RE: VIRGIL: TheMicroCapJournal
Hi ho. Time to switch servers, perhaps, David? Colin Burrow Senior Research Fellow All Souls College High Street Oxford OX1 4AL 01865 279341 (direct) 01865 279379 (Lodge) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sydney Franklin Sent: 28 February 2007 14:57 To: david@virgil.org Subject: VIRGIL: TheMicroCapJournal MGOA - HIGH OCTANE! ONE COMPANY THAT ALWAYS STAYS HOT AND UNDER CONTROL! MEGOLA ENVIROMENTAL SOLUTIONS Tickers: MGOA MGOA Open Wednesday: $0.05 Trade Date - WEDNESDAY Febuary 28, 2007 Megola Inc. is committed to solving environmental problems without the use of harsh chemicals that, in the long run, can have deleterious effects on company budgets and our environment. MGOA PROVIDING ENVIROMENTAL SOLUTIONS THROUGH ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: TheMicroCapJournal
MGOA - HIGH OCTANE! ONE COMPANY THAT ALWAYS STAYS HOT AND UNDER CONTROL! MEGOLA ENVIROMENTAL SOLUTIONS Tickers: MGOA MGOA Open Wednesday: $0.05 Trade Date - WEDNESDAY Febuary 28, 2007 Megola Inc. is committed to solving environmental problems without the use of harsh chemicals that, in the long run, can have deleterious effects on company budgets and our environment. MGOA PROVIDING ENVIROMENTAL SOLUTIONS THROUGH ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: unwanted ads -- moving Mantovano to Google Groups
The problem is getting worse, not better, so it's time to move. I'll make an announcement in the next few days giving details. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: TheMicroCapJournal
Salvete Mantovani! I am not too worried either, except that. like Leofranc, I haven't had any massages at all, and thus no opportunity to complain about them! Seriously, I am not too bothered either way whether we stay here or move: in utrumque paratus. Curate ut pancratice valeatis Petrus Scribebam Perthae apud Antipodas On Thu Mar 1 0:31 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] sent: Or the delete button. Any sign of the nihilists who used to infest the list, or have they all gone and got a life? (Sorry, I may be taking this too calmly because my ISP sets up dummy addresses and deletes automatically all copies of anything sent to them; in consequence I'm not getting the massages complained of.) Leofranc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi ho. Time to switch servers, perhaps, David? Colin Burrow +++ --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Is Momentum Building for This SmallCap?
MGOA - HIGH OCTANE! ONE COMPANY THAT ALWAYS STAYS HOT AND UNDER CONTROL! MEGOLA ENVIROMENTAL SOLUTIONS Tickers: MGOA MGOA Open Wednesday: $0.05 Trade Date - WEDNESDAY Febuary 28, 2007 Megola Inc. is committed to solving environmental problems without the use of harsh chemicals that, in the long run, can have deleterious effects on company budgets and our environment. MGOA PROVIDING ENVIROMENTAL SOLUTIONS THROUGH ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Working People Need This
Academic Qualifications available from prestigious NON-ACCREDITED universities. Do you have the knowledge and the experience but lack the qualifications? Are you getting turned down time and time again for the job of your dreams because you just don't have the right letters after your name? Get the prestige that you deserve today! Move ahead in your career today! CALL +1-561-828-9336 Bachelors, Masters and PhD's available in your field! No examinations! No classes! No textbooks! Call to register and receive your qualifications within days! 24 hours a day 7 days a week! Confidentiality assured! +1-561-828-9336 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Big News Expected This stock will explode
MGOA - HIGH OCTANE! ONE COMPANY THAT ALWAYS STAYS HOT AND UNDER CONTROL! MEGOLA ENVIROMENTAL SOLUTIONS Tickers: MGOA MGOA Open Wednesday: $0.05 Trade Date - WEDNESDAY Febuary 28, 2007 Megola Inc. is committed to solving environmental problems without the use of harsh chemicals that, in the long run, can have deleterious effects on company budgets and our environment. MGOA PROVIDING ENVIROMENTAL SOLUTIONS THROUGH ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: bullet-proof fix
Since I didn't receive the original spam I'm not sure whether it merited more than instant deletion like the anatomical extension and pump-and-dump share offers one expects to get; but if it is really a problem, by all means let us go to Google Groups. Leofranc Holford-Strevens In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes The software that runs Mantovano is old and far from bullet-proof. A possible solution is to move the list to a free mailing list service such as Google Groups. This would simplify my job, certainly! The main disadvantage is that everyone who wants to continue receiving messages would need to register with Google Groups. It's easy (and free), but it is an additional step. Right now, it's extremely easy to join the discussion -- and also easy to send spam. I do what I can behind the scenes, but some kinds of spam I can't intercept. What are your thoughts? --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Good grief!
There's really not much to say about this. I assume this is not bona fide Mantovaniana? If so: How did the interloper interlope? Cheers for peace! Mario --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: FIX THE LIST!!!!
satis dixit --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: bullet-proof fix
In a message dated 22/02/2007 20:45:49 GMT Standard Time, david@virgil.org writes: The software that runs Mantovano is old and far from bullet-proof. A possible solution is to move the list to a free mailing list service such as Google Groups. This would simplify my job, certainly! The main disadvantage is that everyone who wants to continue receiving messages would need to register with Google Groups. It's easy (and free), but it is an additional step. Right now, it's extremely easy to join the discussion -- and also easy to send spam. I do what I can behind the scenes, but some kinds of spam I can't intercept. What are your thoughts? I use google for other groups and find that it works well and is very simple to use Tamsin _www.tamsinlewis.co.uk_ (http://www.tamsinlewis.co.uk/)
VIRGIL: Google groups
Dear David, Let's hope the spammers get bored and go away. However, if it continues or if there's more of the same and this sort of thing continues to be a problem, then I would urge that we move to Google groups. Many members of ALSC moved there when problems cropped up on the main site, and everything seems to be going well. Cheers, and thanks for your good work. Mario --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: bullet-proof fix
The software that runs Mantovano is old and far from bullet-proof. A possible solution is to move the list to a free mailing list service such as Google Groups. This would simplify my job, certainly! The main disadvantage is that everyone who wants to continue receiving messages would need to register with Google Groups. It's easy (and free), but it is an additional step. Right now, it's extremely easy to join the discussion -- and also easy to send spam. I do what I can behind the scenes, but some kinds of spam I can't intercept. What are your thoughts? --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Garland and bough: PS
Further to my comments on the lines from Meleager cited by Martin: Gow and Page, in _Hellenistic Epigrams_ ii. 604 ad loc., do their best to botanize the golden bough: 'chrusánthemon is the name of more than one flower, and if one of these is meant there is no way of deciding which. Klw^na however suggests shrub or tree rather than flower and we should consider also chrusókarpos, _ivy_, and chrysóxulon, _fustic_, _Rhus continus_. Since _aei_ presumably qualifies chrúseion these seem more suitable than a flower.' Not a hint that the expression may be figurative, but also (which is more significant) not a hint that the phrase is paralleled elsewhere. Plato they refer to a note on the epigrams ascribed to him (and declaring 'Plato the Younger', AP 9. 13, 748, 751 to be too late for the Garland); but by saying of the participial clause 'perhaps bright with the author's excellence', but the phrase is flat' they eliminate any reference to Plato as a moral philosopher. A search on the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae produced only one other golden bough, in 'political verses' [i.e. accentual iambics of 15 syllables to the line] by Theodore Prodromos on the birth of Alexios, son of the Sebastokrator Anronikos, grandson of the Emperor John II (1118-43), great-grandson of the Emperor Alexios I (Alexius Comnenus, 1081-1118). John, called 'flourishing, very broad, and great tree' is informed that he has tw^n chruoklw'nwn aúxhsin ek tw^n paraphuádwn kaì tw^n blastw^n tw^n eugenw^n kaì tw^n apoblastídwn: (Carmina historica, 44: 39-40), which appears to mean 'increase of the golden boughs (the imperial house) from the offshoots (his brothers), the noble shoots (his sons), and the shoots of shoots (his grandsons)'; for the continuation runs 'Count with your children and your children's children this newborn Sebastokratorid too, the offspring of your sweetest child Andronikos. Add another new Komnenos to the Komnenoi, and attach another general to your generals.' It seems impossible to relate this to any image that might have been used by, or derived from, either Meleager or Vergil; but in so literary a culture as the Byzantine that suggests that Theodore knew no more of a golden-bough tradition than poor Cornutus, who alas did not know about the clipping of the deceased's hair either. Leofranc Holford-Strevens ' Meleager (whom Vergil can hardly not have known) is describing the poets whose works he has included in his collection as flowers or other delights for his garland. Some of the phrases seem more specific than others; they include 'Sappho's slight things, but roses' and 'the sweet myrtle of Callimachus, ever full of stinging honey'. The Plato intended is undoubtedly Plato the philosopher, but as the ascriptive author of epigrams whose authenticity we no longer believe in; there is no reason to read anything special into the phrase so far as Meleager is concerned, nor single out one couplet rather than set it against all the other impressionistic judgements in the poem. So far as Vergil is concerned, however, there is no reason why it should not have given him ideas; if he blended it with the Pythagorean Y and the Aureum Carmen, that would be entirely within his method, to draw on two or more sources and make something of his own. Leofranc Holford-Strevens In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Finding a literary origin for the Golden Bough has been very difficult, as is generally acknowledged. Servius, as I remember, says that the image comes from Pythagoras' belief that the bough or Y-shape represents the sharp divergences of fate. This is interesting but fails to say anything about gold. The only clear verbal parallel comes as far as I know from Garland, a poem by Meleager of Gadara who died about when V was born and who was quite well known: the golden branch of the ever-divine Plato, shining all through with virtrue. Mackail, who worked on both Meleager and V, remarks that this is one of the best-ever few-word critical judgements, assuming that the great Plato not some lesser poet of the same name is meant, and that it might have contributed to V's conception of the Bough - David West makes this phrase the key to a Platonist interpretation of much of the Katabasis story. For my less qualified part I find it hard to think that V did not know of Meleager's phrase; moreover we are aware that V, from his treatment of Berenice's Lock of Hair, which left Berenice's head as unwillingly as Aeneas left Dido's realm, was well prepared to take Hellenistic phrases which had been merely charming and turn them into something much more stern and dramatic. Perhaps the word charming underestimates Meleager, but I would think in spite of Mackail's praise that M was not really trying to be profound. His theme is the association of a series of poets with a series of flowers and fruits making the Garland: quite common botanical
VIRGIL: Garland and bough
Finding a literary origin for the Golden Bough has been very difficult, as is generally acknowledged. Servius, as I remember, says that the image comes from Pythagoras' belief that the bough or Y-shape represents the sharp divergences of fate. This is interesting but fails to say anything about gold. The only clear verbal parallel comes as far as I know from Garland, a poem by Meleager of Gadara who died about when V was born and who was quite well known: the golden branch of the ever-divine Plato, shining all through with virtrue. Mackail, who worked on both Meleager and V, remarks that this is one of the best-ever few-word critical judgements, assuming that the great Plato not some lesser poet of the same name is meant, and that it might have contributed to V's conception of the Bough - David West makes this phrase the key to a Platonist interpretation of much of the Katabasis story. For my less qualified part I find it hard to think that V did not know of Meleager's phrase; moreover we are aware that V, from his treatment of Berenice's Lock of Hair, which left Berenice's head as unwillingly as Aeneas left Dido's realm, was well prepared to take Hellenistic phrases which had been merely charming and turn them into something much more stern and dramatic. Perhaps the word charming underestimates Meleager, but I would think in spite of Mackail's praise that M was not really trying to be profound. His theme is the association of a series of poets with a series of flowers and fruits making the Garland: quite common botanical things, like violets, spurge, cyclamen and pears. When he comes to Plato does his golden branch come from a mythical or supernatural context unlike all the other ones? Or is he again referring to something quite common? The obvious candidate seems to me to the plant we know as Golden Rod, solidago virgaurea, which does have a pleasantly bright appearance and also has inner goodness in form of medicinal properties (good for kidney stones, apparently). The point I was thinking of is that if V is exploiting an inherited, rather charming, comparison of Plato to a common garden flower he is also transforming the idea that he inherits, raising it to another plane, and one should not assume that he retains from the tone of his original an uncritically flattering view of political Platonism. How nice it would be to find another source that took us out of the garden and into a rather more sacred and mythological realm where V's Bough seems to belong. Unless Meleager is using his anthology to encode some deeper ideas. - Martin Hughes
