Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/2/18 4:27 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: When Salih Muslim talks of the "regime change project", he is not referring to the original uprising against Assad, but the attempt to use that uprising to instal a new government backed by Turkey and the West. He makes the point that such a government was likely to be repressive towards the Kurds. I have no idea why you and Nick can't simply come out and say that this guy keeps coming out with outrageous statements. You remind me of of Sarah Sanders trying to explain Donald Trump. In 2016, Sputnik ran an article titled "Russian Campaign Saved Syria From 'Becoming Part of New Ottoman Empire'": MOSCOW (Sputnik) — Russia's aerial campaign in Syria has reinforced Moscow's positions among other countries and contributed to the multipolarity in the world, Syria's Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) co-chairman Saleh Muslim told Sputnik. "The Russian campaign in Syria has strengthened country's positions in the world affairs. I believe, this was the end of the unipolar world. We can talk about multipolar world now," Muslim said. He added that Moscow's aerial campaign had also changed Washington's perception of terrorists, pushing the United States to change its stance with regard to several militant groups in the region. According to the PYD co-chairman, Russia's support of Syria prevented the Middle Eastern nation "from being cut into pieces and becoming a part of a new Ottoman Empire." --- This is just fucking outrageous. Russia was bombing hospitals, apartment buildings and helping to starve East Aleppo into submission in 2016. This guy has crappy politics. He is as slimy as the Socialist Equality Party or Moon of Alabama. I am for woman's emancipation and even utopian experiments. But this kind of shit makes me wonder how the PYD leadership can get a free pass from Graeber and the Greenleft. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Salih Muslim's statement that "many who were siding with the insurrection were coming from the mosques" was very unfortunate in its wording. But I think he was referring to the Islamist (and Sunni sectarian) politics of much of the rebel leadership. He said the goal of the PYD was a "democratic and secular state". The Islamists had a different goal, so they were not allies. When Salih Muslim talks of the "regime change project", he is not referring to the original uprising against Assad, but the attempt to use that uprising to instal a new government backed by Turkey and the West. He makes the point that such a government was likely to be repressive towards the Kurds. Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of mkaradjis . via Marxism Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 1:24:02 PM To: Chris Slee Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Sorry Nick, who wrote anything here to whitewash the Turkish state. Look, it is not a matter of one statement by Salih Muslim in 2013, repulsive as that one was. You need to deal with the fact that the PYD's decision to go its own entirely neutral "third way" from the very outset has been part of the problem, as well as the problems arising from Turkish pressure on the opposition and the opposition's own Arab nationalist background. PYD leader Salih Muslim admits that they effectively declared themselves neutral as early as mid-2011: “Regarding our position in the conflict, the Kurds in Syria had been fighting for our democratic rights in a country ruled by a dynastic and despotic regime. But a few months after the uprising we realized that many who were siding with the insurrection were coming from the mosques and we thought that those were not good travel companions for us.” http://kurdistantribune.com/2016/salih-muslim-time-has-proved-us-right/ Yes, thousands of Syrians were pouring out of mosques – one of the only safe places – and going to protest for democracy against Assad from the earliest days; it is immensely sectarian (in the political sense) to see all these people as your enemies “a few months” into the uprising, as if every worshipper protesting for democracy and freedom is a crazed jihadist. In an interview back in 2011, Salih Muslim (who was curiously allowed back into Syria by Assad, following years of exile), also used familiar Assadist tropes in defining the uprising as a western “regime change” operation: “As PYD, we believe that the international plan asking for a change in Syria is not in favor of the peoples … In return for assuming the leading role on Syria, Turkey received compromises by the West on suppressing the Syrian Kurds. One of the major reasons of the regime change project in Syria was to eliminate the Kurdish” (PYD Lideri Salih Müslim ile Röportaj, “Suriye’de Kürtler yol haritası çıkartıyor”, Firat News Agency, 12 September 2011, cited in http://www.todayszaman.com/todays-think-tanks_syrias-pkk-game_271361.html). Then there were the PYD attacks on Kurdish anti-Assad demonstrations, beginning in Afrin in February 2012. I quoted from Burning Country on this in a recent post. here is another report: “On February 3, 2012, organized attacks by sympathizers of the Democratic Union Party (PYD) injured at least 17 people in ʿAfrin. Armed PYD supporters surrounded approximately three hundred supporters of the Kurdish Patriotic Conference as they were gathering for a dissident demonstration. The PYD demanded that the demonstrators walk behind their flag. When the demonstrators refused and chanted “Azadî” (“Freedom”), they were attacked with billy clubs, knives, chains, and guns. … Syrian security forces did not intervene. Numerous demonstrators were brought to the hospital—however, some of them could not be treated as the PYD also continued its attacks there.” http://kurdwatch.org/en/interview8/html?aid=2449&z=en According to the same report, five demonstrations took place the same day in al-Qamishli. The regime arrested several people, but also “during the demonstration in al-Antariyah, PYD thugs attacked activists who were filming the protests with the explanation that only employees of the PKK stations
