Re: MD: DCC?
On 6 Jun 01, %l:28PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: You are mistaken if you believe that there is a 1,411,200Hz square wave stored on a DAT. All that is there is ones and zeros, which do form a square wave if you treated it as something audible (which it isn't) with an effective frequency some twice that (~2,862,311.5Hz if I did the math right). that's what i'm saying. effectively, the dat recording head (which is fundamentally still just a magnet, like a cassette recording head) stores what in analog audio would be a very high frequency square wave on the tape. this requires a different mechanism than a simple analog recording head, which could never hope to represent such a high frequency wave, but has no trouble with 10,000Hz. thus the need for rotation of smaller heads, or compression, or SOMETHING to increase the bandwidth to/from the tape. i don't want to go back forth on the list more about this; feel free to respond in email. take care peter - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Go into Soundforge and make a blank wave file that's 76 minutes long, and then make any other 76 minute wave full of any type of song, or sounds you want. In 44.1 khz, 16-bit they still take up about 650. And that's exactly the proof! If you make a file in Soundforge of 76 minutes long in 44.1khz and 16bits, it'll be about 650 MB big. Try storing a square-wave of 20khz into this file. It will get converted into a cosin-wave due to the fack that you can't score any frequenties beyond 22.05khz in this file! Or beter said, there is no room in the file to store this wave-form! What other proof do you want? It's a simple mathematical fact that a square-wave uses more space than a cosin-wave of the same frequentie. Cheers, Ralph - who was maybee to technical in the first respons. -- === Ralph SmeetsFunctional Verification Centre Of Competence - CMG Voice: (+33) (0)4 76 58 44 46 STMicroelectronics Fax:(+33) (0)4 76 58 40 11 5, chem de la Dhuy Mobile: (+33) (0)6 82 66 62 70 38240 MEYLAN E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FRANCE === For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the powers of our imagination: We learned to talk. -- Stephen Hawking, later used by Pink Floyd -- === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: DCC?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === From: Stainless Steel Rat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] * Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 06 Jun 2001 | On a CD the laser is reflected off the disc, onto a photodiode which | produces four analogue voltages. These are then used to perform tracking | and linear speed adjustments, and are also processed to produce the | digital data. The signals could just as easily be used to produce an | analogue audio signal. Could, but they are not. And though what is there could be interpreted as an analog signal, it really isn't. Consider this: I whisper one. I shout one. Has the value of one changed? My voice is analog, but the spoken signal is still digital. If it wasn't really an analogue signal, there would be no need for error correction coding. In practise, the analogue signal is converted into soft decisions which vary from zero, through zero-ish, one-ish, to one. These are then fed into the error corrector, which uses the redundancy introduced into the data to estimate the most likely sequence of data bits. Continuing your analogy, if you whisper 'one' but I can't hear what you say, I have to make a guess on whether you said 'one' or 'zero'. The source data is digital, but the signal after the effects of the channel are considered is analogue, and must be converted back into a digital representation. [...] | No. The advantage of CD and MD against vinyl and tape is that they do not | wear out. The fact that the former are digital and the latter analogue is | co-incidental. DCC and DAT both wear out yet are digital. And are insignificant to consumers. | Laser discs were entirely analogue and do not. Actually, they do. And the format is (was) insignificant to consumers, too. My point was not what was significant to consumers but rather that it is a property medium, and not the format of the data stored on it, that determines whether wear occurs. | Admittedly, due to the error correction, digital recordings will handle | wear better for a while before failing completely where as analogue | recordings deteriorate more gradually, but it is the medium that | determines whether wear occurs. Well, if you want to insist on picking nits, then consider this: microphone in to a solid state deck, real-time conversion to MPEG-1 Layer III audio, and stored on compact flash cards. No analog storage involved anywhere. The bits are stored by tunnelling electrons through the oxide layer, generating a potential on the floating gate. That potential is analogue - though, if you want to get pedantic, quantised. The real world is analogue and, hence, all data stored in the real world is stored in an analogue form. It's all a bit academic, though. [...] | I'm not sure that I understand the point that you are trying to make here. My point is that the original post making the claim that, paraphrased, digital takes more space to store than analog because square waves take up more space, is wrong. I can't argue with that being faulty logic. In the general case, uncompressed digital signals take more space to store than the analogue signal that they represent. However, if you just wanted to store square(ish) waves, it would require much more bandwidth to store them in an analogue manner than digitally. The key is that it is wrong to think of digital as storing things as square waves. S. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
