Re: [Mailman-Users] web interface tuning

[Darich Runyan/OMNI INFOSEC HQ]

Mark,

Users was probably not the best term to use.  I was speaking of  
nefarious bad-doers.  I did not want to have anything internet facing  
that allowed for any type of administration.  Your discussion was  
very helpful and I believe that I know how I am going configure it,  
well, attempt to configure it.

Thanks,
Darich

On Nov 7, 2005, at 11:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Darich Runyan/OMNI INFOSEC HQ wrote:
>>
>> Is there a way to turn off the ability for users to create list and
>> administer list via the web interface while still allowing them to
>> use the web interface for subscribing?
>
> Creating a list from the web requires that the person doing the create
> know the site passord or a special list creator password. There is no
> need for users or list admins to know these passwords, nor do you even
> have to have a list creator or even a site password if you don't want
> them. The list creator password only allows web based list creation.
> The site password allows web based list creation and full
> administration of all site lists.
>
> I'm confused by what you mean by user in this context. Do you mean  
> list
> administrators who are users of your mailman installation or do you
> mean list members?
>
> List administration really requires the web interface as lists  
> can't be
> effectively administered without it. There are two passwords involved.
> The optional moderator password allows access to the admindb interface
> only for dealing with various requests and held messages. The admin
> password allows access to all list administration functions. List
> members in general do not know these passwords.
>
> If you want to prohibit using the admin web interface, set up the list
> yourself and don't tell anyone the list password.
>
> If you want to limit the web admin interface to only certain  
> functions,
> you can change the ADMIN_CATEGORIES list in mm_cfg.py. You can reorder
> the links at the top of the admin pages with this list, and you can
> delete any pages you don't want available. Note however that you can't
> really eliminate the General Options page because unrecognized pages
> always default to the General Options page whether or not it's in
> ADMIN_CATEGORIES.
>
> None of this affects access to the listinfo page and its subscribe and
> unsubscribe functions.
>
> Other than controlling passwords and using ADMIN_CATEGORIES as above,
> you'd have to modify the code in Mailman/Cgi/admin.py or other Cgi
> modules to change the way things work.
>
> But, the simple answer to your question if it means what it says on  
> its
> face is don't tell them the list admin password, the list creator
> password if any and the site password if any.
>
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>

---
Darich Runyan
President/Principal Consultant
Omni Infosec Ltd.
734 Thimble Shoals Blvd.
Newport News, VA 23606
757-876-3805


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Re: [Mailman-Users] SPAM Control

[Chris Barnes]

Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If you want mailman to deal with it, you can use header_filter_rules
> to recognize the headers and act accordingly, but why not just delete
> the spam before it gets to mailman?

That would be fine for MailMan, but not for everyone else (MM exists on 
the main mail server with all the other users).  The users get their 
messages tagged, but not deleted. The reason for this is that no matter 
how good a spam filter is (or in our case - a combination of spam 
filters), there will occationally be the false positive.   Automatically 
deleting false positives can have disasterous effects.


I guess what I am asking is for a way to be MM to process a 
.procmailrc - specific to each list - before distributing to the list.


as an exanoke, this is what I put in my own .procmailrc to handle the 
spam header tags:

# We have 3 spam filters running on the server:
# 1) SpamAssassin (SA) adds the headers "^X-Spam-Level:" and 
"X-Spam-Status:"
#  and if the score is >5, adds "[Spam]" to the Subject line
# 2) BogoFilter adds the header "^X-Bogosity:" with values of "Yes, No, 
Unsure"
# 3) QSF adds the header "X-Spam:" with values of "YES, No".


# Begin recipes for table shown in
# http://physics.tamu.edu/services/comp_support/docs/AntiSpam.html

# Row 2, col 4
# all agree it is ham, no need for learning, but still need the rule
# so processing of this script stops.  Do this one first since 
(hopefully)
# most of the incoming email will match and speed the processing of this 
script
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Ham
* ^X-Spam:.\No
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No,.\score=-
$DEFAULT

# Not in the table, but if SA scores higher than 8, put directly in Spam 
folder
# A score of 8 or more from SA is enough on it's own to be sure it IS 
spam
:0
* ^X-Spam-Level:.\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*
.Spam/


# Row 1, col 1
# Bogo Spam, Qsf Spam, SA ham --> not sure
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Spam
* ^X-Spam:.\Yes
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No,.\score=-
.Unsure/

# Row 1, col 2 & 3
# Bogo Spam, Qsf Spam, SA between 0 & 8 --> spam
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Spam
* ^X-Spam:.\Yes
# no need to check SA score here
.Spam/

# Row 1, col 4
# Bogo yes, both SA and Qsf say Ham --> ham folder for learning
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Spam
* ^X-Spam:.\No
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No,.\score=-
.Ham/

# Row 1, col 5
# Bogo yes, SA 0-5, Qsf no  --> We're not sure
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Spam
* ^X-Spam:.\No
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No
.Unsure/

# Row 1, col 6
# Bogo yes, SA score is 5-8 (yes), put directly in Spam folder
# Qsf ranking doesn't matter if Bogo & SA are that sure.
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Spam
* ^X-Spam-Level:.\*\*\*\*\*
.Spam/

# Row 2, col 1
# Bogo and SA are sure it's ham, Qsf Spam --> ham folder for learning
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Ham
* ^X-Spam:.\Yes
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No,.\score=-
.Ham/

# Row 2, col 2
# Bogo Ham, SA 0-5, Qsf yes --> We're not sure
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Ham
* ^X-Spam:.\Yes
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No
.Unsure/