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Another "supposed damning fact" to add to Nick's list: the claim that Salih Muslim called for the expulsion of Arabs, when on many occasions he said the exact opposite. This false claim was included in Burning Country, which is on the whole a good account of the Syrian revolution, but which is biased against the PYD (probably because of misinformation supplied to the authors by political opponents of the PYD). http://links.org.au/node/4679/ Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of Nick Fredman via Marxism Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2018 7:53:16 AM To: Chris Slee Cc: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Michael has missed the point that my comment was about the actual subject line of this thread: Juan Cole, who David Graeber shows is systematically demonizing the PKK and PYD and systematically whitewashing the Turkish state. I think the egregious and clearly conscious nature of Cole’s distortions in this regard is very significant, much more than making a big deal about a picture of what seems like a tiny number of people in Afrin holding pictures of Assad. More generally I’m all for an evidenced-based and critical view of the DFNS, Syria and any other topic. That’s why, as well as paying attention to the totality of the views and currents of the Apoist current and not just convenient snippets, I’ve paid attention to independent writers who’ve spent time in Rojava and interviewed numerous people there, such as Anna Flach, Michael Knapp and Ercan Ayboga (the Revolution in Rojava book and many articles), UK socialist feminist Rahila Gupta, and Dutch journalists Wladimir Wildenberg and Frederike Geerdink, as well as David Graeber. Such people haven’t been useful idiots but critical analysts: Gupta has criticised the somewhat odd Apoist analysis of women’s oppression and blind eye to questions of sexuality and Graeber has pointed out the likely contradictions ahead of purposefully building a dual-power type political structure. It’s also why I’ve pointed out on this list and elsewhere that’s there’s some dubious “critiques” of and supposed damning facts about the Rojava revolution that some of the left have spread about in an uncritical kneejerk fashion. Off the top of my head these include: * The view that Rojava was handed over in a secret deal, rather than seized in the popular uprising that’s been described by eyewitnesses (ironically enough this bit of folk lore is repeated by Graeber in the article of the subject line here); * The assertion by Assad a few years ago that he’s armed the YPG/J, and has the documents to prove it, they’re laying around somewhere...; * Roy Gutman’s laughable “expose” articles (from Istanbul not Rojava), the only two non-anonymous sources in which soon after criticising his distortion of their views; * The clearly doctored smudgy long-shot photos and brief video clips of YPG and SAA flags flying together in Aleppo; * And now, taking a pic of a tiny number of unknown people as representive of the views of a movement, rather than the clearly stated views of that movement. So I’ll take Michael’s points and references on board but I won’t uncritically accept the veracity of the claims made without checking them or uncritically accept his interpretations. On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 at 1:24 pm, mkaradjis . wrote: > Sorry Nick, who wrote anything here to whitewash the Turkish state. > Look, it is not a matter of one statement by Salih Muslim in 2013, > repulsive as that one was. You need to deal with the fact that the > PYD's decision to go its own entirely neutral "third way" from the > very outset has been part of the problem, as well as the problems > arising from Turkish pressure on the opposition and the opposition's > own Arab nationalist background. > > PYD leader Salih Muslim admits that they effectively declared > themselves neutral as early as mid-2011: > > “Regarding our position in the conflict, the Kurds in Syria had been > fighting for our democratic rights in a country ruled by a dynastic > and despotic regime. But a few months after the uprising we realized > th
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Michael has missed the point that my comment was about the actual subject line of this thread: Juan Cole, who David Graeber shows is systematically demonizing the PKK and PYD and systematically whitewashing the Turkish state. I think the egregious and clearly conscious nature of Cole’s distortions in this regard is very significant, much more than making a big deal about a picture of what seems like a tiny number of people in Afrin holding pictures of Assad. More generally I’m all for an evidenced-based and critical view of the DFNS, Syria and any other topic. That’s why, as well as paying attention to the totality of the views and currents of the Apoist current and not just convenient snippets, I’ve paid attention to independent writers who’ve spent time in Rojava and interviewed numerous people there, such as Anna Flach, Michael Knapp and Ercan Ayboga (the Revolution in Rojava book and many articles), UK socialist feminist Rahila Gupta, and Dutch journalists Wladimir Wildenberg and Frederike Geerdink, as well as David Graeber. Such people haven’t been useful idiots but critical analysts: Gupta has criticised the somewhat odd Apoist analysis of women’s oppression and blind eye to questions of sexuality and Graeber has pointed out the likely contradictions ahead of purposefully building a dual-power type political structure. It’s also why I’ve pointed out on this list and elsewhere that’s there’s some dubious “critiques” of and supposed damning facts about the Rojava revolution that some of the left have spread about in an uncritical kneejerk fashion. Off the top of my head these include: * The view that Rojava was handed over in a secret deal, rather than seized in the popular uprising that’s been described by eyewitnesses (ironically enough this bit of folk lore is repeated by Graeber in the article of the subject line here); * The assertion by Assad a few years ago that he’s armed the YPG/J, and has the documents to prove it, they’re laying around somewhere...; * Roy Gutman’s laughable “expose” articles (from Istanbul not Rojava), the only two non-anonymous sources in which soon after criticising his distortion of their views; * The clearly doctored smudgy long-shot photos and brief video clips of YPG and SAA flags flying together in Aleppo; * And now, taking a pic of a tiny number of unknown people as representive of the views of a movement, rather than the clearly stated views of that movement. So I’ll take Michael’s points and references on board but I won’t uncritically accept