Re: VIRGIL: Garland and bough
Meleager (whom Vergil can hardly not have known) is describing the poets whose works he has included in his collection as flowers or other delights for his garland. Some of the phrases seem more specific than others; they include 'Sappho's slight things, but roses' and 'the sweet myrtle of Callimachus, ever full of stinging honey'. The Plato intended is undoubtedly Plato the philosopher, but as the ascriptive author of epigrams whose authenticity we no longer believe in; there is no reason to read anything special into the phrase so far as Meleager is concerned, nor single out one couplet rather than set it against all the other impressionistic judgements in the poem. So far as Vergil is concerned, however, there is no reason why it should not have given him ideas; if he blended it with the Pythagorean Y and the Aureum Carmen, that would be entirely within his method, to draw on two or more sources and make something of his own. Leofranc Holford-Strevens In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Finding a literary origin for the Golden Bough has been very difficult, as is generally acknowledged. Servius, as I remember, says that the image comes from Pythagoras' belief that the bough or Y-shape represents the sharp divergences of fate. This is interesting but fails to say anything about gold. The only clear verbal parallel comes as far as I know from Garland, a poem by Meleager of Gadara who died about when V was born and who was quite well known: the golden branch of the ever-divine Plato, shining all through with virtrue. Mackail, who worked on both Meleager and V, remarks that this is one of the best-ever few-word critical judgements, assuming that the great Plato not some lesser poet of the same name is meant, and that it might have contributed to V's conception of the Bough - David West makes this phrase the key to a Platonist interpretation of much of the Katabasis story. For my less qualified part I find it hard to think that V did not know of Meleager's phrase; moreover we are aware that V, from his treatment of Berenice's Lock of Hair, which left Berenice's head as unwillingly as Aeneas left Dido's realm, was well prepared to take Hellenistic phrases which had been merely charming and turn them into something much more stern and dramatic. Perhaps the word charming underestimates Meleager, but I would think in spite of Mackail's praise that M was not really trying to be profound. His theme is the association of a series of poets with a series of flowers and fruits making the Garland: quite common botanical things, like violets, spurge, cyclamen and pears. When he comes to Plato does his golden branch come from a mythical or supernatural context unlike all the other ones? Or is he again referring to something quite common? The obvious candidate seems to me to the plant we know as Golden Rod, solidago virgaurea, which does have a pleasantly bright appearance and also has inner goodness in form of medicinal properties (good for kidney stones, apparently). The point I was thinking of is that if V is exploiting an inherited, rather charming, comparison of Plato to a common garden flower he is also transforming the idea that he inherits, raising it to another plane, and one should not assume that he retains from the tone of his original an uncritically flattering view of political Platonism. How nice it would be to find another source that took us out of the garden and into a rather more sacred and mythological realm where V's Bough seems to belong. Unless Meleager is using his anthology to encode some deeper ideas. - Martin Hughes -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Fwd: Re: VIRGIL: Troia trisyllaba (corrigo Latinum)
- Messaggio inoltrato da [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Data: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 15:32:48 +0100 Da: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rispondi-A:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Oggetto: Re: VIRGIL: Troia trisyllaba A: mantovano@virgil.org Quoad attinet ad OLD in editione 1968 - curante LEE - locum citatum inueni (uide imaginem digitalem per Word programma redditam). In meis litteris electronicis adfirmaui quod Leofrancus dixit -RATIONIBVS DISPVNCTIS- ueri simile esse; loca plurima tamen iam examinata sunt atque etiam nunc examinanda. Exempli gratia desunt scriptores Ecclesiastici. Carmine This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Dux et femina
I've just been in a discussion of the ever prickly question of how far we should inculpate or find fault with Dido. The point was made that Dido is introduced as dux femina facti, someone who combines femininity with decisive leadership, and the claim was made that this combination is presented as unsustainable and that Dido's underlying culpa lies in her attempt to sustain it. The speech in which she inculpates herself to some degree - infelix Dido, nunc te facta impia tangunt? Tum decuit, cum sceptra dabas - was cited. Just to say that though the problem of femina/dux is undeniably an issue in Book IV, and an issue related to the painful question of Cleopatra, I don't think that this passage gives any support to the overall interpretation that I've mentioned. Even if the facta impia are her own - and some say that they are Aeneas' misdeeds, not hers - I don't think that the words can be made to say that she should have kept out of politics or been readier to submit to a dominant male. It's not 'it would have become you to be sensitive to the evil of those deeds before you thought of taking power' but 'while you were wielding power', which is rather different. The actual implication is not that a Femina can never be a Dux as that a Femina could indeed lead effectively if she could being knocked off moral balance by passion: and this sort of proposition surely applies to a Vir as much as to a Femina. One could say that in V's view every woman has a passionate bullet with her name on it, but this idea is rather subverted in V's text by the fact that Venus the huntress gets a clear shot at Dido only by taking very special measures.
VIRGIL: Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:33:46 +0800
probably LLL L L L L S S LSSL L praed(am ad)-| -serva- |-bant. huc | undique | Troia | gaza granted - quite strange - the 5th foot is definitely a dactyl - Troia can be scanned this way the 4th foot is the one that is more bothersome, but probably follows the rule that a vowel can be short before a mute followed by l or r (See Gildersleece and Lodge no.704) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mantovano@virgil.org Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:04:52 -0500 Caris Amicis: My AP Vergil class has found a line from Bk II, 763, that we cannot fit into dactylic hexameter. It reads: praedam adservabant. Huc undique Troia gazaAny advice? Denise D-Henry --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub _ Be one of the first to try Windows Live Mail. http://ideas.live.com/programpage.aspx?versionId=5d21c51a-b161-4314-9b0e-4911fb2b2e6d
VIRGIL: Re: scansion of II.763
Dear Denise D-Henry, I suggest that Troia be read as a trisyllabic, i.e., Tro - i - a. Mario A. Di Cesare Denise Davis-Henry wrote: Caris Amicis: My AP Vergil class has found a line from Bk II, 763, that we cannot fit into dactylic hexameter. It reads:praedam adservabant. Huc undique Troia gaza Any advice? Denise D-Henry --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: RE:
Ratio legendi GAZA est longa-breuis (id est trochaeus), propterea quod nomen est recto casu numero singulari, ut demonstratur a uerbis TROIA/ et ab ... EREPTA(764). Grato animo Carmine Iannicelli Scrive Neal, Marla [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The pattern I get when I scan it is s-s-s-d-d-s. The 'dam' elides with 'ad' in the first foot; Troia is a dactyl because the 'i' really is an 'i' in this instance. Marla Neal Latin Instructor Girls Preparatory School 205 Island Avenue Chattanooga, TN 37405 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Denise Davis-Henry Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:05 AM To: mantovano@virgil.org Subject: Caris Amicis: My AP Vergil class has found a line from Bk II, 763, that we cannot fit into dactylic hexameter. It reads:praedam adservabant. Huc undique Troia gaza Any advice? Denise D-Henry --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
[no subject]
This is my first day of subscriber / first message. I've been visiting Mantova- Piedole- Andes area two weeks ago, standing in Corte Virgiliana (very reccommendable place). Of course I am familiarize with the Conway-Rand controversy. But I don't know (and I'd like) if this discussion has had a continuation afterwards. Andes as Vegil's birthplace is fully accepted today? Thanks Daniel Martin _ ¿Estás pensando en cambiar de coche? Todas los modelos de serie y extras en MSN Motor. http://motor.msn.es/researchcentre/ --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil passages for comparison
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Helen Conrad-O'Briain [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes What passages are generally used as test passages for manuscript affiliation for Vergil? I have a list somewhere, but 1. I cannot find it, and 2. I suspect it might not have been a list that was necessarily generally accepted. At 08:40 PM 4/24/03 +0100, Helen COB wrote: What would the list suggest as passages to use for tests of text affiliations in manuscripts or early printed books ? To which David replied: Matteo Venier uses the following passages in Per una storia del testo di Virgilio nella prima età del libro a stampa (1469-1519): - E 1.6, 8; G 1.1-200; A 5.484-600 - incomplete verses: A 2.614, 640, 767; 3.340, 661; 8.41; 10.284, 728, 876) - interpolated verses: G 4.338; A 2.76, 567-88; 3.204abc; 4.273, 528; 6.242, 289abcd, 702; 8.46; 9.29, 121, 529; 10.278, 872 - interesting verses from the standpoint of early printed editions: G 1.321, 336, 2.126-30, 168, 449-51, 523, etc. Is that what you meant? Leofranc -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: virgil in history of art
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I am working on analysing paintings of Virgil in 18th and 19th =20 century. They show him in a very special situation: reciting the =20 Aeneid infront of Augustus and Octavia. This scene was painted quite =20 a couple of times in the history of art. Now I have two questions. I need the exact discription of this very =20 moment. I believe it is written in the life of vergil of which I =20 don't have a complete translation in hand. On this site it only sais: Much later, when he had refined his subject-matter, he finally =20 recited three whole books for Augustus: the second, fourth, and =20 sixth--this last out of his well-known affection for Octavia, who =20 (being present at the recitation) is said to have fainted at the =20 lines about her son, =85You shall be Marcellus [Aen. 6.884]. Revived =20= only with difficulty, she order ten sesterces to be granted to =20 Virgil for each of the verses. Donatus relates the incident to Augustus pressure on Vergil for samples from his poem: Cui tamen multo post perfectaque demum materia tres omnino libros recitavit, secundum, quartum, sextum, sed hunc notabili Octaviae adfectione, quae cum recitationi interesset, ad illos de filio suo versus tu Marcellus eris defecisse fertur atque aegre focilata An interpolation adds 'dena sestertia pro singulo versu Vergilio dari iussit'; a more skilful forger would have written 'pro singulis versibus . . . iussisse'. For what it's worth dena sestertia is not ten sesterces each (denos sestertios, a pretty paltry sum) but ten thousand each. After all, it wasn't the story-teller's own money he was giving away. For the suspicion of Livia's hand in the event, see Dio 53. 33. 4 'Livia received the blame for Marcellus death, because he had been preferred to her sons; but the suspicion was rendered doubtful by the fact that both that year and the next were so unhealthy that a great number of people died in them.' These texts were certainly available, but so of course were any number of potted and popular histoires littéraires; for what sources Ingres, if it is his painting you have in mind, might have read you had better ask a dix-huitémiste or a dix-neuviémiste, though as a schoolmaster he ought to have had more than a nodding acquaintance with the originals. Lwofranc Holford-Strevens Is there anything more specific and were can I find it? What sources =20 might have been available to the painters in 18th century france? In the painting I am concerned with there is Livia put into the =20 scene in a very special and suspicious way. Above her is the statue =20 of Marcellus and on her face a dark shadow. It is the first painting =20 to include Livia. While Octavia faints everyone shows some kind of =20 reaction only Livia sits there not moving and looks at Octavia with =20 contempt. I think it is an allusion to the accusation that she =20 murdered the emperors nephew. And again: what source might the painter have had? Which historiens =20 claimed that? Is this thaught of Livia killing everyone who is an =20 obstacle to Tiberius also mentioned in Aelius Donatus' Life of Virgil? I would be very glad if someone could tell me where and how to =20 continue my research. I have reached a dead end with my knowledge. Thank you very much. Greetings from Germany, Stephanie Roth= --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: cheap Latin Virgil: is there anything in print?
As I explained several weeks ago,a couple of us at my university are teaching a course on Virgil in translation next semester and thought it might work to assign a facing-page translation, i.e., the Loeb. Trouble is, even the revised Loeb is still too stiff sounding. I've abandoned the Loeb idea, but I'd still like for students to have the Latin text ready at hand,both while they're reading and while we're discussing it in class. This will give our classicists a chance to use their Latin for literary analysis and perhaps entice some our non-classicists to start learning the language. One solution would be to require everyone in the class to buy the OCT, in addition to whichever translations we assign. But for the non-classicists in the bunch, that is going to seem unreasonable: why should I be required to purchasea $35 book that's written in a language I can't read? My question then: does anyone know of another Latin text of Virgil that's in print and cheaper than the OCT? ---Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.orgdavid@virgil.org English DepartmentVirgil reception, discussion, documents, cEast Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet---
RE: VIRGIL: cheap Latin Virgil: is there anything in print?