* Robert J. Lynn Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, 07 Jun 2001 | A. Maybe the bits are stored on a carrier wave? Like a T1, per se. This would require modulation, like the old C64 and Apple ][ tapes. And yes, doing so would require some very high frequency square waves. Maybe DCC does that, but DAT certainly doesn't because it is an inefficient storage method. | B. Maybe the bits arent recorded as waves. Just magnetic blips. Whereas this is what is really happening. The blips can be played as an audible signal, but chances are you'll break something if you do that (like your speakers or ears). -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === Nah, it'll probably just sound like white noise, right? -Rob - Original Message - From: Stainless Steel Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MD-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 11:38 AM Subject: Re: MD: DCC? * Robert J. Lynn Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, 07 Jun 2001 | A. Maybe the bits are stored on a carrier wave? Like a T1, per se. This would require modulation, like the old C64 and Apple ][ tapes. And yes, doing so would require some very high frequency square waves. Maybe DCC does that, but DAT certainly doesn't because it is an inefficient storage method. | B. Maybe the bits arent recorded as waves. Just magnetic blips. Whereas this is what is really happening. The blips can be played as an audible signal, but chances are you'll break something if you do that (like your speakers or ears). -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
* Robert J. Lynn Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Thu, 07 Jun 2001 | Nah, it'll probably just sound like white noise, right? Ever try playing a CD-ROM in an audio CD player? Assuming it is possible to play a data cartridge in an audio deck (which I cannot confirm), the potential noise could be much worse. You could ruin your speakers doing that. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Square waves taking more space. Just plain BS. The shape of a wave has no bearing whatsoever on how much space is required to store it. DDS-2 and DDS-3 (two of the DAT data standards) have nearly identically length tapes (120m vs. 125m), and have the same linear speed over the heads. DDS-3 has three times the storage capacity as DDS-2. Clearly, speed is not a contributing factor to data density. Depending on the methode used to store a square wave, you'll need less or more bits. It also depends on the sampling frequentie and the base-frequency of the squarewave. A squarewave can be described as an addition of an infinitive number of cosinus waves. Since all digital sampling devices store information on the frequentie and the amplitude of the samples (this is the base of the discrete digital systems like CD/DAT/MD/DCC), you'll see that you need a lot of space to store a squarewave accuratly. So the statement is true and is absolutly no 'plain BS' since the shape of a wave defines how much space is required to store it. I'll here a lot of people now saying, hey, hold on, if I sample somthing it gives me a presentation of numbers which represent just amplitudes in time and each waveform produces the same number of samples. So what is Ralph talking about? And that's where most people go wrong when thing about digital signals. Therefore a simple question: What does a single sample represent? Yes? Found it? Right, nothing! Yes, you've read that right, a single sample represents nothing! Another question: What does a series of samples represent? You'll possible think that they represent a collection waves of a certain altitude and a certain frequency that are described by a series of samples. But there you wrong. A series of samples describes all the frequencies with their amplitude (which can be zero). So if you change the storage methode: samples - frequencies/amplitudes, the waveform actually makes a big difference in how much space is required! Cheers, Ralph - who was still lurking... -- === Ralph SmeetsFunctional Verification Centre Of Competence - CMG Voice: (+33) (0)4 76 58 44 46 STMicroelectronics Fax:(+33) (0)4 76 58 40 11 5, chem de la Dhuy Mobile: (+33) (0)6 82 66 62 70 38240 MEYLAN E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] FRANCE === For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then something happened which unleashed the powers of our imagination: We learned to talk. -- Stephen Hawking, later used by Pink Floyd -- === - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: DCC?