# Row 2, col 3
# Bogo Ham, SA 5-8, Qsf yes --> We're not sure
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Ham
* ^X-Spam:.\Yes
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\Yes
.Unsure/

# Row 2, col 5
# Bogo no, SA 0-5, Qsf no  --> Ham for learning
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Ham
* ^X-Spam:.\No
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No
.Ham/

# Row 2, col 6
# Bogo no, SA 5-8, Qsf no  --> Not sure
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Ham
* ^X-Spam:.\No
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\Yes
.Unsure/

# Row 3, col 1
# Bogo Unsure, SA negative, Qsf yes --> Unsure
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Unsure
* ^X-Spam:.\Yes
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No,.\score=-
.Unsure/

# Row 3, col 2
# Bogo Unsure, SA 0-5, Qsf yes --> more likely, but still Unsure
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Unsure
* ^X-Spam:.\Yes
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No
.Unsure/

# Row 3, col 3
# Bogo Unsure, SA 5-8, Qsf yes --> sure enough to put in Spam
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Unsure
* ^X-Spam:.\Yes
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\Yes
.Spam/

# Row 3, col 4 & 5 (together)
# Bogo unsure, SA & Qsf say ham --> Ham for learning
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Unsure
* ^X-Spam:.\No
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\No
.Ham/

# Row 3, col 6
# Bogo unsure, SA 5-8, Qsf No --> Unsure (only SA says yes)
:0
* ^X-Bogosity:.\Unsure
* ^X-Spam:.\No
* ^X-Spam-Status:.\Yes
.Unsure/


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+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes   AOL IM: CNBarnes
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes



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[Mailman-Users] Majordomo to mailman

[Lyn Rees]

Hi,

I'm sure this has been asked before but I couldn't find anything recent
anywhere.

We have around 3000 lists in majordomo at the moment, but are due to
change to mailman. We will run the two services side by side for a while
if we need to, however we will need to migrate lists somehow either in
one big bang or as we receive requests to do so.

Are there any tools, scripts etc. for migration from majordomo to
mailman. Please bear in mind that we have over 3000 lists.

Thanks,

Lyn Rees.

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[Mailman-Users] [OTAnn] Feedback

[shenanigans]

I was interested in getting feedback from current mail group users.

We have mirrored your mail list in a new application that provides a more 
aggregated and safe environment which utilizes the power of broadband.

Roomity.com v 1.5 is a web 2.01 community webapp. Our newest version adds 
broadcast video and social networking such as favorite authors and an html 
editor.

It?s free to join and any feedback would be appreciated.

S.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] SPAM Control

[Mark Sapiro]

Chris Barnes wrote:
>
>I guess what I am asking is for a way to be MM to process a 
>.procmailrc - specific to each list - before distributing to the list.

I think header_filter_rules is lacking one thing that would allow your
simply dropping your procmail recipes directly in, and that is the
fact that if you list multiple re's in a rule, they are always OR'd,
not ANDed.

I have no experience with the first part of this, but it may be
possible to use your list aliases to invoke procmail instead of
mailman and then have the procmail recipes either delete the mail or
deliver it to the appropriate wrapper command. I do have experience
with delivering from procmail to mailman in a different context, and
that works well.

The specifics in my case are that all mail to a particular virtual
domain is delivered to procmail which has recipes for delivering to
various 'generic' addresses in the domain and recipes like


EnvelopeTo = $1

...

# LISTNAME mailman list
:E
* EnvelopeTo ?? ^LISTNAME$
|sudo -u mailman /var/mailman/mail/mailman post LISTNAME
:E
* EnvelopeTo ?? ^LISTNAME-admin$
|sudo -u mailman /var/mailman/mail/mailman admin LISTNAME
...


Depending on how this is set up, you may or may not need sudo and an
appropriate entry in /etc/sudoers.

Having Mailman actually invoke procmail after receiving the mail to
implement spam filtering might be doable too, although it would be
better to do it as above if possible, i.e., before the mail gets to
mailman. You could try implementing a new handler and putting it first
in the pipeline (you test with a test list with it's own pipeline
attribute and after you're satisfied, but it in GLOBAL_PIPELINE and
OWNER_PIPELINE). The handler could invoke procmail to apply the
recipes in a .procmailrc.

Another drawback to both this added handler and header_filter_rules, is
they are only applied to posts and messages to -owner and not to
messages to -bounces, etc. Thus, it is best if you can arrange to not
deliver the spam to Mailman in the first place.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Majordomo to mailman

[Mark Sapiro]

Lyn Rees wrote:
>
>We have around 3000 lists in majordomo at the moment, but are due to
>change to mailman. We will run the two services side by side for a while
>if we need to, however we will need to migrate lists somehow either in
>one big bang or as we receive requests to do so.
>
>Are there any tools, scripts etc. for migration from majordomo to
>mailman. Please bear in mind that we have over 3000 lists.

There is a Perl script in the distribution at
contrib/majordomo2mailman.pl. It is old and designed for Mailman 2.0,
but you might be able to use it as a basis to make something better.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] HELP, using WIN XP Pro, Admin panel problems

[Bob Bales]

I am a novice at this, so be easy. I am running mailman for a friend of
mine. I loaded it from the cpanel of the host. The message system seems to
be working fine. The Admin Panel is giving me fits. I can sign in and make a
change, when I press to submit the changes it takes me back to the sign in
page, I re-sign in and the chnage has not taken place. Subscibers have the
sane problem when they try to sitch from or to non-digets/digets. Anybody
have some help out there? I'm pulling my hair out right now.

