes from people that take >> their time to craft and package things, so they are verily in their >> right and duty to make choices - documented, discussed, agreed. And >> it's not because just one or two people argue and argue the contrary >> that the maintainer should ... "obey". > > As a general principle in a community that values freedom anything that > doesn't affect others negatively shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted. You can't force a maintainer to do something you want and that she judges not right for her set of packages. At best you can ask a community (council) decision about that, and that may lead to you (or someone else) taking the maintainance of the said package. If you can't work here by that, or if you are not happy with how things go here, you are free to discuss this openly with members of the council or of the board to sort it out. Here was only a discussion where you get overly alarmed without any necessity when people start to answer their views contrary to your plans. Nowhere was a decision to block you. If you wanted a consensus, you've seen in this thread what it was; that still doesn't block you from doing/pushing your changes as long as they don't break anything. If you wanted a decision, you'd have to formally ask for that the packagers team, or the council, or the board: that was not done. So what are you complaining about? > Also I never asked anyone else to do anything, I said I would reenable > qt3-devel unless there is a COMPELLING (i.e. blocking) reason not to do > so. So why all the fuss? Take the maintainance of the package, make your changes, submit it and here you are. romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: xi wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:32 > As always, please don't drop too fast the packages that you find > useless. There are still some users like me who may use QT3. > > I still use some "not so common" applications (eg tools for electronic) > > which needs QT3 and it is always much more convenient to simply do a > "urpmi libqt3-devel" than downloading and compiling qt3 ... especially > > if libqt3 is already included in Mageia ! Exactly my point, thanks Xavier. This is about not restricting other people's freedoms. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: rdalverny wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:30 > Wait. What you seem to forget is that this is not only about rights > but too about duties. The "freedom" above comes from people that take > their time to craft and package things, so they are verily in their > right and duty to make choices - documented, discussed, agreed. And > it's not because just one or two people argue and argue the contrary > that the maintainer should ... "obey". As a general principle in a community that values freedom anything that doesn't affect others negatively shouldn't be arbitrarily restricted. Also I never asked anyone else to do anything, I said I would reenable qt3-devel unless there is a COMPELLING (i.e. blocking) reason not to do so. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
y...@antredugeek.fr wrote: Hi, QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated ? Imho, Mageia had better to wait for a trinity-qt4-desktop... ++ yg Hi, Last realease of QT3 is _not_ 6 years old but about 3 years old ... As always, please don't drop too fast the packages that you find useless. There are still some users like me who may use QT3. I still use some "not so common" applications (eg tools for electronic) which needs QT3 and it is always much more convenient to simply do a "urpmi libqt3-devel" than downloading and compiling qt3 ... especially if libqt3 is already included in Mageia ! Thanks, Xavier
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Oliver Burger wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 10:21 > A community distro is first and formost about community. Every time one > of your > ideas, suggestions, questions is answered by anyone with a "no" you > begin to > blame "a few of the core members", no matter how many people said no > and who > they were. You completely missed the point. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 10:09, Tux99 wrote: > You are missing the point. QT3 is already part of Mageia and it wasn't me > who added it. All I'm asking is if there is any compelling reason not to > enable qt3-devel in the existing qt3 source package that is part of Mageia. Then ask the qt3 maintainer - and as long as you don't expect to give a hand in this maintaince, live by her/his answer (if it's only about qt3). And if you're not satisfied with the recommandations/answers you got from there, just push the topic as a clear question to a next coming Council meeting to decide on this and you'll see (but it's likely the Council will stand by the maintainer recommandation, unless there's really something big at stake on the contrary). > If there isn't any COMPELLING reason, then qt3-devel should be reenabled as > long as someone wishes it. If it's deprecated stuff, is there any compeling reason to reenable a devel package of it. And if someone wishes it back, and the maintainers thinks it's not worth it (too old, deprecated, unstable, complex, unclear, not the plan), the maintainer has the hand (so one can become the maintainer if it's really needed for her). > What everyone here seems to forget is that a community distro should be > first and foremost about FREEDOM. Freedom to let others enjoy their > preferred software, not ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS imposed by personal > preferences or unnecessarily restrictive ARBITRARY RULES made up along the > way by a few of the core members. Wait. What you seem to forget is that this is not only about rights but too about duties. The "freedom" above comes from people that take their time to craft and package things, so they are verily in their right and duty to make choices - documented, discussed, agreed. And it's not because just one or two people argue and argue the contrary that the maintainer should ... "obey". See above posts, we've been several to suggest you a more practical path for everyone. That choices made here in this project do/will not satisfy everyone is plain obvious. Those choices don't prevent one from reverting them on ones end, demonstrate they are worth it in the project main line, and have them integrated. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Am Freitag 25 März 2011, 10:09:57 schrieb Tux99: > What everyone here seems to forget is that a community distro should be > first and foremost about FREEDOM. Freedom to let others enjoy their > preferred software, not ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS imposed by personal > preferences or unnecessarily restrictive ARBITRARY RULES made up along the > way by a few of the core members. Sorry but I can't let that stand as it is. A community distro is first and formost about community. Every time one of your ideas, suggestions, questions is answered by anyone with a "no" you begin to blame "a few of the core members", no matter how many people said no and who they were. You just have to accept that in a community project like mageia there is a decission structure ( see out gouvernance model at http://www.mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=org). So there isn't a secret inner circle of dictators who tell the other what to do and what not to do, it's an open structure in which everyone can participate. But if the majority of people take a decision, you just have to accept it. If anyone just does what he thinks is best, we won't have a community project, we will have anarchy. Perhaps you should consider that and stop writing unfounded accusations in capital letters, like you did here. Just my 2 cents... Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: yves wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 09:42 > Hi, > QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? > So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated > ? You are missing the point. QT3 is already part of Mageia and it wasn't me who added it. All I'm asking is if there is any compelling reason not to enable qt3-devel in the existing qt3 source package that is part of Mageia. If there isn't any COMPELLING reason, then qt3-devel should be reenabled as long as someone wishes it. What everyone here seems to forget is that a community distro should be first and foremost about FREEDOM. Freedom to let others enjoy their preferred software, not ARTIFICIAL RESTRICTIONS imposed by personal preferences or unnecessarily restrictive ARBITRARY RULES made up along the way by a few of the core members. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Hi, QT4 is released since 2005, about... 6 years ? So, why is it usefull to maintain a package that "becomes" depreciated ? Imho, Mageia had better to wait for a trinity-qt4-desktop... ++ yg