the veracity of the claims made without checking them or uncritically accept his interpretations. On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 at 1:24 pm, mkaradjis . wrote: > Sorry Nick, who wrote anything here to whitewash the Turkish state. > Look, it is not a matter of one statement by Salih Muslim in 2013, > repulsive as that one was. You need to deal with the fact that the > PYD's decision to go its own entirely neutral "third way" from the > very outset has been part of the problem, as well as the problems > arising from Turkish pressure on the opposition and the opposition's > own Arab nationalist background. > > PYD leader Salih Muslim admits that they effectively declared > themselves neutral as early as mid-2011: > > “Regarding our position in the conflict, the Kurds in Syria had been > fighting for our democratic rights in a country ruled by a dynastic > and despotic regime. But a few months after the uprising we realized > that many who were siding with the insurrection were coming from the > mosques and we thought that those were not good travel companions for > us.” > http://kurdistantribune.com/2016/salih-muslim-time-has-proved-us-right/ > > Yes, thousands of Syrians were pouring out of mosques – one of the > only safe places – and going to protest for democracy against Assad > from the earliest days; it is immensely sectarian (in the political > sense) to see all these people as your enemies “a few months” into the > uprising, as if every worshipper protesting for democracy and freedom > is a crazed jihadist. > > In an interview back in 2011, Salih Muslim (who was curiously allowed > back into Syria by Assad, following years of exile), also used > familiar Assadist tropes in defining the uprising as a western “regime > change” operation: > > “As PYD, we believe that the international plan asking for a change in > Syria is not in favor of the peoples … In return for assuming the > leading role on Syria, Turkey received compromises by the West on > suppressing the Syrian Kurds. One of the major reasons of the regime > change project in Syria was to eliminate the Kurdish” (PYD Lideri > Salih Müslim ile Röportaj,
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Sorry Nick, who wrote anything here to whitewash the Turkish state. Look, it is not a matter of one statement by Salih Muslim in 2013, repulsive as that one was. You need to deal with the fact that the PYD's decision to go its own entirely neutral "third way" from the very outset has been part of the problem, as well as the problems arising from Turkish pressure on the opposition and the opposition's own Arab nationalist background. PYD leader Salih Muslim admits that they effectively declared themselves neutral as early as mid-2011: “Regarding our position in the conflict, the Kurds in Syria had been fighting for our democratic rights in a country ruled by a dynastic and despotic regime. But a few months after the uprising we realized that many who were siding with the insurrection were coming from the mosques and we thought that those were not good travel companions for us.” http://kurdistantribune.com/2016/salih-muslim-time-has-proved-us-right/ Yes, thousands of Syrians were pouring out of mosques – one of the only safe places – and going to protest for democracy against Assad from the earliest days; it is immensely sectarian (in the political sense) to see all these people as your enemies “a few months” into the uprising, as if every worshipper protesting for democracy and freedom is a crazed jihadist. In an interview back in 2011, Salih Muslim (who was curiously allowed back into Syria by Assad, following years of exile), also used familiar Assadist tropes in defining the uprising as a western “regime change” operation: “As PYD, we believe that the international plan asking for a change in Syria is not in favor of the peoples … In return for assuming the leading role on Syria, Turkey received compromises by the West on suppressing the Syrian Kurds. One of the major reasons of the regime change project in Syria was to eliminate the Kurdish” (PYD Lideri Salih Müslim ile Röportaj, “Suriye’de Kürtler yol haritası çıkartıyor”, Firat News Agency, 12 September 2011, cited in http://www.todayszaman.com/todays-think-tanks_syrias-pkk-game_271361.html). Then there were the PYD attacks on Kurdish anti-Assad demonstrations, beginning in Afrin in February 2012. I quoted from Burning Country on this in a recent post. here is another report: “On February 3, 2012, organized attacks by sympathizers of the Democratic Union Party (PYD) injured at least 17 people in ʿAfrin. Armed PYD supporters surrounded approximately three hundred supporters of the Kurdish Patriotic Conference as they were gathering for a dissident demonstration. The PYD demanded that the demonstrators walk behind their flag. When the demonstrators refused and chanted “Azadî” (“Freedom”), they were attacked with billy clubs, knives, chains, and guns. … Syrian security forces did not intervene. Numerous demonstrators were brought to the hospital—however, some of them could not be treated as the PYD also continued its attacks there.” http://kurdwatch.org/en/interview8/html?aid=2449&z=en According to the same report, five demonstrations took place the same day in al-Qamishli. The regime arrested several people, but also “during the demonstration in al-Antariyah, PYD thugs attacked activists who were filming the protests with the explanation that only employees of the PKK stations Roj-TV and Ronahi-TV were allowed to make such recordings. Three activists suffered serious head injuries.” The rest of 2012 is a literal catalogue of PYD attacks on Kurdish anti-Assad demonstrations. Depending on the situation, the PYD sometimes organised its own anti-Assad demonstrations, while at other times it attempted to swap the anti-Assad slogans for demands that Ocalan be released and the like. Valid criticism is not "demonisation." Only blind romanticism leads to demonisation, which is why so many Rojava romantics often start spurning out the crudest Islamophobic nonsense about "head-choppers" as soon as any rebels out side Rojava are mentioned. Perhaps time for a more critical outlook. On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 1:06 PM, Nick Fredman via Marxism wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > Ok then we pretty much know for sure that at least 6 people in Afrin or > about 0.001% of the current population held up placards of Assad, and that > their reasons for doing so might have been influenced by what the former > leader of the PYD said about one regime attack