* Peter Jaques [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tue, 05 Jun 2001 | for uncompressed 16 bit stereo pcm, you're essentially dealing with a | square wave of 16 bits/channel * 2 channels * 44100 Hz = 1411200 Hz. | that's extremely high to just spit onto what is mechanically no different | from a metal cassette. The highest frequency that 16-bit PCM can achieve is 22.01kHz, and is represented by 16 on bits plus the frame. Those 16 on bits take up exactly the same ammount of space as one frame of dead silence, 16 off bits. Frequency has no direct relevance to how much space is required to store the signal, only resolution of the sampling. I have a been lurking on this list for a while, but I feel that I must correct something that is just, plain wrong. The value of one sample gives only amplitude information, and no frequency information. For that you need multiple samples as it is the differences between samples that contains the frequency information. If each sample is treated as signed number, the sequence of samples ..., +n, -n, +n, -n, ... represents a sine wave at half the sample frequency, i.e. 22.01kHz for a 44.1kHz sample rate. The value of n determines the amplitude, i.e. volume, of the sound. Secondly, the frequency DOES have a very definite relevance to the space required to store the signal, though, as the original poster was saying, it is the sample frequency that matters, not the signal frequency. Having said that, the bandwidth required to store the signal is actually determined by the symbol rate, and not the bit rate, per se. So, 1.4Mb/s could be stored with 0.7Mhz bandwidth if two bits were stored per symbol. The problem with the calculation in the original post was that you can't store the raw data without some kind of error correction because digital distortion - i.e. bit errors - sounds BAAAD, and this adds an overhead. However, although the bandwidth required is much higher than analogue sources - even when compression is used, the signal-to-noise ratio of CD/MD (caused by quantisation noise) is so high that the limit is usually in the analogue stages used to reproduce it. The wow, flutter, hiss, popping, cracks, etc. of the various analogue systems is often easily perceptible on even modest systems. OK, I'll get off my high horse now, Steve. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
* Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 06 Jun 2001 | it is the sample frequency that matters, not the signal frequency. How is this different from my point about resolution back at the beginning of this? Fact is, at any given sampling frequency, storage capacity is constant regardless of what is being recorded. By way of practical example, MD-74 stores 74 minutes of audio, whether that is total silence, the loudest heavy metal, a perfect sine wave, square wave, sawtooth, or anything else you care to record. If the resolution of the recording were to be increased to 24 bits, the capacity of the disc would be proportinally reduced. Saying that digital recordings require more space than analog is just plain wrong. The two are totally different. Comparing the two is like comparing a really nice cheese omlette and a Shelby Cobra GT350. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: DCC?
Saying that digital recordings require more space than analog is just plain wrong. The two are totally different. Comparing the two is like comparing a really nice cheese omlette and a Shelby Cobra GT350. I see no reason why you cannot compare the bandwidth and/or space requirements of digital and analogue recordings. Given that all recordings are ultimately stored as an analogue form, someone must have compared the possibilities for using that form to store the recording in an analogue manner against adding the complexity of a digital system. Of course, the advantage of digital audio is that it is more easily possible to remove the noise introduced by the medium - albeit at the expense of adding redundancy and the introduction of quantisation noise - and the ability to process, e.g. compress, the sound allowing trade-offs between the different aspects of the recording - signal-to-noise, non-harmonic distortions and various psycho-acoustic aspects of the recording. The real issue is how you compare the quality of a recording - as the quality needs to be the same to compare the bandwidth requirements - but I am given to understand that, to achieve recording of the same perceived quality, PCM - whether linear or non-linear - will require a greater bandwidth than to record directly in analogue. It's just a lot easier to improve the perceived quality of the digital recording if you are able to throw more bandwidth at the problem or use a whizzy compression algorithm. However, also as I understand it, even with the work that has been done in the field of compression, it is only codecs that make assumptions about the source, e.g. speech codecs, that can better the bandwidth required by analogue. Given that both medium and sensor (our ears) are analogue, I guess that this should not be a surprise. Steve. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
* Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 06 Jun 2001 | I see no reason why you cannot compare the bandwidth and/or space | requirements of digital and analogue recordings. Given that all recordings | are ultimately stored as an analogue form, You are assuming that digital signals are modulated into analog signals for recording, like on your old C64 (which ammounts to recording the noises a telephone modem makes and playing them back later). There is no such modulation involved with digital audio storage. | someone must have compared the possibilities for using that form to store | the recording in an analogue manner against adding the complexity of a | digital system. You mean like CD-Video? (not VCD). | Of course, the advantage of digital audio is that it is more easily | possible to remove the noise introduced by the medium - albeit at the | expense of adding redundancy and the introduction of quantisation noise - [snip] The advantage of digital audio is that as far as consumers are concerned it does not wear out. | - but I am given to understand that, to achieve recording of the same | perceived quality, PCM - whether linear or non-linear | - will require a greater bandwidth than to record directly in analogue. And yet, the fact remains that when analog recordings are made on digital media like Compact Discs, the effective capacity of the media is significantly reduced compared to its equivalent digital counterparts. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ of skin. PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: DCC?
