Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Patrick Roper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes The name ?EL-IS-SA? comes from Phoenician, it means ?Uterus (SA) of Sun (EL) and Moon (IS)?. The name Elissa is also attested in a Greek legend of Timeus and Iustinus in which is narrated the story of Carthaginian queen Theiosso (Elissa in Phoenician). If 'Elissa' was a Phoenician word, what sort of a word was 'Dido'? Was it also Phoenician, or Carthaginian (if that was different), or Latin, or Greek? Said by Timaeus to be 'Libyan'. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
At 06:30 PM 3/23/2004 +, Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote: >It is not in the least absurd to suggest that Vergil avoided inflected >forms he did not like; why else, in the fourth Georgic, does he never >speak of bees in the genitive plural, than because neither apium nor >apum sounded right to him? It is not a matter of grammatical difficulty, >rather elegance of taste. Cf. "Cuium pecus" for "Cuius pecus" in Ecl. 3.1: according to Servius, Virgil used the archaic form for two reasons: because the speaker is a rustic, and because he wanted to avoid repetition. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, &c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Stefano Vitrano <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes I think that Aeneas uses the name ?Elissa? in order to refer to Dido in the most formal way. All the monologue, in fact, is full of formal and rhetorical words and sentences (?Pro re pauca loquatur? v.337, and many others examples). The way Aeneas speaks is clearly different from Dido?s one in her precedent monologue, he seems to be a mere ?hospes? of the queen and not her real lover. Therefore I don?t think Virgil uses this word because of grammatical problems (It?s absurde!). It is not in the least absurd to suggest that Vergil avoided inflected forms he did not like; why else, in the fourth Georgic, does he never speak of bees in the genitive plural, than because neither apium nor apum sounded right to him? It is not a matter of grammatical difficulty, rather elegance of taste. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
"EL" in Dido's name "Elissa" isn't the "sun" - it is "god", see Plautus,
Poenulus 5,1 ("et ELonim w-ELonot..." - Akkusativ "the gods and godesses ...");
maybe "eli" - "my god" as commonly in Hebrew names -
- but the rest? it sounds similar to the (male) prophet's name "El-isha" ("God
helps"), but who can find out, if an Ayin or another "nongreek" or "nonroman"
Konsonant is hidden in that name; and - god help us! - the "s"!! - is it zayin,
or ssamekh, or tsade, or ssin or shin? and follows an aleph, or an ayin, or a
he, or nothing after that "a" at the end?
What funny names for "uterus" and "moon" shall those short words be? Three
radicals are the norm for each word in Semitic languages (EL is a short form of
ELH, plural ELoHîm, Plautus' Phoenician has "Elonîm"), filled up with
Vocals, added by prefixes and suffixes. "uterus" might be something like
"mishbar"; "sun" is "shamash" or something similar in all semitic languages.
grusz, hansz
Stefano Vitrano schrieb:
> The name ?EL-IS-SA? comes from Phoenician, it means ?Uterus (SA) of Sun
> (EL) and Moon (IS)?.
> The name Elissa is also attested in a Greek legend of Timeus and Iustinus
> in which is narrated the story of Carthaginian queen Theiosso (Elissa in
> Phoenician).
http://marvin.sn.schule.de/~latein/vergil.htm
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RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
> The name ?EL-IS-SA? comes from Phoenician, it means ?Uterus (SA) of Sun > (EL) and Moon (IS)?. > The name Elissa is also attested in a Greek legend of Timeus and Iustinus > in which is narrated the story of Carthaginian queen Theiosso (Elissa in > Phoenician). If 'Elissa' was a Phoenician word, what sort of a word was 'Dido'? Was it also Phoenician, or Carthaginian (if that was different), or Latin, or Greek? Patrick Roper --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
I think that Aeneas uses the name ?Elissa? in order to refer to Dido in the most formal way. All the monologue, in fact, is full of formal and rhetorical words and sentences (?Pro re pauca loquatur? v.337, and many others examples). The way Aeneas speaks is clearly different from Dido?s one in her precedent monologue, he seems to be a mere ?hospes? of the queen and not her real lover. Therefore I don?t think Virgil uses this word because of grammatical problems (It?s absurde!). The name ?EL-IS-SA? comes from Phoenician, it means ?Uterus (SA) of Sun (EL) and Moon (IS)?. The name Elissa is also attested in a Greek legend of Timeus and Iustinus in which is narrated the story of Carthaginian queen Theiosso (Elissa in Phoenician). >-- Messaggio originale -- >Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 23:42:41 + >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Denise Davis-Henry > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>Sorry this is so off the topic but I was wondering about the significance >>of the name Elissa, versus Dido. My AP students were intrigued that >>Aeneas used Elissa in referring to the queen at line 335 of Bk IV. We >>don't think that this name was applied to her before this line and >>therefore, we are wondering if there is any significance that to its use >at >>this particular juncture? > >Since no-one else has suggested anything, let me, belatedly, answer. > >The only form of _Dido_ that Vergil uses is _Dido_. He does not use the >Latin genitive _Didonis_, which would have sounded too archaic for his >age, nor does he use the Greek genitive _Didus_, which would have been >too precious for a Roman epic. Therefore he needed another name; and >what better choice, if Aeneas is trying to mollify the angry queen, than > >her own name for herself? According to the late Hellenistic treatise on >women warriors, _Gunaikes en polemikois sunetai kai andreiai_, recently >edited by Deborah Gera (_The Anonymous_ Tractatus de Mulieribus, Leiden: > >Brill, 1997), Timaeus had said it was her Phoenician name; and that is >the name she will apply to herself in line 610. So, 'I shall be very >happy [nec pigebit = et magnopere iuvabit] to remember "Elissa".' Of >course it doesn't work, since nothing would have soothed her; but at >least he tried (or he stopped at nothing, if you prefer). > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens >-- >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens >67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone >Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? >OX2 6EJ > >tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 >email: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >--- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Stefano Vitrano C.E.I. school, Palermo, Italy [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Denise Davis-Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes Sorry this is so off the topic but I was wondering about the significance of the name Elissa, versus Dido. My AP students were intrigued that Aeneas used Elissa in referring to the queen at line 335 of Bk IV. We don't think that this name was applied to her before this line and therefore, we are wondering if there is any significance that to its use at this particular juncture? Since no-one else has suggested anything, let me, belatedly, answer. The only form of _Dido_ that Vergil uses is _Dido_. He does not use the Latin genitive _Didonis_, which would have sounded too archaic for his age, nor does he use the Greek genitive _Didus_, which would have been too precious for a Roman epic. Therefore he needed another name; and what better choice, if Aeneas is trying to mollify the angry queen, than her own name for herself? According to the late Hellenistic treatise on women warriors, _Gunaikes en polemikois sunetai kai andreiai_, recently edited by Deborah Gera (_The Anonymous_ Tractatus de Mulieribus, Leiden: Brill, 1997), Timaeus had said it was her Phoenician name; and that is the name she will apply to herself in line 610. So, 'I shall be very happy [nec pigebit = et magnopere iuvabit] to remember "Elissa".' Of course it doesn't work, since nothing would have soothed her; but at least he tried (or he stopped at nothing, if you prefer). Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Sorry this is so off the topic but I was wondering about the significance of the name Elissa, versus Dido. My AP students were intrigued that Aeneas used Elissa in referring to the queen at line 335 of Bk IV. We don't think that this name was applied to her before this line and therefore, we are wondering if there is any significance that to its use at this particular juncture? - Original Message - From: Oliver Metzger To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 12:01 AM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation David:I was one of those history-challenged high school, and then college, Virgilstudents and I vote for the all-at-once. After college, I read Syme's RomanRevolution and Scullard's From the Gracchi to Nero, and they opened up wholenew dimensions in the text of the Aeneid for me. Of course, Syme isn'tsomething you can speed through as a quick read, though. Even a 25-pagedown-and-dirty summary of the history, however, would add greatly to therichness of the experience. In Latin the poetry can hypnotize withoutassistance; a translation may need a background of political tensions tocreate the same kind of excitement as the Odyssey creates. Once oneunderstands the political environment, the Aeneid can be as interesting forwhat it does not say as for what it does say: an exercise in subtlety andobliqueness. Subtlety is not the first thing that comes to my mind when Ithink of the Odyssey; they are useful counterpoints in this regard. - Oliver Metzger- Original Message -From: "David Wilson-Okamura" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:12 AMSubject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation> On Virgil and Tolkien: what can be said has now been said. Back, then, to> the original question, of how to teach the Aeneid in translation. Do you> give the history all at once, before starting the poem, or do you let it> dribble out as needed? I confess to being a dribbler, but as I have> mentioned earlier, I don't think I have been teaching the poem very> effectively.>>> ---> David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]> East Carolina University Virgil reception, discussion, documents, &c> ---> ---> To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.> Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message> "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You> can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub---To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). Youcan also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