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Ok then we pretty much know for sure that at least 6 people in Afrin or about 0.001% of the current population held up placards of Assad, and that their reasons for doing so might have been influenced by what the former leader of the PYD said about one regime attack 5 years ago. I’m not sure though this is the most important point with regard to an article about how a well-known and avowedly leftist US academic is systematically demonizing the PKK and PYD and systematically whitewashing the Turkish state. On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 at 9:08 am, Louis Proyect wrote: > On 3/1/18 5:01 PM, Nick Fredman wrote: > > > > Louis uses “Kurds” for these placard holders when he does not know their > > ethnicity, or, more to the point if we don’t want to ape lazy, ignorant > > journalists in the bourgeois media, their political affiliations or > views. > > Maybe that's because my views were shaped by PYD leader Salih Muslim > calling the sarin gas attack in East Ghouta that cost the lives of more > than a thousand people a "false flag". Any leader capable of making such > a terrible statement is creating an atmosphere where it is entirely > plausible that his followers would hold pictures of the killer of those > people aloft. > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/1/18 5:01 PM, Nick Fredman wrote: Louis uses “Kurds” for these placard holders when he does not know their ethnicity, or, more to the point if we don’t want to ape lazy, ignorant journalists in the bourgeois media, their political affiliations or views. Maybe that's because my views were shaped by PYD leader Salih Muslim calling the sarin gas attack in East Ghouta that cost the lives of more than a thousand people a "false flag". Any leader capable of making such a terrible statement is creating an atmosphere where it is entirely plausible that his followers would hold pictures of the killer of those people aloft. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The NYT pic is fairly close up and only shows a handful of people. Speaking of Tim Anderson, his sidekick Jay Thapperal posted on Facebook some longer-view video stills from RT of the same or a similar event. He called this a “rally” but it looked more like a media scrum with a small number of placard holders. At any rate nothing remotely like the hundreds of thousands who’ve moblised against the invasion. Louis uses “Kurds” for these placard holders when he does not know their ethnicity, or, more to the point if we don’t want to ape lazy, ignorant journalists in the bourgeois media, their political affiliations or views. There’s plenty of Arabs in the SDF and active in the self-administration. There’s hundreds of thousands of Arab refugees who’ve been welcomed to Afrin. We don’t know whether these placard holders are possibly Ba’athist sympathesing Arabs, Kurdish, Arab or Assyrian PYD cadres, or a range of citizens who might be forgiven for seeing their proximal enemies as a nearby bunch of heavily-armed reactionary thugs who delight in the sexualised mutilation of prisoners. What we do know is the repeatedly stated position of the DFNS that Assad’s military intervention is minor and late-coming, that their cooperation is strictly military and limited, and the the regime is still “the regime”. E.g. as Chris might have already posted https://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article43197 On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 at 12:43 am, Louis Proyect via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > POSTING RULES & NOTES > #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. > #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. > * > > On 3/1/18 4:11 AM, Chris Slee wrote: > > d the broader Democratic Federation of Northern Syria. > > > > My point is not to denigrate the work of activists operating in very > difficult circumstances, under attack from both the Assad regime and > reactionary rebel groups, but rather to highlight the achievements of the > DFNS. > > But there is nothing in Greenleft about anybody like the 4 disappeared > activists. They still exist, after all. > > It is nothing but the Rojava fan club 24/7. 280 articles, for pete's > sake. I wouldn't mind this so much if at least there was an attempt to > engage with the reality that Kurds are now holding up portraits of > Bashar al-Assad as if they were at a rally organized by Tim Anderson. > _ > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > Set your options at: > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/nick.j.fredman%40gmail.com > _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * The picture with the Assad portraits was disconcerting, but I don't think we should give it too much significance. It happened when a pro-Assad militia unit arrived in Afrin to assist in the defence of the area against the Turkish invasion. I think that cooperation against the invasion is legitimate. But I recognise that there are dangers in this cooperation. If Afrin (and Rojava more broadly) becomes dependent on the Assad regime for its defence, it could lead to downplaying the struggle for democracy in Syria. But this is a reflection of the difficulty of making a revolution in a society under siege. Chrs Slee From: Louis Proyect Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 12:08:49 AM To: Chris Slee; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement On 3/1/18 4:11 AM, Chris Slee wrote: > d the broader Democratic Federation of Northern Syria. > > My point is not to denigrate the work of activists operating in very > difficult circumstances, under attack from both the Assad regime and > reactionary rebel groups, but rather to highlight the achievements of the > DFNS. But there is nothing in Greenleft about anybody like the 4 disappeared activists. They still exist, after all. It is nothing but the Rojava fan club 24/7. 280 articles, for pete's sake. I wouldn't mind this so much if at least there was an attempt to engage with the reality that Kurds are now holding up portraits of Bashar al-Assad as if they were at a rally organized by Tim Anderson. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 3/1/18 4:11 AM, Chris Slee wrote: d the broader Democratic Federation of Northern Syria. My point is not to denigrate the work of activists operating in very difficult circumstances, under attack from both the Assad regime and reactionary rebel groups, but rather to highlight the achievements of the DFNS. But there is nothing in Greenleft about anybody like the 4 disappeared activists. They still exist, after all. It is nothing but the Rojava fan club 24/7. 280 articles, for pete's sake. I wouldn't mind this so much if at least there was an attempt to engage with the reality that Kurds are now holding up portraits of Bashar al-Assad as if they were at a rally organized by Tim Anderson. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis Proyect says: "Waiting to see a single article since 2013 about the brutal siege of East Ghouta. Maybe if Assad left them alone, they'd have a chance to organize seminars on Murray Bookchin's writings and see the light." Assad is not the sole problem for democracy activists in eastern Ghouta. Reactionary armed groups control the area, and violently repress those who challenge their rule. Four prominent activists, Razan Zaitouneh, Wael Hamada, Nazem Hamadi and Samira Khalil, were abducted by armed men in December 2013 in the town of Douma in the eastern Ghouta area. They have not been seen since. They are believed to have been murdered by the Army of Islam, the strongest militia in the area. Yassin al-Haj Saleh refers to "the two-fold character of the battle imposed on Syrians: against the Assadist necktie fascists and against the Islamist long-bearded fascists." (Quoted in Burning Country, page x) I don't know if anyone in eastern Ghouta ever read Murray Bookchin's writings. But some residents of the area were certainly inspired by Omar Aziz, who advocated and worked for the formation of local councils. Aziz died in one of Assad's prisons. Walid Daou has written an article on "The experience of local councils in the Syrian revolution": http://www.al-manshour.org/node/7415 While supportive of the councils, Daou points out their "shortcomings...at least in terms of application." He says: "Armed groups remained outside the supervision of local councils. At the same time, the Syrian National Council, the Syrian interim government, and the National Coalition of Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition forces monopolized the "high political rhetoric." "Thus, the original idea behind the councils became meaningless. Under the hegemony of weapons and conditional funding, the space for council work closed up. Thus, the possibility of building an alternative, democratic authority from below, which could lead the revolution and speak in its name, was diminished." Another problem was the limited participation of women. According to Razan Ghazzawi: "Women and youth have very little representation in the ranks of either the local councils or the Syria National Coalition". https://www.opendemocracy.net/north-africa-west-asia/razan-ghazzawi/seeing-women-in-revolutionary-syria This contrasts with the role of women in Rojava and the broader Democratic Federation of Northern Syria. My point is not to denigrate the work of activists operating in very difficult circumstances, under attack from both the Assad regime and reactionary rebel groups, but rather to highlight the achievements of the DFNS. Chris Slee From: Louis Proyect Sent: Friday, 23 February 2018 11:37 AM To: Chris Slee; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement On 2/22/18 7:17 PM, Chris Slee wrote: > > > The FSA was never a single united organisation, so we can't speak of "the > FSA" doing anything. But Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label > "FSA", have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions. Reference, please. > We prioritise solidarity with the Rojava revolution because of its socially > progressive nature - women's rights, ethnic and religious inclusiveness etc. Waiting to see a single article since 2013 about the brutal siege of East Ghouta. Maybe if Assad left them alone, they'd have a chance to organize seminars on Murray Bookchin's writings and see the light. > > Turkish-backed groups committed war crimes in Aleppo too. See Amnesty > International report: > > https://www.amnesty.org.au/syria-armed-groups-war-crimes-aleppo/ Syria: Armed groups committing war crimes in Aleppo ...<https://www.amnesty.org.au/syria-armed-groups-war-crimes-aleppo/> www.amnesty.org.au Armed groups surrounding the Sheikh Maqsoud district of Aleppo have repeatedly carried out indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets. > Well, at least this Kurdish neighborhood had a non-aggression pact with Assad at the time or else it would have been hell to pay. Fortunately for the neighborhood, Russian and Syrian jets liquidated the jihadi threat to Murray Bookchin's anarchist experiment. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On a Syria solidarity list I made the following comment: "By the way, Graeber and Ocalan share a penchant for half-baked historical schemas, which can't help but skew their overall outlook and practice." I read a couple of Ocalan's books and was shocked at the amateurish nature of his analysis (including his bowdlerization of Engels), as well as the opportunistic proposal to negotiate with existing regimes, all justified with his slippery autonomy/confederalism proposal, which evades the question of state power. If it hasn't already been done, someone should draft a critique of Ocalanism as a theory. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/25/18 3:16 PM, Chris Slee wrote: Louis Proyect says I have been "seduced by Murray Bookchin's ideology". I have never read anything by Bookchin. Ocalan is widely recognized as being a disciple of Murray Bookchin, even from afar. Your review has a section on Democratic Confederalism, which Öcalan openly admits is based on Murray Bookchin's writings. You really have to begin engaging with Bookchin's theories if you still claim to be a Marxist. Bookchin was a fierce opponent of Marxism his entire life. Read his 1969 "Listen, Marxist!" to get an idea of where he is coming from: All the old crap of the thirties is coming back again—the shit about the "class line," the "role of the working class," the "trained cadres," the "vanguard party," and the "proletarian dictatorship." It's all back again, and in a more vulgarized form than ever. The Progressive Labor Party is not the only example, it is merely the worst. One smells the same shit in various offshoots of SDS, and in the Marxist and Socialist clubs on campuses, not to speak of the Trotskyist groups, the International Socialist Clubs, and Youth Against War and Fascism. That was us he was talking about, well at least me. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis Proyect says I have been "seduced by Murray Bookchin's ideology". I have never read anything by Bookchin. I have read some of Abdullah Ocalan's writings - see my review: http://links.org.au/understanding-abdullah-ocalan-political-thought-kurdistan-womans-revolution-democratic-confederalism/ But what impresses me is not so much his writings (of which I have some criticisms) as the movement inspired by his writings, which is fighting for women's rights, ethnic and religious equality, democracy etc. Of course, it is impossible to build socialism in one country, and still less in part of a country, and still less when under siege and subject to an invasion. The experiment may be crushed militarily or degenerate under pressure. But meanwhile solidarity is essential. Chris Slee _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/24/18 11:32 PM, Chris Slee wrote: Louis Proyect asks for a reference for my statement that: "Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label 'FSA', have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions." "Turkish-backed groups" include ISIS, which has obviously attacked Rojava. But Louis is probably asking about FSA groups. Several examples are given in the book "Revolution in Rojava", by Michael Knapp, Anja Flack and Ercan Ayboga (Pluto Press, 2016). Their most detailed account of conflict between the YPG and a section of the Free Syrian Army relates to events in Aleppo. While Aleppo is not part of Rojava, the Kurdish areas of Aleppo followed similar policies to those in Rojava. The attacks on the predominantly Kurdish Aleppo neighborhoods of Sex Maqsud (Sheikh Maqsoud) and Asrafiye by some Turkish-backed FSA groups reflect their hostility towards the Rojava revolution. "Revolution in Rojava" outlines the conflict as follows: "Both belligerents - the regime on one hand, and the FSA and other armed opposition groups on the other - pressured the YPG to take sides. "The FSA, flush with money from the Arab-Sunni Gulf states, began systematically buying up property in the Kurdish neighborhoodsFSA members took to carrying their weapons around outdoors - but the councils [local councils established in the Kurdish neighborhoods] took notice and demanded that they cease doing so. I am not going to bother finding instances of Kurdish bad behavior toward Arabs since that is a zero-sum game. At this point, the real question is what Rojava has to do with the tasks Marx outlined in the Communist Manifesto. You apparently have become seduced by Murray Bookchin's ideology that has as much connection to proletarian revolution as Proudhon's. Read the section "Socialist and Communist Literature" in the Communist Manifesto and remind yourself what Marx thought of Critical-Utopian Socialism and Communism. Years ago I wrote a commentary on utopian socialism that dealt with Bookchin and his rivals at ZNet and elsewhere. I doubt if it will have much impact on someone as intoxicated with Bookchin's muddled ideas as you but others might find it worth reading: http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/economics/neo_utopian.htm _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis Proyect asks for a reference for my statement that: "Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label 'FSA', have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions." "Turkish-backed groups" include ISIS, which has obviously attacked Rojava. But Louis is probably asking about FSA groups. Several examples are given in the book "Revolution in Rojava", by Michael Knapp, Anja Flack and Ercan Ayboga (Pluto Press, 2016). Their most detailed account of conflict between the YPG and a section of the Free Syrian Army relates to events in Aleppo. While Aleppo is not part of Rojava, the Kurdish areas of Aleppo followed similar policies to those in Rojava. The attacks on the predominantly Kurdish Aleppo neighborhoods of Sex Maqsud (Sheikh Maqsoud) and Asrafiye by some Turkish-backed FSA groups reflect their hostility towards the Rojava revolution. "Revolution in Rojava" outlines the conflict as follows: "Both belligerents - the regime on one hand, and the FSA and other armed opposition groups on the other - pressured the YPG to take sides. "The FSA, flush with money from the Arab-Sunni Gulf states, began systematically buying up property in the Kurdish neighborhoodsFSA members took to carrying their weapons around outdoors - but the councils [local councils established in the Kurdish neighborhoods] took notice and demanded that they cease doing so. "The councils also demanded that the FSA pull out of Sex Maqsud [Sheikh Maqsoud] toward Asrafiye. During Ramadan, on August 19 [2012], more than 3,000 people demonstrated in support of this demand. But the FSA didn't withdraw - instead it fired at the residents from buildings. The YPG fought back, and in the hours-long battle, 13 civilians and several FSA fighters were killed... "But this and other battles drove the FSA out of Sex Maqsud and AsrafiyeOver the next months, the FSA kept shooting into the two neighborhoods, but now from a distance. "Since the Kurds had not sided with the regime, the regime forces became increasingly brutal. The army intervened militarily, then began attacking with helicopters and planes, each time taking several lives. "The state shut down the electricityThere was a de facto food embargo "The Kurds' neutrality angered both sides, the state and the FSA, which escalated their attacks "In the summer and fall of 2013, the YPG defended Aleppo well, pushing back attacks by Islamic and other armed opposition groups, as well as parts of the FSAIn the spring of 2014, the YPG concluded a ceasefire with the FSA and other armed opposition groups. "Since early 2015, the self-governed parts of Aleppo have repeatedly come under attack from jihadists. The new coalition Jaish Al-Fatah, led by Al-Nusra (Al Qaeda) and heavily supported by Turkey, is continually trying to conquer the liberated parts of Aleppo, but the people of Sex Maqsud are maintaining their self-defence." (Revolution in Rojava, p. 100- 102) *** Here is a brief report on events in Serekaniye, a town on the Turkish border: "In November 