From: Stainless Steel Rat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] * Steve Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 06 Jun 2001 | I see no reason why you cannot compare the bandwidth and/or space | requirements of digital and analogue recordings. Given that all recordings | are ultimately stored as an analogue form, You are assuming that digital signals are modulated into analog signals for recording, like on your old C64 (which ammounts to recording the noises a telephone modem makes and playing them back later). There is no such modulation involved with digital audio storage. No, I merely refer to the fact that the real world is analogue and that the digital data, though not used to modulate a carrier, are stored as an analogue waveform, which approximates those data. On a CD the laser is reflected off the disc, onto a photodiode which produces four analogue voltages. These are then used to perform tracking and linear speed adjustments, and are also processed to produce the digital data. The signals could just as easily be used to produce an analogue audio signal. [snip] | Of course, the advantage of digital audio is that it is more easily | possible to remove the noise introduced by the medium - albeit at the | expense of adding redundancy and the introduction of quantisation noise - [snip] The advantage of digital audio is that as far as consumers are concerned it does not wear out. No. The advantage of CD and MD against vinyl and tape is that they do not wear out. The fact that the former are digital and the latter analogue is co-incidental. DCC and DAT both wear out yet are digital. Laser discs were entirely analogue and do not. Admittedly, due to the error correction, digital recordings will handle wear better for a while before failing completely where as analogue recordings deteriorate more gradually, but it is the medium that determines whether wear occurs. | - but I am given to understand that, to achieve recording of the same | perceived quality, PCM - whether linear or non-linear | - will require a greater bandwidth than to record directly in analogue. And yet, the fact remains that when analog recordings are made on digital media like Compact Discs, the effective capacity of the media is significantly reduced compared to its equivalent digital counterparts. I'm not sure that I understand the point that you are trying to make here. I've not heard of anyone storing an analogue signal on a CD but, given that a CD provides 74mins of bandwidth at several MHz and you only need 44.1kHz (2 * 22.05kHz channels) to store the analogue signal held on it, you could store around 100 digital CDs on one analogue CD. However, it would be a pig to produce and the play back equipment would be more complex. It would still not wear out, though. Steve. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
Depending on the methode used to store a square wave, you'll need less or more bits. It also depends on the sampling frequentie and the base-frequency of the squarewave. If we are talking about uncompressed audio in a standard format (such as CD) this just does not apply. You can get as technical as you want, but the simple fact remains that if you fill a CD with square waves, round waves, triangle waves, classical, rock, house, or even just blank audio it all takes up the exact same amount of space. Go into Soundforge and make a blank wave file that's 76 minutes long, and then make any other 76 minute wave full of any type of song, or sounds you want. In 44.1 khz, 16-bit they still take up about 650. Chad Gombosi Member SCP www.scponline.net Chad's Game Music Page www.chadsgamemusic.com MP3.com page: www.mp3.com/signofzeta Let me explain a couple of things. Time is short. That's the first thing. For the weasel, Time is a weasel. For the hero, Time is heroic. For the whore, Time is just another trick. If you're gentle, your Time is gentle. If you're in a hurry, Time flies. Time is a servant, if you are its master. Time is your god, if you are its dog. We are the creators of Time, the victims of Time, and the killers of Time. Time is timeless. That's the second thing. You are the clock, Cassiel. Emit - Far Away So Close _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === On 5 Jun 01, 5:46PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: Peter, you have some misinformation yourself, here. * Peter Jaques [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tue, 05 Jun 2001 | for uncompressed 16 bit stereo pcm, you're essentially dealing with a | square wave of 16 bits/channel * 2 channels * 44100 Hz = 1411200 Hz. | that's extremely high to just spit onto what is mechanically no different | from a metal cassette. The highest frequency that 16-bit PCM can achieve is 22.01kHz, and is represented by 16 on bits plus the frame. Those 16 on bits take up exactly the same ammount of space as one frame of dead silence, 16 off bits. Frequency has no direct relevance to how much space is required to store the signal, only resolution of the sampling. i'm not saying that PCM represents an audio frequency of 1411200Hz, i'm saying that in order to represent 22.05kHz, the analog square wave put on tape is 1411200Hz. the square wave is the bits themselves. peter - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