David: I was one of those history-challenged high school, and then college, Virgil students and I vote for the all-at-once. After college, I read Syme's Roman Revolution and Scullard's From the Gracchi to Nero, and they opened up whole new dimensions in the text of the Aeneid for me. Of course, Syme isn't something you can speed through as a quick read, though. Even a 25-page down-and-dirty summary of the history, however, would add greatly to the richness of the experience. In Latin the poetry can hypnotize without assistance; a translation may need a background of political tensions to create the same kind of excitement as the Odyssey creates. Once one understands the political environment, the Aeneid can be as interesting for what it does not say as for what it does say: an exercise in subtlety and obliqueness. Subtlety is not the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of the Odyssey; they are useful counterpoints in this regard. - Oliver Metzger - Original Message - From: "David Wilson-Okamura" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:12 AM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation > On Virgil and Tolkien: what can be said has now been said. Back, then, to > the original question, of how to teach the Aeneid in translation. Do you > give the history all at once, before starting the poem, or do you let it > dribble out as needed? I confess to being a dribbler, but as I have > mentioned earlier, I don't think I have been teaching the poem very > effectively. > > > --- > David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] > East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, &c > --- > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
To David Wilson-Okamura: The lines you have cited here are not part of the 1900 lines requred for the AP Latin exam so I have not read and reread them as I have so many other parts of the Aeneid. I find your comment on these lines very helpful and inciteful. David Wilson-Okamura To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 10:52 AM Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation At 10:28 PM 1/18/2004 -, Francis Browne wrote: >>>>I am sure that my own experience is that of many. It is delight in poetryand music that has often led me to learn about the historical backgroundrather than historical study leading to enjoyment of a work of art. Delightin the poetry of Dante leads to exploration of Italian history and medievalphilosophy ( and incidentally a different approach to the narrative skillsof Virgil, Ovid, Lucan and Statius). Delight in Bach leads to a study ofthe Germany of his time and the Lutheran tradition. It is of course aquestion of emphasis . Background knowledge gained leads to deeperappreciation, but delight in the poetry remains primary and the inspirationfor further study. <<<<You are right. As a teacher, I am usually most excited about the thingsthat I am learning about the poem _right now_. Thus, it is hard for me totalk about the fall of Troy (in bk. 2) without saying something about thedecline of the Republic, which comes about, in Virgil's vision, not by thedeeds of one man, but by competition and by dint of little wounds inflictedover time:ac ueluti summis antiquam in montibus ornumcum ferro accisam crebrisque bipennibus instanteruere agricolae _certatim_, illa usque minaturet tremefacta comam concusso uertice nutat,_uulneribus donec paulatim euicta_ supremumcongemuit traxitque iugis auulsa ruinam. (Aen. 2.626ff.)This, I am tempted to say, is what bk. 2 is really about. But when I waseighteen, I didn't know or see any of this. What moved me then were thefalling star and the omen of fire and, at the end of the book, going upinto the mountains. To me, then, Virgil was the great romantic poet. And Iam not at all confident that, in moving from a romantic appreciation to ahistorical appreciation, I am somehow closer to the poet's heart. Knowingsome of the history, I think I see more of the heart. But the historical"chamber" of that heart is not, so far as I can tell, more real than theromantic one. For us, it is more work to discern the historical chamber,and we are tempted, because it has cost us so much effort, to infer thatwhat is secret (from us) was also sacred (for Virgil). This may be anillusion.---David Wilson-Okamura http://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED]East Carolina University Virgil reception, discussion, documents, &c--To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). Youcan also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
At 10:28 PM 1/18/2004 -, Francis Browne wrote: I am sure that my own experience is that of many. It is delight in poetry and music that has often led me to learn about the historical background rather than historical study leading to enjoyment of a work of art. Delight in the poetry of Dante leads to exploration of Italian history and medieval philosophy ( and incidentally a different approach to the narrative skills of Virgil, Ovid, Lucan and Statius). Delight in Bach leads to a study of the Germany of his time and the Lutheran tradition. It is of course a question of emphasis . Background knowledge gained leads to deeper appreciation, but delight in the poetry remains primary and the inspiration for further study. You are right. As a teacher, I am usually most excited about the things that I am learning about the poem _right now_. Thus, it is hard for me to talk about the fall of Troy (in bk. 2) without saying something about the decline of the Republic, which comes about, in Virgil's vision, not by the deeds of one man, but by competition and by dint of little wounds inflicted over time: ac ueluti summis antiquam in montibus ornum cum ferro accisam crebrisque bipennibus instant eruere agricolae _certatim_, illa usque minatur et tremefacta comam concusso uertice nutat, _uulneribus donec paulatim euicta_ supremum congemuit traxitque iugis auulsa ruinam. (Aen. 2.626ff.) This, I am tempted to say, is what bk. 2 is really about. But when I was eighteen, I didn't know or see any of this. What moved me then were the falling star and the omen of fire and, at the end of the book, going up into the mountains. To me, then, Virgil was the great romantic poet. And I am not at all confident that, in moving from a romantic appreciation to a historical appreciation, I am somehow closer to the poet's heart. Knowing some of the history, I think I see more of the heart. But the historical "chamber" of that heart is not, so far as I can tell, more real than the romantic one. For us, it is more work to discern the historical chamber, and we are tempted, because it has cost us so much effort, to infer that what is secret (from us) was also sacred (for Virgil). This may be an illusion. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, &c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
As a new member of this list I have followed this discussion from the beginning with interest. David Wilson-Okamura raised the problem : “ that my students don't know the first thing about Roman history. They've heard of Julius Caesar, and maybe -- but maybe -- they've heard of Augustus. Basic terms like "Republic" and "Empire" have no meaning to them. Granted, most of these students shouldn't be in college in the first place. Prior to coming to North Carolina, I had a lot of students who were lazy, but in general they were curious. Where I teach now, a lot of them aren't even curious.”. Leofranc Holford-Strevens commented that “Vergil didn't leave out the history, or the politics, even if people can't agree what to make of them, or even whether they're *meant* to agree. It is surely a legitimate question to ask whether Aeneas' abandonment of Dido, at divine behest, for his higher destiny, is to be read not merely as a fusion of the Calypso and Circe episodes (or even in relation to Naevius, if we think we know enough about him to debate Horsfall's account of the matter), but as a pointed comment on Antony's adherence to the national enemy Cleopatra; at least that [is] how I reacted to it at school.” Such an informed and perceptive comment assumes both the historical knowledge that such students lack and the literary sophistication to apply this knowledge to a reading of the poem , and so makes the problem more acute : what magic wand can transform the lazy, incurious students, the functionally and culturally illiterate, into readers who can appreciate such an insight ? Teaching Virgil today may often seem a matter of margaritas ante porcos, but I am confident that in each generation Virgil will find his readers.’Tale tuum carmen nobis, divine poeta, quale’may be completed variously , but Virgil’s poetry will always evoke the passionate admiration of some readers. This list, which I was delighted to discover, bears witness to Virgil’s continuing and varied appeal. Among the seemingly unresponsive students some surely will gain an appreciation of Virgil’s achievement by reading the Aeneid in translation, and there will always be a few who are then inspired to learn Latin properly . But will teaching about the historical background of the poem help to achieve such goals? I am sure that my own