What about printing the text from the Latin Library? Not sure how many pages you would need, but you could have them download and print the text. I'm thinking it is fairly close to the OCT text, but I've never done a thorough check on this. Not sure on copyright, but if you asked the students to print their own copy- they could go to the library, get the pages up, and pay 5 cents a page (or whatever Jim Stewart Department of Latin Sturgis Charter Public School Hyannis, MA 02601 From: David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org Reply-To: mantovano@virgil.org To: mantovano@virgil.org Subject: VIRGIL: cheap Latin Virgil: is there anything in print? Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 09:38:36 -0400 As I explained several weeks ago, a couple of us at my university are teaching a course on Virgil in translation next semester and thought it might work to assign a facing-page translation, i.e., the Loeb. Trouble is, even the revised Loeb is still too stiff sounding. I've abandoned the Loeb idea, but I'd still like for students to have the Latin text ready at hand, both while they're reading and while we're discussing it in class. This will give our classicists a chance to use their Latin for literary analysis and perhaps entice some our non-classicists to start learning the language. One solution would be to require everyone in the class to buy the OCT, in addition to whichever translations we assign. But for the non-classicists in the bunch, that is going to seem unreasonable: why should I be required to purchase a $35 book that's written in a language I can't read? My question then: does anyone know of another Latin text of Virgil that's in print and cheaper than the OCT? --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: cheap Latin Virgil: is there anything in print?
On 10/5/06, Helen Conrad-O'Briain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are there no second hand Mynors available on the internet? I checked: not enough cheap ones for even a small class. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: boiling the must
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], John O'Flynn [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Greetings to the list. Why, in Georgics 1.295, is the peasant woman boiling the must? Thomas's note ad loc. leaves me entirely mystified: The boiling down of must was a means of bypassing fermentation. How on earth can you make wine without fermentation? If you boil down the must you'll simply end with concentrated grape juice. In reading the _Georgics_, the first resource, especially on these rural matters, should always be Mynors, who writes on p. 68 of his posthumous edition (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1990): 'we turn back from the long winter evenings to a busy spell in October, when selected must from the wine-press is boiled down into a sweet syrup of various strengths, to blend with natural wines in order to improve them and make them keep (Col[umella] 2.21.4 'uinum defrutare'), or for use in home medicine or in the kitchen, or for sale. Varro [De Vita Populi Romani lib. I, cited by Nonius p. 551M [= p. 885 Lindsay, s.v. sapa], says that reduction by one-half produced _sapa_ (which is a festive drink in Ovid _fasti_ 4.780), and by two-thirds the _defrutum_ of _G[eorgics] 4.269. Pallad[ius] 11.18 adds _caroenum_, from redction by one-third; but there is some variety in the names used. In the full description in Col. 12.19-21, the boiling liquor is skimmed with bunches of fennel tied on sticks (V's _follis_), or with strainers plaited from rushes or broom. _dulcis_ is noted by Quintilian 8.2.10 as an example of the well-chosen epithet.' Mynors goes on to discuss the use of _Volcano_ as metonym for fire and the hypermetric elision _umor(em)_. On the next line he notes at _aëni_: Col. 12.20.2 and Pliny 14.136 advise the use of lead for the vessel rather than bronze. and considers a possible echo from the _Erga_ of Menecrates of Ephesus. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: artes romanae
Yesterday I was lecturing on these lines, which we all know by heart: excudent alii spirantia mollius aera (credo equidem), uiuos ducent de marmore uultus, orabunt causas melius, caelique meatus describent radio et surgentia sidera dicunt: tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento (hae tibi erunt artes), pacique imponere morem parcere subiectis et debellare superbos. (Aen. 6.851-53)Normally I concentrate on the last three verses. But while my mouth was unpacking pax and subiectus, my mind was thinking about the first part, which seems to confirm somethinga lot of my students think anyway, thatthe liberal arts are for sissy Greeklings. Some questions, which, one day later I still can't answer: - Is Virgil really on their side? - Is the force of these lines limited by their speaker, Anchises/Julius Caesar - Are the verses regretful? - Does it mean anything that Anchises omits poetry and philosophy? ---Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.orgdavid@virgil.org English DepartmentVirgil reception, discussion, documents, cEast Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet---
Re: VIRGIL: artes romanae
It's those exceptions, oratory and poetry, that give me pause. It's easy to be modest about poetry when you have something else to fall back on, such as a political career. So far as we know, Virgil didn't pursue that. He wrote about power, buthe didn't seek it. Of course,he did get influence, which is more than most of us have. But influence is not the same thing as imperium. Virgil's restraint, if that's what it is here, is something we don't see very often. It's difficult, whether you're a poet or merely someone whoearns his living by writing about poetry and giving lectures on it, not to makeexaggerated claims for what you do. E.g., Poets are the hierophants of an unapprehended inspiration; the mirrors of the gigantic shadows which futurity casts upon the present; the words which express what they understand not; the trumpets which sing to battle, and feel not what they inspire; the influence which is moved not, but moves. Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world. I wish I'd written that, because it's a great piece of writing. All the same, I'm glad it was Shelley who saidit and not Virgil. ---Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.orgdavid@virgil.org English DepartmentVirgil reception, discussion, documents, cEast Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet---
VIRGIL: boiling the must
Greetings to the list. Why, in Georgics 1.295, is the peasant woman boiling the must? Thomas's note ad loc. leaves me entirely mystified: The boiling down of must was a means of bypassing fermentation. How on earth can you make wine without fermentation? If you boil down the must you'll simply end with concentrated grape juice. Is it possible that Virgil is referring to a practice, still followed in some places, of making a very low-grade wine (piquette) by adding water to the already pressed lees? Does this involve boiling the whole mess rather than simply pouring boiling water over it, which is excluded by Virgil's vivid line 296? The idea of boiling the must prior to fermentation in order to kill infections hardly belongs to the pre-Pasteur age. Or could they have hit on this idea by pure trial and error? Can any vintners enlighten me? John --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
I ask the list to forgive me if the following all seems a little self-indulgent. It is Sunday morning, and I really am going to finish writing up a Beowulf lecture in a moment.Throughout this discussion, I have thought again and again (and I do think this has been touched on in it ) of how a writer who has taken a rhetoric developed for the law court or political debate deeply into his patterns of thought and _expression_ will not boggle to use anything that comes to hand to make (or rather win) a point at a particular moment in his argument even though his treatment of a topic may be apparently contradicted by his use of it two minutes or fifty lines later. I am thinking particularly of Augustine, but I suspect this habit makes it more difficult to decide generally in Latin literature well into the late empire whether we are faced with a true interior ambiguity or merely the impetus of the moment's argument. Perhaps this ought to be less true of the poet, and Vergil may well have been more honest in his persuasion than Augustine. I suspect this is slightly off topic - but it does seem apposite to me: what does the list think of Ramsay Macmullen's Romanization in the Time of Augustus. I have been reading it (yes, an important work for the understanding of the orthography of the Nowell manuscript scribes) while this thread has been unwound - and feeling a little like Virgil at the end of Georgics IV. Leaving aside that my copy, which was admittedly picked up on a remainders table, is very badly printed after page 132, and that I cannot really agree that the style is 'clear and readable' as someone claims on the cover, it is a deeply stimulating book whose attitude towards Roman acculturation is worth discussion and is a salutary reminder that we ought not read the present automatically into the past. I found it interesting in the context of the discussion on Egypt that at p134 he asserts that Agrippa's and Augustus' patronage of building projects,, an important factor in acculturation was essentially payed for by the wealth of Egypt. I can't help mentioning either that at p.123 he claims Romans introduced one of the true glories of Egyptian civilization (and I am not being ironic ), the domestic cat, to Gaul. To be quite fair, I must bear witness that 'Approval or admiration or envy, any of these lovely things that could be won from one's community' (p.113) is an enviable turn of phrase. Macmullen's last pages also recalled to me that surely 'barbarus' in Eclogue 1.70 is not an actual 'barbarian' but only 'barbarus' in his actions. Surely he would be a legionary veteran of the civil wars, quite possibly someone with connections to the area - unless in the rush of geography and movement of peoples in the preceding lines here is a further subconscious world-turned upside down image of Latins at the fringes and barbarians at the heart, a downward spiral of impius miles followed by barbarus. Perhaps this is merely the confusion of a medievalist wandering in Vergil (gawping like one of my ancestors in the forum), but in the heat of discussion and exposition in many books and lectures, it has often seemed as if we are reacting to the character as an actual barbarian. Not that being displaced by a returning local could make it any better for Meliboeus.Back to Beowulf. He is about to take Unferth very properly apart in a way that would make Cicero proud. In fact, Clodia was lucky Cicero didn't have him as junior counsel. The glorious gifts of Egyptian civilization who run this house have just arrived - Beowulf may have to wait a little longer.Helen Conrad-O'Briain
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
By 'racism' I mean 'irrational prejudice on grounds of race or nationality', which I think accords with current usage. One sign of irrationality would be crazy exaggeration of minor things. Syme's account of the Tota Italia propaganda campaign certainly suggests that irrational prejudices against foreigners were put to work and minor things, like mosquito nets, given a ridiculous importance. This is duly noted in the recent book on Cleopatra that I mentioned. I quite agree that the legal story, as far as the Young Caesar was concerned, of the Actium campaign was of a war of Rome against Egypt, where certain traitors appeared, most nefariously, on the Egyptian side. But this story is not quite what we get in V's account of the Shield, which I suppose puts a case to Republican sympathisers that they have a better deal from the Augustan than they could ever have obtained from the Antonian system. Antony does not appear as a love-slave tied to Cleo's ample apron but as a vigorous and menacing leader, using his position as a Roman victor in the East to carry the Eastern peoples (some reluctantly, perhaps) in an attempt to secure domination for himself in Rome. She follows him, not he her. No one thinks it nefarious for a wife to follow her husband and within the scheme of the Aeneid it is not forbidden for women to appear on a battlefield for a cause she believes in: Cleo and Antony would seem to have a Camilla-Turnus, rather than a Dido-Aeneas, relationship. I would think that the nefarious act in this passage, for the sales pitch to the Republican diehards, seems to be the introduction not just of a form of monarchy but of a form that brings Eastern political and religious forces into the Roman political equation: a sudden and unmanageable transition. It is better for everyone, including the easterners, whose rivers will now run more gently under Augustan tutelage, to establish a regime that will from now on respect Western-style religious restraints. The unpleasantness of the Triumviral period is over, and was Antony's fault anyway. Yet the reference to Egypt in the Georgics as the home a fortunate race that Eastern influences of all kinds on a united Empire would inevitably arrive and we should make the best of them. There seems to be some stress in V's thought here. Perhaps only in my thought. - Martin Hughes - Original Message - From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mantovano@virgil.org Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:54 PM Subject: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes . What was the sentiment to which V appeals in the Shield passage of A8 when he accompanies mention of 'the Egyptian wife' of Antony with an expostulation about the nefarious nature of the partnership? The racism and fear of Caesarian 'tota Italia' propaganda, as advertised by Syme? What is meant here by 'racism'? The scientific theories that were all the rage (not least amongst progressive eugenicists) until the Second World War and then dropped like a hot potato afterwards? Or simply the belief that certain other peoples, especially those against whom one is fighting, are inherently decadent or vicious, which is normal in all wars? (Think of the stuff the British told each other about the Germans in both World Wars; anyone who imagines the Second was fought only against the Nazis needs to grow up fast.) Retrospective moral judgements are for prigs, the kind of people who used to rebuke Martial for obscenity and then when the fashion changed for obsequiousness; or else for those who Compound for sins that they've a mind to By damning those they're not inclin'd to. Even if one happens to believe that some moral principle or other is timeless, one can no more blame those who lived before its revelation for not abiding by it than the most zealous Christian blames those who lived before the Incarnation for not being Christians. Augustus had declared war on Cleopatra, not on Antony, in order that the conflict should be with a foreign enemy with whom (as could be foreseen) Antony would treasonably ally himself, rather than a civil war against someone whose right to power was no worse than his own. Once the war was on, of course the enemy would be vilified: for the spirit in which Cleopatra could be viewed see (in a poet who had seen the dark side of Octavian at Perugia, and who sometimes plays at a dandyish sympathy for his opponent) Propertius 3. 11, especially v. 41 'ausa Ioui nostro latrantem opponere Anubim', even though in the previous verse he has acknowledged that Cleopatra was of Macedonian blood, and therefore not a native Egyptian (unlike Apion if you believe Josephus' defence of the Jews against his *racial* attack). But in Vergil the point of Aegyptia coniunx is surely less to tarnish her than to damn Antony, who (nefas!) had
