Re: [mailop] Anyone from Vade

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

Hi,

Have you tried using their new sender tool ?
https://sendertool.vadesecure.com/en/


Mathieu Bourdin.
Dolist.








De : mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] De la part de Al Iverson via 
mailop
Envoyé : dimanche 30 janvier 2022 18:40
À : Ken Robinson 
Cc : mailop 
Objet : Re: [mailop] Anyone from Vade

The person I knew at Vade seems to have left, but the process described here 
should still work:
https://www.spamresource.com/2020/06/what-is-vade-threat-list-how-do-i.html

Cheers,
Al Iverson

On Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 9:23 AM Ken Robinson via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
My IP address has somehow gotten on the Vade Blocklist. It is not on any other 
blocklist as far as I can tell.

How do I get it off the Vade list?

My IP address is 172.110.191.18

Thanks,
Ken Robinson
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www.spamresource.com
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[mailop] contact from 250ok needed about a possible false positive listing spike

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

Hi,

If anyone from 250ok is available, we are seeing a huge number of domains that 
appear as listed on SURBL on 250ok but not on the SURBL site when we do a 
lookup.
Are you aware of any issue ? is anyone seeing a strange beahvior like that too ?

Thanks for you help, you can contact me offlist if you need more infos.

Mathieu Bourdin
Dolist Deliverability team.





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Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

Hi again,

Sorry for the new answer but the previous one makes me look like an arrogant 
dunghole as it lacks a whole paragraph:

The issue you are facing is due to the fact that your sending infrastructure is 
(or at least was) seen by gmail as looking too much like a suspicious. Gmail 
has too deal with thousands of new suspicious senders each day, and if you 
don't abide by their rules (I'm not judging who is wrong or not on a technical 
standpoint: their domain, their rules)

The technical corrections you did are only the first step, now you have to make 
sure that each and every mail you send from your infrastructure complies with 
the greatest of all rules: send mail only to people who asked for it, and make 
sure you send only what they asked you to send. Contacting people out of the 
blue by sending to adresses "found on websites" is a dangerous gamble.

(re)Building a good sender reputation takes time, but it is necessary to reach 
your recipient's inbox.



Mathieu.



-Message d'origine-
De : Mathieu Bourdin
Envoyé : lundi 7 octobre 2019 16:19
À : Jaroslaw Rafa ; mailop@mailop.org
Objet : RE: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam





Hi,



Weel, basically your issue can be summarized in one word: reputation.



​



Welcome to email deliverability 101 ;)



Mathieu Bourdin.



-Message d'origine-

De : mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] De la part de Jaroslaw Rafa via 
mailop Envoyé : lundi 7 octobre 2019 15:35 À : 
mailop@mailop.org Objet : [mailop] Gmail marking 
email from me as spam



Hello All,

this is my first post to this list - I just learned about its existence and 
someone told me that maybe it is possible to solve my issue here.



I run my own personal mailserver at rafa.eu.org for quite a few years. All the 
time I had absolutely no problems with sending messages to Gmail. Few weeks ago 
I learned that Gmail suddenly started marking e-mails that I send to Gmail 
users as spam. As users usually never look into their spam folders, they don't 
receive my mail.



It happens mostly to recipients to whom I write for the first time (for 
example, found their e-mail address at their website and want to ask for 
something I'm interested in). People with whom I already corresponded earlier 
receive my messages as usual (ie. they aren't marked as spam), except for the 
case when I didn't write to this person for some time. For example, I wrote to 
someone two or three times half a year ago, and din't have any further messages 
exchange since then. If I write to him again now, the message can fall to spam.



To test the issue I created a fresh account on Gmail and send a few messages to 
it - they ended up right in the spam folder. I repeated this for three 
different accounts and noticed that clicking "This is not spam" is not of much 
help - ie. it helps for that particular account, but doesn't influence the 
overall behaviour that my messages are going to spam on other accounts (unless 
I click "This is not spam" on those accounts too).



The spam banner on the received message on Gmail account says that this message 
is "similar to ones already caught as spam", which is an absurd explanation 
because each one of the messages I sent was different. I didn't send a generic 
"test 123" or something similar, but tried to write an actual email message 
that makes some sense, different in each case. Also they are simple plain text 
messages without any HTML, links or attachments.



Of course DNS is configured correctly, ie. rafa.eu.org resolves to IP address 
217.182.79.147, and this IP address resolves back to rafa.eu.org.