experience is that of many. It is delight in poetry and music that has often led me to learn about the historical background rather than historical study leading to enjoyment of a work of art. Delight in the poetry of Dante leads to exploration of Italian history and medieval philosophy ( and incidentally a different approach to the narrative skills of Virgil, Ovid, Lucan and Statius). Delight in Bach leads to a study of the Germany of his time and the Lutheran tradition. It is of course a question of emphasis . Background knowledge gained leads to deeper appreciation , but delight in the poetry remains primary and the inspiration for further study. But what delight is possible for those reading the Aeneid in translation ? A number of contributors have suggested that the Aeneid in translation lacks the narrative power of other texts that students may read. Alas, I fear that in some ways this is true. I enjoyed the Iliad and the Odyssey long before I learned Greek, but it was only through reading the Aeneid in Latin that I come to appreciate Virgil’s poetry. The complexity and richness of Virgil’s style take less kindly to translation than the formulaic language of the Greek epics. And yet the Aeneid contains some marvelous narrative: Books 2, 4 and 6 – those which Virgil himself read to Augustus and his circle – can surely be moving as stories at the simplest level read in translation, while still repaying the closest linguistic study. Other episodes – the boat race, Nisus and Euryalus, the deaths of Pallas and Turnus - also come to mind. How much historical background should be provided for students and whether it should be given all at once or , in David’s phrase, ‘dribbled’ are not easy questions to answer. The course of study outlined by Vicenzo Crupi is impressive and worthwhile, but I wonder how often such a thorough approach is possible in the circumstances in which Virgil is often taught today. In many ways I find myself more inclined to follow Samuel Johnson’s advice for reading Shakespeare ( with the necessary changes for Virgil and epic) : “Let him who is unacquainted with the powers of Shakespeare(Virgil), and who desires to feel the highest pleasure that the drama (epic) can give, read every play (book) from the first scene to the last, with utter negligence of all his commentators. When his fancy is once on the wing, let it not stoop at correction or explanation. When his attention is strongly engaged, let it disdain alike to turn aside to the name of Theobald and Pope (Norden, Austin?). Let him read on through brightness and obscurity, through in
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Two points: 1. I agree that the Aeneid in translation generally fails to "grab" students as strongly as the Iliad and the Odyssey in translation do (I began studying Greek because I liked the Iliad and the Odyssey in English translation so much, but it took the Latin text of the Aeneid for me to get interested in the Aeneid), but even so I've had fairly good success with Robert Fitzgerald's translation of the Aeneid, and that's the one I would recommend to teachers. 2. Tolkien certainly was not ignorant of the Greek and Latin languages, and he knew Classical literature. But they weren't his priorities. As a medievalist and a philologist of Germanic languages, he somewhat resented the larger amount of attention that Classical literature and languages generally received, and he had a vested interest in overturning the then-accepted hierarchy that placed Classical literature at the top. So as a rhetorical strategy Tolkien tended to disavow any interest in Greek and Roman epic, and he liked to deny that they had any influence on _The Lord of the Rings_. This has always exasperated me a bit, since I can't help thinking of the Iliad every time I read the chapters on the Siege of Minas Tirith in _The Lord of the Rings_. But it's a complicated situation. In a way, Tolkien is being disingenuous in his dismissal of Classical epic, but for all that he's being utterly sincere when he says he treasures the scraps of Saxon and Gothic we have extant more than all of Greek and Roman literature, and when he says he would gladly trade all of Homer's poems for more information on the lost legend of Wade Partly it comes down to glosso-esthetics, if I may coin such a term: Tolkien was acutely sensitive to the sounds of different languages, and he didn't much care for the sounds Latin and Greek, but he was utterly ravished by the sounds of Gothic, Old English, etc. And partly it's also a Keatsian attitude: "Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard/ Are sweeter..." I can see it both ways, myself. I treasure the Iliad, the Odyssey, and the Aeneid more than any other poems extant, but at the same time I'm ravenously curious to know the story of Wade--and I could tear my hair with frustration when I read about Charlemagne commanding traditional Germanic legends to be written down in the vernacular, and I reflect that not a single copy of any of them is extant! Randi Eldevik Oklahoma State University Larry Swain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 01/06/04 05:14 PM Please respond to mantovano To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: (bcc: Randi C Eldevik/engl/cas/Okstate) Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation --- vincenzo crupi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: - Larry Swain scripsit: AMen. One of the reasons I use Tolkien in a course that deals in European epic literature is because he drew so much from Vergil and Homer. If I recall correctly, Classical Language and Literature was his first "major" before! he switched to philology under Sisam. Et, mehercules, categoriae historiae aliquantum hic strident: horresco referens monstrum istud quod "European epic literature" appellas! Europaeae litterae nec revera sunt nec, si vestro iudicio sint, tamen eundem vultum exhibent et temporibus et locis. Tolkien animum applicat philologiae impulsore Sisam ! Sed id quod tu philologiam vocas rectius philologia Anglorum ad Medium Aevum pertinens appell! I'll only make a few brief comments to this diatribe. First, I used philology in the sense that it was used in British universities before World War I. "Philology" at that period was used to describe the nascent field undertaken in English departments by and large of Indo-European linguistics. This of course has changed drastically over the century, but in 1912, that's the way it was. I also didn't say "impulsore Sisam", I said under Sisam. Kenneth Sisam was Tolkien's tutor in 1912 and it was during this time that he migrated from the Classical faculty to the English faculty. Most of the rest of the message is beside the point. Tolkien et al came from a period in which all of European literature was seen as a continuum, two of the great works that this generation produced was Auerbach's Mimesis covering material from the ancient to the modern world, and Curtius' magnum opus, European Literature in the Latin Middle Ages which assumed a continuity between the Classical past and Medieval literature. That Tolkien also participated in this view is apparent to anyone who has read any of his scholarly pieces. That his fiction is influenced by his scholarly life is also quite well known. That he was embued with the Latin and Greek classics is plain as day. That the classics, as well a
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
t et ad secundum transibimus, ut scrutemur cohaerentiam Aeneidos cum principiis artis poeticae tomporum poetae et genuinam naturam poematis totius: recusationes a Vergilio factae cum ab Augusto iuberetur ut poema de Augusto componeret (in Georgicis, cum Horatio comparatis); ergo lectura fiet locorum celeberrimorum Aeneidos (totus liber IV latine; pars lib. II Latine; pars lib. VI Latine; pars. lib. XI Latine (XI ut musa iocosa in lucem veniat secundum ea quae dixit s. v. "Comico Stile" doctissimus R. B. Lloyd in Enciclopedia Virgiliana et in "Humor in the Aeneid", Class. Journ. 72). In iis legendis, volo ut discipuli, ante omnia gaudeant: vere dicit nostra Helen, quom de pulchritudine loquitur! Sed in gaudendo interea perpotent "amarum/absinthi laticem" (ut ait Lucretius noster!), id est bene comprehendant Aeneidem esse creaturam tam diversam ab Iliade et Odyssea: quom scrutetur diligentissime animum humanum (feminarum praesertim, ducibus Euripide et Apollonio in lib. IV), quom doctrinam exhibeat philologorum, quom elegantiam et argutiam aliquando Alexandrinorum. Nec totum de Aeneide dici potest discipulis et hoc meo iudicio satis est ut respondeam ad unam quaestionem ab iis positam: sit Aeneis genuina an non! Interim melius de Maecenate dicemus (etsi iam diximus cum de Horatio locuti sumus), deque Dante Alighieri, deque Homero - ducibus Knauer et Klingner. Sed Vergilium volo meos discipulos meos legere ut Vergilium cognoscant: de Homero dicemus quod ad Vergilianam imitationem spectet, sed Homerum iam legimus ante, nec cum Vergilio; et idem de Dante Alighieri (qui Tolkien certe non est!): maximus et sublimis poeta, cum Vergilio aliquando comparabo (infandum, regina, iubes renovare dolorem... "Tu vuoi ch'io rinnovelli sì disperato dolor...?"; aut librum VI ex. gratia). Sed Dante, quem ego amo ita ut Vergilium, alio tempore, nec mecum legent discipuli mei. Aliter, timeam ne discipuli credant Dante iisdem temporibus vixisse quibus Homero et Dante, aut non bene sciant Aliud esse opera Homeri et Dantis, aliud Vergilii, nec extare ullum epicum heroa, nisi quem poeta recreat temporibus moribusque suis aptum, ullum epicum stilum nisi quem tempora et artis poeticae progressio volunt. Et revera quam differt vergilianus heros ab homericis! Saepissime quod nos "anti-eroe" vocamus iste videtur (nec heros vocatur qui coniugem in flammis linquit, qui a femina ab undis tractus denuo eam linquit...et hi novi mores Apollonii sunt!); et certe mores et animum exhibet quam "mutatos ab illis "! Astu et fraus Ulixis certe in Aenea non sunt... Grates tibi plurimas ago, quoniam - quamquam tam bellicosus seditiosusque fuissem - mihi scripsisti. Dic mihi, quaeso, magis urbane loquens, si inter nos hoc Foro liceat loqui. Vale >From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation >Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:12:19 -0500 > >On Virgil and Tolkien: what can be said has now been said. Back, then, to >the original question, of how to teach the Aeneid in translation. Do you >give the history all at once, before starting the poem, or do you let it >dribble out as needed? I confess to being a dribbler, but as I have >mentioned earlier, I don't think I have been teaching the poem very >effectively. > > >--- >David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] >East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, &c >--- >--- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Expand your wine savvy and get some great new recipes at MSN Wine. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