Thanks,
Bob Bales
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Re: [Mailman-Users] HELP, using WIN XP Pro, Admin panel problems

[Mark Sapiro]

Bob Bales wrote:

>I am a novice at this, so be easy. I am running mailman for a friend of
>mine. I loaded it from the cpanel of the host. The message system seems to
>be working fine. The Admin Panel is giving me fits. I can sign in and make a
>change, when I press to submit the changes it takes me back to the sign in
>page, I re-sign in and the chnage has not taken place. Subscibers have the
>sane problem when they try to sitch from or to non-digets/digets. Anybody
>have some help out there? I'm pulling my hair out right now.

This is typically caused by not accepting cookies in your browser, but
since it appears to be a global issue, it may have something to do
with the server's sending/receiving of cookies.

Also see

and
.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Slow Outgoing Queue

[Harold Paulson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hello,

I am having trouble with a slow outgoing queue.  I am running Mailman 
2.1.6 on FreeBSD 4.11.

Here is an example of a slow email traced through Mailman's logs:

At 10:18, a message is sent to the moderated "students" list I host, 
and held:
logs/vette:Nov 08 10:18:28 2005 (3640) Students post from 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] held, 
message-id=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Post to moderated list

At 10:24 the moderator approved the message for posting:
logs/vette:Nov 08 10:24:25 2005 (91201) held message approved, 
message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

At this point, if I understand correctly, the message should be sitting 
in queue/out, waiting for a queue-runner process to send it out.  There 
were between 80 and 100 .pck files in queue/out at this time.  What is 
the outgoing qrunner doing?  Eating RAM, mainly:

# ps auxwww | grep OutgoingRunner
mailman   3641  1.2  9.5 107680 99240  ??  S13Oct05 288:04.50 
/usr/local/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner - 
--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s

That process appeared to remain fairly idle, using over 100M of RAM for 
almost an hour:

logs/post:Nov 08 11:18:45 2005 (3641) post to students from 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], size=5383, 
message-id=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, success

And finally, actual delivery went out at a modest but acceptable 
6msg/sec
logs/smtp:Nov 08 11:18:45 2005 (3641) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
smtp to students for 1642 recips, completed in 252.164 seconds

Any idea what is causing the holdup for outgoing messages?  Any tips 
that will help me trace this down?  Thanks in advance.

- H






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Re: [Mailman-Users] Slow Outgoing Queue

[Mark Sapiro]

Harold Paulson wrote:
>
>I am having trouble with a slow outgoing queue.  I am running Mailman 
>2.1.6 on FreeBSD 4.11.
>

>
>Any idea what is causing the holdup for outgoing messages?  Any tips 
>that will help me trace this down?  Thanks in advance.


Visit the FAQ wizard
>Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
and search for performance.

several relevant articles will be found. Note the following from 4.11

* Configure your MTA to not do DNS verifies on receipt from localhost.
Most MTAs default to doing verifies by default. Leaving that turned on
will slow delivery rates from mailman to your MTA significantly,
especially for larger lists.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] post a message to list, but no response

[Andy Gao]

Hi,

I am new to mailman. I installed mailman2.1.6 on my fedora core 3 machine
from source. I used sendmail8.13.1-2 as MTA.

I set up a new list, say [EMAIL PROTECTED], and I can subscribe to the list
and I also get the mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to confirm my subscrision.

But when I submit a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED], I don't get the email
response and there is no archive message.

(BTW, I skipped mm-handler for mailman sendmail integration, and manually
add the list to /etc/aliases then run newaliases. Will that be a problem?
And also I am confused with the "DEFAULT_URL_HOST" and "DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST"
in the mmcfg.py configuration. I set them to example.com.
Is that correct?)

I followed the instruction on
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp,
and everything seems to be working well.

except
1. there is error msg in smtp-error: "Nov 08 13:02:03 2005 (14693) SMTP
session failure: 554, 5.3.5 buildaddr: unknown mailer mailman,..."



(I guess something wrong with my host and domain setup in sendmail  but
i am not sure since i am new to both software)

Thank you for your help.

andy
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[Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skype could pose security problems for companies, analysts say

[Jared Rimer]

Hi all,
 I had sent this to the list owners of the particular list 
I'm subscribed to that generates this message, but why is it coming 
back to me instead of mailman?
>X-Persona: 
>X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on wmailapp7-l3.webley
>X-Spam-Level:
>X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME,
> SUBJECT_EXCESS_QP autolearn=no version=3.1.0
>Received: (qmail 6096 invoked by uid 89); 8 Nov 2005 18:31:40 -
>Received: from msb.k12.mo.us (HELO mail.msb.k12.mo.us) (204.184.187.1)
>   by 0 with SMTP; 8 Nov 2005 18:31:40 -
>Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:31:34 -0600
>Subject: NDN: [Users] Skype could pose security problems for 
>companies, analysts
>  say
>X-FC-Icon-ID: 2031
>X-FC-SERVER-TZ: 181273064
>X-FC-MachineGenerated: true
>To: "Jared Rimer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:
>
>jpalmer,FirstClass (The name was not found at the remote site. Check that
>the name has been entered correctly.)

Jared Rimer
Business website: http://www.superior-software.com/support
Personal Website: http://www.asmodean.net/jrimer
Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired  http://menvi.org a 
service done through Superior Software level one
WBBY Internet Radio and All In Play team up.  Learn more 
http://www.menvi.org/allinplay
WBBY Internet Radio: www.wbby.us 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] post a message to list, but no response

[Mark Sapiro]

Andy Gao wrote:
>
>I am new to mailman. I installed mailman2.1.6 on my fedora core 3 machine
>from source. I used sendmail8.13.1-2 as MTA.
>
>I set up a new list, say [EMAIL PROTECTED], and I can subscribe to the list
>and I also get the mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED] to confirm my subscrision.