I'm also not blacklisted. Obviously, I have never sent any spam-like message 
myself nor my server wasn't relaying any.



I asked on different forums and tried to follow the advices I got.

Previously I didn't have SPF nor DKIM (as I wrote, for long time it was 
absolutely no obstacle in getting my messages received by Gmail users), so I 
configured them, I also published a DMARC record. DMARC reports I get from 
Google indicate everything as passed, the same says Gmail in details of the 
messages I sent to test accounts. I defined a MX record for my domain, which I 
didn't have previously, because rafa.eu.org has an A record, so it looked 
stupid (and superfluous) to me to define MX for rafa.eu.org that points simply 
to rafa.eu.org :), and everything works perfectly with A record only. But 
someone told me that Google may be suspicious about domains that don't have a 
MX record, so I defined it. I registered my domain and IP address at dnswl.org. 
I also registered for Google Postmaster Tools, but it won't show me any 
information since I send too few messages to Gmail users (the description says 
that I need at least a few hundred messages sent daily, which I'll probably 
never achieve :)).



All this to no avail - my messages still go to spam (I just checked again on 
the third of the test Gmail accounts). I

Re: [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

Hi,

Weel, basically your issue can be summarized in one word: reputation.

​

Welcome to email deliverability 101 ;)

Mathieu Bourdin.

-Message d'origine-
De : mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] De la part de Jaroslaw Rafa via 
mailop
Envoyé : lundi 7 octobre 2019 15:35
À : mailop@mailop.org
Objet : [mailop] Gmail marking email from me as spam

Hello All,
this is my first post to this list - I just learned about its existence and 
someone told me that maybe it is possible to solve my issue here.

I run my own personal mailserver at rafa.eu.org for quite a few years. All the 
time I had absolutely no problems with sending messages to Gmail. Few weeks ago 
I learned that Gmail suddenly started marking e-mails that I send to Gmail 
users as spam. As users usually never look into their spam folders, they don't 
receive my mail.

It happens mostly to recipients to whom I write for the first time (for 
example, found their e-mail address at their website and want to ask for 
something I'm interested in). People with whom I already corresponded earlier 
receive my messages as usual (ie. they aren't marked as spam), except for the 
case when I didn't write to this person for some time. For example, I wrote to 
someone two or three times half a year ago, and din't have any further messages 
exchange since then. If I write to him again now, the message can fall to spam.

To test the issue I created a fresh account on Gmail and send a few messages to 
it - they ended up right in the spam folder. I repeated this for three 
different accounts and noticed that clicking "This is not spam" is not of much 
help - ie. it helps for that particular account, but doesn't influence the 
overall behaviour that my messages are going to spam on other accounts (unless 
I click "This is not spam" on those accounts too).

The spam banner on the received message on Gmail account says that this message 
is "similar to ones already caught as spam", which is an absurd explanation 
because each one of the messages I sent was different. I didn't send a generic 
"test 123" or something similar, but tried to write an actual email message 
that makes some sense, different in each case. Also they are simple plain text 
messages without any HTML, links or attachments.

Of course DNS is configured correctly, ie. rafa.eu.org resolves to IP address 
217.182.79.147, and this IP address resolves back to rafa.eu.org.
I'm also not blacklisted. Obviously, I have never sent any spam-like message 
myself nor my server wasn't relaying any.

I asked on different forums and tried to follow the advices I got.
Previously I didn't have SPF nor DKIM (as I wrote, for long time it was 
absolutely no obstacle in getting my messages received by Gmail users), so I 
configured them, I also published a DMARC record. DMARC reports I get from 
Google indicate everything as passed, the same says Gmail in details of the 
messages I sent to test accounts. I defined a MX record for my domain, which I 
didn't have previously, because rafa.eu.org has an A record, so it looked 
stupid (and superfluous) to me to define MX for rafa.eu.org that points simply 
to rafa.eu.org :), and everything works perfectly with A record only. But 
someone told me that Google may be suspicious about domains that don't have a 
MX record, so I defined it. I registered my domain and IP address at dnswl.org. 
I also registered for Google Postmaster Tools, but it won't show me any 
information since I send too few messages to Gmail users (the description says 
that I need at least a few hundred messages sent daily, which I'll probably 
never achieve :)).