On Virgil and Tolkien: what can be said has now been said. Back, then, to the original question, of how to teach the Aeneid in translation. Do you give the history all at once, before starting the poem, or do you let it dribble out as needed? I confess to being a dribbler, but as I have mentioned earlier, I don't think I have been teaching the poem very effectively. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, &c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
--- vincenzo crupi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: - Larry Swain scripsit: AMen. One of the reasons I use Tolkien in a course that deals in European epic literature is because he drew so much from Vergil and Homer. If I recall correctly, Classical Language and Literature was his first "major" before! he switched to philology under Sisam. Et, mehercules, categoriae historiae aliquantum hic strident: horresco referens monstrum istud quod European epic literature appellas! Europaeae litterae nec revera sunt nec, si vestro iudicio sint, tamen eundem vultum exhibent et temporibus et locis. Tolkien animum applicat philologiae impulsore Sisam ! Sed id quod tu philologiam vocas rectius philologia Anglorum ad Medium Aevum pertinens appell! I'll only make a few brief comments to this diatribe. First, I used philology in the sense that it was used in British universities before World War I. "Philology" at that period was used to describe the nascent field undertaken in English departments by and large of Indo-European linguistics. This of course has changed drastically over the century, but in 1912, that's the way it was. I also didn't say "impulsore Sisam", I said under Sisam. Kenneth Sisam was Tolkien's tutor in 1912 and it was during this time that he migrated from the Classical faculty to the English faculty. Most of the rest of the message is beside the point. Tolkien et al came from a period in which all of European literature was seen as a continuum, two of the great works that this generation produced was Auerbach's Mimesis covering material from the ancient to the modern world, and Curtius' magnum opus, European Literature in the Latin Middle Ages which assumed a continuity between the Classical past and Medieval literature. That Tolkien also participated in this view is apparent to anyone who has read any of his scholarly pieces. That his fiction is influenced by his scholarly life is also quite well known. That he was embued with the Latin and Greek classics is plain as day. That the classics, as well as other sources, influenced his work is easily demonstrated. Si ergo tam multiplex implicatumque est quod Vergilius Graecis debet, ut qui duas tantum litteras (latinas et Graecas) docent persaepe Vergilium ab Homero disiunctum teneant, quo se res habet cum ad Tolkenium fuga temporum locorumque ducit? So the epic hero died with Vergil eh? And epic themes were never dealt with in any subsequent literature? And our great epics didn't influence later writers to mimetic works and scenes? Please, spare us. An impassioned plea to not do comparative literature or to engage in studies that cross our dearly held boundaries. I'm afraid I'm not going to try and defend interdisciplinary studies, or interperiod studies and comparative literature against the fear that by doing so we have somehow devalued the context of Vergil or of the study of that context. The best I can do at the moment is to invite you to come and sit in on my class, perhaps you'll learn something. ljs __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Larry Swain scripsit:AMen. One of the reasons I use Tolkien in a coursethat deals in European epic literature is because hedrew so much from Vergil and Homer. If I recallcorrectly, Classical Language and Literature was hisfirst "major" before he switched to philology underSisam. Et, mehercules, categoriae historiae aliquantum hic strident:horresco referens monstrum istud quod European epic literature appellas!Europaeae litterae nec revera sunt nec, si vestro iudicio sint, tamen eundem vultum exhibent et temporibus et locis. Tolkien animum applicat philologiae impulsore Sisam ! Sed id quod tu philologiam vocas rectius philologia Anglorum ad Medium Aevum pertinens appellatur. Neque universum Homeri operis cum Vergilii interpretamur auxiliu m aliquid nobis suppetit nisi vacuos indices parallelorum locorum et thesaurum personarum, locorum rerum gestarum: magis nos adiuvat notitia poematum Andronici, Ennii et Naevii, necnon carminis Priami et Nelei. Qua de causa interpretatio necessario requirit Vergilium in Latinis litteris examinari: nec Vergilii Homerismum extat nisi quod P.V. Cova feliciter LOmerismo alessandrinistico dellEneide vocavit. Nec totum hoc est: quomodo interpretaris Vergilium nisi Ennium nosti, nisi Catullum, nisi Augusti iussa quae contra praecepta poeticae artis temporum illorum procedunt? Cum Aeneidem Vergilius scribit nec heroica poesis amatur a Romanis nec liber magni ponderis (iuxta alexandrinorum, praecipueque Battiadae, praecepta). Recusatio plurima in Vergilium invenies (In Georgicis) contra Augusti iussa ut Augustaeis (magis quam Aeneis) scriberetur. Recusationes plurimas quoque in Horatio inveniuntur eadem de causa. Aeneidos compositio fuit certe litem componere (parce verborum ioco) inter Augusti iussa praeceptaque poeticae artis temporis Vergilii. Nec desiderium, nec finis vergilianae artis Aeneis fuit. Si ergo tam multiplex implicatumque est quod Vergilius Graecis debet, ut qui duas tantum litteras (latinas et Graecas) docent persaepe Vergilium ab Homero disiunctum teneant, quo se res habet cum ad Tolkenium fuga temporum locorumque ducit? Fortasse magis licet quod Helen discipula dicebat cum vos orabat ut sineretis eam legere Vergilium a pulchritudine tantum impulsa: quoniam qui a pulchritudine impulsus legit historiae regulas certe transgreditur, sed non falsas sibi creat Historiae imagines, effectu huius horribilis comparationis totius litterarum orbis. Precipue cum comparatio litterarum comparatio nullius rei mihi videatur, quoniam non sunt nec genera nec sententiae nec argumenta in litteris sed creaturae poetarum tantum quae cum aliis creaturis quid commune habent si modo poeta poetam noverit necnon si quod alicuius populi litterarum Systema nunc vocatur quid cum litteris, cum vita secundi populi dividit. Quod Vergilius a Dante Alighieri tam amaret non satis mihi videtur ut simul duos legam poetas: Dante requirit notiones Mediae aetatis et Romanicae philologiae, quibus in notionibus immensae differentiae eorum resident. Nec umquam sanus est in Mediae Aetatis discipulos ducere per lecturas operum Umberti Echi( The name of the rose!): quia bene interpretatur libellum U. Echi si de studiis scientiae. Via brevis non extat ad lecturam Vergilii: aut per pulchritudinem ingenue legitur etiam in versionibus; aut instrumentis severis Philologiae Classicae: hiis instrumentis unicum apparebit opus suum, quod Historia unicas tantum possidet creaturas. Istud americanus legere per receptionem, per argumenta, per res, per genera, velitis considerare, quoniam meta-lectura fit, id est lectura lecturarum nec lectura Vergilii certe. Valete >From: Larry Swain <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation >Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 22:28:53 -0800 (PST) > > >AMen. One of the reasons I use Tolkien in a course >that deals in European epic literature is because he >drew so much from Vergil and Homer. If I recall >correctly, Classical Language and Literature was his >first "major" before he switched to philology under >Sisam. > >Larry Swain > >Wilson Okamura scripsit: > >I teach and write at a large public university in >eastern North Carolina (not to be confused, I am >afraid, with the University of North Carolina at >Chapel Hill, which is a much better school). As for >Tolkien and Virgil, I do not take offense at your >words. My courses are usually offered in the English >department. This content of this particular course is >defined very loosely. I have chosen books that (a) are >worth teaching and (b) cohere together as a group. We >think of Tolkien as a scholar of Old English, but the >man also knew his classics. This is clear from his >lectures and letters. But it also comes out in his >fiction. Have you ever noticed
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