* Peter Jaques [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 06 Jun 2001 | i'm not saying that PCM represents an audio frequency of 1411200Hz, i'm | saying that in order to represent 22.05kHz, the analog square wave put on | tape is 1411200Hz. the square wave is the bits themselves. You are mistaken if you believe that there is a 1,411,200Hz square wave stored on a DAT. All that is there is ones and zeros, which do form a square wave if you treated it as something audible (which it isn't) with an effective frequency some twice that (~2,862,311.5Hz if I did the math right). -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
here's a thought - I dont know, tho A. Maybe the bits are stored on a carrier wave? Like a T1, per se. B. Maybe the bits arent recorded as waves. Just magnetic blips. - Original Message - From: Stainless Steel Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MD-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 8:28 PM Subject: Re: MD: DCC? * Peter Jaques [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 06 Jun 2001 | i'm not saying that PCM represents an audio frequency of 1411200Hz, i'm | saying that in order to represent 22.05kHz, the analog square wave put on | tape is 1411200Hz. the square wave is the bits themselves. You are mistaken if you believe that there is a 1,411,200Hz square wave stored on a DAT. All that is there is ones and zeros, which do form a square wave if you treated it as something audible (which it isn't) with an effective frequency some twice that (~2,862,311.5Hz if I did the math right). -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === So, how about explaining why he is wrong? I mean, it's very easy to say no, nah, ni, but it is a bit more complex to say why. I know the reasons, but I would definitely leave the explaining to an expert. Francisco. - Original Message - From: Stainless Steel Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: MD-L [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 4:30 PM Subject: Re: MD: DCC? * Jacob Alifrangis [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 01 Jun 2001 | Analog is recorded with sine waves, whereas digital is recorded with | square waves, which take up more room. Where did you get that bit of misinformation? | Also, tapes sound better if the tape is moved past the head faster | (lower density). Not for digital media. The capacity of digital media is a function of the size of the read/write heads. For example, DDS-2 is a 120m DAT tape and stores 4GB of data, while DDS-3 is a 125m tape and stores 12GB of data, a three-fold increase. | So there is less available time that the tape has per foot. So the data | is compressed to make it fit. Just... wrong. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
* Francisco J. Huerta [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sat, 02 Jun 2001 | So, how about explaining why he is wrong? I mean, it's very easy to say no, | nah, ni, but it is a bit more complex to say why. I know the reasons, but I | would definitely leave the explaining to an expert. Square waves taking more space. Just plain BS. The shape of a wave has no bearing whatsoever on how much space is required to store it. DDS-2 and DDS-3 (two of the DAT data standards) have nearly identically length tapes (120m vs. 125m), and have the same linear speed over the heads. DDS-3 has three times the storage capacity as DDS-2. Clearly, speed is not a contributing factor to data density. Doesn't require an expert to show that Jacob has a lot of completely bogus information. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
But it sounds good doesn't it. And on an oscilloscope, a 1v pk-to-pk square wave will indeed on average be using up more of the available space than the same pk-to-pk sine wave. Of course if we were to carry that analogy through to its logical conclusion, recording louder music ought to require a greater area of tape to record on also, which we all know it doesnt :o) But I bet I could convince 9 out of 10 peeps by the usual baffle them with bullsh!t approach :o) PrinceGaz. -- An ye harm none, do what ye will From: Stainless Steel Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Francisco J. Huerta [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Sat, 02 Jun 2001 | So, how about explaining why he is wrong? I mean, it's very easy to say no, | nah, ni, but it is a bit more complex to say why. I know the reasons, but I | would definitely leave the explaining to an expert. Square waves taking more space. Just plain BS. The shape of a wave has no bearing whatsoever on how much space is required to store it. DDS-2 and DDS-3 (two of the DAT data standards) have nearly identically length tapes (120m vs. 125m), and have the same linear speed over the heads. DDS-3 has three times the storage capacity as DDS-2. Clearly, speed is not a contributing factor to data density. Doesn't require an expert to show that Jacob has a lot of completely bogus information. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: DCC?
Hello- I know this is the MD list, but I figured some of you probably had DCC players back in the day. In my ever-lasting quest for a recording medium that provides optical/digital out (for transfer to PC/CDR) I have come across a DCC deck. It's going for $50 on ebay right now, and has optical/coax in/out. I also get the feeling that maybe DCC is not compressed sound? Only problem is finding blanks. The guy is giving two blanks with the unit, and I guess I could just recycle, but does anyone know of a place selling blank DCC? Is it worth getting into? The price is right, but do you guys think it's totally a dead medium at this point? - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
Danny-K asked, | I also get the feeling that maybe DCC is not compressed sound? Sorry, but it is compressed (under an algorithm known as PASC). - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: DCC?