Do you subscribe via email or web?


>But when I submit a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED], I don't get the email
>response and there is no archive message.
>
>(BTW, I skipped mm-handler for mailman sendmail integration, and manually
>add the list to /etc/aliases then run newaliases. Will that be a problem?


Not if you do it right. See below.


>And also I am confused with the "DEFAULT_URL_HOST" and "DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST"
>in the mmcfg.py configuration. I set them to example.com.
>Is that correct?)


I think so. I think you are saying you want to send email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and visit the web interfaces at
http://example.com/mailman/, and that you put

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'example.com'

and

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'example.com'

in mm_cfg.py. This is correct, but if these are not the values in
Defaults.py, you need

add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

following the new assignments in mm_cfg.py, and you probably want to
first clear the Defaults.py entry with

VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()

so that in mm_cfg.py, you have:

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'example.com'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'example.com'
VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

in that order.

This is not the reason for your current problem.


>I followed the instruction on
>http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq03.014.htp,
>and everything seems to be working well.
>
>except
>1. there is error msg in smtp-error: "Nov 08 13:02:03 2005 (14693) SMTP
>session failure: 554, 5.3.5 buildaddr: unknown mailer mailman,..."


This is a sendmail log, right? It indicates a sendmail configuration or
aliases problem. What do your aliases look like? Is the path to the
mailman wrapper correct?

I assume you are subscribing via the web, since whatever this issue is,
it would probably affect email subscribes as well as posts.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skype could pose securityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Mark Sapiro]

Jared Rimer wrote:

> I had sent this to the list owners of the particular list 
>I'm subscribed to that generates this message, but why is it coming 
>back to me instead of mailman?
>>X-Persona: 
>>X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on wmailapp7-l3.webley
>>X-Spam-Level:
>>X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME,
>> SUBJECT_EXCESS_QP autolearn=no version=3.1.0
>>Received: (qmail 6096 invoked by uid 89); 8 Nov 2005 18:31:40 -
>>Received: from msb.k12.mo.us (HELO mail.msb.k12.mo.us) (204.184.187.1)
>>   by 0 with SMTP; 8 Nov 2005 18:31:40 -
>>Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:31:34 -0600
>>Subject: NDN: [Users] Skype could pose security problems for 
>>companies, analysts
>>  say
>>X-FC-Icon-ID: 2031
>>X-FC-SERVER-TZ: 181273064
>>X-FC-MachineGenerated: true
>>To: "Jared Rimer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>>
>>Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:
>>
>>jpalmer,FirstClass (The name was not found at the remote site. Check that
>>the name has been entered correctly.)


Because the incoming MTA at msb.k12.mo.us does not know where to
properly return a delivery status nonification and it is sending it to
the author of the original mail (you) instead of the envelope sender.

Unfortunately, these non-compliant servers abound. There's nothing you
can do about it other than possibly redirecting it to the appropriate
-bounces' address at the site you mailed to.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Slow Outgoing Queue

[Harold Paulson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mark,

Thank you for your quick reply.

On Nov 8, 2005, at 12:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

[deletia]

> Visit the FAQ wizard
>> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
> and search for performance.

I am familiar with the optimization tips in the excellent FAQ, and have 
used them in the past to configure my MTA (Postfix).  I do not believe 
this is an MTA issue.  If you will review the Mailman logs I posted, 
you will see that the delay is almost entirely within the Mailman 
queue:

logs/vette:Nov 08 10:24:25 2005 (91201) held message approved, 
message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

logs/post:Nov 08 11:18:45 2005 (3641) post to students from 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], size=5383, 
message-id=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, success

As you can see, nearly an hour elapsed between the time the message was 
approved by a list moderator, and the time Mailman *started* delivery.  
I would not expect that the MTA is involved in that part of the 
process, at all.

When the message was sent, it was delivered at about 6 messages per 
second.  Not great, but good enough for my purposes.

So what happened in that hour?
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

iD8DBQFDcSwHOy/dHTCUq6oRAniRAKCyw8UrE6K5cAO9iw1uYGtKTxkI7QCg1Wj9
V1E2rc9er84ocT8lbBLt+Wg=
=YN9v
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Slow Outgoing Queue

[Mark Sapiro]

Harold Paulson wrote:
>
>On Nov 8, 2005, at 12:19 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>[deletia]
>
>> Visit the FAQ wizard
>>> Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
>> and search for performance.
>
>I am familiar with the optimization tips in the excellent FAQ, and have 
>used them in the past to configure my MTA (Postfix).  I do not believe 
>this is an MTA issue.  If you will review the Mailman logs I posted, 
>you will see that the delay is almost entirely within the Mailman 
>queue:
>
>logs/vette:Nov 08 10:24:25 2005 (91201) held message approved, 
>message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>logs/post:Nov 08 11:18:45 2005 (3641) post to students from 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED], size=5383, 
>message-id=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, success
>
>As you can see, nearly an hour elapsed between the time the message was 
>approved by a list moderator, and the time Mailman *started* delivery.  
>I would not expect that the MTA is involved in that part of the 
>process, at all.


Except that the delay is likely because the OutgoingRunner was
slugishly making its way through the "between 80 and 100 .pck files in
queue/out at this time", each of which is a separate message to be
delivered.

The question is why is OutgoingRunner so slow as to create such a
backlog or perhaps what happened to dump all these messages into the
queue at once.