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes By 'racism' I mean 'irrational prejudice on grounds of race or nationality', As opposed to a rational one? But of course if one believed the scientific theories in fashion before the Second World War, rational is precisely what racial hostility was. I quite agree that the legal story, as far as the Young Caesar was concerned, of the Actium campaign was of a war of Rome against Egypt, where certain traitors appeared, most nefariously, on the Egyptian side. But this story is not quite what we get in V's account of the Shield, which I suppose puts a case to Republican sympathisers that they have a better deal from the Augustan than they could ever have obtained from the Antonian system. Which was indeed an Augustan line, at least in Latin literature, as Syme shows; true, a great temple of Mars Ultor celebrating Augustus' avenging of Caesar is not the stuff to give Republicans, but it was aimed at a wider public than the narrow readership of literature. Antony does not appear as a love-slave tied to Cleo's ample apron but as a vigorous and menacing leader, using his position as a Roman victor in the East to carry the Eastern peoples (some reluctantly, perhaps) in an attempt to secure domination for himself in Rome. She follows him, not he her. No one thinks it nefarious for a wife to follow her husband and within the scheme of the Aeneid it is not forbidden for women to appear on a battlefield for a cause she believes in: Cleo and Antony would seem to have a Camilla-Turnus, rather than a Dido-Aeneas, relationship. Certainly by then (even by Actium, if one took seriously the speech Dio puts in Imp. Caesar's mouth) there was no need to maintain the pretence that the enemy was Egypt; but Antony's relation with Cleopatra is symptom, or cause, of his treasonable alliance with the Orient--at best Greek-speaking, at worst barbarians--against Rome, all Italy, and all decent Latin-speakers everywhere. I would think that the nefarious act in this passage, for the sales pitch to the Republican diehards, seems to be the introduction not just of a form of monarchy but of a form that brings Eastern political and religious forces into the Roman political equation: a sudden and unmanageable transition. It is better for everyone, including the easterners, whose rivers will now run more gently under Augustan tutelage, to establish a regime that will from now on respect Western-style religious restraints. The unpleasantness of the Triumviral period is over, and was Antony's fault anyway. Certainly. Yet the reference to Egypt in the Georgics as the home a fortunate race that Eastern influences of all kinds on a united Empire would inevitably arrive and we should make the best of them. But is that meant to be present in the mind? If Theseus can have two different fates in one book (Aeneid VI), it seems a little much to worry about what might have been said in another work all those years ago. And moderns are quite capable of doublethink about foreign countries too. France, in early nineteenth-century Britain, was both the deadly enemy and the source of wine; Grandfather Buddenbrooks heartily damns the French, but quite unselfconsciously uses the French expressions of his eighteenth-century education that no subsequent generation would have dreamt of uttering. Come to that, in more recent times much American culture and ways of thought have been imported into other countries by left-wingers who denounce American policies at every turn. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
By 'racism' I mean 'irrational prejudice on grounds of race or nationality', which I think accords with current usage. Racism is more than prejudice. It's a systematic bias based on prejudice against particular ethnic groups. The consistent inability to recognize the difference between racism and prejudice feeds into racism. -Yvonne --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
As a matter of interest, how came *** SPAM *** into the header? Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
I seem to be responsible for this, without knowing how to correct it. The Orange system seems to be profoundly suspicious of any communication with multiple addressees. A form of irrational prejudice, perhaps? - Martin Hughes - Original Message - From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mantovano@virgil.org Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 8:17 PM Subject: Re: *** SPAM *** Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race As a matter of interest, how came *** SPAM *** into the header? Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Nefarious conjugals with fortunate race
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rosemary Grayston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes . What was the sentiment to which V appeals in the Shield passage of A8 when he accompanies mention of 'the Egyptian wife' of Antony with an expostulation about the nefarious nature of the partnership? The racism and fear of Caesarian 'tota Italia' propaganda, as advertised by Syme? What is meant here by 'racism'? The scientific theories that were all the rage (not least amongst progressive eugenicists) until the Second World War and then dropped like a hot potato afterwards? Or simply the belief that certain other peoples, especially those against whom one is fighting, are inherently decadent or vicious, which is normal in all wars? (Think of the stuff the British told each other about the Germans in both World Wars; anyone who imagines the Second was fought only against the Nazis needs to grow up fast.) Retrospective moral judgements are for prigs, the kind of people who used to rebuke Martial for obscenity and then when the fashion changed for obsequiousness; or else for those who Compound for sins that they've a mind to By damning those they're not inclin'd to. Even if one happens to believe that some moral principle or other is timeless, one can no more blame those who lived before its revelation for not abiding by it than the most zealous Christian blames those who lived before the Incarnation for not being Christians. Augustus had declared war on Cleopatra, not on Antony, in order that the conflict should be with a foreign enemy with whom (as could be foreseen) Antony would treasonably ally himself, rather than a civil war against someone whose right to power was no worse than his own. Once the war was on, of course the enemy would be vilified: for the spirit in which Cleopatra could be viewed see (in a poet who had seen the dark side of Octavian at Perugia, and who sometimes plays at a dandyish sympathy for his opponent) Propertius 3. 11, especially v. 41 'ausa Ioui nostro latrantem opponere Anubim', even though in the previous verse he has acknowledged that Cleopatra was of Macedonian blood, and therefore not a native Egyptian (unlike Apion if you believe Josephus' defence of the Jews against his *racial* attack). But in Vergil the point of Aegyptia coniunx is surely less to tarnish her than to damn Antony, who (nefas!) had taken a foreign wife and thrown in his lot with her; had committed the crime, in fact, from which Aeneas had drawn back. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Ancient Geography
I have been trying to make some sense of the geographical place names listed by Meliboeus at Eclogue 1.64-66. In his commentary, Page suggests that they constitute the 4 points of the compass: North (Scythia), East (Oaxes), South (Africans) and West (Britons). This took me somewhat by surprise. According to modern cartography, from an Italian perspective Britain would be closer to North (or North-West), Scythia East (or North East) and the Africans South (or South West). [Since Page uses his schema to argue for the river Oaxes lying somewhere in the far east, I'll pass over it here]. Presumably, Page knew what he was talking about, so can anyone enlighten me about ancient cartographic conventions - and not least whether Britain really was believed to lie to the west and Scythia to the north? Obviously, what interests me most is why Meliboeus lists these particular places here. Any thoughts would be most welcome (and does anyone now believe that the Oaxes could lie in Crete?). Thanks HM _ Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.com/ --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Ancient Geography
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hippolyte Menshikov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I have been trying to make some sense of the geographical place names listed by Meliboeus at Eclogue 1.64-66. In his commentary, Page suggests that they constitute the 4 points of the compass: North (Scythia), East (Oaxes), South (Africans) and West (Britons). This took me somewhat by surprise. According to modern cartography, Which has nothing to do with the case; not even ancient cartography. What we need is neither the Barrington Atlas nor Strabo, but a poetic map in which the barbarian peoples are located where they need to be, because it is barbarians amongst whom Meliboeus, in disgust or despair, must go. The Africans are obvious; Oaxes is a portmanteau of Oxus and Araxes (if Shakespeare can speak of 'Ariachne's woof', why can't Vergil blend names too), and therefore stands for the east; obviously not Crete, a Mediterranean island in the empire, which as Clausen puts it would not 'be compatible with the African desert, distant Britain, and the frozen North'. The West has to be the cut-off Britons because Spain, due west of Italy as it lies, and even Gaul are under Roman rule. Scythia did indeed stand for the frozen North in the classical imaginary (think of the Riphaean mountains) because it was cooler than Greece or Italy; after all, the Straits of Kerch had frozen over in the lifetime of Vergil's father. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
This has been helpful. Apparently, the old Loeb is hopeless. I've taught the Aeneid many times in Mandelbaum's translation, and will probably continue. I would still prefer, however, to have something with Latin on the facing page. It would give our classicists an opportunity to actually use their Latin for literary analysis, and it might lure some of our non-classicists into starting Latin. Day Lewis had a facing-page Eclogues and Georgics, but I don't think that's in print anymore. For Eclogues, there's Lee and Ferry. Does anyone make a cheap Latin text of Virgil's opera? (Cheap = cheaper than the OCT.) --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
I'm planning to teach the Eclogues, Georgics, and Aeneid next semester in translation. Has anyone used the Loebs for this? Some of my students will be classics majors, but I'm assuming most will not. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
I would echo the earlier reply on staying away from the Loebs- they are good for a Latin-English quick check on something, but could be very dreadful for a student you want to inspire to read. There are several good translations of the Aeneid- can't remember off hand the editors- not sure on the Georgics and Eclogues. Jim Stewart Sturgis Charter High School Hyannis, MA I'm planning to teach the Eclogues, Georgics, and Aeneid next semester in translation. Has anyone used the Loebs for this? Some of my students will be classics majors, but I'm assuming most will not. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christine Perkell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes why not order two different paperbacks--one Aeneid, one Eclogues/ Georgics. I should think the Loeb would be deadly. I admit to knowing nothing about what students want, even in Britain let alone in America, nor have I ever looked at the Loeb in question beyond seeing what Goold had to say about some difficulty, but what is being sought in an English translation: something that gives a reasonable approximation to the surface sense, or something that has literary life? I can imagine that the former, if in workaday prose, would be deadly, and the latter convey too much of the wrong life; personally I find (for instance) Dryden a lot easier to take than Day Lewis, but that is because I appreciate seventeenth-century poets more than twentieth, not because in either case I feel I am reading Vergil. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
El 05-09-2006, a las 14:32, Leofranc Holford-Strevens escribió: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christine Perkell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes why not order two different paperbacks--one Aeneid, one Eclogues/ Georgics. I should think the Loeb would be deadly. I admit to knowing nothing about what students want, even in Britain let alone in America, nor have I ever looked at the Loeb in question beyond seeing what Goold had to say about some difficulty, but what is being sought in an English translation: something that gives a reasonable approximation to the surface sense, or something that has literary life? I can imagine that the former, if in workaday prose, would be deadly, and the latter convey too much of the wrong life; personally I find (for instance) Dryden a lot easier to take than Day Lewis, but that is because I appreciate seventeenth-century poets more than twentieth, not because in either case I feel I am reading Vergil. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* _* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* _* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
- Original Message - From: Antonio Cussen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mantovano@virgil.org Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:16 AM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text? El 05-09-2006, a las 14:32, Leofranc Holford-Strevens escribió: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christine Perkell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes why not order two different paperbacks--one Aeneid, one Eclogues/ Georgics. I should think the Loeb would be deadly. I admit to knowing nothing about what students want, even in Britain let alone in America, nor have I ever looked at the Loeb in question beyond seeing what Goold had to say about some difficulty, but what is being sought in an English translation: something that gives a reasonable approximation to the surface sense, or something that has literary life? I can imagine that the former, if in workaday prose, would be deadly, and the latter convey too much of the wrong life; personally I find (for instance) Dryden a lot easier to take than Day Lewis, but that is because I appreciate seventeenth-century poets more than twentieth, not because in either case I feel I am reading Vergil. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* _* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* _* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
Dear Colleagues, I agree with Christine Perkell: The Loeb would be deadly for such a course. There are several fine modern translations available, none of which of course is Vergil. Personally, I find Dryden's unattractive and difficult to read -- the end-stopped couplets seem to me the antithesis of epic style. Cheers, Mario A. Di Cesare In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christine Perkell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes why not order two different paperbacks--one Aeneid, one Eclogues/ Georgics. I should think the Loeb would be deadly. I admit to knowing nothing about what students want, even in Britain let alone in America, nor have I ever looked at the Loeb in question beyond seeing what Goold had to say about some difficulty, but what is being sought in an English translation: something that gives a reasonable approximation to the surface sense, or something that has literary life? I can imagine that the former, if in workaday prose, would be deadly, and the latter convey too much of the wrong life; personally I find (for instance) Dryden a lot easier to take than Day Lewis, but that is because I appreciate seventeenth-century poets more than twentieth, not because in either case I feel I am reading Vergil. Leofranc Holford-Strevens --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Loeb for student text?