2012, about 3,000 heavily armed jihadists - Al-Nusra and parts of the FSA , like the Syrian Islamic Liberation Front (SILF) - slipped over the Turkish-Syrian border at Ceylanpinar and attacked Serekaniye. The goal was to push on to Qamislo and bring down the self-government in Cizire. After four days of fighting, they occupied Serekaniye. The FSA touted the invasion as "the FSA's liberation of Ras Al-Ayn." But the "liberation" took the form of massacres, devastation and the radical application of Sharia law "In June 2013...the YPG/YPJ liberated Serekaniye and expelled Al-Nusra and the FSA." (Revolution in Rojava, p. 225) Chris Slee ________ From: Louis Proyect Sent: Friday, 23 February 2018 11:37:38 AM To: Chris Slee; Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement On 2/22/18 7:17 PM, Chris Slee wrote: > > > The FSA was never a single united organisation, so we can't speak of "the > FSA" doing anything. But Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label > "FSA", have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions. Reference, please. > We prioritise solidarity with the Rojava revolution because of its socially > progressive nature - women's rights, ethnic and religious inclusiveness
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/22/18 7:17 PM, Chris Slee wrote: The FSA was never a single united organisation, so we can't speak of "the FSA" doing anything. But Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label "FSA", have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions. Reference, please. We prioritise solidarity with the Rojava revolution because of its socially progressive nature - women's rights, ethnic and religious inclusiveness etc. Waiting to see a single article since 2013 about the brutal siege of East Ghouta. Maybe if Assad left them alone, they'd have a chance to organize seminars on Murray Bookchin's writings and see the light. Turkish-backed groups committed war crimes in Aleppo too. See Amnesty International report: https://www.amnesty.org.au/syria-armed-groups-war-crimes-aleppo/ Well, at least this Kurdish neighborhood had a non-aggression pact with Assad at the time or else it would have been hell to pay. Fortunately for the neighborhood, Russian and Syrian jets liquidated the jihadi threat to Murray Bookchin's anarchist experiment. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis Proyect quotes me: > On the other hand, the PYD - conscious of the oppression of Kurds in Turkey - > was right to be suspicious of any armed groups backed by Turkey and the Gulf > states. Turkish aid to Syrian rebels came with conditions attached, > including a requirement to be hostile to the Rojava experiment. He comments: "I have no idea what this means. Does anybody in their right mind think that the FSA was going to ethnically cleanse Rojava because Erdogan gave them AK-47s?" The FSA was never a single united organisation, so we can't speak of "the FSA" doing anything. But Turkish-backed groups, some of which use the label "FSA", have attacked Rojava on numerous occasions. Louis says: "You know something, Chris, I did a search in Greenleft Weekly yesterday. There is only a single reference to Ghouta from back in 2013 after a thousand died from Assad's sarin gas attack. The cretinous Tony Iltis wrote: "In the absence of evidence, propagandists for both sides have promoted conspiracy theories to explain the attack's motivation." WTF? Both sides?" But in the very next sentence, Tony Iltis says: "Assad would seem to be the most likely culprit. His forces are known to possess chemical weapons and the civilian casualties were in an opposition-held suburb." https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/syria-us-war-drive-halted-now He explains his caution in drawing a definite conclusion as follows: "It is very possible that Assad carried out the sarin attack on August 21. However, the public has not forgotten that the US and other Western governments and intelligence agencies faked evidence that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction as a pretext for invasion in 2003. " At that time such caution was understandable. Today, following the Khan Sheikhoun attack, I personally have no doubt that the Assad regime did it. Louis continues: "But when you search for "Rojava", you get ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX ARTICLES." We prioritise solidarity with the Rojava revolution because of its socially progressive nature - women's rights, ethnic and religious inclusiveness etc. Louis continues: "And when you wrote about the horrendous assault on Aleppo by Assad, you once again used the plague on both your houses bullshit. The Socialist Alliance issued a statement that included this: "The proliferation of armed groups not subject to democratic civilian control has been a major contributor to Syrians’ suffering." What does that mean? That Islamist groups incited Syrian and Russian jets to bomb hospitals? I have heard the same junk from Netanyahu after the IDF bombed Gaza." Turkish-backed groups committed war crimes in Aleppo too. See Amnesty International report: https://www.amnesty.org.au/syria-armed-groups-war-crimes-aleppo/ Chris Slee ________ From: Marxism on behalf of Louis Proyect via Marxism Sent: Thursday, 22 February 2018 10:17:56 AM To: Chris Slee Subject: Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/21/18 5:28 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: > On the other hand, the PYD - conscious of the oppression of Kurds in Turkey - > was right to be suspicious of any armed groups backed by Turkey and the Gulf > states. Turkish aid to Syrian rebels came with conditions attached, > including a requirement to be hostile to the Rojava experiment. I have no idea what this means. Does anybody in their right mind think that the FSA was going to ethnically cleanse Rojava because Erdogan gave them AK-47s? You know something, Chris, I did a search in Greenleft Weekly yesterday. There is only a single reference to Ghouta from back in 2013 after a thousand died from Assad's sarin gas attack. The cretinous Tony Iltis wrote: "In the absence of evidence, propagandists for both sides have promoted conspiracy theories to explain the attack's motivation." WTF? Both sides? But when you search for "Rojava", you get ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX ARTICLES. And when you wrote about the horrendous assault on Aleppo by Assad, you once again used the plagu