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Dexter Morgan wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 09:15 > > Is there any compelling reason why we cannot reenable qt3-devel in > > the qt3 > > source package that is ALREADY part of Mageia? > > > > If not then I want to reenable it. > > Work on TDE on your side first, we won't reenable this old, > deprecated, unmaintened package is nothing really need it. > Reenable it locally for you, do all your work on TDE and then when you > will have fullfilled and pre required we will be able to start to > discuss about TDE. Dexter, you didn't really answer my question, I will work on TDE by myself but my question is about if there is any COMPELLING REASON NOT TO REENABLE QT3-devel. QT3 is ALREADY included in Mageia so reenabling the devel package does not make any difference whatsoever to Mageia. I didn't start this thread to discuss about TDE, but purely for qt3-devel. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 8:53 AM, Tux99 wrote: > > > Ok, can we get back on topic? > > Is there any compelling reason why we cannot reenable qt3-devel in the qt3 > source package that is ALREADY part of Mageia? > > If not then I want to reenable it. Work on TDE on your side first, we won't reenable this old, deprecated, unmaintened package is nothing really need it. Reenable it locally for you, do all your work on TDE and then when you will have fullfilled and pre required we will be able to start to discuss about TDE.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Ok, can we get back on topic? Is there any compelling reason why we cannot reenable qt3-devel in the qt3 source package that is ALREADY part of Mageia? If not then I want to reenable it. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 22:09:50 schreef Dexter Morgan: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Maarten Vanraes > > wrote: > > Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 20:55:47 schreef Ahmad Samir: > >> On 24 March 2011 21:36, Maarten Vanraes wrote: > >> > Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 14:10:39 schreef Romain d'Alverny: > >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:13, Tux99 wrote: > >> >> > Like I said before, KDE3.5 coexisted very well with KDE4 since > >> >> > 2009.1 on Mandriva and Trinity is even more so being developed > >> >> > with coexistence in mind, so there shouldn't be any unsolvable > >> >> > issues. > >> >> > >> >> Maybe it did coexist well at a significant cost on the packaging > >> >> side? (time, packaging compromises) and maybe the situation isn't > >> >> exactly the same as then? > >> >> > >> >> > This is exactly what I would call a reasonable factual > >> >> > argumentation. > >> >> > >> >> But an argument is not going to make anyone progress one way or the > >> >> other here obviously. If there are fears, then provide facts to > >> >> counter them (no argument, but facts). > >> >> > >> >> You propose to add TDE in the repository. After this discussion, the > >> >> next step is you to first package TDE, build and test and > >> >> see/demonstrate how it goes, regarding at least these 5 points > >> >> (summarized from above) before an integration is considered: > >> >> 1. no conflict on files > >> >> 2. install in %_prefix (not in /opt) > >> >> 3. no duplicate software name (do not confuse user to decide between > >> >> tde-k3b and k3b for instance - or find a realistic workaround use > >> >> case). > >> >> 4. at this point, no apps outside of the TDE project should require > >> >> TDE 5. committed maintainers > >> >> > >> >> Romain > >> > > >> > also promising to maintain qt3 as long as it's needed and here, the > >> > same thing, not conflicting with qt4 in any way > >> > >> How could a packager propose to maintain qt3 when it's been dead > >> upstream for years? so no upstream support/patches/whatever... > > > > yes, it would be a huge amount of work; and that's exactly the reason i > > proposed to OP to just wait until it's qt4. > > this will just remove the qt3 issue bug all the other issues will > still be valid. i'm hoping that by that time, that some apps will be the KDE4 apps or really their own apps. And in any case, it's a lot less work. The way i see it, it's seems there's: A) alot of work to maintain this B) quite some potential issues C) seemingly not alot of benefits B is the main point here, if they are dedicated to it, and can give good points on B. then sure, why not. IF they can also handle A. but don't get me wrong, there is not much chance of me actually using TDE.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Robert Xu a écrit : On Mar 23, 2011, at 17:28, Dexter Morgan wrote: On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Olivier Blin wrote: Dexter Morgan writes: I certainly don't have the web space and bandwidth resources for a repository and frankly I joined Mageia as a packager precisely because I thought Mageia would finally make confusing and conflicting third party repos (like Mandriva has) obsolete. We can host repositories for you, if Mageia is unwilling to accept them - you could make a kde3 rpm that adds the necessary sources to use. Or, Mageia could make an official kde3 repository that is disabled by default but can be enabled on installer/rpmdrake. I'm not the expert at this, though :-/ that's mageia dev decisions. no a special repo hosted by mageia is not a good idea, we will not start to do repo for all that way. This need to be external, independant repository. If you can host it this would be perfect. This would be a mess, like previously with Mandriva and its few third-party repositories with various quality level, where the distro packaging policy can't be enforced. This is bad for end-users. Why not include TrinityDE in Mageia repos? If not conflicting with KDE4, not having similar provides, and not even installed by default, it seems ok to include it in the distro. we will face too many pbs simple question: we provide k3b ( kde apps ) trinity provide k3b ( kde3 apps ) Uh, no, k3b-trinity or k3b-kde3 files are similar ( or named the same ), how users will distinguish No.. That's the purpose of /opt/kde3 the version it wants? how to deal with conflicts ? What conflicts? We're installing in a seperate prefix. Also, the RPM requires, provides, conflicts, etc have long been fixed, no? It might be better to use /usr/tde/kde3/ instead of /opt/kde3/ (which is a bit questionable according to fs guidelines). (assuming of course that /usr/tde/ is used for trinity.) That way it is unquestionably linked to trinity, and can be easily retired without fear of conflict when trinity migration is complete. Maybe the same could be done for qt3-devel requirements ? (Of course that would be more work for trinity people.) It is better to use trinity-kde3 for requires, as someone else suggested. (And similarly trinity-qt3-devel.) my 2 cents :) -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Maarten Vanraes wrote: > Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 20:55:47 schreef Ahmad Samir: >> On 24 March 2011 21:36, Maarten Vanraes wrote: >> > Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 14:10:39 schreef Romain d'Alverny: >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:13, Tux99 wrote: >> >> > Like I said before, KDE3.5 coexisted very well with KDE4 since 2009.1 >> >> > on Mandriva and Trinity is even more so being developed with >> >> > coexistence in mind, so there shouldn't be any unsolvable issues. >> >> >> >> Maybe it did coexist well at a significant cost on the packaging side? >> >> (time, packaging compromises) and maybe the situation isn't exactly >> >> the same as then? >> >> >> >> > This is exactly what I would call a reasonable factual argumentation. >> >> >> >> But an argument is not going to make anyone progress one way or the >> >> other here obviously. If there are fears, then provide facts to >> >> counter them (no argument, but facts). >> >> >> >> You propose to add TDE in the repository. After this discussion, the >> >> next step is you to first package TDE, build and test and >> >> see/demonstrate how it goes, regarding at least these 5 points >> >> (summarized from above) before an integration is considered: >> >> 1. no conflict on files >> >> 2. install in %_prefix (not in /opt) >> >> 3. no duplicate software name (do not confuse user to decide between >> >> tde-k3b and k3b for instance - or find a realistic workaround use >> >> case). >> >> 4. at this point, no apps outside of the TDE project should require TDE >> >> 5. committed maintainers >> >> >> >> Romain >> > >> > also promising to maintain qt3 as long as it's needed and here, the same >> > thing, not conflicting with qt4 in any way >> >> How could a packager propose to maintain qt3 when it's been dead >> upstream for years? so no upstream support/patches/whatever... > > yes, it would be a huge amount of work; and that's exactly the reason i > proposed to OP to just wait until it's qt4. > this will just remove the qt3 issue bug all the other issues will still be valid.