In my Dante course I some times assign the Aeneid in the Mandelbaum translation, which students actually read. I agree that the Loeb would not work very well. I'm planning to teach the Eclogues, Georgics, and Aeneid next semester in translation. Has anyone used the Loebs for this? Some of my students will be classics majors, but I'm assuming most will not. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Vergilius Christianus
Colleagues, It only seems that we have neglected our Italian colleague's inquiry about Maro Cristianus. I must confess. Thinking that our colleague would find my childhood Italian, though somewhat barbaric and learned at home and on the streets of Greenwich Village (Little Italy) in the 1030s, less minatory than proper English, I wrote him off-list in a kind of desperate idiom: Piu di quarant'anni fa, l'editore Columbia University Press ha pubblicato un mio libro, Vida's Christiad and Vergilian Epic. La potrei trovare, particolarmente nel capitolo secondo (Vida's Ars poetica and Vergilian Humanism), studi brevi di poeti cristiani epici del quattrocento, fra cui il Mantovano. Non ho usato l'appellazione di Vergilio cristiano perche, come certe ti e' noto, erano altri poeti nominati cosi -- fra cui Vida e Sannazaro. Slim pickings, anyway. In another email, I noted the interesting study of Mantuan by Vladimir Zabughin, Un beato poeta (Rome 1917) and Zabughin's compact pages on Mantuan in his splendid two-volume Vergilio nel Rinascimento Italiano: Da Dante a Torquato Tasso, Bologna: Zanichelli 1921-23. Cheers, Mario --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: seduction by Aeneid
I'm sorry no one has picked up the Christianus Maro query. This is the exactly the right place for that kind of question. I have just finished watching a Spanish film, Son de mar (1998), directed by Bigas Luna. The main character, Ulises, teaches literature at a high school by the sea and wins the love of his landlord's daughter by reciting lines (in Spanish, not Latin) from the Aeneid. There's the cave, of course, and a passage which never seemed sexy to me, the description of two snakes breasting the waves and squeezing Laocoon. This second passage is apparently the girl's favorite, and he recites it to her at key points in the story (either prior to or during sex). I won't say anything more about the plot, in case anyone wants to go out and see it on DVD. Suffice it to say that the main character has more in common with his namesake than with Aeneas. If you've read Cavafy's poem Ithaka, you know more or less what the problem is going to be. I was struck by two things: 1. All poetry, even about man-eating snakes, becomes sexy when chanted slowly, in a serious voice, by a man with no shirt on. 2. There really is something erotic, and not just tragic, about Juno making the signal for marriage at the mouth of the cave. Maybe that was obvious -- it was probably obvious to me when I was eighteen and read the poem for the first time -- but it's apparently something you can forget. I had. Martin Hughes commented on the HBO series Rome a few months back: in spite of the lurid sex and all of the historical nonsense, I think that the series does convey an interesting, even in the end subtle, view of Caesar as someone half convinced of a half truth, that he is acting in the end from religious rather than self-interested motives. Also the view explored by V in E5? My reaction wasn't so philosophical. I liked the animated graffiti in the title sequence of each episode, and I thought the incest between Octavian and Octavia was just ridiculous. Don't worry, it's unlikely that I seeded you, he tells her the next time they see each other. Seeded you! What I like about this Octavian, though, is that, while he's calculating, he's not actually cold, so much as clear-seeing. I've seen cold, ruthless, administrative Octavian scores of times and this is more interesting. Don't know how much of this is the script, and how much the actor's warmth (he was the blond boy who loses his arm a few years back in Master and Commander), but I'm grateful. While I am gathering up loose threads: belated congratulations are due here to Leofranc Holford-Strevens, whose Aulus Gellius, with its learned and sometimes stinging prose, is now available in a second edition AND in paperback. This is one of the few books I know of that's written by a classicist AND takes scholarship from the Renaissance seriously. Too much of what is called reception history is really just checking to see whether your predecessors in the Renaissance agreed with you and, if they didn't, then too bad for them. The old commentaries weren't any more infallible than the modern ones, but there are still things we can learn from them. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: seduction by Aeneid
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes I'm sorry no one has picked up the Christianus Maro query. This is the exactly the right place for that kind of question. I did not reply because I supposed that someone else must have had more dealings with Mantuan than I had: I quote his counter to leap-year superstition in _The Oxford Companion to the Year_, p. 681 and note at p. 128 (on his day 20 March) that 'He is the good old Mantuan misquoted by Holofernes in _Love's Labour's Lost_, IV. ii' (though some editions clean up the quotation). But when no-one had written, David's kind words prompted me to contribute. I have just finished watching a Spanish film, Son de mar (1998), directed by Bigas Luna. The main character, Ulises, teaches literature at a high school by the sea and wins the love of his landlord's daughter by reciting lines (in Spanish, not Latin) from the Aeneid. There's the cave, of course, and a passage which never seemed sexy to me, the description of two snakes breasting the waves and squeezing Laocoon. This second passage is apparently the girl's favorite, and he recites it to her at key points in the story (either prior to or during sex). Well, (near)-strangling is attested as an erotic practice, not least for its effect on the male member... Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Christianus Maro
forwarded for Andrea Severi Hello, I'm studing the so called Christianus Maro (Erasmo), i.e. Baptista Spagnoli, the Mantuan (Mantua 1447-1516). He was a carmelitan friar and a very important poet for European Renaissance (England, Germany above all..). Spenser and Milton knew before this umanistic Mantuan than the most famous Marone. Who of you has studied the 'Christianus Maro'? best regards Andrea Severi University of Bologna [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: usefulness of list
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. DDH - Original Message - From: David Wilson-Okamura To: mantovano@virgil.org Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 2:12 PM Subject: VIRGIL: usefulness of list In reference to the recent advertisement for a Renoir exhibit: Mantovano is not a high-traffic mailing list. I am content with that, would boast, even, that its usefulness, such as it is, derives from the singlemindedness of its devotion to one subject, and one subject only: the life, works, and reception of the Roman poet Virgil. If it's not about Virgil -- and maybe there's a famous Renoir painting of Dido that I don't know about -- please don't post it here.---Dr. David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org david@virgil.orgEnglish Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, cEast Carolina University Sparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet--To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). Youcan also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: usefulness of list
In reference to the recent advertisement for a Renoir exhibit: Mantovano is not a high-traffic mailing list. I am content with that, would boast, even, that its usefulness, such as it is, derives from the singlemindedness of its devotion to one subject, and one subject only: the life, works, and reception of the Roman poet Virgil. If it's not about Virgil -- and maybe there's a famous Renoir painting of Dido that I don't know about -- please don't post it here. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: FW: See Renoir's Women
From: Columbus Museum of Art [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: See Renoir's Women Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 00:21:20 +1000 If you are having trouble viewing this email please copy and paste the following URL into your web browser: http://columbusmuseumofart.cmail1.com/.aspx/e/13970/2005768/ --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas' Character
I suspect that Virgil intended Aeneas to be a hero Augustus would have viewed as ideal. The degree to which his epic is ironic has been the subject of much debate. I was taught (by a prof who ignored the irony) that Creusa dies so that Aeneas may found a new Troy via a new marriage. It was not wrong of Aeneas to tell Creusa to follow him; rather, it was an assertion of the patriarchal notion of male power, control, and continuity. One can always find another wife, after all. Creusa seems to cooperate with the patriarchal order when she appears to Aeneas after her death. She does not accuse him, as Dido will; she just points him in the direction he must take to fulfill his mission. At 06:07 PM 5/28/2005 +0100, you wrote: Do you agree that Aeneas is a brave but bewildered man, suffering often through his own fault? I think this is a fairly accurate assessment of him and is seen especially in the section on Creusa and his desperate search for her after she has disappeared. If he had not had told her to follow from behind, the chances are she would not have gone missing. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Health Happiness, Melanie Austin AmeriPlanUSA, Sales Broker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Office: 206 784 7070
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas' Character
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Melanie Austin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I suspect that Virgil intended Aeneas to be a hero Augustus would have viewed as ideal. The degree to which his epic is ironic has been the subject of much debate. I was taught (by a prof who ignored the irony) that Creusa dies so that Aeneas may found a new Troy via a new marriage. It was not wrong of Aeneas to tell Creusa to follow him; rather, it was an assertion of the patriarchal notion of male power, control, and continuity. One can always find another wife, after all. Creusa seems to cooperate with the patriarchal order when she appears to Aeneas after her death. Which Vergil after all was not challenging. Besides, for the purposes of the plot he needed Aeneas to be wifeless when he arrived in Carthage; he could have made him a widower before the fall, but the loss described is more pathetic. (And Creusa, like its masculine counterpart Creon, was the favoured name for a genealogical item invented at need.) She does not accuse him, as Dido will; she just points him in the direction he must take to fulfill his mission. And that is part at least of what she is there for. In both ancient and modern literature, it is the fault of 'Anglo-Saxons' to focus on characters as if they were real human beings to the exclusion of their function within the work of literature. It is easy enough to read Homer for real human beings; but was Vergil so concerned? Dido, who has negative features often overlooked, is 'real', or rounded, enough; but it is precisely when Aeneas steps out of the Idealized Roman to be an individual that he is, at least morally, most fallible: falling for Dido, killing Turnus. But there again, historical aetiology requires Dido to have ground for cursing him; and can anyone envisage Turnus settling down as either a private citizen or the First Minister of Aeneas' government without nurturing his resentment or being the focus for any malcontents? Neither poetically nor politically is the individual the be-all and end-all that English-speakers seem to wish. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: The three stags
Aeneas uses the deer hunt to steady his nerves and reassert some feeling of being in control after the storm, which had brought him near death both from the waves and from the depression or despair that is never too far from him. Hunting is an expression, rather therapeutic in effect, of human control over nature. But hunting, because it is a display of power, is also a possible occasion of discord, even an opportunity for ruthlessness. Venus' rather charming appearance as a huntress, showing off her legs, presumably the best in the universe, conceals the sternness of her purpose. Juno has been hunting the Trojan remnant like animals, now it is Venus' turn to strike back by hunting and trapping Juno's courageous and loving devotee, Dido. The imagery continues with the wounded deer, whose status as private property is not recognised, in Book VII. V always treats nature as a political subject. The reasons why scenes are beautiful and useful is always in part political f! rom E1 onwards - again, V treats politics as, to a major extent, an expression of religion. 'Divini gloria ruris' is a natural, political and theological idea. - Martin Hughes --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: The three stags
Aeneas uses the deer hunt to steady his nerves and reassert some feeling of being in control after the storm, which had brought him near death both from the waves and from the depression or despair that is never too far from him. Hunting is an expression, rather therapeutic in effect, of human control over nature. But hunting, because it is a display of power, is also a possible occasion of discord, even an opportunity for ruthlessness. I agree but what Aeneas did in the passage in question is more of a 'turkey shoot' than a hunt. No skill in tracking or stalking was involved: the deer simply presented themselves and allowed themselves to be shot. I suppose a subtext is that the deer were made available for Aeneas and his men by a divine hand. Is there possibly some allusion to the Venus and Adonis story here to where V dresses like Diana and chases deer and things in order to get closer to A? Patrick Roper --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Vergil's Garden website
No bites yet on nature in the Aeneid. But I did just receive notice of a new Georgics website: Vergil's Garden by Holt Parker http://classics.uc.edu/~parker/hortus/vergilsgarden.html Vergil's Garden is an illustrated guide to the plants in Vergil's Georgics. I plan to expand the site later to include the Eclogues and Aeneid. Rationale: My students and I are triply removed from Vergil's world. First, we are almost all city kids. We barely know a oak from an elm. Second, we're Americans. Even if we have some vague mental picture of a pine tree, we're probably thinking of an American Christmas tree, a scotch pine (Pinus sylvestris) or the like, and not what Vergil saw: pinus the huge, spreading Italian Umbrella Pine (Pinus pinea). Third, we're separated by time. We read rosa, but we think huge hybridized tea roses or long-stemmed Valentine roses the color of coagulated blood, rather than the simpler flower of Vergil's day. This means that when we're reading Vergil, we look up ilex and we find holmoak. All we've done is translate one word we don't know into another we don't know. The purpose of Vergil's Garden is to give us at least some idea for what Vergil saw and smelled and tasted and heard. Ideally, of course, the only thing to do is for me and students to pack our copies of Vergil and go to Italy. We'd spend the mornings going to farms, parks, forests, and especially wineries, and the afternoons (post nap) reading Latin together. Donations are gladly accepted. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Aeneid two voices et al. and cat. 64
I'm teaching vergil AP and was trying to use Ralph Johnson's idea of the Aeneid as fiction not myth, that is, a quasi-novelistic questioning of myth. My students wondered how Johnson relates to the rather heroic (in all senses) interpretation of myth by the joseph campbell types. My students take the Campbell approasch as rather Augustan (as Augustus is understood by those who read his propaganda machine, as .P Zanker et al do). On another note: I wonder what others who taught the Latin of Catullus 64 last year for the first time in Lat. Lit. think. I myself would much rather teach 64 in trans. read in Latin 63 (the Attis poem)--you could do the whole thing, and it's a much greater poem, virtuoso and ultimately drammatic; for me, 64 is a forced attempt to create a masterwork. I wonder if it's really finished; surely he would have edited out some of the redundant uses of cor?