All this to no avail - my messages still go to spam (I just checked again on 
the third of the test Gmail accounts). I only learned - by reading forums - 
that more and more people start getting the same problem. What else can I do?

It would be best to get an actual advice from someone at Google who will look 
into logs/config and check what actually happens. However, there seems to be no 
way to contact them - no contact form or something like that is published on 
the Gmail help pages.

Any help? I'm fighting with this for several weeks now, without any success...
--
Regards,
   Jaroslaw Rafa
   r...@rafa.eu.org
--
"In a million years, when kids go to school, they're gonna know: once there was 
a Hushpuppy, and she lived with her daddy in the Bathtub."

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Re: [mailop] [ext] Re: Return Path / Sender Score

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

In France the two terms are basically interchangeable and are used to designate 
the same process (user enters his adress, site owner sends an email requesting 
to click a link to confirm ownership of the adress, user clicks and is then 
added to the mailing list).
I’ve never had a client trying to use double optin for anything else than a 
user confirmation process.
I actually was a bit confused at first like you were, and wondered what the 
difference was (answer : none).
To be completly honest : I don’t even see what the difference actually is even 
now.
Call me naive, but I haven’t seen any case of « fake » DOI/COI in 7 years 
working for an ESP (not to say that I haven’t seen a LOT of pushback against 
COI/DOI, but that’s another matter linked to client education).

Mathieu Bourdin


De : mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] De la part de Alexander Zeh via 
mailop
Envoyé : lundi 26 août 2019 10:49
À : mailop 
Objet : Re: [mailop] [ext] Re: Return Path / Sender Score

This might also be an issue of different wordings used in different parts of 
the world. I started working in the email space 10+ years ago for the eco 
Association in Germany. In every document, in every personal conversation I 
had, always the term DOI was used. Not only by marketeers, also by postmasters 
and lawyers.
I heard the term COI for the very first time at a M3AAWG meeting, and indeed 
thought it’s the term for „I’ll send the recipient a confirmation email that 
he’s now subscribed“.
I’m not sure how these terms are used in other european countries.

Alex


Am 26.08.2019 um 00:06 schrieb Luke via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>:

Personally, I consider every effort to quietly redefine elements of language
to suit a particular set of political, economic, or personal objectives to be
concerning

As do I. I guess my argument is that this isn't what is happening when some 
email marketer says "double opt in" or "cold outreach."

If you're someone who hasn't spent a great deal of time thinking about the 
world's spam problem or haven't really given much thought to the consequences 
of not requiring some kind of confirmation before adding an address to your 
mailing list, the term double opt in makes sense.

Should they be corrected? Sure. Should they be taught that "double opt in" 
isn't actually accurate because the recipient is only opting in once. Sure. Do 
they deserve to be labeled a spammer or be told they are talking like a 
spammer? No. Is it some kind of concerted effort to normalize spammy behavior? 
No.

I don't like the terms double opt in or cold outreach either and I don't use 
them. But I don't think the term "spamspeak" and the allusion to 1984 is 
appropriate.

Luke




On Sun, Aug 25, 2019 at 10:06 AM Michael Rathbun 
mailto:m...@honet.com>> wrote:
On Sun, 25 Aug 2019 08:14:16 -0700, Luke via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:

>I did intend to send it to the whole list.
>
>"Spamspeak" makes it sound so clandestine. So Orwellian. Like there is some
>> subversive element on the list trying to turn the tides and normalize spam.
>> Sounds spooky. Sounds provocative. Let's run with this.
>> *Rolls eyes*
>
>
>But yes, I was poking fun at the use of the term spamspeak. The allusion to
>1984's newspeak or doublespeak is silly.

I have seldom been accused of being overly serious.

>If alluding to 1984 in the context of permission based email isn't a little
>funny to you, then I apologize for my remarks.

Personally, I consider every effort to quietly redefine elements of language
to suit a particular set of political, economic, or personal objectives to be
concerning, however "funny" they may appear at the onset.  (I leave out of the
discussion the fact that I once had a role in a stage production of "1984"
that made me more than slightly well-acquainted with that work.)