DCC Uses PASC a derivitave of mpeg, is lossy, but not more than an mp3. See braindonors.net for more information Blanks are a real pain to find. But DCC deck for 50 isn't bad. It will also spit out the analog tapes with S/PDIF and Coax :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Danny-K Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 6:51 AM To: MD List Subject: MD: DCC? Hello- I know this is the MD list, but I figured some of you probably had DCC players back in the day. In my ever-lasting quest for a recording medium that provides optical/digital out (for transfer to PC/CDR) I have come across a DCC deck. It's going for $50 on ebay right now, and has optical/coax in/out. I also get the feeling that maybe DCC is not compressed sound? Only problem is finding blanks. The guy is giving two blanks with the unit, and I guess I could just recycle, but does anyone know of a place selling blank DCC? Is it worth getting into? The price is right, but do you guys think it's totally a dead medium at this point? - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
David W. Tamkin wrote: Danny-K asked, | I also get the feeling that maybe DCC is not compressed sound? Sorry, but it is compressed (under an algorithm known as PASC). I wonder why they would have to compress it? To me it seems that digital music shouldn't take up more room than analog? Did the DCC offer more music per tape? Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: DCC?
Analog is recorded with sine waves, whereas digital is recorded with square waves, which take up more room. Also, tapes sound better if the tape is moved past the head faster (lower density). So there is less available time that the tape has per foot. So the data is compressed to make it fit. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of las Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 1:36 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: DCC? David W. Tamkin wrote: Danny-K asked, | I also get the feeling that maybe DCC is not compressed sound? Sorry, but it is compressed (under an algorithm known as PASC). I wonder why they would have to compress it? To me it seems that digital music shouldn't take up more room than analog? Did the DCC offer more music per tape? Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: DCC?
* Jacob Alifrangis [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Fri, 01 Jun 2001 | Analog is recorded with sine waves, whereas digital is recorded with | square waves, which take up more room. Where did you get that bit of misinformation? | Also, tapes sound better if the tape is moved past the head faster | (lower density). Not for digital media. The capacity of digital media is a function of the size of the read/write heads. For example, DDS-2 is a 120m DAT tape and stores 4GB of data, while DDS-3 is a 125m tape and stores 12GB of data, a three-fold increase. | So there is less available time that the tape has per foot. So the data | is compressed to make it fit. Just... wrong. -- Rat [EMAIL PROTECTED]\ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be Minion of Nathan - Nathan says Hi! \ returned to its special container and PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ kept under refrigeration. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: DCC?
Analog is recorded with sine waves, whereas digital is recorded with square waves, which take up more room. Also, tapes sound better if the tape is moved past the head faster (lower density). So there is less available time that the tape has per foot. So the data is compressed to make it fit. Wow, a little knowlege is a dangerous thing. That's quite a compact string of misunderstanding there... Chad Gombosi Member SCP www.scponline.net Chad's Game Music Page www.chadsgamemusic.com MP3.com page: www.mp3.com/signofzeta Let me explain a couple of things. Time is short. That's the first thing. For the weasel, Time is a weasel. For the hero, Time is heroic. For the whore, Time is just another trick. If you're gentle, your Time is gentle. If you're in a hurry, Time flies. Time is a servant, if you are its master. Time is your god, if you are its dog. We are the creators of Time, the victims of Time, and the killers of Time. Time is timeless. That's the second thing. You are the clock, Cassiel. Emit - Far Away So Close _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: DCC?
Re DCC decks handling analog tapes ===BEGIN QUOTE It will also spit out the analog tapes with S/PDIF and Coax :) END QUOTE If this is so regarding DCC decks digitizing the signals that come out of analogue cassettes, then this could be good for cassette restoration exercises. If you use a soundcard or USB-SPDIF block that can capture SPDIF signals, you could record a cassette to hard disk as a WAV file using the DCC's on-board A/D process. By containing the analogue process in the DCC deck during this exercise and the fact that DCC decks may digitize post-Dolby or apply the Dolby playback curve using a bit of DSP, there is very little risk of computer interference getting into the playback chain. Then you use a good sound-editor package like SoundForge to treat the sound of the cassette recording that you captured. Here you could do effects like applying frequency filters to the sound to cut out tape hiss or augmenting the sound level to bring-up low-level recordings. Then you export the finished recording to CDR as a Red-Book volume or to MD. With regards, Simon Mackay - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MD: DCC info.
las [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: And compared to the DCC the Md is a huge success. Although it is possible that there is a DCC-list like the MD-list on the net, I kind of doubt it. There was/is a list at http://www.lightlink.com/drogers/DCC-L/ I don't know if it's still active .. anyone care to join it grin. At least we can still buy blanks and there is still the occasional new unit and advance taking place in MDs. The blanks issue is a problem for DCC, although with a drill press and a careful eye/hand, you can turn a normal chrome compact cassette into a DCC. Cheers GuyC - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