Also, there could be an issue with the qfiles/out directory being
physically large even if it only contains a smaller nubmer of entries
now, although that should only affect storing new queue entries, not
retrieving them. See the post at

for more info on this and some other tips too.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skype could pose securityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Jared Rimer]

So, I would have to redirect it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for example then?

At 13:19 11/8/2005, you wrote:
>Jared Rimer wrote:
>
> > I had sent this to the list owners of the particular list
> >I'm subscribed to that generates this message, but why is it coming
> >back to me instead of mailman?
> >>X-Persona: 
> >>X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0 (2005-09-13) on 
> wmailapp7-l3.webley
> >>X-Spam-Level:
> >>X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME,
> >> SUBJECT_EXCESS_QP autolearn=no version=3.1.0
> >>Received: (qmail 6096 invoked by uid 89); 8 Nov 2005 18:31:40 -
> >>Received: from msb.k12.mo.us (HELO mail.msb.k12.mo.us) (204.184.187.1)
> >>   by 0 with SMTP; 8 Nov 2005 18:31:40 -
> >>Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:31:34 -0600
> >>Subject: NDN: [Users] Skype could pose security problems for
> >>companies, analysts
> >>  say
> >>X-FC-Icon-ID: 2031
> >>X-FC-SERVER-TZ: 181273064
> >>X-FC-MachineGenerated: true
> >>To: "Jared Rimer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>MIME-Version: 1.0
> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> >>
> >>Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:
> >>
> >>jpalmer,FirstClass (The name was not found at the remote site. Check that
> >>the name has been entered correctly.)
>
>
>Because the incoming MTA at msb.k12.mo.us does not know where to
>properly return a delivery status nonification and it is sending it to
>the author of the original mail (you) instead of the envelope sender.
>
>Unfortunately, these non-compliant servers abound. There's nothing you
>can do about it other than possibly redirecting it to the appropriate
>-bounces' address at the site you mailed to.
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

Jared Rimer
Business website: http://www.superior-software.com/support
Personal Website: http://www.asmodean.net/jrimer
Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired  http://menvi.org a 
service done through Superior Software level one
WBBY Internet Radio and All In Play team up.  Learn more 
http://www.menvi.org/allinplay
WBBY Internet Radio: www.wbby.us 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Slow Outgoing Queue

[Harold Paulson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mark,

>> As you can see, nearly an hour elapsed between the time the message 
>> was
>> approved by a list moderator, and the time Mailman *started* delivery.
>> I would not expect that the MTA is involved in that part of the
>> process, at all.
>
>
> Except that the delay is likely because the OutgoingRunner was
> slugishly making its way through the "between 80 and 100 .pck files in
> queue/out at this time", each of which is a separate message to be
> delivered.

Each .pck is a separate email message (to one recipient)?  Or each one 
is a separate post with many recipients?  Is 80-100 items in queue/out 
a lot?

I have another MLM that typically hands messages off to this MTA at 
20-30/second, and I wrote it, so I know it isn't fast.  :)

  Does Mailman send messages out serially?


> The question is why is OutgoingRunner so slow as to create such a
> backlog or perhaps what happened to dump all these messages into the
> queue at once.

Is there any way for me to examine these files?  Or do I need to be a 
Python programmer for that?


> Also, there could be an issue with the qfiles/out directory being
> physically large even if it only contains a smaller nubmer of entries
> now, although that should only affect storing new queue entries, not
> retrieving them. See the post at
> 
> for more info on this and some other tips too.

Aha!  There is one very big file in there.  I shall whack it.

- H


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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (Darwin)

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12sx5lvKftodRHFNHICSr4E=
=F2aA
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skype could posesecurityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Mark Sapiro]

Jared Rimer wrote:

>So, I would have to redirect it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for example then?
>

in response to:
>>
>>Unfortunately, these non-compliant servers abound. There's nothing you
>>can do about it other than possibly redirecting it to the appropriate
>>-bounces' address at the site you mailed to.

Normally, yes, but I think you said this bounce was in response to a
message you sent to  the users-owner address. Messages sent to a
-owner address are delivered with an envelope from the
site_list-bounces (normally mailman-bounces, but the site list could
have another name).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Slow Outgoing Queue

[Mark Sapiro]

Harold Paulson wrote:
>
>Each .pck is a separate email message (to one recipient)?  Or each one 
>is a separate post with many recipients?  Is 80-100 items in queue/out 
>a lot?


Each .pck is a message. it could be a post in which case it identifies
all the recipients in one .pck or it could be something like a
password reminder or a subscription confirmation with only one
recipient.

80-100 seems like a lot, but it may not be. Are these files current?
what's in them (see below).


>I have another MLM that typically hands messages off to this MTA at 
>20-30/second, and I wrote it, so I know it isn't fast.  :)
>
>  Does Mailman send messages out serially?

Yes, unless you slice the queue and have multiple runners which I can
see you don't from:

# ps auxwww | grep OutgoingRunner
mailman   3641  1.2  9.5 107680 99240  ??  S13Oct05 288:04.50 
/usr/local/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qrunner - 
--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s


>> The question is why is OutgoingRunner so slow as to create such a
>> backlog or perhaps what happened to dump all these messages into the
>> queue at once.
>
>Is there any way for me to examine these files?  Or do I need to be a 
>Python programmer for that?


bin/show_qfiles and bin/dumpdb can both be used. Give the command with
the --help option for details.

Also, it might be revealing to look at Mailman's 'smtp' log to see
what, if anything, it accomplished between 10:24:25 and 11:14:33
(11:18:45 - 252 seconds).