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/21/18 5:28 PM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: On the other hand, the PYD - conscious of the oppression of Kurds in Turkey - was right to be suspicious of any armed groups backed by Turkey and the Gulf states. Turkish aid to Syrian rebels came with conditions attached, including a requirement to be hostile to the Rojava experiment. I have no idea what this means. Does anybody in their right mind think that the FSA was going to ethnically cleanse Rojava because Erdogan gave them AK-47s? You know something, Chris, I did a search in Greenleft Weekly yesterday. There is only a single reference to Ghouta from back in 2013 after a thousand died from Assad's sarin gas attack. The cretinous Tony Iltis wrote: "In the absence of evidence, propagandists for both sides have promoted conspiracy theories to explain the attack's motivation." WTF? Both sides? But when you search for "Rojava", you get ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY SIX ARTICLES. And when you wrote about the horrendous assault on Aleppo by Assad, you once again used the plague on both your houses bullshit. The Socialist Alliance issued a statement that included this: "The proliferation of armed groups not subject to democratic civilian control has been a major contributor to Syrians’ suffering." What does that mean? That Islamist groups incited Syrian and Russian jets to bomb hospitals? I have heard the same junk from Netanyahu after the IDF bombed Gaza. I was happy you all dropped the Leninist nonsense. I only wish that you would also drop the kind of cheer-leading that is typical of sect formations. _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * Louis Proyect quotes David Graeber: "While in the early days of the Syrian revolution, Arab communities too created directly democratic councils, many on a model inspired by a Syrian anarchist named Omar Aziz, the militarization of the conflict had very different effects; where in the Kurdish areas, the revolutionaries created their own militias, the Peoples Protection Forces (YPG) and the Women's Protection Forces (YPJ), most of the secular, left revolutionary organizations in the rest of Syria made a conscious decision not to join the armed struggle, leaving that to military defectors who made up the Free Syrian Army, then, increasingly, to Islamist militias armed and supplied by outside powers such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar." Louis comments: "What unmitigated bullshit. The "secular, left revolutionary organizations" in the rest of Syria focused on providing social services to neighborhoods and entire cities under siege. To help keep them from being annihilated, the FSA defended them as best they could. "In fact, if it wasn't for the FSA, these Bookchinite experiments could never have happened since Assad was trying to buy time. He allowed them to take place until his air force was finished exterminating East Aleppo, Homs, Ghouta, et al. Now, he will do the same thing to the Kurds. Divide and conquer..." I will concede that Graeber's statement quoted above does not adequately recognise the difficult conditions facing democracy activists in areas under attack by Assad's forces. Hence he gives the unfortunate impression of blaming the activists for the situation they find themselves in. I don't think that was necessarily his intention, but it could be taken that way. On the other hand, the PYD - conscious of the oppression of Kurds in Turkey - was right to be suspicious of any armed groups backed by Turkey and the Gulf states. Turkish aid to Syrian rebels came with conditions attached, including a requirement to be hostile to the Rojava experiment. For a time, Rojava was less affected by war than some other parts of Syria. But this should not be exaggerated. Rojava was subject to an economic blockade, armed attacks by Turkish-backed rebel groups, bombardments by the Turkish armed forces, and the threat of a full scale Turkish invasion. In this context, Rojava (and later the broader Democratic Federation of Northern Syria) sought to avoid armed conflict with the Assad regime. They did not want to simultaneously fight both the Turkish army (and its proxies) and the Assad regime (and its allies). Chris Slee From: Marxism on behalf of Chris Slee via Marxism Sent: Tuesday, 20 February 2018 10:58:05 PM To: Chris Slee Subject: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * http://www.focaalblog.com/2018/02/16/david-graeber-manufactured-ignorance/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/chris_w_slee%40hotmail.com _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * On 2/20/18 6:58 AM, Chris Slee via Marxism wrote: http://www.focaalblog.com/2018/02/16/david-graeber-manufactured-ignorance/ Graeber: "While in the early days of the Syrian revolution, Arab communities too created directly democratic councils, many on a model inspired by a Syrian anarchist named Omar Aziz, the militarization of the conflict had very different effects; where in the Kurdish areas, the revolutionaries created their own militias, the People’s Protection Forces (YPG) and the Women’s Protection Forces (YPJ), most of the secular, left revolutionary organizations in the rest of Syria made a conscious decision not to join the armed struggle, leaving that to military defectors who made up the Free Syrian Army, then, increasingly, to Islamist militias armed and supplied by outside powers such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar." What unmitigated bullshit. The "secular, left revolutionary organizations" in the rest of Syria focused on providing social services to neighborhoods and entire cities under siege. To help keep them from being annihilated, the FSA defended them as best they could. In fact, if it wasn't for the FSA, these Bookchinite experiments could never had happened since Assad was trying to buy time. He allowed them to take place until his air force was finished exterminating East Aleppo, Homs, Ghouta, et al. Now, he will do the same thing to the Kurds. Divide and conquer... _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] David Graeber: manufactured ignorance: the strange case of Juan Cole and the Kurdish freedom movement
POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. * http://www.focaalblog.com/2018/02/16/david-graeber-manufactured-ignorance/ _ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com