Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Mark Sapiro]

On 01/14/2016 11:58 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
> Sorry, I guess I should not have put it in quotes. That title is not at
> all clear to me that it means the domain name (not host name) for
> replying email. I had that set to my email domain (bellsouth.net).
> Changing it to the reply email domain (gmail.com) worked. I tried the
> host name 'pop.gmail.com' and that did not.


OK. Now I understand the confusion. We use 'host' in a number of places
where we really mean 'domain' and it can be particularly confusing for
email addresses where the 'domain' may just have an MX record and not be
a 'machine' at all.

However, this terminology is deeply embedded and affects translations if
it were to be changed, so I don't propose to actually change it at this
point.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Dennis Putnam]

On 1/14/2016 1:38 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 01/14/2016 04:02 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Got it. I guess the "Preferred Hostname" in the settings is somewhat of
>> a misnomer. It is really the preferred email hostname.
>
> Where are you seeing "Preferred Hostname"?
>
> Mailman's General Options page says
>
> Host name this list prefers for email.
> (Details for host_name)
>   
> which seems clear enough. I can't find the regexp 'preferred.?host' case
> insensitively anywhere in the GNU Mailman distribution.
>
>
Sorry, I guess I should not have put it in quotes. That title is not at
all clear to me that it means the domain name (not host name) for
replying email. I had that set to my email domain (bellsouth.net).
Changing it to the reply email domain (gmail.com) worked. I tried the
host name 'pop.gmail.com' and that did not.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Mark Sapiro]

On 01/14/2016 04:02 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>
> Got it. I guess the "Preferred Hostname" in the settings is somewhat of
> a misnomer. It is really the preferred email hostname.


Where are you seeing "Preferred Hostname"?

Mailman's General Options page says

Host name this list prefers for email.
(Details for host_name)

which seems clear enough. I can't find the regexp 'preferred.?host' case
insensitively anywhere in the GNU Mailman distribution.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Dennis Putnam]

On 1/10/2016 6:34 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 01/10/2016 03:07 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Google is back up. I guess I was wrong in my original assessment. The
>> headers are indeed there including List-Post. The reply to list button
>> is displayed (I don't know why I sometimes don't get that but I will
>> have to look closer next time it happens). Anyway, I now see the
>> problem, but I don't know how/where to fix it. The address in the
>> List-Post is wrong. I can see how to turn it off/on in the documentation
>> but not how to customize it?
>
> It is the list posting address, i.e. listname@host_name, the same as the
> address in "To post a message to all the list members, send email to
> ..." on the list's listinfo page.
>
> If the local part in the List-Post: header is not the list name,
> something is seriously wrong, but I don't know what. If the domain is
> not what you think it should be, the list's host_name (on the General
> Options page) is wrong. You can change it there, although that may
> indicate issues with add_virtualhost and DEFAULT_*_HOST in mm_cfg.py.
>
> As I said before, if you sometimes don't see it, it might be because you
> are looking at a reply sent to you directly (To: or Cc:) and not from
> the list.
>
>
Got it. I guess the "Preferred Hostname" in the settings is somewhat of
a misnomer. It is really the preferred email hostname.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Mark Sapiro]

On 01/10/2016 03:07 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>>
> Google is back up. I guess I was wrong in my original assessment. The
> headers are indeed there including List-Post. The reply to list button
> is displayed (I don't know why I sometimes don't get that but I will
> have to look closer next time it happens). Anyway, I now see the
> problem, but I don't know how/where to fix it. The address in the
> List-Post is wrong. I can see how to turn it off/on in the documentation
> but not how to customize it?


It is the list posting address, i.e. listname@host_name, the same as the
address in "To post a message to all the list members, send email to
..." on the list's listinfo page.

If the local part in the List-Post: header is not the list name,
something is seriously wrong, but I don't know what. If the domain is
not what you think it should be, the list's host_name (on the General
Options page) is wrong. You can change it there, although that may
indicate issues with add_virtualhost and DEFAULT_*_HOST in mm_cfg.py.

As I said before, if you sometimes don't see it, it might be because you
are looking at a reply sent to you directly (To: or Cc:) and not from
the list.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Dennis Putnam]

On 1/10/2016 1:57 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 01/10/2016 06:29 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> On 1/9/2016 4:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>> Are there other Mailman headers such as X-BeenThere: and
>>> X-Mailman-Version: in the messages?
>>>
>>> Do you have any local modifications to Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py?
>>>
>>> How do messages get from Mailman to you?
>>>
>>>
>> Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I don't recall but I don't think so.
>> I am currently unable to test it to see as imap.gmail.com seems to be
>> down and has been for a while.
>
> I use imap.googlemail.com for my gmail imap server, but that won't make
> any difference. I've just tested, and it appears that gmail/googlemail
> is now forcing SSL. I.e., neither imap.gmail.com nor imap.googlemail.com
> is answering port 143 connects, but both work with SSL on port 993.
>
>
>> The messages go from mailman on my
>> Postfix server to JetMail, to the subscriber's ISP (AT&T in my case).
>
> The next time you receive a post from the list in question, view the
> source (More -> View Source in Thunderbird). If you don't see the List-*
> headers, copy ALL of the headers and post them here. You can munge any
> personal info if you like.
>
>
Google is back up. I guess I was wrong in my original assessment. The
headers are indeed there including List-Post. The reply to list button
is displayed (I don't know why I sometimes don't get that but I will
have to look closer next time it happens). Anyway, I now see the
problem, but I don't know how/where to fix it. The address in the
List-Post is wrong. I can see how to turn it off/on in the documentation
but not how to customize it?



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Mark Sapiro]

On 01/10/2016 06:29 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> On 1/9/2016 4:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> Are there other Mailman headers such as X-BeenThere: and
>> X-Mailman-Version: in the messages?
>>
>> Do you have any local modifications to Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py?
>>
>> How do messages get from Mailman to you?
>>
>>
> Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I don't recall but I don't think so.
> I am currently unable to test it to see as imap.gmail.com seems to be
> down and has been for a while.


I use imap.googlemail.com for my gmail imap server, but that won't make
any difference. I've just tested, and it appears that gmail/googlemail
is now forcing SSL. I.e., neither imap.gmail.com nor imap.googlemail.com
is answering port 143 connects, but both work with SSL on port 993.


> The messages go from mailman on my
> Postfix server to JetMail, to the subscriber's ISP (AT&T in my case).


The next time you receive a post from the list in question, view the
source (More -> View Source in Thunderbird). If you don't see the List-*
headers, copy ALL of the headers and post them here. You can munge any
personal info if you like.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Dennis Putnam]

On 1/9/2016 4:43 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 01/09/2016 01:10 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Thanks for the reply. Those options are and apparently always have been
>> on. But none of those headers show up. I wonder if an SMTP server
>> somewhere along the way is stripping them out for some reason.
>
> Are there other Mailman headers such as X-BeenThere: and
> X-Mailman-Version: in the messages?
>
> Do you have any local modifications to Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py?
>
> How do messages get from Mailman to you?
>
>
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I don't recall but I don't think so.
I am currently unable to test it to see as imap.gmail.com seems to be
down and has been for a while. The messages go from mailman on my
Postfix server to JetMail, to the subscriber's ISP (AT&T in my case).



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Mark Sapiro]

On 01/09/2016 01:10 PM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>>
> Thanks for the reply. Those options are and apparently always have been
> on. But none of those headers show up. I wonder if an SMTP server
> somewhere along the way is stripping them out for some reason.


Are there other Mailman headers such as X-BeenThere: and
X-Mailman-Version: in the messages?

Do you have any local modifications to Mailman/Handlers/CookHeaders.py?

How do messages get from Mailman to you?

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Dennis Putnam]

On 1/9/2016 1:36 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 01/09/2016 06:14 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> On some mailman lists I receive messages in which Thunderbird displays a
>> "Reply to List" button. However, on my own lists that does not happen.
>> What header is TB relying on to get that and what setting do I need to
>> change my mailman for that to happen? TIA.
>
> Thunderbird and many other MUAs rely on the RFC 2369 List-Post: header
> for "reply to list". There are six RFC 2369 List-* headers; List-Id:,
> List-Unsubscribe:, List-Archive:, List-Post:, List-Help: and
> List-Subscribe:. Mailman's adding of these headers is controlled by the
> lists General Options include_rfc2369_headers and
> include_list_post_header settings.
>
> If include_rfc2369_headers is No, none of these headers will be added.
> If include_rfc2369_headers is Yes, List-Post: will be added only if
> include_list_post_header is Yes, List-Archive will be added only if the
> list is archiving and the other four will be added.
>
> So to ensure posts received from the list have a List-Post header, both
> include_rfc2369_headers and include_list_post_header must be Yes.
>
> Also note that if your "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" setting on
> a list is Yes and you are directly addressed in a reply, the copy you
> receive doesn't come from the list and won't have any Mailman headers.
>
>
Thanks for the reply. Those options are and apparently always have been
on. But none of those headers show up. I wonder if an SMTP server
somewhere along the way is stripping them out for some reason.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Mark Sapiro]

On 01/09/2016 06:14 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> On some mailman lists I receive messages in which Thunderbird displays a
> "Reply to List" button. However, on my own lists that does not happen.
> What header is TB relying on to get that and what setting do I need to
> change my mailman for that to happen? TIA.