>> Also, there could be an issue with the qfiles/out directory being
>> physically large even if it only contains a smaller nubmer of entries
>> now, although that should only affect storing new queue entries, not
>> retrieving them. See the post at
>> 
>> for more info on this and some other tips too.
>
>Aha!  There is one very big file in there.  I shall whack it.


I didn't mean a big qfiles/out/*.pck file. I meant if you do

ls -l qfiles

giving something like

total 152
drwxrwsr-x  2 mailman mailman  4096 Nov  8 16:16 archive
drwxrwsr-x  2 mailman mailman  4096 Nov  8 16:16 bounces
drwxrwsr-x  2 mailman mailman  4096 Nov  8 09:34 commands
drwxrwsr-x  2 mailman mailman  4096 Nov  8 16:16 in
drwxrwsr-x  2 mailman mailman  4096 Sep 22  2004 news
drwxrwsr-x  2 apache  mailman 86016 Nov  8 16:16 out
drwxrwsr-x  2 mailman mailman  4096 Nov 15  2004 retry
drwxrwsr-x  2 mailman mailman  4096 Sep 22  2004 shunt
drwxrwsr-x  2 rootmailman 36864 Nov  8 16:16 virgin

Is the size of the out/ directory way big (here it is 21 times the
minimum which is big, but not WAY big). in this example, the out and
virgin queue directories likely got big as a result of a large mass
subscribe with notices generating a large number of messages at once
or something similar.

These queues except shunt and maybe retry are normally empty in a
quiescent Mailman. When the directories themselves are physically
large on disk, it takes extra searching to add new entries because the
entire physical directory must be searched each time to verify the
entry doesn't already exist.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skype could posesecurityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Jared Rimer]

Let me try again.  The mailing list is [EMAIL PROTECTED]  When I 
send to that list, I get the message I sent to this list back.  I 
snet the message to mail over to [EMAIL PROTECTED] to alert 
them to this.  No response.  Is there another address like 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] that I should be sending this to?

At 16:14 11/8/2005, you wrote:
>Jared Rimer wrote:
>
> >So, I would have to redirect it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for 
> example then?
> >
>
>in response to:
> >>
> >>Unfortunately, these non-compliant servers abound. There's nothing you
> >>can do about it other than possibly redirecting it to the appropriate
> >>-bounces' address at the site you mailed to.
>
>Normally, yes, but I think you said this bounce was in response to a
>message you sent to  the users-owner address. Messages sent to a
>-owner address are delivered with an envelope from the
>site_list-bounces (normally mailman-bounces, but the site list could
>have another name).
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

Jared Rimer
Business website: http://www.superior-software.com/support
Personal Website: http://www.asmodean.net/jrimer
Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired  http://menvi.org a 
service done through Superior Software level one
WBBY Internet Radio and All In Play team up.  Learn more 
http://www.menvi.org/allinplay
WBBY Internet Radio: www.wbby.us 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skype couldposesecurityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Mark Sapiro]

Jared Rimer wrote:

>Let me try again.  The mailing list is [EMAIL PROTECTED]  When I 
>send to that list, I get the message I sent to this list back.


Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought the message you posted came back when
you emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED]


>I 
>snet the message to mail over to [EMAIL PROTECTED] to alert 
>them to this.  No response.  Is there another address like 
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] that I should be sending this to?


No. The bounce you received in response to your post can be handled in
two ways. You can forward it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] just exactly
as you did.

In addition or instead, you can 'redirect/resend/bounce' it to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] so it will be properly registered as a
bounce. Note, you have to redirect it in a way that preserves it as
'top level' message. If you can't do that, there is no point in
forwarding it in a way that wraps it in an outer message as it will
simply be an unrecognized bounce when received.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skype couldposesecurityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Jared Rimer]

Would the Eudora redirect work?

At 18:07 11/8/2005, you wrote:
>Jared Rimer wrote:
>
> >Let me try again.  The mailing list is [EMAIL PROTECTED]  When I
> >send to that list, I get the message I sent to this list back.
>
>
>Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought the message you posted came back when
>you emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> >I
> >snet the message to mail over to [EMAIL PROTECTED] to alert
> >them to this.  No response.  Is there another address like
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] that I should be sending this to?
>
>
>No. The bounce you received in response to your post can be handled in
>two ways. You can forward it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] just exactly
>as you did.
>
>In addition or instead, you can 'redirect/resend/bounce' it to
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] so it will be properly registered as a
>bounce. Note, you have to redirect it in a way that preserves it as
>'top level' message. If you can't do that, there is no point in
>forwarding it in a way that wraps it in an outer message as it will
>simply be an unrecognized bounce when received.
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

Jared Rimer
Business website: http://www.superior-software.com/support
Personal Website: http://www.asmodean.net/jrimer
Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired  http://menvi.org a 
service done through Superior Software level one
WBBY Internet Radio and All In Play team up.  Learn more 
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WBBY Internet Radio: www.wbby.us 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skypecouldposesecurityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Jared Rimer]

I don't understand the second paragraph.