VIRGIL: nature in the Aeneid
I've been reading over the Two Voices controversy, and thinking about the poem that phrase alludes to. It comes, I assume, from Tennyson's early dialogue The Two Voices. The voices are those of Hope and Despair, Life and Death (Were it not better not to be). The poem ends with the speaker going outdoors: And forth into the fields I went, And Nature’s living motion lent The pulse of hope to discontent. I wonder’d at the bounteous hours, The slow result of winter showers: You scarce could see the grass for flowers. I wonder’d, while I paced along: The woods were fill’d so full with song, There seem’d no room for sense of wrong; And all so variously wrought, I marvell’d how the mind was brought To anchor by one gloomy thought; And wherefore rather I made choice To commune with that barren voice, Than him that said, ‘Rejoice! Rejoice!’ This doesn't stop Tennyson from hearing voices. As he will observe in In Memoriam, nature is not consistently kindly; she is red, rather, in tooth and claw, careless of individuals and even of whole species. What does Virgil think of nature, specifically in the Aeneid? There's a lot of writing about this in the Georgics, but what about Virgil's epic? The gods in that poem are pretty beastly. Are the fields and floods any more benign? --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil dissertation in art history - abstract
Does the iconography, developed for Christian readers, suggest that V was regarded as Prophet of the Gentiles? - Martin Hughes --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Dis = dis 'wealthy'?
Last week I asked: Commentators in the Renaissance routinely explain the proper name Dis as dis 'wealthy'. Cf. Plouton from Ploutos in Plato, Crat. 403a. I have two questions... Leofranc Holford-Strevens (who else?) answered: At least as old as Cicero (De natura deorum 2. 66), though Quintilian (1. 6. 34) took it to operate by contraries (quia minime dives). Please accept my belated thanks. One thing I have learned over the last ten years of writing on this subject is not to underestimate the early commentators. Some of what they say is crackers. But much of it, I have learned, turns out to be based on very old -- and therefore very relevant -- sources. Here, another case in point. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Chaonia again
I was struck by the role played by poetry - rather insistently minor poetry, perhaps - in the official reaction to the 7/7 terrorist incident in London. In one way, I thought that there was something rather nice about the implied message to al Qaeda - 'you've got the bombs, we've got the poems'. V does dwell on the idea of poetry as answer and remedy for war and perhaps for terrorism. (Maybe we should think of ancient terrorism, before there were explosives, as a matter of assassinations plus the marauding acts of certain violent bands, sometimes acting with official sanction, reminding the population of what would happen to them if they opposed those to whom the marauding bands were loyal. The officially sanctioned post-civil-war land redistributions are certainly presented as terrifying, perhaps as terrorist, by V.) But I think that major poets avoid the more facile optimism of minor ones. In E9 the poets are the Chaonian doves scattered by the eagle. It is not so mu! ch that poetry is able to put together what violence has broken up but that poetry - culture generally, perhaps - itself has become fragmented, like Menalcas' half-remembered verses, in the violent conditions of the time. In G4 Orpheus' effort to reclaim his victimised wife leads in the end to his own dismemberment - but then Aristaeus, originally an unprepossessing mixture of violence and self-pity, succeeds where Orpheus had failed in controlling the transition from chaos to order and from death to life. There is a vein of hope here, but definitely not of a facile kind. - Martin Hughes --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Dis = dis 'wealthy'?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes Commentators in the Renaissance routinely explain the proper name Dis as dis 'wealthy'. Cf. Plouton from Ploutos in Plato, Crat. 403a. I have two questions about this. 1. Is the Dis etymology valid? Ernout-Meillet accept it; and I don't know of an alternative. 2. How old is it? At least as old as Cicero (De natura deorum 2. 66), though Quintilian (1. 6. 34) took it to operate by contraries (quia minime dives). Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Dis = dis 'wealthy'?
Commentators in the Renaissance routinely explain the proper name Dis as dis 'wealthy'. Cf. Plouton from Ploutos in Plato, Crat. 403a. I have two questions about this. 1. Is the Dis etymology valid? 2. How old is it? --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Fall of Empire
I've just had a first look at Peter Heather's book on the fall of the Roman Empire and read a few online reviews - one of those occasions where the different reviewers might seem to have read different books. How we react to the Great Fall in the light of our own political preoccupations! Some react to the narrative by talk of an 'immigration crisis', some in terms of 'imperialism responsible for its own demise'. From our point of view, we might ask whether V was responsible for encouraging too much imperialist hope and arrogance, or even too much contempt for the non-Roman nations who were to become immigrants into Roman territory. I suppose that Romans reading 'imperium sine fine' might have been encouraged in a dangerous complacency, even arrogance, though perhaps only if their reading was superficial. When one thinks of Jupiter's character and concerns it is hard to take 'sine fine' at face value. Mynors, in commenting on the passage in Geo. about the inhabitants of! the cold and hot regions, says that V refers to the Goths and Saracens who were to bring the Roman world to an end. Did he mean that V sensed that these peoples would be to Rome, after a much longer siege, what the Greeks had been to Troy? The judgement on Troy seems to be that the city must fall - occiderit cum nomine - but that the city's work for the world would somehow continue in other hands. A message concerning peritura regna that avoids the traps both of arrogance and of despair. Well, I think I've concatenated as many unrelated passages, irresponsibly regardless of their context, as one well might in one short note. - Martin Hughes --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Fall of Empire
My theory: fall of Troy = end of republican government. Virgil doesn't know what comes next, but the change FEELS necessary, permanent. Cf. September 11, 2001. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Sortes Vergilianae testimonia
It occured to me recently that, while I'm familiar with the concept of the sortes Vergilianae, I'm not familiar with the sources that discuss them. Is there a collection of testimonia for the sortes? Also, what is the earliest reference to them? The sortes show up in the Historia Augusta's life of Hadrian: is any reason to believe that this is a Hadrianic-era anecdote, rather than a late antique fiction? --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Re: Illustrations of the Fourth Eclogue in Renaissance art?
Emma, Congratulations on the completion of your dissertation! I'd very much like to know if you found many illustrations of the Fourth Eclogue in Renaissance art. Although some have found the coloured sheep silly, I have always liked them. Depictions of the Fourth Eclogue seem to me to be rare, at least in the illustrated editions of Virgil I know, where I have only seen a few representations of a mother and child. It would be very pleasing to me if a Renaissance artist depicted those sheep!. Best wishes, Peter Dennistoun Bryant Perth Australia P.S. I am very glad that David and the Mantovani are still extant: I enjoyed the discussion on Erichtho, and Leofranc Holford-Strevens' contribution in particular.Having mentioned him I can heartily recommend his eruditely entertaining The Oxford Book of Days which I have only just acquired. Quoting VIRGIL Digest [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:16:55 -0400 From: Emma T.K. Guest-Consales [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Comparetti's Virgilio nel Medioevo available online Thanks for posting the Comparetti link, David. Also, I would like to inform the list that I recently completed my dissertation in art history at Rutgers University: The Illustration of Virgil's Bucolics and its influence in Italian Renaissance Art. I would be happy to post the abstract to the list, if that would be appropriate. Best, Emma Guest === === === --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: Re: Illustrations of the Fourth Eclogue in Renaissance art?
Dear Peter, I have not found many illustrations for the fourth Bucolic. At the most some manuscripts have decorated initials, and there is one 15th c. ms in Spain with an illumination for B4. It shows V writing and a room with the child in a cradle and two more people. This ms is the only one that contains a separate illustration for each poem. It was painted in Naples in the 1470s. I haven't seen any colored sheep! I'm guessing the ones you are refering to are from after the 1520s and are printed books. Mind you I only looked at Italian mss and incunabula, so there may be examples from other countries I am unfamiliar with. Best, Emma -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:53 PM To: mantovano@virgil.org Subject: VIRGIL: Re: Illustrations of the Fourth Eclogue in Renaissance art? Emma, Congratulations on the completion of your dissertation! I'd very much like to know if you found many illustrations of the Fourth Eclogue in Renaissance art. Although some have found the coloured sheep silly, I have always liked them. Depictions of the Fourth Eclogue seem to me to be rare, at least in the illustrated editions of Virgil I know, where I have only seen a few representations of a mother and child. It would be very pleasing to me if a Renaissance artist depicted those sheep!. Best wishes, Peter Dennistoun Bryant Perth Australia P.S. I am very glad that David and the Mantovani are still extant: I enjoyed the discussion on Erichtho, and Leofranc Holford-Strevens' contribution in particular.Having mentioned him I can heartily recommend his eruditely entertaining The Oxford Book of Days which I have only just acquired. Quoting VIRGIL Digest [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 22:16:55 -0400 From: Emma T.K. Guest-Consales [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Comparetti's Virgilio nel Medioevo available online Thanks for posting the Comparetti link, David. Also, I would like to inform the list that I recently completed my dissertation in art history at Rutgers University: The Illustration of Virgil's Bucolics and its influence in Italian Renaissance Art. I would be happy to post the abstract to the list, if that would be appropriate. Best, Emma Guest === === === --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Virgil dissertation in art history - abstract
Title: Message Dear friends and colleagues, I tried to send my abstract as an attachment to the list, but it did not go through. I am including it as the text of this message. I completed my degree at Rutgers University with Prof. Sarah Blake McHam, and Prof. John van Sickle was one of my readers. Any comments are welcomed! Best, Emma ABSTRACT OF THE DISSERTATION The Illustration of Virgils Bucolics and its Influence in Italian Renaissance Art By EMMA T.K. GUEST Dissertation Director: Sarah Blake McHam The Illustration of Virgils Bucolics and its Influence in Italian Renaissance Art demonstrates that a specific Virgilian iconography developed in the Late Classical period and the Middle Ages for Virgils Bucolics. This iconography continued in manuscript and printed book illumination in the Renaissance, and played a major role in the development of pastoral subjects in independent paintings. While scholars of pastoral themes in art have often cited Virgil as a literary influence, the role of the illustration of Virgils bucolic poetry as a visual resource has not been examined. I first examine Virgils literary role in the Italian Renaissance, starting with his biography and his status in the Middle Ages, to then turn to his influence as literary model on Trecento Italian writers, followed by a survey of his place in the studia humanitatis and Renaissance education. The body of my dissertation is an examination of a representative selection of major illustrated Virgilian texts (approximately sixty manuscripts and printed books), dating from the Late Classical period, through the Middle Ages and into the Renaissance, to follow trends and developments in the iconography of specific Virgilian themes. I then address the rise of pastoral motifs in Venetian drawings, prints and paintings in the late Quattrocento and the early Cinquecento to demonstrate close visual ties between traditional motifs for the illustration of Virgil and new pastoral themes in the visual arts. My dissertation analyses in detail Virgils impact on visual culture in the Renaissance, and I demonstrate a new source for the rise of pastoral themes in Renaissance poetry and monumental painting.