Thunderbird and many other MUAs rely on the RFC 2369 List-Post: header
for "reply to list". There are six RFC 2369 List-* headers; List-Id:,
List-Unsubscribe:, List-Archive:, List-Post:, List-Help: and
List-Subscribe:. Mailman's adding of these headers is controlled by the
lists General Options include_rfc2369_headers and
include_list_post_header settings.

If include_rfc2369_headers is No, none of these headers will be added.
If include_rfc2369_headers is Yes, List-Post: will be added only if
include_list_post_header is Yes, List-Archive will be added only if the
list is archiving and the other four will be added.

So to ensure posts received from the list have a List-Post header, both
include_rfc2369_headers and include_list_post_header must be Yes.

Also note that if your "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" setting on
a list is Yes and you are directly addressed in a reply, the copy you
receive doesn't come from the list and won't have any Mailman headers.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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[Mailman-Users] Reply-To-List Header

[Dennis Putnam]

On some mailman lists I receive messages in which Thunderbird displays a
"Reply to List" button. However, on my own lists that does not happen.
What header is TB relying on to get that and what setting do I need to
change my mailman for that to happen? TIA.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list out of control...

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > Look at the messages received from the list. If this is Mailman 2.1.18-1
 > and dmarc_moderation_action and/or from_is_list is Munge From and
 > reply_goes_to_list is Poster, there should be a Reply-To: header with
 > the original poster's address.

I suspect the OP's list has historically munged Reply-To, and now
subscribers are getting annoying dupes because Munge From "moves" the
p=reject address in From to Reply-To, adding it to the list's address
which was already there according to the reply_to_list setting.

To the OP: If what you want is for the mail to go to list only, your
issue is Yahoo!'s fault.  (If not, the following rant doesn't apply,
and we need to figure out what is really going wrong at your site.)

Reply-To isn't broken, and neither is Mailman.  Yahoo! is deliberately
abusing the DMARC protocol because they had a massive security breach
("lesser of two evils"), and at least their tech staff knows exactly
what they're doing and admits it (apologies are prohibited under the
corporate NDA, of course ;-).  Just send the mail as is and let the
Yahoo! users complain to Yahoo! about the dupes.

Yahoo! is slowly (especially considering that one of their senior
techs is a co-author on the DMARC protocol document) moving toward
actually doing work on improving the situation since the spammer and
phishers are not going away, they're just temporarily thwarted.
Pressure from Yahoo! users might up the incentive to supply more
Yahoo! brainpower to the DMARC working group at the IETF. :-)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list out of control...

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/10/2014 07:15 AM, Dentar99 wrote:
> So, I had lots of problems with Yahoo users on my lists.  I did the research 
> and
> the upgrade, and it fixed the hell outta that...


Did you upgrade to Mailman 2.1.18-1?


> BUT... Now my users (as well as myself) are getting an issue where hitting 
> Reply
> (regular reply, not reply all) are getting the list AND the original sender.
> I've tried first_strip_reply_to and reply_goes_to_list, which I have no reason
> to believe should not work.  I do NOT have an explicit set.


Look at the messages received from the list. If this is Mailman 2.1.18-1
and dmarc_moderation_action and/or from_is_list is Munge From and
reply_goes_to_list is Poster, there should be a Reply-To: header with
the original poster's address. If this is the case, and a simple 'reply'
includes addresses such as the list posting address which aren't in the
Reply-To:, then the fault is with the MUA doing the replying.

Both RFCs 2822 and 5322 (sec 3.6.2) say:

   The originator fields also provide the information required when
   replying to a message.  When the "Reply-To:" field is present, it
   indicates the mailbox(es) to which the author of the message suggests
   that replies be sent.  In the absence of the "Reply-To:" field,
   replies SHOULD by default be sent to the mailbox(es) specified in the
   "From:" field unless otherwise specified by the person composing the
   reply.

RFC 822 (still the actual standard) sec 4.4.4 says in part:

For systems which automatically  generate  address  lists  for
replies to messages, the following recommendations are made:
...
o   If the "Reply-To" field exists, then the reply  should
go to the addresses indicated in that field and not to
the address(es) indicated in the "From" field.

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[Mailman-Users] Reply to list out of control...

[Dentar99]

So, I had lots of problems with Yahoo users on my lists.  I did the research and
the upgrade, and it fixed the hell outta that...


BUT... Now my users (as well as myself) are getting an issue where hitting Reply
(regular reply, not reply all) are getting the list AND the original sender.
I've tried first_strip_reply_to and reply_goes_to_list, which I have no reason
to believe should not work.  I do NOT have an explicit set.

So, the whole reply-to thing wasn't broken before new mailman, so I know it
isn't the MUA (postfix..)  ... is it?

Yes, I searched the archives and all of that.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list instead of poster (was: Muti-Mailmaninstall)

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Allan Odgaard writes:

[ repetitive lobbying removed ]

Please stop lobbying, period, and move these discussions off this
list.  We heard you the first time, you've been told the appropriate
venue.  Now this is just noise interfering with helping users with
their everyday problems.

If you really want to push any of your proposals forward, submit
patches.  Nobody is going to preapprove a verbal description of a
patch that you *might* write.  (No offense to you, but my experience
as a project leader is that about 2/3 of the patches that somebody is
absolutely positively definitely going to write are never submitted.)

I have some comments on your proposals which I am absolutely
positively definitely going to write assuming the proposals ever get
submitted in an appropriate venue.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list instead of poster

[Brad Knowles]

Allan Odgaard wrote:

I never understood why they have this recommendation or even default 
setting and it has always bothered me when lists I subscribe to does not 
change away from the default (fortunately majority of lists _do_ change 
it).


See FAQ 3.48 at .


The problem is actually twofold:

 1. I routinely forget to reply to the list, and
 2. I get private replies which I _think_ are meant for the list, but I 
feel bad about following up to the list incase the poster really wanted 
it to be private (plus list members lose half the conversation when only 
the list is cc’ed on every second letter).


There are far stronger arguments that have been made for your view, and they 
are countered by even stronger arguments on our side.



So what exactly is the reason for this recommendation (and default)?


See FAQ 3.48.


And where do we lobby for a change? :)


Everything that could possibly be argued on either side of this issue has 
already been said, years ago.  There are no new arguments to be made.


Unless all of the current Mailman developers go away and all of the 
replacements feel the same way you do, this decision is not ever going to 
change.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list instead of poster (was:Muti-Mailmaninstall)

[Mark Sapiro]

Allan Odgaard wrote:
>
>Here is how I would change all of the above:
>
>  List replies go to: (o) Poster (recommended, more info)
>  ( ) The list
>   [x] Strip existing Reply-To header
>  ( ) Other: [   ]
>
>The grouping should make it clear how the settings relate to each  
>other, so no need for long explanations about the explicit Reply-To  
>address etc.
>
>Less text means better chance the user will read/grasp it. I only  
>added one "more info" link and put it right next to the ‘recommended’  
>text, so it should be clear from context that it will elaborate on why  
>this is the recommended setting.


I really don't want to get into a discussion of the web UI here. I am
not directly involved in the changes that are going on, and I think
the wiki  and the mailman-developers list
are more appropriate for this discussion.

However, I certainly agree that your suggested improvement above is
more readable and user friendly except that it doesn't correctly
capture the interrelated settings.

The first_strip_reply_to setting is independent and while it doesn't
make sense for 'poster', it certainly does for 'other'

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list instead of poster (was: Muti-Mailmaninstall)

[Allan Odgaard]

On 19 Jun 2008, at 15:53, Mark Sapiro wrote:

[...] You have said in another thread that these links contribute to  
excessive verbosity of the labels, but they often link to useful  
supplemental information.


I don’t dispute that. I am sure there are lots of useful info there,  
but it drowns in the excessive verbosity. Take the reply-to UI in  
question:


Reply-To: header munging

   Should any existing Reply-To: header
   found in the original message be
 stripped? If so, this will be done  (o) No  ( ) Yes
   regardless of whether an explict
Reply-To: header is added by Mailman or
   not. (Edit first_strip_reply_to)

 Where are replies to list messages
   directed? Poster is strongly recommended  (o) Poster  ( ) This list
   for most mailing lists. (Details for  ( ) Explicit address
reply_goes_to_list)

Explicit Reply-To: header. (Details for   
[ ]

  reply_to_address)

That’s almost 100 words and the link that explains why the Poster  
option is recommended bears the mundane title of “(Details for  
reply_goes_to_list)” and is part of a label which is really 3 sentences.