AMen. One of the reasons I use Tolkien in a course that deals in European epic literature is because he drew so much from Vergil and Homer. If I recall correctly, Classical Language and Literature was his first "major" before he switched to philology under Sisam. Larry Swain Wilson Okamura scripsit: I teach and write at a large public university in eastern North Carolina (not to be confused, I am afraid, with the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which is a much better school). As for Tolkien and Virgil, I do not take offense at your words. My courses are usually offered in the English department. This content of this particular course is defined very loosely. I have chosen books that (a) are worth teaching and (b) cohere together as a group. We think of Tolkien as a scholar of Old English, but the man also knew his classics. This is clear from his lectures and letters. But it also comes out in his fiction. Have you ever noticed, for instance, that there are no birds in the Dead Marshes? The point is made two or three times in the text, even though it has no bearing on the plot. Why? Because Frodo and Sam are on their way to Mordor, and Tolkien wants us to thi! nk of the underworld. Cf. Aen. 6.237ff: Clarissime, Wilson-Okamura, ingenio acutissimo praedite, gratias plurimas tibi ago quia non solum efficis ut pertinentiam loci Vergilii cum Tolkenii opere cognoscam ( revera recta pertinentia ista et doctissime a te esplicata), sed etiam quia Tolkenii opus melius nunc comprehendam, cum adhuc oderim . Aliud est enim Tolkien apud Britannicos et Americanos aliud apud Italicos. Apud Italos enim Tolkien celeberrimus factus est postquam rerum potiti sunt ii quos nos Fascisti vocamus (Berlusconi et alii ) et Tolkenii operis isti « Fascisti » amant maxime illud « Super man » qui iis videtur inveniri posse in aliquibus fabularum Tolkenii personis. Tolkien « as a scholar of Old English qui also knew his classics non novum nobis, sed hoc non satis ut ipse cum Vergilio misceatur: cavendum est ne nobis, in alligandis tot scriptorum tam et tempore et spatio dissimilium locis, accidat idem quod Habinnae in Petronio (Satyricon, LVIII), cum Encolpius exclamat, postquam Habinna declamavit Aen. V,1: « nullus sonus unquam acidior percussit aures meas ; nam praeter errantis barbariae aut adiectum aut deminutum clamorem, miscebat Atellanicos versus, ut tunc primum me Vergilus offenderit ». Verum est, insignis Wilson-Okamura, quod dixit Jacobus Le Goff, cum affirmavit scientiam antiquitatis principium habere in ea quae est praesens conscientia aetatis nostrae et praecipue cum dixit Americanos non satis profunda sentire principia antiquitatis eorum : abhinc ergo istud miscere Vergilio scriptores recentes ? Si cum Europaeis communis Antiquitas putanda est Americanorum, certe vobis Tolkien satis antiquus apparebit, quia satis Europaeus, praesertim cum idem sit v! ir doctus Britannicarum antiquitatum ? Et quomodo discipuli Caesarem vel Augustum cognoscent si cum fabulis scriptis ab Auctore XX saeculi et ad Mediam Tempestatem Britannicam afferentibus Aeneis legitur ? Revera et in Italia quoque recentissimis temporibus, relictis Historiae Philologiaeque regulis et instrumentis, ista consuetudo vestra vecta est miscendorum variarum aetatum et variorum locorum scriptorum, alligatis per argumenta locis eorum ( ex. gratia : qui de amore scripserunt simul leguntur, vel qui de bello). Et iisdem recentissimis temporibus pervenit i! n Italiam usus Americanus eorum instrumentorum docendi qui apud vos « tests » vocantur, ita ut Schola non regnum ratiocinandi et sentiendi appareat sed unus ex iis spectaculis in quibus fiunt ea quae « quiz » vocantur. Sed sane, non totum in iis generalibus consuetudinibus hauritur ingenium tuum ; et revera cum de linqua loqueris splendidis argumentis mihi persuades ut tibi credam nullum extare periculum discipulis tuis. Historiae profunditas confusa autem tribus rebus aqua sustinetur praesentis aevi : monumentis qui e terra eminent ; religione et moribus ; lingua praecipue. Si linguam perscrutas semper ita ut facis nec Vergilius disiunctus est a Tolkienio neque a nobis. Lingua enim tamquam latere constructa pervenit ad nos laterem ad laterem adponendo, neque ordine certo, sed omnibus una superficie iacentibus : cum lateres istos scrutamur historiae restituimus quod suum est et historia in praesentem adfluit, tamquam Mercurius divinum regnum et humanum vivorum et mortuorum efficiebat ut communicarent. Et ab eo enim Graeci « hermeneutiké » creaverunt , quae ars est praecipue nostra. Vale. >From: David Wilson-Okamura >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation >Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:45:05 -0500 > ><< attach1 >> - Personalizza MSN
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Wilson Okamura scripsit: I teach and write at a large public university in eastern North Carolina (not to be confused, I am afraid, with the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which is a much better school). As for Tolkien and Virgil, I do not take offense at your words. My courses are usually offered in the English department. This content of this particular course is defined very loosely. I have chosen books that (a) are worth teaching and (b) cohere together as a group. We think of Tolkien as a scholar of Old English, but the man also knew his classics. This is clear from his lectures and letters. But it also comes out in his fiction. Have you ever noticed, for instance, that there are no birds in the Dead Marshes? The point is made two or three times in the text, even though it has no bearing on the plot. Why? Because Frodo and Sam are on their way to Mordor, and Tolkien wants us to think of the underworld. Cf. Aen. 6.237ff: Clarissime, Wilson-Okamura, ingenio acutissimo praedite, gratias plurimas tibi ago quia non solum efficis ut pertinentiam loci Vergilii cum Tolkenii opere cognoscam ( revera recta pertinentia ista et doctissime a te esplicata), sed etiam quia Tolkenii opus melius nunc comprehendam, cum adhuc oderim . Aliud est enim Tolkien apud Britannicos et Americanos aliud apud Italicos. Apud Italos enim Tolkien celeberrimus factus est postquam rerum potiti sunt ii quos nos Fascisti vocamus (Berlusconi et alii ) et Tolkenii operis isti « Fascisti » amant maxime illud « Super man » qui iis videtur inveniri posse in aliquibus fabularum Tolkenii personis. Tolkien « as a scholar of Old English qui also knew his classics non novum nobis, sed hoc non satis ut ipse cum Vergilio misceatur: cavendum est ne nobis, in alligandis tot scriptorum tam et tempore et spatio dissimilium locis, accidat idem quod Habinnae in Petronio (Satyricon, LVIII), cum Encolpius exclamat, postquam Habinna declamavit Aen. V,1: « nullus sonus unquam acidior percussit aures meas ; nam praeter errantis barbariae aut adiectum aut deminutum clamorem, miscebat Atellanicos versus, ut tunc primum me Vergilus offenderit ». Verum est, insignis Wilson-Okamura, quod dixit Jacobus Le Goff, cum affirmavit scientiam antiquitatis principium habere in ea quae est praesens conscientia aetatis nostrae et praecipue cum dixit Americanos non satis profunda sentire principia antiquitatis eorum : abhinc ergo istud miscere Vergilio scriptores recentes ? Si cum Europaeis communis Antiquitas putanda est Americanorum, certe vobis Tolkien satis antiquus apparebit, quia satis Europaeus, praesertim cum idem sit vir doctus Britannicarum antiquitatum ? Et quomodo discipuli Caesarem vel Augustum cognoscent si cum fabulis scriptis ab Auctore XX saeculi et ad Mediam Tempestatem Britannicam afferentibus Aeneis legitur ? Revera et in Italia quoque recentissimis temporibus, relictis Historiae Philologiaeque regulis et instrumentis, ista consuetudo vestra vecta est miscendorum variarum aetatum et variorum locorum scriptorum, alligatis per argumenta locis eorum ( ex. gratia : qui de amore scripserunt simul leguntur, vel qui de bello). Et iisdem recentissimis temporibus pervenit in Italiam usus Americanus eorum instrumentorum docendi qui apud vos « tests » vocantur, ita ut Schola non regnum ratiocinandi et sentiendi appareat sed unus ex iis spectaculis in quibus fiunt ea quae « quiz » vocantur. Sed sane, non totum in iis generalibus consuetudinibus hauritur ingenium tuum ; et revera cum de linqua loqueris splendidis argumentis mihi persuades ut tibi credam nullum extare periculum discipulis tuis. Historiae profunditas confusa autem tribus rebus aqua sustinetur praesentis aevi : monumentis qui e terra eminent ; religione et moribus ; lingua praecipue. Si linguam perscrutas semper ita ut facis nec Vergilius disiunctus est a Tolkienio neque a nobis. Lingua enim tamquam latere constructa pervenit ad nos laterem ad laterem adponendo, neque ordine certo, sed omnibus una superficie iacentibus : cum lateres istos scrutamur historiae restituimus quod suum est et historia in praesentem adfluit, tamquam Mercurius divinum regnum et humanum vivorum et mortuorum efficiebat ut communicarent. Et ab eo enim Graeci « hermeneutiké » creaverunt , quae ars est praecipue nostra. Vale. >From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation >Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:45:05 -0500 > ><< attach1 >> Personalizza MSN Messenger con sfondi e foto. E' divertente! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
At 01:28 AM 1/5/2004 +, Vincentius Crupi wrote: Sin autem in Scholis secundariis seu superioribus (quas vos Angli - nisi fallor - 'High Schools vocatis') minima sunt pericula, praesertim si Vergilius legitur cum Homero ut dicis. Sed sane Vergilius cum Tolkien ridiculum mihi videtur. At discipuli tui legunt Robert Graves? Absit iniuria verbis meis. Nescio utrum philologorum opus an totius humanae scientiae tibi proposuisti aut proposuit tibi structura Americanorum cuccirulorum studiorum. I teach and write at a large public university in eastern North Carolina (not to be confused, I am afraid, with the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which is a much better school). As for Tolkien and Virgil, I do not take offense at your words. My courses are usually offered in the English department. This content of this particular course is defined very loosely. I have chosen books that (a) are worth teaching and (b) cohere together as a group. We think of Tolkien as a scholar of Old English, but the man also knew his classics. This is clear from his lectures and letters. But it also comes out in his fiction. Have you ever noticed, for instance, that there are no birds in the Dead Marshes? The point is made two or three times in the text, even though it has no bearing on the plot. Why? Because Frodo and Sam are on their way to Mordor, and Tolkien wants us to think of the underworld. Cf. Aen. 6.237ff: spelunca alta fuit uastoque immanis hiatu, scrupea, tuta lacu nigro nemorumque tenebris, quam super haud ullae poterant impune uolantes tendere iter pennis: talis sese halitus atris faucibus effundens supera ad conuexa ferebat. [unde locum Grai dixerunt nomine Aornum.] "A false lie," as the King would say, but an interesting one all the same! Tolkien would have approved. As an inventor of languages, he "knew" what the words meant and where they came from. But he also invented corruptions. A simple example is the river Brandywine. Originally, it was called the Baranduin, a word that means, in the high Elvish tongue, "brown river." But the Elves left and the place was settled by hobbits. Bibulous folk and ignorant, they heard a word that sounded like brandy-wine. Which is wrong, but still a good name for a river. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, &c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Clarissime, nuper scripsisti aliqua de scholis et translationibus et pigris studentibus quaue ego libenter legi . Sed pericula non comprehendam neque te iuvare potero, nisi sciam utrum in Universitate studiorum aliqua an schola superiori (hig school) sis Magister. Illud meum pericula ad Humanitatis scientiam attinet, praesertim cum iam pluribus annis in celeberrimo libello Reynholds et Wilson autumaverunt iuvenes nescire latinam linguam (illi Viri Docti de Anglis studentibus haec adfirmaverunt !). Ergo, si in Universitate Magister es Latinae linguae, pericula maxima video ad humanitatis omnia studia spectantia. Sin autem in Scholis secundariis seu superioribus (quas vos Angli - nisi fallor - 'High Schools vocatis') minima sunt pericula, praesertim si Vergilius legitur cum Homero ut dicis. Sed sane Vergilius cum Tolkien ridiculum mihi videtur. At discipuli tui legunt Robert Graves? Absit iniuria verbis meis. Nescio utrum philologorum opus an totius humanae scientiae tibi proposuisti aut proposuit tibi structura Americanorum cuccirulorum studiorum. Et sane mihi hoc ridiculum videtur cum ego in interpretando Vergilio cum meis discipulis utar, multo cum gaudio eorum, disciplinis interpretandi Americanis: multum amo Harold Bloom (quem italice translatum lego) et lecturas reader-oriented. Sed ego magister sum Latinae Linguae nec Litterarum totius orbis et discipuli mei translationes quasi cotidianas Latinorum Scriptorum perficiunt . Certe tibi consilium vellem dare sive in universitate sive in Schola sis magister: quaestio in vice lectionum persolvitur. Et primum: legant discipuli tui aliquem simplicissimum compendium Aeneidos (si non invenis, scribas tu ipse); deinde legant Angle translatum opus (melius si partes magis amabiles nec totum: exempli gratia liber II, et IV) ; denique latine legant minimas partes poematis : quae res difficiles in iis partibus sint explica iis antequam legant (si in machina quae computer vocatur immittis textum , ista machinula generabit indicem alphabeticum omnium vocabulorum (Word hoc facit) et inde nomina locorum, et facta, et nomina personarum, et res precipue Latinas potes breviter iis esplicare. Sed hoc facile est factu si Latine leges cum discipulis tuis selectas et pulchras partes poematis. Vale Vincentius Crupi >From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation >Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:12:17 -0500 > ><< attach1 >> Nuovo MSN Messenger 6.1: con sfondi, foto e giochi. Provalo subito! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
I agree whole heartedly with what you have written. Primarily, I feel the first method on understanding any of the ancient narratives, if first to understand the nature of humanity. That in itself is a huge undertaking; but rather to understand the social situations of ancient times first in general terms and then to delve slowly on the intricacies that made ancient society whether it be Greek or Roman what it was and why Virgil or for that fact even Homer embarked on using stories to capture the ancient minds. Yes, I believe historically we as moderns have some idea of what happened; whether it be accurate or not. But do we take these readings as being historically sound. No even as the poems are read today they are not read for their historical accuracy, but for absolute pleasure and enrichment of the soul. Toni
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
At 11:48 PM 1/2/2004 EST, Toni wrote: My posture is that as long as better translations are being made available to students who do not have a background in classical latin, then that stokes the fire of curiosity which would then spur those of a more curious nature to either take classes in classical latin or to obtain the latin translation of the narrative and compare the differences of both the Engish and Latin translations. That is what happened to me. I read the Aeneid for the first time in Mandelbaum's translation as part of a three-quarter sequence called Western Civilization. It was my first quarter at Stanford. I was converted instantly, and the next year I started taking Latin so that I could read the poem in the original. This is probably the exception, I know. The question, I think, is not whether the poem can be taught in translation -- obviously it can. Rather, how does one teach a poem that makes so much of history, when the students who are reading it don't know any history? Going back to something that LHS said earlier in our discussion, it's not just that a knowledge of Roman history enriches our understanding of the poem. The history of Rome, the destiny of its people is what the poem is about. So, what must I do to be saved? How much do students need to know? Something about JC and Augustus. Something about Antony and Cleopatra, not only for bk. 4 but also for bk. 8 and maybe for bk. 12 as well (if, as I have suggested earlier, the final encounter between Aeneas and Turnus ~ the duel that might have been between Antony and Octavian -- something that was talked about before Actium, but which never came off). What about the civil wars? On my reading, the fall of Troy (bk. 2) ~ the fall of the Republic and the civil wars leading up to Pompey's headless carcass. The war in Italy (bks. 7-12) ~ the civil war between Antony and Octavian leading up to Actium. But this is speculation -- and maybe that's a sign that it should be left out of a basic introduction. For bk. 5 (Montaigne's favorite), something might be said about JC's funeral games and JC's comet (the historical prototype for Acestes' flaming arrow). But these things are easier to explain than the fall of the Republic. The challenge, as I think about it, is to give students a sense, a taste of the poem's richness. What we don't want is for students to leave class with the impression that they can't enjoy Virgil unless they have a master's degree in Roman history. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, &c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Again, I think you are taking a posture that most translations are are lacking the richness that the classical latin text has. I have read two translations of the Aeneid and have been totally fulfilled in both translations. That is not to say that if I had read the Aeneid in Latin, the interpretative properties associated with the original language may have provided a clearer and cleaner version of the narrative. I think just the exposure of reading a difficult text such as the Aeneid to students in their native tongue ( in this case I refer strictly to English) provides a basic backdrop to Virgil's timeless story. My posture is that as long as better translations are being made available to students who do not have a background in classical latin, then that stokes the fire of curiosity which would then spur those of a more curious nature to either take classes in classical latin or to obtain the latin translation of the narrative and compare the differences of both the Engish and Latin translations. Toni
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Your point is taken. When I first read the Aeneid it was in Latin, but we also read and English version alongside for comparison and so forth. We used the Penguin Classics version and as students of Latin, some of the students found that version to be insufficient; I imagine this was of course in comparison to the Latin itself. The "best translation" is something that I consider very subjective and I think that the key to teaching the epic in translation would have to be oral reading, in the manner of a Roman "lector." This I think will demand a listening and close reading of the text which the instructor could direct accordingly. I have sympathy for the students that find trouble with the Aeneid, I thought it made horrible reading in translation and think that all who read it must first read it in its latin so that they will not have any aversion to reading it again or to the memory of having read it once for class. I hope the teachers in the forum dealing with the matter find successful methods. a humble student send his regards, runako taylor >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation >Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 08:38:57 EST > >All that said, most students have not studied latin. In order to embark on >such a journey, the reading of two texts; latin and english would be quite a >vigorous task not to mention a very ambitious text. My suggestion would be to >get the BEST english translation for for Virgil's Aenid, once the text is >understood, then the student (if he so desires) can venture into the latin text >(equipped of course with a classical latin dictionary) and take it from there. >Although as you say the latin version is most rich, few students have studied >classical latin; and I feel just reading the best english translation could >work just as well. > >Toni MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! Cliquez-ici --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
The best translation, hands down, is the prose translation of Rushton Fairclough in the old Loeb; the runner-up is Jackson Knight's prose translation (once published by Penguin). Fairclough's translation was a gem, and the editors of the Loeb decided poorly to discard it.