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 20:55:47 schreef Ahmad Samir: > On 24 March 2011 21:36, Maarten Vanraes wrote: > > Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 14:10:39 schreef Romain d'Alverny: > >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:13, Tux99 wrote: > >> > Like I said before, KDE3.5 coexisted very well with KDE4 since 2009.1 > >> > on Mandriva and Trinity is even more so being developed with > >> > coexistence in mind, so there shouldn't be any unsolvable issues. > >> > >> Maybe it did coexist well at a significant cost on the packaging side? > >> (time, packaging compromises) and maybe the situation isn't exactly > >> the same as then? > >> > >> > This is exactly what I would call a reasonable factual argumentation. > >> > >> But an argument is not going to make anyone progress one way or the > >> other here obviously. If there are fears, then provide facts to > >> counter them (no argument, but facts). > >> > >> You propose to add TDE in the repository. After this discussion, the > >> next step is you to first package TDE, build and test and > >> see/demonstrate how it goes, regarding at least these 5 points > >> (summarized from above) before an integration is considered: > >> 1. no conflict on files > >> 2. install in %_prefix (not in /opt) > >> 3. no duplicate software name (do not confuse user to decide between > >> tde-k3b and k3b for instance - or find a realistic workaround use > >> case). > >> 4. at this point, no apps outside of the TDE project should require TDE > >> 5. committed maintainers > >> > >> Romain > > > > also promising to maintain qt3 as long as it's needed and here, the same > > thing, not conflicting with qt4 in any way > > How could a packager propose to maintain qt3 when it's been dead > upstream for years? so no upstream support/patches/whatever... yes, it would be a huge amount of work; and that's exactly the reason i proposed to OP to just wait until it's qt4.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 24 March 2011 21:36, Maarten Vanraes wrote: > Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 14:10:39 schreef Romain d'Alverny: >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:13, Tux99 wrote: >> > Like I said before, KDE3.5 coexisted very well with KDE4 since 2009.1 on >> > Mandriva and Trinity is even more so being developed with coexistence in >> > mind, so there shouldn't be any unsolvable issues. >> >> Maybe it did coexist well at a significant cost on the packaging side? >> (time, packaging compromises) and maybe the situation isn't exactly >> the same as then? >> >> > This is exactly what I would call a reasonable factual argumentation. >> >> But an argument is not going to make anyone progress one way or the >> other here obviously. If there are fears, then provide facts to >> counter them (no argument, but facts). >> >> You propose to add TDE in the repository. After this discussion, the >> next step is you to first package TDE, build and test and >> see/demonstrate how it goes, regarding at least these 5 points >> (summarized from above) before an integration is considered: >> 1. no conflict on files >> 2. install in %_prefix (not in /opt) >> 3. no duplicate software name (do not confuse user to decide between >> tde-k3b and k3b for instance - or find a realistic workaround use >> case). >> 4. at this point, no apps outside of the TDE project should require TDE >> 5. committed maintainers >> >> Romain > > also promising to maintain qt3 as long as it's needed and here, the same > thing, not conflicting with qt4 in any way > How could a packager propose to maintain qt3 when it's been dead upstream for years? so no upstream support/patches/whatever... -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 16:22:15 schreef Ahmad Samir: > On 24 March 2011 11:56, Olivier Blin wrote: > > nicolas vigier writes: > >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Robert Xu wrote: > >>> As I reiterate, Trinity does not interfere with KDE4 in any way, if > >>> you keep /opt/kde3 > >> > >> Are you sure ? > >> > >> For libs installed in /opt/kde3/lib, rpm find-provides will add the > >> provides for the libs on the packages. When an other package require > >> this library, it will give the choice to install the Trinity package and > >> some people will do it. > >> > >> Then there is two options : > >> - /opt/kde3/lib is not in ld.so.conf, and the programs using this lib > >>will not run > >> - /opt/kde3/lib is in ld.so.conf, so the programs using this lib will > >>run, but we can have two versions of the lib installed, one in > >> /usr/lib and one in /opt/kde3/lib, and we don't know which one will be > >> used, so we can see various strange problems. > > > > This should not be an issue if the libraries from Trinity and KDE4 have > > different majors > > > > -- > > Olivier Blin - blino > > No guarantees on that point... you never know when the major of a lib > is going to change, and there're hundreds of libs in a DE... It is a lot of work, but i have no qualms if the people maintain both qt3 and TDE and can guarantee no breakage at any point in time, and a TDE policy that needs to be welltested before introducing. if possible, also a priority preference (like it was done with systemd)
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op donderdag 24 maart 2011 14:10:39 schreef Romain d'Alverny: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:13, Tux99 wrote: > > Like I said before, KDE3.5 coexisted very well with KDE4 since 2009.1 on > > Mandriva and Trinity is even more so being developed with coexistence in > > mind, so there shouldn't be any unsolvable issues. > > Maybe it did coexist well at a significant cost on the packaging side? > (time, packaging compromises) and maybe the situation isn't exactly > the same as then? > > > This is exactly what I would call a reasonable factual argumentation. > > But an argument is not going to make anyone progress one way or the > other here obviously. If there are fears, then provide facts to > counter them (no argument, but facts). > > You propose to add TDE in the repository. After this discussion, the > next step is you to first package TDE, build and test and > see/demonstrate how it goes, regarding at least these 5 points > (summarized from above) before an integration is considered: > 1. no conflict on files > 2. install in %_prefix (not in /opt) > 3. no duplicate software name (do not confuse user to decide between > tde-k3b and k3b for instance - or find a realistic workaround use > case). > 4. at this point, no apps outside of the TDE project should require TDE > 5. committed maintainers > > Romain also promising to maintain qt3 as long as it's needed and here, the same thing, not conflicting with qt4 in any way
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 24 March 2011 11:56, Olivier Blin wrote: > nicolas vigier writes: > >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Robert Xu wrote: >> >>> >>> As I reiterate, Trinity does not interfere with KDE4 in any way, if >>> you keep /opt/kde3 >> >> Are you sure ? >> >> For libs installed in /opt/kde3/lib, rpm find-provides will add the >> provides for the libs on the packages. When an other package require >> this library, it will give the choice to install the Trinity package and >> some people will do it. >> >> Then there is two options : >> - /opt/kde3/lib is not in ld.so.conf, and the programs using this lib >> will not run >> - /opt/kde3/lib is in ld.so.conf, so the programs using this lib will >> run, but we can have two versions of the lib installed, one in /usr/lib >> and one in /opt/kde3/lib, and we don't know which one will be used, so >> we can see various strange problems. > > This should not be an issue if the libraries from Trinity and KDE4 have > different majors > > -- > Olivier Blin - blino > No guarantees on that point... you never know when the major of a lib is going to change, and there're hundreds of libs in a DE... -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 09:13, Tux99 wrote: > Like I said before, KDE3.5 coexisted very well with KDE4 since 2009.1 on > Mandriva and Trinity is even more so being developed with coexistence in > mind, so there shouldn't be any unsolvable issues. Maybe it did coexist well at a significant cost on the packaging side? (time, packaging compromises) and maybe the situation isn't exactly the same as then? > This is exactly what I would call a reasonable factual argumentation. But an argument is not going to make anyone progress one way or the other here obviously. If there are fears, then provide facts to counter them (no argument, but facts). You propose to add TDE in the repository. After this discussion, the next step is you to first package TDE, build and test and see/demonstrate how it goes, regarding at least these 5 points (summarized from above) before an integration is considered: 1. no conflict on files 2. install in %_prefix (not in /opt) 3. no duplicate software name (do not confuse user to decide between tde-k3b and k3b for instance - or find a realistic workaround use case). 4. at this point, no apps outside of the TDE project should require TDE 5. committed maintainers Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