Here is how I would change all of the above:

 List replies go to: (o) Poster (recommended, more info)
 ( ) The list
  [x] Strip existing Reply-To header
 ( ) Other: [   ]

The grouping should make it clear how the settings relate to each  
other, so no need for long explanations about the explicit Reply-To  
address etc.¹


Less text means better chance the user will read/grasp it. I only  
added one “more info” link and put it right next to the ‘recommended’  
text, so it should be clear from context that it will elaborate on why  
this is the recommended setting.




¹ The third setting is dependent on list replies going to the list and  
while it indicates that the first setting can be used even for replies  
sent to poster, that does IMHO not make much sense.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list instead of poster (was: Muti-Mailmaninstall)

[Mark Sapiro]

Allan Odgaard wrote:

>On 19 Jun 2008, at 08:38, adsarebad-at-. wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> Also it seems clicking reply on a msg here does a off list reply. So  
>> all my previous reply`s were done off list.
>
>It is the default for new Mailman installs and the admin UI even has:
>
> Where are replies to list messages directed?
> Poster is strongly recommended for most mailing lists
>
>I never understood why they have this recommendation or even default  
>setting and it has always bothered me when lists I subscribe to does  
>not change away from the default (fortunately majority of lists _do_  
>change it).


The reasoning, including links to a couple of articles pro and con on
the subject, is explained on the page linked as "(Details for
reply_goes_to_list)". You have said in another thread that these links
contribute to excessive verbosity of the labels, but they often link
to useful supplemental information.


[...]
>So what exactly is the reason for this recommendation (and default)?


The principles of least harm and least surprise.


>And where do we lobby for a change? :)


You can continue this thread, or you can just search the archives of
this (and maybe the mailman-developers) list and see if you have
something new to add.

Note that the Mailman developers have strong opinions about this, and
it would take a new and compelling argument to change it.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Reply to list instead of poster (was: Muti-Mailman install)

[Allan Odgaard]

On 19 Jun 2008, at 08:38, adsarebad-at-. wrote:


[...]
Also it seems clicking reply on a msg here does a off list reply. So  
all my previous reply`s were done off list.


It is the default for new Mailman installs and the admin UI even has:

Where are replies to list messages directed?
Poster is strongly recommended for most mailing lists

I never understood why they have this recommendation or even default  
setting and it has always bothered me when lists I subscribe to does  
not change away from the default (fortunately majority of lists _do_  
change it).


The problem is actually twofold:

 1. I routinely forget to reply to the list, and
 2. I get private replies which I _think_ are meant for the list, but  
I feel bad about following up to the list incase the poster really  
wanted it to be private (plus list members lose half the conversation  
when only the list is cc’ed on every second letter).


So what exactly is the reason for this recommendation (and default)?

And where do we lobby for a change? :)


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-To list and poster in _some_ headers

[Sythos]

On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 10:46:07AM +, david gordon wrote:
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Set "strip original Reply-To" and force your one

Regards
Sythos

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[Mailman-Users] Reply-To list and poster in _some_ headers

[david gordon]

I have a 2.1.5 Mailman list set up so all replies go to the list. The
setting "Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly
recommended for most mailing lists." is "Explicit address" and the
"Explicit Reply-To: header." is the email address of the list, ie
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Everything seems fine and this worked okay in MM 2.0.13. Having just
upgraded to 2.1.5 I see a couple of messages reaching the list with a
Reply-To header of

>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Any ideas why this should be?

Thanks

david gordon


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[John A. Martin]

>>>>> "jb" == John Buttery
>>>>> "Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list"
>>>>>  Sun, 8 Feb 2004 08:12:50 -0600

jb> * Buddy Logan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-02-08 03:15:46
jb>   -0800]:
>> Since this is a pet peeve of yours, maybe you should explain to
>> me what is wrong with overwriting the "reply to" header.

jb>   Well, OK...where to start? 

A short answer is: 'see rfc2822 Section 3.6.2 "Originator fields"'
Slight elaboration can be seen in the sixth paragraph of rfc2822
Section 3.6.3 starting with "When a message is a reply to another
message".

jam



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[John Buttery]

* Buddy Logan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-02-08 03:15:46 -0800]:
> Since this is a pet peeve of yours, maybe you should explain to me
> what is wrong with overwriting the "reply to" header.

  Well, OK...where to start?  I guess a little background is in order.
Basically, the idea is that every email has a "From:" header.  You would
expect that the address that the message purports to be "From:" is also
capable of receiving replies.  Most of the time that's the case, but
sometimes it isn't (I don't think listing specific cases is relevant to
the point, but in case you want one, imagine someone posting from a
work account that wants replies to go to their home address).  To
account for those situations where the author wants replies to go to a
different address than the source of the post, the Reply-To: header was
created.
  This is a central piece of information to this whole thing, so I'm
going to repeat/rephrase it.  The Reply-To: header consists of specific
instructions _from the author_, designating where replies to the message
should be sent.  This author is a human, and therefore his opinion is by
definition more important than that of any intervening mail-routing
software.
  That's also a central piece of information, so I'm going to restate
that as well.  Human beings are to be considered the authoritative
sources of information, and not the machines pushing the mail around.

  OK, so now that we've established what the Reply-To: header is, and
what its purpose is, let's examine what "reply-to-list" does.  The email
comes in with a From: header of "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and a Reply-To:
header of "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" because Mr. Goldstein
doesn't want his bosses to see who's responding to the message he's
sending out; replies should be directed to his personal SMTP server.
  Unfortunately, the list software has other plans.  It deletes Mr.
Goldstein's Reply-To: header and replaces it with the post address of
the list.  That information is now permanently deleted from the
transmisison.

  That, to me, is the issue.

> I guess it has been quite a few years since I have participated
> in a discussion list but, as I recall, this used to be the common
> practice.

  It still is common practice, unfortunately...that doesn't make it the
right thing to do, though.  Look at McDonalds.  :p

> It is convenient, and makes perfect sense to me.  I'm no
> expert on header information - perhaps it messes up the trail or
> something - I'm just really curious as to what the controversy is.

  Well, my best explanations of my point of view on it are in this email
and the two I posted a little while ago.  Hopefully they at least
clarified things, even if they don't change anyone's habits.

-- 
  John  ! Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day.
 Buttery!
www.io.c! Teach a man to fish, and he'll starve from sitting in the boat
om/~john! all day, drinking beer.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Buddy Logan]

John -
Since this is a pet peeve of yours, maybe you should explain to me what is
wrong with overwriting the "reply to" header.
I guess it has been quite a few years since I have participated in a
discussion list but, as I recall, this used to be the common practice. It is
convenient, and makes perfect sense to me.  I'm no expert on header
information - perhaps it messes up the trail or something - I'm just really
curious as to what the controversy is.


- Original Message - 
From: "John Buttery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 2:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-02-05 20:02:46 +0200]:
> http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml

  I've read that before; doesn't change the fact that arbitrarily
overwriting the Reply-To: header destroys information.

> A good portion of my members (mostly newbies) use various web-based
> mailers.  They haven't a "Reply to all" button.

  Then their mailer is broken and they need to fix/change it.  Two
wrongs don't make a right.

> The members are newbies in computers - what I should do, refuse them
> in medical help until they buy own computer (a year average monetary
> income here) and master it?  Please remember that almost all members
> on non-technical lists are FAR less savvy than you are.

  That's not a compelling argument.  There are plenty of web-based
mailers that _do_ have a group-reply function (geez, even Hotmail and
Yahoo can handle that much).

  This all really comes down to one thing, and I apologize to everyone
if this comes out a bit harsh but it's a pet peeve of mine.  I really
could care less what a newbie "expects to see", I care about doing the
right thing.  Hopefully they coincide, but this is one of those cases
where they don't, and penalizing all the members of a mailing list by
having their Reply-To's erased just so that some newbie doesn't have to
think is not acceptable to me.  It's the Outlook virus, and I'm not
talking about a computer virus this time.

  Ford doesn't provide a chauffeur with every new car.  Learn the tool.

-- 
  John  ! Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid
 Buttery! thinking.  There is an almost universal quest for easy answers
www.io.c! and half-baked solutions.  Nothing pains some people more than
om/~john! having to think. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[John Buttery]

* Paul H Byerly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-02-05 12:27:00 -0600]:
> Mailman does not destroy the original senders identify or e-mail, so
> this part of the argument is moot.

  OK, I promise this will be my last post on this topic unless someone
posts to me by name in non-quoted text, but I just had to set this
straight.  For the purposes of this response I'm assuming that instead
of "Mailman" you mean "Setting reply-to-list" and instead of "identify"
you mean "identity":

  This is false.  I'd like to put it more diplomatically, but I really
do think it's important that everyone clearly understands this point.
Whether or not a portion of the sender's identity, which in some cases
is vitally important, is deleted is not what's being discussed here.
Information _is_ being deleted; the discussion concerns whether or not
it should be considered important that it's being deleted.
  (The other point people seem to be bringing up is that forgetting to
edit your own recipients blows up in your face much larger with r-t-l
than with r-t-s.  Personally if I were going to post about my mistress'
special fantasies, my collection of Cuban cigars, or the pink lingerie I
keep hidden in my underwear drawer next to the leaked corporate memos
I'm about to send to indymedia.org, I would triple-check the recipient
addresses anyway before sending in _any_ case.  Wait, did I just say all
that out loud?)

