Re: [MBZ] 4-matic repower?
...I also think that is pretty much impossible to retro fit a OM onto the 4matic drive system. The M103 and the 4matic system where pretty much build to fit together like a puzzle... My goodness, even I know that the M103 for 4-matics had a unique oil pan to clear the shafts. Hasn't anybody ever actually looked underneath? Why bother to reegineer two more engines for a low volume application. RLE ** From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom0023) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://okiebenz.com/pipermail/mercedes_okiebenz.com/attachments/20090123/0846f75d/attachment.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 4-matic repower?
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:13 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote: ...I also think that is pretty much impossible to retro fit a OM onto the 4matic drive system. The M103 and the 4matic system where pretty much build to fit together like a puzzle... My goodness, even I know that the M103 for 4-matics had a unique oil pan to clear the shafts. Hasn't anybody ever actually looked underneath? BMW solved that problem on their first 4WD car (the E30 chassis 325iX) by running the halfshaft on one side THROUGH the oil pan, believe it or not. (Hey, at least they didn't put the gearbox in there too like a Mini or Countach.) Alex Chamberlain ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 4-matic repower?
Hi, All. I have a 4-matic picture of the system mated to a 603, from MBZ. If anyone wants a butchers, let me know and I'll send it to them as an attachment. It's probably just one of those We won't make enough sales to justify the cost in the good ole US of A. Most 'mericans are too dumb to know the difference anyway Fred Moir (The cynical) Lynn MA At 03:13 PM 1/23/2009, you wrote: ...I also think that is pretty much impossible to retro fit a OM onto the 4matic drive system. The M103 and the 4matic system where pretty much build to fit together like a puzzle... My goodness, even I know that the M103 for 4-matics had a unique oil pan to clear the shafts. Hasn't anybody ever actually looked underneath? Why bother to reegineer two more engines for a low volume application. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 4-matic repower?
But they already did! Apparently they sold them overseas, just not here. Tyler relng...@aol.com wrote: ...I also think that is pretty much impossible to retro fit a OM onto the 4matic drive system. The M103 and the 4matic system where pretty much build to fit together like a puzzle... My goodness, even I know that the M103 for 4-matics had a unique oil pan to clear the shafts. Hasn't anybody ever actually looked underneath? Why bother to reegineer two more engines for a low volume application. RLE ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 4-matic repower?
Why yes, after I extensively research it, it would appears that a 300D and 300TD where built with a 4matic system. Hendrik who learned yet another thing tyler wrote: But they already did! Apparently they sold them overseas, just not here. Tyler ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] 4-MATIC
I don't know the answer to your question, but I asked my mechanic once about the 4Matic (he had a TD with 4Matic for sale, don't remember what year it was) and his answer was basically this: Like most Mercedes systems, they work well if they are maintained. They don't tolerate neglect very well. I'd say that also if I was trying to bail out of one these money pits. I know a local guy who used to own a very pretty 124 4-matic wagon as a business car and he finally gave up and bought a VW diesel (Jetta, something?) and he was one of many on the other MB lists who had replaced transfer cases because of fluid swaps between the transmissions and transfer cases. It's seal failure and maintenance is not the cause but just a bad design. MB gave up on this design years ago and they have a new design (again) on the '07/'08 cars. RLE ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
Re: [MBZ] 4-MATIC
I've got a 124 4Matic wagon and it's broke. I didn't know when I bought it because the purchase was made in summer on good roads. I didn't know that it was inoperative until the first snow of last winter when my summer tires couldn't keep me going straight. I had new snows put on the car drove like a charm. Since the older 4Matic system was normally RWD, engaging the system at the first signs of wheel slippage, but not in my car, it drove like a normal RWD car with good snow tires. We made it through the winter with no problems at all, plus it was fun to break the rear loose around corners when I wanted by merely applying a little extra throttle upon entry. What joy! I'm told by one former-Benz now indy mechanic that replacing the seals for the first transfer case (which had some seepage upon initial inspection) would be a $500 job. I'm told by another former-Benz now indy mechanic that there is only one shop in North America that can rebuild the tranfer case and it's obviously not cheap. I'm considering merely leaving the car as it is or going the seal replacement route. The only downside to having a RWD 4Matic is the increase fuel consumption, which is horrific compared to my thrifty little VW TDI. Tim 1982 300TD 1991 300TE 4Matic (actually 2Matic) 2000 VW Golf TDI -- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 19:53:03 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MBZ] 4-MATIC To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I don't know the answer to your question, but I asked my mechanic once about the 4Matic (he had a TD with 4Matic for sale, don't remember what year it was) and his answer was basically this: Like most Mercedes systems, they work well if they are maintained.? They don't tolerate neglect very well. I'd say that also if I was trying to bail out of one these money pits. I know a local guy who used to own a very pretty 124 4-matic wagon as a business car and he finally gave up and bought a VW diesel (Jetta, something?) and he was one of many on the other MB lists who had replaced transfer cases because of fluid swaps between the transmissions and transfer cases. It's seal failure and maintenance is not the cause but just a bad design. MB gave up on this design years ago and they have a new design (again) on the '07/'08 cars. RLE
Re: [MBZ] 4-MATIC