At 20:26 11/8/2005, you wrote:
>Jared Rimer wrote:
>
> >Would the Eudora redirect work?
>
>It might. It removes a bunch of headers and replaces others and rewraps
>the message body, but it might work. You could try it, but you'd never
>know if it worked or not, since if the bounce were unrecognized, it
>would just go to the list owner assuming the option to notify the list
>owner was even selected.
>
>The best thing is if the host is using VERP like envelope sender, and
>you can determine the actual bouncing user's address, you could
>redirect the notice to
>[EMAIL PROTECTED], and then it
>will always be recognized.
>
>If the previous paragraph is not clear, check the Return-Path:, Sender:
>or Errors-To: header in any message you have received from the
>mailman-users@python.org list.
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

Jared Rimer
Business website: http://www.superior-software.com/support
Personal Website: http://www.asmodean.net/jrimer
Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired  http://menvi.org a 
service done through Superior Software level one
WBBY Internet Radio and All In Play team up.  Learn more 
http://www.menvi.org/allinplay
WBBY Internet Radio: www.wbby.us 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users] Skypecouldposesecurityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Mark Sapiro]

Jared Rimer wrote:

>Would the Eudora redirect work?

It might. It removes a bunch of headers and replaces others and rewraps
the message body, but it might work. You could try it, but you'd never
know if it worked or not, since if the bounce were unrecognized, it
would just go to the list owner assuming the option to notify the list
owner was even selected.

The best thing is if the host is using VERP like envelope sender, and
you can determine the actual bouncing user's address, you could
redirect the notice to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], and then it
will always be recognized.

If the previous paragraph is not clear, check the Return-Path:, Sender:
or Errors-To: header in any message you have received from the
mailman-users@python.org list.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users]Skypecouldposesecurityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Mark Sapiro]

Jared Rimer wrote:

>I don't understand the second paragraph.
>
>At 20:26 11/8/2005, you wrote:
>>Jared Rimer wrote:
>>
>> >Would the Eudora redirect work?
>>
>>It might. It removes a bunch of headers and replaces others and rewraps
>>the message body, but it might work. You could try it, but you'd never
>>know if it worked or not, since if the bounce were unrecognized, it
>>would just go to the list owner assuming the option to notify the list
>>owner was even selected.
>>
>>The best thing is if the host is using VERP like envelope sender, and
>>you can determine the actual bouncing user's address, you could
>>redirect the notice to
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED], and then it
>>will always be recognized.
>>
>>If the previous paragraph is not clear, check the Return-Path:, Sender:
>>or Errors-To: header in any message you have received from the
>>mailman-users@python.org list.


OK. I removed you from the To: list of this post so the copy you are
reading came to you from the list. The envelope was sent to you by
[EMAIL PROTECTED] which may be
reflected in a Return-Path: header in the message, and that address is
also in the Sender: and Errors-To: headers of the message. This is
called a VERP (Variable Envelope Return Path) like address. It is
"VERP like" because it is addressed that way by Mailman as opposed to
true VERP which would be done by the MTA.

If such a message bounces and is properly returned, it will be returned
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] which will be
delivered the same as if it were returned to
[EMAIL PROTECTED], but the extra address information is
available to the bounce processor so it can unequivocally determin the
bouncing address.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Tangential Delivery Question

[David Hwang]

I know this is probably tangential to the purpose of the list, but

people here have been very friendly and helpful in my quest to get 
mailman up and running on my Trustix system.

I was following the mail delivery logs and came across some odd errors 
that I'm hoping someone can help me decipher and  ultimately find a fix.

Or if someone has a suggestion where a better place to ask might be, I'd 
appreciate that as well.

This is what I'm seeing:

Nov  8 01:10:04 m5 postfix/smtp[1035]: 9CD0117F3B: 
to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=gateway-s.comcast.net[63.240.76.26], d
elay=58387, status=deferred (host gateway-s.comcast.net[63.240.76.26] 
said: 450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net requires valid sende
r domain (in reply to RCPT TO command))
Nov  8 01:10:04 m5 postfix/smtp[1040]: 9608F17F45: 
to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=gateway-r.comcast.net[204.127.198.26],
delay=13841, status=deferred (host 
gateway-r.comcast.net[204.127.198.26] said: 450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net 
requires valid s
ender domain (in reply to RCPT TO command))
Nov  8 01:10:05 m5 postfix/smtp[1043]: 5B71317F43: 
to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=gateway-r.comcast.net[204.127.198.26], de
lay=5035, status=deferred (host gateway-r.comcast.net[204.127.198.26] 
said: 450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net requires valid sende
r domain (in reply to RCPT TO command))
Nov  8 01:10:07 m5 postfix/smtp[1030]: 6F0C917F47: 
to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=gateway-r.comcast.net[216.148.227.126], d
elay=4409, status=deferred (host gateway-r.comcast.net[216.148.227.126] 
said: 450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net requires valid sen
der domain (in reply to RCPT TO command))


What does "comcast.net requires valid sender domain (in reply to RCPT TO 
command))" mean?

I assume that I've got something wrong in my configuration (Postfix, 
Spamassassin, Amavisd, Mailman) or in my DNS, but where should I start 
debugging?

Thanks,
David Hwang





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Re: [Mailman-Users] Tangential Delivery Question

[Mark Sapiro]

David Hwang wrote:

>I know this is probably tangential to the purpose of the list, but
>
>people here have been very friendly and helpful in my quest to get 
>mailman up and running on my Trustix system.
>
>I was following the mail delivery logs and came across some odd errors 
>that I'm hoping someone can help me decipher and  ultimately find a fix.
>
>Or if someone has a suggestion where a better place to ask might be, I'd 
>appreciate that as well.


You're right. This is off topic for this list, but ...