  I used to be a big holy war guy, but I had to give up on the emacs/vi,
Linux/FreeBSD, Debian/everything_else battles because eventually you
have to realize that both sides are right.  I don't see this as one of
those times; all the arguments for reply-to-list just seem to boil down
to either ignorance, inertia, or occasionally just downright laziness.
For the latter two, well, get off your butt.  :)  For the former, the
correct solution to ignorance is education, not making your ignorance
someone else's problem.

-- 
  John  ! The problem with pointing to the Nazis or the Gestapo
 Buttery! exclusively is that it allows us the safety of saying, "Well,
www.io.c! it happened just there, and only once, *we* could never fall
om/~john! for that."


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[John Buttery]

* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-02-05 20:02:46 +0200]:
> http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml

  I've read that before; doesn't change the fact that arbitrarily
overwriting the Reply-To: header destroys information.

> A good portion of my members (mostly newbies) use various web-based
> mailers.  They haven't a "Reply to all" button.

  Then their mailer is broken and they need to fix/change it.  Two
wrongs don't make a right.

> The members are newbies in computers - what I should do, refuse them
> in medical help until they buy own computer (a year average monetary
> income here) and master it?  Please remember that almost all members
> on non-technical lists are FAR less savvy than you are.

  That's not a compelling argument.  There are plenty of web-based
mailers that _do_ have a group-reply function (geez, even Hotmail and
Yahoo can handle that much).

  This all really comes down to one thing, and I apologize to everyone
if this comes out a bit harsh but it's a pet peeve of mine.  I really
could care less what a newbie "expects to see", I care about doing the
right thing.  Hopefully they coincide, but this is one of those cases
where they don't, and penalizing all the members of a mailing list by
having their Reply-To's erased just so that some newbie doesn't have to
think is not acceptable to me.  It's the Outlook virus, and I'm not
talking about a computer virus this time.

  Ford doesn't provide a chauffeur with every new car.  Learn the tool.

-- 
  John  ! Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid
 Buttery! thinking.  There is an almost universal quest for easy answers
www.io.c! and half-baked solutions.  Nothing pains some people more than
om/~john! having to think. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Chuq Von Rospach]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:57 PM, Mark Dadgar wrote:

	So, what's your point?
Unless you've been in my position, you wouldn't understand it.

Actually, since I know Brad pretty well by now, I'll bet he would.

Try him and see.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Bryan Carbonnell]

On 5 Feb 2004 at 9:06, Mark Dadgar wrote:

> Yeah, it's so damned hard to edit the To: line, isn't it?  Wow.  I
> don't know how people ever manage to send email in the first place.

Yep it is once you get inside of some corporate mail systems. The 
>From line gets hosed, but the Reply-To doesn't get touched.

--
Bryan Carbonnell - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I've learned
That the easiest way for me to grow as a person is to surround myself 
with people smarter than I am.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Mark Dadgar]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:09 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
 At the end of the day, though, it doesn't really matter what
 the size of the list is, PROVIDED that you can tailer the
 software appropriately to your intended use.  You are
 advocating making that impossible.
	No, I'm not.  I am not advocating that this feature be removed from 
Mailman.  I am advocating that this feature be left turned off, unless 
an experienced administrator (who fully understands the issues 
involved) decides that it is necessary for their particular purpose. I 
can't imagine what that is, and I am kind of hesitant to give people 
tools to shoot their feet off casually, but I do recognize that there 
might be situations where it could be useful.
So what are we arguing about?!

	However, from what I've seen from you so far, you do not have enough 
experience to fully understand all the issues.
Oh yeah, that.

 I love arguments like that.  Nonsensical, but completely irrefutable.
	Obviously, you haven't lost a job over situations like this. Until 
something of that scale happens to you, you may well not understand.
You have just reset my personal bar in the field of arrogance.  
Congratulations - it's quite an accomplishment.

This has also become very boring, as I imagine the rest of the list 
found out multiple emails ago.

Your mind is set.  It must be very confining in there.

I'm done.

- Mark
-
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Mark Dadgar]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:14 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
 LOL!  You are a defense attorney's worst nightmare!
	My wife is a general counsel of a company with hundreds of billions 
of euros of daily turnover, and over ten trillions of euros of assets 
under management.  It used to be owned by one of the biggest 
Investment banks in the world, before they spun off that operation and 
sold it to the customers.

	She was also a key person in the creation of the electronic version 
of the London Stock Exchange, and (so far as I know) has been the only 
person ever loaned by the US Securities and Exchange Commission to a 
government of another country.

	She has archives going back as long as she's been on the Internet.  
She was most likely materially involved in the creation of the SEC 
rule that requires seven year retention on all forms of communication 
between stock brokers and their customers.

	So, what's your point?
Unless you've been in my position, you wouldn't understand it.

- Mark

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Brad Knowles]

At 2:45 PM -0800 2004/02/05, Mark Dadgar wrote:

 LOL!  You are a defense attorney's worst nightmare!
	My wife is a general counsel of a company with hundreds of 
billions of euros of daily turnover, and over ten trillions of euros 
of assets under management.  It used to be owned by one of the 
biggest Investment banks in the world, before they spun off that 
operation and sold it to the customers.

	She was also a key person in the creation of the electronic 
version of the London Stock Exchange, and (so far as I know) has been 
the only person ever loaned by the US Securities and Exchange 
Commission to a government of another country.

	She has archives going back as long as she's been on the 
Internet.  She was most likely materially involved in the creation of 
the SEC rule that requires seven year retention on all forms of 
communication between stock brokers and their customers.

	So, what's your point?

--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Brad Knowles]

At 2:43 PM -0800 2004/02/05, Mark Dadgar wrote:

 Yes, but in the text to which I was referring (that you snipped in
 your reply above), you stated that it's easy enough to solve Reply
 All problem of ending up with the original sender and the list
 address in the To: line by just deleting the original sender's
 address.  But now you're telling me that's not an option in a
 large number (in terms of user base) of mail clients.
 So, pick one.  Which way do you want it?
	In the clients I've seen, the original sender would get put in 
the "To:" field, and in a reply that would be unchangeable.  All the 
other addresses would get put in the "Cc:" field, and that would be 
changeable.

	Setting "Reply-To:" to the list would cause the reply to be sent 
only to the list, and that would be in the unchangeable "To:" header. 
Not setting this field at all would allow the reply to go back to the 
original poster, with the other addresses changeable.

 That's pretty cool.  BUT, how many of those 5 million plus lowest
 common denominator people did you actually interact with?
	Quite a lot.

 But in any case, this is irrelevant.  I don't think you can
 dictate behaviour to everyone based on your sampling.
	No, but I can tell you that I've seen behaviour on many, many 
occasions which you don't ever appear to have seen, and in my 
experience that is typically explained by the size of the user base 
in question.

 How often does that really happen (that sensitive information is
 shared).  I mean, really.
	Quite frequently, actually.  Moreover, just once is more than enough.

 It could.  Nice corner case.  And I would not advocate turning Reply
 To List on in a circumstance like that.
	It's actually a quite common case, not a corner.

 But in the rest of the majority of cases, where accidentally
 replying to the list broadcasts nothing more seriously than
 your Aunt Martha's secret carrotcake recipe, the risk is worth
 living with in exchange for the myriad benefits.
	What "myriad benefits"?  I haven't heard a single one.

 Don't you think this is a bit of a stretch?  We're not talking
 about air traffic control here.
	No, not really.  You really can lose your job over these kinds of 
things.  Someone losing their life is not out of the question.

	In essence, you really are playing a form of Russian Roulette.

 At the end of the day, though, it doesn't really matter what
 the size of the list is, PROVIDED that you can tailer the
 software appropriately to your intended use.  You are
 advocating making that impossible.
	No, I'm not.  I am not advocating that this feature be removed 
from Mailman.  I am advocating that this feature be left turned off, 
unless an experienced administrator (who fully understands the issues 
involved) decides that it is necessary for their particular purpose. 
I can't imagine what that is, and I am kind of hesitant to give 
people tools to shoot their feet off casually, but I do recognize 
that there might be situations where it could be useful.

	However, from what I've seen from you so far, you do not have 
enough experience to fully understand all the issues.

	Maybe it should be a feature that requires changing the source code

 I love arguments like that.  Nonsensical, but completely irrefutable.
	Obviously, you haven't lost a job over situations like this. 
Until something of that scale happens to you, you may well not 
understand.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 23:09, Warren Woodward wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:55:26PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
> > Do they prefer to have messages which they thought would be 
> > private replies being blasted to the whole list?
> 
> The reality of the modern, public internet is that the opposite is far
> more common -- right or wrong, in most common, public internet circles
> (I'm talking the far more prevelant "recipe sharing"-style lists, not "RFC
> management"-style lists), people have grown to accept as standard that in

The question is not "what is more convenient" but "what reduces the
damage of severe errors in replying".
And the default being list-reply is IMHO worse on errors than otherwise.