On 5/10/07, TimothyPilgrim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm told by one former-Benz now indy mechanic that replacing the seals for the first transfer case (which had some seepage upon initial inspection) would be a $500 job. I'm told by another former-Benz now indy mechanic that there is only one shop in North America that can rebuild the tranfer case and it's obviously not cheap. I'm considering merely leaving the car as it is or going the seal replacement route. The only downside to having a RWD 4Matic is the increase fuel consumption, which is horrific compared to my thrifty little VW TDI. Ugh, that brings back memories. This was exactly the same set of circumstances that lead me to get rid of my E30 BMW 325iX. Once the transfer case runs dry you just have a noisy, heavy RWD car, and rebuilding it or finding a used one is no guarantee that it won't just fail again, thanks to poor design. Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo '93 Isuzu Trooper '86 Lincoln Mark VII LSC
[MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
These are pretty cool, eh? http://www2.lut.fi/~holtta/mb/4matic/ -- Casey Olympia, WA Biodiesel: I drive in a persistent vegetative state '87 300TD intercooler/propane injection #22 (219k) '84 300D (218k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K) http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
These are pretty cool, eh? http://www2.lut.fi/~holtta/mb/4matic/ Yes indeedy. Wonder which item is there to provide the front/rear slip? It wasn't completely obvious to me, but no doubt it has to be there. The page implied that there were 300D/300TD cars available with 4-matic. If there were (here in the US), there'd be at least two of them on our hillside alone. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
On Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:56:45 -0800 Zeitgeist [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are pretty cool, eh? http://www2.lut.fi/~holtta/mb/4matic/ Yes, indeed. They are also pretty complicated -- lots of things to break. Craig
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
On 11/15/06, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: These are pretty cool, eh? http://www2.lut.fi/~holtta/mb/4matic/ Yes indeedy. Wonder which item is there to provide the front/rear slip? It wasn't completely obvious to me, but no doubt it has to be there. Computer-controlled clutches of some kind inside the center differential, making the front/rear torque allotment variable. As Craig points out, this is a far more complicated AWD approach than the ones used at the time by Audi (a simple open differential with manual either-or lockup) and BMW (a heat-sensitive viscous clutch like the ones used on our engine fans). Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo '93 Isuzu Trooper
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
Of course this is MB we are talking about, engineered like no other car. Probably superior in operation but hellishly expensive to fix if it breaks. Don't know wether Rusty stocks too many of these clutches? Hendrik who wonders if other MB all wheel drive systems like the ML and G use the same principles - Original Message - From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato Computer-controlled clutches of some kind inside the center differential, making the front/rear torque allotment variable. As Craig points out, this is a far more complicated AWD approach than the ones used at the time by Audi (a simple open differential with manual either-or lockup) and BMW (a heat-sensitive viscous clutch like the ones used on our engine fans). Alex Chamberlain '87 300D Turbo '93 Isuzu Trooper ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new parts see official list sponsor: http://www.buymbparts.com/ For used parts email [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.6/535 - Release Date: 15/11/2006
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
Computer-controlled clutches of some kind inside the center differential, making the front/rear torque allotment variable. I didn't see anything like a third spider gear set. Maybe just a slip clutch, but it wasn't screamingly obvious to me, who can't read German except Was ist los, Aki? and the like. -- Jim
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
If I understand it correctly, the transfer of power to the front wheels is operated through the ASR system, which may be the same as found on 2wd vehicles. I suspect that if the rear wheels begin to slip, the computer sends hydraulic pressure to bear on the semi-locking rear diff and the transfer case actuator. Dunno for sure. On 11/16/06, Jim Cathey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Computer-controlled clutches of some kind inside the center differential, making the front/rear torque allotment variable. I didn't see anything like a third spider gear set. Maybe just a slip clutch, but it wasn't screamingly obvious to me, who can't read German except Was ist los, Aki? and the like. Casey Olympia, WA Biodiesel: I drive in a persistent vegetative state '87 300TD intercooler/propane injection #22 (219k) '84 300D (218k) Gashuffer: '89 Vanagon Wolfsburg Edition (187K) http://users.zhonka.net/zeitgeist/Misc/IMG_0171.JPG
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
I knew there was a reason I kept subscribing to the digest. Nice find! Tim 1982 300TD Moby (for sale) 1991 300TE 4Matic Beulah - Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 18:56:45 -0800 From: Zeitgeist [EMAIL PROTECTED] These are pretty cool, eh? http://www2.lut.fi/~holtta/mb/4matic/
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
Does anybody know of another resource the accurately explains the operation of the older 4Matic? I've found this one, but it's only a short writeup preceding a detailed explanation of the newer 4Matic system. http://www.whnet.com/4x4/ets.html Tim 1982 300TD Moby (for sale) 1991 300TE 4Matic Beulah -- Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 01:49:53 -0800 From: Alex Chamberlain [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer-controlled clutches of some kind inside the center differential, making the front/rear torque allotment variable. As Craig points out, this is a far more complicated AWD approach than the ones used at the time by Audi (a simple open differential with manual either-or lockup) and BMW (a heat-sensitive viscous clutch like the ones used on our engine fans).
Re: [MBZ] 4-Matic schematics...neato
Jim Cathey wrote: These are pretty cool, eh? http://www2.lut.fi/~holtta/mb/4matic/ Yes indeedy. Wonder which item is there to provide the front/rear slip? It wasn't completely obvious to me, but no doubt it has to be there. The page implied that there were 300D/300TD cars available with 4-matic. If there were (here in the US), there'd be at least two of them on our hillside alone. No 4-matic diesels were officially imported to the US. They were fairly common in Europe. Marshall -- Marshall Booth Ph.D. Ass't Prof. (ret.) Univ of Pittsburgh School of Medicine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