nicolas vigier writes: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Robert Xu wrote: > >> >> As I reiterate, Trinity does not interfere with KDE4 in any way, if >> you keep /opt/kde3 > > Are you sure ? > > For libs installed in /opt/kde3/lib, rpm find-provides will add the > provides for the libs on the packages. When an other package require > this library, it will give the choice to install the Trinity package and > some people will do it. > > Then there is two options : > - /opt/kde3/lib is not in ld.so.conf, and the programs using this lib >will not run > - /opt/kde3/lib is in ld.so.conf, so the programs using this lib will >run, but we can have two versions of the lib installed, one in /usr/lib >and one in /opt/kde3/lib, and we don't know which one will be used, so >we can see various strange problems. This should not be an issue if the libraries from Trinity and KDE4 have different majors -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Robert Xu wrote: > > As I reiterate, Trinity does not interfere with KDE4 in any way, if > you keep /opt/kde3 Are you sure ? For libs installed in /opt/kde3/lib, rpm find-provides will add the provides for the libs on the packages. When an other package require this library, it will give the choice to install the Trinity package and some people will do it. Then there is two options : - /opt/kde3/lib is not in ld.so.conf, and the programs using this lib will not run - /opt/kde3/lib is in ld.so.conf, so the programs using this lib will run, but we can have two versions of the lib installed, one in /usr/lib and one in /opt/kde3/lib, and we don't know which one will be used, so we can see various strange problems.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Oliver Burger wrote on Thu, 24 March 2011 08:53 > > Am Donnerstag 24 März 2011, 08:23:18 schrieb Tux99: > > I think this thread is starting to derail from a simple technical > > question > > limted to a specific issue (reenabling qt-dev) to an ideological > > argument > > based greatly on fear and paranoia. > > It is? I don't think so. Unless you think considerations about > conflicts of TDE > with KDE4 are an "ideological argument based greatly on fear and > paranoia". But that's exactly my point, there is posts about fear/paranoia of conflicts here in this thread, not a factual argument on real existing conflicts. Like I said before, KDE3.5 coexisted very well with KDE4 since 2009.1 on Mandriva and Trinity is even more so being developed with coexistence in mind, so there shouldn't be any unsolvable issues. But again my point is issues should be debated constructively and factually when they are being encountered, not a whole software package being dismissed in advance out of general fear and paranoia. > > The core packages are quite limited in number (6-7 SRPMS), but > > already > > enable the use of TDE as desktop. > > As long as those packages (and all the others, that follow) are > following the > packaging guidlines, are not conflicting with KDE4 apps and are named > in a way > that users see, these are TDE packages, it's ok with me! This is exactly what I would call a reasonable factual argumentation. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Am Donnerstag 24 März 2011, 08:23:18 schrieb Tux99: > I think this thread is starting to derail from a simple technical question > limted to a specific issue (reenabling qt-dev) to an ideological argument > based greatly on fear and paranoia. It is? I don't think so. Unless you think considerations about conflicts of TDE with KDE4 are an "ideological argument based greatly on fear and paranoia". I do go along with the majority of people writing in this thread. We should not have a DE conflicting with KDE4, we should not have packages or apps by the same name. > The core packages are quite limited in number (6-7 SRPMS), but already > enable the use of TDE as desktop. As long as those packages (and all the others, that follow) are following the packaging guidlines, are not conflicting with KDE4 apps and are named in a way that users see, these are TDE packages, it's ok with me! Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
I think this thread is starting to derail from a simple technical question limted to a specific issue (reenabling qt-dev) to an ideological argument based greatly on fear and paranoia. Adding TrinityDE to Mageia, like adding any bigger software, is a gradual step by step process. I don't think anybody is planning an untested mass import of the whole load of TDE packages in one go. My idea is to first get the core TDE packages into Mageia cauldron (of course tested locally first) and then gradually look at the apps one by one (not necessarily me, any packager who is interested in TDE should of course participate). The core packages are quite limited in number (6-7 SRPMS), but already enable the use of TDE as desktop. I hope such an approach is agreeable for everyone. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Le mercredi 23 mars 2011 à 19:39 -0400, Robert Xu a écrit : > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 18:58, Ahmad Samir wrote: > > If the latter, then I don't fancy adding the conflicts in each of the > > various kde4 specs (having just removed them a few months ago, and > > that took quite a lot of work), just to have another DE. > > As I reiterate, Trinity does not interfere with KDE4 in any way, if > you keep /opt/kde3 So does that mean that it interfere if /usr is used ? Can you explain more details about this ? -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 18:58, Ahmad Samir wrote: > On 24 March 2011 00:48, Olivier Blin wrote: >> Ahmad Samir writes: >> >>> We shouldn't under any circumstances add kde3 in the repos, fork or not. >>> >>> Users see a package in the repos and they expect it to be maintained, >>> this will not be the case, we can't support KDE4 and KDE3 at the same >>> time. Past experience tells us this is a major hassle/pain, and we >>> shouldn't have to go back to that murky situation. >> >> That's not KDE3, it's a fork with new maintainers. >> > > The point still stands, will Trinity be another DE? or will we have to > add conflicts in Trinity <-> KDE4 specs? Trinity will be another DE > > If the latter, then I don't fancy adding the conflicts in each of the > various kde4 specs (having just removed them a few months ago, and > that took quite a lot of work), just to have another DE. As I reiterate, Trinity does not interfere with KDE4 in any way, if you keep /opt/kde3 > >>> Also there shouldn't be any qt3 dependant packages in the repos; the >>> only and sole reason qt3 is in the Mageia repos is that stewbintn said >>> he needs it for some LSB stuff, but nothing is built with qt3-devel as >>> BR AFAIK and nothing should be. >> >> It should be ok to add back qt3-devel temporarily, and remove it again >> once Trinity gets ported to Qt4. >> >> -- >> Olivier Blin - blino >> > > > > -- > Ahmad Samir > -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 24 March 2011 00:48, Olivier Blin wrote: > Ahmad Samir writes: > >> We shouldn't under any circumstances add kde3 in the repos, fork or not. >> >> Users see a package in the repos and they expect it to be maintained, >> this will not be the case, we can't support KDE4 and KDE3 at the same >> time. Past experience tells us this is a major hassle/pain, and we >> shouldn't have to go back to that murky situation. > > That's not KDE3, it's a fork with new maintainers. > The point still stands, will Trinity be another DE? or will we have to add conflicts in Trinity <-> KDE4 specs? If the latter, then I don't fancy adding the conflicts in each of the various kde4 specs (having just removed them a few months ago, and that took quite a lot of work), just to have another DE. >> Also there shouldn't be any qt3 dependant packages in the repos; the >> only and sole reason qt3 is in the Mageia repos is that stewbintn said >> he needs it for