Bernd
-- 
Firmix Software GmbH   http://www.firmix.at/
mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Chuq Von Rospach]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 2:27 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
	Indeed, he has.  He doesn't like to brag about it, but he does run 
some of the largest known Mailman mailing lists, and his systems are 
on the same scale as the Kolstad & Chalup papers that I have 
previously mentioned on this mailing list.  Chuq could probably write 
the third installment in "How to Manage Very Large Mailing Lists".
I intend to, actually. And I have to note that my mailman installation 
is the smallest system I manage.

	If it was your job and your life that was on the line every single 
time that one of your customers hit the reply key, which would you 
want?  Do you really want to play Russian Roulette with 20,000 other 
people?
I know people fired for that mistake. I've come awful close myself. On 
my own system, after an admin changed a setting he was told not to 
change.

Not fun.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Mark Dadgar]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 2:34 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
  And I had much correspondence 
since
 1996: on most lists I use digest mode, counter of sent by me letters
 in my MUA shows currently 54532, I receive about 4.3 times more
 letters than I send (i.e. I received about quarter million letters).
	I can go back through the 90's, into the mid-80's if length of time 
is the important criteria here.  I have multiple gigabytes of e-mail 
on my current system, and untold gigabytes of e-mail archived off in 
one place or another.
LOL!  You are a defense attorney's worst nightmare!

- Mark

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Thomas Hochstein]

Mark Dadgar schrieb:

>> 
>
> This is totally ridiculous.

Is it?

> The document you reference is a long attempt at rationalizing why we 
> shouldn't bother to try to make mail systems Do The Right Thing.

The question is: *is* it the right thing?

On mailing lists with reply-to set to the list, I see quite often
replies that were obviously meant to go to the poster, not to the
list, sometimes very ... private mails. That is *not* the right thing.

Sometimes I have a fixed From:-Address (from which I have to send mail
and that I cannot change), e.g. at work, but want answers sent to
another address (e.g. my home address). So I set reply-to to my
private address. If the MLA overwrites Reply-To:, I get private
replies to my work address, which is not the thing I want nor the
right thing.

I like to read my mailing lists gated to a local newsgroup or with a
clienbt that has a GUI that makes no real difference between mails,
amiling list and newsgroups, so I can followup/reply to all (the list)
with one keypress and reply privately to the author with another,
without changing addresses or even c&p'ing. That's nice, it's
comfortable, and it's broken if Reply-To: is set to the list. That
obviously is not the right thing either.

> The tool should fit the job and not the other way around.

The tool should do the job *I* want it to do, not the job someone
thinks most in my position would like it to do.

It's mostly the same, alway: if you try to make things "easier", you
do not add functionality, you *break* functionality. That may not
matter to people that cannot or would not use that functionality, it
may even really make things easier for them, but it is a step back,
not a step forward, because it makes things worse for advanced users.

That said, I *do* set Reply-To: to the list on lists where a majority
of people requested this setting, or on list with low traffic or a
majority of computer illiterate users. Not because that's the "right
thing" - it obviously isn't -, but because there's nobody there that
needs advanced features of any kind, and the people that don't know or
don't want to know how to use them may get alog better with a fixed
"standard" setting.

But personally, I do strongly prefer a list that does no reply-to
munging, and on lists that are frequented by people who *know* how to
use their computer and their tools [1] I'd never switch from the
default.

[1] That does not necessarily mean "IT guys". You don't have to be an
IT guy (and I am not) to learn hwo to use your computer as an
efficient tool.

-thh


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Mark Dadgar]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 2:27 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
 You just told me in a previous email that some people cannot edit
 the To: line on a reply.  So which is it?
	On the software I've seen, you can't change the To: line in a reply, 
but you can add other addresses in the Cc: line.
Yes, but in the text to which I was referring (that you snipped in your 
reply above), you stated that it's easy enough to solve Reply All 
problem of ending up with the original sender and the list address in 
the To: line by just deleting the original sender's address.  But now 
you're telling me that's not an option in a large number (in terms of 
user base) of mail clients.

So, pick one.  Which way do you want it?

	Well, I was the Sr. Internet Mail Systems Administrator for AOL, and 
the first Internet Mail Operations person they ever hired.  I've 
worked in environments supporting five million plus users, most of 
whom I believe everyone would agree are pretty 
lowest-common-denominator -- they don't get any lower.  I've also 
worked with the Listserv/LSMTP installation at AOL, and I helped set 
up many of the machines that were being used by the mailing list 
administration staff.
That's pretty cool.  BUT, how many of those 5 million plus lowest 
common denominator people did you actually interact with?

	How many millions of lowest-common-denominator users have you 
supported?

Again, see above.

But in any case, this is irrelevant.  I don't think you can dictate 
behaviour to everyone based on your sampling.

 Chuq made the point that he had done exhaustive research on the way
 people use this stuff.
	Indeed, he has.  He doesn't like to brag about it, but he does run 
some of the largest known Mailman mailing lists, and his systems are 
on the same scale as the Kolstad & Chalup papers that I have 
previously mentioned on this mailing list.  Chuq could probably write 
the third installment in "How to Manage Very Large Mailing Lists".
Yup, the guy Gets It in general.

	True enough.  But in this case, there is a particular configuration 
which is known (and proven) to reduce the amount of information being 
needlessly destroyed by the mailing list administrator, and which is 
likely to result in the least amount of embarrassment if someone just 
hits the reply key and then shares out all sorts of really sensitive 
information.
How often does that really happen (that sensitive information is 
shared).  I mean, really.

	Your method would have all that incredibly sensitive information 
automatically sent back to the entire mailing list, which could 
certainly cost someone their job.  That kind of behaviour could 
conceivably cost someone their life.
It could.  Nice corner case.  And I would not advocate turning Reply To 
List on in a circumstance like that.

But in the rest of the majority of cases, where accidentally replying 
to the list broadcasts nothing more seriously than your Aunt Martha's 
secret carrotcake recipe, the risk is worth living with in exchange for 
the myriad benefits.

	If it was your job and your life that was on the line every single 
time that one of your customers hit the reply key, which would you 
want?  Do you really want to play Russian Roulette with 20,000 other 
people?
Don't you think this is a bit of a stretch?  We're not talking about 
air traffic control here.

 However, you are advocating a reduction in choices by doing away
 with Reply To List.  And in my experience it just is not as big
 a problem as you people think.
	Then I would have to conclude that you haven't been doing this for 
long, or at least not with any mailing list of any real size.
You can conclude whatever you want.

At the end of the day, though, it doesn't really matter what the size 
of the list is, PROVIDED that you can tailer the software appropriately 
to your intended use.  You are advocating making that impossible.

 The poster (Paul?) who said it's probably appropriate for 100
 person lists but not for 20K person lists was right on the money.
	See above.  Russian Roulette with 100 people is more likely to be 
survivable than with 20,000.
Yes.  Your point?

	Unless you've been there and done that and definitely lost the job 
(or would have, if you had still been working there), you may not ever 
understand.
I love arguments like that.  Nonsensical, but completely irrefutable.

	You may not believe me, but I do hope that you never have to live 
through this kind of experience.
And the patronizing ending.  Nice form.  I'll give the post a 7.  Your 
score was compromised a bit by a couple of arguments that didn't go 
anywhere.

- Mark
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Brad Knowles]

At 12:15 AM +0200 2004/02/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 It is far easier to add information (e.g., add another recipient
 address) than it is to recreate information that was destroyed.
 I can recall not one letter directly from a person's MUA to me with
 "Reply-To:" differing from "From:".
	Fine.  Those messages weren't munged by a misguided mailing list manager.

  And I had much correspondence since
 1996: on most lists I use digest mode, counter of sent by me letters
 in my MUA shows currently 54532, I receive about 4.3 times more
 letters than I send (i.e. I received about quarter million letters).
	I can go back through the 90's, into the mid-80's if length of 
time is the important criteria here.  I have multiple gigabytes of 
e-mail on my current system, and untold gigabytes of e-mail archived 
off in one place or another.

 Yes, I did consider. The fact that many newbie members on my
 relatively small (227 members today) list haven't "Reply to all" button
 overrode other concerns.
	See my previous message.  It has been my experience that people 
continue down this path, heedless of all warnings, until the fateful 
day comes when this really, really seriously bites them, and they 
lose their job, their business, their best friend (or friends), their 
spouse, or whatever.

	After all, when you're playing Russian Roulette, you keep living 
(and winning), every time you pull that trigger.  That is, until the 
last one.

--
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Brad Knowles]

At 1:39 PM -0800 2004/02/05, Mark Dadgar wrote:

 You just told me in a previous email that some people cannot edit
 the To: line on a reply.  So which is it?
	On the software I've seen, you can't change the To: line in a 
reply, but you can add other addresses in the Cc: line.