>This is what I'm seeing:
>
>Nov  8 01:10:04 m5 postfix/smtp[1035]: 9CD0117F3B: 
>to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=gateway-s.comcast.net[63.240.76.26], d
>elay=58387, status=deferred (host gateway-s.comcast.net[63.240.76.26] 
>said: 450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net requires valid sende
>r domain (in reply to RCPT TO command))
>Nov  8 01:10:04 m5 postfix/smtp[1040]: 9608F17F45: 
>to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=gateway-r.comcast.net[204.127.198.26],
>delay=13841, status=deferred (host 
>gateway-r.comcast.net[204.127.198.26] said: 450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net 
>requires valid s
>ender domain (in reply to RCPT TO command))
>Nov  8 01:10:05 m5 postfix/smtp[1043]: 5B71317F43: 
>to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=gateway-r.comcast.net[204.127.198.26], de
>lay=5035, status=deferred (host gateway-r.comcast.net[204.127.198.26] 
>said: 450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net requires valid sende
>r domain (in reply to RCPT TO command))
>Nov  8 01:10:07 m5 postfix/smtp[1030]: 6F0C917F47: 
>to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=gateway-r.comcast.net[216.148.227.126], d
>elay=4409, status=deferred (host gateway-r.comcast.net[216.148.227.126] 
>said: 450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net requires valid sen
>der domain (in reply to RCPT TO command))
>
>
>What does "comcast.net requires valid sender domain (in reply to RCPT TO 
>command))" mean?


I've seen this before and here's what's happening. Your postfix is
trying to deliver a message to these users in the comcast.net domain.
It establishes an SMTP connection with an SMTP server at
gateway-r.comcast.net. It starts by identifying itself with a HELO or
EHLO command, e.g.

EHLO your_domain

or similar and receives an afirmative reply

It then says

MAIL FROM 

to initiate sending mail. This specifies the sender of the envelope. It
gets an afirmative reply and then sends

RCPT TO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

for example, and receives

450 [TEMPFAIL] comcast.net requires valid sender domain

in reply. This means gateway-r.comcast.net didn't like the domain part
of . Maybe it's missing. Maybe it doesn't have a DNS
entry. Normally, it is set by the originator of the mail - Mailman if
it is delivery of a list post, your MUA if it is a mail you composed
and sent.


>I assume that I've got something wrong in my configuration (Postfix, 
>Spamassassin, Amavisd, Mailman) or in my DNS, but where should I start 
>debugging?


It could be a Mailman issue if these are list messages. Mailman sets
the envelope sender for a list post to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
if VERP'd [EMAIL PROTECTED] In any case,
the sender domain is the host_name attribute of the list which is
visible on the General Options page.

For more info, see for example


-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users]Skypecouldposesecurityproblems for companies, analysts say

[Jared Rimer]

Understood, but what address would I be using for the bounce on the 
address that I'd use for the [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Confused.

At 21:21 11/8/2005, you wrote:
>Jared Rimer wrote:
>
> >I don't understand the second paragraph.
> >
> >At 20:26 11/8/2005, you wrote:
> >>Jared Rimer wrote:
> >>
> >> >Would the Eudora redirect work?
> >>
> >>It might. It removes a bunch of headers and replaces others and rewraps
> >>the message body, but it might work. You could try it, but you'd never
> >>know if it worked or not, since if the bounce were unrecognized, it
> >>would just go to the list owner assuming the option to notify the list
> >>owner was even selected.
> >>
> >>The best thing is if the host is using VERP like envelope sender, and
> >>you can determine the actual bouncing user's address, you could
> >>redirect the notice to
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED], and then it
> >>will always be recognized.
> >>
> >>If the previous paragraph is not clear, check the Return-Path:, Sender:
> >>or Errors-To: header in any message you have received from the
> >>mailman-users@python.org list.
>
>
>OK. I removed you from the To: list of this post so the copy you are
>reading came to you from the list. The envelope was sent to you by
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] which may be
>reflected in a Return-Path: header in the message, and that address is
>also in the Sender: and Errors-To: headers of the message. This is
>called a VERP (Variable Envelope Return Path) like address. It is
>"VERP like" because it is addressed that way by Mailman as opposed to
>true VERP which would be done by the MTA.
>
>If such a message bounces and is properly returned, it will be returned
>to [EMAIL PROTECTED] which will be
>delivered the same as if it were returned to
>[EMAIL PROTECTED], but the extra address information is
>available to the bounce processor so it can unequivocally determin the
>bouncing address.
>
>--
>Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
>San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>
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Jared Rimer
Business website: http://www.superior-software.com/support
Personal Website: http://www.asmodean.net/jrimer
Music Education Network for the Visually Impaired  http://menvi.org a 
service done through Superior Software level one
WBBY Internet Radio and All In Play team up.  Learn more 
http://www.menvi.org/allinplay
WBBY Internet Radio: www.wbby.us 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fwd: NDN: [Users]Skypecouldposesecurityproblemsfor companies, analysts say

[Mark Sapiro]

Jared Rimer wrote:

>Understood, but what address would I be using for the bounce on the 
>address that I'd use for the [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Confused.

The issue here is that even humans have a hard time parsing the message
you received. If I had to guess, and that's all it would be in this
case, I'd guess the address that bounced was

jpalmer,[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If in fact, that is the address the post was sent to, then the VERP
like return address would be

users-bounces+jpalmer,[EMAIL PROTECTED]

There are some problems however. In general, the address that bounces
could have been a forwarding address of the actual member address.
Thuse it really isn't possible to know the proper VERP like address to
return to unless it is visible in a Sender: or Errors-To: header in a
returned copy of the bounced message.

Basically, this whole process isn't worth the energy we're spending on
it. Just ignore the bounce, return it to the -owner as you did or
resend it to the -bounces address, and forget it.

If you are a frequent poster, and these bounces are regular and
annoying, take it up with the list owner who may chose to suspend
delivery to or unsubscribe the offender.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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