Rob's remarks were, to my knowledge, accurate and apposite.

mdr
--
   Those who can make you believe absurdities
   can make you commit atrocities.
-- Voltaire
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Re: [mailop] Return Path / Sender Score

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

Hi again,


First, a precision: my reply is missing 2 lines wich, for short, were saying: 
"but usually you don't get listed on the first sending to a trap, it's more an 
accumulation of emails to different traps that get you in trouble form what I 
understand of how traps work".
That's why when you ask for a bounce after data this is a problem to what traps 
users want: they don't mind about one or two emails sent to an address. They 
are much more interested in "repeat offenders", menaing senders who keep 
sending to the same adress time and time again without checking for reaction. 
Thay don't want to give any possible clue to bad actors by doing something that 
might be recognized as unusual for a mail server, and they want to keep 
receiving the mails wich prove someone is doing somthing wrong (on purpose or 
not is another question).

Second: yeah if the domain/address you are sending to was giving you "proof of 
life" (answers and so on) until very recently and is now being used as a trap 
that would be kinda rude (and not very useful to detect actual spammers), most 
trap owners I have spoken with usually say that they will bounce (hard) mails 
for at least 6 months straight on re-used addresses (and most say they do it 
for at least a year).


Mathieu Bourdin



-Message d'origine-
De : Ralf Hildebrandt [mailto:ralf.hildebra...@charite.de]
Envoyé : jeudi 22 août 2019 10:48
À : Mathieu Bourdin 
Cc : mailop@mailop.org
Objet : Re: Return Path / Sender Score



* Mathieu Bourdin mailto:m.bour...@dolist.com>>:



> >*** Shouldn't spam traps reject all mails after the END-OF-DATA? ***

>

> If they did, they would be easily identifiable, and thus would have no value.



Well, the sender wouldn't know if it's a trap or if the server is just FUBARed 
in some odd way.



> The thing with spamtraps is that they should not be in your DB in the

> first place (especially pristine ones) or should have been trimmed

> from your DB a long time ago (back when they went from a usable user

> address to a bouncing address before being reactivated as a spamtrap).



Yes, but we're using mailman, and always with double-opt in and (of

course) bounce processing (seriously, who wouldn't use bounce processing?!).



In fact, these spamtraps must have been hit quite recently when we already had 
the most recent version of mm2 (the one with reCaptcha). It's totally unclear. 
To me it looks as if a domain wen'T directly from "used for mail" to "used as a 
spamtrap".



--

Ralf Hildebrandt   Charite Universitätsmedizin Berlin

ralf.hildebra...@charite.deCampus 
Benjamin Franklin

https://www.charite.de Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin

Geschäftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155
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Re: [mailop] [ext] Re: Return Path / Sender Score

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

>*** Shouldn't spam traps reject all mails after the END-OF-DATA? ***

If they did, they would be easily identifiable, and thus would have no value.
The thing with spamtraps is that they should not be in your DB in the first 
place (especially pristine ones) or should have been trimmed from your DB a 
long time ago (back when they went from a usable user address to a bouncing 
address before being reactivated as a spamtrap).



-Message d'origine-
De : mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] De la part de Ralf Hildebrandt 
via mailop
Envoyé : jeudi 22 août 2019 09:45
À : mailop@mailop.org
Objet : Re: [mailop] [ext] Re: Return Path / Sender Score

* Michael Wise via mailop :
> 
> 
> Sometimes ... pristine ... isn't.

Thought so.
 
> Presuppose y'all are doing bounce processing?

Yes.


This raises a question regaring spam traps: 

*** Shouldn't spam traps reject all mails after the END-OF-DATA? ***

1) That way the spam trap addresses would eventually be removed by
   bounce processing

2) At the same time the content of the email could be examined by the
   spam trap operator.

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt   Charite Universitätsmedizin Berlin
ralf.hildebra...@charite.deCampus Benjamin Franklin
https://www.charite.de Hindenburgdamm 30, 12203 Berlin
Geschäftsbereich IT, Abt. Netzwerk fon: +49-30-450.570.155

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Re: [mailop] Hotmail: Moving Email to 'spam' folder generates ISP complaint?

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

Yeah, Microsoft has confirmed (can't remember if it was on this mailing list or 
during a conference) that any mail placed in the spam folder by the user (be it 
by clicking the "spam" button or by moving it by hand) triggers a complaint 
report.

I don't see that as a problem, I mean I completly understand the logic behind 
that. If someone wants to organize their inbox they can create subfolders 
easily, using the spam folder to "rearrange" your emails is just plain stupid, 
especially as mails in the spam folder are deleted after 10 days.