 Then we have at least equivalent experience.  Except that I appear
 to live in the real world and you live in a techy vacuum.  There is
 nothing wrong with that, mind you, as long as you realize that the
 assumptions you make about people's usage patterns are colored by
 the people you interact with.
	Well, I was the Sr. Internet Mail Systems Administrator for AOL, 
and the first Internet Mail Operations person they ever hired.  I've 
worked in environments supporting five million plus users, most of 
whom I believe everyone would agree are pretty 
lowest-common-denominator -- they don't get any lower.  I've also 
worked with the Listserv/LSMTP installation at AOL, and I helped set 
up many of the machines that were being used by the mailing list 
administration staff.

	How many millions of lowest-common-denominator users have you supported?

 Chuq made the point that he had done exhaustive research on the way
 people use this stuff.
	Indeed, he has.  He doesn't like to brag about it, but he does 
run some of the largest known Mailman mailing lists, and his systems 
are on the same scale as the Kolstad & Chalup papers that I have 
previously mentioned on this mailing list.  Chuq could probably write 
the third installment in "How to Manage Very Large Mailing Lists".

 The fallacy he has unknowningly fallen into,
 and you have as well, is that the behaviour of the software needs
 to be tailored to the user base.  There is no single case that solves
 all problems.
	True enough.  But in this case, there is a particular 
configuration which is known (and proven) to reduce the amount of 
information being needlessly destroyed by the mailing list 
administrator, and which is likely to result in the least amount of 
embarrassment if someone just hits the reply key and then shares out 
all sorts of really sensitive information.

	Your method would have all that incredibly sensitive information 
automatically sent back to the entire mailing list, which could 
certainly cost someone their job.  That kind of behaviour could 
conceivably cost someone their life.

	If it was your job and your life that was on the line every 
single time that one of your customers hit the reply key, which would 
you want?  Do you really want to play Russian Roulette with 20,000 
other people?

 However, you are advocating a reduction in choices by doing away
 with Reply To List.  And in my experience it just is not as big
 a problem as you people think.
	Then I would have to conclude that you haven't been doing this 
for long, or at least not with any mailing list of any real size.

 The poster (Paul?) who said it's probably appropriate for 100
 person lists but not for 20K person lists was right on the money.
	See above.  Russian Roulette with 100 people is more likely to be 
survivable than with 20,000.

	Unless you've been there and done that and definitely lost the 
job (or would have, if you had still been working there), you may not 
ever understand.

	You may not believe me, but I do hope that you never have to live 
through this kind of experience.

--
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+
!w--- O- M++ V PS++(+++) PE- Y+(++) PGP>+++ t+(+++) 5++(+++) X++(+++) R+(+++)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Lena]

> From: Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> >  A good portion of my members (mostly newbies) use various web-based mailers.
> >  They haven't a "Reply to all" button.

> It is far easier to add information (e.g., add another recipient
> address) than it is to recreate information that was destroyed.

I can recall not one letter directly from a person's MUA to me with
"Reply-To:" differing from "From:". And I had much correspondence since
1996: on most lists I use digest mode, counter of sent by me letters
in my MUA shows currently 54532, I receive about 4.3 times more
letters than I send (i.e. I received about quarter million letters).

> Please, carefully consider the consequences of actions like this,
> and make sure that what you do really is in the best interests of the
> user community, even if they don't know it themselves.

Yes, I did consider. The fact that many newbie members on my
relatively small (227 members today) list haven't "Reply to all" button
overrode other concerns.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Chuq Von Rospach]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 2:09 PM, Warren Woodward wrote:



We now have upwards of 400 public lists on our mailman server, and I 
have
heard complaints over this matter from every single one of them.
be wary of the squeaky wheel speaking for the entire wagon.

just list this discussion.

you may be right. I've found the reply-to enthusiasts speak on the 
situation way beyond the typical population, and with more enthusiasm 
than the non-reply-to types, who are generally tired of arguing and 
just shut up and go away when it comes up.

which reminds me... (exit, stage running like hell... grin)





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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Warren Woodward]

On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:55:26PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
>   Do they prefer to have messages which they thought would be 
> private replies being blasted to the whole list?

The reality of the modern, public internet is that the opposite is far
more common -- right or wrong, in most common, public internet circles
(I'm talking the far more prevelant "recipe sharing"-style lists, not "RFC
management"-style lists), people have grown to accept as standard that in
group discussion lists, unless you're intentionally deviating from the
thread topic, it is customary to respond to the list as a whole, and not
in private.  As such, they are confused when this is not the default 
setting and have to break their own well established habits to respond to 
the list.

We now have upwards of 400 public lists on our mailman server, and I have
heard complaints over this matter from every single one of them.  And no,
that is not an exaggeration. For years now, I explain upfront upon list
creation why things are set this way, and that the owner is responsible
for changing it if they wish -- which they *never* understand or
appreciate, and thus usually ignore until the first complaints roll in.

Mailman eases the discussion format for less technology savvy users, and
its popularity has grown for that fact.  Those users don't understand a
whit of header munging -- they just want their subscribers to be able to
hit the big "Reply" button and have their response return to the list --
just like it would on a web forum or through most standard usenet clients
-- and when it doesn't do that, they get complaints and forward them to
me.  Of note, the most recent complaint came from subscribers of a list
devoted to the discussion of Utah's UTOPIA project, which is well
populated by this region's technological elite, many of whom were
extremely surprised at this default setting and considered it an
antiquated standard and requested it be changed.

I should say, however, that I agree fully with the logic behind avoiding
header munging, and do appreciate that it is standard in Mailman.  As was
well illustrated in another reply, there are very, very appropriate times
for it, and other list software fails in not offering this option.

But personally, in my daily experience, having the defaults reversed would 
save a lot of time and headaches.  

Just my two pennies in a dead, done debate.

-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Mark Dadgar]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 12:09 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
 Additionally, a lot of folks don't want a private copy plus one to
 the list - and done as the author suggests there is no quick and
 easy way to send to the list only.
	Related to what you reference below, if you want to reply to just the 
list, all you have to do is hit "reply-all", and then delete the 
addresses you don't want.  That's even simpler than "cut-n-paste", 
because there's no "paste" part to that operation.
You just told me in a previous email that some people cannot edit the 
To: line on a reply.  So which is it?

  Bottom line, I can understand that there was a time when
 reply to author made sense for a lot of lists, but I don't think
 that is the case anymore.
	I disagree.  I've been doing this sort of stuff for fifteen years, 
and I've been using e-mail and the Internet for twenty.
Then we have at least equivalent experience.  Except that I appear to 
live in the real world and you live in a techy vacuum.  There is 
nothing wrong with that, mind you, as long as you realize that the 
assumptions you make about people's usage patterns are colored by the 
people you interact with.

Chuq made the point that he had done exhaustive research on the way 
people use this stuff.  The fallacy he has unknowningly fallen into, 
and you have as well, is that the behaviour of the software needs to be 
tailored to the user base.  There is no single case that solves all 
problems.

However, you are advocating a reduction in choices by doing away with 
Reply To List.  And in my experience it just is not as big a problem as 
you people think.

The poster (Paul?) who said it's probably appropriate for 100 person 
lists but not for 20K person lists was right on the money.

- Mark, ex-resident of the techy vacuum
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Brad Knowles]

At 12:27 PM -0600 2004/02/05, Paul H Byerly wrote:

 Times have changed - lists are not long used only by folks who
 know how to build a computer from scratch and program it themselves.
	Indeed, therein lies the problem.  The kinds of silly problems 
that lead to the original page were things that happened years ago, 
back when most people had some sort of clue as to what they were 
doing.  The situation has only gotten worse since then, not better.

 A lot of user have been conditioned to hit "reply" without thinking.
	Without thinking.  That's the real problem.

 Additionally, a lot of folks don't want a private copy plus one to
 the list - and done as the author suggests there is no quick and
 easy way to send to the list only.
	Related to what you reference below, if you want to reply to just 
the list, all you have to do is hit "reply-all", and then delete the 
addresses you don't want.  That's even simpler than "cut-n-paste", 
because there's no "paste" part to that operation.

	Once information is destroyed, it is virtually impossible to 
recover.  At best, it takes a lot more effort.  It's a lot easier to 
ask someone to add the name of the mailing list as an additional 
recipient, if they should mistakenly send their reply privately. 
However, once information has been made public, it's impossible to 
make it private again.

 Then there was this:

 "Look at the original message header, write down the sender's
 email address, hit the "r" key, call up the header editing menu,
 erase the current To: value, and type in the sender's full email
 address.  And pray the correct address wasn't wiped out when the
 Reply-To was munged."
  Has this fellow never heard of cut and paste?
	This fellow has experience with software that doesn't work the 
way you think.  You'd be surprised how many people have software you 
didn't know about, or that works differently than you think.

 I've never
 had a problem adding the author as a cc, or sending to the author
 rather than the list.  Yes it's a bit more work, but as it's the
 exception rather than the rule for me it's not a problem.
	That's adding information.  That's not trying to re-create 
information that has been destroyed by the mailing list.