some LSB stuff, but nothing is built with qt3-devel as >> BR AFAIK and nothing should be. > > It should be ok to add back qt3-devel temporarily, and remove it again > once Trinity gets ported to Qt4. > > -- > Olivier Blin - blino > -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Ahmad Samir writes: > We shouldn't under any circumstances add kde3 in the repos, fork or not. > > Users see a package in the repos and they expect it to be maintained, > this will not be the case, we can't support KDE4 and KDE3 at the same > time. Past experience tells us this is a major hassle/pain, and we > shouldn't have to go back to that murky situation. That's not KDE3, it's a fork with new maintainers. > Also there shouldn't be any qt3 dependant packages in the repos; the > only and sole reason qt3 is in the Mageia repos is that stewbintn said > he needs it for some LSB stuff, but nothing is built with qt3-devel as > BR AFAIK and nothing should be. It should be ok to add back qt3-devel temporarily, and remove it again once Trinity gets ported to Qt4. -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On 23 March 2011 09:49, Tux99 wrote: > > > I noticed there is no qt-devel rpm in mageia. > > I looked into this further and noticed the following comment in the > changelog of qt3: > > Revision 45543 - (view) (download) (annotate) - [select for diffs] > Modified Mon Jan 31 23:32:27 2011 UTC (7 weeks, 1 day ago) by stewb > Original Path: cauldron/qt3/current/SPECS/qt3.spec > File length: 12804 byte(s) > Diff to previous 45436 > qt3 is blacklisted, build a stripped down version with no -devel (for LSB) > http://svnweb.mageia.org/packages/cauldron/qt3/releases/3.3.8b/24.mga1/SPEC > S/qt3.spec?view=log > > Can we please reenable the qt3-devel package as it's required to build the > TrinityDE (www.trinitydesktop.org) > > Trinitydesktop is being ported to QT4 but current versions still rely on > QT3 so dropping qt3-devel is premature. > > Thanks. > We shouldn't under any circumstances add kde3 in the repos, fork or not. Users see a package in the repos and they expect it to be maintained, this will not be the case, we can't support KDE4 and KDE3 at the same time. Past experience tells us this is a major hassle/pain, and we shouldn't have to go back to that murky situation. Also there shouldn't be any qt3 dependant packages in the repos; the only and sole reason qt3 is in the Mageia repos is that stewbintn said he needs it for some LSB stuff, but nothing is built with qt3-devel as BR AFAIK and nothing should be. -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wednesday 23 March 2011 18:29:09, Tux99 wrote: [...] > It goes without saying that I would first build everything locally and test > it, I always do that with every package I work on. Nice to hear ;o) > But like I said, I think a separate/third party repo is a very bad idea, > the whole point of Mageia was that (unlike with Mandriva) finally all > contributors could join their efforts rather than having separate third > party repos all over the place. The idea of an alternative repository was to test it correctly without messing with KDE4. Also the second question is who is going to maintain Qt3 ? Is there a fork maintain by TDE maintainer ? (i'm not sure it's still maintained by Nokia :/ ) > If now this is no longer the case then I don't really see the point in > participating in Mageia as packager. Hum ? The only reason to get a mageia was only to import TDE & not because we're a funny team ? -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Le mercredi 23 mars 2011 à 17:30 -0400, Robert Xu a écrit : > On Mar 23, 2011, at 17:28, Dexter Morgan wrote: > > we will face too many pbs simple question: > > > > we provide k3b ( kde apps ) trinity provide k3b ( kde3 apps ) > > Uh, no, k3b-trinity or k3b-kde3 And for configuration path, various paths in /usr/ etc ? Library name too. > > > > files are similar ( or named the same ), how users will distinguish > > No.. That's the purpose of /opt/kde3 /opt is in no way clean packaging. This is a violation of fhs ( http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#OPTADDONAPPLICATIONSOFTWAREPACKAGES ), and a rpmlint error ( dir-or-file-in-opt ). A rpm should place stuff in /usr, unless there is a good reason. > > the version it wants? how to deal with conflicts ? > > What conflicts? We're installing in a seperate prefix. Also, the RPM > requires, provides, conflicts, etc have long been fixed, no? The whole conflicts/provides/requires were likely cleaned from our rpms, and if they are not, they should be since a regular desktop environnement should not need such provisions. We do not had conflict between gnome and kde, or lxde and xfce, so I see no reason to add them for kde and tde. They were the cause of major headaches in the past, so if a package is added, it must be clean before being uploaded. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Robert Xu writes: >> we provide k3b ( kde apps ) trinity provide k3b ( kde3 apps ) > > Uh, no, k3b-trinity or k3b-kde3 Or use a prefix, which should makes easier to spot trinity packages, like trinity-k3b >> files are similar ( or named the same ), how users will distinguish > > No.. That's the purpose of /opt/kde3 > >> the version it wants? how to deal with conflicts ? > > What conflicts? We're installing in a seperate prefix. Also, the RPM > requires, provides, conflicts, etc have long been fixed, no? Agreed -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Mar 23, 2011, at 17:28, Dexter Morgan wrote: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Olivier Blin wrote: >> Dexter Morgan writes: >> I certainly don't have the web space and bandwidth resources for a repository and frankly I joined Mageia as a packager precisely because I thought Mageia would finally make confusing and conflicting third party repos (like Mandriva has) obsolete. We can host repositories for you, if Mageia is unwilling to accept them - you could make a kde3 rpm that adds the necessary sources to use. Or, Mageia could make an official kde3 repository that is disabled by default but can be enabled on installer/rpmdrake. I'm not the expert at this, though :-/ that's mageia dev decisions. >>> >>> no a special repo hosted by mageia is not a good idea, we will not >>> start to do repo for all that way. This need to be external, >>> independant repository. >>> If you can host it this would be perfect. >> >> This would be a mess, like previously with Mandriva and its few >> third-party repositories with various quality level, where the distro >> packaging policy can't be enforced. >> This is bad for end-users. >> >> Why not include TrinityDE in Mageia repos? >> If not conflicting with KDE4, not having similar provides, and not even >> installed by default, it seems ok to include it in the distro. > > we will face too many pbs simple question: > > we provide k3b ( kde apps ) trinity provide k3b ( kde3 apps ) Uh, no, k3b-trinity or k3b-kde3 > > files are similar ( or named the same ), how users will distinguish No.. That's the purpose of /opt/kde3 > the version it wants? how to deal with conflicts ? What conflicts? We're installing in a seperate prefix. Also, the RPM requires, provides, conflicts, etc have long been fixed, no?
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:19 PM, Olivier Blin wrote: > Dexter Morgan writes: > >>> I certainly don't have the web space and bandwidth resources for a >>> repository and frankly I joined Mageia as a packager precisely because I >>> thought Mageia would finally make confusing and conflicting third party >>> repos (like Mandriva has) obsolete. >>> >>> >>> We can host repositories for you, if Mageia is unwilling to accept them - >>> you could make a kde3 rpm that adds the necessary sources to use. Or, Mageia >>> could make an official kde3 repository that is disabled by default but can >>> be enabled on installer/rpmdrake. I'm not the expert at this, though :-/ >>> that's mageia dev decisions. >> >> no a special repo hosted by mageia is not a good idea, we will not >> start to do repo for all that way. This need to be external, >> independant repository. >> If you can host it this would be perfect. > > This would be a mess, like previously with Mandriva and its few > third-party repositories with various quality level, where the distro > packaging policy can't be enforced. > This is bad for end-users. > > Why not include TrinityDE in Mageia repos? > If not conflicting with KDE4, not having similar provides, and not even > installed by default, it seems ok to include it in the distro. we will face too many pbs simple question: we provide k3b ( kde apps ) trinity provide k3b ( kde3 apps ) files are similar ( or named the same ), how users will distinguish the version it wants? how to deal with conflicts ?
