Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Andrew Pollack]

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I have not had time to read most of the contributions to this discussion.
But the MIA JUST TODAY added the below by Victor Serge on the Jewish
Question. And since I assume most of you are not checking the What's New
page every day, as you should be, here it is:

https://www.marxists.org/archive/serge/1944/10/jewish-question.htm

And the What's New page, updated every day:
https://www.marxists.org/admin/new/index.htm

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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Marv Gandall]

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On 2013-07-01, at 6:31 PM, Einde O'Callaghan wrote:

> On 01.07.2013 20:12, Louis Proyect wrote:
>> 
>> Anti-Semitism poses absolutely no danger anywhere in the world to Jews.
> 
> I'm sorry to contradict you, Louis. the reports coming out of Hungary are 
> quite worrying. People are being beaten up in the streets for participating 
> in protests against desecrations of Jewish graves. While it's true that in 
> most of Western and Central Europe anti-Muslim politics and activities are a 
> greater threat the traditional fascist anti-Semitism is still a living force. 
> And even though most attacks by Golden Dawn in Greece are directed against 
> Muslim refugees and immigrants they also indulge in old-fashioned 
> anti-semitism too. I wouldn't be so sure that traditional anti-Semitism is a 
> spent force. Here in Germany the desecration of Jewish cemeteries and 
> buildings is at least as common as desecrations aimed at Muslim institutions 
> and buildings. Here in Chemnitz, where I live, a popular Jewsih restaurant 
> was forced to close because it became increasingly difficult to get insurance 
> coverage because it was damaged so regularly by drunken (and not so drunken) 
> Nazis. An Arab restau
 rant in the same street had far fewer problems.


As Daniel Rocha has already noted, to the degree that there is a backlash of 
sorts against discussion of anti-semitism among those whose anti-racist 
credentials are beyond doubt, including on this list, it stems from the 
disproportionate attention to the subject generated by the Holocaust industry 
which has shamefully exploited it to build support for Zionism and Israel and 
to  indiscriminately smear critics of oppressive Israeli policies as 
"anti-semites".  The effect of such propaganda has been to obscure and devalue 
the immense human tragedy which befell oppressed European Jews, Romas, gays, 
and the disabled, and to have given rise to renewed anti-semitic sentiments 
based on the perception that "the Jews" own the means of communication and are 
using the media and entertainment industries to pursue their own narrow 
interests. 

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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Michael Smith]

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On Mon, 1 Jul 2013 18:47:58 -0400
Sheldon Ranz  wrote:

> As long as systems of oppression require a scapegoat to sustain
> themselves in times of crisis, appeals to anti-Semitism will come in
> handy.  

Really? How surprising then that there's so little of it. 

Anti-Semitism is at best a mere fringe phenomenon these days, 
but anti-anti-Semitism is perennial. I suspect it's because
nobody wants to give up the moral fringe benefits of being 
an oppressed people -- especially if these can be enjoyed 
without the inconvenience of actually being oppressed.  
 
-- 
m...@smithbowen.net
http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org

Leur sçavoir n’estoyt que besterye, et leur sapience n’estoyt 
que moufles, abastardisant les bons et nobles esperitz, et 
corrumpent toute fleur de ieunesse. 


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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Daniel Rocha]

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The worst part of antisemitism, and the holocaust, nowadays is, by far, its
use as a tool for Israel to make itself a victim and oppress the
Palestinians as well to support governments that oppress the working class.


2013/7/1 Sheldon Ranz 

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> As long as systems of oppression require a scapegoat to sustain themselves
> in times of crisis, appeals to anti-Semitism will come in handy. Old habits
> die hard.
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Einde O'Callaghan  >wrote:
>
> >
> ==**==**==
> > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> >
> ==**==**==
> >
> >
> > On 01.07.2013 20:12, Louis Proyect wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Anti-Semitism poses absolutely no danger anywhere in the world to Jews.
> >>
> >
> > I'm sorry to contradict you, Louis. the reports coming out of Hungary are
> > quite worrying. People are being beaten up in the streets for
> participating
> > in protests against desecrations of Jewish graves. While it's true that
> in
> > most of Western and Central Europe anti-Muslim politics and activities
> are
> > a greater threat the traditional fascist anti-Semitism is still a living
> > force. And even though most attacks by Golden Dawn in Greece are directed
> > against Muslim refugees and immigrants they also indulge in old-fashioned
> > anti-semitism too. I wouldn't be so sure that traditional anti-Semitism
> is
> > a spent force.
> >
> > Here in Germany the desecration of Jewish cemeteries and buildings is at
> > least as common as desecrations aimed at Muslim institutions and
> buildings.
> > Here in Chemnitz, where I live, a popular Jewsih restaurant was forced to
> > close because it became increasingly difficult to get insurance coverage
> > because it was damaged so regularly by drunken (and not so drunken)
> Nazis.
> > An Arab restaurant in the same street had far fewer problems.
> >
> > Einde O'Callaghan
> >
> >
> > __**__
> > Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.edu<
> Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu>
> > Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.**
> > utah.edu/mailman/options/**marxism/sranz18%40gmail.com<
> http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/sranz18%40gmail.com
> >
> >
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
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>



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Sheldon Ranz]

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As long as systems of oppression require a scapegoat to sustain themselves
in times of crisis, appeals to anti-Semitism will come in handy. Old habits
die hard.