  Bottom line, I can understand that there was a time when
 reply to author made sense for a lot of lists, but I don't think
 that is the case anymore.
	I disagree.  I've been doing this sort of stuff for fifteen 
years, and I've been using e-mail and the Internet for twenty.

	IMO, this sort of thing is needed now, more than ever.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Brad Knowles]

At 8:02 PM +0200 2004/02/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 A good portion of my members (mostly newbies) use various web-based mailers.
 They haven't a "Reply to all" button.
 The members are newbies in computers - what I should do,
 refuse them in medical help until they buy own computer
 (a year average monetary income here) and master it?
 Please remember that almost all members on non-technical lists
 are FAR less savvy than you are.
	It is far easier to add information (e.g., add another recipient 
address) than it is to recreate information that was destroyed.  That 
is the point of the original page.

	Please, carefully consider the consequences of actions like this, 
and make sure that what you do really is in the best interests of the 
user community, even if they don't know it themselves.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Brad Knowles]

At 9:06 AM -0800 2004/02/05, Mark Dadgar wrote:

 My lists use it.  And my users prefer it - I know, I've asked.
	Do they prefer to have messages which they thought would be 
private replies being blasted to the whole list?

	Hell, I've been doing this sort of stuff for fifteen years, and 
I've fallen into this trap myself.  If I can fall into this trap, 
it's far too easy for regular users to have the same problem.

 Yes. And it should be clear that the user at the end gets the choice
 (and not some overly-clever maillist admin in between interferes ).
 Yeah, it's so damned hard to edit the To: line, isn't it?  Wow.  I
 don't know how people ever manage to send email in the first place.
	Actually, for some mail clients it is quite impossible to edit 
the "To:" field in a reply.  You can only edit that field if you 
write an entirely new message which is not a reply to any other.

	Unless you have decades of contrary experience and you can prove 
that there is not a single place on the entire Internet where certain 
types of poor behaviour are frequently seen, I would strongly urge 
you not to casually dismiss collected wisdom such as this.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Brad Knowles]

At 10:55 PM -0800 2004/02/04, Mark Dadgar wrote:

 
 This is totally ridiculous.
	Actually, no.

 The document you reference is a long attempt at rationalizing why
 we shouldn't bother to try to make mail systems Do The Right Thing.
	The document references a lot of experience that was obtained the 
hard way, where we found that certain types of behaviour on the part 
of mailing lists caused extreme problems for various users.

	Unless you have contrary experience and can prove that the entire 
rest of the Internet no longer functions in this way, I would 
encourage you to listen to this wisdom.

 The tool should fit the job and not the other way around.
	In an ideal world, yes.  However, this is the real world.

 The next thing you're goint to tell me is that we should train
 computer users to not use spaces in file names, because "it
 makes things hard for the IT guys."
	What if using spaces in file names meant that you could never, 
ever access that file again?  Wouldn't you be pretty upset if someone 
kept sending you these files with long filenames and spaces in them? 
What if your OS vendor was the dominant one on the planet, with 
greater than 90% share of the market, and they did whatever the hell 
they pleased and didn't give a damn about how many problems it might 
cause for you?

	This is precisely the situation that many users find themselves 
in, when it comes to their incredibly badly broken mail systems.

	Where possible, we should avoid going out of our way to make 
their life miserable.

 It's 2004.  Get over it.
	This is the real world.  Get over it.

--
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safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Chuq Von Rospach]

 Bottom line, I can understand that there was a time when reply 
to author made sense for a lot of lists, but I don't think that is 
the case anymore.


I feel that it really depends on the nature of the list - the purpose, 
the participants, the number of participants.
and the religious war begins again... (grin)

Bottom line: both sides have valid points. Neither side can declare 
victory. And every few months, off we go and have the fight again, 
which convinces nobody to change sides...

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Kevin McCann]

Paul H Byerly wrote:

 Bottom line, I can understand that there was a time when reply to 
author made sense for a lot of lists, but I don't think that is the 
case anymore.


Hi Paul,

I feel that it really depends on the nature of the list - the purpose, 
the participants, the number of participants. A small staff list? 
Reply-to-list, no question. A music list with 20,000 subscribers. 
*Please* make it reply-to-sender. And if the question is what should be 
the *default*, I'd say Reply-to-sender. Why? Because it is the option 
that makes the list admin think about what kind of list they have, just 
as it makes a member think about who they really want to send their 
reply to.

I have a large hobby-related list that was set to  reply-to-list once 
upon a time but as the list grew there were far too many "me too" posts 
and the like. Replies that were most appropriate for the original sender 
were being sent to the list. The value of the list deteriorated. People 
fled. By changing the list to reply-to-sender, members had to actually 
*think* about who they ought to be sending their replies to.

An interesting things to note:  I was somewhat concerned that important 
group discussions would decrease after making the change. That the list 
would become less valuable through a problem other than noise. I was 
concerned about bilateral discussions happening. Then it occurred to me 
that those one-on-one communications are every bit as important as the 
group interaction. Indeed, on my list, there now many valuable 
mentor/student relationships that have developed and I am often thanked 
for facilitating them.

- Kevin





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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Paul H Byerly]

I asked
  I have never understood why this poster is recommended, nor why it 
is  the default.  I've been on a lot of lists, on a lot of systems, and 
have  never been on one that defaults to sending a response only to the 
author of  the post I am replying to.


and Thomas Hochstein replied



 Thanks - I understand the points made there.  HOWEVER, I would say 
that the big list providers like Yahoo, Topic and the rest have made "reply 
to list" the expected norm.  Times have changed - lists are not long used 
only by folks who know how to build a computer from scratch and program it 
themselves.  A lot of user have been conditioned to hit "reply" without 
thinking.  Additionally, a lot of folks don't want a private copy plus one 
to the list - and done as the author suggests there is no quick and easy 
way to send to the list only.  Then there was this:

"Look at the original message header, write down the sender's email 
address, hit the "r" key, call up the header editing menu, erase the 
current To: value, and type in the sender's full email address.  And pray 
the correct address wasn't wiped out when the Reply-To was munged."

 Has this fellow never heard of cut and paste?  I've never had a 
problem adding the author as a cc, or sending to the author rather than the 
list.  Yes it's a bit more work, but as it's the exception rather than the 
rule for me it's not a problem.  And as a list manager with a lot of 
computer illiterate folks I'm very glad I've set up the most often desired 
behaviour as the default.  Mailman does not destroy the original senders 
identify or e-mail, so this part of the argument is moot.  Additionally you 
have digests, which can't reply to author automatically.

 Bottom line, I can understand that there was a time when reply to 
author made sense for a lot of lists, but I don't think that is the case 
anymore.

<>< Paul, who ironically got this to the list, not the author, by hitting 
reply (digest).

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Lena]

> From: Thomas Hochstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

http://www.metasystema.org/essays/reply-to-useful.mhtml

A good portion of my members (mostly newbies) use various web-based mailers.
They haven't a "Reply to all" button.

The members are newbies in computers - what I should do,
refuse them in medical help until they buy own computer
(a year average monetary income here) and master it?
Please remember that almost all members on non-technical lists
are FAR less savvy than you are.

Lena, owner of a medical list

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Chuq Von Rospach]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 9:06 AM, Mark Dadgar wrote:



My lists use it.  And my users prefer it - I know, I've asked.
self-selected audiences. I have asked users what they think, and gotten 
one answer, and I've done formal surveys soliciting feedback from the 
entire list, and gotten very different answers. Be wary of taking the 
sound of the squeaky wheel from the entire vehicle.

Yeah, it's so damned hard to edit the To: line, isn't it?  Wow.
for you? no. For non-geeks? you'd be surprised.

in fact, you probably would be. I'm not, I've spent a lot of time 
talking to them.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Chuq Von Rospach]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:01 AM, John Buttery wrote:

  If the whole concept of information being irretrievably destroyed by
clobbering Reply-To: willy-nilly isn't a compelling reason to you, I'm
not sure what else to say.
This issue goes away if we could stop trying to use reply-to for too 
many things. What we're really trying to do is make a bi-state 
operation tri-state, and bad things happen.

What reply-to coercion is trying to do is fake "reply to list". That, 
in reality, is its own operation. Mail clients ought to support 
reply/reply-all/reply-to-list (but with one or two exceptions, don't).

And to properly support reply-to-list, you need that information in the 
headers, which is done by the list-* headers mailman now provides. 
Which is why we grimace everyone says "icky! delete!" because that's 
how we'll ultimately get mail client authors to fix this right.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Mark Dadgar]

On Feb 5, 2004, at 4:37 AM, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
This is totally ridiculous.
No. Reply-To set to the list is evil (and for God's sake actually 
almost
no list I know of uses it).
My lists use it.  And my users prefer it - I know, I've asked.