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Balcaen John wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 22:05 > But as i said before (like others), you should first try to build it > locally, > check it's working, intergrate nicely for menu,kdm then we'll start > thinking > about providing an alternative repository. It goes without saying that I would first build everything locally and test it, I always do that with every package I work on. But like I said, I think a separate/third party repo is a very bad idea, the whole point of Mageia was that (unlike with Mandriva) finally all contributors could join their efforts rather than having separate third party repos all over the place. If now this is no longer the case then I don't really see the point in participating in Mageia as packager. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Dexter Morgan writes: >> I certainly don't have the web space and bandwidth resources for a >> repository and frankly I joined Mageia as a packager precisely because I >> thought Mageia would finally make confusing and conflicting third party >> repos (like Mandriva has) obsolete. >> >> >> We can host repositories for you, if Mageia is unwilling to accept them - >> you could make a kde3 rpm that adds the necessary sources to use. Or, Mageia >> could make an official kde3 repository that is disabled by default but can >> be enabled on installer/rpmdrake. I'm not the expert at this, though :-/ >> that's mageia dev decisions. > > no a special repo hosted by mageia is not a good idea, we will not > start to do repo for all that way. This need to be external, > independant repository. > If you can host it this would be perfect. This would be a mess, like previously with Mandriva and its few third-party repositories with various quality level, where the distro packaging policy can't be enforced. This is bad for end-users. Why not include TrinityDE in Mageia repos? If not conflicting with KDE4, not having similar provides, and not even installed by default, it seems ok to include it in the distro. -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:09 PM, Robert Xu wrote: > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 16:24, Tux99 wrote: > > > I certainly don't have the web space and bandwidth resources for a > repository and frankly I joined Mageia as a packager precisely because I > thought Mageia would finally make confusing and conflicting third party > repos (like Mandriva has) obsolete. > > > We can host repositories for you, if Mageia is unwilling to accept them - > you could make a kde3 rpm that adds the necessary sources to use. Or, Mageia > could make an official kde3 repository that is disabled by default but can > be enabled on installer/rpmdrake. I'm not the expert at this, though :-/ > that's mageia dev decisions. no a special repo hosted by mageia is not a good idea, we will not start to do repo for all that way. This need to be external, independant repository. If you can host it this would be perfect.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Mar 23, 2011, at 16:24, Tux99 wrote: I certainly don't have the web space and bandwidth resources for a repository and frankly I joined Mageia as a packager precisely because I thought Mageia would finally make confusing and conflicting third party repos (like Mandriva has) obsolete. We can host repositories for you, if Mageia is unwilling to accept them - you could make a kde3 rpm that adds the necessary sources to use. Or, Mageia could make an official kde3 repository that is disabled by default but can be enabled on installer/rpmdrake. I'm not the expert at this, though :-/ that's mageia dev decisions.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wednesday 23 March 2011 17:25:25, Tux99 wrote: [...] > I certainly don't have the web space and bandwidth resources for a > repository and frankly I joined Mageia as a packager precisely because I > thought Mageia would finally make confusing and conflicting third party > repos (like Mandriva has) obsolete. If the problem is only for hosting i'm sure we can find a solution. But as i said before (like others), you should first try to build it locally, check it's working, intergrate nicely for menu,kdm then we'll start thinking about providing an alternative repository. Regards, -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Anne nicolas wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 20:47 > > As explained by some guys before, we do not want to have both KDE3 and > 4 in repository. This has been a big pain to make them live together > for some months (even if it looks "easy") and it has been a pain to > clean repository. I know that KDE3/KDE4 coexistence was hard in the beginning in fact in Mdv 2009.0 it was a disaster, but from 2009.1 onwards it has worked perfectly. I have run a few installs (2009.1 and 2010.0) with both KDE3 and KDE4 on the same box without any issues. The existing Mandriva packages from Tim and tarakbumba are a continuation of the official Mandriva KDE3 packages so they don't have any conflicts with KDE4 anymore. Any Mageia TrinityDE packages would be derived from the Mandriva packages so just like the Mandriva packages there is no reason that there should be any problems. TrinityDE is a live FOSS project and is now completely separate from KDE, so excluding it would be like saying we don't include Gnome since we already provide KDE. > Now one solution is to propose a repository dedicated to it on your > side. I certainly don't have the web space and bandwidth resources for a repository and frankly I joined Mageia as a packager precisely because I thought Mageia would finally make confusing and conflicting third party repos (like Mandriva has) obsolete. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
2011/3/23 Maarten Vanraes : > Op woensdag 23 maart 2011 19:22:08 schreef nicolas vigier: >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Robert Xu wrote: >> > And I hate to double post, but I do know that the %configure_kde3 >> > macro should point to /opt/kde3... :) >> >> So that means that all KDE applications will be twice on the repository, >> one for KDE4, and one for TDE ? I think that can be confusing for users. >> >> Packaging and maintaining this is probably a huge task, and can maybe >> cause problems to KDE users if only done half, or incorrectly. I think >> it would be better to start with an external repository. And only import >> on the main repository once everything is working and we have someone >> who plans to maintain it. > > I think this is the big point here. if there isn't anyone willing to maintain > qt3, and someone willing to maintain TDE to the point that it doesn't conflict > at any point with KDE4 and KDE4 apps. > > personally i think that by the time this is well enough tested to be put in to > core/testing, that TDE will likely have "enough" qt4 support. So, if i was > someone who used that, i would build it locally for myself and test it > gradually that way, and not really bother with the whole submission, and > maintaining of every app... (which is likely alot of work; unless noone uses > it) > As explained by some guys before, we do not want to have both KDE3 and 4 in repository. This has been a big pain to make them live together for some months (even if it looks "easy") and it has been a pain to clean repository. Now one solution is to propose a repository dedicated to it on your side. -- Anne http://www.mageia.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Op woensdag 23 maart 2011 19:22:08 schreef nicolas vigier: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Robert Xu wrote: > > And I hate to double post, but I do know that the %configure_kde3 > > macro should point to /opt/kde3... :) > > So that means that all KDE applications will be twice on the repository, > one for KDE4, and one for TDE ? I think that can be confusing for users. > > Packaging and maintaining this is probably a huge task, and can maybe > cause problems to KDE users if only done half, or incorrectly. I think > it would be better to start with an external repository. And only import > on the main repository once everything is working and we have someone > who plans to maintain it. I think this is the big point here. if there isn't anyone willing to maintain qt3, and someone willing to maintain TDE to the point that it doesn't conflict at any point with KDE4 and KDE4 apps. personally i think that by the time this is well enough tested to be put in to core/testing, that TDE will likely have "enough" qt4 support. So, if i was someone who used that, i would build it locally for myself and test it gradually that way, and not really bother with the whole submission, and maintaining of every app... (which is likely alot of work; unless noone uses it)
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 14:50, Tux99 wrote: > > > Where do you have the Fedora and openSUSE spec files? > Those could be useful as reference. > > I will PM you eventually but first I have to have a close look at > everything, SVN write access would be premature for now. > Right now, I'm slowly moving all of them to svn.trinitydesktop.org/svn/trinity-packaging. However, while you can reference them, I am building off of the latest SVN, and may have changes such as using cmake instead of autotools. -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: nicolas vigier wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 19:22 > On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Robert Xu wrote: > > > > > And I hate to double post, but I do know that the %configure_kde3 > > macro should point to /opt/kde3... :) > > So that means that all KDE applications will be twice on the > repository, > one for KDE4, and one for TDE ? I think that can be confusing for > users. KDE3 and KDE4 have coexisted perfectly happily in Mandriva 2009.1 and 2010.0. I don't see why that should be a problem with TDE and KDE4 in Mageia. Robert Xu wrote: > I recommend seeing this message: > http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::593 Thanks, I was aware of the mdv 2010.1 kde 3.5.10 packages from Tim and tarakbumba but I didn't know about the TDE packages. They can certainly be very useful. > I do it for Fedora, and partially for openSUSE with the KDE:KDE3 > maintainer. > I was going to do some for Mandriva, but I've got a lot on my hands > and not a lot of experience with Mandriva/Mageia macros and that > stuff, so I can help, but someone else has to maintain the spec ;) > > (PM me for more info on packaging Trinity, including write access to > the trinity's SVN for packaging) Where do you have the Fedora and openSUSE spec files? Those could be useful as reference. I will PM you eventually but first I have to have a close look at everything, SVN write access would be premature for now. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, Robert Xu wrote: > > And I hate to double post, but I do know that the %configure_kde3 > macro should point to /opt/kde3... :) So that means that all KDE applications will be twice on the repository, one for KDE4, and one for TDE ? I think that can be confusing for users. Packaging and maintaining this is probably a huge task, and can maybe cause problems to KDE users if only done half, or incorrectly. I think it would be better to start with an external repository. And only import on the main repository once everything is working and we have someone who plans to maintain it.