Re: VIRGIL: Comparetti's Virgilio nel Medioevo available online
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Emma T.K. Guest-Consales [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Thanks for posting the Comparetti link, David. Also, I would like to inform the list that I recently completed my dissertation in art history at Rutgers University: The Illustration of Virgil's Bucolics and its influence in Italian Renaissance Art. I would be happy to post the abstract to the list, if that would be appropriate. Excellent topic. Please do. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: dissertation finished
Emma T.K. Guest-Consales wrote: Also, I would like to inform the list that I recently completed my dissertation in art history at Rutgers University: The Illustration of Virgil's Bucolics and its influence in Italian Renaissance Art. I would be happy to post the abstract to the list, if that would be appropriate. Congratulations, Emma -- send us an abstract, but give it its own subject heading. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Comparetti's Virgilio nel Medioevo available online
LH-S puts us on the right track, I think, with Erictho. I hope to get back to it later in the week. In the meantime, here is something I found this morning: an online text of D. Comparetti's Virgil in the Middle Ages (1872; rev. 1895). There are errors of fact and judgement, but as a survey it has yet to be replaced. (Cf. Epic and Romance by W. P. Ker.) The original was in Italian and so is this: http://www.classicitaliani.it/index178.htm --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: Comparetti's Virgilio nel Medioevo available online
Thanks for posting the Comparetti link, David. Also, I would like to inform the list that I recently completed my dissertation in art history at Rutgers University: The Illustration of Virgil's Bucolics and its influence in Italian Renaissance Art. I would be happy to post the abstract to the list, if that would be appropriate. Best, Emma Guest -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wilson-Okamura Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:17 PM To: Mantovano Subject: VIRGIL: Comparetti's Virgilio nel Medioevo available online LH-S puts us on the right track, I think, with Erictho. I hope to get back to it later in the week. In the meantime, here is something I found this morning: an online text of D. Comparetti's Virgil in the Middle Ages (1872; rev. 1895). There are errors of fact and judgement, but as a survey it has yet to be replaced. (Cf. Epic and Romance by W. P. Ker.) The original was in Italian and so is this: http://www.classicitaliani.it/index178.htm --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Virgil's knowledge of the underworld (Dante)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes I've been writing this month about the underworld. Here's something I'm curious about: when Dante and Virgil are going through hell, Dante asks his guide whether anyone from limbo ever visits the lower circles. That was 35 years ago. To my knowledge, no one has discovered a source for the episode, and I think B. d. I. was probably right: this was Dante's invention. But why does he drag Erichtho into it? The connection between Aen. 6 and Phars. 6 is obvious, interesting, and one that commentators in the Middle Ages had a lot to say about. But whom did Virgil draw forth from the circle of Judas, and did Erichtho animate Virgil's corpse to do it? The commentaries I own do not answer these questions, though Tommaso Di Salvo sees in the story an answer to the rationalizing reader's question, how Vergil knows his way around, even as Vergil provided an answer to the question how the Sibyl knew. Let us take it from there. Lucan's Erictho, in the same-numbered book as Aeneas' katabasis and all the more a kind of anti-Sibyl, could also substitute for Hecate (who as a heathen goddess was not available for Dante), since as Lucan tells us (6. 513-15): coetus audire silentum, nosse domos Stygias arcanaque Ditis operti non superi, non uita uetat. Neither the gods above nor her own way of life forbid her to hear the assemblies of the silent dead, to know the Stygian halls and the secrets of hidden Dis. However, since unlike Hecate she does not reside in the underworld, she operates by power of magical command, bringing a dead man back to life in order that he may prophesy to Sextus; she picks over the unburied corpses; wolves and carrion-birds while she chooses one to be her soothsayer: dum Thessala uatem eligit. Dante, I suggest, while no doubt being fully aware of the real meaning, creatively reinterpreted this as 'when [a standard medieval use of _dum_] she chooses the inspired poet', namely Vergil, who is made to fetch the deceased soul so that he shall know the way when Dante needs him to do so. The soul so fetched is no more in need of identification than the dead soldier whom Lucan's Erictho restores to life. I offer this to be improved upon. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Virgil's knowledge of the underworld (Dante)
I've been writing this month about the underworld. Here's something I'm
curious about: when Dante and Virgil are going through hell, Dante asks
his guide whether anyone from limbo ever visits the lower circles.
Here's Virgil's response in Singleton's translation:
It seldom happens that any of us makes the journey on which I go. It is
true that once before I was down here, conjured by that cruel Erichtho
who was wont to call back shades into their bodies. My flesh had been
but short while divested of me, when she made me enter within that wall
to draw forth a spirit from the circle of Judas. That is the lowest
place, and the darkest, and farthest from heaven that encircles all.
Well do I know the way... (Inf. 9.19-30)
And here is Singleton's commentary:
Erichtho [was] a Thessalian sorceress, who, according to Lucan (Phars.
VI, 507-830), was employed by Pompey's son Sextus to conjure up the
spirit of one of his dead soldiers on the eve of the battle of
Pharsalia, so that he could learn what was to be the outcome of the
campaign. The story Dante tells about Erichtho's sending Virgil into the
nethermost Hell is of unknown authority. It probably was suggested to
Dante by one of the numerous legends associated with Virgil in the
Middle Ages, when the Roman poet was universally regarded as a magician.
Boccaccio, for instance, in his comment on Inf. I, 71, calls Virgil
'solennissimo astrolago' ('a very great astrologer) and gives a list of
his wonderful performance. (On this aspect of Virgil's reputation in the
Middle Ages, see D. Comparetti, 1955, pp. 266-67; also see E. Moore,
1896, pp. 234-37.) Referring specifically to Dante's story about
Erichtho and Virgil, Boccaccio admits in his Comento that he cannot
'recall ever having read or heard just what this story was.' Benvenuto
was of the opinion that Dante invented the tale: 'Ista est simpliciter
fictio nova.' (This is simply a new fiction.') But the 'fiction' is, in
a sense, not so new: the Sibyl who guided Aeneas through the nether
regions declared that she had beenthere once before and had seen all
(Aen. VI, 562-65).
That was 35 years ago. To my knowledge, no one has discovered a source
for the episode, and I think B. d. I. was probably right: this was
Dante's invention. But why does he drag Erichtho into it? The connection
between Aen. 6 and Phars. 6 is obvious, interesting, and one that
commentators in the Middle Ages had a lot to say about. But whom did
Virgil draw forth from the circle of Judas, and did Erichtho animate
Virgil's corpse to do it?
---
Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org
English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c
East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet
---
---
To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.
Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message
unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You
can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Jupiter's prophecies
I recalled another book 'The Vigour of Prophecy' by Elisabeth Henry. Looking on the internet for that title, I found a useful review both of that and of the J.O'Hara book just mentioned, by Joseph Farrell. - Martin Hughes --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Jupiter's prophecies
Thank you for the references. A. Cussen el 31/5/05 14:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] en [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: I recalled another book 'The Vigour of Prophecy' by Elisabeth Henry. Looking on the internet for that title, I found a useful review both of that and of the J.O'Hara book just mentioned, by Joseph Farrell. - Martin Hughes --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Attitude to War
I suppose that the key line is 314 - 'arma amens capio,nec sat rationis in armis'. It's hard not to see this as V's basic judgement on the wars of his own time, at least the civil wars, at least in most aspects. But many further questions are raised. Can ratio in armis be restored by a suitable religious mission? If most aspects of the Civil Wars were wrong and irrational, was the final effort for the victory of Augustus necessary, rational, virtuous? Some of the more triumphant lines of Book VI suggest this quite powerfully. At other points - not to mention the Gates of Sleep - this Augustan suggestion might seem to be subverted. When Aeneas comes to the end of Book VIII, rejoicing in the image of the Roman mission but ignorant of its reality, is he behaving in a way so flatly contrary to respected philosophical teaching (Plato's) that we have to say 'nec sat rationis' still? - I suppose that all the lines beginning 'arma' deserve our special attention since they redi! rect us to the opening line of the whole poem. There is the further question of imperialist, rather than civil, war. Jupiter's encouraging 'end of history' speech in Book I has to be set against his terrifying appearance at the destruction of Troy in Book II and against his ambiguous, though for my money not quite cynical, efforts to control the warfare of VII-XII. - Martin Hughes --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Jupiter's prophecies
Antonio Cussen wrote: I remember reading a book or an article which argues that in the Aeneid Jupiter is often wrong in his prophecies or, if you prefer, in his announcements about the future. If anybody recalls the name of this article or book, please let me know. Perhaps you are thinking of our own James J. O'Hara's Death and the Optimistic Prophecy in Vergil's Aeneid (Princeton, 1990). --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Attitude to War
What can you tell from Aeneid Two of Virgil's attitude to war? --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Aeneas' Character
Do you agree that Aeneas is "a brave but bewildered man, suffering often through his own fault"? I think this is a fairly accurate assessment of him and is seen especially in the section on Creusa and his desperate search for her after she has disappeared. If he had not had told her to follow from behind, the chances are she would not have gone missing. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: The Importance of Creusa
Apart from telling Aeneas his destiny in the form of a ghost (an event that, together with her death, is crucial to move the story along), is Creusa an important character? --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: The Importance of Creusa
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Zara Hayat [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes Apart from telling Aeneas his destiny in the form of a ghost (an event that, together with her death, is crucial to move the story along), is Creusa an important character? She is also important as the mother of Iulus/Ascanius, who remembers her (9. 297); but if you mean is her individual character important, beyond that of being a loving wife who releases her husband from his grief, and a loving daughter-in-law who helps persuade Anchises to leave Troy, the answer appears to be no. Neither is Lavinia of much importance as an individual human being, rather than a fulfilleress of function (gender-suffix deliberate, as indicating a role women are liable to be assigned); the one was, and the other will be, a Good Wife. Contrast Dido. Leofranc Holford-Strevens --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: fwd: ein Weihnachtsgruß
Domini diem natalem et annum MMV bonum, faustum, laetum, propitium opto, ominor, auspicor.Angiolina Lanza - Original Message - From: Hans Zimmermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mantovano@virgil.org Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 12:55 AM Subject: VIRGIL: fwd: ein Weihnachtsgruß Weihnachten 2004 Liebe Freunde! Nur eine knappe Generation vor Jesu Geburt, also zwei Generationen vor Christi Passion und Auferstehung, der eigentlichen Neugeburt des Weltenkeims (Marius Victorinus), schrieb Vergil seine zehn Hirtenlieder, darunter vor allem das vierte, die berühmte vierte Ekloge über die Geburt eines neuen Aiôn (und zugleich spiegelbildliche Entsprechung der sechsten Ekloge, wo der weise Silen die Weltschöpfung und das perpetuum carmen der von da an abrollenden Metamorphosenreihe der Weltereignisse eine halbe Generation vor Ovid vorweg-besingt). Ein Aiôn (lateinisch aevum, deutsch meistens mit Ewigkeit übersetzt) ist der Kreisschluß der Zeit, die in sich bereits durch eine Jahreszeit-analoge Periodik von vier Weltaltern und auch durch die Weltmonate des platonischen großen Jahres gegliedert ist. Der Aiôn selbst erscheint in dieser vierten Ekloge imaginativ-prophetisch als messianisches Kind, mit dessen Geburt der ewige Frühling des goldenen Zeitalters in die Zeit einbricht bzw. die Zeit selbst durch den Übergang vom eisernen Ende in einen neuen goldenen Anfang zu einem Ewigkeits-Kreis, d.h. eben zu einem Aion, zusammenschließt; in der Tat bilden das silberne, eherne und eiserne Zeitalter nur eine Art pädagogischer Zwischenphase mit Aufgaben für heranwachsende Helden innerhalb dieses in sich ewigen Frühlings, der sich mit der Tilgung der alten Erbschuld auch gleich wieder einstellt. Der historisch-konkrete Anlaß, der Säugling, zu dessen Geburt Vergil diese Hymne als Gelegenheitslied gesungen haben mag, tritt zurück gegenüber der darin veranschaulichten Geburt des neuen Aiôn, und so bewegt sich der Dichter zwischen der sibyllinischen Apokalyptik (Cumaei carminis) einerseits und der erschüttert-erschütternden Bewegung des Weltalls selbst (nutantem mundum) andererseits auf den kosmischen Bahnen der Welt-Zeit und des sterngordneten Raumes. Gerade das Hirten-Kolorit und der weihnachtliche Messianismus der Blumen- und Wiege-Idyllik um den Säugling verkleinert diese kosmischen Bezüge keineswegs, sondern schließt sie (in unserer rückblickenden Perspektive) vielmehr mit anderen, nicht minder berühmten messianischen Prophetien zusammen, besonders den Immanuel-Lieder Jesajas und ihren paradiesischen Parallelen zu Vergils goldenem Weltalter. Diese kosmologische Seite des Liedes, das Kind als personifizierte Gesamtweltzeit, findet sich noch in der Grundstruktur der trinitarischen Sohnesgeburt, in der alle Schöpfung enthalten ist und ihren Keimgrund findet; so beispielhaft bei Marius Victorinus: quod multa vel cuncta sunt hoc unum est quod genuit filius cunctis qui ontos semen est tu vero virtus seminis in quo atque ex quo gignuntur cuncta virtus quae fundit dei rursusque in semen redeunt genita quaeque ex semine operatur Das Viele, das Ganze ist nur dies Eine, hervorgebracht von dem Sohn der allen Wesen der Same des Seins; doch du bist die keimende Kraft in diesem und aus ihm wird alles erzeugt was der göttlichen Keimkraft entströmt und in diesen Samen kehrt alles Gezeugte und aus ihm Erzeugte zurück Die Idee der Weltalter stammt aus Indien und wanderte über Persien nach Westen, wo sie in Hesiods Werke und Tage einwurzelt. Die Kreisschlüssigkeit der Zeit, gleichfalls Grundidee im persischen Zarathustrismus wie eben die darauf beruhende Weltalterfolge, ist die allgemeinste Zeitvorstellung in der Antike, vgl. auch die Lehren des Anchises im Unterweltbuch der Aeneis; selbst Augustinus, dem man trotz seiner neuplatonischen Grundlagen (Marius Victorinus ist sein trinitätstheoretischer Vorläufer) gern eine lineare Zeit-Strecke mit entschiedenem Schöpfungsanfang und entscheidendem Weltgerichts-Ende unterstellt, kann die vielen Bibelstellen nicht begradigen, die von der Wiederbringung der Geschöpfe sprechen, wo letzten Endes Gott wieder Alles in Allem sein soll, oder Psalm 103 (104) wo es heißt: 29. Du birgst dein Antlitz: sie sind verwirrt; du ziehst ihren Odem ein: sie verscheiden und zu ihrem Staub kehren sie zurück; 30. du entsendest deinen Odem: sie sind geschaffen und du erneuerst das Antlitz des Ackers. Den konzentriertesten Beleg für die menschengestaltige Kindlichkeit des Aiôn, gewissermaßen den eigentlichen Liedkeim dieser Ekloge, finden wir allerdings unter den Fragmenten Heraklits (DK 22 B 52): AIÔN Der ZEITENKREIS PAIS esti paizôn ein KIND ist er, kindlich spielend, pesseuôn Brettspielsteine setzend; PAIDOS hê basilêiê einem KIND gehört die Königsherrschaft! Nun also Publius Vergilius Maro, die vierte Ekloge aus den Bucolica (den Hirtenliedern) über die Geburt