It's 2004.  Get over it.
Yes. And it should be clear that the user at the end gets the choice
(and not some overly-clever maillist admin in between interferes ).
Yeah, it's so damned hard to edit the To: line, isn't it?  Wow.  I 
don't know how people ever manage to send email in the first place.

- Mark

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Don, 2004-02-05 at 07:55, Mark Dadgar wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2004, at 10:35 PM, Thomas Hochstein wrote:
[...]
> > 
> 
> This is totally ridiculous.

No. Reply-To set to the list is evil (and for God's sake actually almost
no list I know of uses it).

> The document you reference is a long attempt at rationalizing why we 
> shouldn't bother to try to make mail systems Do The Right Thing.

It is up to the reader if he wants to reply to the list or the the
single poster. So you should have two buttons there: one for "reply"
which replies to the sender of the mail (which is the original sender
and not the maillist-mgr-software) and one for "list-reply" (if the mail
comes from a mailing list).

> The tool should fit the job and not the other way around.

Yes. Just choose a good MUA which supports you in doing your job.

> It's 2004.  Get over it.

Yes. And it should be clear that the user at the end gets the choice
(and not some overly-clever maillist admin in between interferes ).

Bernd
-- 
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mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55
  Embedded Linux Development and Services


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[John Buttery]

* Mark Dadgar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-02-04 22:55:55 -0800]:
> This is totally ridiculous.
>
> The document you reference is a long attempt at rationalizing why we
> shouldn't bother to try to make mail systems Do The Right Thing.
>
> The tool should fit the job and not the other way around.

  I hate getting sucked into this argument, since it's been explained so
many times already (not to mention on the page you read), but...
  If the whole concept of information being irretrievably destroyed by
clobbering Reply-To: willy-nilly isn't a compelling reason to you, I'm
not sure what else to say.

> The next thing you're goint to tell me is that we should train
> computer users to not use spaces in file names, because "it makes
> things hard for the IT guys."
>
> It's 2004.  Get over it.

  Actually, I usually tell my new-to-CLI friends not to use spaces or
other special characters because it will make things hard for _them_
later...
  You're shoehorning a semi-reserved field-separator character into the
shoe of a regular character, and by doing so, you're dancing around
one of the basic design concepts of the entire CLI "thing", regardless
of what year you happen to be sitting at the terminal.  Can you do it?
Sure.  But _should_ you?  Well, that's up to you.

-- 
  John  ! The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace
 Buttery! alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by
www.io.c! menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them
om/~john! imaginary. -- H.L. Mencken


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Chuq Von Rospach]

those of us who do email for a living feel it's not a rationalization, 
and not ridiculous. But those that argue against it do.

Sorry, but the fact that you don't agree with it doesn't change my mind.

On Feb 4, 2004, at 10:55 PM, Mark Dadgar wrote:

This is totally ridiculous.

The document you reference is a long attempt at rationalizing why we 
shouldn't bother to try to make mail systems Do The Right Thing.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Mark Dadgar]

On Feb 4, 2004, at 10:35 PM, Thomas Hochstein wrote:
  I have never understood why this poster is recommended, nor why 
it is
the default.  I've been on a lot of lists, on a lot of systems, and 
have
never been on one that defaults to sending a response only to the 
author of
the post I am replying to.

This is totally ridiculous.

The document you reference is a long attempt at rationalizing why we 
shouldn't bother to try to make mail systems Do The Right Thing.

The tool should fit the job and not the other way around.

The next thing you're goint to tell me is that we should train computer 
users to not use spaces in file names, because "it makes things hard 
for the IT guys."

It's 2004.  Get over it.

- Mark, ex-IT guy, apparently grouchy tonight
-
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Thomas Hochstein]

Paul H Byerly schrieb:

>   I have never understood why this poster is recommended, nor why it is 
> the default.  I've been on a lot of lists, on a lot of systems, and have 
> never been on one that defaults to sending a response only to the author of 
> the post I am replying to.



-thh


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RE: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Paul H Byerly]

Remko Lodder wrote:
actually it is on the general page, which opens up here when you start the
administrative interface...
a carefull watch should have told you that there is this option:
Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly recommended
for most mailing lists.
 I have never understood why this poster is recommended, nor why it is 
the default.  I've been on a lot of lists, on a lot of systems, and have 
never been on one that defaults to sending a response only to the author of 
the post I am replying to.

<>< Paul

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RE: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Remko Lodder]

Yes, checkout Defaults.py in the Mailman dir, and put the setting in your
mm_cfg.py

looking in that we find:

# Mailman can be configured to "munge" Reply-To: headers for any passing
# messages.  One the one hand, there are a lot of good reasons not to munge
# Reply-To: but on the other, people really seem to want this feature.  See
# the help for reply_goes_to_list in the web UI for links discussing the
# issue.
# 0 - Reply-To: not munged
# 1 - Reply-To: set back to the list
# 2 - Reply-To: set to an explicit value (reply_to_address)
DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 0

# Mailman can be configured to strip any existing Reply-To: header, or
simply
# extend any existing Reply-To: with one based on the above setting.
DEFAULT_FIRST_STRIP_REPLY_TO = No


i think you are going to adjust these settings in mm_cfg.py to override
these
default settings.
p.s do not change anything in Defaults.py , always use mm_cfg.py for that
also note that this goes for every _new_ list you create. (so you have
to be in control of mailman, if you have this via a hosting company,
i think that says : Though luck...)


Cheers

--

Kind regards,

Remko Lodder
Elvandar.org/DSINet.org
www.mostly-harmless.nl Dutch community for helping newcomers on the
hackerscene

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] John Poltorak
Verzonden: woensdag 4 februari 2004 14:28
Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Onderwerp: Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list


On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 02:23:07PM +0100, Remko Lodder wrote:
> yes there is,
> actually it is on the general page, which opens up here when you start the
> administrative interface...
> a carefull watch should have told you that there is this option:
>
> Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly
recommended
> for most mailing lists.
> here you can select what you want,

I thought there would be an option, but I just didn't see where it was.

Is there any way to make 'This list' the default option?



>
>
> --
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Remko Lodder
> Elvandar.org/DSINet.org
> www.mostly-harmless.nl Dutch community for helping newcomers on the
> hackerscene
>
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] John Poltorak
> Verzonden: woensdag 4 februari 2004 13:24
> Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Onderwerp: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
>
>
>
>
> Is there any way to configure a list so that a reply gets sent back to the
> list rather than the original sender?


--
John



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[John Poltorak]

On Wed, Feb 04, 2004 at 02:23:07PM +0100, Remko Lodder wrote:
> yes there is,
> actually it is on the general page, which opens up here when you start the
> administrative interface...
> a carefull watch should have told you that there is this option:
> 
> Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly recommended
> for most mailing lists.
> here you can select what you want,

I thought there would be an option, but I just didn't see where it was.

Is there any way to make 'This list' the default option? 


 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Remko Lodder
> Elvandar.org/DSINet.org
> www.mostly-harmless.nl Dutch community for helping newcomers on the
> hackerscene
> 
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] John Poltorak
> Verzonden: woensdag 4 februari 2004 13:24
> Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Onderwerp: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any way to configure a list so that a reply gets sent back to the
> list rather than the original sender?


-- 
John



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RE: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Remko Lodder]

yes there is,
actually it is on the general page, which opens up here when you start the
administrative interface...
a carefull watch should have told you that there is this option:

Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly recommended
for most mailing lists.
here you can select what you want,



--

Kind regards,

Remko Lodder
Elvandar.org/DSINet.org
www.mostly-harmless.nl Dutch community for helping newcomers on the
hackerscene

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] John Poltorak
Verzonden: woensdag 4 februari 2004 13:24
Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Onderwerp: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list




Is there any way to configure a list so that a reply gets sent back to the
list rather than the original sender?

--
John



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[Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[John Poltorak]

Is there any way to configure a list so that a reply gets sent back to the 
list rather than the original sender?

-- 
John



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to list

[John Poltorak]

On Sun, Mar 23, 2003 at 01:08:06PM +0100, Pascal Dreissen wrote:
> Hi John,
> 
> In the Administration Interface:
> 
> General Options - Where are replies to list messages directed?

Is there a way to set it as the default so that new list will be created 
with this setting?

Also, is there a command line way to do it? ie. where is the value 
actually held?

 
> Greetz!
> - Original Message -
> From: "John Poltorak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:00 AM
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to list
> 
> 
> >
> >
> > How do you set up a default list so that 'Reply-to' gets set to the list
> > itself?
> >
> > --
> > John


-- 
John




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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to list

[Pascal Dreissen]

Hi John,

In the Administration Interface:

General Options - Where are replies to list messages directed?

Greetz!
- Original Message -
From: "John Poltorak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 11:00 AM
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Reply-to list


>
>
> How do you set up a default list so that 'Reply-to' gets set to the list
> itself?
>
> --
> John
>
>
>
> --
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>
> This message was sent to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>


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[Mailman-Users] Reply-to list

[John Poltorak]

How do you set up a default list so that 'Reply-to' gets set to the list 
itself?

-- 
John



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