On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Einde O'Callaghan wrote:

> ==**==**==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==**==**==
>
>
> On 01.07.2013 20:12, Louis Proyect wrote:
>
>>
>> Anti-Semitism poses absolutely no danger anywhere in the world to Jews.
>>
>
> I'm sorry to contradict you, Louis. the reports coming out of Hungary are
> quite worrying. People are being beaten up in the streets for participating
> in protests against desecrations of Jewish graves. While it's true that in
> most of Western and Central Europe anti-Muslim politics and activities are
> a greater threat the traditional fascist anti-Semitism is still a living
> force. And even though most attacks by Golden Dawn in Greece are directed
> against Muslim refugees and immigrants they also indulge in old-fashioned
> anti-semitism too. I wouldn't be so sure that traditional anti-Semitism is
> a spent force.
>
> Here in Germany the desecration of Jewish cemeteries and buildings is at
> least as common as desecrations aimed at Muslim institutions and buildings.
> Here in Chemnitz, where I live, a popular Jewsih restaurant was forced to
> close because it became increasingly difficult to get insurance coverage
> because it was damaged so regularly by drunken (and not so drunken) Nazis.
> An Arab restaurant in the same street had far fewer problems.
>
> Einde O'Callaghan
>
>
> __**__
> Send list submissions to: 
> Marxism@greenhouse.economics.**utah.edu
> Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.**
> utah.edu/mailman/options/**marxism/sranz18%40gmail.com
>

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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Einde O'Callaghan]

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On 01.07.2013 20:12, Louis Proyect wrote:


Anti-Semitism poses absolutely no danger anywhere in the world to Jews.


I'm sorry to contradict you, Louis. the reports coming out of Hungary 
are quite worrying. People are being beaten up in the streets for 
participating in protests against desecrations of Jewish graves. While 
it's true that in most of Western and Central Europe anti-Muslim 
politics and activities are a greater threat the traditional fascist 
anti-Semitism is still a living force. And even though most attacks by 
Golden Dawn in Greece are directed against Muslim refugees and 
immigrants they also indulge in old-fashioned anti-semitism too. I 
wouldn't be so sure that traditional anti-Semitism is a spent force.


Here in Germany the desecration of Jewish cemeteries and buildings is at 
least as common as desecrations aimed at Muslim institutions and 
buildings. Here in Chemnitz, where I live, a popular Jewsih restaurant 
was forced to close because it became increasingly difficult to get 
insurance coverage because it was damaged so regularly by drunken (and 
not so drunken) Nazis. An Arab restaurant in the same street had far 
fewer problems.


Einde O'Callaghan



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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Louis Proyect]

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Anti-Semitism poses absolutely no danger anywhere in the world to Jews. 
I only pointed out Putin's stupidity and that of the Iranian media to 
demonstrate how unfortunate it is for segments of the left to fawn over 
them as "anti-imperialist" allies. Of course, the real danger they pose 
is not to Jews, despite their rhetoric, but to socialists. Putin's 
knuckle-dragging comments about the Bolshie Jews was the perfect symbol 
of his stupidity, just as was Bashar al-Assad's overture to the BNP and 
the European right.



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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[mjs]

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> When we denounce anti-Semitism today, we are part of a proud tradition.

Or possibly beating a dead horse.





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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Suresh]

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Marla: As I repeatedly pointed out, Leftists and progressives could do well to 
put aside the excessive indulgence with Jewish race. I  feel, Judaism is just 
another religion among many others is the world. The Jewish people are in no 
way special as compared to the Arabs, the Maori of NZ or Gonds of India.If I 
start talking about the racial superiority of Hindu Brahmins, who obviously 
outnumber the Jews, I will be labelled as  racist and casteist (in the Indian 
context). In India, no progressive person tolerates such an exclusivity.
Vijaya Kumar Marla

Suresh: Well, frankly, Leftists and progressives do not put aside their 
excessive indulgent preoccupation with the Jewish race, which of course does 
not exist, because many of them identify as Jews. Alas, since they're secular, 
atheist, Marxists!

I mean, listen to the discussion on Marxmail. I have read, and rarely commented 
on, this maillist for over a decade. 

And I respect every major commentator here, including the lists founders. 

However, it is clear, that without any bias or prejudice, the Jewish issue 
elicits emotional responses that are incongruent with the rest of the Marxist 
line on here.

I read several figures put forth in the last couple of days the idea that, 
well, anti-Semitism is perhaps not as pronounced as Islamophobia or anti-Arab 
prejudice but it must be forthrightly combated in case it should ever emerge as 
a major problem again. Fine.

But I look in vain for a serious investigation of Jewish racism towards 
non-Jews. Zionism in Israel and the diaspora is not simply an imperialistic or 
nationalist ideology, for anyone who is paying attention, but it also includes 
as a major or even dominant component a belief in Jewish superiority. It takes 
a peculiar set of ideological blinkers to condemn Zionism without castigating 
its major component: Jewish bigotry against non-Jews. And yet, I'm sorry to 
say, and perhaps understandably given 20th century history, most Marxists 
refuse to address Jewish racism towards other supposed races (of course the 
whole race construct is a sham!).

When the day comes that Marxists are willing to address this issue Marla, they 
will find that Jewish racism is at least as severe an issue today as 
anti-Semitism. This should be apparent by now, given Middle Eastern history. 
Eventually, the international working class, free of the myth of national 
identity - including Jewish identity - will deal with this issue in a 
forthright fashion.

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Re: [Marxism] Guess who is a Jew

[Marla Vijaya kumar]

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As I repeatedly pointed out, Leftists and progressives could do well to put 
aside the excessive indulgence with Jewish race. I  feel, Judaism is just 
another religion among many others is the world. The Jewish people are in no 
way special as compared to the Arabs, the Maori of NZ or Gonds of India.
If I start talking about the racial superiority of Hindu Brahmins, who 
obviously outnumber the Jews, I will be labelled as  racist and casteist (in 
the Indian context). In India, no progressive person tolerates such an 
exclusivity.
Vijaya Kumar Marla

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