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 13:46, Dexter Morgan wrote: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Tux99 wrote: >> >> >> Quote: Robert Xu wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 16:09 >> >>> Trinity Qt4 support is experimental, you can see it in >>> SVN.trinitydesktop.org >> >> I'm aware of that, that's why I said we need qt3-devel re-enabled in the >> QT3 package. >> I don't want to build the current version with experimental QT4 support. >> >>> And truthfully, if you want to bring Trinity to Mageia, you should >>> wait for release 3.5.13 - because with an autoconf > 2.63, the build >>> breaks. >> >> I'm aware of the autoconf issue but I found a workaround [1] and I have >> managed to build a libtqtinterface RPM so far with the workaround. >> >> Are you a TrinityDE developer? >> I saw your name on the trinity-dev ML. >> If yes then maybe you could be a great help for packaging up TrinityDE on >> Mageia, if you feel like helping with it. :) >> >> Do you know when 3.5.13 will be released? Is the release imminent? >> If it's imminent then I agree it's best to wait. >> >> [1] >> http://cvs.pld-linux.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/packages/libtqtinter >> face/libtqtinterface.spec >> >> -- >> Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/ >> > Hi, > > After looking to the source tarball which is huge ( 600 Mo ), I see some pbs: > > [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ ls > applications/ kdeaccessibility/ kdeadmin/ kdebase/ > kde-common/ kdegames/ kde-i18n/ kdemultimedia/ kdepim/ > kdetoys/ kdevelop/ konstruct/ > dependencies/ kdeaddons/ kdeartwork/ kdebindings/ kdeedu/ > kdegraphics/ kdelibs/ kdenetwork/ kdesdk/ kdeutils/ > kdewebdev/ libraries/ > [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ ls applications/ > abakus/ gtk-qt-engine/ kde-guidance/ > kile/ knights/ ksplash-engine-moodin/ rosegarden/ > adept/ gwenview/ kde-style-lipstik/ > kima/ knowit/ ksquirrel/ > smartcardauth/ > amarok/ k3b/ kde-style-qtcurve/ > kio-apt/ knutclient/ ksystemlog/ smb4k/ > basket/ k9copy/ kdesudo/ > kio-locate/ koffice/ ktechlab/ > soundkonverter/ > compizconfig-backend-kconfig/ kaffeine/ kdesvn/ > kio-umountwrapper/ konversation/ ktorrent/ tellico/ > desktop-effects-kde/ kaffeine-mozilla/ kde-systemsettings/ > kmplayer/ kopete-otr/ kuickshow/ > wlassistant/ > digikam/ katapult/ kdiff3/ > kmyfirewall/ kpicosim/ kvirc/ yakuake/ > dolphin/ kbarcode/ kdirstat/ > knemo/ kpowersave/ kvkbd/ > filelight/ kbfx/ kdmtheme/ > knetload/ kradio/ kwin-style-crystal/ > filelight-l10n/ kchmviewer/ kdpkg/ > knetstats/ krename/ piklab/ > fusion-icon/ kcpuload/ keep/ > knetworkmanager/ krusader/ potracegui/ > [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ > > The issues we see that are blocking are : > > we can't/won't package/add twice the same apps, one for TDE and one > for KDE and this issue is a blocker one. > > I would prefer to see TDE in a external repository for now. ( i.e you > work locally to reenable qt3, package TDE, ... and then we can start > to review all this and talk about integration in mageia ) > > This will mess with menus too because users will have 2 times the > icons of K3b, and can lead to deps issues, files conflicts, how is > called K3b binary files ? k3b ? so it will conflict with "normal" k3b > and so on for the other apps. > > For Robert Xu on opensuse this is a completly != issue as repos are > "seperated", but that would be nice to have a 3rd "external" repo for > this :) > > My 2cts > And I hate to double post, but I do know that the %configure_kde3 macro should point to /opt/kde3... :) -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 13:46, Dexter Morgan wrote: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Tux99 wrote: >> >> >> Quote: Robert Xu wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 16:09 >> >>> Trinity Qt4 support is experimental, you can see it in >>> SVN.trinitydesktop.org >> >> I'm aware of that, that's why I said we need qt3-devel re-enabled in the >> QT3 package. >> I don't want to build the current version with experimental QT4 support. >> >>> And truthfully, if you want to bring Trinity to Mageia, you should >>> wait for release 3.5.13 - because with an autoconf > 2.63, the build >>> breaks. >> >> I'm aware of the autoconf issue but I found a workaround [1] and I have >> managed to build a libtqtinterface RPM so far with the workaround. >> >> Are you a TrinityDE developer? >> I saw your name on the trinity-dev ML. >> If yes then maybe you could be a great help for packaging up TrinityDE on >> Mageia, if you feel like helping with it. :) >> >> Do you know when 3.5.13 will be released? Is the release imminent? >> If it's imminent then I agree it's best to wait. >> >> [1] >> http://cvs.pld-linux.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/packages/libtqtinter >> face/libtqtinterface.spec >> >> -- >> Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/ >> > Hi, > > After looking to the source tarball which is huge ( 600 Mo ), I see some pbs: > > [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ ls > applications/ kdeaccessibility/ kdeadmin/ kdebase/ > kde-common/ kdegames/ kde-i18n/ kdemultimedia/ kdepim/ > kdetoys/ kdevelop/ konstruct/ > dependencies/ kdeaddons/ kdeartwork/ kdebindings/ kdeedu/ > kdegraphics/ kdelibs/ kdenetwork/ kdesdk/ kdeutils/ > kdewebdev/ libraries/ > [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ ls applications/ > abakus/ gtk-qt-engine/ kde-guidance/ > kile/ knights/ ksplash-engine-moodin/ rosegarden/ > adept/ gwenview/ kde-style-lipstik/ > kima/ knowit/ ksquirrel/ > smartcardauth/ > amarok/ k3b/ kde-style-qtcurve/ > kio-apt/ knutclient/ ksystemlog/ smb4k/ > basket/ k9copy/ kdesudo/ > kio-locate/ koffice/ ktechlab/ > soundkonverter/ > compizconfig-backend-kconfig/ kaffeine/ kdesvn/ > kio-umountwrapper/ konversation/ ktorrent/ tellico/ > desktop-effects-kde/ kaffeine-mozilla/ kde-systemsettings/ > kmplayer/ kopete-otr/ kuickshow/ > wlassistant/ > digikam/ katapult/ kdiff3/ > kmyfirewall/ kpicosim/ kvirc/ yakuake/ > dolphin/ kbarcode/ kdirstat/ > knemo/ kpowersave/ kvkbd/ > filelight/ kbfx/ kdmtheme/ > knetload/ kradio/ kwin-style-crystal/ > filelight-l10n/ kchmviewer/ kdpkg/ > knetstats/ krename/ piklab/ > fusion-icon/ kcpuload/ keep/ > knetworkmanager/ krusader/ potracegui/ > [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ > > The issues we see that are blocking are : > > we can't/won't package/add twice the same apps, one for TDE and one > for KDE and this issue is a blocker one. > > I would prefer to see TDE in a external repository for now. ( i.e you > work locally to reenable qt3, package TDE, ... and then we can start > to review all this and talk about integration in mageia ) > > This will mess with menus too because users will have 2 times the > icons of K3b, and can lead to deps issues, files conflicts, how is > called K3b binary files ? k3b ? so it will conflict with "normal" k3b > and so on for the other apps. > > For Robert Xu on opensuse this is a completly != issue as repos are > "seperated", but that would be nice to have a 3rd "external" repo for > this :) > > My 2cts > Hi, You're looking at the 3.5.11 tarball :P Try looking here: http://ppa2.quickbuild.pearsoncomputing.net/redirect.php?file=releases/3.5.12/downloads.html -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: Robert Xu wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 16:09 > >> Trinity Qt4 support is experimental, you can see it in >> SVN.trinitydesktop.org > > I'm aware of that, that's why I said we need qt3-devel re-enabled in the > QT3 package. > I don't want to build the current version with experimental QT4 support. > >> And truthfully, if you want to bring Trinity to Mageia, you should >> wait for release 3.5.13 - because with an autoconf > 2.63, the build >> breaks. > > I'm aware of the autoconf issue but I found a workaround [1] and I have > managed to build a libtqtinterface RPM so far with the workaround. > > Are you a TrinityDE developer? > I saw your name on the trinity-dev ML. > If yes then maybe you could be a great help for packaging up TrinityDE on > Mageia, if you feel like helping with it. :) > > Do you know when 3.5.13 will be released? Is the release imminent? > If it's imminent then I agree it's best to wait. > > [1] > http://cvs.pld-linux.