Re: VIRGIL: conceptions of time (was ein Weihnachtsgruß)
Hans Zimmermann brings up something that has often troubled me. Do the Augustan poets imagine time as linear or cyclical? I tell my students that time in the Aeneid is a spiral, in which situations (a) repeat themselves (b) on a scale of increasing magnitude. E.g., Hercules vs. Cacus -- Aeneas vs. Turnus -- Octavian vs. Mark Antony. In the first iteration, the stakes are small: just some cows. In the last iteration, the stakes are high: nothing less than lordship of the known world. If this is right, then time has structure (the circle) but also progress (the line). And mostly I am content to leave it at that. What troubles me are the ruined cities, founded by Saturn and Janus, that Evander points out to Aeneas when they are wandering through the area that will become downtown Rome. What is the purpose of these ruined cities (which are mentioned only briefly)? Are they a prophecy of what Rome will come to in the end? In which case there is not going to be much progress after all... I don't think you have to read it that way: for me (and perhaps for Virgil also) ruins are romantic as well as melancholy, because they connect us with the past. Insofar as they are ruins, they are monitory. Where is the horse and rider? / Where is the horn that was blowing? And so on. But ruins are also remnants. And they invite continuation, in a way that the finished monument, intact and imposing, does not. There is a similar puzzle at the end of Met. XV: will the Golden Age of Augustus really last forever, or will it give way to the Changefulness that Pythagoras has just finished saying (at the beginning of Met. XV) is the abiding principle of the universe? --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Re: VIRGIL: conceptions of time (was ein Weihnachtsgruß)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Wilson-Okamura david@virgil.org writes What is the purpose of these ruined cities (which are mentioned only briefly)? Are they a prophecy of what Rome will come to in the end? In which case there is not going to be much progress after all... There was a prophecy that Rome would one day perish; and Scipio the younger had thought on those lines, or so Polybius tells us. I don't think you have to read it that way: for me (and perhaps for Virgil also) ruins are romantic as well as melancholy, because they connect us with the past. Insofar as they are ruins, they are monitory. Where is the horse and rider? / Where is the horn that was blowing? And so on. But ruins are also remnants. And they invite continuation, in a way that the finished monument, intact and imposing, does not. There is a similar puzzle at the end of Met. XV: will the Golden Age of Augustus really last forever, or will it give way to the Changefulness that Pythagoras has just finished saying (at the beginning of Met. XV) is the abiding principle of the universe? All part of the Pythagoras problem in that book: when Ovid introduces his speech with the words docta quidem soluit, sed non et credita, uerbis are we meant to reflect on human blindness in the face of wisdom, or to write the philosopher off as a silly old fool? As with Janus' denunciation of rampant greed in book 1 of the Fasti, do we really want to live the abstemious and impoverished life of virtue--do you, hypocrite lecteur, mon semblable, mon frère? Leofranc Holford-Strevens --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org david@virgil.org English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: latin translations of Homer
I may have inadvertently blocked Mantovano from my inbox. Please tell me how to correct this. I sent a question about Latin translations of Homer. Would someone tell me how to find any such works in print? ThanksDavid --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: latin translations of Homer
I sent a question about Latin translations of Homer. Would someone tell me how to find any such works in print? I don't know of any such works currently in print (if by that you mean new books available in a bookshop or in a publishing company's warehouse), but various 18th and 19th century editions of Homer's individual or collected works in Greek and Latin are available on the secondhand market or held by academic libraries. Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: latin translations of Homer
Ilias Latina, a partial translation by Baebius Italicus during the reign of Nero, is available at the following: http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/ilias.html Regards, David Jensen - Original Message - From: david connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 5:32 PM Subject: VIRGIL: latin translations of Homer I sent a question about Latin translations of Homer. Would someone tell me how to find any such works in print? --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: archive of old messages now online
ANNOUNCEMENT Eight years ago, when this mailing list was just getting started, we discussed whether the contents should go in a public archive. The consensus was yes, and we did in fact begin archiving our discussions. Unfortunately, the site that was hosting the archive closed. About a year ago, I found a new host for the archive, and began directing new messages to it. This was Jeff Breidenbach's Mail-Archive.com, which is a free archiving service for mailing lists like this one. Until yesterday, the archive went back to May 2003, which is when we started using the service. This week, however, Mr. Breidenbach successfully imported all of the previous correspondence from this group, going back to 1996 when we started. This was a courtesy on his part, not an obligation, and I am grateful to him for it. The address for the new, very nearly complete archive is http://www.mail-archive.com/mantovano%40virgil.org/ LIMITATIONS 1. When we discussed archiving in 1996, there were two people who objected to it. Since then, the archiving of all mailing lists, academic and otherwise, has become a standard practice. Where possible, however, I did remove any messages from those two senders. (It was not possible to do this for messages posted after May 2003.) If, in the future, you do not want your contributions to this mailing list archived, include the header X-No-Archive: yes in your message. But I would urge you perhaps NOT to do this. There is one more irregularity in the archive, which Mr. Breidenbach is hoping to fix in the future. For reasons which are not very interesting to explain, about two dozen of the old messages got sidetracked. For the time being they are here: http://www.mail-archive.com/mantovano%40joyfulheart.com/ http://www.mail-archive.com/mantovano%40wilsoninet.com/ It is to be hoped that these stragglers will one day be reunited with the main body of messages. For the present, though, they are at least online and available for browsing and searching. --- Dr. David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] English Department Virgil reception, discussion, documents, c East Carolina UniversitySparsa et neglecta coegi. -- Claude Fauchet --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Mantovano
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phillip Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes I am not familiar with the name Mantovano as it relates to Virgil. Can you tell me the connection? Tennyson so addressed Vergil, using the modern Italian form of the ethnic: I salute thee, Mantovano, I that loved thee since my day began, Wielder of the stateliest measure ever moulded by the lips of man. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Mantovano
Colleagues, There are no doubt several possibilities to explain *Mantovano*. He was born in Mantua, so the epithet is appropriate. But the allusion that seems to me most attractive is in the final stanza of Tennyson's *To Virgil* -- I salute thee, Mantovano, I that loved thee since my day began, Wielder of the stateliest measure ever molded by the lips of man. While hardly up to his *Ulysses,* Tennyson's poem is worth knowing, especially by Vergilians. Mario Phillip Harris wrote: I am not familiar with the name Mantovano as it relates to Virgil. Can you tell me the connection? Thank you, Phillip Harris -- Mario A. Di Cesare Distinguished Professor (emeritus), SUNY Founder Director, Medieval Renaissance Texts Studies (MRTS) Pegasus Paperbooks (1978-1996) Director, Pegasus Press (1996-1998; 2002-2004) Member, College for Seniors, University of North Carolina Center for Creative Retirement at UNC Asheville 101 Booter Road Fairview, NC 28730-8727 Phone: 828-628-3883 --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Mantovano
I am not familiar with the name Mantovano as it relates to Virgil. Can you tell me the connection? Matovano is the Italian for Mantuan. The allusion is to the tenth and last stanza of Tennyson's poem To Virgil, written at the request of the Mantuans for the nineteenth centenary of the poet's death, which goes: I salute thee, Mantovano, I that loved thee since my day began, Wielder of the stateliest measure ever moulded by the lips of man. The inscription which was said to have been placed on Virgil's tomb declared that he was born in Mantua (Mantua me genuit), and it's clear from various passages in his works that he lived in or near Mantua and knew the countryside round about. Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Mantovano
Sorry, I mistranscribed the title of Tennyson's poem. It should be: TO VIRGIL WRITTEN AT THE REQUEST OF THE MANTUANS FOR THE NINETEENTH CENTENARY OF VIRGIL'S DEATH (Imagine the lines centred.) Simon Cauchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: reading for imagery
At 08:19 AM 8/13/01 -0500, David Wilson-Okamura wrote: Now the reason that I am mentioning this to the Virgil list is that, as Kaske rightly points out, the rhetorical handbooks of the period do _not_ analyze images in this manner; imagery was not, and never had been, a term in classical rhetoric. Commentaries on classical texts may be a different sort of animal. Servius, for instance, cross-references the text of Virgil repeatedly. But does he cross-reference imagery? I haven't found any convincing examples yet, though I have Thomas's 1880 essay on Servius on order from the library and I'm hoping to find something on the subject there. In the meantime, what think ye? Do we have any evidence that Virgil's earliest readers were interested in his imagery, or was that whole method of reading something that came in with Christianity? Don't know if anyone is following this, but here's an update in any case. When I got to the library this morning, Emile Thomas, Scoliastes de Virgile: Essai sur Servius et son commentatire sur Virgile (Paris, 1880) was waiting for me. This is what he says under the heading of Lacunes de l'interpretation litteraire dans les commentaires anciens sur Virgile. (I apologize in advance for omitting accents, but accents have a way of choking some email clients.) ...Servius a defendu les droits de la raison et du bon sens, et il merite qu'on s'en souivenne lorsqu'on reconnait chez lui les defauts de son temps. Mais quoi que nous essayons pour faire la difference des ecoles anciennes et des notres, de notre gout et celui de l'antiquite, nous avons grand'peine a comprendre les enormes lacunes de cette interpretation litteraire. Comment! sur un poete d'un sentiment a la fois si vif et si doux, si rapide et si profond, pas une remarque de sentiment? Sur un style si riche d'images et de tours poetiques, rien ou presque rien, que des remarques de grammaire?... A force de se borner a l'explication des mots, a l'observation des regles (En., VI, 660), ils ne voient riens autre chose... Virgile est pour eux tout entier dans un mot, une expression, un vers. Par moments, on dirait meme qu'en le lisant et en l'expliquant, ils refusent de l'entendre. (p. 245-46) Thomas goes on to qualify this a bit, and there _are_ synoptic discussions of the text in Servius' book introductions. But the From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat Sep 01 09:24:53 2001 X-Mozilla-Status: X-Mozilla-Status2: From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Aug 31 21:59:36 2001 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsonwork.com (8.11.6) id f813tjs13991; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 21:55:45 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: wilsonwork.com: wilsonwk set sender to [EMAIL PROTECTED] using -f From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:55:32 EDT Subject: VIRGIL: question To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 138 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: f3e2cdafa0b26352444af52fa07154e8 In Book I of Aeneid there is a reference to people of the sky (one translation) in relation to destruction of Carthage. I don't have a Latin text. How does that phrase read in Latin? Joan Lepley --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Horace murdered too?
why we bother ourself with Horace? let us talk about Virgil! _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.com/ ---BeginMessage--- LOved the French From: David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Horace murdered too? Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:23:55 -0400 At 02:01 PM 10/18/2004 -0400, you wrote: mehercle My French is too old and flimsy to avail myself of the Horace site.any possibility of getting a "synopsis?" Try contacting Maleuvre privately; his email address [EMAIL PROTECTED] He is very eager to discuss these matters, and will probably walk you through the argument if you ask him to. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org[EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Rock, jazz, country, soul & more. Find the music you love on MSN Music! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub ---End Message---