-Message d'origine-
De : mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] De la part de Benoit Panizzon 
via mailop
Envoyé : vendredi 16 août 2019 09:48
À : mailop@mailop.org
Objet : [mailop] Hotmail: Moving Email to 'spam' folder generates ISP complaint?

Hi List

A couple of days ago we found out, that Mircosoft offers an Feedback Loop to 
received complaints about spam incidents.

Perfect, one more source we can use to detect and block phished customers's 
account or trojanized devices. So we enabled this.

That works good so far, but we also repeatedly get @hotmail.com customers 
reporting very obviously non spam mails.

I was now in contact with two customers, both were puzzled about those spam 
reports we received and confirmed, they did not report those emails as spam.

One customer is using Outlook for Android. Another one just plain Outlook, to 
access his Hotmail account.

Both are moving read emails the don't want to keep to the 'spam' folder.

So I wonder, does the simple act of moving of an email to the hotmail spam 
folder generate a spam complaint to the ISP? And possibly impact the sender IP 
reputation?

No need to confirm 'yes this is spam I want it reported to the sender ISP' ?

Mit freundlichen Grüssen

-Benoît Panizzon-
-- 
I m p r o W a r e   A G-Leiter Commerce Kunden
__

Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel  +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 PrattelnFax  +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web  http://www.imp.ch
__

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Re: [mailop] Gmail Postmaster IP reputation shift on July 2nd

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

Hi all, and thanks for your insights/sharing

Looks like it was a momentary gitch, we see our IPs going back to 90+% green 
from July 4 onward, only july 2 and 3 show a dramatic shift from green to red. 
As mentionned by several people : no ill effect regarding domain rep or 
campaign metrics (ie : no redirect to spam folder).

[cid:image007.png@01D53572.E6F00090]
So, looks like everything is fine in the end, will continue keeping an eye on 
it just in case

Mathieu Bourdin.

De : Toshi Onishi [mailto:to...@indebted.co]
Envoyé : lundi 8 juillet 2019 02:15
À : Mathieu Bourdin 
Cc : mailop@mailop.org
Objet : Re: [mailop] Gmail Postmaster IP reputation shift on July 2nd

Hi Mathieu

Same here - 50% of our IPs went from Medium to Bad, then went back up to Medium 
next day and now its sitting at Low.

Domain reputation and others remained same at Medium, no spikes in complaints 
either.

Regards

On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 at 03:07, Stefano Bagnara via mailop 
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jul 2019 at 10:17, Mathieu Bourdin via mailop
mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
> We just saw that Gmail Postmaster’s Tools shows a very unusual amount of our 
> IP’s as « bad » in the graphs.
> Domain reputation seems unaffected, but basically we see around 50% of our 
> IPs for July 2nd and 75% for July 3 going from green to red.
> I saw no changes in sending habits from the various customers I checked (as 
> they all have dedicated IPs it’s fairly straightforward).

I can confirm the same thing from July the 2nd and we are a small italian ESP.
We (our customers) never had deliverability issues with Gmail.

Openrate (30%+) does not seem to be affected.

Stefano

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--
Toshiaki Onishi
Messaging Product Specialist
[https://indebted.github.io/sign/img/logo.png]
[https://indebted.github.io/sign/img/linkedin.png] 
tonishi<https://linkedin.com/in/tonishi>
[https://indebted.github.io/sign/img/call.png] +61 404 882 045
[https://indebted.github.io/sign/img/language.png] 
https://indebted.co<https://indebted.co/>
[https://indebted.github.io/sign/img/location.png] Level 3, 100 Harris St 
Pyrmont, NSW 2009 Australia

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[mailop] Gmail Postmaster IP reputation shift on July 2nd

[Mathieu Bourdin via mailop]

Hello,

We just saw that Gmail Postmaster's Tools shows a very unusual amount of our 
IP's as < bad > in the graphs.
Domain reputation seems unaffected, but basically we see around 50% of our IPs 
for July 2nd and 75% for July 3 going from green to red.
I saw no changes in sending habits from the various customers I checked (as 
they all have dedicated IPs it's fairly straightforward).

Some other French ESP representatives I chatted with see similar cases, I  
wanted to check with others if they saw the same things and, if luck will have 
it a Gmail Postmaster team member happens to be online and they have some time 
to look it up, that would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Mathieu Bourdin
Dolist Deliverability team.

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