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
I have always been fond of Frank Copley's translation of the Aeneid but Robert Fitzgerald's is what we use in AP Latin IV at Watterson HS. - Original Message - From: Larry Swain To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:38 PM Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation It sounds like we teach a similar class. I haven't,though have thought about, using the Aeneid in acourse on epic literature from the ancient world tothe modern, but I've been afraid that it would be tooheavy for a lower division course. So I'm curiousabout your experience with it that you hint at below.On another note, those who teach or would teach theAeneid in translation, which translation(s) would yourecommend?L. J. Swain--- alexander bril <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > > This is a poem that I know rather well, and I have> been writing about> the reception of the Aeneid for several years. Over> the course of the> last five years, I have taught the poem four times,> and will do so again> in about a month. I confess, however, that I am> consistently> dissatisfied with what happens when I bring this> book into the> classroom. Lately I have been teaching the poem in> translation,> alongside of the Odyssey, Beowulf, and the Lord of> the Rings. The Aeneid> is the second book we read, and it always feels like> a struggle. > > [alexander wrote this:] > > W. Anderson in his *Art of the Aeneid* wrote: 'It is> the common> experience of teachers dealing with humanities> courses or courses in> Greek and Roman literature that the Aeneid fails to> impress the average> student, to a large degree because of the inadequacy> of all> translations... Vergil placed insuperable problems> in the way of> translators: his style, an essential aspect of the> total epic, has not> been, and probably cannot be translated. Unlike> Homer, Vergil did not> produce a poem which would be a "good story" in> itself. Anyone can enjoy> the Odyssey, for example, whether presented in> Victorian prose or in> racy modern verse; its power does not depend so> heavily on the> techniques of oral composition. When Vergil wrote> the Aeneid, the> different times and his own special talents demanded> a thoroughly> conscious exploitation of every relevant stylistic> technique. The art> of the Aeneid, therefore, involves many technical> skills which Vergil,> starting from the experiments of his predecessors,> developed to> near-perfection...'> > There is much food for thought in these words. If> one accepts them, how> is one to escape the feeling that teaching Vergilian> epic in translation> is rather a waste of time? Granted that teaching any> text in translation> inevitably leads to a certain degree of> dissatisfaction on the part of> both teacher and students, how much more is this the> case with the> Aeneid, which, as Anderson argues, depends little on> the story for its> claim to greatness? > > But if one MUST teach the Aeneid in translation, I> think the only way to> go about doing this is to concentrate on a few parts> only -- preferably> the more dramatic parts. I suggest that it will help> students to> appreciate something of the Aeneid's greatness if> one can by means of> these few selected sections illustrate -- along the> lines set out by the> great Vergilian scholar Heinze -- some of the> salient features of> Vergil's consummate epic technique, especially his> handling of the> mythological and literary traditions of his> predecessors, his judicious> composition (unity, sequence of scenes, organisation> etc.), his subtle> exploitation of dramatic and emotive elements, his> intellectualisation> of simplistic traditional characters and plot> situations etc. Much of> this illustration can be done with little or no> reference to language> and style, the two stumbling blocks for many> Latin-less students which> stand in the way of their more profound appreciation> of the text. Like> Heinze, one can easily show how Vergil's accounts,> for the purposes of> epic, far surpass analogous accounts in Quintus,> Apollodorus,> Tryphiodorus etc. > > This method also has the virtue of circumventing the> need to give crash> courses on ancient geography and history, the> benefit of which must be> weighed against the time constraints imposed on the> text-in-translation> course. > > Only a detailed study of a few selected passages> (given the time&
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
It sounds like we teach a similar class. I haven't, though have thought about, using the Aeneid in a course on epic literature from the ancient world to the modern, but I've been afraid that it would be too heavy for a lower division course. So I'm curious about your experience with it that you hint at below. On another note, those who teach or would teach the Aeneid in translation, which translation(s) would you recommend? L. J. Swain --- alexander bril <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > This is a poem that I know rather well, and I have > been writing about > the reception of the Aeneid for several years. Over > the course of the > last five years, I have taught the poem four times, > and will do so again > in about a month. I confess, however, that I am > consistently > dissatisfied with what happens when I bring this > book into the > classroom. Lately I have been teaching the poem in > translation, > alongside of the Odyssey, Beowulf, and the Lord of > the Rings. The Aeneid > is the second book we read, and it always feels like > a struggle. > > [alexander wrote this:] > > W. Anderson in his *Art of the Aeneid* wrote: 'It is > the common > experience of teachers dealing with humanities > courses or courses in > Greek and Roman literature that the Aeneid fails to > impress the average > student, to a large degree because of the inadequacy > of all > translations... Vergil placed insuperable problems > in the way of > translators: his style, an essential aspect of the > total epic, has not > been, and probably cannot be translated. Unlike > Homer, Vergil did not > produce a poem which would be a "good story" in > itself. Anyone can enjoy > the Odyssey, for example, whether presented in > Victorian prose or in > racy modern verse; its power does not depend so > heavily on the > techniques of oral composition. When Vergil wrote > the Aeneid, the > different times and his own special talents demanded > a thoroughly > conscious exploitation of every relevant stylistic > technique. The art > of the Aeneid, therefore, involves many technical > skills which Vergil, > starting from the experiments of his predecessors, > developed to > near-perfection...' > > There is much food for thought in these words. If > one accepts them, how > is one to escape the feeling that teaching Vergilian > epic in translation > is rather a waste of time? Granted that teaching any > text in translation > inevitably leads to a certain degree of > dissatisfaction on the part of > both teacher and students, how much more is this the > case with the > Aeneid, which, as Anderson argues, depends little on > the story for its > claim to greatness? > > But if one MUST teach the Aeneid in translation, I > think the only way to > go about doing this is to concentrate on a few parts > only -- preferably > the more dramatic parts. I suggest that it will help > students to > appreciate something of the Aeneid's greatness if > one can by means of > these few selected sections illustrate -- along the > lines set out by the > great Vergilian scholar Heinze -- some of the > salient features of > Vergil's consummate epic technique, especially his > handling of the > mythological and literary traditions of his > predecessors, his judicious > composition (unity, sequence of scenes, organisation > etc.), his subtle > exploitation of dramatic and emotive elements, his > intellectualisation > of simplistic traditional characters and plot > situations etc. Much of > this illustration can be done with little or no > reference to language > and style, the two stumbling blocks for many > Latin-less students which > stand in the way of their more profound appreciation > of the text. Like > Heinze, one can easily show how Vergil's accounts, > for the purposes of > epic, far surpass analogous accounts in Quintus, > Apollodorus, > Tryphiodorus etc. > > This method also has the virtue of circumventing the > need to give crash > courses on ancient geography and history, the > benefit of which must be > weighed against the time constraints imposed on the > text-in-translation > course. > > Only a detailed study of a few selected passages > (given the time > constraints of teaching a course within one year in > which other texts > are also studied) can, in my view, leave students > with something > approaching true appreciation of the Aeneid's > greatness. Anything more > rapid or superficial, will only result in something > like those idiotic 2 > week pan-European tours for the > culturally-illiterate epicurean swine > brigade. Those who've been on them, can say they've > been there (to > Europe) and they've seen the sights, but none of > them can tell you > anything really significant about what they've seen > and (should) have > experienced. > > > alexander > perth, australia > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system > (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
This is a good point. But having made it, perhaps the members of the list can give their qualified opinions concerning which translation they use and why. __ John S. Smurthwaite, Ph.D. An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. --Anatole France _ Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work and yourself. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
All that said, most students have not studied latin. In order to embark on such a journey, the reading of two texts; latin and english would be quite a vigorous task not to mention a very ambitious text. My suggestion would be to get the BEST english translation for for Virgil's Aenid, once the text is understood, then the student (if he so desires) can venture into the latin text (equipped of course with a classical latin dictionary) and take it from there. Although as you say the latin version is most rich, few students have studied classical latin; and I feel just reading the best english translation could work just as well. Toni