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/packages/libtqtinter > face/libtqtinterface.spec > > -- > Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/ > Hi, After looking to the source tarball which is huge ( 600 Mo ), I see some pbs: [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ ls applications/ kdeaccessibility/ kdeadmin/kdebase/ kde-common/ kdegames/ kde-i18n/ kdemultimedia/ kdepim/ kdetoys/ kdevelop/ konstruct/ dependencies/ kdeaddons/ kdeartwork/ kdebindings/ kdeedu/ kdegraphics/ kdelibs/ kdenetwork/ kdesdk/ kdeutils/ kdewebdev/ libraries/ [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ ls applications/ abakus/gtk-qt-engine/ kde-guidance/ kile/ knights/ ksplash-engine-moodin/ rosegarden/ adept/ gwenview/ kde-style-lipstik/ kima/ knowit/ksquirrel/ smartcardauth/ amarok/k3b/ kde-style-qtcurve/ kio-apt/knutclient/ksystemlog/ smb4k/ basket/k9copy/kdesudo/ kio-locate/ koffice/ ktechlab/ soundkonverter/ compizconfig-backend-kconfig/ kaffeine/ kdesvn/ kio-umountwrapper/ konversation/ ktorrent/ tellico/ desktop-effects-kde/ kaffeine-mozilla/ kde-systemsettings/ kmplayer/ kopete-otr/kuickshow/ wlassistant/ digikam/ katapult/ kdiff3/ kmyfirewall/kpicosim/ kvirc/ yakuake/ dolphin/ kbarcode/ kdirstat/ knemo/ kpowersave/kvkbd/ filelight/ kbfx/ kdmtheme/ knetload/ kradio/kwin-style-crystal/ filelight-l10n/kchmviewer/kdpkg/ knetstats/ krename/ piklab/ fusion-icon/ kcpuload/ keep/ knetworkmanager/krusader/ potracegui/ [dmorgan@localhost kde_trinity_3_5_11]$ The issues we see that are blocking are : we can't/won't package/add twice the same apps, one for TDE and one for KDE and this issue is a blocker one. I would prefer to see TDE in a external repository for now. ( i.e you work locally to reenable qt3, package TDE, ... and then we can start to review all this and talk about integration in mageia ) This will mess with menus too because users will have 2 times the icons of K3b, and can lead to deps issues, files conflicts, how is called K3b binary files ? k3b ? so it will conflict with "normal" k3b and so on for the other apps. For Robert Xu on opensuse this is a completly != issue as repos are "seperated", but that would be nice to have a 3rd "external" repo for this :) My 2cts
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 12:08, Tux99 wrote: > I'm aware of the autoconf issue but I found a workaround [1] and I have > managed to build a libtqtinterface RPM so far with the workaround. I recommend seeing this message: http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::593 > > Are you a TrinityDE developer? > I saw your name on the trinity-dev ML. > If yes then maybe you could be a great help for packaging up TrinityDE on > Mageia, if you feel like helping with it. :) I do it for Fedora, and partially for openSUSE with the KDE:KDE3 maintainer. I was going to do some for Mandriva, but I've got a lot on my hands and not a lot of experience with Mandriva/Mageia macros and that stuff, so I can help, but someone else has to maintain the spec ;) (PM me for more info on packaging Trinity, including write access to the trinity's SVN for packaging) > > Do you know when 3.5.13 will be released? Is the release imminent? > If it's imminent then I agree it's best to wait. > Sadly, no. The real goal of 3.5.13 at the moment is porting to cmake, which is a long and tedious process. If anyone knew cmake well, i'm sure we could speed up the process dramatically. 3.5.14 and 3.5.15 will bring the depreciation of hal and the migration to qt4, respectively (AFAIK) -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Robert Xu wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 16:09 > Trinity Qt4 support is experimental, you can see it in > SVN.trinitydesktop.org I'm aware of that, that's why I said we need qt3-devel re-enabled in the QT3 package. I don't want to build the current version with experimental QT4 support. > And truthfully, if you want to bring Trinity to Mageia, you should > wait for release 3.5.13 - because with an autoconf > 2.63, the build > breaks. I'm aware of the autoconf issue but I found a workaround [1] and I have managed to build a libtqtinterface RPM so far with the workaround. Are you a TrinityDE developer? I saw your name on the trinity-dev ML. If yes then maybe you could be a great help for packaging up TrinityDE on Mageia, if you feel like helping with it. :) Do you know when 3.5.13 will be released? Is the release imminent? If it's imminent then I agree it's best to wait. [1] http://cvs.pld-linux.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/packages/libtqtinter face/libtqtinterface.spec -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 10:01, John wrote: > On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:35:05 +0100 (CET) > Tux99 wrote: > >> >> >> Quote: tux99 wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 13:18 >> > >> > Version 3.5.12 was just released a couple of weeks ago: >> > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases.php >> >> Actually I confused the date :) the current version was released last >> October. >> >> Anyway that doesn't change the fact that QT4 support is still nowhere >> near (the roadmap has it for 2012) and in the meantime I would like to >> have the current version on Mageia. Roadmap is outdated atm. > > +1 > > John > Hi, Trinity Qt4 support is experimental, you can see it in SVN.trinitydesktop.org And truthfully, if you want to bring Trinity to Mageia, you should wait for release 3.5.13 - because with an autoconf > 2.63, the build breaks. -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:35:05 +0100 (CET) Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: tux99 wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 13:18 > > > > Version 3.5.12 was just released a couple of weeks ago: > > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases.php > > Actually I confused the date :) the current version was released last > October. > > Anyway that doesn't change the fact that QT4 support is still nowhere > near (the roadmap has it for 2012) and in the meantime I would like to > have the current version on Mageia. +1 John
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: tux99 wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 13:18 > > Version 3.5.12 was just released a couple of weeks ago: > http://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases.php Actually I confused the date :) the current version was released last October. Anyway that doesn't change the fact that QT4 support is still nowhere near (the roadmap has it for 2012) and in the meantime I would like to have the current version on Mageia. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Quote: Balcaen John wrote on Wed, 23 March 2011 11:37 > > Can we please reenable the qt3-devel package as it's > > required to build the TrinityDE (www.trinitydesktop.org) > Did you rebuild qt3 locally & the whole trinityDE with sucess ? Yes I just rebuilt qt3 locally with -devel with the intention to build TrinityDE. I don't see any reason why TrinityDE shouldn't build, it builds on many current distros since it's being actively developed on current distros. > Maybe we can simply wait for the migration to Qt4 instead of > importing/linking again Qt3 before obsoleting it in 6 months ? The migration to QT4 looks like a long process. In the meantime there is an actively maintained current version of TrinityDE (3.5.12) which I want to use and I imagine there are surely other people who still prefer the look and feel and performance of KDE3.5 upon which TrinityDE is based. Version 3.5.12 was just released a couple of weeks ago: http://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases.php -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wednesday 23 March 2011 07:37:12, Balcaen John wrote: > On Wednesday 23 March 2011 04:49:21, Tux99 wrote: > > I noticed there is no qt-devel rpm in mageia. > > [...] > If i'm not wrong qt3 was simply wrongly imported & pushed. > Also no apps seems to requires it at all (especially when there's no -devel > to link against it) Hum i forgot LSB test while writing :) -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
On Wednesday 23 March 2011 04:49:21, Tux99 wrote: > I noticed there is no qt-devel rpm in mageia. [...] If i'm not wrong qt3 was simply wrongly imported & pushed. Also no apps seems to requires it at all (especially when there's no -devel to link against it) I would suggest to drop it at all in fact. > Can we please reenable the qt3-devel package as it's required to build the > TrinityDE (www.trinitydesktop.org) Did you rebuild qt3 locally & the whole trinityDE with sucess ? Maybe we can simply wait for the migration to Qt4 instead of importing/linking again Qt3 before obsoleting it in 6 months ? Regards, -- Balcaen John