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
I am a student of Classics in NYC and I must confess that the Aeneid is quite taxing to read in English. I think that students miss a lot of the symbolism and meaning throughout the Aeneid if they just skim through it which is what many do when they read. I read the epic in Latin and while I struggled, my amateur level of reading forced me to take my time and read carefully and I have to admit that the reading was fulfilling on many levels. With that said, I think that it would help if a teacher had a latin text along with the english because I think that so much is lost in any english translation; the symbolism in context of the Roman world as well as the beauty of the language itself. hope your students learn to appreciate the epic like I did regards runako >From: "alexander bril" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation >Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:14:03 +0800 > > > >This is a poem that I know rather well, and I have been writing about >the reception of the Aeneid for several years. Over the course of the >last five years, I have taught the poem four times, and will do so again >in about a month. I confess, however, that I am consistently >dissatisfied with what happens when I bring this book into the >classroom. Lately I have been teaching the poem in translation, >alongside of the Odyssey, Beowulf, and the Lord of the Rings. The Aeneid >is the second book we read, and it always feels like a struggle. > >[alexander wrote this:] > >W. Anderson in his *Art of the Aeneid* wrote: 'It is the common >experience of teachers dealing with humanities courses or courses in >Greek an! d Roman literature that the Aeneid fails to impress the average >student, to a large degree because of the inadequacy of all >translations... Vergil placed insuperable problems in the way of >translators: his style, an essential aspect of the total epic, has not >been, and probably cannot be translated. Unlike Homer, Vergil did not >produce a poem which would be a "good story" in itself. Anyone can enjoy >the Odyssey, for example, whether presented in Victorian prose or in >racy modern verse; its power does not depend so heavily on the >techniques of oral composition. When Vergil wrote the Aeneid, the >different times and his own special talents demanded a thoroughly >conscious exploitation of every relevant stylistic technique. The art >of the Aeneid, therefore, involves many technical skills which Vergil, >starting from the experiments of his predecessors, developed to >near-perfection...' > >There is much food for thought in t! hese words. If one accepts them, how >is one to escape the feeling that teaching Vergilian epic in translation >is rather a waste of time? Granted that teaching any text in translation >inevitably leads to a certain degree of dissatisfaction on the part of >both teacher and students, how much more is this the case with the >Aeneid, which, as Anderson argues, depends little on the story for its >claim to greatness? > >But if one MUST teach the Aeneid in translation, I think the only way to >go about doing this is to concentrate on a few parts only -- preferably >the more dramatic parts. I suggest that it will help students to >appreciate something of the Aeneid's greatness if one can by means of >these few selected sections illustrate -- along the lines set out by the >great Vergilian scholar Heinze -- some of the salient features of >Vergil's consummate epic technique, especially his handling of the >mythological and literary traditions of his predecessors, his judicious >composition (unity, sequ! ence of scenes, organisation etc.), his subtle >exploitation of dramatic and emotive elements, his intellectualisation >of simplistic traditional characters and plot situations etc. Much of >this illustration can be done with little or no reference to language >and style, the two stumbling blocks for many Latin-less students which >stand in the way of their more profound appreciation of the text. Like >Heinze, one can easily show how Vergil's accounts, for the purposes of >epic, far surpass analogous accounts in Quintus, Apollodorus, >Tryphiodorus etc. > >This method also has the virtue of circumventing the need to give crash >courses on ancient geography and history, the benefit of which must be >weighed against the time constraints imposed on the text-in-translation >course. > >Only a detailed study of a few selected passages (given the time >constraints of teaching a course within one year in which other texts >are also ! studied) can, in my view, leave students with something >approachin g true appreciation of the Aeneid's greatness. Anything more &
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Title: Message This is a poem that I know rather well, and I have been writing about the reception of the Aeneid for several years. Over the course of the last five years, I have taught the poem four times, and will do so again in about a month. I confess, however, that I am consistently dissatisfied with what happens when I bring this book into the classroom. Lately I have been teaching the poem in translation, alongside of the Odyssey, Beowulf, and the Lord of the Rings. The Aeneid is the second book we read, and it always feels like a struggle. [alexander wrote this:] W. Anderson in his *Art of the Aeneid* wrote: 'It is the common experience of teachers dealing with humanities courses or courses in Greek and Roman literature that the Aeneid fails to impress the average student, to a large degree because of the inadequacy of all translations... Vergil placed insuperable problems in the way of translators: his style, an essential aspect of the total epic, has not been, and probably cannot be translated. Unlike Homer, Vergil did not produce a poem which would be a "good story" in itself. Anyone can enjoy the Odyssey, for example, whether presented in Victorian prose or in racy modern verse; its power does not depend so heavily on the techniques of oral composition. When Vergil wrote the Aeneid, the different times and his own special talents demanded a thoroughly conscious exploitation of every relevant stylistic technique. The art of the Aeneid, therefore, involves many technical skills which Vergil, starting from the experiments of his predecessors, developed to near-perfection...' There is much food for thought in these words. If one accepts them, how is one to escape the feeling that teaching Vergilian epic in translation is rather a waste of time? Granted that teaching any text in translation inevitably leads to a certain degree of dissatisfaction on the part of both teacher and students, how much more is this the case with the Aeneid, which, as Anderson argues, depends little on the story for its claim to greatness? But if one MUST teach the Aeneid in translation, I think the only way to go about doing this is to concentrate on a few parts only -- preferably the more dramatic parts. I suggest that it will help students to appreciate something of the Aeneid's greatness if one can by means of these few selected sections illustrate -- along the lines set out by the great Vergilian scholar Heinze -- some of the salient features of Vergil's consummate epic technique, especially his handling of the mythological and literary traditions of his predecessors, his judicious composition (unity, sequence of scenes, organisation etc.), his subtle exploitation of dramatic and emotive elements, his intellectualisation of simplistic traditional characters and plot situations etc. Much of this illustration can be done with little or no reference to language and style, the two stumbling blocks for many Latin-less students which stand in the way of their more profound appreciation of the text. Like Heinze, one can easily show how Vergil's accounts, for the purposes of epic, far surpass analogous accounts in Quintus, Apollodorus, Tryphiodorus etc. This method also has the virtue of circumventing the need to give crash courses on ancient geography and history, the benefit of which must be weighed against the time constraints imposed on the text-in-translation course. Only a detailed study of a few selected passages (given the time constraints of teaching a course within one year in which other texts are also studied) can, in my view, leave students with something approaching true appreciation of the Aeneid's greatness. Anything more rapid or superficial, will only result in something like those idiotic 2 week pan-European tours for the culturally-illiterate epicurean swine brigade. Those who've been on them, can say they've been there (to Europe) and they've seen the sights, but none of them can tell you anything really significant about what they've seen and (should) have experienced. alexander perth, australia --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.516 / Virus Database: 313 - Release Date: 9/1/2003
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes One thing I've thought about doing is bringing in some slides of ancient Rome; my hope is that this will make the history a bit less abstract. I'm wondering, though, whether I might have more success if I simply left the history alone and focused on the literary elements. Vergil didn't leave out the history, or the politics, even if people can't agree what to make of them, or even whether they're *meant* to agree. It is surely a legitimate question to ask whether Aeneas' abandonment of Dido, at divine behest, for his higher destiny, is to be read not merely as a fusion of the Calypso and Circe episodes (or even in relation to Naevius, if we think we know enough about him to debate Horsfall's account of the matter), but as a pointed comment on Antony's adherence to the national enemy Cleopatra; at least that how I reacted to it at school. Leofranc Holford-Strevens -- *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/353865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home)/[EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
